HomeMy Public PortalAbout11-24-2008 Workshop Meeting
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
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Minutes
Board of Commissioners Monthly Workshop
November 24, 2008 at 7:00 p.m.
Town Barn
PRESENT:
Mayor Tom Stevens, Commissioners L. Eric Hallman, Mike Gering, Frances
Dancy, Evelyn Lloyd, and Brian Lowen.
STAFF PRESENT
: Town Manager Eric Peterson, Assistant Town Manager Nicole Ard,
Finance Director Greg Siler, Planning Director Margaret Hauth, Planner Stephanie Trueblood,
and Public Works Supervisor Ken Hines.
1.Open the Workshop
Mayor Stephens called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
2.Agenda Changes & Agenda Approval
7:01:14 PM Assistant Town Manager Nicole Ard stated that representatives of Corbinton
Commons were present to request a waiver from what was actually planned to what had already
been constructed.
Finance Director Greg Siler stated he would provide an update on Food and Beverage tax
accounts.
7:02:31 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Dancy, seconded by Commissioner Lloyd, the
Board moved to approve the agenda as amended by a vote of 5-0. The motion was declared
passed.
3.Committee Updates and Reports
7:02:43 PM Commissioner Dancy stated that the Board had received an email today from the
Town Manager dealing with the conditions of the State economy from TJCOG. She said
everyone was invited to the retirement celebration for Dee Freeman on December 17.
7:03:38 PM Commissioner Lloyd stated that the Fire Department had also met but she had
nothing to report.
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4.Discuss Issues and Future Steps to Prevent Future/Further Damage to Archaeology and
Landscapes in Hillsborough
An analysis of the issues, examples, and recommendations on this matter were recently
addressed in a case study prepared by Town resident and Trading Path Preservation Association
President Tom Magnuson. Mr. Magnuson has been invited to participate in this discussion and
his case study is attached. Town staff has prepared an attached memorandum that is a response
to Mr. Magnuson?s case study. The Board may wish to discuss this matter, and allow Mr.
Magnuson and Town staff to share any thoughts and/or suggestions they may have on how to
proceed with protecting Hillsborough?s archeology.
7:04:07 PM Town Manager Eric Peterson stated that he was sure everyone had read Mr.
Magnuson?s case study and the staff memo as well, and opened up discussion in any way the
Board would like to proceed.
Mayor Stevens proposed hearing a short presentation from Mr. Magnuson.
7:04:41 PM Tom Magnuson stated that it was generally accepted that the case study was fairly
accurate. He said the recommendations seemed obvious, but in hindsight he would add an
emphasis that the problem was the Town, or local government, because the biggest developer
and the biggest disturber of the soil system in Hillsborough was the Town.
Commissioner Lowen said he would say not the Town, but the County. Mr. Magnuson said he
would dispute that, because he had been told that any interference with utility crews in the Town
was not acceptable, and that they dug trenches daily. He said every time a trench was cut, that
was information being thrown away, and archaeology was about information and the sequence of
things in the ground. Mr. Magnuson said in a town as old as Hillsborough you were throwing
away information that was intangible but valuable.
Mr. Magnuson said he believed that if the Town was to be responsible for the subsoil, they
would have to set up a special group, perhaps through the Alliance or someone outside the Town
since the Town was the primary culprit and could not really dispute itself, so that there would be
someone to advocate for the dirt. And, he said he did not believe the Town could do that, and
there was no level of government, federal or state, that would put the archaeology ahead of the
immediate need to build something. Mr. Magnuson said the federal government did have an
exception through EPA regulations, but those were written in a manner that only applied national
values to the information.
Mr. Magnuson stated the first Black church site in Hillsborough had been destroyed because the
Department of Agriculture decided that a stream needed to be restored and no one protested. He
said his thinking was that there was no way government could police itself on such matters,
because the immediacy of a project would overwhelm the needs of the future. Mr. Magnuson
said the Town needed to identify a way to cooperate with a non-governmental body that would
become the official stewards of the soil, and the Alliance now had an umbrella group that did
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that. He said such a group should have the ability to declare land sensitive and require more
study before it was disturbed.
7:08:28 PM Commissioner Dancy said from the initial comment regarding the Town having to
dig up something, they would not wait if there was some emergency or infrastructure that needed
to be repaired. Mr. Magnuson said it appeared everything was an emergency, and normal
operating procedures were not emergencies. Commissioner Dancy said she looked at history and
all its layers of the soil on which things were constantly built on top of each other, so you could
not know what history was present among those many layers and trying to police and save
everything was impossible. Mr. Magnuson said they were not trying to save everything, just
what could be saved. He said you could not save everything because archaeology was inherently
destructive, that once you took soil out of the ground and analyzed it, it could never be put back
as it was found. Mr. Magnuson said when a construction project came along that had a
timeframe and was not an emergency, you should plan into the budget time and materials to dig
up the ground and extract the information before you destroyed the site, so that it was an
informative act. He said when a backhoe destroyed a site you got nothing but dirt.
7:10:18 PM Commissioner Dancy said she wanted to clearly understand what Mr. Magnuson
was trying to preserve, which she believed would be whatever historical value there was on
someone?s private property. Mr. Magnuson responded that State law would allow no one to
interfere with private property until you achieved a certain level of destruction. He said they
would like to think that Hillsborough property owners would be responsible and be proud of the
Town?s history, but altruism would not get the job done.
Commissioner Lloyd asked had Mr. Magnuson served on the Parks and Recreation Board when
Gold Park was considered and approved. Mr. Magnuson said that was correct, and he had asked
for the plans but could not get them. Commissioner Lloyd asked had he done any or suggested
any archeological work be done on that site. Mr. Magnusson replied yes, that due to his efforts
he had stopped the park from going through the Nash Mill. He said the park had originally
planned to go through that area with a 50 foot right-of-way.
Commissioner Lloyd said that one of the worse things that she could recall was the tearing down of the
Nash and Kollock School. Southern States wanted to buy the property and tear down the school in the
1940?s. The owners of the school didn?t want to sell and were taken to court. Southern States won and
The building was destroyed. In 1963 House Bill 299 was passed by the 1963 General Assembly of N.C.
Authorizing establishment of the Historic Hillsborough Commission and specifying its duties ,purposes
And membership . The Commission was to take as its chief province of interest and work the National
Historic Historic District of the Town of Hillsborough as delineated by the Division of Archives and
History and so entered on the National Register of Historic Places.
7:15:35 PM Mayor Stevens stated there were several recommendations contained in Mr.
Magnuson?s case study, one of which was to include some regulations in the ordinances and
enforce them. He said there was also a recommendation on a higher level, which was acquiring
some additional mapping because they did not know what they had. Mayor Stevens asked how
Mr. Magnusson would prioritize his recommendations, stating he agreed that having the County
library and office building on that old school site was unfortunate. Mr. Magnuson said as far as
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doable recommendations at little or no cost, he would suggest identifying where soil had been
cut away and where it had been filled, adding that could likely be done with trained volunteers.
He stated another would be to find out what remained, noting as you walked around Town you
could identify where the original sidewalks had been and the elevation of the original road beds.
Mr. Magnuson suggested finding out where those things were and putting them on a map as
being heritage landscapes.
Mayor Stevens said then a volunteer group could do that kind of work. Mr. Magnuson replied
that was correct.
7:17:06 PM Commissioner Hallman stated that sounded like it had a lot of parallels to the
discussion the Board had had with the Tree Board, when they had talked about surveying
historical trees for preservation on both public and private land. He said that perhaps the HDC
could be tasked with conducting some of the survey Mr. Magnuson was speaking of.
Mr. Peterson said that staff had prepared a response to Mr. Magnuson?s comments, and
suggested that the remainder of the discussion should be focused on where they went from there.
He said there may be some points that staff would want to make, but getting direction from the
Board as to what they wanted to do would allow staff to form a response as to what could be
accomplished.
Mr. Magnuson asked if the Board had the authority to direct its advisory boards, such as the
HDC, to do certain tasks. He said he believed the HDC needed direction because they had
refused consistently to take responsibility for subsoil. Mr. Magnuson said perhaps that was
outside their purview.
7:19:11 PM Planner Stephanie Trueblood, staff liaison to the HDC, stated that the HDC had
Standards of Evaluation in the Zoning Ordinance and Standard ?T? did allow protection of
archeological resources but only inside the historic district. She said they also had specific
Design Guidelines that included the protection of known archeological resources. Ms.
Trueblood stated one of the problems as Mr. Magnuson had indicated was that a lot of their
archeological resources were unknown and they did not have complete surveys or data, but she
believed the HDC had made efforts, specifically in regards to the County buildings, to talk about
archeological resources with the County and to uphold its Standards and Design Guidelines with
the information that was available during the testimony at the public hearing.
Ms. Trueblood said that the HDC was a quasi-judicial board so they accepted evidence at
hearings, but unfortunately Mr. Magnuson had not attended the HDC meetings where the County
buildings had been discussed, and believed his input could have possibly driven that process in a
different direction than it had gone. She said at the time, the HDC had been told that an
archeological team had surveyed the site and had found one historic archeological resource,
which was a kiln site, and that the parking lot had been moved in order to leave hat kiln site
undisturbed. Ms. Trueblood said that the HDC had commended the County for that action,
noting that no other testimony was given at the public hearing about what other resources were
on the site and believed that had been a shame.
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Mr. Magnuson asked had the County made that testimony. Ms. Trueblood responded it was a
representative of the applicant which was the architectural firm employed by the County. Mr.
Magnuson recommended that the Town should have a provision in the ordinance that the Town
would not take the word of a person who had a vested interest in the act, and that opposing
counsel should be sought when an interested party made testimony of that sort. He said the
County?s representative had said there was nothing else there, but there was a document in this
room which the archeologist had made which indicated there was much there and it should be
protected. Mr. Magnuson said as long as the dirt was not disturbed that was fine, but the County
had interpreted that drilling 500 wells in a little over a quarter-acre parcel was not disturbing the
archeology. He said an archeologist had not given the County that opinion, the architect had.
Ms. Trueblood reiterated that the HDC did have Design Guidelines and Standards that allowed
room for protection of archeological resources once they were known, and believed the HDC
would be willing to get some further training and education about such resources. She said the
HDC was responsible for reviewing applications for exterior changes, and believed some of the
disconnect in this case was with the wells, which were not considered as a part of the HDC
application because they were not considered structures. So, she said, what the HDC had seen
was a site plan with basically an undisturbed site behind the building with only some park
benches and sidewalks being located there. Ms. Trueblood said the Town did not regulate
building inspections so they had not seen the full set of building inspection plans, which was not
really the HDC?s responsibility although in this case having more input at the public hearing
would likely have steered the process differently.
Mr. Magnuson stated the current policy did authorize the HDC to go to the State Historic
Preservation Office for an opinion. He said the problem was that the State Historic Preservation
Office operated to National Parks Service guidelines, which established what constituted a
valuable historic item. Mr. Magnuson said unless some significant event had taken place on a
property the National Parks Service would not be interested in it, so it was up to the Town to take
responsibility for its heritage. He said it was not enough to bring in an outside expert and then
rely on them to save the Town?s heritage because what was important to Hillsborough may not
be important to anyone else. Mr. Magnuson said they had to develop a process to do that, and it
would not be easy because it was a new concept to most people.
7:24:26 PM Mayor Stevens stated that the HDC had the wherewithal to require an
archeological study or that identified archeological resources not be disturbed. He asked would a
survey by volunteers be useful to provide more guidance to the HDC. Ms. Trueblood said
certainly. Mayor Stevens said one concern raised in the staff memo was that such a survey
would need to be done by a licensed archeologist or to somehow be verified by a professional.
Ms. Trueblood stated it would be helpful to have the data be as accurate as possible because
there were economic implications to holding up development processes. She said she believed if
the HDC were presented with some sort of map or listing of key future development sites where
archeological studies should be requested, that the HDC would take that charge and
responsibility very seriously just as they did with all matters of preservation. Ms. Trueblood said
the HDC already had the tools to protect such sites by requiring further investigation and
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information gathering through its current Standards and Design Guidelines, but again that was
only within the historic district.
Mayor Stevens agreed, but said that would not help with the rest of Hillsborough. Mr.
Magnusson said to mitigate the possibility of damages, one of the things the Town should do
immediately was to promulgate the fact that any development in Hillsborough would be
considered in the light of Hillsborough?s heritage artifacts, so that everyone would understand.
He said further, the Town could identify where its archeological history was likely to be because
there was enough visible remnant to map where that archeology was likely to be. Mr. Magnuson
said you would not protect everything, only what was known to be sensitive. He said the only
level of protection was to look before you dug.
7:27:40 PM Planning Director Margaret Hauth stated she would like to clarify that they had
discussed this issue the last time Mr. Magnuson had attended a workshop and made these
recommendation, which was when he was telling the Town to be careful with the Riverwalk and
pursue a path on the south side. She said the Board had directed staff to put that on the list of
things to be studied in the Zoning Ordinance rewrite. Ms. Hauth acknowledged that time had
past and nothing had yet been done, but it was still on the list of things they intended to do
during the rewrite. She said if the Board wanted to place a higher priority on that then staff
would begin work on it sooner, although they were under the impression they had received
direction and the timeframe worked out was to do that during the rewrite.
7:28:41 PM Commissioner Lloyd asked as they moved forward with the Riverwalk project,
how soon it would be before they got on the south side of the river. Ms. Hauth responded if they
submitted a grant in January and were successful, then they would have to do the design so it
would be next fall at the earliest. Commissioner Lloyd stated then that would provide some time
to determine what archeological resources may exist on that side of the river.
Mr. Magnuson stated the Tourism Board had given him a grant to map the river bottom, and he
had taken that to include the banks as well. He said he had identified the corridor of sensitive
ground, and a sewer had been driven through there already. Mr. Magnuson stated if they stayed
on the sewer line nothing else would be damaged, but there were things along side that walkway
that you should be aware of so that you did not disturb it.
Mayor Stevens said he believed that was known and was being accounted for in the Riverwalk
design. Ms. Hauth responded that was correct, noting they would have an archeological study
done before construction began, unless the Board directed otherwise.
7:31:41 PM Mayor Stevens summarized that he was hearing three things, that it was proposed
that they could do a low-cost mapping to collect information of sensitive areas using volunteers
or perhaps the Tourism Board, that the Town?s ordinance include protection of sensitive areas,
and that a policy for Town construction activities be developed
Commissioner Lloyd stated that Mr. Magnuson had talked with the Waterstone people and had
looked over that property, and had done the same with the Boone-Collins property, and the Town
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appreciated that. She asked why Mr. Magnuson had not done those types of things while serving
on the Parks and Recreation Board. Mr. Magnuson said he had resigned from that Board
because he was not able to do what he believed needed to be done.
Ms. Hauth commented that providing directives through policies to staff regarding how the
Town would undertake construction projects would be much quicker than providing for that in
the ordinance, which would require research in order to apply it to private property.
Mayor Stevens said he did not believe the Board would make a statement at the present time.
Commissioner Gering stated that the process of figuring out what they would want to demand
from developers should be the minimum that the Town would do.
Mayor Stevens said then the Town should hold itself to at least that standard. Commissioner
Gering agreed, adding they should use the Ordinance as a starting point. Mr. Magnuson stated a
much higher standard should be the Town?s target.
5.Discuss Future Development Density as It Relates to the Zoning Ordinance Rewrite,
Water Capacity, and Other Issues
7:37:06 PM Commissioner Hallman said that it appeared that a variety of issues facing the
Town all had to do with density, including in-Town land use, infill, water capacity, growth
outside the Town, discussion of walkability and a transit oriented community, and also just
looking at what they were faced with regarding the tax rate over the next few years and whether
that could be spread out over a more dense population. He said he had realized the Board had
never had that type of discussion, and he had ended up with more questions than answers.
Commissioner Hallman said he wondered what were the trade-offs and implications, and if the
assumptions he had made were valid or not. He said after tonight?s discussion, he hoped they
would end up with some direction to staff to bring the Board back more information so that they
could come to some consensus on how they wanted to move forward, what was expected of
developers, and how they wanted to see the Town grow.
7:38:56 PM Mayor Stevens said he believed as part of their Vision Statement that they
absolutely wanted to preserve the small town character of Hillsborough, and the question was
what did that really mean and how would they achieve it, which all came down to the level of
density.
Commissioner Hallman stated one of his questions was what they would be facing over the next
few budget years and what shape the State would be in, and although there was nothing they
could do now that would really help them over the next two to three years, if they were looking
out five or six years was there justification for increased density and would that mean a reduced
cost of service. Mr. Peterson said it depended on a variety of factors.
7:42:35 PM Commissioner Hallman said he wondered if there were any models or studies that
showed that that was one way to offset some of that tax burden. He said if they were going to
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have a huge tax burden, then they would have a town where only a few people could afford to
live, or if they spread the burden out would that help; and, how they would then prevent sprawl.
Commissioner Hallman said if they decided to have more density in order to spread out the tax
burden, what would that mean? Mr. Peterson said that the Board may want to use an updated
map to see which developments were either committed or potential, and to see where they were
sited on the map. He said the assumptions they had been using were a combination of finances
versus the quality of life and how that would contribute to developments in Hillsborough. So, he
said, those were the scales they were weighing but there was a third element to weighing that out
and that was water capacity. Mr. Peterson said the Board looking at the map could say that a
development was not the type they wanted in a particular place, and begin to make trade-offs.
He said if the Board concluded that having a higher density development that was connected
with the rail/transit stop whenever that came in was something that they wanted and reserved
water capacity for that, then in order to have that kind of development something else would
have to go. Mr. Peterson said those were the tough decision that everyone in the community and
the Board would have to make; that is, what on the map did they plan to serve and what would
they get rid of. He said they had already made those types of choices, referring to the Preserve
north of Town. Mr. Peterson said he did not know whether having a future workshop and
studying an updated map with the water capacity study would be helpful.
Commissioner Hallman stated the Town had sent a message over the last few years that they
wanted less dense development and had removed some of the rooftops from Waterstone, but in
hindsight perhaps they needed a few more rooftops in order to get a little more property value
out of that development. He said when Ashland Hall had come forward they had reduced their
density as well, and wondered if that was indeed the message they wanted to send for that area or
for the Town as a whole. Commissioner Hallman said he believed they were sending conflicting
messages.
7:43:11 PM Commissioner Gering said he did not know what the answer was, but to him it
was whichever direction maximized the quality of life for residents and not simply providing
more space for more residents. He said at the end, quality of life had to be the biggest factor.
Commissioner Gering said having increased density at a transit node could increase the vitality
and improve the quality of life, but there were areas such as the historic district where that would
damage the character of the district and decrease the quality of life and the economic value that
went along with having a well preserved historic district. He said the answer was not clear to
him, but he could see how it could go one way or the other in different parts of Town.
Commissioner Hallman said he believed they needed to recognize that perhaps more land use
planning that was more specific to density was in order.
Commissioner Gering asked how you built density so that it did provide quality of life.
7:44:43 PM Commissioner Dancy said affordability was one of the key factors; that if areas
were more dense and affordable then people would come. But, she said, right now they were
dealing with a situation in the entire County that if they had homeownership then they had high
taxes, so who could afford to live in Hillsborough. Commissioner Dancy said when she had
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moved to Hillsborough, one reason was because there were homes available that she could afford
to purchase, but what about people coming in now. She said it appeared people would have to be
well off financially to be able to live in Hillsborough.
Commissioner Hallman said he did not believe the cluster development ordinance drove the kind
of development that they really wanted, that all it did was reduced density into a center and
provided green space around it. He wondered if there was something more innovative that they
could use that would give them the density but also give them a more appropriate design.
Commissioner Hallman said he had the sense that the market was changing, and people no
longer wanted small houses on ?postage stamp? lots. He said people also seemed to want to live
downtown, and that would mean condominiums in different settings. Commissioner Hallman
said he did not want to confine them to the traditional suburban sprawl or whatever, but that was
a density decision.
7:46:55 PM Commissioner Gering said the problem with the cluster subdivision ordinance
was that the way it was written did not encourage really compact dense development with
common space around it. He said it encouraged development like Kenyon Grove, which was
really just a reduced version of a Classic Homes subdivision.
Commissioner Hallman stated they could do better than that. Commissioner Gering agreed.
Commissioner Hallman said on the other hand they put more density in and they were not getting
a lot of high rate runs to address traffic issues, so what did that mean. He said the merchants
wanted more traffic through because it increased business, but there was a tipping point where
they had to avoid that. Commissioner Hallman said he only had questions and no answers.
7:47:51 PM Commissioner Dancy said from serving on the Tourism Board she believed
people wanted to live in Hillsborough because of the atmosphere and small town character, and
enjoyed the quaintness. But, she said, that was primarily in the downtown area. Commissioner
Dancy said looking at it from the visitors? points of view she believed condominiums downtown
would be appropriate on top of some of the buildings, and the central part was in the historic
district. So, she said, how to go about getting something in that area to keep it thriving was a
dilemma.
Commissioner Gering stated that Ms. Trueblood had just conducted a tour with the group that
was going to do the Wayfinding designs, and they had toured the historic district and seen the
different styles and sizes of homes on different sized lots as well as the lack of backyard fences.
He said you could really get a sense of place when doing that, and it was key to preserve that.
Ms. Trueblood stated the persons on the tour had been very impressed, and had believed the
Town had much to work with in terms of Wayfinding designs. She said from an historic
preservation standpoint, Hillsborough?s historic district was one of the earliest in the State,
created in 1973. Ms. Trueblood said the district lines were drawn around the original grid of the
Town, and within that locally designated district they did not have one type of house or one type
of lot, rather they had a very eclectic district. She said because of that it was difficult at times to
capture the character of the historic district in Hillsborough, and the HDC had prepared a
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character statement over a year ago that had tried to frame for the Town Board what it was about
the historic district that drew people in to live and to just walk around and what it was that raised
the quality of life in the historic district. Ms. Trueblood said on average the density in the
historic district was one density per 23,000 square feet of lot size, so it was actually a little larger
than what the Zoning Ordinance called for. She said if you reduced the density then it would
change the character of the district because they did have single family detached houses, and did
have a certain quality of materials that were fairly consistent through the historic periods and the
different phases of architectural heritage. Ms. Trueblood said they had natural materials in the
historic phases primarily because many materials were not available until after 1939, which was
their Period of Significance, and when it came to trying to capture what it was about the
character that made Hillsborough unique, it was the uniqueness and eclecticness of the different
types of houses as well as single family residences on residential lots. She said that was
something that had become very apparent when the HDC had prepared the character statement.
Ms. Trueblood said with that being said, she did believe there was some conflict when it came to
thinking about increasing density within the historic core, because it could potentially affect the
character of the historic district. She said that was a question the Town Board and perhaps other
stakeholders would need to answer; that is, how a change in density would affect what it was that
people liked about Hillsborough.
7:52:02 PM Commissioner Lowen said he did not want to see the density within the historic
district significantly increased. He said he knew that at some point they would have to increase
density in other parts of Town, but what the Town Board needed to do as a body was identify
were they wanted to see that happen. Commissioner Lowen said areas had been identified in the
Strategic Growth Plan where they expected development to take place, but they had not said how
much density they wanted to see in those particular areas. He said he believed the historic
district would always be unique as long as they did not take away from it.
Commissioner Lowen said if they really expected a train station to survive or to be a reality for
the Town, it would not happen with only 10 or 15 passengers a day, and such stations would
normally be placed around density. He said the Town Board needed to think about where that
density would happen because that would drive where the train station would be placed.
7:53:48 PM Commissioner Lloyd said when University Station had been discussed, it was to
be built around the railroad station. She said different models had been prepared by several
graduate students and many showed condominiums above different buildings, and asked were
any of those models still available. Ms. Hauth responded she may be able to locate at least some
information about those models. Commissioner Lloyd said she would be interested in seeing
those designs to see if any aspects of them were still valid. Ms. Hauth stated the Rail Station
Committee would be taking into consideration the developable land either within the Town?s
jurisdiction or outside it that could support the type of development that was needed to make a
train station viable.
7:56:08 PM Commissioner Gering said he believed a good study to undertake was what kinds
of possible developments would be appropriate around the Collins property, and they were
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anticipating the possibility of a train station. He said the question was what would a train station
look like there and what density would work there, and that was probably the best example they
could use for how to achieve higher density development.
Commissioner Hallman asked if the Land Use Plan was to a level that would guide them, or was
more detail necessary. Ms. Hauth said if you wanted to be very strategic about where density
would be placed, they may want to be more specific because there were ranges of different
density within the different land use categories in the Future Land Use Map. She said some of
them, such as where they had mixed use residential, did not speak to what the recommended
residential density was. Ms. Hauth said they probably needed to look carefully at various
neighborhoods and see whether there were obvious redevelopment possibilities or obvious infill
possibilities. She said that might mean taking someone?s two or three acres they were living on
with one house and documenting it in a plan that if they choose to sell that property then the
Town would want to see five units a acre rather than that one house stay. Ms. Hauth said when
you adopted a plan that was that specific you could start to impact people?s property values or
perceived property values. She said you might not want to be quite that specific but to say that in
a particular neighborhood where there were currently underdeveloped lots, the Town would
entertain requests for higher density on those lots at the time they redeveloped. Ms. Hauth said
but in the historic district, you may not adopt such a policy and say that they would rather not see
further subdivision of lots even if you could do it and meet the zoning.
Ms. Hauth said she had often thought they needed a smaller geography to look at the Town. She
stated they now had the parks districts on the Park Master Plan, and since that was based on
walkability and the idea that you could walk from the center to the edge without a major barrier,
those would make a nice geography to work from.
7:59:46 PM Commissioner Hallman said he had always been concerned about west
Hillsborough which had a lot of density, but there may be issues in preserving that density and
the way it worked and avoiding people tearing down and recombining.
Commissioner Gering stated that was a very good point, and what occurred to him was that the
historic district had faced those same density questions through applications for some time, and
he thought the HDC likely needed a stronger tool set in dealing with that because the current
Historic District Commission Guidelines had perhaps only one or two criteria for evaluation that
dealt with density and not in a very good way. He said he would like to get consensus from the
Town Board to request the Historic District Commission to focus on strengthening or refining
what they needed to define density in terms that could be applied to applications that preserved
the character of the district in terms of density, mass, and scaling.
8:01:19 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Gering, seconded by Commissioner Lloyd, the
Board moved to request that staff and the Historic District Commission evaluate its criteria in
terms of density, mass, and scaling within the historic district by a vote of 5-0. The motion was
declared passed.
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 12 of 30
8:01:52 PM Mayor Stevens stated that not only within the historic district but beyond, he had
started making a list of qualities and character the Board had discussed, and the most salient one
was a sense of place. He said that was what made the historic district what it was, and part of
that was architectural in the rhythm of the buildings and the land between the buildings. Mayor
Stevens said part of that was also lifestyle, and how people lived and worked together with
houses and lots of different sizes. He said it was perhaps some of those qualities that they would
want to apply not only to the historic district but to other places in Town. Mayor Stevens said
the eclecticism that happened within the historic district was the variety from other kinds of
neighborhoods. He said obviously with that mix was attractiveness and affordability, and that
affordability was not only to acquire property but the cost to continue to live on it, and they
needed to be thinking about the future and not necessarily the past because they could see a
future where green structures and transportation would be different. Mayor Stevens said that
may require some higher densities.
Mayor Stevens said how various neighborhoods connected was also a quality, so connectivity
had been added to his list. He said while preserving the historic district you would not want
rings of apartment buildings around it but some coherence between defined places that had a
sense of place and how they connected to one another. Mayor Stevens said there were other
qualities throughout various neighborhoods that tied the Town together, and one of those was
trees. He said if you were to ask people what was important in their neighborhoods, such as in
Cornwallis Hills, the answer was often the trees.
Mayor Stevens said he believed they had done a reasonably good job of asking developers to
address particular issues, but they had not necessarily addressed those quality of life issues in a
systematic way. He said that may be something the Town Board would want to do; that is, have
a standard checklist and to consider those quality of life issues when looking at development
applications.
8:05:32 PM Commissioner Gering stated he believed that was a great idea. He said from what
he had read in the past having that kind of detail could only help them, because it would give
people who wanted to consider making an investment in Hillsborough more confidence that what
they did would not be eroded or devalued by something the next person built.
Mayor Stevens said if the Town Board made a commitment to maintain that sense of place, to
have nodes around parks that were connections to amenities, and keeping the small town
lifestyle, then that was important and they may be doing that in new ways. He said it may look
similar in the historic district, but they needed to be thinking about the future and what that might
look like. Mayor Stevens said that of course, rail/transit oriented development might be a good
piece of Hillsborough future while it continued to be a small town.
Commissioner Hallman said he wanted to make sure they had some action items on the table that
could be moved forward. He said it had been mentioned that during the ordinance rewrite there
were specific things that could be included such as density requirements, and wondered if that
was the first step to take. Ms. Hauth said she believed so. She said at present the Zoning
Ordinance allowed 10,000 square foot lots, cluster developments and multi-family, but there was
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 13 of 30
nothing that talked about a detached single family or even an attached single-family product on
smaller than 10,000 square foot lots. Ms. Hauth said they had allowed that in the past as well as
different housing types in special use districts, but they had never laid out what they did or did
not want. She said for example, they now had some developments that had alleys.
Ms. Hauth said one of the reasons they had undertaken the ordinance rewrite was because it did
not identify the preferred types and provide a smoother path for preferred types. She said if they
were going to find a way to make the ordinance recognize preferred types, then that had to be put
down in words or pictures of what it was they wanted, and density and the range of density was
one of the backbones of that. Ms. Hauth said that range of density would be different in different
areas of Town, and they needed to determine what was acceptable and where. She said a
discussion of that and other topics really needed to begin.
8:08:55 PM Commissioner Hallman said he needed to be more educated on such things as
zero setbacks and how that allowed different designs, and what alternatives to that might look
like.
Commissioner Lowen said he would advocate a field trip where the Board went out and viewed
examples of zero setbacks or whatever. He said once they had a picture in their heads, they
could sit down and discuss what they really wanted to see in particular areas of Town.
Mayor Stevens asked Ms. Hauth to provide some suggestions to the Board on what some of the
mechanisms and ranges might be in regards to density. He said he believed they needed to be
very specific about locations and neighborhoods, and if they were going to have a density
ordinance then they needed to be thinking creatively about that. Ms. Hauth agreed that examples
would be helpful, and said the staff may be able to provide a virtual tour by going out and taking
a series of photos or taking information from Web sites of the top ten selling subdivisions in the
State over the last five years, for instance. Ms. Hauth asked when the Board would like to see
something back.
Commissioner Gering asked what timeline would support working that into the Zoning
Ordinance rewrite. Ms. Hauth said she would see what could be put together for the Board?s
December meeting. Commissioner Gering said sooner was better, of course. Ms. Hauth said
they would begin the rewrite in earnest in January, so December would be better. Commissioner
Gering said he wanted to make sure they were not impeding the rewrite schedule.
Commissioner Lloyd thanked the staff for putting together the memo, noting it was well written
and very informative.
8:13:19 PM Mayor Stevens said he wanted to also thank the members of the Historic District
Commission who were present this evening, and that he looked forward to hearing back from
them regarding the request that the HDC evaluate its criteria in terms of density, mass, and
scaling within the historic district.
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 14 of 30
6.Meeting with Representatives from the Orange County Economic Development
Commission
8:13:41 PM Anita Badrock, EDC Chair, stated that Commissioner Hallman was the Board?s
liaison to the EDC and had suggested that they come and speak to the Board to get some ideas
and have a dialogue about how the EDC could be of service to the Town of Hillsborough. She
said they were there to listen, and although the Executive Director was not present she knew he
was interested in collaborating more closely with the Town. Ms. Badrock said she had been
impressed and surprised by the amount of economic development going on in the Town, and saw
great opportunities for the EDC to learn from the Board and to assist and support the Board.
8:15:01 PM Commissioner Hallman stated they were glad to have Ms. Badrock on board with
the EDC, noting this was a pivotal time and they had all acknowledged that the EDC and
economic development in Orange County was perhaps intentionally hampered, or not set up, to
succeed too well. He said there had always been tension between how to support the agricultural
side and the anti-growth sentiment. Commissioner Hallman said with Mr. Broadwell and Ms.
Badrock on board he believed they had a chance to go to the Orange County Commissioners and
say what they wanted to accomplish. He said they had set a strategic goal four years ago to bring
in 5,000 new jobs into the County, and they were not doing very well with that. Commissioner
Hallman said if you looked across the County at the residential tax base it was supporting 85% of
the County?s budget, and that was a huge burden.
8:16:45 PM Mayor Stevens asked if Ms. Badrock had any questions for the Board or anything
specific she wanted to hear from the Board. Ms. Badrock responded that one question was what
kind of service they really needed by the EDC office in Orange County. She said she had talked
with Mr. Broadwell about having regular communication with Ms. Hauth, and that she be
included in any monthly updates regarding what was happening with the County Commissioners
so that she would remain aware of their work. Ms. Badrock said that Mr. Broadwell would also
have regular meetings with economic development partners in the County and Ms. Hauth should
also be included in that so that there was more collaboration.
Ms. Badrock stated that she had the sense that the commitment to quality of place in
Hillsborough was somewhat different from other municipalities within the County, and that was
a unique aspect of Hillsborough. She said she believed the EDC Director should understand that,
as they began to formulate a strategy for the County to decrease the tax burden on residential
properties and development in all their different areas that helped to accomplish that because by
far the largest part of the tax bill was the County tax. Ms. Badrock said it would be helpful for
the EDC to understand what types of economic development the Town was seeking so that the
right kind of referrals could be made.
Ms. Badrock said another component of that was to put things in place that strengthened and
developed the existing business infrastructure, and that was one area that would be very
important for the future. She said they could not control what happened nationally or globally,
but they did have a lot of impact on what happened locally and believed they could come
together to support and encourage and benefit from one another to make sure the fundamentals
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 15 of 30
were in place so that the current economic downturn was not quite so severe in Orange County.
Ms. Badrock said her goal was to see the EDC Director support communities in their own efforts
and to be a resource in a better way than had been done in the past.
8:20:22 PM Commissioner Gering stated Ms. Badrock had used a term he had not heard
before, and that was business infrastructure. He said it would help the Board if they understood
the elements that were important to it and what elements may be missing. Ms. Badrock said she
worked as a recruiter to help businesses relocate to the County, and one asset was that the
County had locations along major corridors and an incredibly well-educated population that was
posed for the types of jobs that were already here as well as those that may be coming. She said
the educational system, along with the addition of Durham Tech, would really make a difference
st
in terms of their ability to train employees for the green technology future and 21 century jobs.
Ms. Badrock stated they did have a lot of office space as infrastructure that was either on-line or
was coming on-line that would be very important. She said in fact, she believed it was
somewhat of a concern to some in the County because they believed they currently had office
space that with the current economic conditions could take nearly five years to fill if they were
not careful. Ms. Badrock said the municipalities in general had a robust and well-defined
water/sewer infrastructure, and the County had an incredible tourism industry which was a huge
component of the economic development strategy in the County. She said they had not only
heritage tourism but athletic tourism and agricultural tourism. Ms. Badrock said some of the
discussions would be of ways to capitalize on some of the assets that were already present.
8:23:08 PM Commissioner Gering asked what they were missing that needed to be included.
Ms. Badrock replied she had not studied Hillsborough as much as she would have liked, but a
couple of things she had heard was they did a good job of helping a creative class create a new
business but could not stay here because they did not have the kind of infrastructure, or large
enough spaces, to help them grow. She said that was one area where the economic development
districts could be helpful. Ms. Badrock said if there was a silver lining to what some would
perceive as frustratingly slow progress was that they now had some of the largest tracts of
undeveloped land in the Triangle area that were posed for development and could be the kind of
development they wanted. She said she also heard from employees that there was still some
disconnect between the skill set that employers were looking for and what employees actually
had in certain market sectors. Ms. Badrock said she believed they were still a community that
had a broad range of employee options for people throughout the skills spectrum, and they
needed to be looking at the kinds of jobs that the community college system could help them
educate and train people to fill that were good paying jobs. She said she had also heard that the
development process was still quite difficult for a lot of people, and that sometimes the
development ordinances seemed to be in conflict with some of their stated goals.
8:25:31 PM Mayor Stevens said if was helpful to hear that. He said they were pleased to have
the community college now opened, and asked were there ways as a Town for them to work
more closely with the community college. Ms. Badrock said one of the work groups that the
EDC had identified in its five-year strategic plan was a work force work group, and they had
done a lot of work to understand where the existing work force was in terms of skills and
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 16 of 30
capabilities. She said one of her goals during her tenure would be to work on those strategic
goals, and hoped that the Town would want to participate in that to help them understand what
was available in Hillsborough and what kind of work people were seeking, and what did their
entrepreneurs need to be successful. Ms. Badrock said those were the kinds of things the Town
Board was better equipped to answer than those that were a degree removed from local Town
government. She said another goal was for the EDC and the Town Board to have an annual joint
meeting and to have regular briefings of what was going on with the Town.
8:27:42 PM Commissioner Lowen asked how the EDC for the County work with
representatives from the State, noting he had heard that the State encouraged businesses to locate
here through tax incentives and the like. He said they had a lot of acreage available and
wondered if that was an incentive. Ms. Badrock said one of the EDC?s goals was to make a
recommendation to the County Commissioners regarding economic development incentives, and
if they needed to have them what kind did they need to be. She said the NC Department of
Commerce and the Research Triangle Research Partnership (RTRP) both said they still were not
on the radar screen; that is, there was still some perception whether real or otherwise that Orange
County was not really interested in economic development. Ms. Badrock said they were
working hard to change that perception, but it was still there, and Mr. Broadwell would be
working to change that as well.
Commissioner Lowen asked what the Town Board could do as an elected body along with
perhaps a collaborative effort with Chapel Hill and Carrboro to accomplish that. He said he
agreed that the feeling in Raleigh was that Orange County did not really support economic
development, and when big companies came to the State they were steered in other directions.
Ms. Badrock said she did not know the size of properties located in and around Hillsborough that
were available for development, but she would say to encourage the kind of development they
wanted and discourage the kind they did not want. She said the way to encourage that might be
through a preferential permitting process, which was an incentive that was not about money but
about time which was valuable to developers. Ms. Badrock stated an expedited review process
and a central stop permitting process was a way to say what the Town wanted.
Ms. Badrock said another thing was that the County Commissioners recently discontinued
funding their contribution to the RTRP, and that Partnership was an incredibly effective 13-
County group that recruited businesses for the region and worked to help businesses expand.
Ms. Badrock said dues were based on population as well as different tiers based on whether you
were a rich county or a poor county, and evidently Orange County was considered in the rich
county category. Ms. Badrock said the EDC had made a proposal to the County Commissioners
that the EDC would try to raise half of the dues privately if they would commit to the other half,
and believed there was some interest and desire to do that. She said both Chambers of
Commerce were really concerned about not participating in the RTRP, as well as the
University?s EDC officer, because more traffic came through the RTRP than through the NC
Department of Commerce.
Ms. Badrock said one thing the Town Board as an elected body could do was to say they
believed membership in the RTRP was important, and that such a statement would carry some
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 17 of 30
weight and would be money well spent. Ms. Badrock said there were some economic
development incentives for which they would not qualify for State money because they were
considered a rich county, but there were some economic development incentives that the State
automatically offered certain businesses if the County would match them, but if the County
would not match them then those businesses would bypass a county that did not offer matching
funds. Ms. Badrock said many of those businesses were ones that would be investing between
$500,000 and $5 million dollars, which was a ?sweet spot? that the County had identified, and if
the County had some funds available to match what the State automatically offered that would be
very helpful.
Ms. Badrock said she was excited about the opportunity to work with the Town Board, noting
that economic development in all parts of the County helped everyone, and if some could be
sited in Hillsborough that would be a double benefit.
Mayor Stevens agreed there were huge opportunities here that could be good for the County as
well as the Town.
8:35:11 PM Commissioner Gering thanked Ms. Badrock and the EDC for its help in regards to
the Waste Transfer Station Task Force. Ms. Badrock said they had appreciated the invitation to
participate in that, adding that the Town Board had helped to identify something that she was
shocked to have seen in their economic development ordinance which was that it allowed that
kind of facility to be sited in an economic development district. She said they had spent a lot of
time pushing economic development to certain areas of the County, and that land was very
valuable to everyone and they needed to be careful how they used it. Ms. Badrock said one
unintended consequence of all that was that they had increased the value of the land in the
economic development districts by being somewhat slow to develop it, and they did not want to
degrade that.
7. Presentation of Preferred Alternative for the Required Long Range Transportation
Plan (LRTP)
8:37:18 PM Ellen Beckman, Transportation Planner in the City of Durham for the Durham-
Chapel Hill Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO), stated that Hillsborough was a member
of that MPO. She provided a brief overview of the 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan,
noting that if the Town Board wanted to provide input to the MPO regarding the LRTP now was
the time to do so.
?
The LRTP listed all the transportation projects through the year 2035 in all modes using
State and federal funding.
?
It was developed through a two-year process; they had made socio-economic projections,
looked at where deficiencies would be in the network in the future, and then developed
alternatives to address those deficiencies.
?
They had identified preferred options using four different scenarios.
?
The Transportation Advisory Board was poised to approve the LRTP as its December
th
10 meeting.
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 18 of 30
?
The LRTP had to be fiscally constrained, so they had to show they could afford it;
projects had to be included in order to receive funding through the State Transportation
Improvement Program; also helped towns and the State to preserve rights-of-way for
future projects.
?
Included in the LRTP was a brief page on the Comprehensive Transportation Plan (CTP)
which was the State plan, and was more than a wish list and you did not have to show
that you could afford it; and, if projects had to be removed from the LRTP that was likely
where they would be listed, but you could still legally preserve the rights-of-way.
?
One highlight of the report was Section 2, the financial plan, and on page 2-6 it indicated
they were over budget from $400 million to $1.4 billion, depending upon the transit
scenario, so they were going to have to cut projects, and where they were really over
budget was in the highway section.
?
The rail transit assumed some new revenue through sales tax or an increase in the vehicle
registration fee.
?
Section 3 was the list of highlight projects and included a map.
?
Section 4 was the transit projects with four scenarios: bus transit only, commuter rail,
diesel multiple unit/light rail, and all electric light rail.
?
The next section was bicycle and pedestrian; the MPO had a comprehensive bicycle and
pedestrian network and policy that they wanted to include on all roads where practical.
?
The last section was other transportation projects, such as transportation demand
management which would include getting people to carpool, intelligent transportation
systems (ITS) that would help the system better operate such as the use of message
boards, and transportation system management (TSM) which were small projects such as
intersection improvements and turn lanes that would impact the efficiency of the system.
Ms. Beckman said because they were over budget for highways they would need to cut some
projects, and there were a number of highway projects in Hillsborough in the LRTP. She said
the one that actually went through Hillsborough was the commuter rail option, and one thing to
note was that at the last Transportation Advisory Committee meeting they had endorsed the all
white rail option, which was also endorsed at the joint TAC meeting between the Capital Area
MOP and the Durham-Chapel Hill MPO, so that was what they would be pursuing. Ms.
Beckman noted that just because something was not in the LRTP it could be moved into the CTP
as a longer term project. She said as you could see on the map, there was also more local bus
service and express bus service that would serve Hillsborough.
Ms. Beckman stated they would be presenting an option to the TAC at its December 10 meeting,
and some local boards had chosen to submit resolutions or letters that expressed their likes or
dislikes and if the Town Board wanted to do that, they could do so now.
8:47:19 PM Ms. Hauth said the Planning Board had discussed the LRTP at its meeting
Thursday night and because there was little time to prepare comments she wanted to share what
the Planning Board had looked at. She said it was important to note that the tables in the booklet
provided to the Town Board did not list the projects in priority order but were listed in
alphabetical order. Ms. Hauth said what the Planning Board had recommended in terms of cuts
or deletions relative to Orange County was that the I-40 widening from NC 86 to the NC 85 split
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 19 of 30
was unnecessary, and that the I-85 widening was unnecessary except for the two specific
interchanges in Hillsborough and possibly a few safety improvements that may come along with
those interchanges. She said the Planning Board recommended that if further cuts were still
needed, then to refer to their priority list and cut from the bottom up.
Ms. Hauth stated if the Board would like to see that in the form of a letter or a resolution, she
could have that prepared for the Board?s December 8 meeting although that would be very close
to the deadline for comments.
8:49:11 PM Ms. Beckman pointed out that the possible rail station in Hillsborough, if served
by Amtrak, was not in the plan. She said if the MPO adopted the light rail option that did not
include commuter rail service to Hillsborough but that did not preclude there being intercity rail
service to Hillsborough.
Commissioner Gering asked would there need to be different rails. Ms. Beckman responded
they would be on the same rails but the service would be different. She said Amtrak went up and
down the eastern seaboard, whereas the commuter rail would only serve the limited area.
Mayor Stevens said with the light rail option, there had been talk about using the right-of-way
from NC Railroad, but that would not be extended to Hillsborough under the current plan. Ms.
Beckman agreed, but said perhaps that could be added to the CTP, to eventually extend the light
rail to Hillsborough.
Commissioner Hallman said then if it was not in the LRTP, it had to be in the CTP in order to
eventually be put back into the LRTP. Ms. Beckman said that was correct, noting the next step
would be to put it in the TIP, which was the document that detailed what they would spend
money on over the next seven years. Commissioner Hallman said that the Hillsborough multi-
model center was listed in the plan, and asked was that the train station. Ms. Beckman said that
was the TIP regional priority list. Commissioner Hallman said didn?t that need to be put in the
plan to have any chance of being funded. Ms. Beckman said it was her understanding that the
answer was yes, but she had noticed that none of the Amtrak service was listed which was either
an oversight or that for some reason those projects did not need to be included. She offered to
check on that to make sure prior to the December meeting.
8:52:02 PM Commissioner Hallman said to be sure he understood, the cost of highway
projects had to be balanced before the plan went forward; that is, that cuts needed to be made.
Ms. Beckman stated yes, that staff was currently doing that. Commissioner Hallman asked how
they allocated that between Division, 5, 7 and 8. He said that Orange County had two interstates
running through it which should carry some weight. Ms. Beckman stated she had not seen the
breakdown of how that was split by division, how the total cost or revenues were split by
division, or how the possible cuts were split by division. She said she would check with Andy
Henry about that.
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 20 of 30
Commissioner Hallman asked would this go in before DOT went forward with its expected
changes. Ms. Beckman stated that NCDOT did not approve this plan, although it did approve
the CTP.
8:53:39 PM Ms. Beckman stated the Plan was updated every four years, so if something was
in the plan and conditions changed, then the update would provide the opportunity to reset
priorities.
Commissioner Hallman asked if the elected bodies would have an opportunity to weigh in on the
cuts staff was proposing prior to the December meeting. Ms. Beckman responded no, that the
TAC staff had met today to discuss some of the proposed cuts, and the staff recommendations
would be presented to the TAC on December 10, who had the option to approve it in December,
but could choose to delay approval based on input from local governments.
Mayor Stevens asked was that something the Board should think about requesting.
Commissioner Hallman said certainly if some of Hillsborough?s projects were cut.
Ms. Hauth asked if the recommended cuts would be available by this Board?s December 8
meeting so they could discuss them. Ms. Beckman responded it should be available a week prior
to the December 10 meeting. Ms. Hauth stated that could be an item for the Town Board?s
December meeting to give them the opportunity to see and comment on what the TAC staff
recommended.
Mayor Stevens said he saw nodding of heads in agreement to include that on the Board?s
December 8 agenda for discussion.
Ms. Beckman pointed out there was a public workshop/open house tomorrow in this room at
7:00 p.m. to allow people to review the plan and ask questions. She added there would be no
presentation at that workshop.
8. Other
Financing Proposal for Water/Sewer Equipment Purchases
8:56:50 PM Mr. Siler said that Kenny Keel had approached him a few weeks ago about the
possibility of purchasing sewer equipment items before an anticipated price increase scheduled
to take place the first of December. He said with that in mind, he had gotten an RFP out to the
banks immediately requesting a bid on financing those items. Mr. Siler said there were two
pieces of equipment, a sewer back-in trailer and a sewer TV camera system, for a combined cost
of $160,000. He said five bids were received, with RBC being the lowest bidder with a 3.28%
interest rate on $160,000 for five years. Mr. Siler said if that was favorable to the Board, then he
would like for the Board to formally accept that bid through a motion.
8:58:24 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Lowen, seconded by Commissioner Dancy, the
Board moved to approve the financing proposal from RBC Bank at 3.28% interest on $160,000
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 21 of 30
over five years to purchase a sewer back-in trailer and a sewer TV camera system by a vote of
5-0. The motion was declared passed.
Mr. Siler said to a small degree, what had motivated RBC to be somewhat more competitive with
the Town was that they had recently placed a half-million dollars on deposit with them in order
to spread out the Town?s investments, and in the coming weeks they would be presenting an
investment policy proposal to the Board regarding investing with the various banks.
Update on Food and Beverage Enforcement
8:59:14 PM Mr. Siler said the Board would be pleased to know that the one business who had
written the Town a check which they were somewhat fearful of had been accepted by the bank
and did not anticipate that it would be returned. Mr. Siler said the Attorney had written one letter
to M&M asking them to stop operating their business immediately until such time that they had
caught up on payment of their food and beverage tax. He said apparently that letter had gotten
their attention and M&M had been in touch with them and that penalties had continued to
st
accumulate. Mr. Siler said when they had spoken to M&M on Friday, the 21, after having
submitted all their reports to date it was determined they owed the Town $2,681. He said the
bulk of that was penalties and interest, noting M&M?s food and beverage tax was on average $50
a month, so they had done themselves a grave disservice by not paying on time.
Mr. Siler stated that had caused hardship for them, and he had asked the owner, Michael Rose, to
put in writing what his intentions were, and Mr. Rose actually had a request of the Board. He
st
said Mr. Rose had on the 21 paid $550 to bring the balance down to $2,132, and had stated that
he would from that point on get his reports in and the taxes paid on time. Mr. Siler said that Mr.
Rose wanted to request that the Town work out a payment arrangement on the remaining
balance, and that he could pay approximately $200 a month over the next ten months.
Commissioner Lowen said he had not been able to pay the $50 a month. Mr. Siler stated they
had been making the payment, but had not been submitting the report. He said that had left the
Town unable to determine if the amount of the payment was the amount owed. Mr. Siler said
Mr. Rose had apologized sincerely for having lost control of the finances of his business, and
noted that Mr. Rose had not stopped operating his business and continued to operate in spite of
the letter that asked him to cease operations. He said that Mr. Rose had indicated that he could
not pay the Town what was owed if he shut his business down.
9:02:27 PM Commissioner Gering said one of the basic problems was that the Town could not
pull his license because he did not have one. Mr. Siler said that was correct, adding Mr. Rose
had sent in a check months ago in an attempt to get a privilege license, but one had not been
issued because M&M had not satisfied the tax requirements. So, he said, they were in a position
to actually be issued a license now that they had been in contact with the Town and were willing
to pay their debt.
9:03:14 PM Commissioner Hallman said he would like to see their bank statements to see if
they could make such a payment. He said he did not want to string this out over nearly a year
November 24, 2008 Monthly Workshop
Approved: January 12, 2009
Page 22 of 30
and end up trying to collect later, and suggested collateralizing it to assure that the payments
would be made.
Commissioner Dancy asked was the check issued to the Town a good check. Mr. Siler said yes,
although there had been one check returned in the past. Commissioner Dancy asked how the
$550 payment been made. Mr. Siler said with cash.
Mr. Peterson said an option the Board could consider would be to allow them to do the payment
schedule as requested with the condition that the first time a payment was late then the entire
balance would become due immediately. He said the Attorney would then put back into effect
the order to cease operations and then go to court if necessary.
Mayor Stevens said he would support that.
Commissioner Lloyd asked what about the other two businesses that had been of concern. Mr.
Siler said the other two had paid before the deadline, so they were now cleared. He said of
course there had been a write up in the newspaper regarding this issue so businesses were now
aware that the Town would take action if they failed to pay.
Mayor Stevens said he believed the Board was accepting of Mr. Peterson?s suggestion to allow
Mr. Rose to do the payment schedule as requested with the condition that the first time a
payment was late then the entire balance would become due immediately. There was no
objection from the Board.
Commissioner Gering said the Tourism Board at its retreat identified one of their priority items
was to work with the Finance Director on the process for collecting the meals tax in a way that
would result in better compliance and assured that they were getting the moneys that were due.
He said the Tourism Board would be contacting him to discuss that so that it did not become too
burdensome. Mr. Siler commented the process was already burdensome. Commissioner Gering
said the Tourism Board may have to come before the Town Board to discuss it and see if
priorities needed to be adjusted and if additional funds over the 5% that came from the meals tax
could be collected to pay for administrative costs.
Update on Corbinton Commons Streets
9:08:40 PM Public Works Supervisor Ken Hines said he had been contacted by the
S.T.Wooten Corporation, the contractor for Corbinton Commons, on Thursday and they had
requested that he come on site. He said he had done so, and had met with the Wooten
superintendent who had informed him that the curb and gutter system already in place was
narrower than the original design plans. Mr. Hines said today he had gone back to the site to
measure and determine just how narrow the pavement would actually end up being. He said if
everything was done perfectly, the total lane width would be close to 22 feet. Mr. Hines said he
had measured in 150 foot increments to see exactly what the width was. He said the most
narrow measurement he had taken was 20 feet, 9 inches which was roughly 1 foot, 3 inches
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narrower that it should have been. Mr. Hines provided the Board with a handout that showed the
measurements taken and the increments.
Mr. Hines said it appeared that six to seven inches narrower appeared to be the norm, and that
the 1 foot, 3 inches was the worst case. He said what was affected in addition to lane width was
the storm drain inlet. He displayed a photo of the catch basin, noting that the curb and gutter had
been spaced further out to provide for a more direct flow of water down into the storm drain
system. Mr. Hines said he had asked that a water truck be brought out, and that truck had been
able to release 30 gallons of water per minute to see the effect, and there was no difficulty with
that at all and in fact could likely have been doubled without any problems. His point, he said,
was that even though it was not constructed to plan there should not be any problems in a storm
situation.
Mr. Hines said he had also taken photos of two large pick-up trucks just to show how they could
fit in the narrower lanes. He said they were about 1½ feet away from the curb and gutter, and the
photos showed the distance between the truck mirrors as they passed, which was about three feet
apart. Mr. Hines said Wooten was requesting that before the paving operation began that the
Town be willing to accept the narrower road width.
9:12:50 PM Commissioner Lloyd asked if a fire truck could get through with no difficulty.
Mr. Hines stated he had witnessed the water truck pulling up beside his truck, and there was still
plenty of clearance. He said he had actually driven by a full-sized road scraper with a large
blade in front and he was able to get by him without getting too close to the curb and gutter
itself. Mr. Hines said he had consulted with a local DOT engineer to get his opinion, and that
engineer had indicated that the narrower width was okay as long as the slag widths remained
above 10 feet, which they had everywhere.
9:13:42 PM Mayor Stevens asked was there parking allowed along those roads. Mr. Hines
replied not to his knowledge.
Commissioner Gering said that on-street parking would be allowed at least on one side. Ms.
Hauth stated that was something the Board could control at the time it accepted the road. She
said if they felt strongly that it needed to be no parking on the street then that was within the
Board?s control and they only had to install the signs. Ms. Hauth stated this was in an area
where many of the homes were served from driveways that led to alleys except on the far side of
the curb, and not everyone had a driveway because some of the houses were at a higher level
than the street. She said that in some places you may have garbage cans on the curb but in others
you would not.
9:15:17 PM Mr. Peterson said that he was less concerned about how this had happened than he
was figuring out what they could do to protect the Town in the future. He said it seemed like
there was an incentive for people to gain the system although he was not saying this was done
intentionally. Mr. Peterson said 3 inches did not matter much, but when you took a foot and 3
inches that was quite a savings in asphalt over a stretch of road. Mr. Peterson said it would be
interesting to ask the Town Attorney to discover if there was a way that if people did not meet
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the standards that they ended up having to pay the Town a fine or liquidated damages or
something of that sort to act as an incentive. He said the Town?s interest was getting the road
built the way it should be built.
Mr. Peterson said when he had first seen the pictures provided by Mr. Hines, his thought was
how many people actually drove that close to the curb, and how many would be on cell phones
and veering in and out of lanes while driving. To him, he said, they may not have any choice but
to go ahead and accept the narrower width given the circumstances, but they should definitely try
to prevent it happening in the future.
9:17:01 PM Commissioner Gering said even in this case, he would like to consider what
compensation the Town might be able to recover for this. He said as Ms. Hauth had pointed out,
if no parking was allowed then the Town would have to put up signs indicating that, which was
an expense although a small one.
9:17:47 PM Trent Satterfield, with Satterfield Paving, said that if they needed to put up the
signs then they were willing to do that. He said they could possibly do some striping as well if
recommended by the Town.
9:18:02 PM Commissioner Lowen said that no parking on both sides of the street would be
prohibitive if homeowners had visitors, but it should be limited to one side only and that side of
the street should be striped so that people were aware. He said that should be at the contractor?s
expense if the Town was to allow the streets to be accepted.
Commissioner Lloyd stated they needed to think about garbage cans in the street, as well as
emergency vehicles coming in and out. She said cars parked on the street would be at risk to be
sideswiped.
Mr. Peterson said if there were to be no parking signs, a homeowner would not want their curb to
be littered with such signs. He asked would it be appropriate to have those signs posted at the
entrance and exit of an area. Ms. Hauth said she did not know if there was a particular distance
that a street needed to be signed in order to legally allow ticketing. She said she also did not
know if a sign that read ?no parking from here to corner? would be interpreted the same way by
everyone, so they would need to research that.
Commissioner Lowen said the contractor had agreed to do it and they should be held accountable
for it, adding it would be extremely expensive to tear the street up and redo it. But at the same
time, he said, they would end up saving money because there would be less asphalt used.
Commissioner Gering said a $20,000 contribution to parks and recreation would help to mitigate
that.
9:21:15 PM Mayor Stevens said he could appreciate that mistakes did happen, and there were
narrower roads in Town. But on the other hand, he said, just letting it go would send the wrong
message. Mayor Stevens said if the Town were to defer this until the December meeting and
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allow the Town Attorney to offer his advice, would that be preferable, or did the Board want to
go with the suggestion already made.
Mr. Peterson said he was not familiar with what the repercussions or implications might be.
Ms. Ard stated the contractor was actually asked to stop work last summer, and they were
required to check in with the Town through each step of the process. So, she said, the Board
could ask them to cease operations.
9:22:09 PM Commissioner Hallman said he assumed all the contractor would want to know
was that the Town would accept those roads eventually, and asked could conditions be placed on
that acceptance at that time. Ms. Ard said at this time the contractor wanted to know if the road
needed to be torn up or would they be allowed to continue, so that would need to be decided if a
decision was held over until the December meeting, and that would allow staff time to determine
if there should be liquidated damages. She said this would be setting a precedent for future
developments.
Commissioner Gering asked could they allow the contractors to continue working until the
Board made a decision in December. Ms. Ard said if the Board decided in two weeks that they
did not want to accept the work already done, then they would be tearing up everything versus
what was currently built. Commissioner Gering said then the answer was the work could not
continue until the contractors had an answer from the Town Board. Ms. Ard said they could start
over and build according to the plans.
Commissioner Hallman said it sounded like the Board was willing to accept the work as it was,
but the issue was what the penalty would be. He asked was that something they could move
ahead with tonight.
Commissioner Lowen and Commissioner Gering both agreed. Commissioner Lowen said if this
was a denser neighborhood he would say no, do the road over. But, he said, these were single
family homes and did not believe the traffic volume would require that. Commissioner Lowen
said he was disappointed that this had happened, but was willing to allow it to remain with the
condition that the contractor pay for the no parking signs and any striping necessary to encourage
no parking on the appropriate side of the street.
9:24:20 PM Mr. Peterson said after thinking about the no parking aspect for a few minutes and
the difference between whether it was 3 inches or a foot and three inches, he did not believe this
mistake would have any bearing on whether or not no parking signs were placed there. He said
if someone was parked on the side of the road, whether allowed or not, there would still be
adequate room for cars to pass. Mr. Peterson said even if the contractor striped the curbs, it
would not be as attractive for people who lived there and the Town would have to paint them in
perpetuity for as long as the curbing was there. He said they were talking about 1,000 feet,
which was less than a quarter mile, and it was not a high traffic area. Mr. Peterson said after
thinking about it he did not know if no parking signs were even necessary.
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Mayor Stevens said that was not the issue at this point. Mr. Peterson agreed the bigger issue was
the penalty for not adhering to the design plans.
9:25:20 PM Commissioner Lloyd asked if the other roads were built as planned. Mr. Keel
replied that the roads were not yet completed but they did have curb and gutter. He said those
roads would be measured to make sure they were built as planned. Commissioner Lloyd said
then the other streets would be okay, and would not have the same problems. Mr. Keel said that
was correct.
Commissioner Gering asked hadn?t they agreed that Ridge Street would not be built until 30
Certificates of Occupancy had been issued. Mr. Keel replied that was correct.
Commissioner Gering said he agreed that the question was really what the consequences were,
and he was willing to wait until December to decide those, but to allow the work to go forward.
The Board agreed by consensus.
Mr. Keel asked if the contractor should move forward with paving that area, or to wait until a
decision was made. The Board agreed they would not require that anything be torn out, so it was
okay to continue with the work, including paving.
9. ADJOURN
Upon a motion by Commissioner Dancy, seconded by Commissioner Lowen, the Board moved
to adjourn at approximately 9:30 PM by a vote of 5-0. The motion was declared passed.
Respectfully submitted,
Donna F. Armbrister, MMC
Town Clerk
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