HomeMy Public PortalAbout2001-04-10 PC minutesMINUTES PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISISON DATE: April 10, 2001 AT: Village Meeting Hall Chairman Sobkoviak called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. and led the pledge to the flag. Roll Call: PRESENT: Commissioners Kachel, Gehrke, Seggebruch, Anderson a nd Sobkoviak School and Fire Districts ABSENT: Commissioners Manning, Schinderle Park and Library Districts Chairman Sobkoviak indicated to the Commissioners that the blue packet contained the transcript from the previous special meeting. He indicated this was a continued hearing for this parcel. Case No: 839 -110700.AA/Z/SU GRANDE PARK Planner Carroll said this is a continuation of the last meeting on March 27 th . He said Staff has given you a number of reports. He said in the latest one there are some issues from staff and Teska’s reports. He said we need some clear direction on those issues. Chairman Sobkoviak said Jodie Siu from Teska Associates, Inc. was present. He asked Howard if he had any comments on the questions and concerns that were brought forward at our last hearing. Howard Hamilton, Village Engineer, said the concerns that were not fully addressed at the last public meeting were traffic related. He said he and Staff have since met with Kendall County and Oswego Township Highwa y Departments to get their input on the project. He said the one item that has come up to discuss with the applicant is does it need further study at the intersection of Stewart and Plainfield roads. He said other than that Kendall County is still lookin g seriously at the project. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if Mr. Zwemke was in receipt of the report from KLOA. Mr. Zwemke stated yes. He said they have Mr. Tim Dorin with them tonight to answer any questions. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they were essenti ally in agreement with this and in agreement with their recommendations. Howard Hamilton said they are looking for more feedback on that intersection. He said they are open but very addressable. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they saw a show stopper th ere. Howard Hamilton said no. Chairman Sobkoviak said we are faced with three questions tonight. He said the first being annexation, is this a logical extension of the Village boundaries? He said the second question is should the parcel be annexed what would be the appropriate zoning? He said thirdly to address the request for special use permit to develop the property under the Planned Unit Development Ordinance. He suggested beginning by talking about the annexation. He asked if any of the
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 2 commissi oners have any questions of the petitioner or Staff regarding the appropriateness of extending our boundaries and annexing a parcel in Kendall County. Commissioner Kachel said he did not have a problem with extending the boundaries by going to this area b ut again his problem is where are we going to move the traffic in that area. He said it is one thing to have an extension of our boundaries but it is another to be able to move around in it. He said he was not comfortable with where we are going to move the people in that area. He said there are roadways that have not been approved. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if Howard felt that the report adequately addresses traffic management for this area. Howard Hamilton said the report is adequate. He said again we feel it needs a little bit more work on intersections. He said this project comes in as a logical extension of our transportation plan, which has collectors coming in. He said the only revision we have made to that with this application is de -emphasiz e 135 th Street and that is mainly because of the school and intersection problems we have on 135 th and 30. He said other than that everything you see here is consistent with the things the Village has planned for. Commissioner Kachel said when you de -e mphasize 135 th Street – it is one area that will take you right straight through to 55 where Bolingbrook is already talking about putting in an interchange at 126 which brings you close to it. He asked why would you de -emphasize something like that when i t is a collector street. He said granted there is a school there, there is a school at Rt. 30, there are schools all around here. He said he was not trying to take anything from the school aspect of it, he is talking about moving traffic from point A to point B and point B could be Chicago, or to the northern communities in that area and if you de -emphasize 135 th that is one of the main ones we are talking about. He said we are putting an exchange at Rt. 30 and 135 th . He said the newspaper has down here that the Village is taking a look at 135 th street closer to I -55 is making it slower movement of traffic over there. He said why have bridges that have been put in that area, commercial properties and I feel bad for the people that are on 135 th Street, b ut when I moved here there was one blinking light in town. He said when you talk about people and movement; you have to be able to move them the easiest way possible. He said if you take it to the north, where are you going to take it across and bring i n 55. He said there were 3 things brought up in the newspaper last week, one was Bolingbrook with 126, also Caton Farm Road which will help some and relieve some traffic and on a short term basis could help a subdivision like this. He said when you talk about 135 th Street; it is going to stop at a point there. He said he has a problem with how you are going to move everybody out of there. He said with a town the size of Plainfield and you can see what we have right now with one bridge closed and with th e roadway upset over here as far as with traffic. He said there is no way to move. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if that meant he could not support the annexation due to your concerns regarding traffic. Commissioner Kachel said he would like to know right no w we are saying yes we are going to have interchanges at Rt. 30 at 135 th . He said he would like to know what our efforts are going to be as far as how we are going to move traffic and move it to 55 and north. He said he did not have a problem with the an nexation of the property, he thought it is logical in that aspect. He said if you are going to put something in this large, then we need to look at where we are going to move the traffic right now. He said there are too many people coming into that subdi vision. He said if you talk to the township commissioner most of the roadways out in that area do not have bases out in that area to take a lot of heavy traffic. He asked if he was correct in that.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 3 Art Zwemke said that is correct. Commissioner Kachel sa id when you build something like this, you have concrete trucks, huge trucks that are going to be going back and forth, you are going to have people use those roads, you know how Fraser Road was over here with the build out as far as a typical road that di d not have a volume of traffic once we started taking heavy construction, it tore it completely up. He said you do not have any roads out there with good solid bases other than Rt. 30. Howard Hamilton said that was one of the things we did work out wit h the Kendall County Highway Department is to have a transportation plan for construction plan of using roads that can hold up to the construction traffic. Commissioner Kachel said what about Will County. Howard Hamilton said the same thing. He said the majority of streets in Will County are our streets. Commissioner Kachel said it is a large area and this is a concern of his, he wants people to be able to move around. He said in the transportation plan they said it would be worked out and it has not b een worked out. He said we have had too much growth and now we are talking about doubling it and that whole sector was a problem to begin with in our last comprehensive plan. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if the petitioner would care to address that problem. Art Zwemke said they designed this with a long -term regional transportation plan in mind and that is mainly with the Wikaduke Trail. He said this is the right of way and they have set aside 150 feet of that road for future development and they believe ev entually that road will be built. He said they respected the details of it by not putting in a lot of commercial in this particular area because the Wikaduke study has a large commercial up at 119 th Street and a large commercial down at 126. He said the orientation today is kind of heading east and Rt. 59 but they are looking at this as a major thoroughfare eventually that will eventually service major up to the commercial to the north and south. Commissioner Kachel said his question is it 20 years aw ay? Art Zwemke said he did not know if it was 20 years away. Commissioner Kachel said as far as completion not starting. He said look at 355 – how long that has been setting there. He said it something is going to happen in 10 years, then he has no p roblem but if it is 20 years. He said you are doing a good job with what you have here but it is a start. Art Zwemke said it is a start, it is assembling the pieces of the puzzle. He said if you annex this and do not require us to set aside the 150 feet , then that opportunity is lost and you will have to jog. He said it is a start, there is no guarantee it will get done. He said we took an inventory of projects that are underway or scheduled and he handed out a handout of north/south streets and the s econd is east/west streets. Tim Doron, principle from KLORA, said one of the first things they did when they put the study together was forecast 20 years out, 10 years out, as far as population and employment forecasts. He said they used NIPC’s (Northeas tern Illinois Plan Commission which is the regional
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 4 commission that forecasts land uses and population, household data regarding employment data etc.)forecasts for a base for their study to get some concept of how people would travel home to work. He said they took a look at the some of the natural employment centers such as Aurora, Naperville, Joliet and then stepped back and said people are going there and home and to work and if people were going there how would they travel and what were the natural tra vel patterns. He said the second thing they did was to figure what are some of the regional traffic improvements that are going beyond our doors so that people could move up and down north and south and get to those employment centers. He said they know those are not the only trips on the roadways and the world is changing, school trips, midday trips. He said they analyzed trips that are during peak hours because if you can design for that then you can design for the midday also. He presented an exhibit and explained it. He indicated the blue lines represent the improvements that were going to be part and parcel or at least proposed by Grande Park and that would be including the dedication of right -of -way and at least an initial buildout of what we call the Wikaduke Trail or Stewart Road all the way between Plainfield Road and our northern borders at 127 th Street. He said that is on site or at least adjacent to our site. He indicated the red dots are showing proposed traffic signals at 127 th , 135 th an d an intermediate signal basically for pedestrian crossing in between the 135 th and 127 th . He said they are proposing to improve Heggs north and south adjacent to and even extending beyond our property borders down to connect with 135 th Street and of cour se 135 th Street all the way east all the way over to Nature’s Crossing Subdivision. He said that goes well beyond the Grande Park borders. He said we took improvements from other subdivisions and looked at the Sohol and the Tuttle Farms and the potential improvements at that point … over connecting with US 30. He said as we move out away from the site and look at some regional improvements and basically in their estimation of employment trends and population forecasts north south is going to be a big mov ement. He said you have to get to north south like US 30 and 59 or if the Wikaduke is finished and he believes it will be because the way this region is growing so much. He said and just like they are improving the Wikaduke as other developments come in not only in Plainfield but in other neighboring communities and that is the way the Wikaduke will eventually be piece mealed and built to move traffic north and south. He said in advance of that the natural arterials are US 30 and 59. He indicated IDOT i s improving 59 all the way down to Illinois 126. He said they are proposing traffic signals at the major intersections of 127 th and 135 th and there is an existing signal at 143 rd and Illinois 59. He said on US 30 there is an existing signal at 143 rd and 135 th . He said they are proposing a traffic signal at US 30 and 127 th . He said they will pay their pro rata share. He said when you have a traffic signal they propose right turn lanes on north south and left four turn lanes on all four approaches. He said originally they proposed continuing 135 th to join with Plainfield creating a new intersection and that is what they analyzed. He said the Village of Plainfield requested a vacation of that portion of the project so that intersection became not wort hwhile to analyze. Commissioner Kachel said he did not have a problem with what you are doing. He said he is looking at everything this side. He said in the last 10 years from 55 back and forth to Chicago. He said you use to be able to go from Naperv ille to Chicago right straight up. He said most people if they can right now to go north there will go all the way out that way, go around to get up into Carol Stream and go north that way. He said it is an hour traffic that used to be a 15 -minute traffi c. He said even with 59 being improved all the way down that will help alleviate the traffic now. He said it is not like an I -88 where we have a thoroughfare going through or I -55 or Wikaduke. He said if that was there, he would not have any problem at all with this subdivision. He said when he looks at everything that has been developed over the last 10 years, traffic and traffic movement, everything right now is just a bandaid being put on to take care of problems we already have. He said he would li ke to see some commitment from the Village as far as where it is going to be tied in from that point to 55 and movements there along with Will County along
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 5 with the Township. He said the roads need to be sound enough to move heavy traffic and pedestrian t raffic. He said the trucks will be tearing up the road like Van Dyke Road. He said those things will happen when you start a large development like this. He said it is not negative to what you have there, you are doing what you should be doing into it. He said he would be more comfortable with it if he knew what we were doing as a Village. He said he was all in favor of not building schools on busy thoroughfares but the fact of the matter is we usually try to take traffic the easiest way possible rathe r than up and around. Tim Doron said when he first came into the study 135 th he thought it was a great way to … 55 but the Village at its choice wanted to de -emphasize 135 th Street. He said you could use it all the way through and then use the frontage r oad up through the industrial park and to Weber Road. He said now they are doing traffic calming east of 59 to try to slow down traffic in through there. He said at 127 th the bridge is being re -built but that is also an alternative to take you over to th e industrial park. Commissioner Kachel said it is an essential roadway, there are nice homes over there and they have been built up but there have been nice homes built in a lot of places and it is a logical east west, 143 rd was supposedly done. He said we do not have that many roads that go across down in this area. He said we are hurting badly for it and to de -emphasize a road because of traffic when it can take you right to a major intersection that another community is proposing, it just doesn’t mak e sense. Tim Doron said from a traffic engineering standpoint when you do master developments, master planning like this you can look at those macro issues like that and do a little bit more than if it was ten 200 home subdivisions. He said master planni ng leaves open space and from a transportation respective you can step back and say this is going to impact this, what is it going to do off site. He said if you do little subdivisions at a time, you do not get that privilege to look at it like that. He said they are taking it a step further and say regionally what can the Village do to look at how you are going to tie all this stuff together in 20 years because it is not going to be just us, it will be other builders too. Art Zwemke said he had one ot her point to make regarding the traffic and it was related to an article that appeared in the Herald News. He said this is apparently some build Illinois money or Illinois first money, $8 million which has been earmarked for the widening of 55 from I -80 t o Naperville Road. He read a grout of those communities and affected private companies, spurred by Plainfield Village Administrator Terry Burghard, formed a committed last fall to begin the process of getting state and local officials interested in wideni ng I -55 to at least three lanes in each direction on that 15 mile stretch. He said it is not going to happen tomorrow but from this analysis of future improvements and traffic signals I -55, setting aside land for the Wikaduke but it is a start for region al transportation plan. He said it is not the middle and not the end but it is a good start. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if any other commissioners would like to raise an issue. Commissioner Seggebruch said he would like an update on water/sewer and bounda ry agreement issues in this area. Planner Carroll said as far as boundary agreements referring to Oswego, we are kind of going back and forth right now. He said there is no boundary agreement with Oswego yet. He said as far as our FPA, April 5 th NIPC re commended approval of our FPA to the IEPA.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 6 Chairman Sobkoviak said there is a report on various concerns that were raised in the public input of our portion of public hearings. He said this report addresses the questions and concerns that were brought up . He asked Howard if all the issues regarding drainage and stormwater management been addressed at this point. He said it is premature because engineering has not been done on this site yet. Howard Hamilton said the preliminary studies are complete. H e said we have asked the applicant to look at those offsite of their project, to look at the Wheatland Plains, as there have been complaints at how their ditches drain there. He said that is not unlike we did with the Howard Street ditch in Arbor Place to help solve some Township problems. He said off site sewer, this does require the same sewer improvements that are necessary for the Tuttle Farm, Sohol property, Prairie Ponds and Chaplin. He said the high pressure water needs to be brought up for Tuttle , Sohol, Prairie Ponds and that can be extended to Grande Park and what Grande Park does for us is to push back the other way. Commissioner Kachel asked if we would be working with the Township to be proactive rather than starting a development and comi ng in later because we are so flat. Howard Hamilton said it was a county subdivision and it was so flat, anything we can do to make it better, we are going to try. He said if they have some offsite improvements, generally that is not always asked for of a developer. Commissioner Gehrke said in regards to that, she had some calls from some people in Wheatland Plains are afraid the discharge will take their wells down. Howard Hamilton said at the last hearing at the school, he had a big 6 -foot poster. He said they researched, the average well site in Wheatland Plains is about 150 feet and their water table is around 50 feet, the well that will be drilled on here will be about 1500 feet deep and their water table will be 700 feet deep. He said between the shallow wells and the deep well are two layers of shale that allows water to move vertically not up and down so essentially the water being tapped by the Village will be complete isolated from those individual homes. He said one of the biggest risks we h ave whenever you have a subdivision in next to an older one is people’s wells go dry. He said why, because they are 25 years old. He said his well pump is 25 years old and he sweats every day. He said when his well goes dry, it is not because of the sub divisions around me, and it is because my pump finally gave out. Commissioner Gehrke said they were concerned they would loose water. Howard Hamilton said we are drawing from different structures. Commissioner Kachel said regarding the radon, with the se new wells that go in like this, if that issue is not resolved will these be equipped to take care of that. Howard Hamilton said yes, the budgets they have always put together on this have been a … treatment being put in place. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if they would care to address concerns regarding drainage and fresh water. Art Zwemke said they do know one low spot on the south end of Wheatland Plain there will be a survey done of all the field tile to be sure we know where the water is flowing and t hat sort of
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 7 thing we will expand in that sort of … to be sure we are not complicating people’s lives here in Wheatland Plains. He presented a slide that showed how the water was working its way so we already know where the ridge line is and we will take d ue care to be sure that nobody’s yards get flooded and probably end up curing some problems that already exist. He said their budget for the water system is about $6.5 million. He said it includes a storage tank of about 1,250,000 gallons, a deep well, a treatment facility and all the piping that is necessary not only to service Grande Park but will also end up connecting with the line Howard referred to coming from basically Van Dyke Road and 127 th , visualize the water tank at 119 th and Van Dyke and the line that comes down Van Dyke Road heads west on 127 th , our system will ultimately connect with that system and will also connect with the existing line that services the developments on 135 th Street. He said you are talking about a big looping system. H e said the well proposed on their property, and they have not decided if the well site is on Prairie Ponds or Sohol. Howard Hamilton said it is the bird in hand, whichever subdivision we have first, we want the well there. He said we need water today. A rt Zwemke said wherever that well is located, the Village is putting up the dollars for that well. He said they are putting up all the dollars for this well and storage tank on our site. He said there is a need ultimately for two wells and a storage tank. Chairman Sobkoviak asked the Fire Department if they saw any problem in obtaining necessary water to fight a fire in that area. Jon Stratton said as long as they have a loop system like that it is better for us, better water pressure. He said we have l ower pressure than we like in Nature’s Crossing and Walkers Grove. He said by bringing the high pressure water in to back feed. He said they will not see a big difference in the day to day pressure but if there is a fire it will allow us to open two valv es and will have good flow to the hydrants. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if the Plainfield Fire District recognized any problems associated with that portion of the development that is within the Plainfield Fire Protection District. Jon Stratton said their board was meeting tonight talking about it. He said he would take everything from here back over there. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if there was any arrangement or agreement made with the Oswego Fire Protection District. Jon Stratton said as of right now no. He said that is one of the questions we did ask is who is going to be protected. Chairman Sobkoviak said the Plan Commission is in receipt of a letter from the Oswego Fire Protection District. Jon Stratton said no. Chairman Sobkoviak gave him his copy. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if the Commissioners had any comments or concerns regarding the drainage or the availability of fresh water service or removal of sewage. Commissioner Seggebruch said based on looking at the slide, based on what was said , we know that when Wheatland Plains was built it was relatively flat, there wasn’t a concern with drainage
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 8 because it was surrounded by farmland, was there a consideration to kind of invert some of your layouts and put the ponds adjacent to them instead o f putting them between your neighborhoods and in essence isolating them from instead of putting your single family right up against them. John Martin, Jen Land, said as that slide shows and we looked back and forth between. He explained they have a water shed coming through this location. He explained the natural swale and where it comes through. He explained that was the low spot and that was where they need to have the lake. He said they are actually putting the detention basins where they need to be. He said we need to get as much of that water towards the ultimate outfall. Commissioner Kachel asked what would happen if you put an overlay of all the field tile, how they drain and where they drain to. He asked what that would show. Art Zwemke said they have not completed the field tile study yet. He said that is part of the next phase when we get into final engineering. Commissioner Kachel said when you have water runoff, water seeping in right now. Chairman Sobkoviak said within Grande Park it w ould not make any difference because they are going to engineer the water drainage. He said the only problems would involve cutting a tile that led off site. Commissioner Kachel said that is a big piece of property and there is bound to be lots of field tiles and to reroute them so they do not go through somebody’s basement when you have a house across the street. Art Zwemke said generally speaking all the field tile that is on the property is gone when we develop it. He said we will be picking up where ver there is tile offsite. He said the systems they are talking about are efficient systems as well as aesthetically pleasing ones. He said where you see blue those will be ponds and lakes to detain the water that does not discharge off the property at a rate greater than it discharges now. He said we are required to detain it for that period of time. Commissioner Seggebruch asked if they were running some kind of collection line at the property line to pick up their drainage running onto your sight. Art Zwemke said we will pick those up. Howard Hamilton said they are required by Village Code to handle all on site water. Commissioner Kachel said some of the ditches out there are silted up and do not drain the water. He said from this point over to DuPage, is there anything that can be done for more conveyance. He said the farmers use to keep them clean but now they have not been cleaned for years and years. He said there is stuff growing up in them. He said with this size of a subdivision if that was something that was going to be looked at. Howard Hamilton said they would look at it but generally what you see is per our detention ordinance is we have less water from the site after it is constructed than we did before it was built. He said that is because of the restrictive release rates. Commissioner Kachel said a lot of the subdivisions complain of water.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 9 Howard Hamilton said the one he can think of are mainly where we have farmland abutting. Commissioner Seggebruch asked they to explain the ir general theory of site plan for development of this project. He said he is looking at this and thinking about a couple of developments along the Caton Farm Road corridor. He said there are a bunch of what are called neighborhoods and each one of those has a different price point, different housing type and essentially you have kind of isolated each one with either a park or lake. He said there is a big park in the middle which the theory is that is going to bring everybody together but his impression in driving through some of these other developments is basically sets up a series of not really … but essentially everybody lives in their own social economic strata. He said it is really a different theory from neo -traditional town planning where you hav e a grid and you do not have this kind of separation of isolation. One of the applicants said it is a mixed use development, there are a number of different housing products as well as commercial nodes that we anticipate at the end of the build out that w ill service neighborhood commercial … development. He said primarily they tried to create neighborhood pods that are manageable and to scale in terms, if you look at Walkers Grove and some of the other subdivisions where you have a lot, the scale of these particular neighborhoods are in a 75 – 100 lot sizes in terms. He said we have kept the larger homes up against Wheatland Plains and respecting that transition and those will be the most expensive homes, then we have varying lot sizes of the 10,000 and 1 1,000 and 12,000 square foot lots. He said this is a highly minimized community. He said the central focus obviously is this 150 -acre plus the school site in the central portion of the development. He said this is what we are calling Grande Boulevard th at is a no load road, highly minimized with individual identities to each of these neighborhoods so that each individual neighbor had an identity but they have a total identity to the entire project with the central feature. He said all the for sale produ ct feed into that Grande Boulevard system which again there is not a house on that but when we do back homes onto that will have a landscape easement so that basically when you drive through you get the feeling and we are providing little boulevard entranc es at each one of these neighborhood locations. He said that is creating not really a boulevard but sections of boulevard parkway system as you drive through this development going in and out of your homes each day. He said there are at least 2 ways in a nd out. He said the primary system the sections that are in between the entrances are basically a two -lane road. Commissioner Kachel said when you get people wanting to turn. One of the applicants said to keep in mind on the Grande Park Boulevard system that they have access to 135 th at two other locations, access to Stewart at another location and we also have the means from this end of the development to get through these neighborhoods out to Heggs. He said there are lots of options. He said the re are back door ways to get out of the development and it is not like everyone is coming out at that point. One of the applicants said they looked at it as front door. He said if I am going to work or school or wherever, I am not going to be on the boul evard chances are I am going to go north, east, south so I am going to try to get out to 135 th or up to 127 th or out to Heggs Road or out to Stewart Road due north. He said we are planning on a two -lane road with no parking allowed because the parking we are looking to be within the circle of the park. One of the applicants said basically what Joe is trying to show us is in this location, try to visualize that lake; this is the Grande Park Boulevard section. He said as we come to each one of
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 10 these neighb orhood entry points we have provided for a boulevard section so that basically it is a traffic -calming device instead of stop sign. He said we are looking at here is coming into it where we have a boulevard into the neighborhood this splits off into neigh borhood one and neighborhood two. He said as you can see it is highly minimized entrance where they have signage, landscaping to indicate this will be the groves neighborhood of Grande Park or the Chestnut neighborhood of Grande Park and as you come into each one of these there will be signage indicating each one of those. He explained these areas are designed to slow the traffic down as they are going along this Grande Park Boulevard as they come to each one of these entrances. He said that will also hap pen as you come across the school entrances. Commissioner Kachel asked if there will be stop signs. One of the petitioners said potentially there may be one at the main entrance to the school. He explained where there would possibly be stop signs. Co mmissioner Kachel said it is nice sometimes to have free easy access. Chairman Sobkoviak said these are questions that will be more appropriately asked when the plat or engineering portion. Commissioner Kachel said sometimes when you see a stop sign one place but never a stop sign anywhere along the way. He said he would like them to take a look at it. Chairman Sobkoviak said the original question was is this an appropriate and logical extension of the village limits. He asked if any of the Commissione rs would like to comment on the appropriateness of this parcel for annexation of whether or not this is a logical extension for the village boundaries. Commissioner Seggebruch asked if we are looking at something with this kind of density at this point he felt we need to be given an understanding of how much farther north and west the boundary might be and how much room there might be to lower the density as it goes out to the edges. Planner Carroll said if he was to guess this would be pretty much our bo rder. He said as far as the Plan Commission addressing this area the land use map does not address this area. He said the Comprehensive Plan does and it calls for residential and commercial extended into this area into Kendall County. He said our planni ng area goes out 1.5 miles from our boundary so it is within our planning area as well. Commissioner Seggebruch said our agreement with Yorkville goes west of here. Planner Carroll said this would be our northwest. He said if we go out to Grove Road som eday, that is a long way out there. He said we are talking maybe about a quarter or half mile either way but not much further from what he understands. Howard Hamilton said we are currently working on a boundary agreement with Fox Metro Water District an d that is immediately west of this project. He said it cuts in to the north too. He said that doesn’t preclude us from actually having incorporated subdivisions that are treated by Fox Metro in the future but it is an indication of what the long -range pl an is.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 11 Commissioner Kachel asked – logical extension of our boundaries, in fact the Village itself will be doubling its size, the Village is going to be able to maintain all that plus all the new subdivisions that are coming in around as well taking care of it properly too. Chairman Sobkoviak said the Village has retained Teska and Associates to assist us in not only the Comprehensive Plan but also in this project. He asked if Jodie had any input. Jodie Siu, Teska and Associates, said the Comprehensive Plan process is underway and they have as part of their consulting team Parsons Group who is a transportation consultant and they will be looking very carefully at these issues. She said they have not got in depth of these issues as of yet. She said in g eneral they are supportive of this project. She said this is a rare opportunity that the Village has to look a large piece of property planned on a comprehensive scale and you are getting the advantages of the open space, the open space network, the schoo l sites and so on. She said with that in mind, generally we are supportive of it. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if there was additional discussion of the appropriateness of annexing this parcel. He asked the question of zoning. He said the petitioner had i ndicated a mixture of zoning, single family, multi -family, commercial – perhaps you would like to review that for us. Art Zwemke said there are15 separate neighborhoods, 8 of them are single family, 3 townhome developments, 2 duplex neighborhoods, 2 comme rcial nodes that are neighborhood commercial not regional commercial, and 1 area for rental apartments. He said it is designed for 300 units, walk ups no taller than 3 stories, they generally have a clubhouse and a pool, all sorts of amenities, typically a complex like this for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom rents for $1200 a month. He said they are not designed for low income or subsidy. He explained the area south of 135 th Street and east of Stewart Road is designated to be an active adult community. He said there will be a deed restriction that will limit the people to 55 and older and no school age children. He said there are three components in here, duplexes, townhomes and condominiums. He said this is a merging market and we do not know exactly what the y will look like. He said maybe the condos are in the center and you have a community center in the middle and maybe the townhomes come out to the road and the duplexes here. He said we do not know yet, but we are agreeing within our annexation agreement that these would be age restrictive. He said generally speaking that is an affluent buyer; they patronize the shops and restaurants locally. He said they cannot say much more about the luxury and beauty of working on a property this size because instea d of eleven 80 acre farms that we break off 5 or 6 or 8 acres of park land on an individual basis, we have been able to consolidate this whole park area as well as 5 neighborhood parks. He said when you do the calculation based on the Village’s ordinance, we have 168 acres that is high and dry. He said the population projection here is not doubling the community, it is 5844, which is about half of what is here and when you do the mathematics on that it requires them to donate 32 acres to meet your require ments under the ordinance. He said they have 168 acres. He said the forecasted population is 5844 divide by 1000 multiply times 5.5 acres is 32. He said they are donating 168 acres that is excess of 136 acres, your land cash per acre is $64,000 and some change so this is about $8.7 million equivalent. He said these do not come along very often. Commissioner Kachel asked with the green space area, will that be developed early on or will that be in stages. He said there are no trees out there and if t he trees and plantings can be taken care of early on, within 10 to 15 years you will see a community out there rather than just a big green space. Art Zwemke said we will have plenty of everything. He said what will be attached to the annexation agreemen t will be a letter of understanding for the Oswego Land Park District, the
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 12 letter has been drafted and is in with the Director at this point in time. He said it says in there that we have 168 acres and the goal is we will produce in coordination with the Village a development agreement that will be chapter and verse of how the phases will come in. He said just like this is a preliminary approval, we will come back and for example our initial plans are to approve neighborhoods number 1, 2, and 3 and probab ly have a good part of this road in here which will mean we will want to do a big part of the park. He said the only down side at this time is there is no need for a school on site right now. He said that is probably 4 or 5 years away. He said it may be just a grassy field that is seeded while other amenities may pop up around that. He said we have to work out these details. Chairman Sobkoviak asked Jodie if she would have any comment on the mixture of zoning and land uses. Jodie Siu, Teska and Ass ociates, said they are supportive of the mix of uses. She said this is a nice project that will bring in a good mix of people. She said they were comfortable with the layout of the neighborhood, the locations, the way they have higher density uses around Stewart Road and it falls away from there. She said their only concern perhaps is with the lots that are going to be right on the borders of the properties and we suggested in the past larger lot sizes just for those few lots on the edges, or a landscape buffer might be appropriate. She said these are issues you can deal with when the plats come in for each of those neighborhoods. Chairman Sobkoviak said he received a couple of phone calls last week from concerned neighbors. He said it is not entirel y appropriate to address buffering at this point. He said as a development proceeds this is the first step where we annex the property and determine what the zoning is going to be. He said when the property is ultimately developed, it will be developed i n sections and each section will be presented as a preliminary plat and a final plat. He said when the preliminary plats are submitted, this is where the developer shows the lot sizes, the grading, elevations, where the water is going, utility easements an d this kind of stuff. He said at that point we will ask for buffering around the perimeters. He said at that point the adjacent homeowners would be invited to attend the meetings and voice their preferences because the buffering can take many forms. He said it can be all foliage, it can be fence, it can be a lot of different things. He said some people do not want a fence, some people do not want bushes they have to trim. He said generally the developers are generous enough to go along with whatever th e adjacent owners are desiring. Art Zwemke said they are mindful and respectful of our neighbors. He said this is 131 st Street, 129 th Street, we have no plans of stubbing those streets into Grande Park. He said you will see the plat for this, we want to give access to these residents to get into the Park system and Trail system. He said we want to be a good neighbor. Chairman Sobkoviak said one of the concerned citizens that called him was displaying some anxiety about being next to some apartments. H e said he was not sure which group of apartments they were going to be next to. Art Zwemke said we have only 1 set of apartments. Chairman Sobkoviak said the concerns of buffering will be addressed at preliminary plat. He said they need a more homogenou s community and you do not think it is desirable to have various economical strata being separated, however, every time a subdivision comes in, regardless of size, the adjacent neighbors always clamor for buffering. He said he finds it silly in some cases buffering one back yard against another back yard. He said however many times this is the case.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 13 He said for whatever reason it occurs and actually the buffering here within Grande Park appears to more of a natural separation rather than a foreign double row of trees. Commissioner Seggebruch said we are being told this development may end up being the northwest corner of the Village and if we are trying to bring our density down as we reach the edge. He said he could see where they could rearrange 3 pa rts of this plan and solve a couple problems. He said if you took the 80 acres in Will County and made that your active adult area, that would solve the problem with the Plainfield School District and you would not have to swap with Oswego. He said if yo u took your high density at the north end and brought it down where the active adult is then you have concentrated all the high density to that end and take the other single family in the Will County section and it up to 127 th then the entire northwest bor der is the least density as it reaches the edge. He said in the future the Village might have to deal with some higher density development adjacent to the south end. He said right now you have it spread over three different areas and you have an issue wi th two school districts right now. John Phillipchuck, said the Wikaduke study and some of the things Plainfield has talked about, they are trying to get up to 119 th and Wikaduke because they see that as a bigger commercial node. He said it is going to be an intensive use along the Wikaduke. He said the Village Board at the last meeting and Howard made mention of it that they are looking at entering into a intergovernmental agreement with Fox Metro so Plainfield will serve east of the ridge line and Fox M etro would serve west of the ridge line. He said he did not want anybody to get the impression that this is probably going to be the eventual northern border of Plainfield. He showed a board with the existing corporate limits of Oswego and existing corpo rate limits of Plainfield and various properties coming in and are pending with the Village and Grande Park. He said you can see this is the FPA area that the Village is looking at. He said there is a corner that a Trustee asked if we were prevented from annexing that area because it is on the other side of the ridge line and he was told no that it could be still in the Village of Plainfield and be served by Fox Metro. He said some of the utility planning going on takes the corporate limits at least 1 mi le to 1 -1/2 mile north yet of Grande Park and they start to look at some serious intensification uses for commercial north. He said their plan is calm and as the consultants have pointed out, well thought put in relationship to what we envision and he see s this as being more central to future Plainfield and not on the edge. He said it is well within the Comprehensive Plan today for the 80 acres everything else is broad rush. He said he thought the Village has shown its intention of how it wants to plan f or its future out in these areas and you can see where the adjoining municipality is. He thought there was the desire to expand the boundaries further than the edges of this development. Commissioner Anderson asked the applicants to address the commerci al that is on this site and how that will meet the needs of the projected residents. He asked if we are looking for a dry cleaners, gas station, White Hen Pantry sort of things. Art Zwemke responded the commercial up in the corner is probably that typi cal strip center type of place just as you articulated. He said there may be space for a small restaurant and things like that. He said the 15 acre one is slightly larger and could accommodate like a Jewel or a Dominick. He said we are talking about whe n we look at the Wikaduke study up at 119 th Street is a major major intersection. He said if you look at the book it is a big red blob that has all four corners of commercial. Commissioner Anderson said his concern with this is that their immediate nee ds are being served. Art Zwemke said they thought it was more than ample. He said some of our preliminary infrastructure looks in terms of depth and size of underground improvements, the sanitary lines –
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 14 it is anticipated to come in here to the north is being sized and scaled at a depth to be able to go up north of this property. He said this line is not designed to service just Grande Park, it is designed to serve further north. Commissioner Seggebruch said if that little commercial node at the north e nd is – he envisions that to be something like at 135 th and 30 by Harvest Glen. He said he did not see the need to buffer with multi -family up against that little bit of commercial. He said single family could have gone up there. He said that multi -fami ly could come down and keep all the high density at one part of the development rather than splitting it into two areas. He said if you put the active adult in Will County it would solve the school problem. He said there is three issues there. One of th e petitioners said it is not only a buffer issue, but it is also deliberately separated like that so that you would not have all of that. He said we talked about traffic at the beginning part of what this does is by projecting … at this intersection and a t this intersection gives us those areas have direct access to the collector system to divert the traffic immediately. He said the more intense use have the closest access to the arterial system. He said we kind of spread it apart to diffuse so it is not all coming out at one spot. He said we wanted to separate that and as Art mentioned this study indicates those intersections on the Wikaduke study and the major intensity of 119 th Street. Commissioner Kachel asked about 143 rd Street. He said it just ki nd of stops. He said 143 rd goes through, goes up and over and just kind of stops. He said you took it off. He said he was curious why they took it off. He said when it goes across at basically Steiner Road you have it stopping and basically if you look at all the maps that road used to continue through. He wanted to know what was going to happen to it. He said that could bring people into the Village of Plainfield to shop. He said right now we have to come in 135 th Street or Lockport Road to come int o town as far as another cross which is a large sector without any roadway in it. He said 143 rd Street already has a light on it. He said it shows on all the other maps but not on your map. One of the petitioners said when we did Farmington Village the Village did express some interest in getting sufficient right -of -way and they thought that road was going to continue out. Commissioner Kachel said but supposedly the right -of -way was already there. He said there is an existing road that was there that c ame between Oswego and Plainfield years ago. He said it went through and was closed off when they bought the property. He said it should be there. He said he would like to bring it up with the Comprehensive – do you get in on that part of it because it does make a difference how people come into Plainfield, how they are going to shop and any way that we have to come within the Village is to our benefit. He said every time you cut it off and take it to the next one. One of the petitioners said it is an e xisting divisions map and is a database that was pulled up from Rand McNally and that is why it is shown that way. Chairman Sobkoviak asked for additional discussion on the appropriateness of the range of zoning classification that is asked for. He said the third question we are asked is to grant a special use permit to allow for development under the PUD ordinance. Commissioner Kachel said the only discussion he has on that is it is a huge PUD we are talking about. He said when Carillon started out it was going to be adult active community and then later on everything kind of fell through. He said he did not think there was any way to change it once it was granted. He said he would hate to see something like this, of course, hard times and have it
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 15 gra nted as a PUD and then have this huge development out there be changed as a downsized PUD somewhere down the line. He said that happened with Wallin Woods also, it started out one way and there was a bit of a slump and it was downsized. He said the way y ou have it planned now is a nice plan and if it is built out it will be a nice plan but if the recession goes. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if each section had to come in for preliminary plat and be approved? Planner Carroll said if they wanted to change tha t they would have to come in with a public hearing. Chairman Sobkoviak said what happened at Carillon probably would not happen here because of the way the ordinances are written. Art Zwemke said at Carillon there was a financial issue, this was during the RTC and S & L and the underpinning of that. He said it was not the market, the market was there, the finances just disappeared from what he understood. Commissioner Seggebruch said regardless of what happened at Carillon, you said that the age restr iction is a deed that will run with the land so there is absolutely no way it can revert back to anything other than. He said that is a legal question but is there any it can revert back. Chairman Sobkoviak said anybody can sue and petition for anything . Commissioner Seggebruch said he would like to see that part in Will County so the Plainfield School District doesn’t ever have to deal with the issue of school kids from this development like they did in Carillon. Chairman Sobkoviak said this is a good deal smaller than Carillon. He said we are talking about the parcel down there, Carillon was a much bigger parcel and when it did not go the way it was planned it was a much bigger calamity. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if there was additional discussion on the appropriateness of issuing a special use permit to develop under a PUD. He asked if anyone had concerns that had not been met. Chairman Sobkoviak said he would leave it open to the Commissioner to bring up anything regarding the stage that we are at. He said to try and not get into things that were more appropriate at preliminary or final plat. He asked if there were any other issues regarding this development, any issues regarding annexation, the zoning mix or the request for special use permit. He referred to the list Staff provided and asked if annexation of the property provided for a logical extension of the Village limits? Is the proposed zoning appropriate for the property? Does the proposal meet the requirements of and merit issuance of a special use permit for a PUD? Does the Plan Commission support the density, lot sizes, and yard requirements? Is the general land plan satisfactory? Is traffic addressed satisfactorily? He said Staff supports a recommendation for annexation for the zoning that is requested and for the issuance of a special use permit. He said we have heard from Teska and Associates, they support the annexation and the zoning mix. He asked the engineer if he say anything in there that could be a major roadblock to t he Village or to adjacent property owners? He asked if he saw anything that could not be resolved during the due process that will evolve with the development of this parcel? Howard Hamilton said no, he thought we are in the right place for concept plan.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 16 Chairman Sobkoviak asked the Planning Staff if we had satisfied all of your concerns and all issues you brought forward and if not what concerns do you have that remain open and have you identified anything new since our two open hearings where we solic ited input from concerned citizens? Planner Carroll said at this point no, the only not really an issue but he has not heard too much comment except from Dan about the general land plan. He asked if they supported it. He said when we go to preliminary p lat and final plat we know what to look for, we know what corrections they need to make and things of that nature. Commissioner Kachel said part of the land plan with the green space being all Oswego Park District, we are not going to have a whole lot say because they are going to be developing it. Planner Carroll said it is not theirs yet, you can say whatever you wanted at this point, as far as what is going in it itself. Chairman Sobkoviak said up until preliminary plat starts putting cement on the br icks we and the developer are free to move the pieces of the puzzle. Art Zwemke said as I alluded before this letter of understanding which will be addressed to the Village Board pledges to put together a comprehensive phased development agreement the Vil lage and the Park District and the developer will sign off so there are three parties to it so you will know the specifications and the plans and the timing of this in that development agreement. Commissioner Kachel said the only reason he brought this us was before there was a Planned Community very similar to what you have. He said it was set up beautifully, he had wet space areas, green spaces and some play areas but it blended in, it was a park within itself and it really looked nice but it wasn’t a b ig green space area and if you look at a lot of developments around here, you can drive down 55 and see a big green space and that is what it is it is just a green space and he would really like to see this developed to the extent that it is a park area. He said you have the perfect name Grande Park if you take it off and if it goes through that way it could really be a jewel to everyone but if it is not it could be just a big grassy area with water holes in it too. He said as far as the concept take it f rom this point forward and everyone look at it that way. Art Zwemke said there is a pledge on the part of the developers to donate $1000 per homesite to a fund for the park – that is over $2 million. He said in addition to that wherever possible they can apply for grants whether they be public or private, for example we have almost 7 miles of trails in here and some of those sometimes are illegible for grants because they qualify for the Clean Air Act or some sort of thing like that. He said in this agre ement there is a paragraph that says we will work together where we can secure those funds and leverage for commitment we have already made to add more improvements. He said we know that that amenity is a one of a kind and not going to be just a grass fie ld. He said it is going to have a lot of bells and whistles, vertical type of interest there otherwise it is not worth anything. He said we know we have a jewel here and we just have to polish it. Commissioner Gehrke asked if we were talking about the d ensity and lot sizes tonight. Chairman Sobkoviak said no. He asked what is the proposed gross density for the entire parcel. Art Zwemke said 2.64.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 17 Commissioner Gehrke asked the applicant to identify where the 75 -foot lots were going to be. Art Zwemke said there are three different lot sizes, in the first phase that they intend to develop initially there are 12,000’s and 11,000’s and 10,000’s. He indicated which were 75 feet across, which were 80’s and which were 90’s. He said there are different widt hs and different depths. He said they are not asking for any side yard variances from the standard. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if there was any additional questions or discussion. Commissioner Seggebruch said he would like to bring up an issue he discu ssed at the last meeting. He said it refers to general land plan and somewhat to traffic. He said we talked about the issue of underpass/overpass with the park. He said based on the response in the packet he was rather disappointed with the response. Art Zwemke showed a slide of a drawing of Stewart Road and Grande Park Boulevard. He said what concerned them as he expressed at the last meeting was the span of this kind of installation to cover this 150 path and then bring down this height. He said wh en they looked more closely, he was using numbers based on 13 feet high and when we turned it over to the professionals it was 17 feet. He said the underground is a little less in terms of length versus the span of going over ground. He said if the Villa ge wants to have this instead of a traffic signal we can do that. He said we are flexible, we are going to be here 10 years. He said when talking to the Park District there was a concern of wheeling up the stroller or bicycle up on this thing and coming back down or going in the tunnel. He said that was why they brought up the idea. He said if the Village would rather have just have a fully improved intersection with a signal, if fact that is what the design Tim showed was a potential signal there, if n ot we will put up one or the other with the structures. He said we have not done any engineering and we do not know if we have water table issues from a tunnel. Chairman Sobkoviak said he would fight the tunnel to the death. Commissioner Seggebruch sa id he thought most people would be intimidated. Art Zwemke said by the same token you are 17 feet up in the air and some people do not like to be closed in and some people do not like heights. Commissioner Kachel asked if they thought of taking mechanica l means from one end to the other. He said he knows they are talking about bikes and wheelchairs rather than a long ramp to bring people up and unload and take them across. Art Zwemke said he did not think of that. Commissioner Kachel said he was just t hrowing it out because everything is handicap accessibility. He said it is a large subdivision and he is against it down below too. He said with anything below ground there is all kinds of potential problems. Art Zwemke said that is what turned him off it. He said he would not let his kid go through the tunnel. He said but they are open to that. Commissioner Seggebruch said one of the main concepts of your development is assuming the Wikaduke Trail is going to go through. He said we are envisioning 4 to 6 lane traffic anyway
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 18 from 45 to 55 mph. He said he cannot envision anyone letting their child cross that road no matter how long the walk signal is. He said to him the commitment has to be right up front to put up that structure. He said when you l ook at your concept of the park you have this park and the road dividing it you might as well have the Grand Canyon if you do not have a way to safely get across it. He said in essence that bridge, if you have been following what has been happening in Chi cago they had a similar issue with Millennium Park and the Illinois Central tracks where they had to some kind of foot bridge over that to the new amphitheater they are building. He said they brought in an architect from California to come up with somethi ng very sculptural. He said he is not saying that but he said to him that would be a perfect opportunity to do some kind of identity signage on that structure so that people as they are driving through they really realize where they are. Chairman Sobkovi ak said we do not allow signage. Commissioner Seggebruch said when you are talking about polishing the jewel, to me that is the crown right there. Art Zwemke said no objection. He said they have looked at a bunch of different things and we started to pu t the geometry together and said this thing is almost 700 feet, do we really want to do that. He said we looked into a full intersection. He said if it is the will of the Board here and the Village Board is for some sort of structure like that. Commissi oner Seggebruch said your idea is an interesting one. He said in Chicago they did some spiraling with it to shorten that length. He said with the water tower there you already have a tall structure. He said visually this being there is not a problem at all. He said it is an opportunity to do something very sculptural. He said if you have been on Eola Road with the Prairie Path, you have that footbridge going over. He said to him that was a very nice structure and he did not think anybody would be offe nded by something like that. Chairman Sobkoviak said he thought it was sufficient that they secure an agreement a verbal agreement anyway from the developer that they will address this bridge in a mutually agreeable fashion with the Park District and th e Village. Commissioner Kachel said before it goes to the Board again we need to look at how we are going to move that traffic because as much as we talked about it and where we are at with it, one of those things in the Comprehensive Plan, one of the firs t things we need to look at is this whole quadrant right there. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if the Village was going to address a transportation plan. Planner Carroll said yes it is part of the Comprehensive Plan. Commissioner Kachel said we need 2 or 3 wa ys to move that traffic and to try to get other people to go along with it. He said Will County, Township and IDOT and not just our plan this is what we would like to do. Chairman Sobkoviak said apparently the Village agrees with you and is moving forw ard with just such a plan. Commissioner Anderson said his only additional question is if we are going to have this nice bridge and park system, does it connect to the regional bikeway paths that we have.
PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION MINUTES April 10, 2001 Page 19 Planner Carroll said yes, the Plainfield Townshi p area bicycle plan has a path on the south side of 135 th and south side of 127 th . Commissioner Kachel said you have an active retirement community down there, you talk about bike paths, you have an aging community and there are wheelchairs and scoters. He said whatever you can do to accommodate everyone, not just the guy walking, the guy on a bicycle through that whole area so it meets the requirements because it is one of those issues that should be brought up. Commissioner Anderson made a motion to re commend annexation of the subject site with R -1, R -4 and B -3 zoning. Commissioner Anderson further moved that we recommend approval of a special use permit and concept plan for a Planned Unit Development on the subject site. Commissioner Kachel seconded the motion Vote by roll call: AYE: Kachel; Seggebruch; Gehrke; Anderson; Sobkoviak NAY: None Vote 5 -0 Motion carried. Chairman Sobkoviak advised the petitioner this would go forward to the Village Board April 16 th but to keep in contact with staff. Chairman Sobkoviak asked if there was any other business for the Plan Commission. Commissioner Kachel said before it goes before the Board to find out what is happening to 143 rd Street. Chairman Sobkoviak adjourned the meeting. Meeting Adjourned: 8:4 5 p.m. Merrilee Eighner