HomeMy Public PortalAbout2001-02-06 PC minutesMINUTES PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISISON DATE: February 6, 2001 AT: Village Meeting Hall Chairman Sobkoviak called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. and led the pledge to the flag. Roll Call: PRESENT: Commissioners Kachel, Gehrke, Schinderle, Manning a nd Sobkoviak Park, School, and Library Districts ABSENT: Commissioner Anderson Fire District The minutes from Plan Commission meeting of January 16, 2001 were accepted as presented. Chairman Sobkoviak acknowledged the passing of our good friend Bob Mil lan. He said his contributions to the Plan Commission proceedings were valuable and he will be missed. He offered our condolence to his family. Chairman Sobkoviak reported the Chief of Police has advised him that an ad -hoc Traffic Committee has been e stablished. DEVELOPMENT REPORT: Planner Carroll said the Village Board approved Kensington Club Unit 2. He said the Village and Kendall County received a $150,000 grant. He said it is a planning grant for planning land uses and access of the Wikaduke Tr ail. Chairman Sobkoviak stated there was no old business. NEW BUSINESS: CASE NO: 847 -122100.AA/PP CHAPLIN FARM Planner Carroll stated this is a public hearing for annexation and consideration of the preliminary plat. He said the applicant is proposi ng to develop approximately 120 acres for a 211 single -family subdivision. He said Harvest Glen is located to the east, Walkers Grove to the north, the West Norman Drain runs to the south and west. He said further south there is undeveloped property. He said the Plan Commission and Village Board considered a concept plan for the parcel in 1998. He said the Village Board recommended the previous developer try to obtain the parcel to the west. He said the subject site is located in the Village and Suburb an District of the Comprehensive Plan which suggests a gross density of approximately 2.5 dwelling units per acre and an open space ratio of about 25% to 30%. He said the applicants propose a gross density of 1.76 dwelling per acre and an open space ratio n of 41%. He said for comparison Walkers Grove has a density of 2.43 dwelling units per acre and Harvest Glen has a density of 2.3 dwelling units per acre. He said detention and open space is provided along the south end of the site. He described the op en space and described how the open space corridor could work. He said the average lot size is 11,209 square feet with a minimum lot size of 10,500 square feet. He said some of the lot widths fall short of the 85 feet minimum. He said road widths are pr oposed at 31 and 66 which meets Village requirements. Planner Carroll said one issue is Meadow Lane. He said the Village requires 40 foot building setbacks for lots along Meadow Lane. He said on the preliminary plat it shows 35 feet. He said the appl icant is aware of the recommendation of 40 -foot setback and he will make the necessary
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 2 changes. He said Staff was concerned that with adding the additional 5 feet may impact about 4 or 5 lots, particularly Lot 1, 32 and basically some of the corner lots. He said if we loose another 5 feet, it will push into other lots. He said it will take a redesign of about 5 lots. He said in talking with the applicant, they may have to remove lot 1 which helps in other concerns as some of the lots along the north wer e shorter in length than adjacent Harvest Glen. Planner Carroll said on corner lots Staff would recommend no access easements along the corner side yards to prevent driveway access along Meadow Lane. He said a major concern of the previous plan was the applicant did not continue Meadow Lane to the south. He said this applicant has continued it south. He said another major issue in the Staff report was the idea of lot lengths. He said Staff indicated lot 211 was too close to 135 th Street, however in t alking with the Village Engineer, this issue is not as great as Staff first anticipated. Howard Hamilton, Village Engineer said the way the ordinance is written is the maximum block length is shall be 1500 feet and the minimum block length should be 300 feet. He said when we have roadways that do not have driveway access on them, you have only one row of houses here then this lot would have to be 300 feet deep or have a park at that corner. He said it is preferable to wrap the road back in but that sh ortens up the block so that is when we use the should. He said when it can be done we push it but this is not one of those cases. Planner Carroll indicated the location of the stub streets. He said the traffic committee has recommended an additional s tub perhaps where lot 97 is for better access for police and fire. He said regarding annexation, the property is contiguous to Harvest Glen and is a logical extension of Village limits. He said the applicants have requested R -1. He said the Comprehensiv e Plan defines this area as Village and Suburban, which is predominantly residential. He said utilities are generally available to the site. He said Staff recommended continuing this case. He said Staff has since learned from the Village Engineer that it was not as big a deal as we first thought. He said if the Plan Commission is comfortable with recommending approval, Staff would support that. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if he remained recommending continuance. Planner Carroll said he would like the ap plicant to address the 5 lots that need to be redesigned. Howard Hamilton said the Meadow Lane collector street is 36 feet wide. He said Meadow Lane extending and the need for the box culvert – that is to be addressed in the annexation agreement – they w ill provide escrow. He said they have all agreed to the other items. Commissioner Kachel asked about the traffic and Meadow Lane and how they all tie together. He said it looks like a huge traffic backlog. Howard Hamilton said that is a concern. C hairman Sobkoviak asked how Meadow Lane was in other subdivisions. Howard Hamilton said in Whispering Creek it is 36 feet wide and it is a straight shot. He said it is pretty straight through. Commissioner Kachel said the meandering doesn’t bother him, it is the bottleneck when you come to the street.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 3 Howard Hamilton said that is called an eyebrow. He said they looked at that with the traffic committee and they had general support for it. He said they did not raise that as a concern. Commissioner Sch inderle asked if this was a reduction in the width of Meadow Lane. Howard Hamilton said on the plat as you see it right now yes, but as we have agreed to with the developers it will be exactly the same as what we have up through Walkers Grove which is 36 foot road with a 66 foot right -of -way with a 10 foot easement in each front yard with sidewalks and then a 40 -foot building setback on each of those properties. He said when we are done we actually have more than 80 foot right -of -way. Chairman Sobkovia k asked the developer to make his comments. Ed Welch, attorney for developer, asked this to be considered tonight with conditions if necessary. He said they have agreed to the 40 foot setback for the buildings along Meadow Lane and that will probably cau se them to lose one of the lots which will then address the other staff comment on the width on the northern portion. He said they also agree with the no access easement on the corner lots along Meadow Lane. He said in the annexation agreement – it propo ses that we deposit funds for the construction of that in escrow because it doesn’t make sense to build that until the subdivision to the south would be built and then you can continue that. He said other than that they think this is a good project. He s aid Pasquinelli has done other projects in town and is a good builder. He asked they consider this project tonight. Larry Peterman, Pasquinelli Development Group, said they will work with the traffic committee as to where is necessary another connection. He said the connections between communities are important so people do not always have to go out on the main roads. Chairman Sobkoviak asked Staff if they could leave that to the traffic committee to specify the exact location of that. He asked if there were questions for the developer at this time. Commissioner Kachel said the board had mentioned purchasing other property. He said he did not know what they logic was. He said they mentioned the bridge and you have taken care of that. He said t he fact that this is all in the Norman Drain was any of it revolving around the facts that they wanted a larger detention that would fit in that area to take care of everything rather than have one water detention area down below here and the piece of prop erty above will have more detention area. Planner Carroll said from what he understood their basic concern was it is kind of narrow up there and with the impact of Meadow Lane, there is only so much you can do. He said he thought if they had the parcel t o the west they could do more with the subdivision layout. Commissioner Kachel said we are getting so many small water detention areas and it would be nice if we could designate a larger area to be a nice area for everybody. Larry Peterman said basically the site all drains down to Normantown. Chairman Sobkoviak then opened the meeting for public comments.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 4 Juan Carlos Hernandez, resident of Harvest Glen subdivision, asked if we were getting greedy. He said the other subdivisions were not fully develope d. He also asked about the block length. Chairman Sobkoviak said we are not giving them the land, they own. He said the owner of property is entitled to the highest and best use of his property. Howard Hamilton said the Village Code is the minimum lo t length should be 300 feet. He said your subdivision probably has some blocks that are not 300 feet because that is the way properties are shaped. He said we cannot always get that. He said that is why the code was written specifically saying should. Steve Stantori, resident of Walkers Grove subdivision, said you hit it when you said bottleneck there, you are going to have cars flying down from Walkers Grove, cars coming up from that side. He asked if there was access to Rt. 30 and said you would have to go through Harvest Glen. He said that is the main street so everybody will be going that way. Chairman Sobkoviak said we planned Meadow Lane to run from down in Whispering Creek all the way up north. Commissioner Kachel said eventually it will go both ways if they want to go to Rt. 30. He said they will come down and come across 143 rd Street. He said you will have an intersection at both ends eventually when the property to the south develops. Steve Stantori asked if there would be townhouses i n there. He asked what the starting price would be. The response was it is all single family. Larry Peterman said estimates right now would probably start about $230,000 and go up but we have not really finalized that yet as a base. He said average con tracts are running about $300,000 now. Chairman Sobkoviak said houses are selling like cars now. You get a base price and get upgrades. Amy Smith asked if 135 th would be widened. Howard Hamilton said 135 th Street is a 36 foot wide road that is built with a full bituminous section which means that road is actually 15 inches thick asphalt. He said it is built for heavy traffic. He said the 36 -foot width is so you can get three lanes of traffic or you can always have turn lanes in the middle. He thoug ht it was designed for 14,000 cars per day. He said IDOT has recently approved a study by the Village to widen Rt. 30 intersection. He said with Walgreens later tonight you will hear more about that. He said as far as west of here, another project we ar e working with is Grande Park. He said they will be improving the road from Nature’s Crossing and the bridge over the west Norman Drain. He said the right -of way is 80 feet so 2 lanes of traffic could be added and the utilities are set up for that. Joan ne Macis, resident of Harvest Glen subdivision, asked if the bottleneck was at the top of the map.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 5 Chairman Sobkoviak said you are calling this a bottleneck it is just an intersection. He explained when we were referring to the bottleneck we were talking about the eyebrow that little cul -de -sac. He said physically it will not be a bottleneck. He said the width and everything will be standard. Joanne Macis said she understood that asked if that is where 135 th Street would be. She said with the subdiv ision going in they will be rezoning the school districts again. She asked if this subdivision would be going to Walkers Grove also. Chairman Sobkoviak asked Mrs. Eichelberger to respond. Mrs. Eichelberger, Plainfield School representative, said she did not know. Joanne Marcis stated she is concerned for the safety of the walking children with the construction traffic in the area. Chairman Sobkoviak said whenever a subdivision goes in with another subdivision along side of it, we get developers to agre e to block construction traffic from cutting through the subdivision. He said however 135 th Street is a public street. He said we have no control over what drives down there other than the normal speed regulations, stop signs etc. Commissioner Kachel as ked if there were going to be lights or any crossing where they can push a button and go across. Howard Hamilton said there is not a plan right now but the community service officers are out there when the kids are walking to and from school. He said th e Chief is adding more officers. Joanne Marcis asked if 135 th goes all the way through to 143 rd Street. She said when Harvest Glen was constructed the traffic was routed to the other entrance. Chairman Sobkoviak said it will go further than that. Commi ssioner Kachel said the other entrance isn’t there right now. Chairman Sobkoviak said there is no development to the south yet, but if it was there we would do something like that. He said 135 th is a public street just like any other. He said if you f ind there are flagrant traffic violations you can call the police chief and he does respond to public comments. Reid Paxson asked if the developer was going to build also. He asked if there was going to be a larger roadway like in Walker’s Grove. Chai rman Sobkoviak said it will cross 143 rd and ultimately it would go all the way down to Whispering Creek where it bends around and comes into Indian Boundary. Stuart Bledsoe asked about the open green space and if it was usable. Larry Peterman said the la nd out there is primarily floodplain land, it is usable land but the Park District will not accept it as donation because it is floodplain. He said the intent is they will take this and tie it in, they can put in soccer fields but no buildings can be put there. He said what their intent is, that floodplain is off the picture down here but it comes up to the west of this site
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 6 and up through Nature’s Crossing. He said there are currently 2 proposals before the Village where this actually extends further an d goes north to 127 th . He explained it is usable land for only for certain things. Stuart Bledsoe asked when the Board was going to accept open space for usable land. Chairman Sobkoviak asked what his definition for usable land. Stuart Bledsoe said you cannot build on floodplain. Chairman Sobkoviak asked what he wanted to see built there. Stuart Bledsoe said anything for Park District. He said if you put a soccer field in there, a baseball field in there. He said those are unusable pieces of prope rty for Park District. He said you cannot maintain floodplain property, which was explained to him by the Park District. He said they can put it in put they cannot maintain it. Chairman Sobkoviak said part of it is a matter of value. He said floodpla in property has a value. He said buildable property when you put a building on it has an extremely higher value. He said the generosity of a builder is only so big. He said he doesn’t have to give us this property. He said it can be developed, it is ve ry expensive but they do not have to give it to us. Ed Welch said you have to take into account that under your ordinance there is a donation of either land or cash in lieu of land that is developable and is buildable and the Park District in this case ha s asked for cash in lieu instead of additional properties. He said they want to use the cash in lieu to try to acquire other property and link this open space. He said in this case they could get several other acres of buildable land. John Vann, Plainfi eld Park District representative, agreed. Kathy Bledsoe said she hears money instead of land but the money is for the Park District and it does not go into park equipment. She said we have open space by us and it is all garbage land. She said it looks t errible and you can’t do nothing with it. She said you can’t put back stops, the kids can’t even play in there because the weeds are high, it is open space and it is Park District and they got money to put stuff in there but it is garbage land. Chairman Sobkoviak said you need to talk to the Park District. Commissioner Kachel said you talk about wet space area and places like that, some of it is natural habitat. He said everyone would like a cut and maintained green space to the back of their yards but before all the houses were built we had all kinds of things. He said people do not want critters in their back yard but the state and federal government are looking very strongly at that and a whole lot of people are going for open land. He said even tho ugh they are not manicured back there, they do serve a whole lot of purpose and it might not be a park for a planning park but it is a part where people can commune with nature. He said he understands where you are coming from but there are a lot of small neighborhood parks, if you look at all the developments and you put a small neighborhood park in, sometimes they are not maintained. He said it is nice to have a bigger park where everyone can go in and make use of it. Reid Paxson asked if this was zoni ng and annexation hearing.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 7 Chairman Sobkoviak said it is annexation and preliminary plat. Reid Paxson said so this is not part of Plainfield yet. Chairman Sobkoviak said not at this moment. Reid Paxson said you do not have to accept this. Chairman S obkoviak said that is correct we can’t. He said the Village Board makes the decision. Cathy Zimmerman asked if these streets were going to tie into Harvest Glen at Brett Street and Madison Street. Ed Welch said yes. Cathy Zimmerman asked what was goin g to be done about the traffic flow through Harvest Glen to get to Rt. 30. She asked if there would be a stop light at Fescue and Rt. 30 eventually. Chairman Sobkoviak said you think they are going to go through your subdivision rather than go to 135 th a nd over. Cathy Zimmerman said they do it now. Chairman Sobkoviak said the subdivision isn’t there now. Cathy Zimmerman said the parents dropping their kids off at Walkers Grove go through our subdivision to turn right on 30. She said they are doing it now and you have added another 211 homes, also possibly attending Walkers Grove and not able to turn onto 30 from 135 th Street, not to mention construction traffic. Chairman Sobkoviak said those concerns are usually addressed with speed limit signs, st op signs and strict enforcement. Cathy Zimmerman asked how to get stricter enforcement. Chairman Sobkoviak said call the Chief. He said the Chief is well aware of the problems around Walkers Grove. Ed Welch said that is why you utilize curvilinear stre ets so it doesn’t make a straight shot to do the traffic movements and turns and it makes easier to get up to 35 and go to the intersection where you are going to have cars backing out of driveways and things like that. Joanne Macis said people are goin g to want to avoid the collector street. Chairman Sobkoviak said that is not going to be highway 30 or anything. Commissioner Schinderle said you don’t have Meadow Lane in there now. He said you don’t have any street in there now.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 8 Chairman Sobkoviak said it becomes like every other neighborhood. Joanne Macis said they have problems now. She said there are illegal violations happening now between 8:30 and 9:00 a.m. She explained the dangers for the small children. Commissioner Kachel said you can not stop development. He said he has lived in Plainfield since he was 15 years old. He said it use to take him 5 minutes to get into and across town, now he lives in town and it takes him 20 minutes to get from here to there because of all the new develo pments including your that have gone in. He said as developers come in and there is open land you cannot stop him, the best you can do on this end is to make sure that the traffic flow is right as far as the roadways, how it ties in, if the lots are adequ ate, the open space. He said that is all we can do. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if Planner Carroll was on the traffic committee. Planner Carroll said yes. Chairman Sobkoviak said Planner Carroll will take your concerns to the traffic committee. Someone a sked when the development would start. Larry Peterman said last this year. Laurie Frank, Harvest Glen, asked if 135 th was going to be widened. Howard Hamilton said the intersection of Rt. 30 is to be widened. He said they have a traffic study on that , it is a two year project that was just finished up 6 months ago that is sitting up at IDOT. He said Grande Park will pick up from Prairie Ponds. He said we are looking at turn lane improvements now. Laurie Frank asked how far the road would be widened as her property backs up to 135 th . Howard Hamilton said it would not be widened outside the right -of -way. He said the right -of -way is 80 feet and that is adequate. She asked if it would be 4 lanes. Howard Hamilton said there are no plans for that righ t now. He said if that happens in the future, there is adequate right -of -way to do that without acquiring additional land. She asked how close to the sidewalk they would come. Howard Hamilton said they can come in as close as 5 feet to the sidewalk. He said he would have to look at the plans. Renee McPherson said down on Caton Farm Road because of the growth out there and she feels a lot of times we are putting the cart before the horse. She said out there she sees the same thing they are talking ab out – the explosion of houses is unbelievable and she knows that Caton Farm is slated to be 4 lane eventually but why didn’t they do that ahead of time. She asked why we have 900 houses going up here and 500 here and we are all still trying to come down a 2 -lane road.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 9 Chairman Sobkoviak said typically if you go out and build a 4 lane highway they will say you shouldn’t do that because you will bring houses in there. He said now if you wait till the houses are in there, they will say why did you wait so l ong to build this 4 -lane highway. Renee McPherson said we let the houses come in but we do not plan for the schools, we do not plan for the roads and then we hear a lot of frustration because we have all these homes. She said one day coming back from chu rch she and her children counted 72 cars at Caton Farm. Howard Hamilton said he knows, he said Plainfield is very careful, we have traffic plans, water plans. He said if you ever come to the Village look at the walls, they are covered with maps because w e have planned out for how it develops. He said Mrs. Eichelberger can confirm that most of the problems with the School district aren’t really the Village of Plainfield. Renee McPherson said she knows where she is is an island surrounded by Joliet. Sh e asked if we would plan just a nice small neighborhood where kids could ride their bikes and not have massive townhomes. Chairman Sobkoviak said these are relatively small neighborhoods. He said 2 housing units per acre – that is pretty sparse. She s aid this is one of the few that she has heard, out by her was 900 here, 700 here, 500 here. Commissioner Schinderle said you are in Joliet and they have a whole different concept as to how they are going to let development take place. Commissioner Kachel said Joliet, Bolingbrook, Romeoville, they have all expanded to the maximum area of the land they have use of, optimizing it and building as much as they can and their kids are all coming to our school district and we have no control over it unfortunately . Scott Carroll said a subdivision of this size having one exit to a thoroughfare is going to cause problems. He said a subdivision of this size should have two entrances and considering 143 rd route should be considered with this development and not afte r. Chairman Sobkoviak said they do not own the land. Scott Carroll said the city ought to buy it. He said another thing is the schools Walkers Grove. He said we are adding 200 more homes to this area. He said his final concern was drainage. He said r ight now that field floods. Chairman Sobkoviak said that is a concern that will be addressed when we get to the next step in the process, however, Howard may have a comment on the drainage. Howard Hamilton said it should be better. He said you probably have seen us out there digging field tile. He said it is your typical flat land. Steve Cross, engineer for Chaplin Farm, stated you could put a pond next to that low spot and discharge it over land where it goes right now.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 10 Chairman Sobkoviak said we will get very specific in the next step. He said this is called preliminary plat and it is just above concept. He said they are telling us what the lot sizes are, what the street sizes are and things like that. He said when we get to final plat we will get to the nitty gritty of the drainage and actual location of manholes and things like that. Scott Carroll asked how far south this property goes. Response was just north of the drain. Scott Carroll asked if they were capturing the bridge that would h ave to be built to go to 143 rd . Steve Cross said yes we are, we cannot get there right now but they have set aside the right -of -way and set aside the money to build that one. Harry Martinez, resident of Walkers Grove, said schools should not be an after thought. Commissioner Kachel said there are plans for schools by the School District, there are points all around the area where there are schools every so far. Chairman Sobkoviak said we have not connected the dots yet. He said there are several enti ties that are jockeying for property to build services. He said the Fire Department, the schools, Library District. He said if they were to telegraph their moves to everybody what do you think the price of that property would do. He said they have a plan . He said in some cases the Fire Department has already purchased land and it is just sitting there. Mrs. Eichelberger, representative of School District, said they will have another school opening next fall at Wilding Point. She said not all of these c hildren will be able to go to Walkers Grove. She said Walkers Grove is filled to capacity right not and that is one of the reasons the boundary committee is having such a problem right not. Joanne Macis said in reference to the people whose homes back u p to 135 th Street, she asked Howard to verify from where the curbside stands now to where the asphalt walking road is 5 feet. Howard Hamilton said there is a bike path and he believes that is more than a foot off the property. Joanne Macis asked if wit h the expansion of 135 th Street. Howard Hamilton said that is an if. He said if the traffic counts get high enough and that needs to be widened there is adequate roadway width to accommodate a bike path or sidewalk and a 5 -lane road. He said if you are telling me the bike path is that close, it would have to be relocated. Chairman Sobkoviak said the time for public comments on this case is now closed. He said the Commissioners were free to discuss among ourselves and question staff and/or the petitio ner. He said there are two questions involved, the first is annexation, is this a logical extension of the village boundaries and second is preliminary plat. He said if you are not satisfied with the preliminary plat we could agree on the annexation ques tion, however, he reminded them Staff recommended continuing this case.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 11 Planner Carroll said the main concern with Staff was the intersection there to the north the 300 feet and what effects the redesign of that would have to the rest of the plat. Commis sioner Schinderle said he thought that was resolved. Planner Carroll said that was since the Staff report was written. Howard Hamilton said what will change is the setbacks and the right of way. Commissioner Schinderle said that comes up when we revie w the next step. Commissioner Kachel asked Planner Carroll if he was comfortable with it now so we can go forward. Chairman Sobkoviak said we will wait until final plat to review any sought after changes. Planner Carroll agreed. Chairman Sobkoviak s aid he thought this was a logical extension of the Village Boundary. H Commissioner Manning asked if we recommend this go forward with the Village will there be stipulations. Chairman Sobkoviak said he would recommend the stipulations brought by the Vil lage Engineer are agreed to. Howard Hamilton said yes. Commissioner Kachel said with the bridge at the lower end of it, we talked about it being built at a later date while the roadway from that bridge to 143 rd isn’t all that far. He asked where we were looking at connecting that in the next couple years. He said with construction and movement it would be nice to have that open rather than have all the traffic at 135 th where it could flow down that way and bring it across. Chairman Sobkoviak said you w ould have to put in a box culvert. Commissioner Kachel said if we are in the process of doing it now and it is such a small area – it is a potential to put something in it and later on be passed on to the developer. He asked if that was something that sh ould be looked at. Howard Hamilton said one of the things that Doug did not record was under the Administrator’s report last night was that when the closing came for Farmington Village last week did not take place. He said it would only be 800 feet to 14 3 rd . Commissioner Kachel said all the development we are getting to the west and 143 rd does have a traffic light now. He said by brining it down even if Farmington is not in right now, it would alleviate some of that traffic and bring it down 30. Howard Hamilton said that would be a good recommendation to make to the Board. He said there will be an escrow account for the bridge.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 12 Chairman Sobkoviak said that could be made as a stipulation. Ed Welch said we would do the portion on our property and if th e Village wanted to acquire the right -of -way. Howard Hamilton said he did not know the condition of 143 rd west of 30 off the top of his head. Commissioner Kachel said it has been black topped. He said if we look at it now with this development going in, we are already one step ahead when the next development goes in. Howard Hamilton suggested you find that you recommend that you extend that to 143 rd at this time to relieve traffic along 135 th . He said then that leaves it open. He said you are not sayi ng that these guys should build it or the Village should build it. Chairman Sobkoviak presented a list of possible stipulations; the first one will be compliance with the requirements of the Village Engineer. He said next will be compliance with the requ irements of the Fire Protection District, the Park District and School Board and to extend Meadow Lane south to 143 rd . He asked if there were any other stipulations. Commissioner Kachel said that will not be your part. Ed Welch said you are including it as a stipulation to extend it. Chairman Sobkoviak said not to the developer but to the Village, that the Village extend Meadow Lane. He asked if there were any other stipulations. Commissioner Schinderle asked if part of the annexation indicated the type of zoning. Chairman Sobkoviak said by default it would be R -1. He said it is better to stipulate. Commissioner Manning asked about the lot widths and setbacks listed in the Village Engineer’s report. Howard Hamilton said what he did was point out discrepancies of the Village code. He said Village code for this road would be the 80 -foot right -of -way. He said when Walkers Grove came in and we allowed the 66 feet with the 10 -foot easements and he did not feel comfortable as the engineer recommendin g you to vary the code. He just set forth what the code was. Commissioner Manning said he understood that but he did not see it specifically addressed in your letter the lot widths, which Doug addressed in his report about the Village setback. Ed Welch said if you refer to the stipulation that we agreed to the 40 foot setback on Meadow Lane, that takes care of the lot width, we will lose a lot and we will have to reconfigure those lots and it has a domino effect so that will address those lots along that portion of the property which is where Doug’s comments. Commissioner Manning said so the stipulation of the setback would be sufficient. Ed Welch said that is all you need for that because that will take care of that.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 13 Chairman Sobkoviak said if that se tback is in here. Ed Welch said it was in the Staff report. Commissioner Manning said it is not a stipulation. Ed Welch said but we agree. He said the other portion of Meadow Lane was no access on the corner lots onto there and we agreed to that as w ell. Chairman Sobkoviak said that will include the no access easements on the corner lots. He said the stipulations complied by the Plan Commission would be compliance with the requirements of the Village Engineer; compliance with the requirements of the Fire Protection District, Park District, and School Board; that we recommend to the Village that they extend Meadow Lane down to 143 rd using the contribution from the developer to install a box culvert; that the setbacks on Meadow Lane should be as descri bed in the Staff report which also includes no access easements on corner lots and that the developer has agreed to add an additional stub street to the west pending recommendations from the traffic committee. Commissioner Schinderle so moved. Commission er Kachel seconded the motion. Chairman Sobkoviak said a motion has been made and seconded to recommend approval to the Village Board the approval of the annexation with R -1 zoning, and the acceptance of the preliminary plat for the Pasquinelli developmen t south of 135 th west of Harvest Glen. Vote by roll call: AYE: Kachel, Gehrke, Schinderle, Manning and Sobkoviak NAY: None Vote 5 -0 Motion carried. Chairman Sobkoviak told the applicant to be in touch with Staff for the next hearing date. CASE NO: 850 -010501.AA/PP SOHOL PROPERTY Planner Carroll said this was a public hearing for annexation and preliminary plat. He said the applicant is proposing to develop approximately 180 acres of agriculture land for about 330 single family unit subdivision. He in dicated Natures Crossing was to the southeast, explained where Prairie Ponds would be, 127 th Street to the north and Heggs to the west and unincorporated to the west as well. He said part of this property is subject to a pre -annexation agreement and incor porates approximately the north 180 acres and another 40 acres. He said basically that pre -annexation agreement states that when these properties become contiguous to the Village (he explained where the Tuttle Farm was and it would go before Village Board the 26th) it is automatically annexed in. He explained the portion that was not automatically included. He said the Plan Commission considered a concept plan for this also in 1998. He said at that time it was a little bit different, the applicant had s ome multi -family and at that time the Plan Commission and Village Board recommended single family units instead. He said it had similar open space along the West Norman Drain. He said the Concept Plan Committee has seen this plan as well in November of 2 000. He said the Concept Plan Committee was concerned with some of the side yard requests, which fell below village standards as well as they commented on the open space.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 14 He said as far as land use the subject site is in the estate district of the Compre hensive Plan. He said the Comprehensive Plan suggests a gross density of 1.1 to 1.75 with open space ratio of 30 to 60%. He said the applicant proposes a gross density of 1.82 and open space ratio of about 30%. He said for comparison purposes, the Tuttl e farm located to the east and is located in the Village and Suburban and Estate District, Plan Commission approved that with a density of 2.08 and open space ration of 25%. He said Prairie Ponds located to the south of the subject property and in the Est ate District had a density of 1.59 and open space ratio of 32%. He said Kensington Club at the corner of Rt. 59 and 127 th is in the Estate District and was approved with a density of 1.9. He said it appears the gross density is slightly higher than the C omprehensive Plan threshold but is in the range of recently approved developments. He said retention and open space is provided along the West Norman Drain. He said the West Norman Drain bisects the parcel into about 1/3. He said the open space consists of about 55 acres, which is about 30% of the site. He said the northeast corner has quite a significant amount of usable open space. He said the Park District is working with the applicant and the Tuttle Farm to the east so we have a huge regional park. Planner Carroll said preliminary plat indicates an average lot size of 11,959 feet, minimum is about 10,000. He said the density is 1.8 dwelling units per acre. He said the applicant is requesting side yards of 8 feet and lots widths of 76 feet. He said Village requirements are 10 feet and 85 feet. He said the Concept Plan had concerns with the lot sizes and reduced side yards especially since the site is located within the Estate District. He said in the past no project in the Estate District has been approved with reduced side yards so that is a concern of Staff. He indicated the smaller lot sizes and said the applicant has approximately 10,000 square feet in this area and stated it was similar to the Tuttle Farm. He said Staff recommends bumpi ng up the lot sizes in another area up to 12,000 square feet to be more specific with the Estate District and the Comprehensive Plan. He said in the Estate District it recommends buffers along roads so you have a buffer along Heggs, along 127 th . He indic ated how Kensington Club accomplished this with their detention. He said this applicant may have a hard time putting their detention to act as a buffer due to the West Norman Drain. He said Staff would recommend a landscape easement to be more consistent with the Estate District. Planner Carroll said curvilinear and parallel street – he indicated a main street that connects to the Tuttle Farm as 31 feet in 66 feet of right of way. He said the north south road is 31 feet back to back and 66 feet of rig ht of way and that is consistent with Village policy. He said the other internal streets are 28 feet in 60 feet of right of way. He said it appears to be traffic calming and results in less maintenance for the public works department. He said regarding annexation the subject property is contiguous to the village limits and subject property is within the village facility planning area. He said Staff feels the property is a logical extension to the Village limits. He said the applicant requests R -1 resid ential zoning. He said they will have to bring water basically from Heritage Meadows, which is located to the east along 127 th Street. He said there are some engineering issues. Planner Carroll said the project has some obvious benefits the West Norm an Drain here to provide open space, the park to connect to the park to the east and again connecting to the park to the south and on and on. He said Staff has concerns with the side yards especially since this project is in the Estate District of the Com prehensive Plan. He said in lieu of that fact, Staff recommends continuing this case. He said the applicant is present and all public comments should be considered. Chairman Sobkoviak asked what kind of lot widths were approved in the Tuttle Farm.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 15 Pl anner Carroll said he could not remember off the top of his head. He said the lot widths along the east property line were consistent with the Tuttle Farm. He said to keep in mind that the Tuttle Farm was in a different district. Commissioner Kachel ask ed how many subdivision we have put in the Estate District. He said so many of them have been downsized. Planner Carroll thought about 6. Howard Hamilton said he has already discussed the first 2 items with the applicant and their engineer. He said there are no improvement plans for 127 th or Heggs. He said those are 2 items that will added to the annexation agreement. He said the Village code requires street 31 feet wide and 66 -foot right -of -way. He said traffic committee is currently supporting 2 8 -foot wide streets and narrowed right -of -ways as traffic calming devises. He said your Village Engineer will always say school buses and garbage trucks. He said B Street has come in with 28 feet width and that street needs to be wider. He said this lik e all other projects that we have seen in this corridor require that the Rt. 30 relief sewer be built. He said this one also requires Prairie Ponds to the south be constructed to get the West Norman interceptor to this property so they have sewage service . He said they need to extend a 12 -inch water main from 127 th Street, that is part of our master plan. He said in order to get that water Tuttle has to come in to bring the water from Heritage Meadows. Commissioner Schinderle asked about the widening of B Street. Howard Hamilton said taking B Street to the east would be the Culver Farm. He said he did not think anyone here would see that developed. He said we do not show that on the transportation plan to be a relief. He said really do not want it to be the same class road, we want people to get to those roads. He said it made sense to make this a connection, this is a good plan. He said this just isn’t the place were we should talk about narrower streets. He said we want to move the cars essenti ally to Heggs Road. Commissioner Kachel said this has pretty much been what we have come up with on all the projects we have had where we have tried to maintain the street sizes as far as the width on them. He said developments up north are very clogge d. Howard Hamilton said back a few years ago Shorewood tried some narrower streets and opened a new subdivision and the first day of school was also garbage day and the kids were ½ hour late for school. He said that is why all engineers will always saw w ider streets. He said narrower streets are traffic calming but now you have the unfortunate problem people have the wider streets and they can’t drive 25 miles an hour, it is not natural. He said when the new subdivision control ordinance is done we ar e going to recommend that the Board and Plan Commission to start driving around these subdivisions and try to get they mind on what they think Plainfield should look like. Commissioner Kachel said 25 years up north and all the streets where they tear up t he farm land, the wider streets you can still get down the streets, get by without having to worry about kids running out, they are terrible, you cannot even back out of their driveways sometimes. Planner Carroll said the traffic committee actually suppor ts the 28 -foot street or have streets that are connecting to other neighborhoods.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 16 Howard Hamilton said it is not unanimous because Joe Regis is on the traffic committee. Chairman Sobkoviak asked the developer to introduce himself. John Phillipchuck, att orney for MAF, said the Sohol property wanted to do a county subdivision and that was the expansion of the 40 acres and therefore entered into a pre -annexation agreement so he could proceed with the county, get the zoning necessary. He said that is a coun ty subdivision and therefore is well and septic. He said that even though it will be annexed into the Village, it is contemplated to remain with the rural type of improvements rather than the normal Village and structural requirements. He said the prope rty will all be brought in under this amendment to the annexation agreement that has been proposed. He explained the subdivision and the park plan. He suggested a well site could be located there. He stated they have sent out letters trying to get the easement along 127 th Street so the water main system can be extended in this area. He indicated there would be 100 feet right -of -way along Heggs Road which is adequate separation between the two land uses as far as the rural county subdivision and urba n subdivision. He explained the lot sizes in the perimeter and landscaping in the 30 -foot setback along the perimeter. John Phillipchuck said they plan for 15 to possibly as many 30 builders in the subdivision. He said these are semi -custom homes. He said they expect the home prices to be in the $300,000 price range. He said these homes will not bring down the property value. He indicated the minimum lot size was 10,000 square feet with the average lot size of 11,780 square feet. He presented so me pictures from Harmony Grove which is a subdivision MAF developed in Naperville with various lot widths including some smaller then they are asking for here and reduced setbacks. Commissioner Kachel asked the name of the project he mentioned on Rt. 5 9 similar to this one. He asked the width of streets in Ashbury Farms and the side yard setback. John Phillipchuck said Harmony Grove. Bill Haider, president of MAF Development, Bernice Ellis, vice -president of land development, Tim Wyman, Cemcon Engine ering, were present. Bill Haider said they have a mix of lots sizes in Ashbury. He said the minimum lot width was 70 feet and minimum lot size was 8750. He said the minimum side yard requirement was 16 feet total with 8 on both sides. He said some of t he lot had 9 and some 10. He said that project was not quite 1 mile square. He said the streets were 28 feet wide. He said the collectors were 32 he thought which would have been similar to Shenandoah. He discussed the similarities with Harmony Grove and Shenandoah. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they were trying to justify the lot size and setback by showing us pictures of Harmony Grove. Bill Haider said the purpose is to show you the differences. He said there are 4 different lot widths with differen t setbacks. Commissioner Schinderle asked what the Fire Department says about the setback. Bill Haider said he could not answer that.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 17 John Phillipchuck said they looked into that on another subdivision and they found that basically none of the natio nal codes required any kind of side yard setback anywhere near that. He said if you get within 3 feet, there are certain firewall requirements in the fire code in the wall components but not for anything above that. He said they have a letter but they do not speak as to the side yards. He said they do not feel it is a fire issue. He said he represents developers and builders in many communities and we typically have side yards that are 10% of the lot width and usually do not exceed 80 feet in width. He said the Board has recommended in favor of in the past and we hope the Plan Commission would see fit to move this forward and recommend it on to the Board. Bill Haider said they do not build houses, they are not a production builder, we do not have a sta ndard footprint with 4 or 5 different models. He said he could have as many as 40 builders with some of the builders building 10 to 15 homes and some only building 1 or 2. He said they may have 4 or 5 of their own designs but they also do custom designs. He said nothing against the production builder but it is a different market segment, we are higher end and allow for greater architecture integrity. He said they do not have basically one foot print that even though they have 15 or 30 builders they are all building the same house because we are restricted because of the side yard requirements. He said it allows for greater creativity Chairman Sobkoviak asked if the Commissioners have any questions immediately. Commissioner Manning stated the side ya rd setback variance bothers him a great deal. He said he had not heard a valid reason as to why we should allow that other than you want it. John Phillipchuck said he would not say we want it, but that is what the market has told them the people want it. He said some people like 15,000 square feet and some people like an acre. He said side yards are probably the biggest waste of space. He said people tend to recreate in their back yards. He said a lot of subdivisions have gone to 25 -foot front yards rather than 30 because people want to use the rear of their homes rather than the front. He said the requirements of 40 -foot front yards on Meadow so there are differences in various hierarchies. He said they have found people do not necessarily want the bigger lots with more grass to cut. Commissioner Manning said if we go to the 85 -foot width and 10 feet side yard setbacks you would have a harder time selling them. Mr. Phillipchuck said we would have a harder time selling them because that is not wh at the market is telling us they want. He said take a look at Tuttle – those lots are not 85 feet either. He said you will be hard pressed to find subdivisions in the last 5 years in Plainfield that have 85 feet lots. He said there may be some larger an d there are cul -de -sacs. He said that is the minimum requirement but not what they all are. Chairman Sobkoviak asked Planner Carroll what kind of lot widths have we been seeing. He said not talking about the ones around the cul -de -sacs. He said those w e have had down to 50 feet but on a relatively straight street. Planner Carroll said 80 to 85 feet in suburban. Chairman Sobkoviak said this is estate district. He then opened the meeting for public comments.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 18 David King said he is an adjacent landowne r on the north side of 127 th where the Normantown Creek goes through. He asked where the water and sewer would be placed. Howard Hamilton said the sewer would come from Nature’s Crossing. He indicated where Prairie Ponds would be and how it would go thr ough further north. He indicated the water is planned on the north side of 127 th . He said it goes back and forth as they negotiate the easements. David King said he has a little problem with the north side of the road on his parcel and on the south si de on another parcel he has. He said Wheatland has so much right -of -way and Plainfield Village has a wider right -of -way and he loses 5 or 10 feet of property on whichever side of the road you take it on. He said he is not in the Village yet but the Villa ge can expand my right -of -way. Howard Hamilton said it is pretty likely that with Sohol here, they will probably keep it down on the south side. David King said with the sewer going through there he is concerned with the creek going through there. H e said with the neglect of the creek for the last 60 years, he asked if it will aid it or abate it. The applicants will clean out the area they own only. He said they will get the necessary permits. David King said we do not want to change the level of the water. Chairman Sobkoviak said they do not want their new houses to flood out. He said it would probably take they 6 years to build out. David King asked about the access to this subdivision. Howard Hamilton said there will be three today and anot her one later. He said Prairie Ponds has to be there to get the sewer and Tuttle has to be there to get the water. Jean Nash, resident of Wheatland Plains, expressed concern for the lot size, schools and safety of children. She people will buy these hou ses. Chairman Sobkoviak said the density proposed for this is very close to the density that would be defined in the estate district. He said 10,000 square foot lots doesn’t mean 4 houses to the acre. He said it doesn’t work that way. Jean Nash said 2 houses will fit in her lot. Chairman Sobkoviak said the reason your lot is that big is because of the need for septic and well. He said if you didn’t need a septic and well they wouldn’t build on lots that big. Jean Nash said they are still 10,000 squ are foot lots. Commissioner Kachel said the problem with estate district is when we drafted out our Comprehensive Plan, the growth in Plainfield and everything around here, it was never thought that it would build out nearly as quickly as it has. He sa id unfortunately with it building out that
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 19 quickly, areas that would have been in the estate district which may have had their own well and septic systems. He said that would work out perfect in an estate. He said we have expanded out so quickly, it is n ice to have big homes and estates but to have that size lot today and size house you have to put on it, you have to have people that are attracted on that end of it. He said White Eagle and places like that; we have not had people like that knocking on th e doors to come in. He said this developer does have good mixes. He said the plan is there but it hasn’t been working for us. Kurt Hewen, Wheatland Plains resident, asked how many homes are proposed. Response was 331. Kurt Hewen said in looking at i t obviously anybody who lives in this area doesn’t want to see the fields disappear but we all know that they are going to eventually. He said in his opinion he was in favor of this subdivision. He said it appears to him that there is more care put into this subdivision compared to some of the one he has previously seen. He said there appears to be multiple entrances into this subdivision. He said he thought they took into consideration the surrounding properties and making some type of buffer. Alicia Davis said she was curious about the development phase. She asked how long it would take to develop this and where would they start on the property. Chairman Sobkoviak asked applicant the time for build out, how many phases you are going to use etc. Bil l Hadier said they will be waiting for the completion of the treatment plant expansion that is projected to be completed the end of this year some time in December. He said his opinion he has added an additional 6 months to that as a realistic start date. He said assuming development is completed down to the south of us we would be able to start immediately otherwise they would have to work out agreements to go ahead and place the sanitary line within that development so we can get sanitary to our souther n boundaries. He said from a marketing standpoint we need to get out main entry in which would be Shenandoah Trail. He explained they would work along Shenandoah Trail, along the area where the water would some in, the entire stormwater management area, open space area and the development with the model homes and various lots they would mark for the initial phase. He said from there they would most likely move directly west to get the next entryway in. He said from start to what they call a build out th ey would probably look at 4 or 5 years from the time the first home gets built to the last home being built. He said that is all subject to job growth, market and interest rates and all the other economic conditions that fall in line. He said they are l ooking at starting out at $300,000.00. He said additionally that ends up being the low end that I give at a Plan Commission or Village Board meeting. He said sometimes it averages out at 30 to 50% higher for the entire development for the entire developm ent for the initial sale price of the homes. He said low -end 2800 square feet and high end 3600 square feet with many of them having 3 car garages. Alicia Davis asked about the park development. Bill Haider said a good majority of this will be developed in Phase 1 because of the stormwater management facility adjacent to it. He said much of the area they will be creating the lakes from they are going to be leveling out the park space for usable fields.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 20 Jim Roller, Wheatland Plains resident, asked how far south of 127 th Street you will go. He asked about Swift Run Road. Bill Haider said about 1600 feet. Chairman Sobkoviak asked for other comments. He then said the Commissioners are free to questions the petitioner and Staff. Commissioner Schinderl e said he still has a problem with 70 -foot lot and 8 foot setback. He said he prefers the 10 -foot setback in the side yard. Bill Haider said they are not proposing 70 foot width, he said he only used that as an example. He said their minimum is 76 feet but the majority is 80 feet wide. Commissioner Schinderle said it looks like you have a lot of 80 and 82 foot. Bill Haider said on many of these you will see over 20 feet separation because of the house that is actually contracted to be built there. He said on some instances it will allow for a different footprint, possibly more expensive, higher assessed valuation home can be built there for that particular buyer. Commissioner Kachel said when the Comprehensive Plan was originally designed – we did not talk about the green space and open space at that time. He said when you look at a development like this and look at the open space and park area that will be shared by everyone. Chairman Sobkoviak said Alan Anderson used to point out the estate di strict is a vista and that is what we have here. He said as you come down 127 th almost half of the face to 127 th is a vista. Commissioner Kachel said even thought it is an estate district, it might not be an estate but it has the character of an estate d istrict and the types of homes are nice homes. He said lot sizes – he has more of a problem with the side yard setbacks. He said when you get into the larger area; it doesn’t look like long narrow lots. He said like in Chicago, when you get closer and c loser and you get a long narrow profile. He said he likes the wider side yard setbacks and the streets, it is one of those things we are seeing more common. Chairman Sobkoviak said he could live with the lot width but not the setbacks. Commissioner Gehr ke said she has a problem with it also, she lives on an 80 -foot lot and she would not want it any closer. Chairman Sobkoviak said a bigger issue is no improvements plans are shown for 127 th Street or Heggs Road. He said this subdivision will receive the benefit of both of those two arteries. He said ordinarily we asked the developers to participate in the development of those roads. Howard Hamilton said they are working on that now. Chairman Sobkoviak said we were looking for advise to include in ou r recommendation.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 21 Howard Hamilton said the advice would be the transportation plan calls for these to be collector streets. He said you have to plat the right -of -way 50 feet wide. He said we have to see what we have available on the north side of the ro ad. Commissioner Schinderle asked if you require anything more than giving us that right -of -way. Howard Hamilton said typically yes, at the bare minimum it would be cash contribution to build the road. John Phillipchuck said we intend to cover that in t he annexation agreement. He said they have not finalized that with the Village Board. He said we are providing for the 50 -foot right -of -way. He said how much of the improvement goes in initially depends of whether they can get the easements from like M r. King and others and the other side of the street, then we can get the whole profile in now and there is usually a way we can recapture the monies they spend on the other half otherwise they have to look at just doing our side. He said they always negot iate that with the Board. Chairman Sobkoviak said the Plan Commission could include a stipulation that they participate in the improvement of those roads as recommended by the Village Engineer. He said we do seem to have an issue with the side yard setba cks. Commissioner Schinderle said with what they propose to do as I say I have some reservation on the side yard setback. Chairman Sobkoviak said using the theory of open space and vista expanse is visual. He said the whole premise or idea of estate d istrict is a visual thing and when you put the houses close together, we lose that visual feeling of openness. He said while it may conform with Fire Department regulations and various safety regulations, we are looking for something that gives you the id ea that you are in an estate district even though you perhaps are not. He said we are looking at almost 2 houses per acre, which is on the raggedy edge of where we would normally approve an estate district development anyway. He said if we get the houses real close together he thought it is going to remove or be negative to the effect we are trying to achieve. Commissioner Manning asked Douglas, you wanted to continue this, is there anything. Planner Carroll said this is typical where we are negotiating at this time. Mr. Phillipchuck said he is hearing the opinions with regard to the side yard setbacks. He said there may be some concerns about the lot widths but he said as Mr. Schinderle pointed out there are a lot of lots that are 80 and above too. He said the plan is what the plan is and we would hope to come back with a final plat that mirror the preliminary as far as the layout and lot sizes so if the Plan Commission is comfortable with the lot size, we certainly would expect that you recommend ap proval and you recommend against the variance of the side yard. He said they understand that. Chairman Sobkoviak said we can put in a stipulation in our recommendation that we do not agree with a side yard setback of less than 10 feet. He said on occ asion we have had lot widths as low as 55 feet, it happens when you have a cul -de -sac. He said you have to be careful how ridged you get on those. He said it would be helpful to know how many lots, you have 230 lots in the development, how many lots have less than 80 feet, ballpark number.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 22 They asked including the cul -de -sac. Mr. Phillipchuck said 20%. Chairman Sobkoviak said but none of them are less than 76 feet. They agreed. They base it at the 30 -foot setback. Chairman Sobkoviak said in t he past they have considered side yard setbacks variations in the cul -de -sac because with these weird shaped lots sometimes you have 2 corners that will be a little close. He said we could like with something like that but on a straight street most of us have a problem with it. He asked Doug said we are searching for reasons that you recommend continuing. He said it was primarily for the setbacks. Planner Carroll said he should note that it was the 10,000 minimum typically for estate we have had 10,500 to 11,000. Chairman Sobkoviak asked how many lots we have less than 10,000 square feet. Commissioner Manning recommended not approving this plat. Commissioner Schinderle suggested we approve it with a stipulation that we do not support the side yard set back and we recommend annexation with R -1 zoning . Discussion was held regarding the stipulations. Chairman Sobkoviak said the standard stipulations are compliance with the requirements of the Village Engineer, compliance with the requirements of the Plai nfield Fire Protection District and that the applicant meet the requirements of the sign ordinance and we do not support the variance of the side yard setback. Commissioner Kachel made a motion to recommend annexation with R -1 zoning and approval of the p reliminary plat subject to the stipulations as previously noted. Commissioner Schinderle seconded the motion. Vote by roll call: AYE: Kachel, Schinderle, Manning and Sobkoviak NAY: Gehrke Vote: 4 -1 Motion carried. Chairman Sobkoviak told the applicant to be in touch with Staff for the next hearing date. CASE NO: 848 -010201.AA/PP WALGREEN.SPR/SU/FP Planner Garrigan stated this is a special use for a pharmacy drive thru a proposed Walgreens and also for site plan review and final plat. He said the prop erty is located on the southwest corner of Rt. 30 and 135 th Street. He said the proposed site is a 15 -acre parcel. He said Walkers Grove School is to the north, to the east is the Copley Press plant, to the west is the Harvest Glen Subdivision. He said for the special use report, the applicant must show that the establishment, maintenance, or operation of the special use will not be detrimental to, or endanger the public health, safety and general welfare. The proposed pharmacy drive -thru window should not pose detriment to the health of the general area. He said with respect to the second test, the applicant must show that the special use will not be injurious to the use and enjoyment of other property or immediately area for the purposes already perm itted, or substantially diminish and impair
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 23 property values. He said again based on Staff’s review, there is no basis to determine that the proposed Walgreens be detrimental to the adjoining property owners. He said the third test is the establishment of the special use will not impede the normal and orderly development and improvements of the adjacent property. He said based on Staff’s review, there is no basis a Walgreens would impede or interfere in any way normal and orderly development of the proper ty or adjacent property. Planner Garrigan said with respect to the proposed site plan review, specifically the proposed Walgreens is to be constructed on the southeast corner of the proposed final plat site on 1.8 acres. He said the proposed Walgreens is proposed for 14,490 square foot. He stated the site plan identifies 2 full access entrances on Route 30 and 135 th Street. He said there is pending currently discussion with Walgreens with respect to the proposed improvements to 135 th Street and he wou ld defer to the Village Engineer to explain those proposed improvements to 135 th and Rt. 30. He said with respect to the elevation and architecture, the site plan review ordinance requires that approximately 25% of the architecture elevation is masonry. He said it appears based on Staff’s review of this the applicant conforms with this requirement. He said Staff recommends landscape improvements along the facades of the proposed elevations to break up some of the facade. He said with regards to stormwat er detention, Staff defers to the engineer’s comments. He said with respect to the landscaping, Staff has reviewed the proposed landscape plans and stated it meets the requirements of site plan review. He said the applicant needs to submit proposed trash enclosures and also lighting specifications. He said the applicant has proposed a 25 -foot sign on the corner of 135 th and Rt. 30. He said this exceeds the current sign ordinance and Staff recommends a lower sign to comply with the current sign ordinance . He said the applicant is seeking final plat for both Lot 1 which constitutes about 1.9 acres and Lot 2 and 3. He said any proposed development on Lot 2 would require submittal of site plan review and preliminary engineering. He said subject to any pub lic comments, Staff recommends approval of the special use permit with stipulations And approval of the final plat with stipulations. Joseph Bodenski and John Hagenow, Location Finders, were present. Mr. Bodenski stated they are co -project managers for t his development. He said they have reviewed and discussed with Staff their comments and recommendations. He said they feel very comfortable and agree with the comments and recommendations and feel they can accommodate them within this site. Howard Ham ilton, Village Engineer, stated they are working on details and are in general agreement with the developers engineer. He said they have to do some more work on 135 th Street. He said there will be some traffic studies and we will have a full recommendati on in the next few weeks. Chairman Sobkoviak asked Commissioners is they had any immediate questions of petitioner or Staff. He then opened the meeting for public comments. Mike Kostal, Harvest Glen resident, said his questions and concerns are with the back of this property. He asked if they were going to have swales and berms in the backs of their properties. Howard Hamilton said the swale that you have today handles the flow off Walkers Grove. He said the applicant is building a wet detention pon d. He said it is normally wet and the water depth is normally 10 feet. He said required side required by state is 5 to 1, which is a flat slope and is required to have a safety ridge 2 feet below the water line.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 24 Mike Kostal asked if they were going to level out the swale in his yard and grade it to the back of the pond. Howard Hamilton said they will not be touching your back yard. Mike Kostal asked what will separate us from the southwest and southeast corner and the detention. Joseph Bodenski sai d they have a swale on their side. He thought their swale will accommodate the overflow from your swale but it is not suppose to. He said there will be a berm in between them also. Mike Kostal asked about berming – he thought the Jewel on Rt. 59 has a f ence or a brick wall to separate the properties. Chairman Sobkoviak said he thought we had trees and a fence. Joseph Bodenski said there will be a 40 -foot landscape easement and berm. Mike Kostal asked how high it would be. Chairman Sobkoviak said grav ity is the controlling factor to the height of a berm, as you cannot get water to stay up there. Mike Kostal asked if a fence was possible. He asked about lighting and night deliveries. Chairman Sobkoviak said we have very strict ordinance on light fixt ures. He said they have to be directed down and no light spillage off their site. He asked what kind of isolation was planned. Mike Kostal said he thought the concern was the wet detention pond 10 -foot deep with a 2 -foot ledge. He said the school is r ight there, lots of little kids and they will be cutting through. He asked if they could get a 10 -foot fence or something other than just trees. Chairman Sobkoviak said right across the street you have all the ponds from Walkers Grove. He said there are ponds everywhere. He said we do not selectively fence them. A voice said she lived at lot 90 and her yard backs up to that. She said she has a 2 -year -old and a 4 -year -old and she said she could not imagine having her kids go to the back yard past some trees and into a wet pond. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if she had a fence across the back of her property. She said no. She said they just moved in and they have not gotten that far yet. She wanted a separation from her property to that – why does it have to be a wet pond. Chairman Sobkoviak said you are looking for a separation. He asked what the land looked like back there and if it was conducive to a barrier or fence. Howard Hamilton said this is really more site plan review than engineering.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 25 Co mmissioner Kachel asked if it had to be to the back. Howard Hamilton said you do not want a pond in the middle of a commercial property. He said remember Meadows Professional. He said the first recommendation was to go with a dry pond because of the nei ghbors behind it and the neighbors’ response was no we prefer a wet pond. Commissioner Kachel asked if the pond would be aerated. Howard Hamilton said at 10 feet deep they shouldn’t. Mike Kostal explained how the drainage runs off the field now. Ho ward Hamilton said a lot of the grates people see in their back yards are what we call secondary storm sewer system. Commissioner Schinderle asked how far from the back of that lot to the homes. He asked about haw far is that from Walgreens to the detent ion pond. Joseph Bodenski said this is roughly a square 800 by 800. He said this is 1.8 acres. Commissioner Schinderle said it is approximately 600 feet between Walgreens and the back line of the property. He asked if there are going to be other buildi ngs, a strip mall along the back of this property. Joseph Bodenski said this is a phase project with Walgreens being the vocal point. He said they have proposals out. He said they envision many uses in this area with retail being off the Walgreens. He said you would be possibly looking at day care, food users all along 135 th and Rt. 30. He said there is a back parcel that may be possibly medical or some other use. Commissioner Schinderle asked if it was basically going to be along the north and eas t perimeter. Joseph Bodenski said mostly. He said they are looking at that is approximately 4 acres that would be ideal for a medical user. Commissioner Schinderle said he was thinking that the pond would be blocked from the homes. Joseph Bodenski said it is not going to be wet all that often. Howard Hamilton said he was told wrong then. He looked at the map and said it shows it as wet. Mike Kostal asked if they were going to develop the detention area and grade all the land before Walgreens goes in. Joseph Bodenski said they would be done simultaneously.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 26 Chairman Sobkoviak said it looks like we need to fence this detention area. He said we will need the visual buffer across the west property line and the south property line. Commissioner Kachel said in Oakbrook they will put a wet pond to the front of the area and if it has water in it, you aerate it. He said it is a look and doesn’t affect the homeowners whatsoever. He asked if there was any way that could be worked out that it would be visib le from 30. Mike Kostal said if a wet pond is required if they could make it something more than just a rectangular box that has some gravel sitting around it. He said that is what they would want almost like a park. Commissioner Kachel said you want a look. Chairman Sobkoviak said that is not a fence and your kids. He said the concern has already been voiced that children will. Mike Kostal said true but we do not want a chain link fence wrapping around this pond. Joseph Bodenski said if the fence ordinance stated privacy fence, that is something they are willing to work with. Howard Hamilton said there is really nothing to stop them. Commissioner Kachel said water in front is a draw. Joseph Bodenski said they are retail developers and they deal with more of the design. He said the neighborhoods are there, that is why Walgreens is looking at the retail. He said that all needs to be on the main arterial. He said the alternative of moving it forward is to but the building in the back and then y ou have buildings in your back. Commissioner Kachel asked what could be done to make the pond look good. Chairman Sobkoviak said making it look good will not stop kids from going in it. Mike Kostal said he would rather have the pond than have the buil dings right outside his back yard. He would like something that will look decent. He said he already has a fence in his yard but he wants something that will look decent and still be safe. Chairman Sobkoviak said a normal buffer across the back would be something that provides a year round 75% visual screen. He said theoretically you would not be seeing this. Commissioner Schinderle agreed. Chairman Sobkoviak said some people would rather have a fence and some would rather have a row of spruce trees o r something. Mike Kostal asked how close would they put them together.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 27 Chairman Sobkoviak said we require 75% visual screen from day one and it gets better after that. Commissioner Kachel said another subdivision we put trees on the opposite side and le ft the open area for the pond. He asked if one side would be a visual. Joseph Bodenski said if they get a medical user in the back that may be an amenity. Commissioner Kachel said if you put more screening and trees on the other side. Chairman Sobkovia k said you have to decide what your object is, whether you want to keep kids out, then that is one solution or if you are trying to make something look good, that is another solution. He said one possible solution is to run a fence on two sides of the per imeter of the property and buffer the fence with foliage. He said they have to conform to our ordinances as to height. A lady in the audience was concerned with the safety of the children with the pond and also the parking lot. Commissioner Schinderle said this is 600 feet to the back of Walgreens. Mike Kostal said he did not have a problem with the pond. He said he wanted clarification. He is concerned with out it will look out his back yard, the lighting, the buffering, the pond is going to be th ere with both a buffer and a fence ideally. Chairman Sobkoviak said right now we are looking at a fence that would simply go down the west and south perimeters of the property. Commissioner Kachel said up north there is one that has a full fence that g ives safety to the children, also keeps the kids from running back and forth with cars also because it is not just the pond. He said they put in pine, very mature pine in there spaced very close together. He said in a few years, it will filter the light and will look nice from the back of the house. He feels they need the security of a fence right now with mature pines in the buffer to grow up to give a look. He said as far as the pond itself, that is going to have to be worked out with any fencing requ irements. Commissioner Manning asked how much fencing. Chairman Sobkoviak said he is offering the entire west and south perimeter. Commissioner Kachel said he agreed with that. Joseph Bodenski asked for clarification because if they go lot line to l ot line the sidewalks will run into our fence. Chairman Sobkoviak asked how far they would back it up.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 28 Joseph Bodenski said he agrees the are safety issues and they have to work with everybody on these issues. He said they do not want any problems on th eir property. He said his questions is when you do that fence depending on the height of the fence, you are going to lose when people get around that fence, you are going to lose total track of those children. Chairman Sobkoviak said we are going to re quire you to put foliage, a 75% visual screen anyway. Mike Kostal said safety and visual is the concern of the subdivision, not just the pond, you are going to have retail and the ponds. Chairman Sobkoviak said in the past we have required simply foliage , simply a fence and in other cases we have required both. Joseph Bodenski said they are willing to work with Staff on the pond. Commissioner Kachel suggested looking at the one at Caton Farm and Rt. 59, it looks nice now. Commissioner Manning said if we build a fence like Jim is proposing here, are we closing off any bike paths. Planner Carroll said we will not, the bike path will be on the south side of 135 th and north side of this project. Chairman Sobkoviak said with his colleagues’ permission he would add a fourth stipulation to the site plan requiring a fence along the western and southern perimeters along with the usual 75% visual barrier of foliage. Cathy Zimmerman said along with the fence can we as homeowners request that it be 6 foot or taller. She also asked if it could be chain link. Chairman Sobkoviak said we have an ordinance. Planner Carroll said no shorter than 6 feet. He said no chain link. Juan Carlos Hernandez asked if they had addressed the sign so there is not a big red si gn. Chairman Sobkoviak said we have not gotten to that yet. He said there is an ordinance on that. Amy Smith asked if it was going to be a 24 -hour Walgreens. Joseph Bodenski said they are not in their operations. Commissioner Kachel said a lot of Walg reens have 24 hour only as far as the drive -thru. A lady asked about the fence and if it would be brick.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 29 Commissioner Kachel said to follow through with this if you have a concern. Chairman Sobkoviak said Staff needs to review trash enclosures before th is goes to the Village Board. He said we have an ordinance for that. Joseph Bodenski he said Walgreens has their trash compacted. Chairman Sobkoviak said a preliminary lighting plan needs to be submitted to Staff. He said we are very strict on lights. He said we will not issue a variance on this. He asked how they feel about Staff’s recommendation about the sign. Joseph Bodenski said Walgreens requested they go in for the typical sign. He said we will have to comply with the sign ordinance. Commiss ioner Kachel said it is not like it is a big shopping mall. He said we are real strict on this. He said the building itself it a sign and a statement. Chairman Sobkoviak said let’s go on to the access. He asked if he needed to point out the corner of Caton Farm Road and Rt. 59. He asked if we wanted to create the same monster in our back yard. Howard Hamilton discussed the problem with Caton Farm Road and Rt. 59 intersection. Chairman Sobkoviak asked the distance from the corner to the proposed ac cess. Commissioner Kachel asked how it worked out with the school across the street. Joseph Bodenski said their access is actually to the east. He said their access is about 100 feet. He said ours is 245 feet west of the intersection. Chairman Sobkovi ak asked if we could move that further west without destroying the value of the property. Howard Hamilton said they are working with them right now. He said our goal is typically 400 to 450 feet. Chairman Sobkoviak asked the distance from the corner to the entrance behind McDonalds. Howard Hamilton said he thought it was about 250. Several Commissioners indicated that did not seem to be a problem. Howard Hamilton said they do not have the traffic there. He indicated the school has a real problem. He said today you can build your development today but I can almost guarantee the Village is going to come back and take your parking for 135 th .
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 30 Chairman Sobkoviak asked if we could leave this issue of the access road with the engineer. He said if it p leases Howard, it will please me. Commissioners agreed. Howard Hamilton said the concern we have is left turners wanting to turn into the Walgreens. He said the problem we have, let’s just say everybody from Walkers Grove and Natures Crossing has gone t o pick up their kid and they have been asked to pull up on the right side of the street, they have blocked off that entrance. He said then when people want to turn in are backed up to Rt. 30 and that it a real problem. A lady said if they would have ma de the other entrance a right only and it would make it a whole lot easier. Howard Hamilton said when you take the back entrance you are breaking the law. He said it is not so you can get around the track. Mike Kostal asked if they were looking at mak ing Rt. 30 four lanes down by the school. Howard Hamilton said there are currently no plans to improve Rt. 30 any further. He said we are looking at changing Rt. 30, he believed the current intersection designs they have out there is it is 4 lanes at the intersection. He said it is a state highway. He said the Village is trying not to use the taxpayers money to fix it. Chairman Sobkoviak said he had 4 stipulations attached to the site plan review and 2 stipulations attached to the final plat. He said we are being asked to approve a special use permit for a drive thru window, a site plan review and a final plat. He said if there is no additional information, the chair will welcome a motion. Commissioner Manning said you added a fourth stipulation to t he site plan. Chairman Sobkoviak said the fourth stipulation was to require a fence around the western and southern perimeters combined with foliage that guaranteed a 75% visual screen. Commissioner Kachel asked if we said anything on the sign. Chairm an Sobkoviak said we will add a fifth stipulation that we support the planner’s findings for trash enclosure, lighting and signage. Commissioner Manning made a motion to recommend approval of the special use permit for a pharmacy drive -thru, to approve th e site plan review with the 3 stipulations found in planner’s report with the 2 stipulations added by the Plan Commission and approve the final plat with the 2 stipulations found in the planner’s report. Commissioner Kachel seconded the motion. Vote by roll call: AYE: Kachel, Gehrke, Schinderle, Manning and Sobkoviak NAY: None Vote: 5 -0 Motion carried.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 31 Chairman Sobkoviak informed the applicant to keep in touch with Staff for the next hearing date. CASE NO: 852 -010901.FP HERITAGE OAKS Planner Carro ll said this is a request for final plat for Heritage Oaks. He said the Village Board actually approved the annexation agreement and the preliminary plat in August of 2000. He said unit 1 includes basically all the single -family lots, which amounts to 98 total. He said it is basically yellow on this plan. He said for context, 119 th is located to the north of the project, 248 th is to the east of the project, Century Trace is also to the north. He said the Subdivision was approved for 98 single -family de tached and 110 multi -family. He said the multi -family will be final platted at a later date. He said the main issue with the preliminary plat was installation of a fence along the south property line. He said applicant has indicated that fence on the pr eliminary plat has been taken care of. He said as part of the preliminary plat approval, no access easement was recommended along the north property line of Lot 1 and that was so no driveway could access onto Millennium Parkway and that should be included on the final plat. Planner Carroll said he would like to enter into the record a letter from the Park District. He said basically the applicant and the Park District is working on an agreement that calls for the developer to donate park area and he indi cated on the map the area in question. He said he would recommend a fourth stipulation that the Agreement between the Park District and the applicant be finalized. Howard Hamilton said his letter to the Plan Commission says they are fine. Emo Barbieri, Pasquinelli representative, said he had no problems with Staff’s reports. He said the Park District is present and we are close to finalizing our agreement. Chairman Sobkoviak said he did not see any problems. Commissioner Manning asked if the Park Dist rict intend for us to do anything. John Vann, Park District, said they are progressing with an agreement. He said they just wanted it ironed out before they get their final plat. Chairman Sobkoviak said we need to say the agreement be made with the Park District before the Village Board can approve this. Emo Barbieri said he would think that as soon as they know I am on the meeting would show up. He said that would not be in their best interest so they would like to get this set up. John Vann said the y have been caught before when final plats have gone through with the agreement in place. He said we try to keep a policy. Chairman Sobkoviak said that would stipulation number 4 that an agreement with the Park District shall be made before this is appro ved by the Village Board. Commissioner Manning made a motion to recommend approval of the final plat for Heritage Oaks Unit 1 subject to the 3 stipulations included in the Staff report and the additional stipulation added at this meeting.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MI NUTES February 6, 2001 Page 32 Seconded by Com missioner Kachel. Vote by roll call: AYE: Kachel; Gehrke; Schinderle; Manning; Sobkoviak NAY: None Vote 5 -0 Motion carried. Chairman Sobkoviak informed the applicant to keep in touch with Staff for the next meeting. CASE NO: 846 -12000.FP ARBOR OF PLAIN FIELD UNIT 3 Planner Garrigan stated the applicant requested this case be stricken from the agenda for tonight. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they wanted it rescheduled to a different time. Planner Garrigan said they did not expect a certain date. Plann er Carroll said we anticipate a future date, however, the applicant wanted to get a couple things ironed out. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they needed a motion. Answer was no. He said case no. 846 -12000.FP has been removed from consideration at the appli cant’s request and will be taken up at a later time. Commissioner Kachel asked if we could get aerial view as a requirement. Howard Hamilton said the Village has aerial photos of the entire area that we can make available to all developers. Some discu ssion was held as to the scheduled special meeting February 7, 2001 at 7:00 p.m. at the High School auditorium for Grande Prairie. Chairman Sobkoviak adjourned the meeting. Meeting Adjourned: 11:00 p.m. Merrilee Eighner