HomeMy Public PortalAbout2001-11-27 PC minutes WalmartSTATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. COUNTY OF W I L L ) BEFORE THE PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS had and testimony taken at the hearing of the above -entitled cause before Amy K. Bateman, CSR No. 84 -003803, RPR, on November 27, 2001, at 7:00 p.m., at 12450 South Van Dyke Road, Plainfield, Illinois. PRESENT: MR. JAMES SOBKOVIAK, Chairman; MS. MARILYN GEHRKE, Commissioner; MR. LARRY A. KACHEL, Commissioner; MR. WALTER O. MANNING, Commis sioner; MR. ROBERT SCHINDERLE, Commissioner; MR. DAN SEGGEBRUCH, Commissioner; MR. STEPHEN AMANN, Village Engineer; MR. DOUGLAS CARROLL, Village Planner; MR. MICHAEL S. GARRIGAN, Planner. PRESENT: (Continued) MC KEOWN, FITZGERALD, ZOLLNER, BUCK, HUTCHINSON & RUTTLE, by MR. CHRISTOPHER S. WARD, 2455 Glenwood Avenue Joliet, Illinois 60435 Appeared on behalf of the Village; DOMMERMUTH, BRESTAL, COBINE & WEST, LTD., By MR. JOHN F. PHILIPCHUCK, 123 Water Street Naperville, Illinois 60566 Appeared on behalf of Wal -Mart; and RATHJE, WOODWARD, DYER & BURT, by MR. MARK W. DANIEL, 300 East Roos evelt Road, Suite 300 Wheaton, Illinois 60187 Appeared on behalf of Pasquinelli's Heritage Meadows Community Association. ALSO PRESENT:
MR. CHRIS DANOS, Wal -Mart; MR. DONALD O'HARA, Kenig, Lindgren, O'Hara, Aboona, Inc.; MR. TRACY T. RICHARD, Manhard Consulting; MS. TASHA M. SETTLES, PBA Architects; MR. JACK WEBER, Pulte Home Corporation. - - - CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Good evening. The Tuesd ay, November 27, 2001 special meeting of the Plainfield Planning Commission is in session. All rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. (Pledge of Allegiance recited.) CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Thank you. Mr. Carroll, would you call the roll, ple ase. MR. CARROLL: Kachel. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Here. MR. CARROLL: Seggebruch. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Here. MR. CARROLL: Gehrke. COMMISSIONER GEHRKE: Here. MR. CARROLL: Manning. COMMISSIONER M ANNING: Here. MR. CARROLL: Schinderle. COMMISSIONER SCHINDERLE: Here. MR. CARROLL: Sobkoviak. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Here. Thank you. Commissioners, you have the minutes of our last meeting from the packet. Are there any additions or corrections to those minutes? (No response.) CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Hearing none, the minutes will be accepted as presented. This special meeting is convened to judge the case Case No. 904 -083101.S, Sam, P, Paul, R, Raymo nd, slash, Z, zebra, slash, S, Sam, U, union. This is a continuation of a public hearing for special use and zoning and site plan review for Wal -Mart -- a proposed Wal -Mart at 127th and Route 59. We will be following the same protocol and procedur es that we have in the previous meetings. With that, I am going to turn it over to Mr. Philipchuck who represents the Petitioner. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Planning Commission. My name is John Philipchuck. I represent the applicants for the Wal -Mart rezoning. We are here this evening as a continuation of the previous public hearing. You will recall at our last get -together that Tasha Settles from Perry Butcher & Associates, our ar chitectural firm, was asked to bring back elevations showing all of the sides of the building and then a little more information on the detail of the berm. So with that, I would like to reintroduce Tasha Settles.
MS. SETTLES: Once again, goo d evening. My name is Tasha Settles. I am project manager with Perry Butcher & Associates Architects. I have been with the firm for three years. I went through a rather lengthy history last time so I won't go back over that again, but what I did try and do was address some of the questions that you had at the last meeting and what I wanted to show -- I brought the four elevations out. We went back and added some detailing to the rear of the building and had a drawing done to detail the fact that the rear of the building mimics all of the other three sides so that in effect what happens is that you don't get a pretty building from the three sides the public sees and something foul in the back. So we wanted to indicate to you that that has be en addressed. We've added the same repetitive pilasters to the back. The materials will be exactly the same on the rear of the building. The compactor screen with a wall right here, it should blend directly into the building and you will not see anything protruding above that; but in fact you won't see that portion of the building, at any rate, because of the berm that's on the lot behind the building. I also brought a number of material samples this evening so that you could actually see the size of -- of the brick products. I don't know where to put these. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: These are heavy. MS. SETTLES: They are heavy. This is a through -brick masonry product. I also brought durability information on the p roduct for submittal. Also for submittal I brought information on the Resolite product. That is the garden center canopy product. There was concern last week about UV degradation. That is why we switched from a -- just one moment. Let me show yo u the difference. This is the Lexan product. Well, Lexan is the brand name. It's a polycarbonate product, and it has a tendency to turn yellow and have a degradation quality with -- with sunlight; and that's why we've gone to this new fiberglass -b ased product called Resolite, and I brought you the information on this product also along with a sample of it. Along with that, we brought information and samples of the shade cloth, that is a seasonal product. Let me show you this product. This is put on top of aluminum trusses for outside seasonal sales and it is taken down in the winter months when that portion of the building is not in use. We also brought information on the ornamental fence that will be used at the garden center. There are shop drawings of this in here if anyone would like to see the ornamental fence product. It is a black wrought iron product. And the Lexan product is used on partial portions of the walls, under eaves to frame in the RollSeal doors. And there is no way that I could bring samples of that. The RollSeal door is a retractable sidewall system that's made by Hired Hand Green, and that product is a -- is a door that runs on a motor down the side of the garden center area so that the walls can be retracted in good weather and clients can walk in and out of that area into the shade cloth area or back out into the store. It just allows for airflow, water, people, and that type of thing; and this climate does allow us to use that product. And it is here on this -- let me raise this up.
Where the ornamental fence is shown here on the store, the retractable sidewalls are behind that. They raise and lower depending on -- depending on sales. Also on here we -- we did dimensio n the top of the building, which is at 28 feet, and also there is another dimension and a red line that runs across the building right here that indicates the height of the berm and fence at the rear of the building. It's a 20 -foot height. Then thi s is the eight -foot compactor screen that's also indicated on here. And the 13 -foot eight -inch screen wall where the truck wall is which are both below the berm and fence height. The other request that we were asked to provide was a perspective sho wing deciduous trees from the residential lots. This perspective was taken from Lot 66, which is right here, looking into the store area. And -- just so everyone up here can see. Lot 66 is located right here in perspective to this way. T hank you. Once again, Lot 66's perspective looking this direction into the store. This is where the berm is lower and becomes higher. That's indicated here on the drawing. You'll see a bump up right here. At that bump up, you can no longe r see the top of the store. But this is an indication of what you would be able to see from that very, very front lot. MS. MEISINGER: Could you point to the lot again? MS. SETTLES: Yes. Lot 66 is this lot right here -- MS. MEISINGE R: Okay. Thank you. MS. SETTLES: -- looking this direction onto the site. And about two -thirds the way through Lot 65 is where the berm height increases, which is this bump right here where you can actually tell the fence rises right ther e. Okay. And then I'm going to clip up one other drawing here, and Tracy may have to assist me a little in the grades on this. We were discussing grade height right before this started, but we did add all the dimensions on here. The Lot 63 and 66 have a 40 -foot dimension on the berm, which is this width right here. Lots 61, 62, and 63 and 65 and 66 get the full 60 -foot width which is from this line to this line. At the highest point, the fence would be at 22 feet, which is roof line here, and it's also about right here on the Wal -Mart building. At the lowest point, it would be 12 feet, which is a little less than halfway up the Wal -Mart building here. And that's the front of the lot. And also -- you can't see this from a distance and I'm sorry. When we plotted these out, the lines just went away. There's a dashed line showing the berm height at lots -- at the appropriate lots. There's three dashed lines on here that run through this berm indicating which lots th e elevation is, so that way it's a little clearer what you're going to be able -- what you're going to be able to see with a mature 20 -foot tree height in which lot. The tree height maximum drop would be about right here on this drawing with the ber m height. I think that's -- the -- the thing that we did discover with the grades at the rear of the lots on all these homes is that they are pretty standard and there's only about a three -foot
variation among the grades at the rear of these lots. So doing multiple drawings to show the different heights really didn't behoove us. There's not going to be a drastic difference from one to another when you look around -- when you look around the site from this side; and all along the back here also, we checked all of these heights and they are all really within about three feet of one another. I think that's about -- about it for me unless there are other questions that are specific to the building. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Does the Commission have any questions? COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: I'm an architect, and I just was listening to what you were saying last time. I just want to clarify now, is this a precast building with this applied or is this a load -bearing masonry structure? MS. SETTLES: That is not -- it's neither actually. It's a steel structure. The steel takes all of the live load and dead load from the roof. The walls are for shear and that is a through -brick product. It's faced on two sides and it will not be applied. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Okay. So there's no precast in it. MS. SETTLES: No. No precast. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: So it's an actual CMU -- MS. SETTLES: Yes. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: -- on a steel frame. MS. SETTLES: Yes. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Did you say you used both these materials? MS. SETTLES: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER MANNING: And where do you use them? MS. SETTLES: The Resolite, that product right there in your left hand, is the product that is on the roof of the building. The poly -- the Lexan polycarbonate product -- COMMISSIONER MANNING: When you say roof -- MS. SETTLES: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER MANNING: The roof of the entire bui lding? THE WITNESS: No, no. I'm sorry. The roof of the garden center area. And it only comprises less than 33 percent of the square footage of the floor of that area. It is definitely researched and within the code parameters. The sidewa lls are very similar. They take up less than 50 percent of the sidewalls. And the product in your right hand does face the sides of the garden center area. Let me go back to -- here we go. The front sides and about a two -foot portion along the wall that would be in the Z axis here is -- is the Lexan product. This -- it's kind of difficult to see. There's a black line right here. Everything below that for about two feet is the Lexan product. Below that is the RollSeal door I was talk ing about earlier. The reason they continue to use the Lexan product on the sidewalls is because it does not get the direct beating of the sunlight. It doesn't have the tendency to degrade like the roof does. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Gentlemen.
MR. DANIEL: Thank you. Good evening. Just for the record, my name is Mark Daniel. I'm with the law firm Rathje & Woodward in Wheaton, Illinois, 300 East Roosevelt Road, Suite 300. Miss Settles, if you could take a look at the berm d rawing that you were reviewing earlier, the perspective shown from the berm drawing is shown from a point almost directly adjacent to the berm; correct? MS. SETTLES: Yes. MR. DANIEL: That was yes. And it did not depict standing, say, 30 feet from the berm at a slightly higher elevation, on a deck, on a patio, next to your swimming pool, inside on the first floor, or looking out a second floor window, did it? MS. SETTLES: No. We chose to depict the worse case scenario which wo uld be looking out the second story window. The sight line from there is what this line represents right here. (Indicating.) MR. DANIEL: Well, let's take a look at your other renderings here of the view from Lot -- what was it -- 66. That's the drawing that I'm talking about here. That's not from a second floor window. MS. SETTLES: Actually, this is creative license from the artist; and when a perspective like this is drawn, the elevation is not depicted from the -- from the point of vi ew -- if you actually were very honest about this, if this was a point of view of a person, they would actually be hovering off the ground a couple feet. MR. DANIEL: With respect to that creative license of the artist, in the event you had resident s living on Lot 66 retain this artist to show the view from the second floor window, would the creative license depict that view as being identical to what you see here? Not just a couple feet above it. MS. SETTLES: Well, I would have to go and p repare that drawing. There is actually a method to do that. But if this were taken from a second story window, just kind of second -guessing it, the view, instead of being dead on at the store on the sight line which is about -- if this is an eight -foot fence, this is about 12 feet off the ground, you're going to be about four feet higher which would raise your vision and put you into the store from an angle about like this. It wouldn't be significantly different. You would see about the same pictu re. MR. DANIEL: But you would see more of the parking, more of the traffic, more of the view between the fence and the store; right? MS. SETTLES: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Okay. You're an architect and you've studied that profession. You k now the value of a southern exposure; correct? MS. SETTLES: Depends from what -- where you're asking the question. MR. DANIEL: If you are buying a residential home, do buyers of residential homes or people that commission architects put a v alue in having a southern exposure on their lot lines? If you can have exposure to the south. MS. SETTLES: It really depends on the client, environmental issues, what's available to them. It depends on how they want their home designed, what kind of views they have to the south. I mean, it depends on so many factors, I really can't answer that question. MR. DANIEL: How about generally?
MS. SETTLES: No. I don't think it's any more important than having a western view or eas tern. MR. DANIEL: If I were to pull in a learned treatise sometime, let's say tomorrow night, and copied pages from that treatise about southern exposures and the value of sun and use of your backyard or a swimming pool or anything along this 22 -fo ot cavern you're building or designing, do you think that treatise would support that you don't think there's a lot of value in a southern exposure? MS. SETTLES: I didn't say there wasn't value in a southern exposure. It depends on what the client's looking for based on their site, based on what kind of economic and environmental factors they want their house to obtain. Southern exposures does allow sight of the sun from most positions in the Northern Hemisphere from dawn until dusk. It also increases heat load in the house. Sometimes people don't want that. So it really depends on the client. I can't say that that would be a negative or positive. It depends on the client and how they want their house to sit. MR. DANIE L: You're from Arkansas. If you're in Chicago, Illinois, in the middle of winter or, let's say, during the fall or the spring months, the southern exposure is important because it does give you that exposure to the sun and that warmth; right? MS. SETTLES: Like I said, the southern exposure allows you to see the sun from daylight until dark, yes. MR. DANIEL: In respect to these tiles that you depicted earlier, when you were talking about degradation and the turning yellowish as a result of exposure to the sunlight, about what percentage increase in cost of development do you think that change attributes or will account for? MS. SETTLES: By using the Resolite product on the garden center roof? MR. DANIEL: (Indicating.) MS. SETTLES: I haven't done any figures on changing that product. That was a prototypical change that Wal -Mart made to the building approximately eight months ago and I haven't looked at the figures on that. MR. DANIEL: I have no further question s at this time. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: You can pass the mike to Mr. Philipchuck, please. You may have -- you may have somebody in your group with a question. MS. HALLEN: I have a couple of questions about the -- do you want me to come u p there? CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Please. Is it regarding this presentation? MS. HALLEN: Yes. It is in regards to the architect and the building itself. My name is Catherine Hallen, H -a -l -l -e -n. I reside at 24125 Pear Tree Circle in Plainfield. I have a couple of questions in regard to your -- your front of your building. In the design of the front of your building in regards -- I'm talking now from the perspective of a handicapped person. Will that be a level entry or will it have like a slight slope up and a ramp to go into the building itself?
MS. SETTLES: The store -- the architectural concrete that's adjacent to the store meets the asphalt at a level grade line. There is no curb. There are no curb cuts . And the parking lots are typically on a two percent slope. MS. HALLEN: Another thing, would your doors in the building be automatic so we don't have to push or pull in coming out or exiting the building? MS. SETTLES: All of the general e ntry doors for customers are storefront doors that are biparty automatic doors. The only doors that require manual dexterity are those on the perimeter of the building that would be used in case of fire and they have push -panic hardware on them. MS. HALLEN: Now that we're in quote -unquote a tornado alley up here, we never know which way they're going, will you have sufficient exits and with large print on them, exit signs, so we can see them? In other words, not just one here and one here, o ne on each of the four walls, but a sufficient number for exiting in case of a tornado. MS. SETTLES: Yes. There -- we do -- for every job and every -- every site app job that we do, we do an egress study for that store. And based on the cod e requirements in this area, which are NFPA Life Safety 101, you're required to have a minimum of 200 feet to any egress door within no matter where you are in the store. They are -- every egress door is located -- is enumerated by an LED exit light. The y also have exit signs on the door. MS. HALLEN: And I have -- let's see. Let me go down my list here. And then if you have any doors, say, washroom doors or anything that aren't push in and out or have knobs on them, will you consider with this new gadget they have, you can have your knob, it has like a lever effect so you can open and close a door easily? MS. SETTLES: Yes. All the doors that are used in this store are used with a lever handset, and we do abide by the Illinois Acces sibility Code. All of the checkout aisles have appropriate heights on them at all -- all spots in the store. That includes pharmacy, tire express, jewelry. The changing rooms are -- also meet the Illinois Accessibility Code with turnaround spaces in them along with all the public restrooms. MS. HALLEN: My last comment, I would appreciate it in your stores if somewhere, say, in fabrics, the fabric notion area or back by your hardware section, that you comply -- can have some benches where p eople like in my case can sit down and rest. Not necessarily a chair, but just a small bench on the wall where you can be able to sit and rest just for a little bit if you're going through the store. MS. SETTLES: I'll take that back as a suggestio n. MS. HALLEN: Thank you. MS. KAMINSKI: Hi. Kim Kaminski, K -a -m -i -n -s -k -i, 12352 South Heritage Meadow Drive. Can you tell me, are these trees depicted at maturity or is this the size they will be planted at? MS. SETTLES: I'm sorry. I was writing down her suggestion. MS. KAMINSKI: Are the trees depicted at maturity or is this the size they will be planted at? MS. SETTLES: That is one thing that Tracy Richard with Manhard would probably have to answer. He has more information on the -- the mature and -- and plant height these will be put in place at.
The way they are depicted, some of the evergreens, I honestly don't know what full height will be on these. The deciduous trees are low. They were drawn based on just a typical sample. Tracy. MR. RICHARD: Tree height that would be specified on the final approval landscaping plan is you have a combination of trees. You have deciduous and then you have the evergreens. Generally what is done is the -- the deciduous trees are planted in a caliper size just like you would buy them at a nursery; in other words, a two -and -a -half, three -inch caliper. Their height does vary. They're not -- they're not going to be much greater ball height whe n planted, roughly seven -- six, seven, eight feet, in that range. The evergreens are going to vary too on their size as they're depicted. In other words, you're going to have a variety of evergreens from six, seven, eight, even smaller. So are the -- are the height of the trees at what stage they're going to be just as I described, if you think of that comparison in respect to the berm, that's -- we have shown -- or what has been shown on here is some evergreens, evergreens along with some others. Those heights are going to vary. In other words, you're not going to see uniformly evergreens all at one elevation initially. That will be the initial plan. And both the height on the trees and on the evergreen will be, as I said, a requir ement and put forth on the final approved landscape plan. MS. KAMINSKI: So then how many years will it be before this depiction is actually correct? MR. RICHARD: The depiction, again, is providing, as far as its correctness, depending on th e trees you're looking at, some of the evergreen trees, they're depicted exactly correct. Some of them, as I said, as a function of the landscape plan will be small. So you will not have just a uniform, say, eight -, nine -foot -high evergreen tree. What I'm referring to, when the artist depicted this drawing, he chose and picked one size tree. The same thing of the -- the bush or the caliper tree here, this tree here is probably -- in my opinion, it would probably be smaller than it would be initial ly. You would not have, for instance, the lower -- this lower branch spread on that -- on that particular tree. And probably this depiction here of a -- again, a brush -type species would probably be much smaller initially. So it varies. But this is a rendering to try and give some form, some fashion of a view of the rear of the building. MS. KAMINSKI: Once they are at full growth, how much shade will that provide to the yards behind it? How much of the yard itself is going to be sha ded? MR. RICHARD: Shade will be a function of, again, the -- a combination of things, not only the tree, the fence, the height of the berm, but also that time of the year. Small. So you will not have just a uniform, say, eight -, nine -foot -high evergreen tree. What I'm referring to, when the artist depicted this drawing, he chose and picked one size tree. The same thing of the -- the bush or the caliper tree here, this tree here is probably -- in my opinion, it would probably be smal ler than it would be initially.
You would not have, for instance, the lower -- this lower branch spread on that -- on that particular tree. And probably this depiction here of a -- again, a brush -type species would probably be much smaller initiall y. So it varies. But this is a rendering to try and give some form, some fashion of a view of the rear of the building. MS. KAMINSKI: Once they are at full growth, how much shade will that provide to the yards behind it? How much of the ya rd itself is going to be shaded? MR. RICHARD: Shade will be a function of, again, the -- a combination of things, not only the tree, the fence, the height of the berm, but also that time of the year. In other words, obviously winter is goin g to differ substantially from summer in terms of the shade, if you know where I'm talking in that regard. How much shade, where it's going to be in terms of the backyard, we would probably have to research that. I couldn't give you an exact figure to say that that represents three feet, 10, 20 feet into the backyard. I would have to look at that. I don't have that offhand. MS. KAMINSKI: Okay. And also taking into account all these trees that are going to be there that weren't there befor e, people who did not want these in their backyards, how do we deal with the wildlife that is going to be nesting in these trees, in these bushes, if they didn't want them there in the first place? MR. RICHARD: Wildlife -- to my knowledge, mother n ature is not limited by any law on this planet that I'm aware of. And as far as wildlife, I have never come across a problem of any species, whether it's birds, smaller ground animals, et cetera, following any kind of restriction man puts up. And I 'm unaware of where you see the problem in terms of wildlife. There's currently wildlife out here right now. Will there be more, will there be less, depends as time goes on, as the years go on what happens. As an example, we have -- we have never experienced the amount of Canadian geese that we currently have. That happens to be a function not of anything the geese did, but what we did in terms of storm water detention ponds. MS. KAMINSKI: And as far as southern exposure goes, it is very important, especially -- well, to me it's very important. I can only speak for myself. But you can't plant a garden back there at the end of your lot like -- well, I can because I live on the field here, but those people all along there, if th ey wanted a garden all the way away from their house at the end of the lot, there's too much shade there now and that's not the only problem there is with this but I think it's a big problem. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: The next lady. State your nam e please. MS. MEISINGER: Lori Meisinger, M -e -i -s -i -n -g -e -r, 12426 Bob White. Looking at the fence, it's a wood fence. Is there any way we could have -- I don't know, just looking at this -- a brick facade, the same as the building instead of a wood fence? MS. SETTLES: That would be a function of a requirement by the planning board. MS. MEISINGER: In your opinion, would that look better if you had that brick facade as the fence to match the building or would that help like if t here's any graffiti on maintenance or cleanup?
MS. SETTLES: Brick can do one of two things. It can match the building or it can become monolithic and look too heavy for the site. Sometimes wood and timber products actually look better within the l andscaping. With graffiti, there is a very costly product that's a brick product that you can use that can be high pressure washed for graffiti. I wouldn't foresee that that would be a product that would be used in this instance. And once ag ain, the requirement of the product and what the fence looks like is a function of the planning board, and we will follow what their recommendation is. MS. MEISINGER: Okay. MR. BYRNE: My name is Jim Byrne, B -y -r -n -e. I live 12453 Falcon Dr ive, Plainfield. In the previous berm drawing you have that has the berm that's written on it, you had mentioned previously for Lot 65 and 66 and I believe 63, the berm width was 60 feet -- or 40 feet. I apologize. 40 feet. MS. SETTLES: 63 and 66. 64 varies. MR. BYRNE: Okay. Because that depiction says the distance from the lot line to the driveway is 41 feet, so I have a concern that you have misstated that. From the lot line -- MS. SETTLES: Right. MR. BYRNE: -- to the curb of the driveway is 41 feet. MS. SETTLES: From this lot line to the curb of the driveway. MR. BYRNE: You consider that entire distance to be berm? MS. SETTLES: Yes. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: John Philipchuck. I just had a couple of quick questions and points. The perspective that you showed, Tasha, you said it was from Lot 66 and it gave a perspective of an angle looking toward the Wal -Mart. If I could just turn you for a second and maybe refer to this drawin g. Lot 66 is the lot that's immediately behind the village pressure adjusting station; is that correct? MS. SETTLES: Yes, it is. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And if you look immediately south from that lot, where this perspective was taken from , by turning and looking immediately south, isn't the -- the view then to the south into the existing commercial zoned property? MS. SETTLES: Yes. You would see outlots there. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: In fact, if you look southeast from Lot 6 -- l ooks like 65, that also would give you a perspective not shown here, but looking into existing commercial zoned property; correct? MS. SETTLES: Yes. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And then as to the questions with regarding to the berm and the ability of someone to in effect put plantings, are you aware of any restrictions under the village code that would prevent any current property owner to put plantings on their property, shade trees, et cetera, that could in fact cause shade to fall on the adjacent p roperty perhaps affecting whether they could garden it or not? MS. SETTLES: No. I'm not aware of any restrictions. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Thank you.
MR. BREEZER: John Breezer, (phonetic), 12426 Heritage Meadow Drive. Going back t o the one perspective, this is during the daytime. Can you give an idea of what it will be like at night with all the lights on? I mean, is there anything that will depict how much lighter everything will be than what it would be with residential h ouses? MS. SETTLES: I'll address that to the degree that I can. There has been a photometric study done on the site of light levels which addresses footcandles across the site. Typically there are between one and three footcandles. A nd we have also addressed the lighting problem for the residents by focusing all of the site lights down. They will not be projected out in any way. And the lights that are on the building for security purposes will also have hoods that project the light down. MR. BREEZER: Thank you. MR. DANIEL: Miss Settles, Mr. Philipchuck asked you a few questions about whether you were aware of any codes that related to the heights of berm and foliage that might be on top of that berm or anywhere on th e property, regardless whether there's a berm or no berm. Have you read the Plainfield zoning codes? MS. SETTLES: No, I have not. MR. DANIEL: So you necessarily wouldn't and couldn't be aware of any of those restrictions; right? MS. SETTLES: No. That falls under the civil engineer's jurisdiction. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Did you ask the civil engineer whether he knew the answer to Mr. Philipchuck's question before you came in here tonight? MS. SETTLES: No. M R. DANIEL: All right. Now, let's take a look at this berm issue here. Mr. Philipchuck's questions related to whether or not there were restrictions in the zoning ordinance that related to the height of trees or other items on surrounding property . First of all, you know there are generally fence restrictions in zoning ordinances across the country; right? Maybe you can have an eight -foot fence or a six -foot fence or if you're at an intersection, you can have a four -foot fence; right? MS. SETTLES: I really can't answer that question. MR. DANIEL: Okay. You're an architect that was just testifying that there really aren't restrictions on what you can do on your property with respect to height. Let's talk about another o ne. MS. SETTLES: Actually what I answered was that I wasn't aware of any restrictions. MR. DANIEL: Just so we have the implication clear for the zoning commission here -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: The zoning commission is very well aware of height limitations in the ordinance. MR. DANIEL: In respect to the height of these types of trees, evergreens, what have you, on noncommercial property, Mr. Philipchuck raised the question of whether you could build up or plant any tree of any h eight.
In a residential situation, as an architect and in your professional experience, do you see a reason to have 22 -foot high berms with trees on top buffering one residence from another? MS. SETTLES: Once again, that's a hypothetical sit uation I can't answer to. MR. DANIEL: Okay. I'm just trying to follow the same comparison that you were able to follow with Mr. Philipchuck. Okay? So you -- you don't have a response to that question at this time? MS. SETTLES: No. MR. DANIEL: No. That's all I have. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Thank you, Tasha. Next for the Planning Commission, we have Mr. Steve Hovany from Strategy Planning Associates. I believe you received the fiscal impact analysis that was pr epared by his company with regard to the economic impacts to the community and the various taxing bodies with regard to the proposed Wal -Mart. Mr. Hovany. MR. HOVANY: Good evening. My name is Steve Hovany. I'm president of Strategy Plannin g Associates. I was asked by the attorney to give -- AUDIENCE MEMBER: We can't hear you, sir. I'm sorry. MR. HOVANY: Okay. My name is Steve Hovany. I'm president of Strategy Planning Associates. We're a planning and economic consulting firm in Schaumburg, Illinois. I was asked by our attorney to give you a synopsis of my professional background. After my master's degree in urban studies from Loyola University, I have had 18 years of planning and economic consulting and 15 y ears of municipal planning. My major job as a municipal planner was as chief planner for the City of Naperville and planning director for the Village of Schaumburg. This allowed me plenty of opportunity to see a lot of development. Strategy Planning Associates was formed about 13 years ago. We do planning and economic work. A good share of our business is in -- in the arena of fiscal and economic impact. We do about six or seven of these studies a month. I just checked on ones we wer e working on as of today in the office and they are Hawthorn Woods, Wauconda, Libertyville, Barrington Township, Elgin, Plainfield, and Huntley. So this is an area in which we are quite -- quite knowledgeable. We do quite a bit of work on it. So o n that note, let me just give you some of the basics of a very -- many people call it a very dismal science, but I think very important. We're looking at a building with a square footage in two phases of 209,253 square feet. For purposes of t his study, we started the first phase right away and the second phase trailed by several years if that were to actually occur. The taxable value we estimated at a little over $5.2 million. The taxable value is also called the equalized assessed val ue. That's the value which property tax is levied against. In property tax, the total property tax bill from the structure will be a little over $380,000. Of this, the Village of Plainfield will get a little over $30,000. So you're getting about nine, nine -and -a -half percent of the total taxes levied from this parcel.
Looking just at the village first, the major revenue source from the village is we're estimating on completion that you would receive about $456,500 in sales tax. That's usin g pretty well accepted and standard sales tax generation figures for that parcel. You're going to have some utility tax and some interest along with the property tax. You're going to get about $512,500 in revenues per year on this parcel upon the buildout. The expenses which we have calculated at a little under $73,000 give you a good example of why communities tend to go after large commercial retail facilities and probably not as a surprise to you. But the net -- net to you aft er you're taking expenses and subtracting it from revenues is that you have a net income or net fiscal impact of about $440,000 after buildout and this would be continued on an annual basis. School District 220 which, of course, has no children but does have a continuing portion of the property tax will get almost $246,000 per year or per annum in property tax from this parcel. I would gladly answer any questions that anyone has on these, and I thank you for your listening to a bunch of number s. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Stay there. Go ahead. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Could you repeat the last number on the school tax? MR. HOVANY: Sure. The school district gets -- let's see. I can give you an exact number. Their tax r ate is $4.69.8 per 100 and that would equate to $245,743. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Just a second. MR. DANIEL: Sir, can I ask if you prepared any written report of findings here? I notice you've got some notes. I don't want to pry, but ar e there any data you pulled your information from that you can share with the objectors tonight? MR. HOVANY: The -- I don't know if you have the copy of the report. We gave them to the client but did not distribute them, so we did complete a repor t. Our sources of information were the tax bills, the village budget, and assorted information we got from the extension office. MR. DANIEL: Okay. I don't want to fish too much and take a lot of time here. Just a couple general questions a bout the report and then I would like to ask for a copy of that if Mr. Philipchuck would be so kind. The one thing that I do have a question for you on is the impact of this Wal -Mart store on other commercial developments and whether or not a Meijer store down the street, a Target which is already planned and underway, a store to the north have been considered under these circumstances in giving the members of this commission the tax numbers of net fiscal revenues to the village of $440,000? M R. HOVANY: The -- the numbers are -- are pretty well accepted standards, and they are very typical of Wal -Mart store -to -store sales for this type of market. I would only assume that all stores live in a competitive market and that the other stores and the information which we get from the dollars and cents of shopping centers produced by the Urban Land Institute are, again, in competitive markets where they do have competition.
So I would think that this would be an expectation of sales withi n a competitive market where there are other competitors that they have to deal with. MR. DANIEL: Were you aware when you prepared this study that the Meijer store was not planned to open for a period of time and that they wanted to be careful in t his particular marketplace because they weren't sure that the demand was immediately there? MR. HOVANY: I'm not surprised that Meijer made that decision. But no, we -- we considered the -- the expected revenues for -- for a store of this ty pe and we did not take into account specific other possible operations. MR. DANIEL: Did you take into account any issue related to this particular Meijer food store? And the following question would be whether or not at any time you've prep ared reports of this type for Meijer? MR. HOVANY: Yes. We -- we performed a similar type of study for -- for the Meijer store in Hoffman Estates and that was the basis of their -- one of the major bases of their annexation into Hoffman Estates. We did not -- we did not do any specific evaluation of Meijer as a competitor. MR. DANIEL: With respect to the particular property tax, have you noted any trends in commercial versus residential development and the impact of that development o n levied taxes in an area? Do you understand the question? MR. HOVANY: I don't -- would you rephrase the question, please? MR. DANIEL: Is there a relationship that you understand to exist between levied taxes in a given area, let's s ay, the Village of Plainfield or the applicable school district to this particular situation, and commercial or residential development and trends in each of those types of development? MR. HOVANY: Okay. Well, certainly there's several factors at play here. One is just that -- that commercial property tends to be assessed at a certain level which we get from looking at other locations and which we have accounted for. Obviously as commercial goes up, it becomes a higher percentage of tax rev enues to all the bodies; and since their -- their costs may be somewhat set, that means there's less of an impact on the residential tax base. I think that's probably pretty obvious. As -- as your percentage of commercial goes up, it covers more of the t otal costs. We find that the -- of course the trending here, in Plainfield, is very obvious, is that the residential is getting -- getting here first and that the -- the commercial is very rooftop based. And so growing communities tend to get very heavy on residential and then attempt to, as -- as time goes on, catch up with the commercial which comes only after the rooftops are here and is probably what -- what incites the present petition. I think that this is a pretty common occurrence. MR. DANIEL: Have you made any other particular presentations similar to this other than the Wal -Mart -- or I'm sorry, the Meijer store in Hoffman Estates? MR. HOVANY: In Hoffman Estates or from Meijer's? MR. DANIEL: Other than this store and the Meijer store in Hoffman Estates. MR. HOVANY: No. We have done this on -- on -- on several occasions, and we do a good share of all impact studies done in the suburban region.
MR. DANIEL: So you would expect Meijer to have pre sented these same numbers to the Plan Commission when Meijer came into the Village of Plainfield for its application; correct? MR. HOVANY: They would prepare a similar -- a similar analysis, that's correct. MR. DANIEL: And in an undeveloped state, the Meijer parcel does not bring in anything near even $30,000 a year in real estate taxes to the village or the net fiscal you mentioned of 440,000 that Wal -Mart anticipates at this site? MR. HOVANY: Well, I can't speak specifically to the Meijer site because I don't know exactly what's going on; but certainly a vacant site does not bring in tremendous revenues. MR. DANIEL: And in relation to a site that has this Wal -Mart on it but in a vacant state or an abandoned state that's been closed, there's certainly going to be some action at the Board of Review, isn't there, to reduce the tax levy and reduce the tax burden on this property because of the vacancies? MR. HOVANY: I think that's a little too speculative for me. I don't understand what this means. MR. DANIEL: There's been evidence presented by residents of another community that a Wal -Mart store closed. You have a K -Mart store that closed in Oakbrook Terrace. You have several hardware stores that close a nd leave vacant space. In your experience with taxing districts, isn't it accurate to say that some taxing districts suffer losses when vacancies like that occur? MR. HOVANY: In -- in -- in a general sense, obviously, if -- if commercial dis appears, there is -- you know, the taxing district is affected. MR. DANIEL: I don't have any further questions other than one. Did you prepare one of these studies for Pulte Homes before they prepared their petition? MR. HOVANY: Yes, we did. We prepared the fiscal analysis for Kensington Club. MR. DANIEL: And when you prepared the fiscal analysis for Kensington Club, that was a 79 -home subdivision; right? MR. HOVANY: I think -- well, it was a much larger subdivision. MR. DANIEL: Correct me. Go ahead. Correct me. MR. HOVANY: I think the part affected here is much fewer units. 60 -- or between 60 or 70 somewhere. MR. DANIEL: So this section of the subdivision that we're talking about the Wal -Ma rt occupying was roughly 70 or slightly more homes; correct? MR. HOVANY: I would have to ask them to verify, but I think that's about correct, yes. MR. DANIEL: And in your analysis at the time you prepared this fiscal impact study for Kensi ngton Club -- now I'm talking about the whole overall subdivision, each of the sections or half sections, whatever you might refer to, the entire Kensington Club subdivision -- you stated to this Commission that that would also have a positive impact on al l the taxing bodies including the school district; correct? MR. HOVANY: I believe with the mix that they had it was positive. But I -- I -- I don't totally remember what the findings were, but with this mix of residential -- the
residential was pr obably somewhat negative to the school district, but the commercial probably brought it over in the positive side. MR. DANIEL: And did you tender a copy of the initial fiscal impact study to the Village of Plainfield on that last application for Ke nsington Club? MR. HOVANY: Yes. It's part of their standard submittal package. MR. DANIEL: And this particular impact study is not part of Wal -Mart's standard submittal package. Is there anything that's much different from this stud y here related to the Wal -Mart store and the study for Kensington Club that would allow you to submit it for Kensington Club as a residential element to the Village of Plainfield versus the Wal -Mart store as a commercial element? MR. HOVANY: Obviou sly what one was, a largely residential community, whereas this -- this submittal is for this parcel only and is only a commercial project and probably simplifies the study in that we have fewer variables to deal with but that the only revenue sources are really minor taxes for utilities and some interest and the major taxes are property tax which is measurable -- fairly measurable and sales tax, again, which we assume from pretty much standardized sources. MR. DANIEL: I know I've said it twice befo re. This will be the last one. No portion of this fiscal impact study that you prepared for the Wal -Mart store relates to the impact on surrounding properties, lots to the north, the single -family lots to the west, the lots that might be on the peri meter areas, even 1,000 feet away or more from that Wal -Mart parcel? MR. HOVANY: You're correct. This -- this -- this relates to the fiscal impact of the relationship of revenue and -- and expenses for the development of the -- for the K -Mart comp lex. MR. DANIEL: Thank you. MR. HOVANY: I thank you very much. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: There may be other questions. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: We have one question. MS. FLANAGAN: My name is Maureen Flanagan, (phonetic), 12420 Her itage Meadow. I just have a quick question. How many dollars is going to go into our school district each year from Wal -Mart? How many dollars each year is going to go into our school district from Wal -Mart? MR. HOVANY: Assuming that Wal -Mart pays the property taxes, the expected annual property tax upon full buildout would be $245,743. MS. FLANAGAN: And all of that goes to the school? MR. HOVANY: That's to School District 220, that's correct. MS. FLANAGAN: Oka y. 220? 202. MR. HOVANY: 202, I'm sorry. MS. FLANAGAN: Okay. How much -- if you built 50 houses on that lot, do you have any idea how many -- how much money from their property taxes would go to the school district? MR. HOVANY: 50 houses, if they're four -bedroom would have about 1.18 students per house, so you have a cost side. The -- the -- if we assume that they pay about -- if they pay about -- if it's a $200,000 house, just as a raw number, they pay about two -and -
a -half perc ent in taxes, so that's about seven or 8,000 and about half of that would go towards taxes and you multiply that by 50, so 50 times four or five is 250,000. MS. FLANAGAN: Okay. So I just want to say, my point is if you build houses there, you woul d have the same amount of money for the taxes. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: No. MS. FLANAGAN: Which I understand. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: No. No. That's not what he's saying. MS. FLANAGAN: I understand that we put kids in the schools a s well. So I'm just saying that $245,000 to the 202 school district does not seem like a lot to me. That just seems like, you know, a little bit. COMMISSIONER SCHINDERLE: There's expenses. MS. FLANAGAN: No. I understand. I unders tand. But still -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: But the expenses outweigh the revenues for -- in general for housing, the expenses outweigh the revenues. MS. FLANAGAN: Do you think that $250,000 for our schools -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Anypla ce. Anyplace you want to name. MS. FLANAGAN: Right. But, I mean, I'm just saying, you know, I send $3,000 to the schools and I know I put kids in schools as well and I know that's part of it; but there's other things that are going to have -- we're going to have to pay for when Wal -Mart comes in. We're going to have to have police and increased security and other things that I can talk about later because that's not a question for you at this time. But I'm just saying it doesn't seem like $250,000 to a school district that's $60 million in debt is a lot of money. That's just my point. Houses are going to bring in tax payers to the school. Residential brings tax money to the school as well as commercial. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Oh, that's not true. Housing costs the village. Housing is not a revenue generator. Housing is a revenue eater. Remember that. The only way to generate revenue is with commercial or industrial. MS. FLANAGAN: No. I -- I pay ta xes. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Okay. The people who are lined up here, are you going to ask questions of this man? AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Okay. MS. FLANAGAN: I understand I kind of went off on a tangent, but I just wanted to get an idea exactly how much money is going to go into our school district. A school district that's $60 million in debt is a huge problem, you know, and I just wanted to see what would be the difference between housing and, you know, the c ommercial. MR. TRUPPA: My name is Tony Truppa. I live in 11326 South Marathon Lane, Champion Creek subdivision. The numbers that you mentioned, the 440 K net amount, that's based on the EAV of $5.2 million? MR. HOVANY: No. The $5 .2 million gives a total taxes of 380,000. The 456 net, that's the anticipated -- they get one percent of all sales, so that's a sales tax.
MR. TRUPPA: That was tax revenue plus the sales tax that's generated from the store? MR. HOVA NY: That sales tax is 456,503, to be exact. MR. TRUPPA: Then there's some expenses anticipated -- MR. HOVANY: Right. MR. TRUPPA: -- for the village and then that net -- I wrote down a net figure of about 440,000? MR. HOVANY: Right. When you figure it all out, it's about 440,000 to the positive. MR. TRUPPA: That's what the village can expect to see -- MR. HOVANY: That's correct. MR. TRUPPA: -- at least at the onset of this development? Does the location matter? If it's developed at this location proposed -- your figures are showing that kind of net figure. If it's developed a mile to the south, two miles to the south, three miles to the south, relatively speaking, all that's based on the EAV's and the sales tax generated. MR. HOVANY: That's correct. MR. TRUPPA: Would it be safe to assume that those kind of revenues would still be realized? MR. HOVANY: Obviously you have to have a site which would support this scale of st ore -- MR. TRUPPA: Right. MR. HOVANY: -- which this site is. If you have a similarly supportable site in a close proximity, you could expect the same results. MR. TRUPPA: You could expect the same -- MR. HOVANY: Same results. That's correct. MR. TRUPPA: All right. Thanks. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Mr. Chairman, could I get a clarification on the last question. The estimate you were using for the residential taxes -- the gentleman that was just u p at the microphone, I think he's the Wheatland Township Supervisor. If you'd like to check with him, I think your estimate might have been about double what the average residential taxes are in that area for that price house. MR. HOVANY: Y ou might be right. They pay about -- COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: I'm thinking more about 4,000 a year. MR. HOVANY: Yeah, 4,000 I think is right. Somewhere between three and four to the school district. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: You wer e saying seven or eight and I think you were -- MR. HOVANY: No. I think the total tax bill was that figure and the school district gets about half of that. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: No. I think the total tax bill is about 4,000. MR. HOVANY: Oh, is it? Okay. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: That's based on my knowledge where I live. MR. HOVANY: Pay about two percent of the house value.
COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: So what would the school district's share be at then on t hat? About 2,000 a year? MR. HOVANY: Yeah. A little more than half of that. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: So that would cut your number about in half, that number. MR. HOVANY: Okay. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: State your name, please. MR. BYRNE: Jim Byrne, 12453 Falcon Drive. You stated a revenue amount of somewhere in the neighborhood of $456,500 in sales tax. The representative from Wal -Mart previously in meetings with the homeowners and I believe testimony before this panel has said the expected revenue is $380,000. That's a 20 percent increase in your numbers. Can you justify why there's such a difference? MR. HOVANY: Sure. The K -Mart numbers is for their first phase which is 149,000 square feet. That comes out to be about $254 a square foot. Urban Land Institute expects a sales figure of about $250 a foot so the -- so they're very close to what is expected. They are, however, expecting an addition, which is Phase 2, which would be a grocery complex which would have a considerably higher anticipated sales tax rate; and when you add the two together, that's when you get my number. But the number he gave is just for the first phase. MR. BYRNE: Secondly, in discussions wi th Committee Member Seggebruch, you discussed the tax rates. The Herald News is advertising for the immediately adjacent property to the west, the homes are at a value of up to $325,000. So that makes the estimate more like $5,000 in tax revenue fr om a residential -- MR. HOVANY: Sure. MR. BYRNE: -- property, in the 79 homes. Also the village has already previously discussed and publicly disclosed the intent to grant $500,000 over five years of tax rebates, so that will reduce your tax revenue to the village by, for simple math, $100,000 per year; correct? MR. HOVANY: Well, not -- not really. What we did do when we did the study is -- so as not to try to overstate it, at that time there was a 10 -year request at -- at 75 -- $75,000 a year in rebate and we have deducted that out of the sales tax numbers in our report. And -- and so we have attempted to take into account their request for -- for a rebate which by no means has been approved, but we didn't want to overstate it so we did include the rebate from year to year within the report. MR. BYRNE: But then just to accurately state the case, as the preceding questioner asked, if this store were to be developed on a commercially zoned property that wou ld accept this size store, the village could see the entire $440,000 per year and not forgo the additional 250 to $300,000 in residential tax property revenue that would be generated; is that correct?
MR. HOVANY: In theory I think I -- if it doesn't go here and this goes into residential, then they'll get taxes from residential. If it goes someplace else, they will get the -- the commercial taxes someplace else. I mean, in -- in theory you're correct. MR. BYRNE: So just to be clear, the village could go from seven -- or $440,000 in revenue to somewhere of the neighborhood of 300 -- three -quarters of a million dollars in revenue if it were to have this on a different property? MR. HOVANY: Well, now you've gone and asked can the y specifically do that and -- and that, I can't say. The -- I can only tell you what the effect on this parcel will be. MR. BYRNE: Thank you. MS. KAMINSKI: Kim Kaminski, 12352 South Heritage Meadow Drive. Can you tell me within this study or for anyone else have you ever done a study on small businesses in the area going out of business because of a large commercial project such as this; and if so, what is the loss in revenue there? MR. HOVANY: In a -- we -- we have been call ed to do this on occasion. Generally we find that -- that in a growing environment like this is -- we just completed a study of a potential for small stores in downtown Plainfield; and, again, they're going after different markets and different mark et shares. And -- and basically everybody is working on a growing population. So it isn't taking one -- taking away one from the other. It's -- as of right now, there's enough growth to sustain everybody. And, again, most small businesses d on't directly compete with the K -Mart. They have their own convenient market and that's what -- that's what they cater to. MS. KAMINSKI: I respectfully disagree. And -- MR. HOVANY: Okay. MS. KAMINSKI: -- as far as the school district goes with property taxes, I think we should be looking at places like Del Webb who have retirement communities. Then we won't overfill our schools and we'll still get our property taxes. MS. FRANKEN: My name is Julie Franken, F -r -a -n -k -e -n. I live at 12340 Bob White Lane, and I had a question. You said that the village would be getting $456,000 in sales revenue -- sorry, in sales tax revenue. How much revenue does the store have to make in order for us to -- in order for the vill age to get that much money? MR. HOVANY: The sales tax -- basically the village gets one percent of all sales. In order to reach that number, they would get basically 100 times that number in total sales. MS. FRANKEN: So $45 million? MR. HOVANY: Which I believe is 45 million. 38 for the first phase and then another 38 -- 18 million or 19 million from the second phase. MS. FRANKEN: Based on what Mr. Danos said about how they came to this conclusion in picking this location, t hey said they took the sales revenue from the 60544 Zip Code. There are only 13,000 residents in the city. How much per person do we have to spend at your store in order to reach your revenue that's going to go back to our city?
MR. HOVANY: Well, I -- I didn't do their market analysis, so I can't speak specifically to that. But about 10 percent of your income is spent on -- on -- on food away from home and about another 10 percent is spent on -- on groceries -- another 15 percent is spent on groceries. So a good share of your income. Now, they, of course, have their own locational criteria and they have made their own decisions. You'll have to ask them, again, when you have the opportunity on how they based their market analy sis. MS. FRANKEN: My general point was that I did some calculating when you were speaking earlier; and based on the 13,000 people that are currently in Plainfield, we would have to spend close to $3,500 for each man, woman, and child in Plainfield and I don't think a lot of us can afford to spend that much at Wal -Mart. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Mr. Philipchuck. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: As to Ms. Franken's last point, Steve, I can't recall if you were here when we had the testimony of Chris Danos o f Wal -Mart. MR. HOVANY: No, I was not. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Okay. Then I have no other questions. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: You may proceed with your next presentation. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Thank you. I now would like to present o ur traffic engineer, Mr. Don O'Hara from KLOA, a traffic engineering and consulting firm. MR. O'HARA: Good evening. My name is Donald O'Hara, O apostrophe H -a -r -a. I am a senior vice president with the firm Kenig, Lindgren, O'Hara, Aboona, Inc., Better known as KLOA. We're located at 9575 West Higgins. And I am a traffic planner. I have been doing this for in excess of 30 years for a development as small as a single -family home to as large as a new town in areas all over the United States , Europe, South America, and Mexico. And we certainly have -- I certainly have had the experience in doing major retail developments such as the proposed Wal -Mart. And with that, I would like to give you just a fast overview of the traffic study we conducted for the subject site at 127th and Illinois Route 59. As everybody knows, the size of the facility is in excess of 200,000 with several outlots. And when we're conducting the traffic study, what we're looking at is existing conditions, ex isting traffic conditions as they are today and then future conditions and what they will be like after the development is in place totally. And what we included in our development would be the Wal -Mart as well as all of the outlots. And one of the things that is unique to this development is that everybody -- as everybody under -- understands and -- and knows, and I believe one of the questions earlier in the meetings was that Illinois Route 59 is under construction and how can we do an accurate t raffic study given the fact that 127th Street is closed and Illinois Route 59 is under construction. We have the unique ability that there is an intersection design study, or IDS, that has been conducted for Illinois Route 59 and 127th Street by t he Illinois Department of Transportation. The Illinois Department of Transportation in their IDS looks at volumes and projects volumes to a -- a date in the future. And in fact, for the IDS study it was the year 2010.
So the volumes that we were l ooking at are for the year 2010. However, for our study, that's not exactly everything that we have looked at. We -- in fact, our firm has been involved in development in the traffic study for Pulte, the traffic study for the Target, and obviously with the business park coming on -line, we have included all of those development volumes during the peak hour of 4:00 at this particular study. Given that fact, we looked at and evaluated those volumes and compared them to the IDS. With the volumes that we're anticipating for our site as well as all of the other developments that are under construction or will be constructed under full buildout, our volumes were in fact 35 percent higher than the 2010 volumes that were indicated in the IDS by the Ill inois Department of Transportation. So given the fact that our volumes are considerably higher, we feel fairly confident that the volumes going into and out of our driveways as well as the volumes that are on the external roadways, 127th and Illinoi s Route 59, are probably conservatively high for the very -- for the future. It will go for several years into the future given the volumes that we have utilized. And obviously with this type of development, we're looking at access and we're looki ng at how do we develop that access. Well, it's going to be based on purely the volumes going into and out of that -- the subject site, and we need to know how they're on the roadway. And as such, we're looking at the distribution. The distri bution that we're anticipating is that approximately 88 percent of the traffic will be on Illinois Route 59 and approximately 12 percent of that volume will be on 127th Street. And obviously, again, it gets down to how many points are we anticipating. Well, in our study, we looked at two driveways on Illinois Route 59 as well as two driveways on 127th Street. And the driveway to the west of the main driveway would have full access and be aligned with the proposed driveway to the Target site. The full access on Illinois Route 59 would be located as far north and be aligned with the driveway for the business park on the east side of Route 59. In addition, there would be a right turn in and out on 59, and we are anticipating a right turn in and out for the outlots just west of Illinois 59 on 127th Street. Given the fact that this development and all of the outlots, we're anticipating the peak hour being -- occurring during the p.m. on a weekday when there will be approximately 790 veh icles entering the site and approximately 775 vehicles exiting the site. Again, you have to understand that that's on full buildout and that includes all of the outlots. For the Wal -Mart, Wal -Mart would equal approximately half of the volumes . In the roughly 800 vehicles, 400 of them would be proximately associated with the Wal -Mart, 400 of those would be associated with the outlots. And these are not all new trips that are on the external roadways entering this site. These -- approxi mately as many as 25 percent and upwards to 70 percent of the trips entering this site would be traffic that's already on the system bypassing the site and stopping as another trip, i.e., being a work to home trip or a work to another shopping trip that th ey would stop at an outlot. So we're anticipating that quite a few of the vehicles would be already on the system, so it's not all new traffic going into and out of this site.
And that's not anything that's unusual given a commercial developm ent. With the planned improvements in our analysis, in order to have all of the intersections operate at an acceptable level of service, by the urban standards, that would be a Level of Service D or better. And I don't want to get into giving you dissertation on the levels of service, but it's very much like a report card: "A" being the best and obviously "F" being a failure. Given that, all of the intersections actually operate at a Level of Service C except for one which would operate at a Level of Service D and that would be an unsignalized driveway to the west opposite the Target during the p.m. peak hour. And with that, what we had developed was what is the cross -sections that are necessary for the driveways. We have -- for the full access driveways both on Illinois Route 59 and 127th Street, that would be the northerly drive and the westerly drive, there would be one inbound lane and two outbound lanes that are a requirement. And I know the plan in front of you i s showing a multitude of lanes and that, obviously, has to -- has to change since that will be -- on 127th Street that will be under stop sign control; and it's very difficult to have a left turn, a through, and a separate right turn occurring under stop c onditions opposite another major driveway from the Target store. And the Illinois Route 59 driveway also needs two outbound lanes, and they would provide for a separate left or a separate right turn lane, and the right -in and right -out obviously be ing one lane. And the important -- important improvements would be the separate right turn lane to each of the driveways on Illinois Route 59 and to the two driveways that we are anticipating on 127th Street. In addition, one of the other qu estions was -- that I heard when I was here -- I've only been here for a couple of the meetings -- was that the -- I believe it was an emergency response time for the fire department. So I called the fire chief to ask them given the fact that we are not going to be developing the -- the residential development which would have a driveway that would hook up into the Heritage Club development, would that affect their response time and would it have an effect on the residents in that area. And th e chief told me that there would be no difference in what's occurring and the response time for them. As they're going into that area now and in the future, they will not have a problem with that. Obviously with the police department, that the poli ce cars are in fact operating within the community and in the side streets and they all have the same -- I have assumed have the same type of response time. With that, I am more than happy to answer questions. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Do the Comm issioners have any questions at this time? COMMISSIONER MANNING: Mr. O'Hara, you anticipate a stoplight at 127th Street and a stoplight at the northern entrance to this property? MR. O'HARA: The only stoplight that we're anticipating would be on -- at some point after the Wal -Mart is in place, it's going to be some of the development of the outlots --
CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Could you point to that on the -- MR. O'HARA: Surely. Looking at the Manhard plan, the signalized i ntersection we're looking at is on 1 -- on Route 59, the northerly drive. And what's going to happen is that because this is a strategic regional arterial, or better known as SRA's, you must meet the volume warrants before they will allow signaliza tion to occur. Wal -Mart in and of itself normally will not generate the volume necessary for a traffic signal; but given the development of the outlots to the east on the same parcel, the volumes that will be generated with the combination of the tw o will in fact generate the need for a traffic signal. We're not anticipating a traffic signal on 127th, but I would say that to the westerly -- the westerly drive, we're not anticipating a traffic signal at that location. But obviously with the T arget in place and as development grows to the west, there may in fact be a need for a traffic signal in the future. COMMISSIONER SCHINDERLE: What about the intersection of 59 and 127th? MR. O'HARA: That is going to be signalized. The state is doing that as part of their improvement. COMMISSIONER MANNING: So you anticipate a signal there and anticipate a signal at the northern entrance? MR. O'HARA: Right. What we're anticipating is the signal at 127th and Route 59 and then the northerly drive into the -- into the site. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Did you calculate the impact that those two lights would have on the main entrance to Heritage Meadows to the north? MR. O'HARA: Well, that was one of the things I m et with the Illinois Department of Transportation relative to what's going to happen to access into Heritage Meadows, the residential street there. And I want to say to the gentleman's name is Kevin Belgrade and he stated that if the driveway is goi ng -- has full access and will remain as full access and that the effect should not -- there should not be an effect on that particular intersection. It's still going to be -- the wonderful thing about traffic engineering is that everyone with a dri ver's license can certainly look at and understand when you're delayed, you're in congestion. If you're driving on Illinois Route 59 today under -- while it's under construction and if you were to drive from the -- from the north through Napervill e, then you know what congestion is like. The -- the I issue is that given peak times of -- of driving and exiting out of any type of unsignalized roadway or intersection, it's very difficult on a multilane road to make a left turn. One of th e things that are being developed with this is the median that will provide the protection for some of the traffic pulling out on -- under unsignalized conditions because you have the protection of the center, pulling across two lanes and going into the c enter median. However, making a left turn out on a high volume roadway is difficult under any condition.
The nice thing for Heritage Meadows is that they have alternatives. They'll have the alternative to come down to 127th. In the future, they'l l have the ability to go to the -- to the north to 119th if they so desire. And they'll still have the access out to Illinois Route 59 under unsignalized conditions. It's during the peak times that they're going to have to look at what is the shor test and easiest way for them to enter the system. It's not an unusual condition for traffic planning. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Any other questions? COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Can you explain again on 127th where the two -- the two drives a re going to meet? How did you say you thought that would work as a stop sign intersection in terms of the number of lanes? MR. O'HARA: If you look at -- under the plan, the colored plan here, there is -- one, two, three, four -- five lanes. We're anticipating only three and our analysis only looked at three. It would be a -- a separate left turn out and a through or a right turn, the through being -- going across to the Target site. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Oh, okay. One in and two out. Okay. So you're saying as a four -way stop, then that would -- MR. O'HARA: This would just be -- it would be a two -way stop. 127th is not going to be a stop. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: You don't think it will ever become a four -way st op? MR. O'HARA: No, I don't think so. COMMISSIONER SEGGEBRUCH: Okay. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: In relationship to the entrance directly above that we were just talking about, does that tie in with Wolfcreek, on 59. If you didn't h ave a light there and if there was a light at the intersection up where the residents come in and out right now, does that tie in with a four -way stop there at that point, Wolfcreek, or is that just one -sided? MR. O'HARA: Up here? (Indicating.) COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Right. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Doug, do you know? MR. CARROLL: Up to the north? COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Right. To the north. In other words, if you put a stoplight here at the subdivision, chances are IDO T won't allow another light up above there; correct? MR. CARROLL: I think IDOT's requirements are a quarter -mile spacing for signalized intersections. I don't know -- I don't know what the distance is between the two. COMMISSIONER KAC HEL: So is that less than a quarter of a mile there? MR. CARROLL: I think it is, yes. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: But does that intersection tie in with -- directly across the street with where another intersection would be? MR. CARROLL: Correct. MR. O'HARA: That is correct. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: The residents won't have a stoplight to get in and out. The commercial will be the only one with a stoplight to get in and out.
MR. O'HARA: That is going to go into the b usiness park. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: The business park. MR. O'HARA: That's going to have a driveway opposite the business park which would be a much higher generator. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: It's a higher generator. Just the idea, when you think up above, the residents getting in and out, that's their main thoroughfare rather than having to come down through. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Who is the governing authority? MR. O'HARA: The Illinois Department of Transportation is the governing authority. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Well, what I'm saying is if it wasn't going to be a Wal -Mart in there and if it was going to be residential, would that still warrant a light there or would the light go to the residential property to the north? MR. O'HARA: I would doubt that -- it's very difficult to warrant a traffic signal through just pure residential use under a volume warrant. And they have just gone through and changed the warrants and they've reduced the warrants for tr affic signalization. So I -- I would doubt that a residential -- COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Even two subdivisions, one to the east and one to the north, and the fact that that's the main collector all the way through there and the only collector over to 143rd Street. MR. O'HARA: Right. It just depends on if the particular intersection can meet the -- one of the warrants for traffic signalization as set by the State of Illinois, and then you have the opportunity. And the quarter mile spaci ng is the desired spacing, but the state has in fact put in signalization at roughly 1,000 feet, which is less than the quarter mile spacing, but they -- yes. The quarter mile spacing is what they desire. But it -- again, it has to meet Marty Frank en, F -r -a -n -k -e -n. And I was wondering if I could just ask you one quick question here, sir. You had mentioned during peak hours a number just in excess of 700 cars going in and 750 cars going out and I believe you had mentioned that 88 percent wou ld exit out onto Illinois Route 59. I did my math. I just rounded it to the lower number. I hope this is right, but I came to 1,232 vehicles. With this being a signalized intersection -- and just pointing out for the Commissioners that obv iously there are homes here -- would you agree that a large number of those 1,232 vehicles, assuming my math is right, give or take, would be exiting through the signalized intersection there, entering and exiting? MR. O'HARA: You'll have to forgiv e me, I don't have my eyes on me. What we're anticipating maybe -- is it all right if I get some help from the gentleman? What we're expecting during the peak hour at this driveway is 340 making a left and 130 making a right through this driv eway during the peak hours. MR. FRANKEN: Well, then, obviously that will be separating between here. I assume some vehicles will be going out that way, but that's the number you have there here. Okay. And then the other thing, you had ment ioned the residential section to the north here -- and I would agree completely that typically residential doesn't justify a signalized intersection.
I don't know if you're aware of it, however, but there's a large industrial park here on the othe r side which exits from that side. I just -- and if I'm overstepping my bounds, feel free to chastise me here publicly. But would you -- would you acknowledge that it's within the realm of possibility that the combination of those two, within time, could justify a signalized intersection? MR. O'HARA: Again, I -- I really have to stand here and apologize. I'm not trying to say that there isn't room for a traffic signal down there. All I'm saying is that even given the Wal -Mart, there is not going to be a signal here until it's -- until the volume is there and warrants a traffic signal. As far as the business park, that was included as part of our -- our evaluation of this particular intersection and obviously that -- that is fai rly large and it does go down there; and the volumes for the business park, if they generate the need for a traffic signal, that obviously is one that you can go to the Illinois Department of Transportation. And that's one that's out of my realm. It's up to Illinois Department -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Generally when it comes to traffic lights, the village can ask but they really don't have any more -- more power or authority in that request than you do. MR. FRANKEN: Thank you. MR. O'H ARA: You're welcome. MR. TRUPPA: Tony Truppa, 11326 South Marathon Lane, Champion Creek subdivision. I just had a couple of questions. I understood you mentioned something about an IDS prepared by the Illinois Department of Transportation that went out to the year 2010. Is that correct that their estimation went out to that far? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. TRUPPA: And did you mention that your firm's analysis anticipated a volume 30 percent higher than what they calcula ted or they anticipated? MR. O'HARA: Actually, I believe it's approximately 35 percent higher. MR. TRUPPA: All right. So I'm not a traffic engineer. That's pretty alarming to me. You see all the construction work going on on Route 59, s pecifically there's a lot going on at this intersection. I was assuming that those people at IDOT, you know, had their numbers straight and they were calculating out volumes correctly; so they look a little short -ended as far as what they anticipate compared to what you're saying your firm's calculated. Did your firm do a daily average volume considering Wal -Mart being at the facility and also considering Wal -Mart not being at that facility? MR. O'HARA: I believe the original traffic s tudy that our firm conducted for Pulte Homes with the 10 acres of commercial outlots included the -- I believe it was -- the plan that we worked off had 76 homes on the Wal -Mart site, and the traffic study did in fact look at it with that. MR. TRUPP A: So you do have some information that shows Scenario 1 which would be homes, Scenario 2, commercial development at that corner? MR. O'HARA: Our firm conducted the study for the -- for the homes, that included homes without a Wal -Mart. MR . TRUPPA: I'm just trying to get this thing sorted out in my mind because -- MR. O'HARA: That's all right.
MR. TRUPPA: -- I mean, this is something that maybe the Planning Commission wants to consider. It looks like there may be a t raffic issue just on the surface if IDOT has underestimated what's expected in that area. Who knows, maybe IDOT has reviewed it based on homes, not an intensive commercial type use. Thanks. That's all. MR. O'HARA: And what I would like to say is their IDS was developed from past data for this area for the year 2010 and CATS is the Chicago Area Transportation Study, and they're usually the -- the group that will provide the future traffic volumes for that area given the planning for the area . And what our volume -- why our volumes are higher than theirs is that we looked at a Target store going in there, a business park being there as well as a Wal -Mart being in there and they generate several vehicles more than 76 homes, for instance -- MR. TRUPPA: Right. MR. O'HARA: -- instead of Wal -Mart. MR. TRUPPA: Yours are very specific to commercial. MR. O'HARA: That's right. So ours would naturally be higher, and what we're showing is that in fact 35 percent hig her through that intersection. MR. TRUPPA: Thanks. MS. TIPTON: Hi. I'm Karen Tipton. I live at 12410 Falcon Drive. First of all, I have -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Closer. MS. TIPTON: Actually I have a comment to make. First of all, 59 down on this end, all this construction that they're building these roads, they're only having two lanes going north and south on 59. Am I correct? There is not three lanes; there's only two lanes going each direction. Am I right? MR. O'HARA: That's right. MS. TIPTON: Okay. Now, if you are familiar with Naperville down on 59 by Fox Valley where all the mall is at and the -- and the Wal -Mart and the this and the that, down there, all those stores, all those -- and you know how congested it is down there, you can't even drive your car on 59 down there. It is stop and go and stop and go, especially on a weekend. Now, their lanes down there are like two and three -- actually, three and four lanes becau se they have only lanes. And that part down there is so congested because it's store after store after store. Now, we're going to do the same thing in Plainfield, store after store after store, but we only have two lanes of traffic -- of traffic go ing north and south. So if our -- if their traffic in Naperville is loaded now that you can't even drive down there, just imagine what it's going to be down on this end of town in Plainfield trying to get to and from anywhere, because you only have two lanes going north and two lanes going south. Another comment I have is because of all this traffic that we're going to have, what streets do you think people are going to go down? They're going to take the back roads. They're going to hea d down the new Van Dyke Road. What is on new Van Dyke Road? The middle school and the new grammar school is right off of new Van Dyke Road.
So you're bringing in all that traffic now in the back roads so -- because people will not sit in that traf fic trying to get home from work, trying to get home on the weekend, whatever; so those -- all those back roads back there no longer are going to be like two and three cars driving in an hour apart or whatever. They're going to be a lot of traffic and ri ght in the middle of where the schools are at. I mean, I am not opposed to a Wal -Mart. I have said that before. I am not opposed to a Wal -Mart in Plainfield. I am opposed to where you want to put this Wal -Mart. There is no reason that you h ave to put a Wal -Mart on Route 59 when there is other areas in Plainfield, even if it was off of Route 30. If a person wants to go to Wal -Mart to shop, they're going to go to Wal -Mart to shop. It doesn't have to be off 59. Thank you. (Applause.) MR. BYRNE: Jim Byrne, 12453 Falcon Drive. Sir, a couple questions. You had mentioned previously that, if you may, that you had done the study for this property both for Pulte and for the Wal -Mart situation in which case the commercial prope rties were located here in both cases. Before the Wal -Mart consideration, was there ever, in your 30 years of experience, an opportunity that this would create -- if it was residential with no exit to 59, would it create the need for a traffic signa l here and preclude the possibility, under the quarter mile rule, for there to be a traffic light at the intersection of Pasquinelli Drive and Route 59? MR. O'HARA: Just so the -- that everyone understands is that we did in fact conduct the traffi c study for this parcel, and one of the things that was brought up to the Illinois Department of Transportation just with this development was that given what was going to be developed on the opposite side of the street that there in fact probably would be a need for a traffic signal at this location. So even with the Pulte development, we were anticipating that there would undoubtedly be a need at some point for a traffic signal at that location. MR. BYRNE: Let me be clear in my question the n. If this was not developed commercial, there would be no exit here; it would be at best a right only. There would be commercial property here but the exit is up parallel to Pasquinelli Drive. There is not an exit parallel to the industrial park currently. That road's blocked off. It's just a one -lane blacktop that's got a chain across it if you drive by. The exit for Iron Run is up here. Under that scenario, is there a way there would be a four -way or a stoplight there? MR. O'HARA: If the business park wasn't there? MR. BYRNE: The way it's currently designed. MR. O'HARA: As it's currently designed, with the one lane and without a Wal -Mart and with this development, I don't know. If it warranted the vol umes that were generated by these outlots, if it warranted the signal, it would be there. You would just have to meet warrants is all I can tell you. And whether they would put another signal in, that's something that the Illinois Department of Tra nsportation has to address. That would come from your village, with
you asking your village and your village -- the staff would ask the State of Illinois to study it. That's all I can tell you. MR. BYRNE: Fair enough to that question. What I really specifically wanted to ask is in your 30 years, have you run across any studies that indicate the injury rate to pedestrians that occurs per 100 or per 1,000 cars that go through two -way stops or where there is a public crosswalk and no stoplight ? MR. O'HARA: None that I can think of off the -- off the top of my head right now. MR. BYRNE: Then let me ask specifically. When there is a cross -section here between the Target and the Wal -Mart with just a stop line in each side, as you noted the traffic pattern of exiting and egressing, you had noted that 30 percent of the traffic on this road would be generated because Wal -Mart was there on what's currently zoned residential property. 30 percent increased traffic on 127th Street . This is a crosswalk for the children that live in Kensington Club to come across to the school you now stand in. Under your prior testimony, you don't believe this will warrant any form of traffic lighting. In your 30 years of experience, can you tell me we will not see more increased pedestrian injuries because of Wal -Mart being -- because of this property being rezoned commercial and Wal -Mart occupying the space and an increase in the traffic load on 127th Street by 30 percent? MR. O'HARA: I just don't have anything that I could address that issue. The 30 percent, I don't know where you're coming from. The 30 percent -- there is, I believe, about five percent of the traffic to the Wal -Mart would be on 127th Street. M R. BYRNE: Well, I have to look back in your prior comments, but I had wrote -- I had written previously that 790 vehicles come in, 775 exit; 400 will reach the outlots. So 300 cars of traffic wouldn't be part of this if the zoning wasn't changed. Then the -- I had noted 30 percent of the traffic would -- 70 percent of the traffic that enters the Wal -Mart would be passing that property anyway. That makes me 70 minus -- 100 minus 70 says 30 percent of the traffic would not be passing the Wal -Mart -- would not be passing this property if Wal -Mart wasn't there. Maybe I misunderstood. MR. O'HARA: I think you did misunderstand, and I apologize for that. You have to understand that approximately 88 percent of the traffic or 88 percent of the 700 or 800 -- we'll deal with the 800. That 88 percent of that is on Illinois Route 59. You have two opportunities if you're on Illinois Route 59 to enter the Wal -Mart site. You can either make a left turn onto 127th and a right into the sit e, or you can continue on and make a left at the light into the northerly -- northerly drive. There are two opportunities. Coming from the -- from the north, you obviously will have two opportunities to turn in and it will be -- it will occur on Il linois 59. I don't think that people would pass up two driveways or two opportunities to go into the Wal -Mart and go beyond the Wal -Mart and make a right turn on 127th to make a -- another right on 127th to come into the site. So relative to the v olume, they will be almost 90 percent -- well, in fact, it's in seven percent, so we're looking at 95 percent of the traffic will only get to this point and will not get beyond that point. Approximately five percent will be in this section.
So it's -- it's a relatively low volume, but five percent of 700 is -- you know, as you increase it, are the opportunities there for a safety factor? Absolutely. I am not going to say it's not. But there are issues that you have to deal with in pedestrian cro sswalks. This is not a unique situation. MR. BYRNE: Thank you. DENNIS: Hi. I'm Dennis. I live in the Harvest Glen subdivision. In this traffic study -- MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Do you have a last name? Your last name? DENN IS: Dennis is fine. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: No. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Mr. Chairman, could he please identify himself? CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Please, we need to have your full name. DENNIS: I just don't think that's necessary. CH AIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: It is necessary. DENNIS: I don't believe that. My -- my question is -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Then your testimony will have to be stricken from the record. DENNIS: -- in the Grant Park sub -- Grant Park which is an 800 -home subdivision just to the west of this, and in these traffic studies, I'm curious if you're considering all that flow coming east when they only have the two roads which one is 127th and the other one is 135th. I wonder if any of this was tak en into consideration. MR. O'HARA: We have evaluated the -- obviously the 2010 volumes on 127th has taken into account quite a bit of development since they have a much higher volume than presently exist. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Before you star t, I need to ask, Mr. Philipchuck, do you have other presenters tonight? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I do if we have time remaining, yes. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Okay. MR. O'HARA: I'm sure he doesn't have any questions for me. (Indicating.) MR. DANIEL: Mr. O'Hara, I think we have worked together and bumped heads. I -- I know that you're experienced in this regard. And I guess from my perspective, I would like to have you identify for the Commission what your estimated bill for Wal -Mart is going to be, understanding that all experts are, of course, paid. But in this situation, what do you think your estimate is going to be, when were you retained, and were you retained either before or after the application was submitted? MR. O'HARA: Boy, those are some great questions. You know, actually, I don't know when we were retained. I believe it was at the -- towards the latter part of October. My partner, Louie Aboona, is the one in fact who had wrote the proposal a nd it came back to him. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Is there some significance to that question? MR. O'HARA: But the dollar amount, if you're interested in the dollar amount, I believe that what we have expended to date is roughly $6,000. MR . DANIEL: Mr. Chairman, in response to your question, there is an important significance to that question.
I'm not trying to discredit Mr. O'Hara. In fact, I noted his experience and I'm not going to profess to know much more than him. As a matte r of fact, far less do I know than Mr. O'Hara. The problem is at the beginning of this hearing, I heard a comment from no less than two of the Commissioners here that we were going to be able to present evidence and this is one of the reasons why, c ost, the ability to get evidence like the study that IDOT did, the ability to get documents from the village hall, despite your hard -working village clerk who has done a tremendous job responding to FOIA requests, we still haven't seen this traffic study. We've had an outstanding request for any traffic study submitted. We had an outstanding request for the Pulte traffic study. We had an outstanding request for a number of things. I have requested that this hearing be continued because this testimony affects the entire Village of Plainfield. It's probably the most important testimony this Commission is going to hear during the 10 -year period. I'll put the rest of this in my closing, but there is a lot of significance to this. Y ou have a study here that I'm going to ask Mr. O'Hara some questions about. And I'm going to try to match his traffic data with what the Village of Plainfield commissioned an engineer to perform some time ago. I think it was the 143rd Street extension. I 'm not sure what the name of the study is. Let me give it to you here real quick. Mr. O'Hara, have you reviewed the Thoroughfare Plan Origin and Destination Study dated November 10 of 2000? MR. O'HARA: Have I? Personally, no. MR. DA NIEL: Are you aware that anyone at your firm reviewed this particular document, the Thoroughfare Plan Origin and Destination Study? MR. O'HARA: I can't say that I am aware of anyone in our office has in fact read that or even looked at it. MR. DANIEL: I would like to go through some of the traffic numbers. In your study, what did you project the traffic volume to be on Illinois Route 59 between 119th Street and 127th Street? MR. O'HARA: For what period? MR. DANIEL: D uring, let's say, peak times. MR. O'HARA: Yes, we have. MR. DANIEL: And do you have that figure? MR. O'HARA: Yes, I do. MR. DANIEL: We don't have the report, so what I would like to do is match up your numbers with some of t he numbers that the village obtained. (Discussion off the record.) MR. DANIEL: Okay. Now, earlier you testified as to the peak hour. And I would like you to describe that a little bit for the residents and identify the peak hour on weekdays and t he peak hour on perhaps Saturdays, if you went that far. MR. O'HARA: Just for the record and -- and to answer your question, we are not looking at a 24 -hour average daily traffic volumes. What we were looking at is the peak hour during the weekday .
In fact, we looked at two time periods. It was the a.m. peak hour -- that's when people are traveling to and from work -- and the p.m. peak hour, when most of the people are on the system going from work back to home. And that normally occ urs within a two -hour period, from 6:00 in the morning to 8:00 in the morning and normally from 4:00 to 6:00 in the afternoon. That obviously could be 4:30 to 6:30, but it's usually a two -hour window. MR. DANIEL: And in relation to those peak time s, I've got a few follow -up questions. Were those any different than the peak times you calculated for the Meijer store in Lisle, Illinois, where you provided the expert testimony? MR. O'HARA: He's leading up to his firm's... The peak hours occur at pretty much the same. It's within a one -hour time frame. MR. DANIEL: In relation to this particular study, did you go as far north as the exit from Heritage Meadows subdivision to determine the traffic impacts or determine any traf fic counts in that subdivision? MR. O'HARA: No, we did not. MR. DANIEL: In relation to the traffic that you mentioned that might exit in other directions around the Wal -Mart site, from Heritage Meadows or from other portions of the subdivis ions to the south and even further east before the Wal -Mart site, did you study existing cut -through traffic patterns of any kind or were you able to draw any data from other reports? MR. O'HARA: Relative to cut -through traffic, the road system cur rently does not allow that to occur from this area. 127th Street is absolutely closed. And for reasons of this development, you will have traffic exiting Wal -Mart and going into the subdivision because it will be residents of that subdivision. Relative to shortcutting, if you're speaking of the individual that talked about Van Dyke Road, obviously as development occurs, there are north -south roads, there are east -west roads. People that are driving from one point to another will take the sho rtest route and they have a tendency of trying to find the shortest route. It may be that it's in time that -- you're actually going a mile out of your way, but timewise you're breaking even and people will do that. MR. DANIEL: So you could not st udy the -- any cut -through or shortcutting traffic under these circumstances; right? MR. O'HARA: To my understanding, it was never identified as an issue. MR. DANIEL: Well, the problem in this situation -- and I'm going to try to find my no tes here. I think you said that avoidance and cut -through traffic was not an unusual condition. I've got a box here in my notes. And I guess the concern is that here you don't have an opportunity to study cut -through traffic. In this circum stance, when you don't study cut -through traffic and you've been asked before to go back and take an analysis of cut -through traffic before the development is approved? MR. O'HARA: He knows we have in Lisle. Yes. MR. DANIEL: And that's hap pened in other communities other than this Meijer project in Lisle. Remember, I was not at the public hearing there.
MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Under the circumstances in this review that you have performed, do you have any average daily traffic counts? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: So the particular analysis that you have done only relates to that time period during the peak hours and not the time period, let's say, between 10:00 a.m. and noon? MR. O'HARA: Tha t's correct, but let me clarify something. The importance is that when you have 24 -hour traffic volumes, they may be 10,000 vehicles, they may be 20,000, they could be 50,000, they could be 60,000 vehicles. When we're evaluating a subject sit e, we're looking at the peak hour, for the highest hour that occurs during the given time frame of the day. If we can handle the peak hour, which we know from history normally occurs between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00, then the other 23 hours are g oing to be lower; and if the highest hour functions at an acceptable level of service, the other 23 hours are going to be even better. MR. DANIEL: With respect to the other 23 hours in a commercial area, if you designated peak hours including -- as in including rush hour, how much better is it going to be if you haven't done an analysis in this particular situation with a commercial center as large as this Wal -Mart? MR. O'HARA: Could you restate that so I -- I better understand it? MR . DANIEL: How much better during the 23 -hour period is it going to be? MR. O'HARA: Well, since the peak hour operates at a Level of Service C at a signalized intersection, we would say that it's going to be C or better. Going from Level of Service C, the report card, as you all remember, is going to go towards the Level of Service B or to an A, or it could remain a C but there will be less delay per vehicle. MR. DANIEL: Did Wal -Mart provide you any information about the timing of its customer visits during a given day? MR. O'HARA: No. But that data is readily available and data has been collected in the past on the hourly fluctuations of retail traffic. Retail traffic -- if you want to mark it down, it's in the ITE han dbook, the Trip Generation Handbook. I will even loan it to you. MR. DANIEL: Is there a chance you could loan the study to us as well? MR. O'HARA: If it was mine to loan, I would but you have to ask right over here. (Indicating.) M R. DANIEL: Mr. Chairman, at this time, I would like to make a point. I had mentioned a couple of things -- I'm not going to have any more questions for Mr. O'Hara tonight. I notice the time is 9:05. I have a lot of data that I have in the few reports here, in Mr. O'Hara's report which we have not reviewed and the reports done for Pulte that we have not reviewed and the reports related to Target which we have not reviewed. We're at a significant disadvantage. In some correspondence e arlier this week, I learned from the Village Administrator that Mr. Philipchuck would make certain witnesses available at a later date. The last two witnesses have been two of those witnesses because there is significant data that we
cannot investigate, e valuate, present evidence on without reviewing it. And that includes through the cross -examination. So I would like to ask that Mr. Philipchuck bring these two witnesses back once we have the opportunity to review these reports as Mr. Burghard me ntioned. I know staff at the Village has been working very hard and particularly at the clerk's office and the zoning department, and I do want to thank them publicly; but we just don't have the information and the records that we need to proceed to day. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Mr. Philipchuck. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I have a question for Mr. Daniel as to whether or not you picked up the information that you requested that was waiting for you at the Village since last Wednesday. MR. DANI EL: Our paralegal, Mr. Philipchuck -- and I'm not going to get into a public argument with you. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I asked you a question. MR. DANIEL: For the record -- MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I asked you a question. I have average d aily traffic counts. These are peak hour traffic counts. This Commission has a significant problem with traffic and I'm hoping to analyze it in some efficient manner for you. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: The Plan Commission does not have control over bring ing witnesses back. Are you asking for a continuance? MR. DANIEL: In fact we did ask for a continuance. We did not want to have a situation where an architect had to return. In fact, you will recall that last week I specifically shor tened my questioning of this architect so she wouldn't have to come back from Arkansas. We are trying to work with you when we can. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Do you have a response for the -- for a continuance, Mr. Philipchuck? MR. PHILIPCH UCK: Well, I believe we are scheduled for a continued hearing tomorrow evening. Will you be prepared to go forward tomorrow evening? MR. DANIEL: I think that in part depends on whether Mr. O'Hara will be prepared to discuss this origin and destination study by tomorrow evening. I don't know if he would professionally be able to do that. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I think he stated he hasn't reviewed it. I think you can cross -examine him as to the materials that he submitted. You can try to cross -examine as to materials he's never reviewed, but I think the answer is going to be a consistent no. MR. DANIEL: I think I'm entitled to ask for an answer on these questions, Mr. Chairman. If it is a consistent no, it will be short at a later date. We're going to have information to compare -- CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: How long will it take you to ask those questions? MR. DANIEL: The questions might take 45 minutes. These are significant issues, Mr. Chairman.
And I'll give you a summary -- okay? -- of the questions just so you can understand the scope of the testimony. You have a study that was prepared by an engineering firm for the Village of Plainfield dated November 10 of 2000. You have conclusions th at were drawn after that. This particular engineering firm, Civil Tech Engineering, from Itasca was paid for by the Village, not by Wal -Mart. An important factor to consider here. You have traffic volumes -- average daily traffic volumes of 41,900 trips between 127th and 119th for the year 2020, assuming no growth. No growth has a very special definition after consulting with zoning and development officials, as including things that will reduce traffic along 59: Extending I -355 down t o I -80 so I don't have to drive down 59 when I go see an Illinois basketball game. Things like that. These situations are important to review for the village because they have noted in this report to the village that there have been 207 percent inc reases in population forecasted for between now and 2020. This is something the village paid money for. You have an IDOT survey hopefully to serve a similar purpose, to control traffic on I -59 -- on Illinois 59. Okay. To compare the two is probably a very significant issue. You don't have any hard data before you other than this report and other than the report that we're referring to at IDOT. You really don't. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: How will this -- how will these numbers cause us to either accept or deny the development of a parcel? MR. DANIEL: Well, let me put it this way. If I have to buy a home, am I going to buy that home at the intersection that can't get a traffic light that is now right -in right -out becaus e of IDOT traffic controls. Take a look at 22nd Street, Cermak, in DuPage County. With development in that area, IDOT is now even proposing frontage roads, not just right -in right -out that they were using before. Take a look at cut -through t raffic which we mentioned which Mr. O'Hara, without me cross -examining him on, said, you know, cut -through traffic is an issue in all of these circumstances. The people that live up here, instead of turning left onto 59 now have to come through the subdivision when they wouldn't normally do it. Well, you know what? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven -- seven trips in the morning to work, seven trips home in the evening. Those are important issues. They affect valuation. They affect ac cess to open space, to schools, to parks. They also affect the average daily inconvenience. I got a speeding ticket; I went to traffic school. You know what? I was told to leave early if I can't predict my traffic. You can't predict traffi c north of here. It doesn't take an expert to know that. And these data -- these figures are going to help you with that. I left the office tonight at 6:15 -- I'm sorry, 5:45, took a stop at 6:15 and I finally made it down here at one minute 'til 7 :00. And you know what? There was an accident in Naperville that delayed me 10 minutes. Other than that, it was an hour -long trip because I was backed up from that railroad bridge past the shopping areas on Ogden. Unpredictable. I have cruised here in 25 minutes sometimes.
CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Let me get back to the first question. When will you be able -- when do you foresee being able to examine this data that you're talking about? MR. DANIEL: I learned today for the fir st time that they could certify the Village records were complete. We have coordinated tomorrow pick -up of the records that I need. I should be able to do this next week; or if you were to have a hearing Thursday night, Thursday night. Tomor row night I can't do it. It's 9:00 o'clock right now. I've got other things that are on the plate. I apologize for that, but this is important information. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Mr. Philipchuck, do you have any objection to a request for a continu ation? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Well, Mr. Chairman, we have another witness who is here with us this evening, if we go beyond this to get that testimony. Otherwise I have two witnesses for tomorrow evening if we don't get to them tonight. And I don 't know what the Plan Commission's thoughts were beyond -- I know we have a meeting scheduled for tomorrow night. I don't know what you have planned beyond that. So we would have to know what the date is because I can't say I'll have these witnesse s available on a specific date until we know what the date is, obviously. They do have a large caseload. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Staff, have you made any contingency plans for dates subsequent to tomorrow night? MR. CARROLL: Not yet. CH AIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: All right. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: Can I ask a question? Is there any place that we could have other than here where we have just two hours to listen to this, that we could have and bring more people before us and do it durin g a longer period of time? Because it seems like we're going two hours and then we don't have enough; we have to bring people back. I prefer, if possible, we sit down and go through this and bring people in for questioning. And the same way for the public, you're bringing the people back and forth. So if there would be a potential of doing that, if this is going to be postponed, I think it would be to everybody's advantage. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I don't think that Mr. Daniel -- I'm speak ing for him -- is opposed to continuing tomorrow evening, moving forward tomorrow evening. He would just like the ability to bring, is it, Mr. Hovany and Mr. O'Hara back at another meeting. But obviously to fit their schedules, we would need to kn ow what the next meeting would be beyond tomorrow evening. I don't disagree with you. If we could get another location where we could spend more at this and get it finished, that would be preferable. COMMISSIONER KACHEL: It just seems like all these two -hour meetings, it's not enough time for what's being brought before us. MR. DANIEL: If there were a circumstance where there was some more time granted between now and the next time Mr. O'Hara testifies, I think he could provide some testimony to the Village that will be instructive on certain issues.
I don't know whether it will be helpful to the objectors or to Wal -Mart, but the average daily traffic counts are something the village has relied on and just coordinating those fi gures would be tremendously helpful. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Okay. I'll tell you what. You submit a formal request in writing for a continuance beyond tomorrow evening; and in that letter, please note the times and dates that you will be available or not available so that staff can arrange for a meeting location. (Discussion off the record.) MR. DANIEL: I guess now that we're back on the record, to make things perfectly clear, we don't want to obstruct the process or stop tomorrow night. That's the first point. The next point is I can make it into Plainfield virtually any night in December as long as it's not Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve or the day Illinois is playing a ball game. With that said, I think my request for a contin uance in writing was submitted to Mr. Burghard. I received a response from him -- I'm not sure if it's accurate or not -- saying that there wouldn't be an objection from Mr. Philipchuck to bringing these people back. Of course it's a timing issue. So i f we talk about that at the conclusion of the next hearing, that will be terrific. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Okay. At tomorrow night's meeting, we will make an announcement -- if we have made arrangements, we will make -- we will notify the public and t he two groups of attorneys. If we have not made an arrangement, we will make arrangements to contact you for when the continued meeting will be held. We will probably have to have advertise it then. If you don't -- if I'm not able to announ ce it at the meeting tomorrow night, we will probably have to advertise it. MR. WARD: Post it. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: At this time of the year, it's getting tough. (Discussion off the record.) MR. DANIEL: Just for the Commissioners' kn owledge, we're trying to figure out how I can continue with Mr. O'Hara tomorrow night. There are a few reports that we're trying to coordinate delivery of and to avoid this problem, hopefully we can carry through with Mr. O'Hara tomorrow night. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Well, it will be a full night because I believe Mr. Philipchuck has three other presenters. (Discussion off the record.) MR. DANIEL: Okay. I think we will continue with Mr. O'Hara tomorrow and we'll see what we can do unde r those circumstances, and then we'll pick up the rest of the documentation at the Village. It may take a little bit longer, but it will avoid some of the incongruity of what we were just talking about. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: If we do need to continu e presentations and arguments beyond tomorrow evening, the arrangements for that are kind of vague at this point. What we will wind up doing, I'm sure, is having to readvertise, so... MR. FRANKEN: We can assist in disseminating that information, t oo. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Excuse me? MR. FRANKEN: We can assist in disseminating that information.
CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Well, it's a legal thing. MR. FRANKEN: Okay. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: If I can announce at a meeting tha t we are being continued, that's legal. If I can't, in order to show the State that we have complied with the Open Meetings Act, we need to advertise in a publication having the circulation of over 3,000 10 days ahead of time. So it becomes a legal hurdle that we have no control over. At any rate, I will make an announcement one way or the other tomorrow night. We don't have time for any other testimony or presenters tonight. If there were people in the audience who wanted to ma ke an additional comment, we hope to have time tomorrow night. I think everyone -- everyone that wanted to make a comment or ask a question of the three presenters that we did here had an opportunity to do so. The Chair right now needs a moti on to continue this meeting until tomorrow night -- COMMISSIONER SCHINDERLE: So moved. CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: -- at 7:00 o'clock at this location. COMMISSIONER SCHINDERLE: I so move. COMMISSIONER MANNING: Second. CHAIRMA N SOBKOVIAK: The motion has been made and seconded to continue the special meeting for the Wal -Mart special use, zoning, and site plan review meeting until tomorrow, November 28, 2001, at 7:00 o'clock at this location. By voice vote, all in favor signify by saying "aye." (Ayes heard.) CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: Nay? (No response.) CHAIRMAN SOBKOVIAK: The motion is carried. This meeting is continued until tomorrow night at 7:00 o'clock at this location. * * * * * STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. COUNTY OF K A N E ) I, Amy K. Bateman, CSR No. 84 -003803, RPR, do hereby certify that I reported in shorthand the proceedings had at the hearing of the above -e ntitled cause and that the foregoing Report of Proceedings, Pages 1 through 119 inclusive, is a true, correct, and complete transcript of my shorthand notes so taken at the time and place aforesaid. I further certify that I am not counsel for nor in any way related to any of the parties to this suit, nor am I in any way, directly or indirectly, interested in the outcome thereof. This certification applies only to those transcripts, original and copies, produced under my direction and control; and I assume no responsibility for the accuracy of any copies which are not so produced. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand this 2nd day of December, 2001. Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 84 -003803