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HomeMy Public PortalAbout10-22-2007 Monthly Workshop Meeting October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 1 of 24 MINUTES Board of Commissioners Monthly Workshop Monday, October 22, 2007 – 7:00 p.m. Town Barn PRESENT: Mayor Tom Stevens, Commissioners Evelyn Lloyd, Mike Gering, Brian Lowen, and L. Eric Hallman. ABSENT: CommissionerFrances Dancy. PLANNING BOARD: Tom Campanella, Edna Ellis, Dave Remington, Kate Faherty, Toby Vandemark, and Barrie Wallace. AMERICAN ASSET CORPORATION: Joe Dye, Beth Trahos, Brian Purdy, Cara Lacey, Earl Lewellyn, and Brian Pluckett. STAFF: Town Manager Eric Peterson, Town Clerk/Personnel Officer Donna Armbrister, Planning Director Margaret Hauth, Assistant Utilities Director Will Baker, Assistant Town Manager/Public Works Director Nicole Ard, Budget & Management Analyst Emily Bradford, and Town Attorney Bob Hornik. 1.Open the Workshop. 7:03:12 PM Mayor Stevens called the meeting to order. 7:03:27 PM Town Manager Eric Peterson introduced Nicole Ard, the Town’s new Assistant Town Manager and Public Works Director. 2.Agenda Changes & Agenda Approval. 7:04:13 PM Commissioner Gering requested an update on the odor complaint made by Ms. Plunkett. 7:04:42 PM Mr. Peterson noted that Assistant Utilities Director Will Baker would provide an update tonight. 1 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 2 of 24 7:05:26 PM Commissioner Lowen suggested moving the discussion on the Boone/Collins Master Plan to earlier on the agenda, to allow those attending the meeting for that purpose to leave before the Board took up other matters. 7:06:08 PM Mayor Stevens stated his preference would be to proceed with the agenda as noted. 7:06:16 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Gering, seconded by Commissioner Lowen, the Board moved to approve the agenda by a vote of 4-0. The motion was declared passed. 3.Committee Updates and Reports. 7:06:29 PM Will Baker stated that Ms. Plunkett had attended a recent meeting and addressed an odor complaint in her area. He said they had found a new chemical to be used at the pump stations, which was where the odor emanates. Mr. Baker stated they had visited Ms. Plunkett’s house at the time she had reported the odor, and had been able to isolate where it was coming from. He said that Monday they set up a tank and added that chemical to the line, and as of Tuesday the neighbors had reported no odor and no further complaints had been made. 7:07:55 PM Commissioner Gering thanked Mr. Baker for his efforts to address the problem. 7:07:59 PM Mayor Stevens added his thanks for their response to citizens’ needs. 7:08:07 PM Commissioner Lowen asked if this complaint had been referred to the Water Sewer Advisory Board. Mr. Baker said he believed it was. Dan Barker, a representative of the Water Sewer Advisory Board, stated that the Board had discussed it and were seeking more information to ensure that the policies were understandable to everyone. 7:08:57 PM Mayor Stevens asked for other Committee reports. 7:09:00 PM Commissioner Hallman stated that the Parks and Recreation Board had embarked on a Connectivity Plan that would take about a year to complete. He said at the Economic Development Commission meeting, they had a presentation from a company in the Hillsborough Business Park called Megawatts Solar that has a very efficient way to capture solar power. Commissioner Hallman said instead of flat panel displays they used reflectors to concentrate the sun’s rays. He said over the next five years there was a potential for that company to add 200 employees, and that was exciting for the Town. 7:10:55 PM Commissioner Gering stated that the Tourism Board had gotten a response from the marketing group they had hired to do the branding survey. He said the Board had received recommendations and had identified the top five of those recommendations. Commissioner Gering said one of those was a wayfinding signage program and another one was consistency in coverage of the various websites the Town had. 2 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 3 of 24 7:11:59 PM Mayor Stevens commented that Commissioner Dancy typically attended the County Tourism Board meetings, and wayfinding had been brought up there so it was a County- wide issue. He said they should be looking at finding consistencies throughout the County, and that Hillsborough was taking a lead position on that. 7:12:41 PM Commissioner Gering stated the Tourism Board wanted to play a role in the wayfinding signage program, but it was really the Town staff that would be taking the lead. 7:12:51 PM Mayor Stevens stated the west end soccer facilities and other County facilities were where some consistency across the County should be worked on. 7:13:14 PM Commissioner Lowen said the Solid Waste Advisory Board had met last Wednesday and were working on the recommendation to build a transfer station on Eubanks Road. He said there were a lot of components to the recommendation, and one of the benefits for Hillsborough was that they would be able to have cardboard collection at the curb as opposed to taking it to recycling drop-off sites, as well as other benefits. 7:14:11 PM Commissioner Lloyd stated that she and the Town Manager would be meeting soon with representatives of the Fire Department to discuss various issues. 4.Update on the Nash Street Sidewalk Project. 7:15:17 PM Ms. Hauth stated another funding option had been identified, the STPDA funds, which were Direct Allocation funds from DOT to the individual MPO’s. She said their MPO, which was Durham, Chapel Hill, Carrboro, Orange County, Hillsborough and a small corner of Chatham County, had each set aside a significant portion to spend on bicycle and pedestrian items. Ms. Hauth said she had submitted the Nash Street project for that funding, and the Town could receive up to 80% of the cost of the entire project. She said the Town had never asked for that funding before, but because the project was ready to move forward the Town should be very competitive. Ms. Hauth said the one drawback of that funding was that they would not have a final decision until around March, so it could delay the project. But, she said, for that significant amount of funding it may be wise to delay for a short time. Commissioner Gering stated that would amount to about $400,000. Ms. Hauth said it would be at least that much. Mr. Peterson stated the entire project was estimated to cost about $650,000. Ms. Hauth said she would keep everyone informed, but she was very hopeful that the Town would be successful. 7:17:58 PM Mayor Stevens stated there was a side project associated with this project. Ms. Hauth said they may wrap both projects together, although Ken Hines had suggested bidding them separately. 3 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 4 of 24 5.Discussion Regarding Possible Early Application of Water Restrictions. 7:18:44 PM Mr. Peterson stated he had wanted to raise this issue due to the Governor’s call for stricter water conservation. He said they were at about 68% capacity, which was approximately 228 days. Mr. Peterson said they had been releasing water to Lake Orange for about six weeks, and with the possibility of all the neighboring communities entering into even more conservation measures he had felt the Board might want to discuss the possibility of entering into such restrictions earlier than the 180 days called for in the Ordinance. Mr. Peterson suggested the Board might want to direct this to the Water Sewer Advisory Board for its deliberation and recommendation back to the Town Board. He said he believed that group was meeting on November 1. Mr. Peterson said that Orange County was preparing to enter their Stage 5 water restrictions, with different withdrawal restrictions. He said at present they could draw 1.28 mgd out of the river, and they were only using 1.1 mgd, but the County would likely drop that down. Mr. Peterson said with that being said, the County would be asking everyone in its jurisdiction to enter into voluntary restrictions, likely by the end of the week. He said because the Town Board would not meet again until November 13, the Board may want to consider authorizing either him or the Mayor to go ahead and sign the Water Sewer Advisory Board’s recommendation into action. 7:21:08 PM Mayor Stevens said they could call upon all citizens to voluntarily conserve th water, and wait until the 13 to make a decision, but it might be in the Town’s best interests to respond more quickly. 7:21:37 PM Commissioner Lowen stated he did not want to undervalue the Water Sewer Advisory Board’s recommendation, but this Board needed to act in the best interest of the Town and do it quickly. He said at the very least voluntary restrictions should be enacted now. 7:22:37 PM Commissioner Hallman asked what the Stage 1 restrictions entailed. Mr. Peterson stated Stage 1 was considered voluntary restrictions and there were four recommendations: ? Provide water saving devices to the public, which had been done during the major drought several years ago. He said low flow aerators were given away for shower head and faucets. ? Provide daily or weekly reservoir level and water usage statistics, which Mr. Keel now does on a regular basis. ? Recommend water usage reduction techniques through water bills, flyers, notices, web page and media, which could be ramped up to call more attention to the drought and conservation efforts. ? Request the public to reduce consumption by 10%. 7:24:00 PM Mayor Stevens stated that Stage 1 would be very much in order. 4 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 5 of 24 7:24:04 PM Commissioner Hallman recommended that Stage 1 be implemented immediately, and that any further cutbacks be remanded to the Water Sewer Advisory Board for recommendations. 7:24:14 PM Mayor Stevens stated that should include any policies that may need to be looked at and evaluated in terms of selling water or making water available to the Town’s neighbors. 7:24:25 PM Commissioner Gering said this sounded like a good idea, but he would like to have more details. In particular, he said, he would like to know what the Town’s neighbors’ water usage was, in terms of their demand. Commissioner Gering said they needed to keep in mind to what extent they could help their neighbors without emptying the reservoir. He said Hillsborough’s customers had been making water sacrifices all year long every year simply because the water rates were so high, and he would not like to ask the Town’s customers to sacrifice more than the Town’s neighbors had been sacrificing. Commissioner Gering said if they were going to be asking their customers to reduce their usage then that would also impact the Water Fund’s revenue. He said if one way to recover that was to sell water to their neighbors, then he wanted some sort of analysis that would assure him that they would be able to recover at least the lost revenue for their conservation. Commissioner Gering said he did not know what their contract required for the exchange rate for water, but if it only recovered the cost of providing services then in essence they would be subsidizing their neighbors through their own conservation. He said he wanted to make sure that the Town’s customers were treated equitably and were not asked to sacrifice more than their fair share. 7:26:19 PM Mr. Peterson stated the rate they had paid for purchasing emergency water from Durham would be the same rate Durham would have to pay to the Town to purchase water. He said he could not say exactly what revenue would be projected, but it would more than cover the cost. Mr. Peterson said that Durham did use about 3 times more water than Hillsborough, so they were limited in how much they could provide to Durham. 7:27:15 PM Mayor Stevens stated with all things being said, it appeared that Stage 1 voluntary conservation was called for, and to then have the Water Sewer Advisory Board delve into the more complex issues associated with water restrictions or the selling of water. 7:27:53 PM Commissioner Lloyd asked if the lines had to be flushed no matter what. Mr. Peterson said the lines had to be flushed either way, but he did not believe they were in an imminent emergency at the present time. Commissioner Lloyd asked would their neighbors be asked to pay for flushing the lines if the water went to them. Mr. Peterson said he did not know the answer to that. 7:28:47 PM Dan Barker stated that he believed the Water Sewer Advisory Board would agree that Stage 1 was the path to follow. 7:29:11 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Hallman, seconded by Commissioner Lowen, the Board moved to enter into Stage 1 water restrictions as soon as possible and then remand to 5 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 6 of 24 the Water Sewer Advisory Board any further restrictions to be considered and that that Board return recommendations to the Town Board by a vote of 4-0. The motion was declared passed. th 6.Discussion Regarding Revisions, as of October 17, to the Proposed Boone/Collins Development Master Plan (Town Board and Planning Board). 7:29:45 PM Mayor Stevens stated the Board had discussed a process for moving into this discussion, and recommended having a very brief presentation by the applicant to provide the Board an overview. Then, he said, the Town Board and Planning Board would proceed with its discussion and questions. 7:30:33 PM Joe Dye, with American Asset Corporation, noted that what had been provided with the packet for tonight’s meeting was the latest draft prepared after the last workshop. He said the largest discussion had centered around further reduction of the overall density, primarily in the residential area. Mr. Dye stated at the last meeting they had spoken about 850 units, but after studying the yield analysis and their product types in terms of the various kinds of residential called for in the plan, the current plan now reflected a reduction to 780 total units, which was 9 less than Waterstone as a comparison example. Mr. Dye stated they had also looked at the spine road connecting the commercial area to the residential area, and how the different kinds of residential types might be oriented. He stated the density continued to include the 12-acre school site, with the idea of that being dedicated to Orange County, but they were open to it being dedicated to the Town. Mr. Dye said 3.5 acres had been dedicated for civic or community use, but that would be for use by the Town for such uses as a police or fire station or other civic use. He said there was a commitment to open space, noting parcel K and the other areas noted as open space or community/green areas. Mr. Dye stated that the design continued to maintain a LEED commitment to the core and shell program for the commercial area, and they had added a commitment for LEED neighborhood design for the residential area. Mr. Dye stated they had revised the affordable housing provisions, increasing that to 30 units, with 15 as single-family units, and were maintaining the financial commitment of $375,000 to the administration affordable housing opportunities. He said they had reassessed the financial contribution towards the water tower, and looked at what matched the density for the plan and the direct contribution offsetting the fiscal shortfalls projected in the original analysis. 7:37:29 PM Mayor Stevens stated they would need a staff response. He said one thing that had struck him was the offer for the municipal space was an offer to purchase, so it was reserved but not a dedication to the Town. Mayor Stevens said both the civic site and the school site, if not accepted, would revert to use by some type of housing. 7:38:01 PM Commissioner Hallman stated he had thought they were going to get both gross and net numbers for the annual tax revenue, based on what the current revenue was now being backed out of that figure to give them the net. Mr. Peterson said that because these numbers 6 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 7 of 24 continued to change, the staff was not going to attempt to produce anything else until the Board was satisfied with the proposal. Mr. Peterson stated when he had reviewed this latest proposal a few things had stood out. He said one thing was the developer’s original offer of a contribution of $396,000 as an offset, and for clarification he had not made a recommendation on the first analysis based on the 700+ homes; that number is actually the deficit from FY09 to FY12. He said when they produced that first financial analysis and showed the numbers, the developer said they did not want to build 783 homes, they wanted to build 1100+, so they had redone the analysis based on that and the numbers had changed. Mr. Peterson said the $396,000 was the actual deficit number, but until they firmed up all the numbers associated with the development, he could not say that that was the right thing for the Town to do. Mr. Peterson said he had been more than concerned about the 3.5 acres, noting that to him that was something the Town had to have. He said he did not believe the Town should have to purchase those 3.5 acres; it was one of the contributions that Waterstone made and he believed it was a critical component for this plan. Mr. Peterson said they would eventually need a police station, a fire station, or both, and the density of commercial and residential in this development would create that need. Mr. Peterson said he was also concerned about the 12 acres to be dedicated to the school, which appeared to include the ballfields. He said if they agreed to that, and Orange County did not want to purchase it, then they would have lost out on an opportunity. Mr. Peterson said if the property were not used as a school, it would revert to some type of housing which in turn would produce additional revenue. But, he said, part of the developer’s concern was that the Town was asking for a lot and he did not have the financial resources to do that. Mr. Peterson said giving the land to the County for a school and getting exempted from the impact fees was, in his opinion, the best zero sum gain. He said it may be worse than a zero sum gain because based on the cost of that land it appeared that the school board might want the $3,000 per unit impact fee and then be able to go buy land in a better location. Mr. Peterson said his personal feeling was they may be trying to put a square peg in a round hole with the school site. He said if there was not a better use of that land because of the possibility of the transit hub being close to downtown, he was concerned that might be a “fly in the ointment” in coming up with the better solution. But, he said, he would say that he did not believe those components were good for the Town. 7:43:13 PM Mayor Stevens said he believed that parcel being offered to the Town was a zero gain, noting they could either buy it or be exempted from it. 7:43:37 PM Tom Campanella agreed that the site was an amazing site with a lot of potential for many different kinds of Town amenities, noting it was only a 10 to 15 minute walk to the downtown. He agreed it was not the best place for a school, and believed the Town would be wise to hold on to that for potential future uses. Mr. Campanella said one of the best uses would be for a future rail station or other municipal civic uses. 7 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 8 of 24 7:45:09 PM Commissioner Lloyd asked was the civic part included as part for the transit stop, or was it located above the school site. Mr. Peterson said according to their map, parcel E was being offered to the Town for purchase, and then parcel F was the 12 acres designated for the school site which included the transit stop at the T-intersection. 7:45:41 PM Commissioner Lloyd said there was nothing being given to the Town free of charge except for the green area across I-85. She said she didn’t see the point of going any further because the developer had not heard anything she had said or what others had said. Commissioner Lloyd said this project would cost the Town in water, and the taxpayers would be subsidizing the project. Commissioner Lloyd stated Waterstone had taken a lot of negotiation, but they had ultimately given the Town some amenities. She said she had believed the developers would offer the Town the land for civic use, but that was not the case. Commissioner Lloyd commented on the traffic this development would cause and the affect on the neighbors and the Town as a whole. She said what had been proposed as far as widening nearby roads was not something she could support because she did not believe it could be done successfully. Commissioner Lloyd said the proposal was beginning to be “ridiculous” because what the Town was giving up was not being returned in other ways. She said at the very least the developer should have donated the space for civic use to the Town. Commissioner Lloyd stated that if the Town did not purchase the 3.5 acres for civic use then it would revert back to residential use, and more houses caused more problems for the Town but made more money for the developer. She said there was not much about the proposal that she appreciated, and did not think the developer had listened to anything she had said in previous meetings. She added that Orange County thought it was a terrible plan as well. 7:49:35 PM Edna Ellis stated she was concerned about traffic and water, asking with the current drought where would the water come from for such a large project. She said if another drought situation developed after the project was completed, how the Town would provide enough water to its citizens. Ms. Ellis asked how traffic would be controlled, and if there was some other way for people to exit the development other than on Churton Street. She asked was there a crossing over the railroad as they had first stated they would provide and did they have an opening to Valley Forge as they had first stated they would have, adding she did not think so. 7:50:44 PM Commissioner Gering said this project was something he thought about multiple times daily. He stated one of his concerns was that parcels B, C, D, G, H, and I when developed to the proposed intensity would be deforesting and would create a “naked scene” for those on Churton Street. Commissioner Gering said he would like to see a plan for residential that reduced the density to a point where you would not see any of the houses, and although he did not know what that number would be 750 was multiple orders of magnitude too many. Commissioner Gering said similarly, the intensity of commercial on parcel A would pose a problem, partly in timing. He said the way this plan was presented it seemed to be building a 8 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 9 of 24 new downtown or a new center for Hillsborough, to the extent that it provided the same amenities. He said it would therefore detract from the downtown vitality. Commissioner Gering said at the same time they were in an uncertain state in that Waterstone was not yet developed, Oakdale Village was not yet developed, Hampton Pointe was struggling to be developed, and they had heard already from the marketing survey said this could be a feasible project but did not indicate to what expense that would be to other areas of the Town. He said he was concerned that to the extent this project was successful it would then detract from the downtown, Waterstone, Oakdale Village and Hampton Pointe. Commissioner Gering said despite the traffic studies, he had a hard time conceptualizing that traffic would not be a major issue with the intensity of both commercial and residential. 7:53:34 PM Kate Faherty agreed that the Town had not yet had a chance to absorb the effects of Waterstone, and what effect that development would have on the Town or how it would shift the balance of the Town. She said she was concerned about the timing of this project in relation to the other large projects already approved. Ms. Faherty said the project appeared to be well- thought out and had some nice features, but at the same time the timing for the Town was not optimal. Additionally, she said they had current issues with the housing market nationally as well as the drought, and it was difficult for her to see undertaking such a huge development when there were so many uncertainties. Ms. Faherty said they had not yet seen what Waterstone would do to the feel of the Town, and had a hard time agreeing to another large development until those effects were seen. Ms. Faherty said she understood that the Boone/Collins development would be built in stages and would take many years, but Hillsborough was a small Town and they had big things going on already. 7:55:11 PM Dave Remington said to whatever extent this area was going to grow commercially and in population, one question was did they want to have things that were higher density to avoid sprawl. He said that was in the 2010 Plan, in the Churton Street Corridor Plan, and the Strategic Growth Plan. Mr. Remington said this area was almost a donut hole in between what they have now and what would be at Waterstone. He said some would agree that this was a place for some degree of density for mixed-use, residential, office, commercial and some retail, and he got the feeling they were seeing what that meant and saying no, we don’t want that. Mr. Remington said would the consequence be that we would have a lot of development at Waterstone and then close the door, which may mean that would draw the center of gravity away from the downtown as opposed to something that could bring some of that back into the downtown and provide more connection between the more far flung areas. Mr. Remington said he did not want this development to be a second downtown, and the possibility of that concerned him. But, he said, there were some kinds of retail that there would never be room for downtown, and this was a good way to have that close enough so that it would not draw the center of gravity into a sort of “Cary-like expanding suburbia.” 7:57:47 PM Mr. Campanella said at the last meeting he had stated the plan was submitted in a two-dimensional vacuum without the topography, in that you could not see how this urban 9 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 10 of 24 design scheme actually laid on the land. He thanked the applicant for now providing that topography. Mr. Campanella suggested that the yellow area on the map, which was basically parcels B, C, H, I, and J, and parts of G and D receive much less development. He suggested the density of those residential units be moved into the more urban “pods” in the A zone, and to perhaps reduce the commercial and make it more of a residential node. Mr. Campanella said as well, he suggested adding some residential to what was known as a transit oriented development. He said this was one of the most wonderful opportunities he had ever seen for a transit oriented development within 10 minutes walking distance of the downtown. Mr. Campanella said his suggestions would pull away a lot of the dense development shown on the serpentine area running across the most prominent topography. He said that was the topography Commissioner Gering had noted would be deforested and seen from Churton Street, and no matter how nicely it was developed the view would be “post-apocalypse.” He suggested that the entire yellow zone receive only very light footprint development with large lots and single-family homes, and all other development be pulled away and concentrated into the more urban nodes at the north end and at the Daniel Boone end. 8:00:20 PM Barrie Wallace asked what Mr. Campanella thought about housing near the freeway. Mr. Campanella said the view you would get coming down I-85 to Churton Street was lovely, and even with a 100-foot buffer too much tree-cutting would be obvious from miles away. He said as well, in that area a very few houses should be tucked into the woods. Ms. Wallace said she was thinking about it from the perspective of people living next to a freeway. Mr. Campanella said it actually was not that close, noting it was hundreds of feet away through dense woods, and did not believe that was a “deal breaker.” He said better to put just a few single-family rather than many multi-family units in there. 8:01:48 PM Mayor Stevens stated he was concerned about there being another downtown, but not so much that if designed well it could be dealt with. Certainly, he said, he saw the opportunity for the redevelopment of the commercial area there and that being a positive. He said in many ways that would become the center of Town, which made it so important to not compete but to co-exist with the downtown. Mayor Stevens said he liked some of the aspects of the development, but at the same time there was nothing dramatically compelling about the proposal. He said this would become a centerpiece for the Town and that was worrisome, noting there was clearly not a financial incentive for the Town, particularly with Waterstone coming. He said as much as he liked some of the project, they were loosing the opportunity for something that could be much nicer, and he was not seeing what the benefits would be at this point with this plan. 8:04:01 PM Ms. Faherty said at the last meeting she had emphasized that without there being a replacement for the ballfields it would definitely diminish the Town’s recreational facilities. She said the idea of having ballfields in a centralized location so that children of all ages could utilize them was an opportunity that should not be missed. Ms. Faherty said they should not be replaced by moving them somewhere else. 10 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 11 of 24 8:05:30 PM Commissioner Gering said the municipal area was essential to Hillsborough, but also did not think this plan was essential for Hillsborough to get that land for municipal use. He said the idea of a transit station, a school and ballfields was all very attractive, but did not think they needed this plan to get those things. 8:06:03 PM Ms. Faherty said as the plan now stood, if the school land was offered to Orange County there was no guarantee that Orange County would wish to have ballfields located there. 8:06:16 PM Commissioner Gering agreed that was an issue. Mr. Peterson said an earlier discussion with the developer was that if the larger piece of land was deeded to the Town, then the Town, the school system and HYAA could collaborate together to put those different components on the land so that the developer did not have to be burdened with trying to identify a solution. He said it was a good point that if Orange County decided it did not want to build a school there, then they lost the ballfields and the Town would be even worse off than they were now. 8:07:02 PM Mayor Stevens said it frustrated him that that was even being proposed. He said to him it appeared the developer was not listening to the Town. Mr. Dye said they were open to discussion about that. He said it was very difficult for them to balance a lot of the elements that were clearly not being received well by many of the Board members. Mr. Dye said it was hard to balance everything while continuing to reduce the number of dwelling units, and then fiscally balancing all the other elements. He said they were hearing everything being said, but they were challenged to find that balance and still make it profitable. 8:08:02 PM Mayor Stevens said they could appreciate that difficulty. 8:08:05 PM Commissioner Lloyd stated the fiscal impact summary showed a capital contribution of $396,961 as an offset in short-term fiscal deficit. She said it was proposed that the contribution be used for the downtown as desired by the Town and the applicant, and paid annually over a period of time beginning with approval of the first SUP. She asked if that was to be taken from the money that was going to be given for police and/or police equipment. Mr. Peterson said the $396,000 was the actual deficit figure that was in the very first version, so they were taking bits and pieces from the different versions of the plan over the past six months. Mr. Peterson said the $396,000 deficit was composed of such things as purchasing police cars, hiring officers, fire capital, and other expenses. Mr. Peterson said that was what he had believed would be the impact to Hillsborough’s citizens on their tax dollars. He said at least in the short term, citizens would be subsidizing the development, but obviously not in the long run. Mr. Peterson said just like Waterstone, they had not necessarily completely erased it, but had figured out ways to address it. So, he said, what the developer was saying was that they proposed that the contribution be used to make a connection downtown. But, he said, his concern was that the Town was still left “holding the bag” on the deficit and the operating issues. 11 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 12 of 24 Mr. Peterson said that did not mean that you could not use some of that money for a pedestrian connection downtown, but you would still be subsidizing the deficit. So, he said, his comment would be that if the Board liked this plan and this proposal, then he would suggest using only a small portion of the $396,000 for a downtown connection. 8:10:49 PM Commissioner Lloyd said or else, the taxpayers would be paying for new police officers, which was the biggest item in their budget. She said they still were facing dealing with the wastewater treatment plant. Mr. Peterson commented that some Board members had mentioned wanting less residential. He said if the developer was able to accommodate less residential, that also changed the model and assumptions because there would be less service demand and perhaps less requirement or other types of things. Mr. Peterson said if the Board could find a plan that met its long-term vision for the community, then they could work out the financial components. 8:12:01 PM Commissioner Gering agreed with Mr. Remington that when thinking about residential they needed to think about where more dense residential would be desirable. He said he believed Mr. Campanella was suggested at the same time that they pull the intensity from the middle part of the parcel to both ends, and believed that would accomplish both objectives. He said where the residential was placed was really the key question. 8:12:46 PM Mr. Remington asked what would happen if the housing slowdown continued to be an issue, and projects planned over the next 5 to 10 years actually took 10 to 20 years. He said then the period of deficits versus surplus would be financially spread out over a longer period of time. Or conversely, he said, what if the market should really heat up again. Mr. Remington said this all seemed to be based on everyone’s best guess as to how fast things would really get developed, and it appeared to him that things were moving much slower than what had been envisioned even before the current slowdown. He said his question was what that would be fiscally to the Town. 8:14:05 PM Commissioner Lloyd said an example would be the Latta farm which had been offered to the Town for annexation, but the people along NC 86 did not want to be annexed. She said if the Town had annexed it the Town would have been in the hole because the houses would not sell. Commissioner Lloyd said luckily those residents fought the annexation and won, and that had been a blessing to the Town. Commissioner Lloyd said she did not want to see the Town loose in this situation, noting the Town did not have the money to loose and could not take the risk. 8:15:51 PM Commissioner Lowen remarked that it did trouble him that the 3.5 acres was all that would be offered, as well as the fact that they would have to purchase it. He said to think they would have to pay for the property that would be used to provide the services they would need to provide to this development was a lot to ask. Commissioner Lowen said he would like to see this project work, and obviously the owners wanted to sell the property or redevelop it. He said unfortunately since a great portion of it was currently zoned General Commercial, if they 12 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 13 of 24 did not do something with it they would loose control over it. Commissioner said they could end up with something that they might not want. Commissioner Lowen said he still had concerns about the crossing over the railroad, noting that without a doubt many people would come from the Sportsplex area and take that spine road. He said that needed to be addressed before a project of this magnitude was approved. Commissioner Lowen said Waterstone had been reworked and reworked many times before it was approved, and it appeared this development would take much time as well. He said they would either do it or not do it, but the concerns brought up tonight must be addressed and he did not want to have to keep coming back to the table to address the same issues. 8:18:23 PM Ms. Wallace commented that she had seen plans for the widening of Highway 70, but did not remember if a sidewalk had been included in that. She said that area was already dangerous for people walking and riding bicycles, and many children were on that road. Ms. Wallace said it would be a terrible thing to build this development and not provide a sidewalk there. 8:19:27 PM Mr. Campanella said on that note, people also walked along the rail line because there was no sidewalk on Highway 70. He said it was safer to walk along a live rail line than to walk on Highway 70. 8:20:00 PM Ms. Wallace said she saw many pre-teens on bicycles along that roadway, and it was not safe. 8:20:04 PM Mayor Stevens said a greenway was proposed there which could actually be an amenity. 8:20:36 PM Commissioner Lowen said his concern was even with a street crossing over the railroad, that freight trains were very, very long. He said if traffic backed up on Highway 70 or even into this development, vehicles trying to make a turn into the development would have much difficulty. He said he continued to see issues he had thought had been addressed coming back to the table, and that concerned him. 8:21:56 PM Mayor Stevens asked did it make sense for them to state what direction they were going and what things needed to be changed, or, should they decide that they did not want to proceed. 8:22:36 PM Commissioner Lowen said Mr. Dye had said they were open for some discussion, but they needed to have a serious discussion that they either were or were not going to do it. He said did they want to leave here tonight and say they would meet again, look at the same map, and discuss the same issues. Mayor Stevens said they should talk as long as they needed to in order to get something that was viable for the Town. 13 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 14 of 24 8:23:09 PM Ms. Wallace said a lot of the land would be annexed, and asked how much of it was commercially zoned now. Ms. Hauth said the 60 acres that was the Daniel Boone property was already within the Town limits and was zoned High Intensity Commercial. She said that was all of parcel A. Ms. Wallace said they had more control over the rest of the property, whether they did this plan or not. Ms. Hauth said that 60 acres would be required by the Board of Adjustment to have a very detailed and specific plan. She said it was difficult for the market to produce a 60-acre detailed site plan for a commercial shopping center, but if it met the criteria of the BOA then the site plan would go forward. She said it would not come to either the Planning Board or the Town Board, unless the applicant decided to ask for a rezoning of some sort. 8:26:20 PM Commissioner Gering said his view was that may be a lost opportunity, and they may not have the control they would want. But, he said, weighing that against the downside of the impacts of this development as proposed was not as bad an outcome as recommending this plan as proposed. 8:26:54 PM Commissioner Hallman said he wanted to recognize Mr. Remington’s point regarding density and agreed with him, but he was having trouble with the plan as a whole. He said they did not need to buy the 12+ acres of open space south of I-85, and that it was of no value to the Town whatsoever. And as the Manager had pointed out, he said, the school site was a zero sum gain. Commissioner Hallman said he did not see what the net tax revenue surplus would be, but it was not that high when you backed out the current tax revenue. He said he was worried about the deficit during the construction phase, and if that went longer than expected that cash flow may be worse than expected. For those reasons, he said, he did not see this working out and believed the best thing to do would be to say this deal was dead. 8:28:27 PM Mr. Remington said he agreed with much of what Commissioner Hallman had said. He said his questions about what happened if this all went slower than expected was of real concern because he believed that was exactly what would happen. But, he said, slower may be better as envisioned in the Churton Street Corridor Plan. Mr. Remington said he was skeptical of the idea that this could all happen in one Master Plan and be implemented over a decade or so, especially the retail but the housing as well. He said that Oakdale Village was thought to be a wonderful thing, but it was happening so slowly that they wondered if it would happen at all. Mr. Remington said if there was such a demand for retail space, he had thought that somebody would be interested in the abandoned Wal-Mart space. He said perhaps the Town should say they would not accept any more plans for retail development until that space was used. Mr. Remington said there was a good amount of retail proposed for Waterstone, and he was still concerned about drawing the center of gravity off too far from the downtown without something proposed for the Boone/Collins area, but realistically he did not see that happening very fast. He said he believed with that slow pace expected, they needed to look at what development should come first. Mr. Remington said perhaps they should be looking at what would bring an employment base to the area. 14 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 15 of 24 8:31:42 PM Mayor Stevens asked if the applicant wanted to respond to that. Mr. Dye said he agreed with Commissioner Lowen that they did not want to keep bringing back the same issues over and over again, but reiterated that it was a challenge to balance the business reality of how this would work for them with the things the Town was asking for. Mr. Dye said if there was an opportunity to have a frank discussion of how to move forward, then he would like to get some direct feedback on the fiscal package since clearly that was a sore spot. He said he had been taking the information received from this body and trying to put it in a format to bring back to the Town in a way that made sense to them from a business point of view. Mr. Dye said what he was hearing now was that from a business point of view from the Town, the plan was not so great. He said it may not be the best they could do, but it was the best they had been able to do and still balance the other considerations, including the sustainability concept and the significant investment in infrastructure on Churton Street and within the project to bring in water and sewer. Mr. Dye said the affordable housing component as well as the other components posed a challenge as to how to make them work. He said he was open to more conversation or some direction as to how to make that work, such as achieving ‘x” fiscal amount or reducing the density. Mr. Dye said he would like to say that if the density was cut much more then the “well would run dry.” He said he heard and understood the Boards’ concerns on density, but it was very difficult to take that and still make the project work. 8:34:30 PM Commissioner Gering asked was Mr. Dye saying that what he had asked for was not doable. Mr. Dye responded for that low a density, he would have to take another look at the plan. He said he did not see how it could support some of the other elements. Commissioner Gering said density was not really the issue, it was the total dwelling units and where the more dense dwelling units were located. Mr. Dye said one of the first comments he had heard in one of the early meetings was that they did not want this to be a large single-family development, but to go any lower they were not going to get any diversity of product. Or, he said, it would be very limited and not sustainable in the marketplace. 8:35:30 PM Commissioner Gering said they may be at an impasse. 8:35:36 PM Cara Lacey said it sounded as if Commissioner Gering had earlier had an issue with the number, then after Mr. Campanella made his remarks he had said even if you increased the density, as long as it was designed in a certain way he might support it. 8:35:54 PM Commissioner Gering said he was thinking more along the lines of one or two- acre lots, that is everything in parcels C, B, H, I, and J, and half or D and G at high intensity dwelling units would be the northern parts of D and G and the western parts of B and J, and some parts of A. 8:36:22 PM Ms. Lacey said in the original submittal they had most of the higher intensity uses on those portions of the property, and had switched it due to comments about not having single family on the highway. She said she understood Commissioner Gering’s concerns about this 15 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 16 of 24 being a great area for a transit oriented development (TOD), but in order to do that and support transit there was no way to decrease the density to what he would want to see. Ms. Lacey said the only want for them to compromise was to have those mix of uses to allow for single family and/or multi-family, but also what could be designed appropriately in order to support not only the commercial but to support the civic area as well as to see how the density would lay out at a later date. Ms. Lacey said she understood the frustration, because they were all hearing different things and trying to produce what the Boards wanted to see. But, she said, there were so many different things that they would like to see that it was starting to get a little “fumbled” and not meshing well. She said in terms of traffic, the reason they do mixed use was to pull most of the traffic off the main roads because that allowed for more pedestrians, bicycles, and mix of uses as well as more green space, which in turn provided a safer environment for those pedestrians and bicycles and provided a connection to the rest of the Town. Ms. Lacey said that was why Mr. Dye had allowed for the additional connection that the Town had desired. Ms. Lacey said there were some issues that needed to be worked on, such as the civic area, but she believed they were getting close and did not want the Board to be frustrated. She said they did want to work with the Town and get to those central issues of what the Town was looking for and what they needed to give to make them happy. 8:39:09 PM Commissioner Hallman said assuming they could agree on the density and figure out how to distribute that on the site, did the economics then support some of the contributions that the Boards had asked for tonight, or are they still too far apart that the economics of the site just don’t work. Mr. Dye said he could not answer that tonight, because he would need to go back and look at all the issues and evaluate them. He said if the statement was that the they needed to give 3.5 acres for civic use to the Town, they were open to that consideration, but they may then have to reconsider the other financial contributions and if that still worked or not. Mr. Dye said he would have to go back and figure that out to make sense of it. Mr. Dye stated that they needed to create a package that covered all the elements that could be sustained with the proposal. He said the idea of this being an employment center was a great idea, but the issue was how to fit that within the development or could it be done somewhere along Churton Street. Mr. Dye said having a State or DOT subsidy for sidewalks was also exciting to them, not only how it would figure into his project but also how to get that sidewalk up and down Churton Street. He said those were the types of things he would like to work on, as well as getting the package more in line so that they could move forward. Mr. Dye reiterated that if the civic land needed to be donated and there needed to be some level of financial package that did not create a shortfall, then he had heard that loud and clear. He said they had tried to make that work as a direct offset to that shortfall, and if he could maintain a density and redistribute it on the site, then he would like the opportunity to do that. Mr. Dye asked if that would be heading in the right direction in that those were the things that would make this project work, or when he repackaged that would they still not be where they needed to be. He said he did not want to waste the Boards’ time, and had appreciate the time spent so far. 16 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 17 of 24 Mr. Dye said they were very serious about this project, and would like to find a way to move forward. 8:42:34 PM Commissioner Hallman stated he could not speak for the rest of the Board, but he felt that if they knew what the package was then they could start to work with that density. He said he still could not get past the fact that the project was not now beneficial to the Town. Commissioner Hallman said he knew for sure that Hillsborough would be okay if this never got built. He said if you start with that assumption then layer this on top, it did not look as rosy. He said he did not want them to go through more risk analyses, but he had to know whether it was a good deal for the Town. 8:43:21 PM Mayor Stevens remarked from his perspective that what they had been trying to impart from day one was that this was a special tract of land in the Town, and they did not need to have it developed. But, he said, they were not against it, and what they wanted to see was something that really contributed to the overall vitality of the Town. Mayor Stevens said because it was a development in itself and would ultimately contribute to the Town was not a particularly compelling part. Mayor Stevens said he did not believe it was so much a matter of the density, but what the trade- off would be for the Town. He said it might be a nice plan, but it did not reach the point of being really compelling for the Town. He said in fact, it felt like a loosing proposition for the Town. Mayor Stevens said he had thought part of the benefit would be that the Town would get some land at no cost. Mayor Sevens said there had to be some compelling benefit to the Town for the Town to be willing to make density concessions or other kinds of concessions, or somehow it became much more beneficial financially or added something to the Town that it did not now have. He said that had been communicated over and over again, but they were still not seeing that in the package. Mayor Stevens said the plan was falling short, and that was the cause of the frustration. He said that was disappointing, because they would like to see a package that had compelling benefits for the Town. 8:46:06 PM Ms. Ellis said when the Town had first learned that these developers were coming to Hillsborough many people had been excited because they thought they were going to modernize Daniel Boone Village and provide new places to shop. Then, she said, 1100 residential units were proposed. She said what was needed was retail shops such as clothing and shoe stores, and when you add that many residences those people would be forced to shop in Mebane, Durham, Chapel Hill and other places. She reiterated she had hoped that Daniel Boone would be a retail shopping area, but it appeared that was not to be. 8:47:24 PM Mr. Peterson said hypothetically, on pods E and F, under a TOD, if they were looking on a solution to save the ballfields and chisel out land for a civic use and the transit, and then open that up to make more land available for the developer, and addressing Commissioner Gering’s comment about more density there, from a planning perspective would you want multi- 17 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 18 of 24 family that close to the transit stop, or what other uses would be available for the developer to receive some benefit from. 8:48:08 PM Mr. Campanella said the uses should be some convenience commercial. He said what residential was put into a TOD in pods E and F, there was still plenty of room for the ballfields to remain with room to spare. He said any residential built in E and F, and even in the northern parts of D and G, you would still not see any of that from Churton Street and it was no more than a 15-minute walk to the downtown. 8:49:33 PM Ms. Hauth said everything she had seen related to TODs was that people who lived there wanted to be able to stop on the way home to pick up dry cleaning, for instance, or stop at the bank or pick up a prescription. She said all that convenience commercial needed to be close, but the dense residential also had to be very close and at higher densities than had been proposed. Ms. Hauth said it might be worth having representatives from TTA come and talk about TODs and if it was something the Town could tolerate. She said for instance, if they lowered the density in one place and moved it elsewhere, would they still have enough. And, she said, would they ever convince TTA to stop there. 8:50:30 PM Commissioner Hallman said it would have to be economically feasible. 8:51:13 PM Mr. Remington said in addition to the convenience commercial, he would wonder about professional office space. He said he could see a lot of first floor space being a combination of convenience commercial and professional office space. He said above that apartments or condos could be provided, such as live/work units. 8:52:04 PM Mr. Campanella stated that the rail station in Cary actually had office space in the rail station building. He said DMV had an office there, as well as some other Town-type functions. Mr. Campanella stated that TTA had produced a lengthy and well-conceived guide to transit station area development. Mr. Remington commented on some TODs in the Greensboro area. He said that was a large area that could support more density. Mr. Campanella said one thing about a TOD was that the connector would definitely be a heavily used road, and that connection that was shown on US 70A was a nightmare intersection. He said he was not a traffic engineer, but could not figure out how that would work with a long freight train and some way to stop people from turning left or right on US 70 when you’ve got the train gates down. Mr. Campanella said that was the real hang-up as far as a more intense development in that area. 8:54:17 PM Mayor Stevens said there must be some way to do some conditional signaling that prohibited left turns. Ms. Hauth said there was such an intersection in Mebane, which had a sign that flipped up that read “No Left Turn – Train”, and it was totally dependent on the train. 18 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 19 of 24 8:56:21 PM Ms. Lacey said she wanted to get back to the issue of density. She said it had been said that one area would require higher density, which would probably be at least 11 units per acre, and possibly more over the entire site. Ms. Lacey said that was high density for Hillsborough, which was what they had been trying to get to in order to support transit. Now, she said, they were talking about a TOD and having a transit stop there, and wanted to make sure everyone understood that was very high density and completely opposite from what they had been asked to do, which was to lower the density. She said they had started out with 1295 units and were now down to 780, and were now being told the density was not high enough. 8:57:27 PM Mr. Campanella said he understood the confusion. He said what he and others had suggested was that in those pods, the density could go higher because they could support it. Mr. Campanella said he was reluctant to name a number, but the density could go quite high in those pods but be reduced dramatically in the yellow zone, especially in those areas where the topography would be visible from Churton Street or I-95. Not to mention, he said, that those areas were magnificent forest land, and the density should be reduced to just tucking in a few single-family homes into the woods. Mayor Stevens suggested that would be a good place for some high-end homes. Mr. Campanella agreed. Ms. Wallace suggested those homes could be placed on one-acre lots. 8:58:21 PM Mayor Stevens said with all that being said, where were they at this point. Ms. Wallace said she believed that what they were offering was not financially feasible for the Town. 8:58:46 PM Mr. Campanella asked did they really know that. He said if the developer was allowed to go higher with the density in pods A and part of the north end of the site, and really reduced the density on much of the central portion, could it still work. He said he did not want to make assumptions that it was not workable. Mr. Dye said he would have to spend some time studying that. He said he could tell them that if the TOD was there today, it may make more sense that it was eminent, but no one knew what the timing of that would be. Mr. Dye asked how you would plan it if you had E and F as a blank slate. He said would you make it a civic building that could convert to a train station at some point years from now. Mr. Dye said if you could justify that density but if that density did not happen for 20 years, then that timing was a huge consideration. 8:59:56 PM Mayor Stevens said from a timing perspective, there was no reason from the Town’s perspective that this had to be developed now. 9:00:31 PM Mr. Remington said in terms of the timing, they needed to be somewhat sure that it could happen fast enough to put all this together and get it going, but from what they were seeing that might not be the case. He said what would make them believe this would move fast when there were other developments that were moving exceeding slow or not moving at all. 9:01:24 PM Mr. Campanella said even without the rail station nailed down, he believed that pod in the north would be very successful to develop at high density because it was a 15-minute walk to downtown. He said it was only 5 to 10 minutes to the Weaver Street Market, and he 19 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 20 of 24 believed people would “kill” to live there. Mr. Dye said the orientation and redistribution was something they needed to take a look at and try to address. He said he would like to go back and challenge that internally. Mr. Dye said they had been told the Town did not want to see all single-family, $500,000 homes, and they had tried earnestly to avoid that. Also, he said, some of the other components such as affordable housing did not fit into single-family on one-acre of five-acre lots. Mr. Dye said there was nothing wrong with that, but it did change the dynamic of some of the other components of the plan, and they needed to look at that. He said the big elements he was hearing tonight were the need for a comprehensive financial or fiscal package that made sense for the Town, a combination of land and financial consideration for some of the other shortfalls, and then a redistribution of the density in areas that made sense. Mr. Dye said he wanted to address those global issues, and asked was that something that gave them a way forward. He said if E and F were the Town’s to do with as they pleased, then they would have a long time to plan for needs now and a TOD potential in the future. Mr. Dye said if B and D were rezoned, then they could condition first-floor retail, but they would need to see if today’s market would support that. He said they may not be able to build that now, but they could certainly plan for it now. Mr. Dye said he was willing to keep chipping away at the stone, and he had no desire to waste anyone’s time. He said they had already spent a lot of time on this, and appreciated the feedback received so far. He said he wanted to continue a positive dialogue based on that direct feedback, and they wanted to a make an honest effort to redistribute the density and come up with a finance package that made sense. But, he said, they needed to know if that was enough or was the feeling that the Town did not need it now; that there were some things they liked but didn’t really need and they were not compelled to approve it. Mr. Dye said that was another important aspect of this, and in the interest of the Town’s time and their time that needed to be answered. 9:05:32 PM Mayor Stevens said he believed that was an entirely fair question. 9:05:35 PM Ms. Ellis asked if they were going to build the residential units, or would some other developer do that. Mr. Dye said someone else would build them, but they would have control over that. Ms. Ellis asked would they be built to their specifications. Mr. Dye said to a certain degree, yes. He said they controlled how things would be laid out and how they would look, but ultimate approval was up to the SUP process. He said as the developer, they always maintained a level of control over the residential components of their plans. 9:06:31 PM Mayor Stevens asked the Board was it worthwhile for the applicant to come back with changes for pods E and F as well as a fiscal package. Mr. Dye said the two large issues for him was density or placement of density, and the fiscal package being more compelling. He said they had struggled to balance that, and he was willing to go back to their investors to say this is what it would take to make this compelling and to make them understand what that meant. 9:07:28 PM Mayor Stevens asked what the will of the Board was. 20 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 21 of 24 9:07:32 PM Commissioner Lloyd said she wanted free land for a fire and/or police station. 9:07:49 PM Mr. Remington said regarding the comment that the combination of very dense and very open housing would lead to high priced housing, wasn’t there some room in all that to have some areas for more modest housing on smaller lots, whether that was single-family or multi-family. He said it seemed to him that parts of C with the more northerly facing slopes, as well as the north part of H had areas that were not highly visible but not very steep and could accommodate that type of housing. Mr. Remington said he would challenge the notion that it had to be a combination of very upscale condos over live/work type units and then very upscale houses on large lots. 9:09:08 PM Mr. Campanella said he believed what was suggested was upscale housing on the larger lots. Mr. Remington said realistically the way the market worked was that such units over shops would go for a higher price. Mr. Campanella said he believed the residential units above the shops in Meadowmont in Chapel Hill were the most affordable units in the whole development. 9:09:42 PM Mr. Remington said if that was doable that might alleviate some concern, but believed there were places where there was still room for a mix other than just apartments over shops and large lot houses. 9:10:00 PM Mayor Stevens asked the Boards should the applicant be advised to come back. He said he believed the Boards wanted to see something more creative. Mr. Dye said to avoid another meeting, was that something that could be sent back through Ms. Hauth or Mr. Peterson; that is, a fiscal package and a redistribution to determine if there was a compelling reason to meet again or to decide whether to move forward or not. He said that might utilize everyone’s time more wisely, although he did not want to generalize the concerns. 9:11:25 PM Commissioner Lowen stated that would work for him, so that they could decide if it warranted further discussion. Mr. Dye said the current format was helpful, but it may be limiting to try to get 20 people together every time they wanted to talk about this. 9:12:14 PM Mayor Stevens said he saw nodding of heads in general agreement. 9:12:21 PM Ms. Wallace said if they were going to continue to talk about this project, she wanted to ask Ms. Hauth about the open space requirements. She said she wanted to make sure that was something they were thinking about. Ms. Hauth said that would be handled in the SUP process. She said she believed what Ms. Wallace was referring to was that the donation of the land south of the interstate would not count toward the open space requirement for any of the residential portions, and the applicant was hearing that. She said the applicants knew they would have to meet that 10% requirement at the SUP stage. 21 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 22 of 24 9:13:40 PM Mayor Stevens suggested that any other specific concerns be passed along to staff. He thanked the applicants for being present. The Mayor called for a short recess. 7.Determine If and When the Board is Interested in Conducting a Brainstorming Session at a Future Workshop to Develop Possible Ideas to Encourage and Make it Easier for Town Employees to Live in Hillsborough (Town Manager) 9:17:53 PM Mr. Peterson said this had been talked about for many years, noting there was only 9 of their 90 employees who lived in Town, and only 1 out of 26 Police officers lived in Town. He said while they had a lot of great employees who lived outside of Town, when you lived in Town you saw more of it and you interacted with citizens more. Mr. Peterson said although they would likely never reach a high percentage of employees living in Town, a mark of quality of service and the affordability of their community was how many Town employees they could get to live in Town. He said less than 10% was not desirable. Mr. Peterson said he had thought about the types of things they could do but did not want to debate that tonight. Instead, he said, in the next few months he would like to have a brainstorming session to get ideas from the Board and perhaps the department heads to see what ideas should be considered or discarded. Mr. Peterson said there may even be some things that could be considered in the budget, such as: ? Placing $100,000 of fund balance in an endowment, similar to a scholarship, and then every year letting that money gain interest. He said they could then allow employees to apply for funds who wanted to get part or all of the closing costs for homes paid for, or some other types of assistance to help employees move into Town. He said stipulations could be placed on that, such as having a good performance record or a certain length of employment, and that if you leave employment within a certain timeframe some or all of the funds would have to be repaid. ? Assisting Town employees in obtaining affordable homeownership. ? Allowing police officers to have take-home vehicles. He said in talking with Chief Birkhead and other police chiefs they said it may seem that the money was better spent elsewhere or it did not make sense, but a take-home vehicle was a very big deal to police officers. He said the incentive could be that take-home vehicles could be provided to police officers that lived within the Town limits. Mr. Peterson said those were just some of his concepts, and believed the Board should discuss those and other ideas now rather than waiting until budget time. 9:22:13 PM Commissioner Gering stated these ideas were very important, not only for police officers but for others who were serving the community in other capacities. He said it would certainly help to see more police officers on the road. Mr. Peterson agreed, noting that in other communities police officers were encouraged to use their vehicles to go to the grocery store, pick 22 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 23 of 24 up their dry cleaning, pick up their kids from school and the like, noting that had the same result as a decoy vehicle. 9:23:05 PM Mayor Stevens suggested putting this on the agenda as a Hot Topic for a workshop so it could be scheduled in. He asked Mr. Peterson if this was the kind of topic that would be useful to engage not only department heads but other staff as well, or should it be kept to a smaller group. Mr. Peterson said he would want to think about that, but at the very least department head should be included. He said perhaps departments could hold focus groups within their departments and get feedback on what it would take to get employees to move into Town. Or, he said, once the Board and the department heads came up with a list of ideas, those ideas could be given to employees in a survey for feedback. 9:24:14 PM Mayor Stevens said he had always believed to solve problems, go to the people most affected. Mr. Peterson agreed. He said whatever they did, it needed to be a long-term solution, and if they could encourage 10 or 15 people to move into the Town over the next ten or so years that would be a significant accomplishment. 8.Other 9:25:01 PM Mayor Stevens said he had been contacted by Leadership Triangle about nominating this Board or someone else for a Goodman Award and he would be following up on that next week. He said a Goodman Award was something sponsored by Leadership Triangle, named after Jim Goodman, and was usually given to people who had made advances in regionalism. Mr. Peterson said he believed Commissioner Dancy had been nominated for a Goodman Award. Mayor Stevens said she had been contacted about nominating the Town Board. He stated they usually made the award presentations during their December Board meeting. Mayor Stevens said should the Town actually win the award, they would need to appear at the ceremony, so they may need to reschedule their December meeting. 9.Closed Session to Discuss Property Acquisition in Multiple Locations. 9:27:42 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Lloyd, seconded by Commissioner Gering, the Board moved to enter into Closed Session by a vote of 4-0. The motion was declared passed. Upon returning to Open Session, and upon a motion by Commissioner Gering and seconded by Commissioner Lowen, the Board moved to authorize Town staff to retain agent by a vote of 4-0. The motion was declared passed. 23 October 22, 2007 Monthly Workshop Approved: December 10, 2007 Page 24 of 24 10.Adjourn Upon a motion by Commissioner Hallman, seconded by Commissioner Lowen, the Board moved to adjourn the meeting at 9:55 p.m. by a vote of 4-0. The motion was declared passed. Respectfully submitted, Donna F. Armbrister, MMC Town Clerk 24