HomeMy Public PortalAbout20121011InfraMinutes.pdfINFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE MINUTES
CITY OF TYBEE ISLAND
October 11, 2012
5:00 P.M.
ATTENDEES: Paul Wolff, Diane Schleicher, Tom Groover, George Reese, Barry
Brown, Wanda Doyle, Chris Stovall (Thomas & Hutton) and Jason
Buelterman. Joe Wilson was absent.
Approve the minutes of the previous meetings - Paul Wolff called the meeting to order;
asked for a motion to approve the minutes from the 8-9-12 meeting; Tom Groover
motioned to approve; Barry Brown seconded.
New Business:
I. Discussion requested by neighbors regarding gray water runoff in Silver Avenue
drain from Fannies
A. Paul Wolff asked if the gray water was from the mats in the kitchen. Diane
Schleicher responded; yes. Jerry Stuber (Sand Piper Condos), Fred Harkleroad
and Jenny Orr (Fannies) joined the table.
B. Jerry states that this has been going on since 2007, and passes out pictures of
pooling water. This issue came up again in the spring; the City apparently met
with Jenny (Fannies); the solution to the problem was to squeegee the water
out to the drain, or something like that. That occurred some; but it didn’t occur
more times than not; the water would pool up in there until it would
evaporate; it was in the street most every day. If you read the ordinance, the
first sentence says, any water going into the street, to the maximum amount
possible, cannot create a nuisance. Then it goes into detail about contaminated
water and stuff like that. So we had this meeting with Diane Schleicher,
Hodad, the water man, and Fred. When we talked about the “nuisance”, I
think what got us to this table was, when I said it’s a “nuisance”, and I asked
the people at the meeting, they couldn’t figure out what a “nuisance” was. So I
asked if you can’t figure it out, what is the next step. Let somebody here
determine what a “nuisance” is.
C. Paul Wolff asked, so what’s the issue; is there standing water, an odor, stains
on the payment? Is it mainly the standing water?
D. Jenny Orr states there are potholes full of water, which comes from both
properties. They have an irrigation system; they pressure wash their parking
lot. Paul asked if there was a storm drain in this area; Fred states there used to
be one further west and when they did that new construction down there, they
moved it; they covered it up and moved it east, out to the street corner.
E. Paul asked Jerry, from what I gathered from your previous statement was that,
what you asked for in the first place, was that they squeegee the water into the
storm drain. Jerry states, I didn’t ask for anything; the City Manager, or
whoever, said that the solution to the problem was to squeegee it when they
are done washing their mats. Paul asked, so if that was done consistently,
would that solve the problem? Fred states, no; you would have to go down
there everyday to see what I’m talking about. There are low places in the
street and it just lays in there and takes all day for it to evaporate. Tom
Groover stated he went down there this afternoon, around 12:30, and it was
dry as a bone. Jenny states, we did soak the mats last night; we did wash our
sidewalk last night and we did squeegee the seats. We soaked that place last
night; it did dry this morning; on damp days, raining days; days when there’s
water coming from other properties, all water gathers there. (Jenny points to a
picture) We do wash our sidewalk; we wash our windows; we wash our City
sidewalk that we use; we wash our property every single day; an hour in the
morning and an hour at night, every day. I committed to Diane S. that we
would sweep that street anytime we put water in it. It does pool and settle; I
do spend the money; I do spend the manpower. I diligently take care of my
mess in that street and their mess in that street. I’ve never once seen them
sweep up their water; I’ve never once seen them pick up their trash that blows
out of their multi-unit rentals in that building; we clean it up; we maintain it,
just to be done and rid of them. Mr. Harkleroad started on me years ago.
F. Barry Brown states he goes up and down that street all the time; I’ve seen the
water standing there before; everybody that owns the big condos has gutters
and downspouts that come right there to the street; everyone of them dump
there in the street; the restaurant side does; the condo side does; the condo at
the road does; that water comes toward the ocean. What happens is that one
section by the restaurant and condo area, has been cut up and butchered up so
much; it really needs to be cut out. That water is going to be there with the
way the potholes are in that road; if they cut it out and re-do that asphalt part
and put a valley in the middle of it, it will take it right to the drain and
disappear in an hour.
G. Paul states, I don’t imagine that Joe Wilson has that in his budget. Diane
Schleicher states no, he said it was a private road; it actually doesn’t belong to
the City. Jenny asks who owns that road. Paul states, the adjacent property.
Barry asks where we have in our ordinance, that that is a private road. Diane
states, Joe said it is on the list of private roads. Jenny states that this is the first
she has ever heard of that being a private road. Paul asks Jenny if her survey
shows that; Jenny replied, it certainly does not; it shows that I own right up to
my brick wall.
H. Paul suggests that City staff determine whether this is or is not a private road;
suggested that the parties involved, submit a copy of their survey; if it’s a City
road let’s put this on the priority list for what Barry suggested; cut it out and
valley it so it goes to that storm drain; that should solve the problem. If it’s a
private road, have Joe give us a price; go the adjacent property owners. Jerry,
Fred and Jenny left the table.
II. Review Water and Sewer Changes on multiple units with multiple kitchens
a. Bed and Breakfasts
1. Paul states that Barry said the Mayor wanted to talk about multiple
kitchens; Jason Buelterman states he was contacted by someone that
had a multiple, what would you say it was, Diane?
b. Guest Cottages
1. Diane Schleicher states we had an individual that has a guest cottage;
this person was renting out the guest cottage and didn’t realize that it
couldn’t be rented out; they had what could be a “kitchen” in the
guest cottage; it didn’t have a stove but had a sink; the people renting
out the guest cottage, could prepare food in it. So we charged them
as a 2 “unit”; the house and the guest cottage. Jason asks if we just
started charging for this. Diane states we have been auditing; as soon
as we find someone that has a “second” unit, we go in and charge
them for 2 units. Jason asks if that is determined by a business
license. Diane states, it’s not determined by a business license; it’s
determined by whether or not they have a kitchen. So you can be in
an R1 and have a legal guest cottage and have it for your family. If
you were to build a guest cottage today, you would have to have a
second meter. We have old guest cottages that don’t have a second
meter, so we charge them that extra unit because it has an impact on
our Water/Sewer system; that is built into our rates.
2. Paul asks if they’re adding a meter to do this. Diane states, no; we
had someone, that when they bought the property, they had a guest
cottage; they had never been charged; but because we were doing an
audit, all of a sudden they had to pay for the guest cottage fee. Then
they didn’t realize that because they’re an R1B that they weren’t
allowed to rent it out; then they’re really unhappy because they’re
paying the extra unit and now can’t rent it out. Jason asks, didn’t
they get a business permit? Diane states they got a business license
in error; Zoning doesn’t allow it. So now they’re going to come in as
a Bed and Breakfast; Jason asks, if it’s a “B and B” do they still have
to pay for two? George Reese states no, they just pay for one. Jason
states, so if it’s a “B and B”, they pay for one, and if it’s an R1 use,
it’s just a separate cottage with a sink, then they get charged 2; Diane
states, they will make the whole thing a “B and B”; they will have
the guests stay in the guest cottage and then serve them breakfast.
Barry Brown states, I don’t even know if that’s on our books
anywhere. Diane states, well they will be coming to ya’ll and you
can sort it out.
3. Jason asks, relative to the water/sewer part of it, why a “B and B”
would not get charged but a “separate” building does. Paul states,
because a “B and B” has one kitchen; it’s determined by the number
of “kitchens”. Jason asks, what determines a “kitchen”? Barry
states, a stove, refrigerator and sink; Diane states, the international
building code that we have adopted says, a kitchen shall mean an
area used and designated to be used for the preparation of food.
Barry states, I don’t think you can use this property as a “B and B”
because it’s a separate building on the same piece of propert y. Jason
states, basically what happened was this person was being charged
$62/month; all of a sudden they were being charged $100+/month.
Paul states, I think the definition in the code of a residential “B and
B” is that it has to be owner occupied and can’t have more than 7
guests rooms. Barry states, alright, if you go back to the other Land
Development Code, it says that you can’t have but 1 primary
structure on the lot. Paul states, yes but it would be an accessory
structure. Barry states, yes an accessory structure but not to be used
as a “B and B”.
4. Jason asks if there are a lot of people that we are catching on this
deal, who all of a sudden have their water bills go up and they’re not
finding out why. Barry states that most of your new guest houses
have separate meters. Diane states that what staff and I did wrong on
this particular case was, this person had their bill changed without
being notified; we are now sending letters out and saying, if we are
in error, let us know and we will have the City Marshall look at it;
that gives them the opportunity to say, your wrong, this isn’t a
kitchen. The person we’re talking about won’t let us go in and look
at the house. Jason states, I think Diane hit on it; all of a sudden your
bill goes up; you have the same or less usage as you did before but
you’re paying twice as much and you didn’t find out why. Paul states
the base rate is $9.55; see if they’re irrigating a lot and that’s why the
bill is up. Jason states, so it’s just around $10/month more; Diane
gave Jason a copy of the base rate schedule. Paul asks, are we good
on this now; Jason says yes, as well as Diane and George.
III. Discussion regarding raising municipal wells elevation for storm surge
A. Paul Wolff asks what it would cost to raise everything we had to raise, and
encase it; Chris Stovall states, you’re probably looking at $100,000 minimum,
per well, to raise it up.
IV. Discussion about purchasing a New Aerator from Aeration Industries
International, Inc. Cost $ 31,000.00 for aeration basin
A. George Reese passed out information on the cost of repairs on Aerators for the
past 3 years; states we are pouring good money into junk; I’ve got 2 failed, up
there right now; I’ve been renting an Aerator, from Aeration Industries, for 3
months now; Paul Wolff asks, so this $65,332.78 is the repair cost for the last
3 years; George states, yes, it’s actually more than that; Paul asks what a new
unit runs; George states $31,000; Paul says, well that’s a no brainer; George
says he has the money; Paul asks for a motion to approve George purchasing a
new Aerator; Barry Brown moved to approve; Tom Groover states that
George sold the Press for $18,000 and the Vac Truck for $20,000; so he has
enough money to buy 2 of them if we approve it; Barry states, if he needs 2
of them and they’re $31,000 and he’s got the money available, then I change
my motion to approve to purchase 2 of the Aerators; it will save money on the
maintenance. Tom Groover seconded.
Old Business:
I. HISTORIC BUTLER AVENUE TE GRANT - HGBD
A. Project Status Update
a. Project is currently out to bid
b. Pre-bid meeting – October 23, 2012 at 1:30 pm in city hall
c. Bids due – November 1, 2012 at 2 pm
II. Alternative Water Source – Thomas & Hutton
i. Lower Floridian Well – Paul Wolff states, I think we know what our
options are; we’ve pretty much eliminated everything but going with the Lower
Aquifer or getting our permit increased, which we can’t do. Jason Buelterman
asks Chris Stovall, do you agree with that, that the best option is the lower? Chris
responds; I’ve done some research; I know that Steve came a couple months back
and covered a lot of the issues; Paul states, the just of what he said was, if we go
with the lower, we are only going to gain 40-60%; Chris states it would probably
be a little less than that because of the water quality in the Lower Floridian
Aquifer…
ii. Possible Location of Well
iii. Water Quality - The test well at the plant, here on Tybee, there’s a
Myosin, the Lower Floridian and Upper Floridian; Chris passes out information
on what the well is; it’s a 950ft. deep well; the water quality is monitored at 845ft;
the top of the Aquifer is around 700; the bottom is 950; so they are measuring
right in the middle, so we’re getting an average kind of number; the lower you get
in the Aquifer, the worse the quality; but we’re right there in the middle, so I think
it’s not a whole lot better than the top, it could be. The specific conductants,
which in general is salinity numbers; salt water is 40-50,000; the number in the
Lower Floridian well is 11-13,000, which is well above drinking water standards;
Chris goes over the hardness of the water; numbers on a handout that was passed
out; Paul Wolff asks if the R/O would get all of this out. Chris states, R/O would
get all of this out; so I went back and checked the numbers of the Crustacean
Well; it’s a 3800 ft deep well; they’ve had a tear occur in the screens; it’s water
under pressure, so it’s very difficult to get a video camera down there to look at it;
so it’s a $2,000,000 well vs. about $500,000 to get a Lower Floridian Well down;
Sea Pines is having an issue right now; it’s been down for 5 weeks now and they
can’t come up with a cheap solution; they’re going to have to spend a lot of
money to fix it. The R/O plant would be around $4/gal (capital cost); so a
$1,000,000 plant would be around $4,000,000; Paul asks what is the O&M to
process the water; Chris states it would be similar to a surface water plant; when
you look at the City of Savannah, it’s $1.30/1,000 and that’s a very large plant,
we’re going to be well over that; Georgia hasn’t done R/O plants yet; Jason asks
if the State is going to start to regulate the Lower Floridian; Chris states there’s a
moratorium present; there is a concern that by drawing down the lower, we’re
actually causing to draw down the upper; shows diagram on handouts; EPD is
going to do an unfunded study, over the next, who knows how long, to determine
how close wells could be and how much withdrawn; Tybee would be okay with
putting a Lower Floridian Well down; you will still have to go through the testing;
you’re going to give up Upper Floridian water to get Lower Floridian; you’re also
going to lose that concentrate water; so you’re going to lose another 20%; so
you’re really only going to get 480,000-500,000 gallons for the 1,000,000 gallons
you’re pumping out; Jason asks how they determine how much you can and
cannot take out and does that count against your upper permit; Chris states, there
will have to be testing done; you put in the test well; the best thing here is that you
would be saving money; the test well you would put in, would be a production
well; the best thing is that you already have an Upper Floridian, a Myosin and a
Lower Floridian Well at the Wastewater Treatment Plant; you can utilize USGS;
they’ve given us a proposal in the past for $140,000 (just for the test); about
$500,000 for the well; they may be able to find some Grant funds to off set that;
the study (testing) would be about an 18 month process; It would be a little bit
less to treat the Lower Floridian; Paul states, let me sum this up; if we drilled and
all the test proved out in our favor and we had a 1,000,000 gal/day Lower
Floridian Production Well ready to go, all permits get approved and everything, if
we pump 1,000,000 gal/day, we will net/yield some slightly under 500,000
gal/day; does that come off our 960,000 gal/day permit? Chris states, yes it does;
you would now have a 460,000 gallon upper Floridian Permit and a 1,000,000
gallon lower Floridian; Paul asks, wouldn’t it be a whole lot cheaper to do a
treatment facility for the Upper Floridian Well;
iv. Treatment Options – George Reese states that if it becomes salt water
intrusion, you bring in an R/O Plant; a small package plant and set it right there at
the well and keep on pumping. Jason states, we have two problems; 1. We have
the long term with salt water intrusion; 2. When development comes back, are we
going to be in a position where we tell people that they can’t develop their lot
because we don’t have enough water; EPD is not going to give us more water; I
talked to the commissioner of the EPD and pleaded our case; the commissioner
said there’s no way anybody is getting anymore water; are we going to spend
$4,600,000 and then ask everybody to pay double the water rates;
v. Potential Overall Cost of Project
vi. Other Options – Chris states another similar priced option is the City of
Savannah; Jason states, it’s more cost effective to get it ourselves than to pump it
there, not unless we can get State dollars to pay for the pipe, which is probably
not going to happen. Chris states, another issue with going to the City is, you
would still be using Upper Floridian water; it’s not really helping much. Jason
asks George, where are we right now? George states, all we’re doing right now is
discussing it; we’re fine on our permit; we haven’t gone over; we should be fine
this year. Chris states that another option would be to allow residents to drill their
own wells, into the Upper Floridian, as long as their not going over 1,000 gal/day;
Tom Groover asks, what about salt water right out of the ocean? Chris states, you
can do that; I would recommend a well before going to sea water; Jason states,
another thing that came out of that meeting in Atlanta was, there’s a window of
opportunity to pursue funds; states that Kevin Kelly says there are some grant
opportunities; there’s an application period that starts in January. Chris looks at
the hand out on our water rates; states the first order of business would be to raise
your water rates; you can continue with conservation; it sounds like you have
some time; we do know how to treat if you decide to go with any of the deeper
Aquifers; there’s other Aquifers options that you can look at, that can get you by
with another 100,000–200,000 gallons; the big thing would be if the EPD comes
back and says, your at 916,000, now you’re going to have to cut another 10%.
Jason states, if there’s infrastructure, something that we need to buy to help
conservation, that’s something that would be looked upon very kindly, if we
applied for a Grant. Chris states that the more conservation that you do and reuse,
at least the feasibility of it, the better chance you have of keeping existing water
supplies.
III. HISTORIC RAILS TO TRAILS TE GRANT – Thomas & Hutton
A. Project Status Update – Thomas & Hutton
a. Concept report meeting with GDOT scheduled for October 23, 2012 at 10
am
With no further business to discuss, Barry Brown motioned to adjourn;
Tom Groover seconded.
A quorum of city council members may be present which would constitute a meeting.
Respectfully submitted by Karen Reese on 11/06/2012