Loading...
HomeMy Public PortalAbout20060516_PCMinutes 1 MINUTES Planning Commission Meeting May 16, 2006 – 7:00 p.m. Planning Commission Members present at the meeting on May 16, 2006 were: Barry Brown, Sandy Chandler, Bill Garbett, Honor Hutton, Gene Kindrick, Rachel Perkins, Chuck Powell, and Lawanna Tsoulos. Susan Hill was absent. Building and Zoning staff present: Dee Anderson, Warren Millikan and Dianne Otto. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos called the meeting to order. Gene Kindrick motioned to approve the Minutes from the April 10th Agenda Meeting. Chuck Powell seconded the motion. The vote was unanimous. Chuck Powell motioned to approve the Minutes from the April 18th Meeting. Gene Kindrick seconded the motion. The vote was unanimous. Ron Jacobs presented a Zoning Variance petition for owner Gilda DeMott at 606 Miller Avenue, PIN 4- 0005-13-003, Zone R-1. Jacobs said they are petitioning to fill in about 150 square feet of a drainage ditch. He said they currently have a building permit and are under construction for a single family residence. He said Ms. DeMott is concerned about the drainage ditch breeding mosquitoes and being a danger for grandkids. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos asked if there were any questions from the Planning Commission for Jacobs. Bill Garbett asked how Jacobs calculated the area of the wetlands; according to the plat the wetlands, delineated February 10, 2006, occupy about one-quarter of the lot. Jacobs said the area was calculated by EMC Engineers as .04 acres and it did not meet the Corp of Engineers threshold. Jacobs said they are not talking about filling that area; they are just talking about filling the ditch area. Garbett said it did not meet the threshold in terms of size but it met the definition of a wetland. Jacobs said that was right and the Corp said it was okay to fill in the ditch area. Garbett said the Corp said he needed to come to the City. Jacobs said that was exactly what they said. Garbett said the acreage is below the threshold for a nationwide permit but it is not below the threshold for the City of Tybee. He asked Dee Anderson if that was true. Anderson said the wetlands ordinance was adopted last year and this is the first person asking to do anything with it. He said they have been meeting with the builder and the engineer because they have conflicting plans addressing the size of the house that was approved. Garbett asked where the wetland was on the lot. Jacobs said the wetland boundary is defined on the plat. Garbett asked if it had been filled in. Jacobs said no, it has not. He said they have a house under construction in that area and they are talking about filling in the ditch in the right rear which is the area outlined in green on the plat. Rachel Perkins asked Jacobs if he was building a house in a designated wetland. Jacobs said that was correct. Perkins asked Jacobs if he had a piece of paper from the City of Tybee that permits that. Jacobs said he has the building permit; this plat was submitted to Tybee and that is what has been approved. Sandy Chandler asked if the area outlined in yellow was the flagged wetland. Jacobs said that was correct, the ditch. Chandler asked if it was about 15 feet long. Jacobs said yes, it is about 5 or 8 feet wide by 15 feet long. Garbett told Chandler that the area in yellow has already been filled in. Chandler asked if that was by Jacobs. Garbett said yes. Chuck Powell said when he visited the site that appeared to be the case. Jacobs said they have had equipment going across there to pull trees out but there has been no additional fill brought into that area. Gene Kindrick said all the surrounding lots coming from Sixth and from Jones seem to drain to that one point. Jacobs said they do. Kindrick asked as you go south, does that drain back in there. Jacobs said yes, there is an inlet on the adjacent property where everything drains which goes into the storm system. Garbett said it does not go anywhere anymore. Jacobs said according to Public Works it does. Powell asked Anderson if Jacobs fills in the remaining part would it cause the adjacent properties to flood, and is it the City’s responsibility to reopen it if it is not draining correctly. Anderson said Jacobs has an engineered drainage plan that was approved for this lot. He said the engineer can address whether the plan called for filling the ditch. Anderson said Jacobs would have to revise his drainage plan since the ditch was to remain. Barry Brown asked if it was possible to put a culvert pipe with a catch basin to let the water continue its path. Jacobs said sure. Brown asked Jacobs who was doing the drainage. Jacobs said Mark Boswell. Brown asked Boswell if it would work to put a culvert pipe because neighbors need to continue to drain into that area. Boswell said he would have to recalculate that. He said he and Downer Davis talked about that and agreed to not touch the wetlands. Boswell said apparently he has a different house plan on his drainage drawings than what Jacobs got his building permit with. He said he could not answer Brown’s question without looking at it. Brown asked Jacobs what was the difference on the house plans. Jacobs said what was submitted to Tybee and approved was what they are building. Brown asked Boswell if his drainage 2 calculations go to a different house plan. Boswell said it was a different footprint. Anderson said they will be addressing that before they go any further; it just came to their attention that there were conflicting plans. Boswell said one thing they did do to make the drainage work was: there is an inlet by Miller that is basically not draining anything because it is higher than the ground around it so they lowered that inlet 6 inches to help the drainage up and down the street. He said he did not know if they could get another inlet or pipe into that system or not. Brown and Boswell discussed elevations. Boswell said he would have to look at it. Garbett asked Jacobs if he had any proposals for any sort of mitigation if he does destroy this wetland. Jacobs said he had a conversation with Mark Padgett of the Corp of Engineers and he said there was no mitigation required. Garbett told Jacobs that the Corp would not require it but it appears that he filled an existing wetland without a permit and now is requesting a permit after the fact. He asked Jacobs if he was willing to come up with a mitigation plan. Jacobs said sure, he would be willing to take a look at it but they submitted the plan and it was approved by the City of Tybee. Brown said Jacobs has a permit to build the house. He said his land is existing so Jacobs has a vested interest. Brown asked what Jacobs did not have a permit for. Garbett said Jacobs did not have a permit to fill in the wetlands when he built the house. Brown said this Site Plan should stand for itself. He asked if it was fresh water wetlands. Jacobs said yes. Tsoulos asked Jacobs if he built but did not fill. Jacobs said that was correct. He said they have to fill where the footprint of the house is for the concrete slab under the house but they have not done that; they have not poured the slab yet. He said all they are trying to do is fill the ditch in the back which is about 150 square feet. Tsoulos asked Jacobs if at some point in time it would be necessary to put some fill where the pilings are now. Jacobs said yes, under the footprint of the house they have to do that to pour the slab. Perkins asked if it was possible to build houses without slabs. Jacobs said yes. Perkins asked if Jacobs would not necessarily have to pour a slab. Jacobs said they have a permit to do so and plan on it. Perkins said to Jacobs that he has a permit to build on a slab in a wetland. Jacobs said they submitted the plans and they were approved. Powell asked if they had correspondence from the Corp of Engineers on this. Jacobs said there was a letter between EMC Engineers and the Corp of Engineers. The Commissioners looked at the letter in their packet from EMC to the Corp. Brown asked Jacobs if he presented the site plan with the house plans as a package to get a permit. Jacobs said yes he did. Brown asked Jacobs if he now wanted to do this ditch. Brown asked where the wetland was when Jacobs applied for the building permit. Jacobs said it was on the site plan. Anderson said there are two different site plans; one from October of 2005 and the drainage plan from Boswell from February of 2006 which shows a considerably smaller house. He said staff will have to work out what can and can not be done; the permit was issued in error based on two different site plans. Brown said this is something we may want to table. Tsoulos said we need to continue with the Public Hearing. She asked if there was anyone in the audience that wanted to speak in favor or in opposition. Tsoulos closed the Public Hearing. Brown motioned to table until staff can work out the issues with the two different houses that were submitted. Gene Kindrick seconded. Brown said Boswell will have to redo the calculations. Perkins said the posts are set but the house is not built yet. Tsoulos asked if they were going to continue building. Anderson said no. The vote to table was unanimous. Sam Liberti presented a Zoning Variance petition for Frank and Kim Nelson at 1409 Chatham Avenue, Zone R-2, PIN 4-0011-09005. The request was for a 10.6-foot front setback rather than 20 feet. Liberti said the house was originally built in 1940 and there have been several alterations. Liberti said the Nelson’s bought the house earlier last year and saw that the house would not conform to their lifestyle. He said the Nelsons found someone that would buy the house and move it to another location. Liberti said according to the Ordinance they thought they could put another house in almost the exact footprint. He said they are only asking for the stoop and front entry, 84 square feet; the balance of the house is in the setback. Tsoulos asked the Commissioners if they had any questions. Sandy Chandler said, aside from garages, that building would be the only one that would come that close to the street. Liberti said that is correct, but according to Ordinance it states structures. He said Tybee Island can give up to 10 feet. He said they are asking for a cubicle of 84 square feet. Honor Hutton asked Liberti if they could move the house further back on the property. Liberti said they are taking the swimming pool out of the equation at this point because they are waiting on a ruling but they would rather not move the house back in case they are allowed to put a pool; they do not want to reduce the area. He said the house is pretty close to the original footprint. Hutton said the Planning Commission is here to grant Variances for hardships and the Nelsons have room at the back of the property. Liberti said if they had left the house they could have built the house back in the same footprint. He said the homeowner hastily sold the house. Liberti said he was going by the Ordinance so he designed the house almost on the exact 3 footprint thinking that they could go back and do that and then he was told that the house should not have been moved but that was not explained when they did that. Bill Garbett said he does not see the hardship. Liberti asked Garbett what was the hardships for the granting of the other variances of the other structures outside the 20-foot setback. He said all they are asking for is the chance to align the houses. Liberti said, yes, they could go back inside the 20-foot setback, yes, they could push the house all the way back to the 10-foot rear setback, but they are trying to keep everything in line, utilize the land and put a nicer structure and beautify Tybee. He said that is their hardship. Liberti said they are asking the Planning Commission to at least allow them to build outside in those 84 square feet. Brown asked about a storage building and carport that was setting on the property line. Liberti said they are gone, and the steps of the house were about 3 feet from the street because there was just a single car parking pad. Brown asked if they were putting them back. Liberti said no, they are going to have parking under the house. Brown asked Anderson how old that house was. Anderson said he did not know. Anderson read a clause put in the Land Development Code in April 2005 in Section 3-020, Continuance of Nonconforming Uses or Structures. Brown said this house is going back in somewhat the same footprint. Perkins asked if it was a new house. Liberti said yes, and because the space that was beneath it was habitable space, but according to FEMA it did not meet that, so they could not retrofit the house, so they lost 50% of the habitable space so the client decided to sell the house, move it, and build a new structure. Perkins said it is hard for her to vote on plans when there is something on there that they do not need. Liberti said the client wishes to have a pool and when the client tells him they want a pool he can not tell them they do not need a pool so he has to show it on the plan. Liberti said he is trying to help the client and asking for what they may see, working within the Ordinances. Perkins said the client is hopefully aware that there is a 25-foot buffer zone. Liberti said not that he is aware of. He said it is not marshland; it is a bulkhead and deep water and there is no vegetation. Perkins said there is marsh vegetation in the corner. Liberti asked how you pour a concrete bulkhead when you have marsh vegetation. Perkins said the soil behind the bulkhead supports wetland vegetation. Liberti asked if that could have been germinated through winds. He said they did not consider that to be a vegetated marshland. Anderson said that at the Agenda Meeting he was requested to find out about the 25-foot buffer. Anderson said he spoke with Bruce Boise with the Environmental Protection Division last week and Boise called yesterday to say they were stumped. Anderson said staff has taken pictures of the area and forwarded them to EPD in Brunswick. He said EPD will have a ruling in two weeks as to whether or not there is a 25-foot buffer from the bulkhead. Tsoulos clarified that the reason the pool was pulled was because there will be a decision made by the EPD. Brown said the pool has nothing to do with the footprint of this house being put back the way it was. Brown said it is actually not going out as far as before. Liberti said that was correct. Tsoulos asked Anderson if what Liberti wants to do meets the requirements that Anderson had read. Anderson said this is the first occurrence that it may apply to. Brown said Council approved them moving this cottage. He said if they had torn the house down they could have built back in the same footprint. Perkins asked how many stories the house would be. Liberti said two habitable floors above parking. Tsoulos asked if there was anyone wishing to speak in favor or in opposition. She closed the Public Hearing. Perkins motioned to approve. Brown seconded. Perkins said if the two structures on either side were just carports it would be a different story. She said she is not approving the pool even though it is on the paper she is looking at. The vote was five in favor with Hutton and Garbett voting in opposition. The motion to approve carried. Tsoulos told Liberti it would go before City Council on June 8. Ron Jacobs represented a Zoning Variance petition for Lot 12 North Wave Subdivision, Zone R-2, PIN 4- 0022-01-031. The request was for 5-foot into the front setback and 15-feet into the 25-foot buffer. Chuck Powell read into the minutes a letter from the North Wave Homeowners Association encouraging approval. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos said the letter was received by all Planning Commission Members. Jacobs said he was representing Steve and Judy Sims. He said they submitted a plan a couple of months ago to build a 2,500 square feet home. He said that plan was supposed to be built adjacent to the marshland line and was denied by Council. He said they have revised the plan and reduced the size of the structure to about 1,600 square feet, which is the absolute minimum that North Wave allows. Jacobs said they are asking for a 5-foot front setback encroachment and a 15-foot DNR buffer encroachment. Steve Sims said they had planned to do the building three years prior but had some serious family illnesses. Sims said they have gone through the different agencies over the past two or three years and have adjusted their plans every time. He said they had verbal EPD approval to build in the setback, as had been granted to other houses in the area, and all they had to do was send it in. He said they sent it in and after 5 months had not received an answer. Sims said when it came back there 4 was a new approval process and that it had to go to Tybee. Sims said when City Council said they did not want it in the buffer that far they decided to bring down the size of the house and move everything forward. He said the Homeowners Association was kind enough to give them a variance and they may build a 1,600 square foot home even though the requirement now is 2,000 square feet; the Homeowners Association let them be grandfathered in. Sims said they also got the 5-foot front setback approved by the Homeowners Association. Sims said they are asking for less than what they had approved in March. He said they are down as far as they can go. Rachel Perkins said the plan at the Agenda Meeting had a 10-foot encroachment and the revised has a 15-foot encroachment. Sims said it was a typo; it had always been 15-feet. Bill Garbett said the application noted that the foundation would be treated wood pilings. He asked if they would be excavating or filling. Sims said they have no intentions of excavating or filling. He said they will drive the pilings and put down pervious pavers. Garbett said the drawing says no impervious materials would be used in the buffer, but they are going to need a roof. Sims said you are right; there will be a roof on the house. Tsoulos asked if there was anyone in the audience to speak in favor or in opposition. Joe Craft said he lives in North Wave Subdivision and encourages the Planning Commission to approve the variance. He said they have a beautiful marshland and he was sure the Sims were going to take care of it. Keith Gay said he is also a homeowner at North Wave. He said this meets all the criteria that is required for a hardship variance. Gay said the Sims have been asked to do more than a fair share of concession in order for them to build the home that they committed to over seven years ago. Gay said the Sims have been impacted by things that really were not in their control. Gay said there are only two other lots that are going to be built in this subdivision. He said all of them are with bulkheads and all comply with the requirements that were set up originally. Gay said it is a fair and equitable approach, and encouraged the Planning Commission to approve it. Barry Brown asked Jacobs if they were going to continue the bulkhead. Jacobs said yes. Brown asked on which line. Jacobs said beside the marsh line. He said that was one of the conditions from the previous Planning Commission meeting: pervious pavers, eco-friendly pilings and a bulkhead. Garbett said the bulkhead is just a further disturbance in there. Tsoulos said that was their recommendation last time. Brown said it should have been put there years ago. Tsoulos closed the Hearing. Garbett moved to approve. Brown seconded. Perkins said she would like to see a compromise. She said there is a hardship. She said she would like to see it be fifty-fifty: 10 feet into the marsh buffer and 10 feet into the front yard encroachment. Garbett said he was satisfied with the plan and he would leave the motion as it is. Perkins said there is a meeting tomorrow with DNR about 25-foot buffer impacts. She said she wished they had that meeting before this came up. Garbett said City Council will have had that meeting. Perkins said there does appear to be a significant tree that would need to be mitigated. Tsoulos said that would be taken care of at the staff level. The vote was six in favor with Perkins opposed. Tsoulos said they would go before City Council on June 8. Bobby Chu and Tom Waters represented a Major Subdivision of Land and Variance from Section 10- 080(E) of Land Development Code, Street Design and Construction Specifications, for Robert Chu at Eighth Street and Butler Avenue, Zone R-2, PIN 4-0005-20-006. Dee Anderson said this was sketch plan only. Chu said originally they had submitted 16 lots, but since then they reduced it to 14 buildable lots. He said there are two pieces of property on this plat: lot 47 and lot 46. He said if they were to do one lot at a time they would meet all of the requirements as far as a 40-foot setback. Chu said since they decided to do both lots they fall under the new Ordinance which requires a 60-foot setback, which is the width of Butler Avenue. Chu said this is a private street, not a public street. He said they could come back 35 feet and save the majority of the oak trees. He said the street is 27-feet wide. He said everything would be porous pavers; the only concrete would be the foundations. Chu said that because they are going to take a few of the oak trees out they plan to plant 5-inch live oaks. He said there would be sixteen of them at a total value of $30,000. Chu explained that the two lots on the ocean would be duplexes and the other lots would be single-family. Chu referred to a letter the Commissioners received from the Tybee Island Fire Chief. Perkins asked if the existing house fit in lot 7. Chu explained that Tony Abbot would take the house and restore it to its original condition. Perkins asked how they are going to remove the house without impacting the trees. Chu said they are looking at cutting the house in half; that is how bad Abbott wants it. Perkins suggested leaving the house where it is. Chu described the subdivision. Sandy Chandler asked if the house was on lot 7. Chu said it straddles lots 6 and 7. Chu said they are going to have to move the street because in the front entrance there is a 36-inch live oak that has an elbow out. Chu said it is really a 50-foot easement. Chandler asked if the T-road was the berm of the old roadbed. Chu said it was the 20-foot easement the City put in. He said they combined the 20-feet 5 and 20-additional feet to make a 40-foot easement. Chandler asked if there was egress. Chu said no, it was strictly a sewage easement. Barry Brown and Chu discussed a misprint on the drawing for lots 14 and 15. Perkins clarified that this was a sketch plan. Chu said yes. He said all of the water will be retained on the property. Perkins and Chu discussed tress. Perkins said when she looks at the potential house going into lot 15 it looks like it could be an 1,800 square foot footprint, but that is not guaranteed by the Tree Ordinance. Tsoulos asked if anyone in the audience wished to speak in favor or in opposition. Leon Aronson said he lives on Eighth Street. He said replacing 100-year old trees with 5-inch tree is not an even swap. He asked who dictates which trees will be spared. Perkins said that was part of the subdivision process. Aronson said there are specific trees there that have so much character and he said he did not understand the swap off. Perkins said the tree can not be taken down unless there is no feasible alternative and a smaller house is a feasible alternative. Aronson asked if they would be clearing the land any closer to the ocean. Chu said no. He said Ann Thran gave them the DNR jurisdiction line so they could find the toe of the dune. He said the dunes, of course, would not be touched. Tsoulos told Aronson there are guidelines. She said this is a sketch plan and Chu will have to address many other issues later. Honor Hutton read the Ordinance that says that subdivisions may not be staggered. Chu said there is a way around it: if one corporation owns one, another corporation the other, and one develops and the other waits three or four years. Cullen Chambers, Tybee Island Historical Society, said if there was ever a piece of property and a historic structure that cried out to be left as it is, this would have been the property. He said it is a historic raised summer cottage built equidistant between Butler Avenue, the old railway route and the ocean. Chambers said Tybee is changing. He asked that anyone else who has this significant type of property contact the Tybee Island Historical Society. Chambers said he could not say that they could have afforded this purchase price but at least they would like the opportunity to consider it to save part of Tybee’s heritage for future generations. Chambers commended Chu for working diligently to save historic structures rather than tearing them down. He said Chu is one of the few developers on the island that has gone the extra mile in order to save something, and that is better than nothing. Chambers said from a historic preservation standpoint he has tried to visualize how the house can be moved through the tree line without damaging significant trees and making it cost effective to save something of that house. Chambers said his concern is a plan B should they not realistically move that house. Frank Seiler asked Chu if he knew what oak trees he plans to take down. Chu said it is part of a process and is going to take more than one meeting with an arborist. He said they will look at which ones are diseased; there is a bay tree that is dead and two oak trees that probably can not be revived. He said they are going to try to preserve the majority of it. Seiler said their cottage is on the corner of Eighth and Butler. He said they are very happy there and intend to stay there as long as they can. Seiler said he is extremely interested in the grove of oak trees. He said one of them is huge and overhangs his lot and furnishes great shade. He said he has had the trees looked at and knows which ones are diseased and which ones are not. Seiler said what he does not want to happen is the lots be developed one at a time until Chu gets up to Butler and there goes the grove of oak trees. Chu said he is going to own lot 15 personally. Tom Waters distributed a tree survey. Chu said with taking lot 15 out of the equation there should not be more than one or two trees that might have to come down. Tsoulos said she was letting the tree discussion go on but it really was not before them tonight. Tsoulos closed the Hearing. Gene Kindrick motioned to approve. Sandy Chandler seconded. Perkins asked if this was conceptual and later they would have the actual site plan. Chu said that was correct. He said the actual plans will show drainage, Tybee jurisdiction line, DNR jurisdiction line, elevation, water retention. Perkins said it would thrill her for the plan to show the house moved over to lot 7. The vote to approve was six in favor with Hutton opposed. Tsoulos told Chu he would come before City Council on June the 8th. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos opened the Public Hearing for Site Plan Approval at 1605 Inlet Avenue, Phil O’Dell, Zone C-1, PIN 4-0008-17-001. Anderson said he spoke to O’Dell who is in Florida and his plans have been submitted by his engineer. Anderson said Downer Davis has been in touch with the engineer to get everything worked out. He said the driveway was removed as requested. Chuck Powell asked if it was within their jurisdiction to recommend to City Council that if O’Dell does not act with 30 days he must remove the structure. Anderson said O’Dell was waiting for his engineering which was completed last week. He said the City’s engineer has reviewed it. Bill Garbett asked what use this building was going to serve. Anderson said a walkup restaurant. Rachel Perkins asked if the engineer was at the meeting. Anderson said no. Perkins said the packet did not show what the drainage plan is going to look like. Anderson said it has a retention pond and that was why Davis recommended vegetation. Barry Brown says it shows swales dropping in grade. Powell said he did not think Anderson represents O’Dell in this 6 Hearing. He said he did not think they could have a Hearing and asked how long do they let this go on. Sandy Chandler said he had a concern that there is a substantial roof not included on the footprint. He said at the angle the building is setting the roof might come over the setback line. Anderson said there are no setback lines because this is commercial. Garbett said the roof does overhang the footprint by 2 feet but if it is drawn correctly it appears to fit within the property line. Tsoulos asked if there was anyone in the audience to speak in favor of or in opposition. Keith Gay said he was not there on behalf of O’Dell. Gay said he spoke with O’Dell who was surprised Davis was requiring a holding pond for the drainage given that the drainage issues that are there were there long before the building came in. Gay said when this building was sitting on the property that he purchased there was a lot of feedback from people wanting to make sure the building was not torn down. Gay said he knew there have been delays and considerations but it is a perfect use of the building in that location: it is walkup traffic and the kind of thing they have been trying to do in terms of development. He said he thinks it is an appropriate use in that location and he would be disappointed if it was not approved. Anderson said Davis was here if anybody had any questions on drainage. Perkins asked about the retention pond. Davis said they proposed a retention area 2 to 2-1/2 feet deep. He said when they sized that they were looking at over twice the impervious area because of the driveway. Davis said without the driveway the retention area does not need to be that big. Perkins said she would like to see it wider and shallower; she is worried about children falling in. Davis said it can be a risk. Davis said he asked them to look at groundcover in the event of a torrential downpour. He said that because of the percolation it was an excellent place for a retention basin. He said he is looking at appropriate ground cover to reduce mosquitoes and gnats. Davis said they have addressed storm water retention. Davis said O’Dell’s engineer had no problems with his comments. Tsoulos closed the Public Hearing. Perkins moved to approve. Garbett seconded. The vote was six in favor with Powell opposed. Tsoulos said the petition would go before City Council on June 8. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos said next Henry Levy would speak to them about the Dark Sky Initiative. Levy asked the Commissioners if they had received the model outdoor lighting. They had just received it that night. Levy said he proposed this starting in January. He said City Council approved it unanimously at their last meeting and asked that Planning Commission come back with it in a month. He said Council started to commit to starting a different commission for it but he told them it is so simple and so outlined that there is no reason why they can not give it to the Planning Commission who will probably understand it better than anybody they appoint. Levy gave the history of the Dark Sky Initiative. Levy said the only change the Planning Commission will have to make to the model ordinance is that it refers to a Board of Selectmen and we have a City Council. Levy said being a Dark Sky community would allow Tybee to see the stars and would allow Tybee to advertise it. He said there is no one on the eastern seaboard that has adopted the Dark Sky Initiative. He said we could advertise ourselves as the only city on the eastern seaboard where on a clear night you can see the Milky Way. He said it would also prevent going from a very bright area to a very dark area. He said it also cuts down on the use of electricity. Levy told the Commissioners that the proposed ordinance refers to grandfathering of non-conforming uses. He said it is going to take some changes to put this into effect and if they are going to grandfather the uses that are already there, they may as well forget the whole ordinance: they will never get a dark sky. Levy talked about how the lights where he lives would need to be changed to keep them from shining in the sky. He urged the Commissioners not to accept the grandfather clause. Sandy Chandler said the model ordinance recommends that within 90 days of notification grandfathered luminaires be redirected, so in essence the grandfathering does not mean anything like traditional grandfathering. Levy said it is only luminaires that direct light toward streets or parking lots, that cause disability glare to motorists or cyclists. He said you can have a light shining up on a sign that did not affect a street or parking lot and it would be grandfathered. Levy urged them to take the grandfathering out of it. Rachel Perkins asked if Levy was familiar with the Savannah Electric streetlights. Levy said some of the worst violators are the streetlights but they can be shielded. Perkins said the biggest offender was the Pavilion. Barry Brown asked about the lights in parking lots. Levy said lights could not be more than 25 feet high and could not shine beyond the horizon. Brown asked how that effects the parking lots. Levy said fixtures can be chosen that will shine in a precise area. Levy said he realized they needed to study this. He said he pleads with them not to accept the grandfathering clause. Tsoulos suggested that if this was something they possibly want to recommend to City Council they would need to have either another meeting of Planning Commission or a subcommittee. Perkins suggested a subcommittee and to invite Levy and others that are interested. Tsoulos said it would have to be advertised. Levy recommended that Charlie Brewer, a representative from Savannah Electric, be invited. Chandler asked why the meeting would have 7 to be advertised. Tsoulos said anytime Planning Commission meets and has a quorum it has to be advertised. Gene Kindrick suggested reducing the number of people. Bill Garbett, Honor Hutton, Rachel Perkins, and Chuck Powell volunteered to serve on the subcommittee. It was decided to meet May 30, 2006 at 7:00 p.m. at City Hall and to invite Charlie Brewer. Barry Brown said some of the drawings people are submitting need to be drawn by professionals. He said if people are asking for variances proper drawings are needed to protect the City’s best interest. Brown said since we do not have an after-the-fact survey, there needs to be somebody up front that is going to take responsibility for the drawing. He said it could cost a little bit of money but at the same time there are people coming up for variances and Planning Commission can not decide without proper drawings. Chairperson Lawanna Tsoulos asked if Brown was speaking to variances and remodeling. Brown said he was speaking about individuals. He gave an example of a recent case that was not done professionally. Rachel Perkins said there are people that are quite intelligent and know how to take measurements. She said she would hesitate to make it a requirement that everybody has to pay a professional. Sandy Chandler said yes, but an individual’s drawing is not certified. Brown said some things are perceived to be there but they are not on the drawings and then things get by because they are not on the drawings, and then they go back to the wording of how something was passed. Perkins said it needed to be done case by case. Brown said there are no as-builts. Bill Garbett said he agreed with Brown as far as the poor quality of some of the items being presented. He said he agreed with Perkins in that some individuals are able to do them. He said it certainly has to be legible. He gave examples of a couple of recent cases. Garbett said perhaps they could specify a scale. Chandler gave another example. Tsoulos asked if they wanted to make a recommendation to Council. Brown said on large developments it is a given. Tsoulos said they are not speaking to those; they are speaking to the smaller ones. Chandler said the site plan really needs to have all the elements in place. Tsoulos said commercial ones do. Brown said commercial ones and large developments do well. He said the problem comes when individuals try to sketch a site plan. Chuck Powell asked if it would satisfy everybody if they recommend to City Council that site plans be drawn to scale. Powell said if it is not right at the Agenda Meeting that is when they have the chance to correct it. Brown said it needs to be done by a licensed surveyor. Tsoulos asked Dee Anderson when people come to staff for a variance do they have to bring a survey of their property. Anderson said they have to have a survey. He said some people have surveys that are 20 years old. He said there is no ordinance; they can make it an office policy that more professional drawings are required. Tsoulos asked Brown if petitioners come to staff and then to Planning Commission with a building addition clearly marked on a current survey would that be satisfactory. Brown said the as-built requirement did not start until three or four years ago so a lot of people are coming in for variances that do not have an as-built survey. He said they are assuming that dimensions are correct, and in order to protect the City there needs to be a survey of the property in its present state. Anderson gave an example from last year. Anderson said they have to have a survey to get a building permit so they are going to incur the expense. Brown said unfortunately it is going to cost money but it lets everybody know what is there. Anderson said if somebody brings in a survey that is too old they are told to get a more current survey. Chandler said staff should be making the determination. Anderson said the only Ordinances that address drawings are the Tree Ordinance, which says the tree survey can be hand drawn, and the subdivision sketch plan which can be hand drawn. He said they can make it a staff policy that hand drawings are not acceptable. Garbett asked Brown if that was satisfactory. Brown said staff can screen it before it gets to Planning Commission; try it and see if it works. He said they are ultimately going to have to come to the as-built to make sure everybody’s backs are covered. Perkins said she is adamantly against requiring everybody to have a survey done by a professional for every aspect. Anderson said this would only be if somebody does not have a survey. He said there is a big misconception; people think they own to the blacktop. Chandler recommended that Anderson be the one to determine it. Anderson said the Planning Commission holds an Agenda Meeting and the purpose of the meeting is to make sure the Commissioners have what they want to make a decision. Tsoulos said if someone brings something that the Commissioners are not comfortable with that is the time to ask them to have somebody draw it to scale. Chandler said people are confused about what the Commissioners want. Anderson said staff has already decided that when someone submits an application for Planning Commission they will be required to schedule a meeting to sit down and make sure everything is there. Gene Kindrick motioned to adjourn. Barry Brown seconded. The vote was unanimous.