HomeMy Public PortalAbout07-24-2001 Joint Public Hearing
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JOINT PUBLIC HEARING
July 24, 2001
PRESENT: Mayor Horace Johnson~ Ken Chavious~ Frances Dancy, Evelyn Lloyd, Brian Lowen~ Mark
Sheridan, Ed Gill (PB Chair)~ David Daniel~ Brian Ketchem, Cannie Lloyd, Chris Quinn, Bryant
Warren
STAFF: Demetric Potts~ Nathaniel Eubanks~ Sherry Carter~ Jim Klingler~ Bob Hornik~ Eric Peterson, and
Margaret Hauth
ITEM #1: Mayor Johnson called the hearing to order at 7:02 PM. He noted the first portion ofthe hearing was
on the annexation of a parcel; then a joint hearing with the planning board would convene to consider
the rezoning of that same parcel followed by Hampton Pointe. He asked all speakers to limit
themselves to three minutes. He also noted all speakers related to Hampton point would have to be
sworn m.
ITEM #2: Hauth introduced the satellite annexation request from MF Limited Partnership to annex 28.22 acres
on Orange Grove Road between Interstates 85 and 40. Chris Dunbar spoke on behalf of the
applicants. He gave a briefhistory ofthe family's ownership of this and other properties, described the
site plan for the proposed apartment complex and the highlights of the building elevations. Dunbar
indicated the estimated tax and utility revenues to the town and noted there would be little cost to the
Town to serve this development with water and sewer. Mayor Johnson asked for questions from
Board members. Chavious asked for clarification ofDunbar~s statement that there would be "little
cost" to the Town for utility service to the site. Chavious said it was his understanding there would be
no cost to the Town and Dunbar agreed with Chavious' understanding. Lloyd asked whether this
. development would use the water line in Orange Grove Road. Dunbar said a new line is being run for
the High School down Oakdale Drive and this development would tie into that line. Mayor Johnson
asked whether the development would be attempting to tap the sewer force main. Dunbar said they
would be upgrading the Timbers pump station and gravity flowing into that station. Sheridan asked
whether the traffic study specifically included the impact ofthe new high school. Terry Snow, traffic
engineer for the project, said that they used NCDOT projections to account for the high school. He
noted it would be very difficult to include the school until it is constructed and operating. He added
that the project driveway does not meet NCDOT traffic warrants for a signal.
Nannie Richmond asked how affordable the apartments would be and what the average income of
tenants would be. Dunbar said the rents would be $550 -$650 for one and two bedroom units. Joyce
Ellington said she is a property manager driving from Hillsborough to Raleigh each day. She said
when she first moved here she couldn't find a place to rent. She said there is a rental housing need in
Hillsborough.
Carolyn Welch, Orange Grove Road resident, spoke against the proposal. She said the traffic and
crime in the area has gotten too bad. She said she isn't opposed to growth, but the high school and
Heritage apartments being built it will be too much. She asked whether another apartment complex
was truly needed. Roger Stephens spoke. He said the traffic on Oakdale Drive is poor now and will
get worse with the high school. He said that he is a developer too~ but folks treat projects different
when they live in the community they build in and when they don't.
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Terry Snow provided more information about the traffic study. He said they researched the accident
rate on Orange Grove Road for the last three years and compared with the statewide average. He said
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the road, with their proposed development, would be at or below the state accident average. He
added that the NCDOT projects six percent annual traffic growth for this section. Welch asked when
the traffic count was done. Snow said during May 2000~ they measured the AM and PM peaks on a
Tuesday~ Wednesday, or Thursday because these days are considered "average".
Kathryn Jones spoke against the development. She asked where the driveway access would be.
Dunbar said they can access the site through Colonial Estates and Timbers Mobile Home Park, but
they are looking for direct access to Orange Grove Road across the Cecil property~ if an arrangement
can be made.
Marvin Thomas, Il1anager at Timbers and Colonial Estates spoke. He said he lives on the site and has
not noticed the traffic being mentioned. He said he drives between the two sites daily without trouble.
He noted that many of the existing residents commute great distances and are gone before school
traffic begins. Judy Thomas said she works for the Falks at another site and has not noticed the traffic
concerns mentioned.
ITEM #3: Mayor Johnson closed the annexation public hearing and called to order the joint public hearing. He
passed the gavel to Planning Board Chair Gill. Gill asked speakers to limit themselves to 3 minutes
and encouraged speakers on Hampton Pointe to enter previous comments into the sworn record.
ITEM #4: Hauth introduced the request from MF Limited Partnership to zone 28.22 acres from County R-l to
town Multi-family. Hauth read comments given to her from Donald Tickle ad Kenneth Williams~ both
on Orange Grove Road, and both opposed to the project.
Hauth introduced the rezoning/Master Plan/Special Use Permit application from DIAN TWO to
construct the project now commonly known as Hampton Pointe. She noted this is a two-step process;
first the rezoning, and second the quasi-judicial Special Use Permit Process, which requires sworn
testimony. She said that each speaker would be individually sworn at the podium for clarity.
ITEM #5:
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Gill swore in Dickens. He gave Hauth a box of documents containing all previously submitted
information for the sworn record and asked that previous statements be included with tonight's
comments. He walked through the basic details of the site plan. He said the total building square
footage has been reduced 7% to 470,000 square feet. He noted that the remaining structure, the well
house, would be preserved on-site in it current location. He showed the detailed drawings of the small
shops and park area. He said they are still working on elevation changes for the larger buildings as
well. He said the outparcel uses have not been established. They are hopeful to get a hotel, and office
uses are welcomed. They would also be welcome in the small shops to introduce a mixed-use
component to the site. C Lloyd asked about the previous offer of a police substation. Dickens said
they would provide that at no cost to the town, but the exact location hasn't been set. E Lloyd asked
about the size ofthe station. Dickens said the Chief had indicated an office with bathroo~ about 200
square feet would meet his needs and that's what they are offering. Ketchem asked about item K in
their handout, an excerpt from the ordinance about financial impact to neighboring properties. The
applicants indicate that their site will have a positive influence on neighboring properties. How about
the neighboring properties that want to do mixed use and this site has consumed all the retail demand.
Dickens said he disagrees with the Karnes report limited retail market for Hillsborough. He says that
information does not match with what the national chains are telling them.
Gill swore in Anderson. He read through the chronology of this project and the other handouts they
provided for the members.
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Gill swore in Craig Benedict, County Planning Director. Benedict asked that his previous testimonies
and written comments be added to the sworn record. He noted that this project takes the retail square
footage that was planned to be spread over the entire 800 acres of the Hillsborough EDD. He said the
Board of County Commissioners supports the staff option that indicates a thirty percent reduction in
square footage is possible. He asked the members to consider the health ofthe entire EDD in making
their decision.
Gill swore in Paul Newton, resident of Beckett's Ridge. Newton said approving the Hampton Pointe
plans was the Board's opportunity to improve its reputation with the citizens after raising taxes and
water rates. He asked where is the character of Hills borough, given the existing development near the
interchange. He said character is irrelevant because it's subjective. He noted that Orange County has
a lot to gain (financially) from this project and the Town has a lot to lose. He asked the members to
not follow the wish of the Orange County Commissioners. He asked that his previous testimony also
be included in the sworn record.
Gill swore in Mike Gering. Gering asked that his previous comments be included in the sworn record.
He said he is not opposed to development in general or of this site specifically. He asked the
members not to decide this issue by adding up signatures and speakers on the issue but on the merits.
He said big boxes are not the wave of the future~ but instead~ the past. Gering said he doesn't see that
this plan meets the EDD standards. He asked the members how they could fund the Karnes market
study and then not follow it. He said the staffed scaled-back scenario is still too large in his opinion,
but~ if approved~ Hampton Pointe should be no larger.
Gill swore in AI Stone from Durham. Stone said he is a member of the Duke Homestead
Homeowners Association and had experience with the North Pointe developers during their 4-year
negotiation in Durham. He noted the projects are rougWy the same size~ although North Pointe is a
larger site. He said the neighbors and developers could get along~ as they did in Durham. He said
everything has turned out OK in Durham.
Gill swore in Linda Dawson. She quoted the Economic Development Commission~s "Shop Orange
First" campaign. She said she would if she could. She said AIamance County is getting all the
growth. She stressed the need for teen employment also. She said the traffic in the area won't be as
bad as expected~ shoppers will use the interstate. She noted the Historic District would not be
damaged by the development either.
Gill swore in Juanita Diggs~ Wildwood resident. She expressed concern about traffic on NC 86. She
said there are no plans to widen the road below the railroad trestle and turning traffic for Wildwood
and Beckett's Ridge is already difficult. She asked what would happen in five years when the tenants
relocate.
Gill sw6re in Danny Lloyd. He said the Chamber Board supports the approval of this development.
He noted that it adds revenue without adding school children. He said it would also generate more
jobs and more revenue staying in the area. He added that the Chamber still supports the downtown
and the improvements proposed there. Lloyd said the developers have offered some changes.
Gill swore in Amy Mollie Langston. She thanked the board for the new regulations that apply to this
property~ but its not enough. She said she is not opposed to increased revenues or increased jobs. She
said the town needs sustainable growth and this is not sustainable.
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Gill swore in Frank Freeman. He said this development would not impact the Historic District. He
added that the downtown businesses would survive and no businesses desire special protection. He
said restoring the houses in the district requires the materials that would be sold on this site and
currently have to be bought out of town. He noted that the big box shape seems to work well for
buildings and the concerns about this project are aesthetic arrogance.
Gill swore in Jeanette Wagoner, 109 Collins Ave. She asked the members to give the application
favorable consideration. She said it would provide sorely needed reliefto those who find it hard to
shop outside of town. She said she is tired to driving everywhere for everything. She said
Hillsborough needs more jobs. She asked the members to consider what is best for the citizens; food,
clothing~ and shelter before traffic, design, and parks.
Gill swore in Betsy Tilley, Orange High School Rd. She asked the members to give the application
favorable consideration. She said it provides tax base without school students. Hillsborough needs
sales tax revenue and jobs.
Gill swore in Joe Griffin~ life-long resident. He said Hillsborough needs the tax base.
Gill swore in Matthew Farrelly. He said the flyer quotes opponents as being focused on aesthetics.
He said he is concerned about the size and the impact on existing businesses. He quoted a study from
Iowa that states 84% of big box business is drawn from existing businesses, so those existing
businesses will be damaged. He added that national chains don't use local businesses like banks for
their needs. He asked the members to consider the net benefits~ not gross benefits.
Gill swore in Rachel Royce. She spoke in favor of redevelopments underway like Southern Season,
Weaver Street~ and the Colonial. In light of these, she asked why the board was considering a
development that doesn~t meet the ordinance or plan. The developers have offered no meaningful
changes to the plans. She said she could support developments that provided new or different
services~ which had buildings smaller than 65,000 square feet and met zoning requirements. She said
developers need to work with the needs of the community.
Sharon Schiro was the next signed speaker, but she was not present.
Gill swore in Russell Knop. He said he is not opposed to development; he likes the Limited Office
district. His seven concerns are traffic safety~ water run-off (this is the third new project)~ school
safety (traffic)~ railroad bridge bottleneck, traffic generated by future transit station, five-fold traffic
increase noted by the study~ and the insufficient current road network.
Gill swore in Allan Gurganus. He offered a future vision ofthe drive to 1-40 when Wal-mart will be
vacant and that decay will spread. He expressed his concern that this center will follow the New Hope
Commons model where you must drive from store to store. He expressed concern for the retail
employees. He asked the members to scale the development back.
Gill swore in Mary Ann Peter. She said the Board was wise to adopt the EDD guidelines~ secure the
Kames report~ and hold the public hearings. She and her husband have been watching the growth in
Durham and Hillsborough for thirty years. She noted that Hillsborough is not Durham. She said a
win-win solution is needed; where you use objective criteria and inventive options. She said the
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proposal does not meet the criteria and staffs have presented two alternatives. She noted that the
Kames report lists the total retail square footage in Hillsborough as 380,000. This development is
460,000 square feet, more than double what exists. She compared this development to New Hope
Commons and its traffic woes. She asked the members to consider finding incentives to redevelop
existing commercial sites.
Gill swore in Richard Simpson. He said traffic issues are here to stay. He had to work outside
Hillsborough for 37 years because there weren't any opportunities here. He said no one could predict
the future. He asked the members to support anything that generates
Gill swore in AI Hartkopf. He said he understands that the Boards' decision is between Hampton
Pointe and the proposal at 1-40; that both can't be approved. He expressed his preference for
Hampton Pointe over the other proposal. He asked the members to move with caution, though not
necessarily slow.
Beth Kelly and Jim Grossnickle were the next signed speakers~ but they didn~t offer any comments.
Gill swore in Paul Mitchell. He referred to the Hampton Pointe flyer and took offense to being
classified as "a vocal minority that works against change." He said his is not a vocal minority who
works for developers. He cautioned against this development. He noted that 23~OOO more vehicles
couldn't come through town. He expressed his general support for growth. He said he supports the
Weaver Street proposal and similar redevelopments.
Gill swore in Hazel Lunsford, neighboring owner. She said no one has expressed any concern about
the three residences immediately adjacent to the site. She says she has to live with the traffic. She
expressed concern about the appearance, noting she doesn~t want to look onto the backyard ofthe
development. She expressed concern about lighting and water run-off that might impact her well. She
said the neighbors aren't invisible.
Gill swore in Nannie Richmond. She said she lives in the Historic District. Current taxes and water
rates hurt. She said she is tired of driving to shop. Hillsborough needs more shopping and more jobs
for young people.
Gill swore in Wes Cook. He noted his a county resident who owns property in the Historic District.
He thanked everyone for their work on this project. He said Anderson and Dickens are local
developers; Durham is local. He said the development would help the current financial problems of
the town.
Gill swore in Dani Black. She also noted her offense to the "vocal minority" phrase in the Hampton
Pointe flyer. She noted that the Chamber of Commerce did not get the opinions of its members when
it endorsed this project. She noted the drawing in the Hampton Pointe flyer the focuses on the small
shops is not an accurate representation of the development. She said there are current office and retail
vacancies in town that need to be filled rather than building more space. She said Hampton Pointe is
not wise progress and not smart change.
Gill swore in Janie Endres. She said Hampton Pointe would cost more than its benefit in the long run
She said she lives in the Historic District because its convenient and it's a neighborhood. She sad her
family struggles financially; but she is more concerned about the community than her pocketbook. She
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gave an example of Charleston, WV. When the first enclosed mall was built, it killed downtown. That
mall was later destroyed when a big box center was built. She added that she does not enjoy
shopping.
Gill swore in Jennifer Mitchell~ Wildwood resident. She thanked the members for the public hearing.
She said she understands this from a business perspective; everyday of delay costs money. She said
relief is needed for water bills, especially out of town bills. She said she has seen worse traffic in other
areas of the country. This development won't hurt downtown; downtown has other problems that
have other solutions. She encouraged the members to investigate other solutions to lower rents and
increase foot traffic downtown.
Gill swore in Robin Standt, county resident and property owner. She said Hillsborough is stifling
county residents by not allowing development. She says she drives right through or by Hillsborough
and doesn~t stop to shop here because there isn't anything here that she needs.
Donna Reist was the next signed speaker, but she was not present.
Gill swore in Craufurd Goodwin. He encouraged the members to look for a compromise solution. He
said the staff scenario is still large at 300~OOO square feet and still has two big boxes~ but it limits the
risk to the Town have having hulking vacancies if they would move out.
Gill swore in Deborah White. She said a lot of work has been done, but the current plan is still too
large. She encouraged the members to keep asking for more.
Gill swore in Jim Hopper, site owner. He asked that his previous testimony and written materials
(including petitions) be entered into the sworn record. He said vacant buildings aren~t the Town's
concern. They are opportunities. Ifthey are vacant~ that's the owner~ s risk. He asked the members to
consider human need rather than human scale.
Gill swore in Dave Heilman. He said he has been a resident for a year~ and hopes to be here in 30
years. He said shopping in Durham is more convenient that Hillsborough right now. He noted his
concern for the transit stop, since most public transit systems are not self-supporting.
Louise Long, Sara English, and Jonathan English were the next signed speakers, but they offered no
comments.
Gill swore in Jack Smyre. He spoke about the rezoning process requirements. He noted that the
applicant has the burden to show that a rezoning request complies with the Plan, or there has been a
change in neighborhood conditions, or that there was a manifest error when the site was zoned to
successfully be rezoned. He said this applicant has not provided that proof. He asked the members to
search for a compromise because viable retail space is a limited commodity. He added that he is not
opposed to development on this site.
Gill swore in Holden Richards. He said the proposal is not in scale with this small town. He said that
ifWal-mart moves from their current site to this one, that's not new jobs, just a transfer. He said he is
not opposed to Hampton Pointe~ just the current option. He said he supports mixed use and office
jobs that provide jobs that support a family, not just teenagers. He reminded the members they have
the EDD guidelines~ the Vision 2010, and the Kames report; heed them.
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Gill swore in Peter Langon, Wildwood resident. He said he hates "progress" the way the developers
want it. He asked the members to four-lane 86 if you are going to do anything. He said the project is
too big and ifit goes through, he's getting out.
Anderson spoke in response to some comments. He said the plan meets the general conditions in the
ordinance and referred to the evening~s handout that covers it point by point. As for impact on the
Historic District~ New Bern has both. They have a downtown historic district and retail centers
outside developed under less stringent guidelines. Its not an either or situation. The seven percent
square footage reduction is what they can financially offer. There are $1 million in off-site
improvements and $750~OOO for the small shops area. There will not be 23~OOO more vehicle trips~
8~000 already exist on the roa.d. This area was never zoned EDD, its close~ but not in. The Town's
consulting engineer has accepted the stormwater design plans. Dickens apologized to Lunsford for
not meeting with her personally before now. He described the plans to her, what her view would be~
and noted that the stormwater would not flow onto her site. He added that he and Anderson are here
to do a good job and that if the site is empty in three years; they will still have mortgage payments to
make.
Gill returned the gavel to Mayor Johnson, who closed the public hearing and adjourned the meeting at
10:30 PM.
Respectfully submitted,
~~r-'t-,A
garet A. Hauth, Secretary
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