HomeMy Public PortalAbout09-28-2009 Workshop Meeting
September 28, 2009 Monthly Workshop
Approved: November 9, 2009
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MINUTES
Board of Commissioners Monthly Workshop
Monday, September 28, 2009 – 7:00 p.m.
Town Barn
PRESENT:
Mayor Tom Stevens, Commissioners Evelyn Lloyd, Frances Dancy, Mike Gering, L.
Eric Hallman, and Brian Lowen.
STAFF PRESENT:
Town Manager Eric Peterson, Town Clerk/Director of Administration and
Human Resources Donna Armbrister, Planning Director Margaret Hauth, Public Works Supervisor
Ken Hines, and Police Chief Clarence Birkhead.
1.Open the Workshop
Mayor Stevens opened the Workshop at 7:02 p.m. He did not read the public charge but noted it
would be followed.
2.Agenda Changes & Agenda Approval
7:02:21 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Dancy, seconded by Commissioner Lloyd, the Board
moved to approve the Agenda as submitted by a vote of 5-0. The motion was declared passed.
3.Committee Updates and Reports
7:02:32 PM Commissioner Dancy said that the Chapel Hill-Orange County Visitors Bureau had
approved allocation of $5,000 for a visitor’s consultant who would provide the Orange County
Commissioners with information regarding a possible Heritage Center in Hillsborough. She said that
the Triangle J Council of Governments was presented with a presentation by Rosemary Waldorf
dealing with Reality Check, and they would like to give that same presentation to the Town Board if
they were willing to do that.
Mayor Stevens suggested they take a look at it and discuss it, noting there had been one done region-
wide that looked at where you would want buildings to be constructed.
Commissioner Dancy said they had used Legos during the presentation to provide a visual, and they
had a lot of information to share. She said the idea was to have everyone in the region sign on to the
concept.
7:04:36 PM Commissioner Gering said the Tourism Board at its last meeting had approved an
update to their Bylaws. He said they had to look forward to all the additional changes to their request
to the local Legislative delegation for the neighborhood legislation so that they could deal with issues
about membership and categories of the Tourism Board. Commissioner Gering said the long term
project to provide a tourism portal to Hillsborough was nearing completion, and once accomplished
they hoped to post that on the Town’s Website.
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7:05:53 PM Mayor Stevens said the UNRBA continued to make progress on the Falls Lake Rules,
which would come back to the Board in terms of requirements for development, especially for
stormwater. He said that the UNRBA had an interest in the Town’s ordinance rewrite because
communities in the Neuse River Basin needed to show what they were doing to help reduce the
nutrient buildup. Mayor Stevens said when looking at their ordinances one of the questions they had
had was how much should they do and what the public wanted them to do in terms of stormwater
management. He said he saw those issues starting to dovetail, so he would keep the Board informed.
7:07:09 PM Town Manager Eric Peterson said that the country of Argentina had a commission to
study how to improve budgeting and its link with performance measurement. He said Argentina had
decided to study about 10 cities in the United States, including Miami, Austin, Texas, and Charlotte,
with Hillsborough being the smallest of those chosen. Mr. Peterson said they wanted to study the
balanced scorecard, and Planning Director Margaret Hauth and Budget Analyst Emily Bradford had
filled out a survey to provide the information needed. He said when the report was finalized Argentina
had promised to translate it to English before sending a copy to the Town. Mr. Peterson said Argentina
had indicated they were specifically interested in Hillsborough because there were a number of smaller
local governments in Argentina, and believed Hillsborough’s practices could be of help to those
smaller local governments.
7:08:38 PM Commissioner Gering asked did he have any idea how they discovered Hillsborough.
Mr. Peterson said one of the people working on the project was a UNC MBA student, so the Chapel
Hill connection as well as working with Bill Rivenbark likely made them aware of Hillsborough’s
practices.
4.Discuss Park Use and Event Management
7:09:51 PM Planning Director Margaret Hauth said at the September Town Board meeting the
Board had discussed park use and event management, noting that the opening of the new park had
brought into sharper focus some of the issues associated with park usage. She said the Planning
Department as well as the Police Department had issues or impacts on that, and needed further
guidance from the Town Board on a variety of topics. Ms. Hauth said the handout described those
issues, including defining some terms so that that they had common definitions, determining how to
address each of the different types of events, and then establishing some thresholds for regulation and
establishing some authority on how to review events. She said they were looking for some guidance
tonight to possibly write some Code changes that would address events at parks.
Ms. Hauth said as the Code read now they basically had two levels, which was park reservation and
street events. She said some park reservations required a fee, but street events all carried a fee. Ms.
Hauth said their goal was to address loopholes or conflicts in the language in the Code.
7:12:56 PM Mayor Stevens said he understood that the issue of charging fees did cause anxiety for
some people, but they also wanted to be forward thinking. He said he wanted to clarify that no
decisions would be made tonight, that they were basically putting ideas on the table for discussion and
the outcome was to get far enough along in that discussion to provide staff with some direction to bring
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something more specific back to the Board for consideration. Ms. Hauth said that was correct, noting
that whatever the direction was would be helpful. She said the concept of a lodging tax to bring in
some revenue to help cover the expense of events was exciting, but in reality that was a year or more
away and they needed to do something during the interim to address event issues.
7:13:57 PM Commissioner Dancy said in regards to public events on private property, at times yard
sales drew a number of people. Ms. Hauth said that was not one of the events they had included.
Commissioner Dancy said at times, depending on the location, yard sale participants could block or
slow traffic especially if two were taking place near each other. She said there were occasionally
events that took place on the corner at US 70 which did on occasion cause traffic problems. Ms. Hauth
said that corner was used for various events and that other locations on private property were used for
events on a fairly regular basis. Commissioner Dancy said that particular corner sometimes caused
problems for motorists trying to turn left at US 70.
Chief Police Clarence Birkhead said a good example of that was the yard sale that happened at the
Daniel Boone Village, which was a public event but on private property that drew several hundred
people. He said the organizers did hire off-duty police officers but there were traffic issues associated
with that day-long event. Chief Birkhead said that would not fall into the category for an event, but in
effect it was an event that had an impact on the Town. He said during a recent event at Fairview Park
it was cloudy and misting rain but they still had cars parking on both sides of the street, causing issues
for those living nearby. Chief Birkhead said they had no way to manage that or stop it without heavy-
handed enforcement.
7:17:03 PM Commissioner Gering said for private events on private property, where parking was in
excess of the parking capacity of the site or 500 people, did any examples of that come to mind. Ms.
Hauth said not that exceeded 500 people, but there were examples of events that exceeded the parking
capacity. She said an example that would not meet that threshold was a wedding reception at the
Burwell School, and some private parties that take place each year that were well-known and did
routinely have 100 or more guests. Ms. Hauth said it was not their intent to try to regulate someone’s
private party, noting that the Burwell School had a limit on the number of participants for an event, as
did Ayr Mount and First Baptist Church as well as others. She said they had set the threshold
extremely high in order to stay out of private events.
Commissioner Gering said for public events on private property it would seem that the Speedway
event would fall under that. Ms. Hauth agreed, noting it would also include most any fundraiser that
did not take place on public property.
Commissioner Gering said there were two things in the list of annual events that he wondered how
they should be handled. He said he was referring to the Garden Tour and the Tarwheels Bikefest,
noting those two events did not involve a single property but was spread out over many properties or
many streets. Ms. Hauth said her view was the Garden Tour should be treated just like the Candlelight
Tour, and that there was never more than 20 to 25 people at any given home at any one time. She said
that event would not hit the threshold to trigger a review process.
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7:20:02 PM Commissioner Gering asked would they still have to fill out the form. Chief Birkhead
said they currently did fill out the street activity permit because they were walking from site to site, but
that was done more for the Police Department’s information so that they would be aware of the event.
But, he said, there was no real management piece associated with the Garden Tour or the Candlelight
Tour for the Police Department, although there could be.
Commissioner Gering said they may want to think of some wording or category to deal with that kind
of event, so that those organizing the events would have a clearer idea about what was required and
what the constraints were. Ms. Hauth said she believed both would qualify as true street events under
their current policy, and the same for the Tarwheels event.
Ms. Hauth said it appeared that they needed to look at the current language for street events and
perhaps add a fifth category. She said they would also need to think about where that would go in the
Town Code, because putting it under parks was clearly wrong, and putting it where it related to streets
was probably not the right place. Ms. Hauth said the Town Attorney Bob Hornik would be working on
that part of it.
7:21:53 PM Commissioner Lloyd said that the Soapbox Derby had only occurred once and no one
had applied for it this year, and asked should it still be included. Chief Birkhead responded yes.
Commissioner Gering said it was clever the way they had categorized public and private events that
were sponsored by the Town and their impacts on the capacity of the site. He said that section was
well done. Ms. Hauth said the thought was that there was some interest to formally sponsor some
events that the public thought the Town sponsored and they were Town events, as well as to try to look
at establishing capacity for some of those events. She said for instance, how you would know when an
event would swamp Gold Park. Ms. Hauth said they were trying to establish a real basis rather than
just pulling numbers out of the air so that it made sense and was defendable. She said the numbers
needed to have some relationship so that they seemed reasonable rather than onerous.
7:23:41 PM Mayor Stevens said as far as capacities, buildings had capacities so it was a matter of
fire safety as much as anything else. He said he had found the handout very helpful and it had
provided the Board with a good starting point for its discussion.
Mayor Stevens said a couple of things that came to mind was what were some of the principles that
they would want to think about as they moved forward, and that some of them were overlapping. He
said there were four principles that he could pinpoint, the first of which was to probably have as light a
regulatory environment as possible, so that choices of events could be preserved as much as possible
particularly on private property. Mayor Stevens said the second principle would be to pay attention to
public safety. He said another principle would be to mitigate interference with the ongoing activities
of others in Town so that there were no negative impacts on non-participants to the extent possible.
Mayor Stevens said the fourth principle would be that they were looking to provide protection through
pubic safety, but in a way that encouraged events that helped with economic development, community
recreation, and quality of life.
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Mayor Stevens said a fifth principle, as part of that encouragement, could be that they were helping
organizations deal with the reality of the Town’s growing pains, which included dealing with the costs
of such events to the Town. He said what had been provided in the handout did have that light
regulatory aspect, and he saw permitting as a way to require a conversation with event organizers. Ms.
Hauth said she believed that making sure the conversation happened was probably the biggest part of
that, and not any kind of regulation or management by the Town. She said in other words, they just
needed to know the event was going to happen and how.
7:27:34 PM Mayor Stevens said as part of that public safety, they had the new park, they had events
in the downtown, there would be another community park at Waterstone as well as the community
college, and they had events at Daniel Boone Village. He said while the Police Chief was trying to
conduct Police work those events really stretched the resources, and they had to be able to plan for
those sorts of things. Ms. Hauth commented that had the Health Fair and the Teen Fair been held the
same weekend, their resources would not have been enough to cover both events.
Commissioner Gering said they had talked before that one of the purposes of having an event policy
was to facilitate the successful functioning of events, and make sure that traffic and parking were
handled. He said he had heard one complaint on Saturday at the Gala that participants had thought
they could park on the grass but at the last minute the County had said no, so the Police Department
had to quickly figure out how to accommodate street parking for the event. Commissioner Gering said
that was a mistake that could have been avoided.
Mayor Stevens agreed, noting they needed to think not only about how to facilitate the events but how
to facilitate success. He said having the categories was helpful, and what he was hearing was that
getting the permitting and having a conversation with event organizers was important. Mayor Stevens
said he understood there was an issue of cost to the Town, but he believed the first step would be to get
that conversation with event organizers which would include figuring out what you permitted for. He
said for example, there were certain things that would trigger the need for a permit, such as an event
for over 100 people, the use of public streets, if indoors an event with over 500 people, and perhaps a
noise issue if having live music.
Mayor Stevens said if someone filed for such a permit in advance of the event, say 60 days, then there
could be no charge for that permit. He said there could be a minimum charge of $10 or $20 or
something for a required permit requested after 60 days from an event. Mayor Stevens said for
example, if someone came in 3 months before an event, submitted their plan and received a permit,
there would be no charge for that. But, if that was done 30 days in advance then the permit would
carry a minimal charge. Mayor Stevens said finally, if no permit was requested then a fine would be
levied that would carry some weight, such as $100, $250, or even more. He said if they put some teeth
into the policy, there would be incentive to get the permit or else a strong penalty would be incurred.
Mayor Stevens said what was most important was having that personal contact well before an event.
Commissioner Gering said that each of the triggers Mayor Stevens had suggested already carried
minimum thresholds.
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7:31:44 PM Commissioner Hallman said he assumed that if the permits were to be a cost recovery
mechanism, then it might prohibit someone from getting the permit well in advance.
Mayor Stevens said that was a good point, and was why he was trying to decouple it from cost
recovery, at least for the permitting process. He said if there were use fees that might be different.
Mayor Stevens said they would want to do that carefully and perhaps get the permitting done first. He
said if someone was using a shelter at the park that was different from other permits, but if off-duty
officers were being used then that would need to be figured separately from the permitting process.
Commissioner Lowen said he believed one of the big problems with people planning events was that
they were often done at the last minute, but requiring a permit 30 days in advance might mean
organizers were just throwing an event together. He said if they were trying to facilitate the event to be
successful, both for the organizers and for the Town and its residents, then 30 days advance notice was
likely not enough planning time. Ms. Hauth said that was why they had proposed requiring a permit be
obtained 60 days in advance of an event.
7:33:20 PM Mayor Stevens agreed 30 days was too short a time, and 60 days was more appropriate.
Commissioner Lowen said he believed they would want to discourage people coming in at the last
minute to obtain a permit, noting the Chief had to have time to schedule officers. He said 30 days
seemed like a lot of time, but it was not when you were trying to plan coverage for an event.
Commissioner Gering asked would that 30 day+ requirement be important only for people who were
going to trigger one of the thresholds, noting that events of that scale could not be put together in 30
days. Chief Birkhead responded yes.
Commissioner Gering said if someone did not meet one of the thresholds they would still need to have
the conversation so that everyone agreed that they did not meet a threshold but the Town would still be
prepared for the event. He said in those cases it seemed that something less than 60 days would be
appropriate. Ms. Hauth said if the event did not reach a threshold then no permit would be required.
Commissioner Gering said but the Town would be requesting as a courtesy that the organizers still
inform the Town of its plans. Chief Birkhead said that was correct.
Commissioner Dancy said that would help with planning, particularly if two different organizations
were having events at the same time or same day. She said that would make it easier for the Chief to
schedule staffing.
7:35:44 PM Mayor Stevens said that was a different idea, in that you were encouraging people to
come forward with their plans even though no permit was required. He said perhaps the new Website
would be helpful, but having events placed on a community calendar would also be helpful in terms of
publicity. Mayor Stevens said he would rather people came forward with their plans even a week in
advance than to not come forward at all. He said larger events were planned six months or even a year
in advance of the date of the event, so those would likely not be an issue. Mayor Stevens said he
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believed people would want to get their events on the calendar for the free publicity, so that would be
an encouragement to come forward with their plans even if no permit was required.
Mayor Stevens said another part of all of that was to be proactive in providing information on how to
have a successful event, perhaps by providing contact information with a checklist that would include
parking requirements, safety measures, and the cost if other resources were needed, such as off-duty
police officers. He said that would at least become a system that would capture more events as people
became familiar with the process. Ms. Hauth asked was the Board willing to allow an event that
provided its own security privately without hiring the Town’s off-duty officers.
Chief Birkhead said that had not really been discussed, noting there were a few events that occurred in
that fashion now. He said those events were at the Big Barn and were all indoors, but they may meet
the threshold of 100 people. Chief Birkhead said those events hired what he called a venue manager
who was in charge of the facility, and that he was attempting to move away from calling them
“security” because they would still need to call 911 if something happened inside or outside the
facility. Chief Birkhead said that was better than nothing, and events like those that were considered
low risk had been allowed to take place. He said in those rare occurrences that would be acceptable,
but for outdoor events that could have a more significant impact, and believed they would need to be
evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Chief Birkhead said when Beckett’s Ridge had held its Halloween celebration for the past two years
they had stepped away and said they did not have the manpower to cover that event along with the
parking. But, he said, they had then provided them with the name of a vendor that did manage parking
services, and that had worked well. Chief Birkhead said that Police Officers had still periodically
roamed the area, but they had not had to assign personnel specifically to the event.
7:39:53 PM Mayor Stevens said then if they were trying to have a system, they would need to
encourage people by being helpful and aiding in facilitation success, to provide a checklist of what was
required for that event including parking and safety, and other issues that needed attention. He said
that would give the Town the information it needed, it would provide choices to the event organizers,
and it would also indicate whether a threshold would be triggered. Mayor Stevens said he believed
that would allow for some judgment under the principles he had described, in that they would have the
necessary conversation, that a safety plan would be put in place that included that security had been
arranged either privately or through the Police Department, and whatever else was deemed necessary.
He said that would at least get them closer to where they wanted to be, and after a period of time the
process could be adjusted if other issues came to light.
Commissioner Lloyd said what worried her most was that if several events were being held at once,
what type of problems would result. She said if events were annual events, then they should be put on
the calendar well in advance so that others would not choose the same date for their events.
Commissioner Lloyd said her concern was how to make sure people understood the process, in that
they could not just plan an event without letting someone know about it in advance. She said one
example might be a family reunion where the event was planned within the family and parking was not
taken into account, thus causing issues with nearby residents or partially blocking streets. Ms. Hauth
said in those instances people would run the risk that the shelter was already reserved or that
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something else was taking place in the vicinity. She said they already had a family calling to reserve
facilities for next July for a reunion. Ms. Hauth said those who did not alert the Town ran the risk of
not having any facilities available to them.
7:43:23 PM Chief Birkhead said Ms. Hauth was correct, noting they tried to get the notices out and
to talk to people who were planning events. He said a good example of what they were dealing with
was the Last Friday events, which was growing and had spawned activities by others such as Weaver
Street Market, the Presbyterian Church, and the Orange High School Band fundraiser. Chief Birkhead
said those events were happening around the Last Friday event, but Last Friday was the only planned,
managed, and controlled space even though other events were taking place throughout the downtown
district. He said that caused the Police Department and Public Works to broaden their staffing and
planning to manage what had begun as one event in one location to cover various events in the entire
downtown area. Chief Birkhead said none of the other groups initially had applied for permits until he
had paid them a visit, and even though they believed they were a part of the Last Friday event they
were clearly outside the footprint of that event.
Commissioner Lloyd said she had gotten a complaint from someone who said an officer had told them
they could not hold their event, and when she had questioned them they admitted they did not have a
permit but thought they could do it without a permit because they had a business license. She said she
had explained to them that the permitting process was separate from business licenses. Chief Birkhead
said they had been able to get a handle on the Last Friday events because they were all centrally
located, but other events did pop up across town and having a notification process would help them
manage that calendar.
7:45:30 PM Mayor Stevens said it was managing the calendar, but at a certain point you also had to
have the power to say no to an event that had not been permitted by the Town. He said he believed
they would see that happen, and although they would want to encourage such events as the Speedway
car show and events at Daniel Boone during the Last Friday events they would need to know about
those events so that it did not interfere with their ability to provide public safety.
Commissioner Lowen said he definitely believed they should revise the Town’s Website as well as the
Tourism Board’s Website and the community access channel so that once a calendar was put together
it could be posted so that people would see when events were planned. He said that might encourage
people to choose another date for their event if they saw that some other event may be competing for
the same participants. Ms. Hauth said she believed that would be an incentive, in that when
organizations realized that if they went through the permitting process that their event would be posted
on the Website and the community access channel as part of that process, that would make them much
more willing to go through that process for the free publicity of their event.
7:48:01 PM Mayor Stevens said they may want to consider having a piggy-back permit of some sort
that would be free and easy to acquire but perhaps a fine if they did not apply for it. He said for
instance, if you were planning a big event you would not do it on the same weekend as a big event like
Hog Day, or on the other hand if you choose to do an event anyway in order to take advantage of the
number of people that Hog Day would draw, then some kind of permit would still be required which
could include that the Hog Day core event planner be notified to alert them of the plans for the separate
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event. Mayor Stevens said it could be that a courtesy permit would be required with no fee attached or
something of that sort, still making it easy but also facilitating for success by alerting the Town of the
event.
7:49:34 PM Commissioner Lloyd said that might encourage someone to do something they had not
thought of before, and that might create something that the Town might not want. She said if an event
was in the downtown and people were trying to park, an additional event would only exacerbate that
existing problem. Commissioner Lloyd said many people did not have a computer so would never see
the Website announcement, so there needed to be something else done such as an article in the
newspaper that would alert the public about such events. Ms. Hauth said she believed they had a good
database of people to capture to get the word out about events. Commissioner Lloyd said if people
knew about events beforehand they could choose not to come to the downtown or a specific area in
order to stay out of the traffic.
Chief Birkhead said he believed they could limit the number of events as long as they had the ability to
say no if resources were being stretched too thin. He said a piggyback permit would still be possible as
long as they had that ability to say no.
Mr. Peterson said they probably needed to build in an appeals procedure so if the Chief or the Town
Manager said no that the person or group would have some recourse to come before the Town Board at
its next scheduled meeting to lay out their plans and try to get the Town Board to override the decision,
or to receive a more detailed explanation as to why they were not granted a permit.
7:52:51 PM Mayor Stevens said he believed that was an excellent idea, and asked Ms. House and
the Chief if the discussion had provided them with enough direction. Ms. Hauth asked was there
anything in the handout that the Board might be totally uncomfortable with.
Commissioner Gering said he believed some of the wording needed to be modified. Ms. Hauth said
the language she had used had not been meant as ordinance language, noting that the Town Attorney
would be putting in the appropriate language when the actual draft ordinance was written for the Board
to consider.
Commissioner Gering asked had they intended to say that when public events were sponsored by the
Town that approval of the sponsor would include approval for the closure of the public property. Ms.
Hauth said for example, a major event decided to locate in Gold Park and it was something that the
Board endorsed and it was expected to draw 600 people. She said if the Town Board approved
endorsement of the event or sponsored the event to be held in Gold Park on that date, then essentially
the park would need to be closed to the general public. Ms. Hauth said the park would certainly be
opened to event attendees, but the Town would need to be able to say to the general public that because
of the event the park was not opened for general use.
Commissioner Gering said he was pressing the point that it appeared they were saying that all Town-
sponsored events would require closure. Ms. Hauth responded only if they were happening in Gold
Park. Commissioner Gering said the language was confusing in that it said “will.” Ms. Hauth said an
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example would be that there was no reason to close Gold Park on Hog Day, since those events took
place in the downtown.
7:54:41 PM Mayor Stevens said to recap, this was a work in progress and that five guiding
principles had been identified: as light a regulatory touch as possible, promote the public safety,
mitigate interference with the normal use of the Town, encourage events, and facilitate for success. He
said he believed they generally agreed that thresholds as discussed should be included, that the
permitting process, again with a light touch, be required at no charge if permits were requested at least
60 days in advance of an event, with a minimal charge if not, and that when staff came back that
specific costs for Town services would be included as a separate issue for discussion. Mayor Stevens
said they might also look at encouragement for courtesy permits for piggyback events that were
associated with other events, which would encourage or require that the event organizers contact the
large event managers to alert them of their plans. He said he believed they also agreed that there
needed to be a mechanism for denying a permit request as well as an appeals process for denials.
Ms. Hauth asked if the Board would want the guiding principles to be included in an “intent” section
of the Code so that the public could understand why the Town was creating the process.
Mayor Stevens said part of that was that they were being successful so they had to plan for success for
the future as the Town grew. Ms. Hauth asked if the Board wanted to see this again to get it in a more
formal form, or should they send it out to their normal event organizers first for feedback.
7:57:30 PM Commissioner Lowen said he personally would like to see the proposed language
before it was distributed.
Commissioner Lloyd said if you wanted to sell hotdogs outside your business during Hog Day or Last
Fridays, would you need to have a permit beforehand and would you need a separate permit from the
Health Department since you were serving food even though Hog Day or Last Fridays already had a
permit to serve food. Ms. Hauth responded that retail sales outside a store, or the display of items for
sale outside a store, was a violation or both the Town Code and the Zoning Ordinance. She said they
sort of overlooked that during Last Fridays because it was a larger event. But, Ms. Hauth said, such
retail sales should not take place at all.
Commissioner Gering asked would it be appropriate to email comments to Ms. Hauth before the
proposed language came back to the Board in draft form, perhaps at a workshop.
7:59:46 PM Commissioner Lowen said doing that would provide the Board with another
opportunity to discuss it before it was sent out for public feedback.
Commissioner Gering agreed that would be the best approach.
Commissioner Lloyd said if a person wanted to sell paintings, for instance, but they were not blocking
a sidewalk or a street, would that be permissible. Ms. Hauth said no, that it was absolutely in violation
of the Town Code and the Zoning Ordinance. She said they had in fact sent a letter to an artist today to
alert him to that fact.
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Chief Birkhead said the same thing held true with food, in that it was a violation on multiple levels.
8:00:55 PM Mr. Peterson said as far as timing, he had one brief conversation with the Town
Attorney about an accommodations tax and the language needed, and if they could come up with a
template, a format, or some concepts of what they wanted to propose for that tax then they may be able
to propose that at the same time so that feedback could be obtained on both issues. He said that
proposal could outline what the revenue would or would not be used for. Ms. Hauth said the timing
might work, but if they aimed for some sort of meeting with their normal event hosts they would likely
need to do that before mid-November when the Board would break for the holidays. Mr. Peterson said
he believed that was doable, noting that the enabling legislation to get the local bill passed would not
be an issue since so many had already been passed that the language was readily available, so it would
just be a matter of figuring out the administrative process of how that would work. He said he believed
that mid-November would give them time to do that.
Chief Birkhead asked would mid-November be the time the Board would want to see a cost-recovery
plan.
Ms. Hauth said she believed what she was hearing from the Board was to rewrite the proposed policy
and perhaps come up with the cost for services, and then they would decide whether that would be
included when it was sent to event organizers for comment. She said that would need to be ready for a
mid-November Board meeting, so they would need to get the draft out to the Board shortly after the
October Board meeting so that comments could be included in the mid-November draft. Ms. Hauth
said some of the fees would be simple since they already knew what the costs were, but others would
need to be determined. She said they may need to keep that information close for now since there was
the danger that people may get distracted by numbers.
8:03:44 PM Mayor Stevens agreed he would not want to focus on the cost for now although it was
understood that there was a price to the Town for events.
Commissioner Lloyd asked Chief Birkhead if he was running out of overtime funds. Chief Birkhead
said he believed they were okay for now, but it certainly needed to be a part of the conversation at the
appropriate time. Commissioner Lloyd said that the budgeting part of the process was somewhat
worrisome for her.
Mayor Stevens said he hoped that the facilitative process would also include how volunteers could be
used for parking, for instance, to help take some of the pressure off the Police Department.
5.Discuss Waste Transfer Station Locations and Potential Impact on Hillsborough
8:05:20 PM Mayor Stevens said that the Town had a very small part in the waste stream for the
County, likely under 5%, and although they did not want to tell the County Commissioners what to do
it also was not fair for the Town to remain silent on the issue. He said he believed tonight’s discussion
was to determine what the Town wanted to communicate to the County regarding the location for a
waste transfer station and its impact on the Town.
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Commissioner Gering asked if the cost figures used in the comparison included tipping fees or service
fees. Mr. Peterson said that tipping fees were the actual weight of the garbage, so he did not believe
that would change regardless of where the garbage was going. Commissioner Gering said if it was
hauled to Durham he would assume that there would be a different fee structure. Public Works
Supervisor Ken Hines said at present Durham’s fee was $42 per ton, and the Town was paying $48 per
ton now. He said when a waste transfer station was built in the future they did not know what the
tipping fees would be.
Commissioner Gering said that was important to know if the Board was to decide what was the most
cost effective for the Town. Mr. Hines said basically distance was not the main driving factor in what
would be the least expensive alternative for the Town. Commissioner Gering asked was he saying that
tipping fees were insignificant compared to the cost of hauling it. Mr. Hines responded yes.
8:07:19 PM Mayor Stevens said he was hearing $5 a ton. Mr. Peterson said they would have to
prove that assumption depending on what the difference was.
Commissioner Gering said when they projected the costs out into the future, did that include the
Town’s own population increase projections and the demand for additional waste disposal. Mr. Hines
said he was not certain that had been included in the formula, but he would find out. Commissioner
Gering said a lot of projects had been approved so they were expecting an increase in population for
the future.
Mr. Peterson said they would follow up and answer that question, but as far as the projections made for
Hillsborough for the future his belief was that not all of that cost could be attributed to just inflation.
Commissioner Gering said just applying the historic population increase may not work, based on all
the projects that had been approved and the population those projects would bring in. Mr. Peterson
said they also needed to determine the basis for projecting the cost increases. Commissioner Gering
said he believed those things might just affect the curve shown in the graphs.
8:09:09 PM Mayor Stevens agreed that if the projected increase in population was not taken into
account it would make the curves on the graphs more pronounced.
Commissioner Gering said if it was all based on distance driven, then why did some of the graph lines
cross. Mr. Hines responded he was sure there was a formula used but he would need to determine
what that formula was.
Commissioner Gering said he would specifically like to know why the lines on the graph were
crossing, how precise the calculations were, and whether they included population projections. Mr.
Peterson said they would determine those answers, but believed the likely answer would be something
related to capital, to a planned expansion, to expected cost increases, and the like. Commissioner
Gering the Hillsborough figures should not be affected, unless capital costs were not figured in. Mr.
Peterson said he was referring to actually operating a waste facility.
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Commissioner Gering said wasn’t it true that they had in fact provided some projections for their own
capital investment requirements. Mr. Peterson said they had shared their operational cost projections.
Mr. Hines said they had also projected in the capital cost of replacing a truck or trucks.
8:12:21 PM Mayor Stevens said in one scenario you would have to replace trucks, and that would
cause the graph lines to cross.
Commissioner Gering said that still would not change the dominant factor, which was the distance.
Mr. Peterson said as far as debt service, it would depend on which facility they were taking their waste
to. He said there would be a debt service and a cost to actually run the facility regardless of who was
running the facility.
Commissioner Gering said one of the questions he had asked earlier was whether there would be an
advantage to Hillsborough to offer voluntarily to haul its trash to Durham in order to prolong the life of
the County landfill, assuming that it would take some time for the County to open a transfer station.
He said it seemed that in all the scenarios it would still cost them more than taking it to the landfill. He
said that would seem to make it clear the Town would gain nothing by doing that.
8:14:27 PM Mayor Stevens said they could do that with cost offsets. Commissioner Gering said
there would have to be something like that to make it worthwhile. Mayor Stevens said he would be
open to those kinds of discussions, if the County were interested in helping. Commissioner Gering
said he would think the County would want to squeeze as much life as possible out the landfill.
Mayor Stevens asked if they were all in agreement that they would want to communicate to the County
that based on cost the Town’s preference would be the Millhouse site.
Commissioner Gering asked wasn’t there some assumption about which Millhouse site was being
proposed. Mr. Hines said right now it was a piece of property owned by the Town of Chapel Hill, but
the two sites were basically right across from each other. He said that site would mean 1.5 miles
further distance for the Town.
8:15:54 PM Mayor Stevens said then the Town’s preference was based on economics, which were
significant. Mr. Hines said it they were to go to another site in the near future, say 2012, that would be
a strain on Public Works and would likely mean another position would be needed in order to keep up
with demands. He said if they had to haul waste a longer distance it would mean that the driver would
not be back in time to cover other routes, so another person would be needed to fill in. Mayor Stevens
asked if the Board wanted to communicate a willingness to at least discuss the Millhouse site as a
preference based on economics. There was general agreement from the Board.
6.Update on UNC Student Work Researching the Implementation of the Cornelius Street Plan
8:17:15 PM Ms. Hauth said she had provided an earlier email with a draft work proposal for a UNC-
Chapel Hill economic development class to look at the US 70 corridor with some identified parcels and
do a market study that would basically take the Cornelius Street plan to the next step. She said she had
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met with the class a couple of weeks ago, and doing a market study for a finite number of lots and a
finite number of uses was not really something that fit in with their class objectives. Ms. Hauth said
they had tried to convince one of the real estate classes to pick it up, but they already had their class
work set. However, she said, that class was going to look at more of a market study approach for the
corridor which would be a little more general than what they had wanted but it would still provide
some good information. Ms. Hauth said apparently there was a data source available that would track
credit card charges based on zip code and mailing address, which was available at a cost, and if that
data could be obtained then the students could analyze it. She said it was her hope to be able to do that
for around $500 to $1,000, and to get that data back in the form of a report. Ms. Hauth said it would
take the Cornelius Street plan to the next phase and begin to provide some real world numbers and
some real world information so that when someone did come in and express an interest they would
have the research available on that corridor. She said that study was not exactly what they had
envisioned but it would provide some useful research at a very small cost to the Town.
8:19:27 PM Commissioner Lowen said regarding the zip code information, would that give them
some duplicate information. He said he thought they had gotten some research from the County that
showed population density. Ms. Hauth said that was correct but this data would be different, and even
if it was not the information would be 3 to 5 years more recent. She said she believed they would be
able to break the data down by where spending was based on sectors of the economy and type of retail.
Ms. Hauth said when retail was broken down in market studies you would end up with about 20
categories, and she believed they would be able to break the new data down in a similar manner in
order to identify any gaps. She said searching for a gap would tell them what services the market was
not yet providing that the corridor could fill so that the Town would have an idea of what was needed.
Ms. Hauth said that could then be translated into square footages of different types of uses.
Commissioner Lowen asked would there be any information that would be kept in-house once the
class was finished that would provide them with data that they could then discuss with the County in
terms of development needs. Ms. Hauth said she would think that any outcome from the study would
be shared.
Commissioner Gering said that brought up the question of why the EDC was not being asked to
facilitate the study, in terms of helping to fund it. Ms. Hauth said the EDC had not been asked.
8:22:49 PM Commissioner Lowen asked if the EDC had a budget that could be used in that regard.
Commissioner Gering said the EDC would get the data and integrate it with other data, so they would
be benefiting from the study.
Commissioner Lowen agreed, and believed once Ms. Hauth had the information about what the cost
would be that the Town should then ask the EDC to participate by providing some funding.
Mayor Stevens suggested asking the EDC to split the cost with the Town. Ms. Hauth said they would
be glad to do that.
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8:23:40 PM Mr. Peterson said one point to consider was whether it was worth the gain of $500 to
$1,000 for loss of control of their process or slowing the process down because they were bringing in
another entity. He said he did not know the answer to that, but it was something that should be
weighed in. Mr. Peterson said sometimes it was just easier to do it yourself.
Mayor Stevens said Mr. Peterson’s point was well taken.
Commissioner Gering said he agreed, but in fact it might not slow the process down. Ms. Hauth said
they could always ask once they had determined the fee.
7.Other
8:24:57 PM Commissioner Hallman commented that in regards to the ordinance rewrite and whether
or not to ask or demand for LEED certification, one of the very few buildings in the country that was
Platinum LEED certified was in Greensboro, and the only hotel in the country that was Platinum
LEED certified was in Greensboro. He said what had interested him was that they used only half the
water that a conventional hotel used. Commissioner Hallman said since water was of particular
interest to the Town, and the fact that they had a couple of hotel projects looming, then perhaps they
should pay a visit to the hotel and check it out.
8. Adjourn
8:26:08 PM Upon a motion by Commissioner Dancy, seconded by Commissioner Gering, the Board
moved to adjourn the meeting by a vote of 5-0. The motion was declared passed.
Respectfully submitted,
Donna F. Armbrister, MMC
Town Clerk