HomeMy Public PortalAbout2001-12-04 PC minutes WalmartSTATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS: COUNTY OF W I L L ) BEFORE THE PLAINFIELD PLAN COMMISSION REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS taken at the hearing of the above -entitled cause before Gale L. Barma, CSR No. 84 -003807 , RPR, on December 4, 2001, at 7:00 p.m., at 530 West Lockport Street, Plainfield, Illinois. PRESENT: MR. JAMES SOBKOVIAK, Chairman; MS. MARILYN GEHRKE, Commissioner; MR. WALTER O. MANNING, Commissioner; MR. ROBERT SCHINDERLE, Commissioner; MR. DAN S EGGEBRUCH, Commissioner; MR. STEPHEN AMANN, Village Engineer; MR. DOUGLAS CARROLL, Village Planner; MR. DALE DRAYNA, Planner; MR. MICHAEL S. GARRIGAN, Planner. McKEOWN, FITZGERALD, ZOLLNER, BUCK, HUTCHINSON & RUTTLE, by MR. JAMES B. HARVEY 2455 G lenwood Avenue Joliet, Illinois 60435 (815) 729 -4800 Appeared on behalf of the Village; DOMMERMUTH, BRESTAL, COBINE & WEST, LTD., By MR. JOHN F. PHILIPCHUCK 123 Water Street Naperville, Illinois 60566 (630) 355 -5800 Appeared on behalf of Wal -Mart; RATHJE, WOODWARD, DYER & BURT, by MR. MARK W. DANIEL 300 East Roosevelt Suite 300 Wheaton, Illinois 60187 (630) 668 -8500 Appeared on behalf of Individuals of Citizens Against Rezoning. ALSO PRESENT: MR. BRIAN HOMANS, Shiner & Associat es
MR. DALE KLESZYNSKI, Associated Property Councilors, Ltd. MR. DONALD O'HARA, Kenig, Lindgren, O'Hara, Aboona, Inc. - - - (WHEREUPON proceedings were had which were not transcribed at this time.) MR. CHAIRMAN: The Plan Commission is back in session. This is a continuation of the public hearing for rezoning, special use, and site plan review for Case No. 904 dash 083101 dot S, Sam, P, Paul, R, Raymond, slash, Z, Zebra, slash, S, Sam, U, union . Is there anyone here tonight who will be making a statement who has not been sworn in at a previous meeting? I need to swear in all people who will be making statements at the meeting tonight. You're the only one, sir? Is there anyone else -- if there's a remote possibly of you making a statement before us tonight, please stand, if you have not been sworn in previously. Please raise your right hands. (Witnesses and/or audience members sworn.) MR. CHAIRMAN: And t hose who have been sworn in before, please be advised that you remain under oath. Staff, do I need to go right into -- MR. CARROLL: Go right into it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Philipchuck, please proceed. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: If I may, I'll just speak from this location. At the last meeting, the Plan Commission asked a couple of our expert witnesses to go back and do a little additional research. Unfortunately, I don't see Mr. Kachel here this evening. But he had requested that we have our sound engineer, Mr. Brian Homans, do some sound readings between the houses in the existing Heritage Meadows subdivision. So at this time, if it's the pleasure of the Plan Commission, I'd like to have Mr. Brian Homans with Shiner & Asso ciates, our sound engineer, explain the additional findings that he took when he went back out and visited the location. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Before he starts, Staff, could you turn off this projector. Please proceed. MR. MANNING : Mr. Homans, I need a little perspective on this. I want to know what problem we're addressing. MR. HOMANS: Yes. I was requested to look at the effective shielding of houses in the Heritage Meadows subdivision, and this would be from road traffi c noise and Illinois 59. MR. MANNING: And the issue was what? MR. HOMANS: This was comparing the shielding affected by homes in a subdivision as compared to a building such as a Wal -Mart building.
MR. MANNING: Thank you. MR. HOMANS : To give you a little perspective or orientation, I'll put the site plan up again for a few seconds and orient you to the proposed Wal -Mart store again. I had previously taken measurements at the end of Bob White Lane. And for purposes of this exe rcise, on late Friday night, Friday afternoon, I did set up a monitor on the east side of Bob White Lane about a public sidewalk, another monitor at the intersection of Bob White, Falcon, and Prairie Crossing, I believe the name of this street is, a monit or here (indicating), which is located at the northeast corner at that intersection, then another monitor more to the north still on the east side of Bob White Lane between houses. The purpose of this exercise was to look at the noise that would be r eceived from Illinois 59, which is the chief source of noise. I had a microphone where you had a clear field to the south, a location here at the intersection where 59 was partially obscured by a few homes but you still had a good view down the street to the east, at another location further to the north, which was pretty much surrounded by homes and had a very obstructed view of Illinois 59. You could still see 59 through the houses, but it was a narrow slab between the homes. And I apologize for not having color this evening, but this is a graph of a sound level versus time, A -weighted sound level versus time. Along the X axis is time, going from 1640 which is 4:40 p.m. last Friday evening for an hour until 5:40 p.m. . Along the Y axi s is sound level, sound pressure level, A -weighted. And we have three -- I've shown the three measurement locations on this graph. The solid line being at the end of Bob White Lane at the south end, the darker dash lines being between the homes, and thi s is between 12429 and 12435 Bob White Lane. And the third location was the intermediate location. These are the white dashed lines at the intersection of Bob White Lane and Falcon which is also Prairie Grove. What I noticed during this period, as I've annotated on this graph, is that we had a lot of occurrences on the street, car pass -bys, a neighbor putting up Christmas lights with his ladder, mail deliveries, and things like that. If you look at the energy average sound level over an hour p eriod, we'll see that the readings are very similar. 52 dBA at the south end of -- south of Bob White Lane. This is consistent with my previous measurements, 24 -hour measurements. Between the homes, a reading of 50 dBA, and at the intersection also a reading of 50 dBA. When you take away all the spikes, as I've done here (indicating), and I've just simply taken these spikes for the two residential locations and compressed the -- or taken out the blank spaces so that I would calculate the energy, what we find here is that without the presence of road traffic noise between the two homes, we're at 46 dBA which is a difference of 6 dB from the end of Bob White Lane to the interior where the homes are located. And also approximately, let's say, I'm r eading a 46 dBA at the intersection of Bob White Lane. This shows that the homes are not very good noise barriers as far as the noise from Illinois 59 is concerned. And I guess in summary, what I'd like to point out is that for the proposed Wal -Mart location, we're talking about a berm with the addition of a fence on top of it which would further attenuate noise. We would also have the solid mass of a building which would be a greater -- offer greater shielding to residents in back. And withou t the neighborhood
noises, it's my opinion that sound levels would be less with the Wal -Mart homes in the rear yards of these homes than without it. Does anyone have any questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Daniel. MR. DANIEL: Yes. Mr. Homans, why did you pick that particular hour to do your analysis? MR. HOMANS: It's the earliest I could get there. MR. DANIEL: And it's your understanding that rush hour on a Friday is usually a pretty busy time for traffic on 59? MR. HOM ANS: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So your measurements would be rather elevated compared to other times during the week, even with the rush hours during the week, right? MR. HOMANS: That's right. However, we are showing relative differences be tween the microphone positions. So for purposes of our measurements, we did have a good signal or a lot of noise which is measurable coming from 59. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Can we take a look at the page just before this one with the spikes. MR. HO MANS: Certainly. MR. DANIEL: With respect to the items that don't identify it as street, for example, you have car on Falcon located just above your 5:18 p.m. on the X axis. That was a car on Falcon. What about the cars on other locations where t here was noise but there's no notation as to the location of the car? MR. HOMANS: Those were on Bob White Lane. MR. DANIEL: So -- MR. HOMANS: There were very few cars on the -- on Falcon or, slash, Prairie Grove. MR. DANIEL: And t he ladder is from within the subdivision, right? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: As is the mail truck? MR. HOMANS: That's right. MR. DANIEL: Now, what you did with your next graph is you took out the spikes which were cause d by the noises in the residential area, right? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: But that still contributed to an elevation at those certain times, for example, 5:18, or did you just completely eliminate that particular noise from your a nalysis? MR. HOMANS: I took that out, just erased it out. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Then with respect to these particular points where you see the increases in noise, how is it that you understand those came from Route 59? MR. HOMANS: Based on t he fact that I was sitting there during the entire period and those were my observations. MR. DANIEL: So you were sitting inside the subdivision and you saw no activity around you, kids or anything like that, when these little peaks were reached ? MR. HOMANS: That's right. It was a rather raw night. It was sort of cold, and I was walking up and down the street during the entire period or most of the entire period.
MR. DANIEL: Okay. In your professional opinion, what do you think these e levations -- these levels would be on a Saturday morning at, say, 10:00 o'clock? MR. HOMANS: Oh, I would have to ask you several questions. I guess during what season of the year? MR. DANIEL: Why don't we clarify whatever you have to just so we're clear for everybody and we can cut to the chase. MR. HOMANS: Well, I'm thinking that there weren't many people out during this period, and certainly the levels in the subdivision would be higher from people and children. MR. DANIEL: Okay . What about an analysis of what Wal -Mart's plans are. For example, earlier, there was another hearing tonight where there was testimony regarding a street sweeper at midnight in a parking lot of a Walgreens, I believe. That street sweeper, you wou ldn't normally have there. Do you think that if you have an analysis of midnight, that these levels would be anywhere near where they're at now? MR. HOMANS: No. Certainly road traffic from Illinois 59 would be less. In fact, I have a summary of my last study here. There is a 24 -hour period on this graph starting at 1:00 p.m. and running to 1:00 p.m. the next day. So at midnight, as I've mentioned before, the lowest level would be about 37 dBA. On an average period, on an average basi s for that hour starting at midnight, it would be approximately 40 dBA. MR. DANIEL: I'm going to sit down just so the Commission can see what he's talking about. I think I was obstructing the view. With respect to your measurements that say 1:00 a.m. on this particular graph, would that account for any trains passing at night, say, hourly? MR. HOMANS: I can't answer that. MR. DANIEL: How does the average work though? Does it account for loud noises from the train tracks that's abou t two miles to the left that's unobstructed? MR. HOMANS: Yes, it would, if there were trains during that period. MR. DANIEL: That's included in these measurements if there were trains on November 26th and 27th? MR. HOMANS: That's correct . MR. DANIEL: Have you done any kind of analysis as to the impact of the anticipated development to the west with single -family homes and its impact on buffering that noise from the trains? MR. HOMANS: No, I have not. MR. DANIEL: With res pect to the particular traffic on Illinois Route 59, you admit, don't you, that the traffic at rush hour is much more enhanced or busy than it is during other hours of the day, right? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. And in the future, as traffic picks u p on Illinois 59, it will get greater still. MR. DANIEL: Did you have a chance to visit a Wal -Mart store since the last meeting, say, the Glen Ellyn store or any other stores to determine when their major hours of operations were when they did their cleaning operations, when the trucks came, any aspects of that to help contribute to your analysis as to the impact of sound on the surrounding homes in this particular area during hours other than the rush hour?
MR. HOMANS: No, I haven't. I can onl y speak from my experience at the Darien store. And they had surface deliveries consisting of chips and pop and very sundry items like that occurring during the day. It's my understanding that the drivers do not deliver these items at night. MR. DAN IEL: What about the impact of the increased traffic surrounding the Darien store during different times of day, did you study the volume of traffic during nonrush -hour periods at the Darien store? MR. HOMANS: No, I did not. MR. DANIEL: What ab out the volume of traffic on a Saturday morning, for example? MR. HOMANS: No, I did not. MR. DANIEL: When you were taking these readings on November 26th and 27th, you studied the a.m. noise levels, do you recall what day of the week November 26th and 27th was? MR. HOMANS: Monday and Tuesday. MR. DANIEL: Would you expect the sound levels on a weekday during those periods to be equal to, greater than, or less than what you'd have on a weekend? MR. HOMANS: I really can't say fo r sure. I'm not familiar with the road traffic or the mix on Illinois 59. We'll have to ask our traffic expert. MR. DANIEL: You mentioned that you don't think the homes are a good buffer for sound. Earlier, I believe, the last time you testified, you said the same thing. You would expect given your observations of the Darien store, wouldn't you, that there would be more traffic on Route 59 on a Saturday morning given the addition of this Wal -Mart store? MR. HOMANS: There could be. There's a lso a Target store proposed to the south which is being constructed. MR. DANIEL: All right. But you've heard testimony before or at least reviewed the traffic analysis that was done in this situation? MR. HOMANS: No, I have not. MR. DANIE L: When was Wal -Mart's busiest time of the day on the weekends? MR. HOMANS: I don't know that. I can't answer. MR. DANIEL: What, to your knowledge, was the impact of the construction of the Target store in your analysis? MR. HOMANS: The re would be no impact or very little. Certainly, 127th Street is closed at this point. MR. DANIEL: Well, I've got a witness that will testify, and I'll help you out with that, that there's a train two miles to the west and that there's currently a field that's unobstructed and he can hear that train and it wakes him up at night sometimes on occasion. He'll also testify that the construction at the Target store can be heard across the proposed Wal -Mart site. During your sound readings here, I would anticipate if he can hear it on Bob White Lane or near Bob White Lane that your analysis here would have picked it up. Would that be an accurate statement? MR. HOMANS: It could have. However, when I was there, I did not observe heavy construc tion at the Target store. MR. DANIEL: Did you hear any construction when you were there?
MR. HOMANS: No, I didn't. MR. DANIEL: Did you hear any construction on the ongoing operations at the Pasquinelli and Pulte subdivisions that are unde r development? MR. HOMANS: No. MR. DANIEL: Did you hear any construction from the additional roadway improvements to the west of 59 near Van Dyke? MR. HOMANS: Not when I was there, no. MR. DANIEL: How long were you there during this time period, this -- what is it, about 24 hours? MR. HOMANS: Roughly four to five hours. MR. DANIEL: And during what time period in this 24 -hour span were you there? MR. HOMANS: I was there at the beginning and at the ends of the study . MR. DANIEL: For about two and a half hours each time? MR. HOMANS: Roughly, yes. MR. DANIEL: When you were at the Darien store, did you observe that the volumes of traffic in the Darien area were about, say, 700 cars entering and exiting the lot every peak hour during the busiest times at the Darien store? MR. HOMANS: For the purposes of my study, I was in the rear of the store. MR. DANIEL: Did you study any of the stacking of the cars along the homes so that you could analyze the situation at the Darien store and bring it to form any kind of opinion tonight on this issue? MR. HOMANS: I don't understand stacking of stores -- stacking of cars. MR. DANIEL: When cars are decelerating and accelerating possibly in a turn lane or actually on the roadway waiting to get into a turn lane to pull into the Wal -Mart store in Darien, that's what I'm referring to as stacking. MR. HOMANS: Again, I did not study that. I was in the back of the store away from 75th Street. MR. DANIEL: So you don't really have any opinion tonight as to the impact of the enhanced traffic on 59 as a result of this Wal -Mart development on the homes along Bob White and in that subdivision to the north or homes in the other areas for that matte r? MR. HOMANS: No, I don't. I haven't studied that. MR. DANIEL: During any period of the week, you haven't studied that at all? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: I don't think I have any further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone in the audience who would like to have a question of this expert witness? Yes, sir, would you state your name, please. MR. ONUSAITIS: Dan Onusaitis, O -n -u -s -a -i -t -i -s. How -- I'm just curious as to how the sound measureme nts you have now could be relevant to a traffic study for the noise that could result from the Wal -Mart being there when 127th is closed and Route 59 is under construction right now and has minimal traffic as comparison to what it's going to be after IDOT completes it. MR. HOMANS: This is the only time I had available for measurement of sound levels in the area. MR. ONUSAITIS: Is there another comparison, maybe another road that would have a comparative traffic -- amount of traffic close to a s ubdivision that you could use as an
example since we don't really have real -world things to work with right now? Because I'm trying to find out what the relevance of your whole study really is. MR. HOMANS: Well -- MR. ONUSAITIS: I mean, you s aid it was a dead time, there wasn't really a lot going on. And then you could repeat me -- or repeat your statement as to what you said about how you thought that the sound levels would be lower with the Wal -Mart. MR. HOMANS: That's correct. MR. ONUSAITIS: Could you clarify on that. MR. HOMANS: In back of the Wal -Mart store to the west, sound levels would tend to be lower than with an empty field here or with homes because of the sheer bulk of the mass of the Wal -Mart store and also bec ause of the proposed berm and the fence on top of it which relaxes the sound barrier. MR. ONUSAITIS: But that's based on the current conditions of Route 59 and 127th and the patterns that were occurring at the time, correct? MR. HOMANS: That i s correct. However, you would still see the same incremental decrease. MR. ONUSAITIS: Wouldn't it be true though that you'd have -- if the Wal -Mart is there, you would have increased amount of traffic and noise that's not present in your study that we're not even considering? MR. HOMANS: You would. But this traffic -- this traffic, the cars in the parking lot or whatever would be -- at the front of the store would be shielded by the store to the homes to the west. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, m a'am. MS. GABRYSZEWSKI: Heather Gabryszewski, G -a -b -r -y -s -z -e -w -s -k -i. I have a question. On the corner of Bob White Lane, was anything given for the fact that the woman on the end called the police because she thought it was a bomb and they ha d four squad cars coming back and forth because she saw a man drop it off with sunglasses and she thought it was a bomb because nobody stayed with the box so she called the police and they kept coming back and forth and back and forth and back and forth? MR. HOMANS: No. I did not see any squad cars. MS. GABRYSZEWSKI: I didn't know if you were there. It was hooked up, and they said it was a microphone, an object with a microphone. MR. HOMANS: Was this last Friday night? MS. GABRYSZE WSKI: No. It was in the afternoon on Friday. That's what I was wondering what time or if any consideration was given to that? MR. HOMANS: I started my study about 4:40 p.m. and set up a little earlier. MS. GABRYSZEWSKI: Okay. It was set up earlier, that's when it was then. I guess that's my question. MR. HOMANS: A few minutes earlier. It was after dark, and I would not have had sunglasses on. That's all I can answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: State your name. MR. TRUPPA: Tony Trup pa, 11326 Marathon Lane. You located your recording device at Bob White Lane, the corner of Bob White Lane, is that true? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. At the south end of Bob White Lane.
MR. TRUPPA: Is that street further to the west of 59 or is it closer to Route 59? MR. HOMANS: It's actually about right in the middle of the proposed development. If I can indicate here (indicating), here's Illinois 59 on the right -hand side, here's Bob White Lane (indicating). My three micropho ne positions were located along Bob White Lane. MR. TRUPPA: Is there any relationship to where those microphones were pointed? For example, if they're pointed in a north/south fashion, would you get one recording volume level -- one volume level re cording versus if they were oriented east and west? MR. HOMANS: No, you wouldn't. In the United States we use omni -directional microphones for sound measurements. And so it's independent of which way the microphone is directed, the sound level is a bout the same. MR. TRUPPA: Thanks. MR. HARDEN: I have a question. David Harden, H -a -r -d -e -n. In any of your studies, are you checking as a vehicle is accelerating into a location, a truck in first gear going through? It's a lot louder th an a car, and as you go past the first set of lots right there, it's only 41 feet away from somebody's property line. And I'm just wondering how much louder it's going to be versus a car or a car with a bad muffler. MR. HOMANS: I did investigate du ring my study at Darien various trucks that were delivering goods to the back of the Wal -Mart store in Darien, and the trucks were accelerating. There were truck pass -bys. There was one truck in particular which I used that was going to the Home Depot at the end, and it was quite loud and I factored this into my analysis. MR. HARDEN: On this here (indicating)? MR. HOMANS: No. During the previous analysis that I talked about last time at the last meeting. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? Yes, sir. MR. WEIFFENBACH: Bob Weiffenbach, 13154 Thomas Circle, W -e -i -f -f -e -n -b -a -c -h. I believe you said earlier that you started the study of about 4:30 on the 26th and concluded it 24 hours later. Is that correct? MR. HOMANS: Thi s is the 24 -hour study you're speaking of? MR. WEIFFENBACH: Yeah. MR. HOMANS: Actually, I started using the data at 1:00 p.m. i set up before then. Versus a car or a car with a bad muffler. MR. HOMANS: I did investigate during my s tudy at Darien various trucks that were delivering goods to the back of the Wal -Mart store in Darien, and the trucks were accelerating. There were truck pass -bys. There was one truck in particular which I used that was going to the Home Depot at the end, and it was quite loud and I factored this into my analysis. MR. HARDEN: On this here (indicating)? MR. HOMANS: No. During the previous analysis that I talked about last time at the last meeting. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? Yes, sir .
MR. WEIFFENBACH: Bob Weiffenbach, 13154 Thomas Circle, W -e -i -f -f -e -n -b -a -c -h. I believe you said earlier that you started the study of about 4:30 on the 26th and concluded it 24 hours later. Is that correct? MR. HOMANS: This is the 24 -hour study you're speaking of? MR. WEIFFENBACH: Yeah. MR. HOMANS: Actually, I started using the data at 1:00 p.m. i set up before then. MR. WEIFFENBACH: On the 26th of November ? MR. HOMANS: That's correct, yes. MR. WEIFFE NBACH: So that would have been 1:30 p.m. on Monday going through about the same time on Tuesday? MR. HOMANS: That's correct. MR. WEIFFENBACH: I think you further stated later on that there was no specific construction going on at that time? MR. HOMANS: That is my recollection from my observations of the two periods. MR. WEIFFENBACH: For the record, I live just south of that on the east side of Route 59 in Graver Estates subdivision. There was an immense amount of construction goin g on on Route 59 at that time. And I am wondering just how much impact all of those road graders and crushers and things that were going on would have on this whole study and how real that would be to any normal operating day with the store. MR. HOMA NS: I will agree that there was construction on Route 59. Route 59 is a war zone right now. It's my contention that traffic will increase as well as -- the volumes will increase as well as the speeds will increase on Route 59 in the future. MR. W EIFFENBACH: I'm wondering if any part of your study addressed the kind of noise that you get from the diesel trucks bouncing off of the solid structure that's going to obscure. I would agree a lot of this noise is from 59, but bouncing that off towards t hose homes since those trucks will be between that building and those homes. MR. HOMANS: Again, we will have a berm located at the lower portion and we would have a wood fence located on the top of the berm. It's my experience that the face of the w ood berm is rather irregular and that does not directly reflect the sound back toward the building. MR. WEIFFENBACH: I think my question though is whether or not any part of your study addressed the sound of those diesel trucks going between that sto ne structure and the residential properties? MR. HOMANS: Yes. I did take measurements at the Darien Wal -Mart store. They did have a fence but no berm. They did have a solid wall at the Wal -Mart store. MR. WEIFFENBACH: Is that in the study he re? MR. HOMANS: That was in the study that I reported on last time. And that phenomenon is reflected in the measurements. MR. WEIFFENBACH: But none of it is in this study? MR. HOMANS: No. This is just an ambient study in the neighborhoo d. MR. WEIFFENBACH: Thank you. MS. PIEMONTE: Sharon Piemonte, P -i -e -m -o -n -t -e. Was it your conclusion at the last time that you testified that the Wal -Mart would not bring any more noise levels than the 70 homes would; would not affect -- the noise level would not affect us any more than 70 homes, single -family homes?
MR. HOMANS: Yes. Given the amount of road traffic or the amount of street traffic that I did observe just on a single evening, I would have to say yes. MS. PIEMO NTE: I've done a little research myself. The Bolingbrook store gets an average of 4,000 cars per day. So 4,000 cars going 40 feet behind our homes is not going to be more of a noise than 70 single -family homes in that area? And that's not even 24 hour s. MR. HOMANS: I don't understand about the 40 feet. AUDIENCE MEMBER: On the north side of the property. MS. PIEMONTE: Bolingbrook gets 4,000 cars per day at their store. And that is not even a 24 -hour store, so that's probably conserva tive. The street going right behind our homes is the street that the majority of those cars will be taking. So if I have 4,000 cars traveling 40 feet behind my home, isn't that going to be substantially more noise than it would be if those were sing le -family homes back there? MR. HOMANS: I don't understand -- I'm not familiar with the volumes at the Bolingbrook store. But I don't understand how all the cars would use a northern entrance. MS. PIEMONTE: Well, let's say half of them do, 2,000 cars. MR. HOMANS: I don't really see that many would use the northern entrance. MS. PIEMONTE: What are they going to use? MR. HOMANS: I think most of them would come in directly to the middle of the store. MS. PIEMONTE: Well, f rom my experience, just going to Fox Valley mall, I never go to the middle of Fox Valley mall. If I'm going to go there, I try to enter on the near outskirts of the mall so that it's easier to get to the store that I'm trying to get to. So my quest ion is is 2,000 cars going to cause more noise than would single -family homes in that area? MR. HOMANS: With the berm and barrier, probably not. MS. PIEMONTE: Is the berm going to be on -- is the fence going to be on the berm is another quest ion I have after the previous testimony tonight. MR. HOMANS: Yes. MS. PIEMONTE: That's all I have. MR. FRANKEN: Good evening. Hi. My name is Martin Franken, F -r -a -n -k -e -n. I for one found this fascinating. I didn't know anything about the studies at all. They're interesting. But there's one question I had. This being Bob White here (indicating). I live on this side of Bob White (indicating), the other end. And just for purposes of discussion here, I live -- I would be t he fourth row of homes away from Route 59. Now, by my personal observations, I notice a distinctly significant decrease in the level of noise at my home than I do the next street over which would be basically only separated by one home from Route 59 . And I wanted to make sure that you're telling me that those -- these homes would not buffer the noise significantly. Because I personally -- I can personally say that I noticed this hugely significant difference. MR. HOMANS: All right. I can a nswer you by saying that these are nice homes. There's a lot of space between the homes. So the homes themselves don't act as real effective noise barriers. And if you're more distant from Route 59, certainly there's more attenuation due to distance tha t takes place.
Yes. MR. LATIMER: Daniel Latimer, L -a -t -i -m -e -r. You had the microphone set up between the homes, is that correct? MR. HOMANS: That's right. MR. LATIMER: Usually, when I barbecue I tend to stay behind my home. W hat effect would your study have on my barbecuing? (Laughter heard.) MR. LATIMER: That's okay. I'll withdraw the question. MR. NETZEL: William Netzel, N -e -t -z -e -l. You said that the microphones were placed on the north side there on Bob Cat Lane? MR. HOMANS: Bob White Lane, yes. MR. NETZEL: Where were the cars when the spikes were occurring? MR. HOMANS: The majority of the cars passing by were on Bob White Lane. There were just a few on the east/west cross street. MR. NETZEL: So the spikes -- I mean, the parking lot is pretty close to that as far as relationship to the street. Were you splitting the distance of the microphone basically from the street to the parking lot where it's proposed? MR. HOMANS: That was not my intention. MR. NETZEL: In other words, would the same spike occur from the parking lot, maybe a little bit less with the berm as it would on the street? MR. HOMANS: No, sir. Because the cars on Bob White Lane were much close r. That's why I chose to eliminate them from my analysis. Also, you'll recall that we will have a berm and a fence separating Bob White Lane and the residents of Heritage Meadows from the Wal -Mart store. MR. NETZEL: Now, I live down in Kensing ton Club down there. What kind of protection do you have down there as far as the south entrance because it doesn't look like people are going to be able to drive over a berm. MR. HOMANS: You live in Kensington Club? MR. NETZEL: Yes. Are you going to do some noise samples down there, too, I guess? MR. HOMANS: No. I have not studied that. Any other questions? MR. ONUSAITIS: Do you work for Wal -Mart or are you working with an independent company? MR. HOMANS: I work wi th an independent company, Shiner & Associates, Incorporated. We were hired by Manhard Consulting who in turn works for Wal -Mart. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Next, I'd like to -- I believe Mark -- Mr. Daniels wanted to bring b ack Mr. Don O'Hara, our traffic consultant. He had some further cross -examination of Mr. O'Hara. MR. O'HARA: Good evening. My name is Don O'Hara. I am a principal at KLOA, and I presented before you. And I believe I'm here for cross -examinatio n. MR. DANIEL: Again, I should introduce myself, for the record, also. Mark Daniel of Rathje and Woodward in Wheaton, Illinois, 300 East Roosevelt Road, Suite 300. One thing that I should note for the record is that I've been noted in the tran scripts as an attorney for the Heritage Meadows Homeowners Association, apparently, and that
should be stricken. The clients range from Heritage Meadows to other subdivisions in the area, also. With that clarification, I should proceed. MR. CH AIRMAN: Excuse me. Has the group that has retained your services, do they have a name? Are they incorporated as a not -for -profit entity? MR. DANIEL: There is a not -for -profit entity that's been formed. And they're working on their current organ izational status now as to fund -raising and items like that. I am not sure what the status is. We aren't serving as a corporate attorney for them. With respect to Mr. O'Hara's testimony, there are a couple of clarifications as a result of inability to review some of the items that he was relying on. I guess what I should start out with is the IDS analysis from the Illinois Department of Transportation. And what I'll do is I will tender a copy of what has previously been marked as Exhibit No. 24 in a stapled collection of papers. Mr. O'Hara, if you could, let me know if the IDS study that I've just tendered to you is the study that you relied on. MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So this is the study -- I'll take you thr ough a couple portions of it. First of all, in the upper left corner, it identifies the intersection as Illinois Route 59 and 127th Street, correct? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: At the time, if you could, take a look at point 5 for the, quote -unquote, elements controlling the design. Does it note in point 5 that it's a rural -type intersection? MR. O'HARA: In Item 5? MR. DANIEL: I'm sorry. Item 5. There are two sets. The second Item 5 from the top under existing conditions warrants for high -stress intersection are met for rural -type intersections. MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So at the time IDOT performed the study, would it be your opinion that they were considering this a rural intersectio n? MR. O'HARA: I don't know what they were thinking. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at the dates down in the corner for the preparation of the intersection design study. Again, this is for the same intersection of 59 and 127th Street. Do you see the date of October 7, 1992? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: And November 6, of 1992? MR. O'HARA: Correct. MR. DANIEL: Are you aware of any updates to this study since those dates? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: And this print notes in the bottom left corner February 15th of '94 -- that date really doesn't matter because there aren't any revision dates noted down below in the lower right -hand corner, correct? MR. O'HARA: I believe that would be correct. MR. DAN IEL: According to this particular study, when is the peak hour of traffic? MR. O'HARA: I don't see it listed on here. What's this, p.m. peak hour. MR. DANIEL: That's good. At least I know I'm not out in the dark alone. So that's fine. That 's the one thing we might be on the same level on.
With respect to your analyses of the different conditions, I think you testified that you've been involved in other projects in the Village of Plainfield, right? MR. O'HARA: Our firm has, yes. MR. DANIEL: Have you personally? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: And during those other projects, did you rely on the same idea of study? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: Were there traffic counts for the relevant area in this situatio n with the Wal -Mart proposal that you conducted in support of any further research that you did in the Village of Plainfield? MR. O'HARA: We did complete traffic counts during the a.m. and p.m. peak hour weekday on Illinois Route 59 and 127th Stree t for the Pulte Homes subdivision. MR. DANIEL: And did you use those traffic counts to support your conclusions and opinions here? MR. O'HARA: Partially, yes. MR. DANIEL: In what way did you use those? MR. O'HARA: In what way? MR. DANIEL: Yeah. MR. O'HARA: We've added -- we used our peak hour counts, we increased it for growth of 3 percent per year. We added in Target. We've added in Kensington, we've added in the Wal -Mart, the industrial center, et cetera. It's i n the report. MR. DANIEL: And that basically all aggregated into a 35 percent overestimation in comparison to what IDOT believed was going to take place in 1992? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. During the p.m. peak hour. MR. DANIEL: Now, I guess the question that I've got for you relates more to the 35 percent now. If you stated that you added 35 percent to the IDOT analysis, at the time the IDOT analysis was done, they considered the zoning ordinance probably in the Village of Plainfield , right? MR. O'HARA: I couldn't answer that question. MR. DANIEL: If you're preparing a study for IDOT, would you think it was advisable to consider the zoning ordinance in the comprehensive plan to determine trends of development and the need for I -59 by different types of traffic at different times of the day? MR. O'HARA: We would be following IDOT's guidelines, and it would be working with what IDOT was looking for. MR. DANIEL: You've worked with IDOT before? MR. O'HARA: Act ually no. MR. DANIEL: On no occasion? MR. O'HARA: No occasion. MR. DANIEL: So you're not really sure what their guidelines are? MR. O'HARA: Exactly. MR. DANIEL: Let's say you're doing a private traffic study. Would you consid er those aspects of local ordinance, traffic usage, the comprehensive plan statements as to what are the arterial collector on other streets in the area? MR. O'HARA: No.
MR. DANIEL: So you would not consider those. And you didn't consider those in this case? MR. O'HARA: No, we did not. MR. DANIEL: Let me get one thing out of the way because I'm holding on to an exhibit here. I've got something previously marked as Exhibit 24 that I'll tender to the reporter. If you could , just take a look at this, Mr. O'Hara, with me so I can run around and explain what this is and if you could just confirm it for me. I took the upper left -hand corner of the IDS study. I took the upper right -hand corner that has that Section 5 lan guage about the rural -type intersection, on page 2. On page 3, you can see the February '94 dates. And on page 4, you can see the revision dates, right? MR. O'HARA: Right. MR. DANIEL: Tender these to the Commission. I made copies t hat could be at least passed around or shared and I'll give one to Staff. With respect to your analyses on prior occasions, what hour of the day was the peak hour on the Pulte subdivision? MR. O'HARA: In the morning it was between 7:00 and 9:0 0. In the afternoon, between 4:00 and 6:00. MR. DANIEL: So when you studied the 790 vehicles, I believe you testified to earlier, turning into and out of the Wal -Mart store during the peak p.m. hour, that was during the two -hour period? MR. O'HARA: No. It was an hour that occurred between the 4:00 and 6:00 period. MR. DANIEL: You stated that during the other 23 hours, the traffic's got to get better? MR. O'HARA: Correct. MR. DANIEL: Do you have any idea how much better at d ifferent times of the day and what the volume increases are going to be between the end of the morning peak hour and the beginning of the afternoon peak hour? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: Do you have any analyses as to the volumes of traffic on weekends at any time? MR. O'HARA: No. Not at all. MR. DANIEL: Have you studied the volume of traffic on any other project such as a Wal -Mart or a Meijer related to weekend traffic or nonpeak hour traffic to determine the increases and inconven ience to people during nonpeak hour times? MR. O'HARA: On a Saturday we did. MR. DANIEL: And did you find an increase there. MR. O'HARA: An increase in the volume to the generator or increase in traffic on the adjacent streets? What are you speaking of? MR. DANIEL: On the main -- what project was this? MR. O'HARA: Several. MR. DANIEL: What was your most recent? MR. O'HARA: Most recent? Meijer in Rolling Meadows. MR. DANIEL: And what was the main cross stree t on Meijer? MR. O'HARA: It was Golf Road and Algonquin Road.
MR. DANIEL: Did you study the volumetric increases on those two roads? MR. O'HARA: Yes, we did. MR. DANIEL: And were there increases during, let's say, the 10:00 a.m. hou r on Saturday from the normal traffic studies that you researched? MR. O'HARA: They're higher volumes on a Saturday into the development, the Meijer store, that occurred between the hours of 11:00 and 2:00. MR. DANIEL: And then on weekdays, is it also accurate to say that you found higher volumes of traffic as a result of the Meijer store at Rolling Meadows? MR. O'HARA: The Rolling Meadow Meijer generated less traffic during the p.m. peak on the weekday than it did during the afternoon pe ak hour. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at the nonpeak hours though. Considering the nonpeak hours between the end of the a.m. and the beginning of the p.m. peak hours, did you find an increase? MR. O'HARA: On a weekday? MR. DANIEL: Yes. MR. O'HARA: The higher volume would be around 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon. MR. DANIEL: How much higher percentage wise was it at 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon than it was before the Meijer store? Are you aware of any of that data? MR. O'HARA: It wasn't the adjacent street traffic that was higher. I am speaking of the Meijer and the volume of traffic that the Meijer store would generate. The peak of a retail development occurs on a weekday around 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon. MR. DANIEL: But with that retail development, you also expect the traffic peak in the parking lot to trickle out into the surrounding streets, right? MR. O'HARA: Yes. But the volumes on the street are lower than the peak hour. MR. DANIEL: Rig ht. But I am just comparing the nonpeak hour after the Meijer to the nonpeak hour before the Meijer. Did you find an increase in those volumes during nonpeak hour periods? I am not comparing nonpeak hour to peak hour. What I'm trying to do is figure ou t the impact of this store during the daytime hours, not just rush hour. MR. O'HARA: I understand where you're trying to go with this. What I am trying to tell you is that during a given day on an hourly basis, it fluctuates from approximately 6:00 o'clock in the morning until 10:00 o'clock or 11:00 o'clock at night. And during those hours, it's a variety and it's a different percentage. However, the combination of the percentage generated by the development added to the traffic that's on the adjacent street system, the highest hourly volume is what we're evaluating. And that happens to occur during the p.m. peak hour. MR. DANIEL: But if you're a resident in the area and you're concerned about traffic, you're going to be more than ju st the rush -hour periods, right? MR. O'HARA: The traffic will be there during all operations of the particular facility. MR. DANIEL: Let's talk about the stay -at -home parent that wants to go out at 1:00 o'clock when that Wal -Mart store is going to be busiest. What kind of volume increase is she going to see at this location based on your analyses at other locations? MR. O'HARA: I don't understand what you're asking other than you're asking if I have an hourly volume for the proposed Wal -M art. I don't. I have the peak hours, and that's it. Can I get that volume? Certainly. It certainly comes right out of the Institute of Transportation Engineers Manual where it has retail developments and it has the hourly
percentage of daily trip s. It can be done. It can be calculated. But that's not something that we did in the study. MR. DANIEL: With relation to your other studies though, if you're studying a Meijer store, which Wal -Mart is one of its competitors, in this particular sit uation, would you expect your conclusions at the Meijer store in Rolling Meadows or your firm's conclusions at the Meijer store in Lisle or anywhere else to be that much different from this particular store even though you haven't taken the readings at thi s store? You can still take your readings someplace else and say it's a similar business. MR. O'HARA: What you're asking me -- are you asking me if the Wal -Mart is sitting in the middle of a desert with nothing else around it and what is that going to generate on an hourly basis versus a Meijer that's sitting in the desert with nothing else around it? MR. DANIEL: No. We're talking about a current condition. MR. O'HARA: Of course we are. What I'm going to try to tell you is that when we looked at it, we used the best available data of the adjacent street system given the peak hour with the trips generated by the subject development, and we looked at that. Did we look at any other hours? We did not. MR. DANIEL: Has anyone at the V illage ever mentioned that you might want to look at any other hours, Mr. Burghard, or anybody else? MR. O'HARA: No, they have not. MR. DANIEL: Since that 1992 study, you mentioned that you've done a few other studies. I mentioned earlier -- MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. I have to interrupt. I don't think we're going to be able to finish by tonight so I think we're going to cut it off at 11:00. Let's take a little break now. (A short break was had.) MR. DANIEL: Mr. O'Hara, last time you were here was some time ago, about a week, week and a half ago. Do you recall during that meeting that I asked you about a thoroughfare plan origin and designation study dated November 10. I previously marked this as Exhibit No. 5. I tender that to the witness. Have you seen that before? MR. O'HARA: No, sir. MR. DANIEL: Are you aware that Civiltech Engineering performs traffic studies and sometimes even bids on the same projects that your firm might bid on? MR . O'HARA: I guess that could be possible. MR. DANIEL: They're in a similar line of business, right, traffic analysis? MR. O'HARA: I believe their primary business is civil engineering. MR. DANIEL: Do you have any reason to doubt their ca pabilities as professionals in the area of traffic analysis and traffic planning? MR. O'HARA: I have no reason to doubt their capability. MR. DANIEL: Have you reviewed that study? MR. O'HARA: No, sir. MR. DANIEL: Are you aware that the Village spent roughly $95 to $100,000 on traffic analysis beginning February 2nd of 2000. MR. O'HARA: I certainly am not. MR. DANIEL: I tender a letter marked as Exhibit 28. It's to Mayor Rock and the Board of Trustees from Mr. Burghard .
Have you seen any of this in the traffic files from the Village? MR. O'HARA: No, sir. MR. DANIEL: Are you aware that the Village spent an expansive amount of time trying to determine thoroughfare use within its limits? MR. O'HARA: No, sir. MR. DANIEL: I have a document marked Exhibit 26, which is a February 8th contract between the Village of Plainfield and Civiltech Engineering, Inc. I tender No. 26 to the witness. Did you review that contract to determine the scope o f any work that any prior engineers may have done for the Village on the same issues you're testifying about today? MR. O'HARA: No, sir. MR. DANIEL: Tender No. 25 which is a November 30, 2000 letter from Mr. Burghard -- I'm sorry -- to Mr. Burghard from Civiltech Engineering. You can take a look at that. Have you seen that letter before where the Village appeared to be so interested in the traffic study that it was considering continuing it and performing more work to determine the traffic constraints within the village limits? MR. O'HARA: No. I've never seen this before. MR. DANIEL: So you wouldn't know whether there was a $100,000 study or not performed on traffic flow and patterns throughout the Village calibrated cer tain traffic volumes of the street network within the Village, would that be the same street -- MR. O'HARA: Item No. 5 says that it does, in fact -- the machine counts and turning movement counts were taken along Illinois Route 59. And this infor mation was used to aid in calibration of the model of the existing street network. It doesn't identify were these machine counts were located. It was speaking of 143rd Street, and I don't see 127th Street listed anywhere. MR. DANIEL: I don't wan t to argue with you too much about the study itself. It's a pretty thick volume. And if you have a chance to review it, and you come back, maybe we can talk about it then. The concern I've got is when it refers to street network. You said during y our testimony that there was a system that you were referring to and that at peak hour volumes, 25 to 70 percent of the volume of increased traffic in the vicinity of the Wal -Mart was already on the system. And I'm trying to clarify that a little bit. W hen you refer to the system, what are you referring to? MR. O'HARA: I was speaking to the adjacent streets, Illinois Route 59 and 127th Street. MR. DANIEL: And you still agree that 88 percent of the traffic to 95 percent of the traffic is goi ng to be on Route 59? MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir. MR. DANIEL: Now, the 25 to 70 percent -- MR. O'HARA: I believe it's 88 percent. MR. DANIEL: The 25 to 70 percent estimation that you gave as to which volume was on the system, how did you come to that? MR. O'HARA: It was based on the traffic counts taken on Illinois Route 59 and 127th.
MR. DANIEL: You testified earlier that you hadn't reviewed the marketing strategy or the scope of the geographical area from which this Wal -M art intended to draw its customers, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So you wouldn't necessarily know what cars were on the system if you didn't look at their license -- or their receipt tags or their address reports that they st udied in determining they should locate a Wal -Mart store at this particular location? MR. O'HARA: Could you repeat that. MR. DANIEL: I'm pretty bad at that. With respect to the particular decision to locate the Wal -Mart store at this locat ion, there was testimony on an earlier occasion where you attended the hearing and they stated they had done an address study based on the receipts of the store to determine from area stores that were opened, area Wal -Mart stores, where there was a need fo r another Wal -Mart. For example, if there are people shopping in Wal -Mart in Naperville or at another location, I think the word was Plainfield was screaming out as a big red button area for them to come locate. Did you review any of that analysis t o determine where the source of the traffic for this particular Wal -Mart might come from based on their marketing plan? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: You mentioned that at one point in your testimony that the intersection at 127th Street and 59 would be rated at D. Could you explain what a D classification is. MR. O'HARA: Level Service D is acceptable within the peak hour realm by the Illinois Department of Transportation for an intersection. However, I believe it was just one movement th at was operating at Level Service D. For this particular intersection it was C. MR. DANIEL: And what particular intersection was that on this plan? MR. O'HARA: I have to look in the report. Give me a second. MR. DANIEL: I positioned be hind Mr. O'Hara the preliminary landscape plan for the Wal -Mart site. MR. O'HARA: What was that question again? MR. DANIEL: With respect to the movement that you rated a D in respect to this development, can you just identify the location of t hat D rating . Why don't we take -- what is the easiest way to do this, to go by intersection? MR. O'HARA: We can do that. MR. DANIEL: What was the rating for the northeast corner of the lot for right turns in? MR. O'HARA: All I have he re is the operation of the intersection. Operation of this intersection is level of service C. MR. DANIEL: So level of service C, how is that different from a D? MR. O'HARA: It's a level of average delay. If you'd like me to read that for you I will. Would you like that? MR. DANIEL: I guess I'd rather have you quantify it so these people can understand it at least from the perspective of a layperson.
MR. O'HARA: Let's go right ahead and read it. That way everybody will understan d it. A level of service operates from level of service A to level of service F. And it's just like school, A is the best, F is obviously fail. MR. DANIEL: And there's no E. MR. O'HARA: There is an E. Maybe not in school but there is in ours. C is light congestion with individual cycle failures beginning to appear. The number of vehicles stopping is significant at this level though many still pass through the intersection without stopping. Level of service D, congestion is m ore notable with longer delays resulting from combinations of unfavorable progression, lawn cyclings or high volume to capacity ratios. Many vehicles stop, and the proportion of vehicles not stopping declines. MR. DANIEL: With respect to level of se rvice D, is that something you'd more typically find in the City of Chicago. MR. O'HARA: And the suburbs. MR. DANIEL: With respect to this particular part of the suburbs, are you aware of any other intersections in the Village of Plainfield tha t are C or worse? MR. O'HARA: I believe that you're approaching capacity right at -- right just a little bit east of here along Route 59. MR. DANIEL: And currently, is the intersection of 127th and 59 better than a C? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: And how about the area -- you actually wouldn't have data for this area to the north where the northeast entry and exit is, would you -- MR. O'HARA: Pardon me? MR. DANIEL: You wouldn't have data or any analysis of the traffic r ating at the northeast corner now because there's no intersection there, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: You mentioned something about the fire chief previously, that you talked to him and stated that the result of your conversat ion was that he saw no increased problems for their purposes as a result of the Wal -Mart store, right? MR. O'HARA: My understanding from my conversation with the fire chief was that the response time based on the existing system, he didn't see a chan ge in the response time with or without the Wal -Mart and with or without the extension of the roadway through. MR. DANIEL: Tender what has been marked as No. 16, which is a January 17, 2000 fire district review form related to Kensington Club and th e revised preliminary plat. You've seen that one before, right? MR. O'HARA: No, I haven't. MR. DANIEL: Did someone else at your firm handle that aspect of Kensington Club? MR. O'HARA: No. I dealt with -- I believe it was myself that co mpleted the Kensington Club report. MR. DANIEL: And were you involved in the Kensington Club planning from beginning to end? MR. O'HARA: The planning, no. MR. DANIEL: How about the traffic analysis at the time there were town homes planne d for Kensington Club?
MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: You're familiar -- are you familiar with any conclusions from the fire chief as stated in Item 1 here, failure to provide access, slash, connection to major roadway, parentheses, Route 59, wi ll add critical minutes and delay of emergency services leading to an unacceptable rating for access and for layout at Kensington Club. Did anyone inform you of that during your professional involvement with the Kensington Club subdivision? MR. O'HA RA: Never. MR. DANIEL: I've got a large exhibit which has been marked previously as No. 13 that I'll leave behind. I'd just like to get some access to it to copy it. Mr. O'Hara, do you see where the town homes are located at Kensington Club on this particular preliminary plat and preliminary engineering plan dated January 7th of 2000? MR. O'HARA: I see the town homes, yes. They're down around the center of the plan. MR. DANIEL: And those town homes typically generate less volum e than do -- than does a Wal -Mart, correct? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: And do you know if the town homes planned for Kensington Club at one point in time required eliminating access to Route 59 for the Pasquinelli subdivision? Those town ho mes are south of the Target, right? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: So they likely wouldn't have an impact on the intersection of Pasquinelli Drive and Route 59 to the north of the Target, to the north of the proposed Wal -Mart, and even to the nor th of where you see the intersection of Bob White Lane with the property line, right? MR. O'HARA: As through traffic on Route 59, they probably would be. MR. DANIEL: So it probably would have an access -- an impact? MR. O'HARA: Obviously , if you have ten vehicles on Route 59 from the north passing their access on 59, they would have an impact. MR. DANIEL: But that wouldn't cause the access to be eliminated though, right? MR. O'HARA: No, they would not. MR. DANIEL: And ea rlier you agreed that you testified that they likely would not be able to get another stoplight to the north of the Wal -Mart store as a result of this development and the proximity of what would be two very close stoplights. MR. O'HARA: I believe I t estified that the Illinois Department of Transportation has standards relative to the distance between signals and the volume. You have to meet a warrant. And my feelings are that a residential development would not meet the warrant and possibly would no t meet the distance. But the State has been known to put in signals at 1,000 feet on an SRA. MR. DANIEL: In this particular situation, I recall we got as far as it not being likely they would put a stoplight there, right? MR. O'HARA: That woul d be correct. MR. DANIEL: And if the warrants were met, for example, you had a regular use of this particular intersection, a high rate of accidents, increased traffic incidents as a result of the development of the Wal -Mart, assuming that the warran ts were met, under this
particular circumstance, if there were no stoplight at the Wal -Mart intersection, do you think they would be more likely to have that stoplight at Heritage Meadows? MR. O'HARA: Could I ask you just to remove the name of any sp ecific use relative to high accidents. I don't believe the Wal -Mart is creating the accidents. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Well, the volume might lead to more incidents. Let's put it that way. MR. O'HARA: The hire the volume, the chances of additional accidents, yes; that does occur. MR. DANIEL: Now, with respect to the answer to the question that I asked you about the likelihood of the stoplight at the intersection of Pasquinelli and 59, would they be more likely to get that stoplight if there w ere no stoplight to the Wal -Mart north of 127 assuming the warrants were met? MR. O'HARA: I can't answer for the Illinois Department of Transportation. MR. DANIEL: In your professional opinion, if you were advising somebody on the likelihood of them getting a stoplight after they petition and ask you as a professional to evaluate their warrants, what would you tell them? MR. O'HARA: We will go through the study and then we'll come up with the answer. MR. DANIEL: You've been paid by W al -Mart $6,000, at least to the last time you answered the question. Would you give them a better answer than that? MR. O'HARA: I believe your answer was what were we paid on this project. It wasn't by whom. As a matter of fact, Wal -Mart is not pa ying us. MR. DANIEL: Has someone else paid you? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: Why don't we just clarify the record so we don't have to speculate. MR. O'HARA: Pulte Homes. MR. DANIEL: Do you know of any other costs Pu lte Homes is paying for and what their amount would be? MR. O'HARA: No, I don't. MR. DANIEL: What is your bill up to today? MR. O'HARA: You know, really, I don't know. MR. DANIEL: Any idea? How many hours have you spent? MR. O 'HARA: Many hours here. MR. DANIEL: You'd say about 50 hours all told? MR. O'HARA: Honestly, I can't say. I can give you that -- I certainly could dig out all my time sheets and come up with a correct answer. MR. DANIEL: That's okay. MR. O'HARA: I didn't think that was very important. MR. DANIEL: All right. With respect to what I'm going to tender now, it's a January 6th, 2000 memorandum to Don Venard at Pulte Master Builders. That is marked No. 23. And it's from KL OA, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: And you were the principal that was in charge of this particular evaluation? MR. O'HARA: That's correct.
MR. DANIEL: And under your analysis here, it's accurate to say that the resi dential subdivision proposed by Pulte Homes was going to generate less traffic, fewer incidents, less volume in the Wal -Mart, right? MR. O'HARA: This development at this particular parcel? MR. DANIEL: This particular analysis from January 6, 2 000. This particular project related to the entire Pulte project, correct, including the Wal -Mart site and the areas to the south? MR. O'HARA: Phase 1, there were 272 single -family dwellings; Phase 2, 126 town homes; Phase 3, commercial shopping cen ter south, commercial shopping center north. Total volumes during the p.m. peak hours so you can work with apples and apples was 855 trips inbound, 785 trips outbound. MR. DANIEL: Into the entire development though, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: And that entire development is spread out over a much longer distance than where you testified there would be 79 -- or 790 entrances and exits combined on the Wal -Mart site during the peak hour, p.m.? MR. O'HARA: Well, I certainly addressed that at my prior testimony. There was 700 -- approximately 775 or 790. But you also have to look in that report for the ten acres of commercial on the south side of 127th at I -59 -- Illinois 59 which for the record is during the p.m. peak hour that we looked at for the shopping center south. P.M. peak hour: Inbound, 535 trips; 535 trips outbound. MR. DANIEL: And that's accurate. This is exactly what you gave the Village as it related to all of these parcels, this quadrant he re where the Wal -Mart is proposed, including these commercial here, right? MR. O'HARA: That's right. And what you need to know is that we assume worst -case scenario for the outlot. That is why the volumes are so high. MR. DANIEL: Now, you als o included in this January 6, 2000 report the Kensington Club homes to the south, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: And the total volume that you quoted was probably slightly in excess of 790 at the p.m. peak hour that you quoted f or the Wal -Mart store itself, correct? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So what you're doing is you're taking 70 homes -- you're eliminating 70 homes, and you're adding 790 vehicles during that p.m. peak hour, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: Now, in this report, you particularly made some notation as to land uses. Do you see on page 2 the first caption in bold? MR. O'HARA: Yes. MR. DANIEL: In this particular situation in your analysis, you didn't review the comprehensive plan or the zoning code. Did you review the land use provisions in those two documents during that analysis? MR. O'HARA: No. MR. DANIEL: And it was just a visual analysis? MR. O'HARA: What was listed there was e xactly what was out in the field. MR. DANIEL: So it was just observations that led you to believe that it was agricultural with mixed residential?
MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: So you prepared that study thinking that the area w as planned for agricultural and residential, just small interspersed at residential areas. And in this particular situation, you again had to look at the zoning code, right? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: I don't have any further ques tions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anybody in the audience? MS. PIEMONTE: I just would like to know if the number I was quoted from the Bolingbrook manager is accurate. If that store which is not 24 hours receives 4,000 cars per day. Is that an average? I mean, these stores are averaging -- are supposed to average $1 million a day. So if people were spending $200 each, that would take 5,000 customers per day to meet those numbers. MR. O'HARA: I couldn't tell if that was accurate or not for the si mple reason I don't know how successful the store is. MS. PIEMONTE: An average Wal -Mart store, how many cars per day? MR. O'HARA: I don't know. I don't work for Wal -Mart. I couldn't tell you that. MS. PIEMONTE: A major commercial enterp rise of this size maybe? MR. O'HARA: You don't want to know that answer. The ITE -- and anybody can look at the ITE Trip Generation Manual -- for a store of this size you're looking at around 8,000 vehicles in, 8,000 vehicles out. It could be as high as 10,000 vehicles in and out. MS. PIEMONTE: Is that not a 24 -hour period? MR. O'HARA: That is over a given day period. Most of the data in ITE, I believe, for the big boxes, for the superstores, those are mostly 24 -hour operations. But I can honestly tell you that of the few that we've looked at in the early mornings, there really isn't a whole lot of traffic there. It normally will occur between 7:00 and 11 :00 p.m.. MS. PIEMONTE: So we can expect roughly 8,000 cars per day? MR. O'HARA: No. See, you're taking my -- now you're taking -- what I'm trying to tell you -- what I'm trying to tell you is I can give you data relative to what is in the Institute of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation Manual off the to p of my head. How accurate it is, it will be close, but that's for a design day. That's not an everyday occurrence. Actual occurrence, Wal -Mart may have counters in their driveways and they can come up with data on a daily basis, in an hourly basis . However, to just give you -- if you were to ask me off the top of my head, I would tell you it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,000 inbound and 8,000 vehicles outbound. MS. PIEMONTE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? Yes, sir. MR. NETZEL: William Netzel. How many vehicles would you suspect would be inbound and outbound for 70 homes? MR. O'HARA: I could tell you that. That was in our report. Do you have it, Counselor? I put mine away.
From this development, there were 65 trips in the peak out. AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's just during peak hour, right? MR. O'HARA: Right. On a daily basis -- single -family home, an individual home, they generate normally, single -family homes, 1 0 trips per day on average. Just let me clarify. The ten trips, when you go out, that's one; when you come back, that's two. MR. CHAIRMAN: State your name, please. MR. BYRNE: James Byrne, 12453 Falcon Drive. To make the comparison app les to apples, you said the 70 homes are roughly the number of trips in the peak hour. What would that 8,000 trips for a commercial unit be peak hour so we have an apples to apples comparison? MR. O'HARA: I gave you that data. This development is g enerating roughly 775 trips in the p.m. peak hour inbound and approximately 790 trips outbound in peak hours. However, remember what I explained to you in the original report. There were over 500 trips to that development inbound and 500 outbound fo r the ten acres that are already zoned commercial. So the addition is not that high for the Wal -Mart in comparison. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I have a quick question, Mr. O'Hara. I just want to clarify. On Exhibit 16, thi s was the letter that was introduced from the Plainfield Fire Protection District. It's dealing with Kensington Club. It does not differentiate whether the letter dealt with the area north of 127th or south of the 127th, does it? MR. O'HARA: No. T hat's correct. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And I think the question earlier was asked by counsel as to the importance of the elimination of Bob White Lane and emergency access to the subdivision surrounding versus an access to Route 59, isn't that correct? MR. O'HARA: That's correct. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And yet in the letter from the Fire Protection District, the access that was addressed and that point that they said was unacceptable was an access to where? MR. O'HARA: It says failure to provide the access connection to major roadway to Route 59. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: So they were talking about in this instance probably an area down here where they're talking about -- MR. O'HARA: Probably by the Ponds. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: -- they didn't have an access to Route 59 in that location. It really had nothing to do with this area or the relationship that you mentioned earlier in your discussion with the fire chief with regard to Bob White Lane and the elimination of that? MR. O'HARA: Tha t's correct. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Thank you. MR. DANIEL: Just one follow -up. Mr. O'Hara, do you recall after I discussed that particular exhibit from the chief that I asked you about the access of Pasquinelli and the likelihood that that wou ld become a right in or right out or the likelihood that there would be an intersection with a stoplight, either one, do you recall that during your testimony either a few days ago or --
MR. O'HARA: I asked the question of IDOT, the original access to the drive. And that was going to remain the same according to, and I believe I gave the name Kevin Belgrade. MR. DANIEL: So at this point -- MR. O'HARA: His phone number, by the way, everybody, 705 -4131. MR. DANIEL: At this point in time, you're not aware of any plans to do anything to eliminate left turns out of Pasquinelli Drive onto northbound 59? MR. O'HARA: No. Would I do it during the peak hour? I don't know. MR. DANIEL: I don't have any further questions. MR. WEIFFENBACH: John Weiffenbach, 13514 Thomas Circle, Plainfield. The peak traffic that you referred to is traffic during the evenings 790 trips, round numbers. How much is that from the local area versus vehicles that will be brought to this area from outside the local area that doesn't exist now or do you have any data that would reflect that? MR. O'HARA: I can't tell you where the vehicles are entering from to the Wal -Mart or going through or to this development. What I can tell you is tha t approximately 25 percent of the trips to this Wal -Mart will be from the adjacent traffic bypassing now on the adjacent street system of 127th and most likely more or most of it from Illinois Route 59. That's an easy identifier that it's a trip from basically work to home. You stop there. Instead of going work to home, you go to work to K -Mart or Wal -Mart and then to home. It's a multi -purpose trip. MR. WEIFFENBACH: Thank you. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I do have our appraiser here this evening . I think we can finish this up before 11:00 o'clock, Mr. Chairman. He was asked to give a specific assignment to look at something that would be in the range of more of the western suburban areas as far as the relationship of prices to a Wal -Mart store . MR. CHAIRMAN: If there is insufficient time for cross -examination, you'll have to bring them back. MR. DANIEL: We should be able to make it in 25 minutes. I'd like to have 15 minutes or so. MR. KLESZYNSKI: My name is Dale Kleszynski, K -l -e -s -z -y -n -s -k -i. I'm the president of Associated Property Councilors. At the last hearing what I was asked to do -- I presented some general data essentially as to what we had reviewed and what our general conclusions were. The Commission had requested that I go back and re -visit and answer some specific questions. The central question being what is the impact of a commercial development on retail homes that exist adjacent to that development? I picked one randomly, and it's locate d in Schaumburg at the southwest quadrant of Meacham Road and Higgins Road. It's called Park St. Clair subdivision. On this map, this development is a Target store and a Dominick's store. Park St. Clair subdivision is located immediately to the rear of that particular development. We compared -- the reason we selected this is that although zoned, this particular application was not fully developed. The homes came in first and then the development continued. Pricing increased from the ar ea that is located here in this particular phase
(indicating) against phases that were located in the area that's off the chart here or off the map. We looked at average sales prices, average listing prices, days on the market, and number of sales. And we tested them both adjacent to -- we isolated this area that's adjacent to the commercial development and then used an average number for those homes over a ten -year period of time and then took the balance of the subdivision that was identified as P ark St. Clair. Our conclusions are outlined on a chart that I will give to the Commission. The raw data is there, as well as there's a chart that I think tells the story a little bit better for that particular subdivision. If you look on the first page , which is a comparison of listing prices, there's a line graph that's marked Series One. It's marked with a diamond. It's a line and a diamond. That represents the sales activity over a ten -year period of time on average for the street that is adjacent to the commercial subdivision. As those in comparison to that, that is away from the commercial development, it is consistent. It is a pattern that you would expect. In other words, there's not an overabundance of homes that are either listed or sold in this particular location (indicating) along the commercial development. So that concludes the data presentation for Park St. Clair. Counsel for the objectors indicated and repeatedly pointed to a location at Butterfield Road and Route 53. So we decided that we would apply the same test and information study for this particular area. The homes in this particular area, it's called the Valley View subdivision, were constructed circa 1960. According to the building departm ent of DuPage County, this Wal -Mart store was permitted in 1992, constructed sometime thereafter. There's a reasonable consistency of housing style in this particular area. And so what we did was we tested the sales along Arboretum Road, which are i mmediately adjacent to this particular commercial development. I would note that the berming pattern in this particular area, just generally speaking, is one to three feet. There's a fence that borders this area, and there's some evergreen trees that hav e been planted on the side of the Wal -Mart. The data demonstrated that -- if you take a look at page 2 of my -- it's easier to see on the line chart. The comparison of the list prices over a ten -year period of time demonstrate not only a consisten t pattern of increases but a consistent pattern of prices on a dollar basis with both near and away from the particular development that we're testing. When you get to year nine and ten, you have a slight aberration because in year nine, there were n o homes that were listed or sold in this location along Arboretum Road. So it appears to be somewhat skewed. When you compare the sales prices for the same period of time between the years -- between the year 1992 to 2001, the pattern is nearly ide ntical with the increases taking place and the pricing patterns being similar both near and away from the commercial application. In addition to the charts that you see in front of you and, again, Series One would be -- you know, if you want to make a note on it -- Series One is the listings and sales along -- that immediately abut to the commercial application.
We were fortunate in this particular study that we found seven transactions over the ten -year period of time that we as appraisers i dentify as resales, meaning that a house sold multiple times; might have sold in 1994, 1996 and 2000. We found two that were located on Arboretum Road where it sold multiple times, where the same home sold multiple times, meaning, again -- for us a ppraisers, that's a jack pot, you know, when you find that kind of information because what it let's you do is it let's you deal specifically with a style of home and you -- by going back into the MLS data, you're able to determine what the physical chara cteristics of that particular residence were. The shortened version of this is that the price patterns for both the general average data and the increases for the general average data are reflected in that comparison -- in those comparison charts an d additionally, on the individual basis for the seven specific homes that were resold multiple times, both far -- both near and away from the commercial applications. The pricing patterns and increases were again consistent with what's demonstrated in th ose charts. And I think that specifically answers the question that I was asked by the Commission at the last meeting. At the last meeting, the Commission wanted some specifics about what happens as far as this sort of development is concerned. Tho se are two examples -- given the amount of time between this meeting and the last meeting, these are the two examples. I would also inform you that from a direct testimony perspective, I did not contact any planners for Plainfield. I did not review any zoning ordinance. I really didn't have any interest in doing that particularly because the fact that what I wanted to do was merely look at the data and see what the data said to see if there were any aberrations. As you can see by taking a look , just as we did when we discussed Park St. Clair place, if you take a look at the number of sales both near the commercial subdivision and away from the subdivision, you don't see any major aberrations or variances. In other words, the relationship betw een the number of sales located adjacent to the commercial development appears to be reasonable and consistent with the number of sales that are located in the balance of the subdivision. If you take a look at the days on the market, there's no patte rn that would demonstrate that a home located adjacent to the commercial development takes longer to sell than the homes away from that particular development. Are there any questions? MR. DANIEL: With respect to your last conclusions on the Gle n Ellyn store, you just referenced the days on the market adjacent to commercial not exceeding or creating any kind of a pattern indicating that it was different than the days on the market away from the commercial. I see in 1992 a number 69 for days on the market adjacent to commercial and below that, days on the market away from commercial, 62. That's a difference of seven days. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes, that's correct. If you take a look at the 1993, however, you will then also see a patter n where the home that was on the market adjacent to the commercial development was 15 days and the average for the homes away from the commercial was 50 days which is -- you know, which is a little bit larger than seven days. MR. DANIEL: Where was t he home?
MR. KLESZYNSKI: I'd have to go back and look at the data. The 50 days represents the average of the 37 sales that took place away from the commercial development or off Arboretum. So in other words, the 50 days is the average time per iod for the 37 homes. MR. DANIEL: I understand that, sir. I'm trying to get at the 15 days. Hold on. Where is the home? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I can answer your question. If you also take a look at the year 1994, you'll also notice that the home -- that the property that was -- of the three properties that were sold along Arboretum Road had a shorter marketing period of time than the 33 homes that were located off of Arboretum Road. MR. DANIEL: Sir, let's talk about this home that was on th e market for 15 days. Where was it in relationship to the store? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I'd have to go back and look at the raw data. But as you can see, it is on Arboretum because we restricted our study to this location of Arboretum. It was one of thes e homes (indicating). I can't point to it specifically as I stand here today. MR. DANIEL: Why don't we figure out why that is. There is an aberration here in your 15 days. Is it a four -bedroom home or is it a three -bedroom -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: I can't answer that question. MR. DANIEL: Does it have a swimming pool, does it not have a swimming pool? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I can tell you that the average homes that were located in my observation of the homes that are located in here, they're either split level or two -story homes. There's a couple of two -story homes. They're split level homes. They appear to be two -bedroom homes. MR. DANIEL: How do you know that? MR. KLESZYNSKI: They appear to be three -bedroom homes because when I reviewed the data from the MLS, I don't have a recollection seeing anything that was, like, a two -bedroom home or five -bedroom home. MR. DANIEL: So you specifically remember seeing three? MR. KLESZYNSKI: My recollection of the data that I re viewed is that the general home style here is split -level homes, three bedrooms, some of them have dining rooms, some of them do not have dining rooms. My recollection is that they also have garages either attached or detached. MR. DANIEL: What was the date of the construction of this particular Wal -Mart? MR. KLESZYNSKI: According to the DuPage County Building Department, this Wal -Mart was permitted in 1992 and constructed shortly thereafter. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at this. Permit ted in 1992, your average sale price of a home adjacent to commercial is 137,500, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: That is greater than the number you gave for the average sales price away from the home, 133,325, right? M R. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: Take a look after 1993, the year after permitting. Average sales price, rather than being greater than homes away from the commercial, the average sale price of homes adjacent to the commercial is actually less than by roughly $1,000, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. But in appraisal language, that would be considered to be similar.
MR. DANIEL: Well, let's take a look at the difference in 2001. Somehow you've told this Commission that yo u don't see any noticeable issue with respect to impact on this particular Meijer store. Take a look at the difference here. Can you tell me what number you see in the second row of your final column underneath 2001, the average sales price away fro m the commercial area. MR. KLESZYNSKI: In the year 2001, the average sales price for the homes that were listed -- that were sold along Arboretum was 172,000 and the average sales price away from the commercial district was 209,645. MR. DANIEL: And in 1999, it was a $14,000 difference ballpark, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: In 1999, there was an approximately $14,000 ballpark, that's correct. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at your days on the market adjacent to your commercial. You stated that you didn't see any real pronounceable difference between properties away from the commercial and properties adjacent to the commercial. What happened in 1999 -- I'm sorry -- 1998 when you had a 15 -day average next to the commercial greater tha n the average for the market away from the commercial? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Actually, those variations, in my opinion, can be related to the style and condition of the homes. MR. DANIEL: But you didn't study that, did you? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I re ad through all of the multiple listing data; and, again, there is a difference in the size and style of these homes as well as the condition of these homes -- MR. DANIEL: Hold on a second. You're talking generally. What about the homes that were f or sale? Tell the Commission about the homes that were for sale. Where were they, what were their style? You can't speak generally here. MR. KLESZYNSKI: The homes that were away -- if I'm understanding your question correctly -- MR. DANIEL: An address, or point to it on the map, street. How far away, how close, was it on Sequoia, was it on Cypress? MR. KLESZYNSKI: We did not do a street by street allocation as far as going from Arboretum to Sequoia. What we did was we compared the performance of the sales and listing prices on Arboretum Road to those that were off Arboretum Road and we handled in averages. I'd have to go back and I can pinpoint these, but it would take an enormous amount of time to identify the specific location. All I was interested in the completion of my study was whether or not there was a significant difference in value patterns for both listings, sales, marketing times, and number of sales on Arboretum Road in comparison to the balance of the subdivisio n. So I can't answer -- I can answer your question. I just can't answer it now. MR. DANIEL: How long is that store open during a given day? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't know specifically. MR. DANIEL: What's the square footage? MR. KLES ZYNSKI: I don't know the specific square footage. MR. DANIEL: Is there a food store? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. MR. DANIEL: Can you tell how many loading docks there are from the overhead there?
MR. KLESZYNSKI: I cannot. MR. DANIEL: Who took the aerial for you and when was it taken? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I'd have to refer to Mr. Abel who provided me with this area. MR. DANIEL: We'll get to that later. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at your list prices. You mentioned the average list prices. You think that's important to your analysis, right, or else you wouldn't have listed it. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I listed it only as a piece of information. I didn't give it any greater or less importance. But in reviewing the data, I felt that I should plug it in predominantly because of the fact that it -- there seemed to be a reasonable -- a reasonably consistent pattern that the houses weren't, like, overlisted. It seemed to be a reasonable market. It assisted me in ident ifying this as being a reasonable market meaning that I didn't see a lot of aberrations that, for example, somebody listed a house for $500,000 in this neighborhood. That's why it's there. MR. DANIEL: I'm trying to get to the point of -- at this pa rticular point in time, you provide this information with the Commission because you think it's relevant, right, the list price you think is relevant? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I provided this information to the Commission because I think it was part of the qu estion that they asked me. MR. DANIEL: So you would agree that it's relevant, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I would agree that I provided the information to the Commission because I believe that they asked me to do it. MR. DANIEL: So in your exp erience as a professional appraiser -- for how many years? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Since 1977. MR. DANIEL: Since 1977, you haven't considered the list price in any of your considerations of being a relevant factor? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's a nice way of twisting the statement, Counselor. But, again, I included the information in this chart because I believe the Commission asked me to do it. Obviously, it's an item that we consider as a residential appraiser. You would certainly take it into cons ideration so it would be a factor you would consider. MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at list prices then. Now that we know it's something you have to consider obviously. There is a great difference. MR. KLESZYNSKI: You misstate my statement. My statement is that it is something that we consider and it is a piece of information that obviously provides additional insight into the market. MR. DANIEL: Good enough. Now, take a look at the difference between average list price adjacent t o the commercial in 1992, and for the same period of time, the average list price away from the commercial. Do you see in 1992 at the time of permitting, the average list price was $3,900 greater than away from the commercial. The average list price for homes adjacent to the commercial was $3,900 greater than away from the commercial. MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: Do you know in 1992 what month the permit was issued? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't know that specifically.
MR. DANIEL: So you don't know if that's an aberration or not, whether it was just one listing in January or the result of how many listings by November ? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. I do not know that. MR. DANIEL: Do you see by the next year, the year after permitting, the average list price, again, as consistent with the average sales price flipped. All of a sudden you've got the average list price away from the commercial being $3,900 more than the average list price near the commerci al. MR. KLESZYNSKI: That is correct. MR. DANIEL: It's almost to the exact dollar, isn't it? MR. KLESZYNSKI: It's several thousand dollars. MR. DANIEL: Now, the next year you have a difference of $15,000 greater away from the commerc ial, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. In 1994, the average list price is higher away from the commercial than it is adjacent to the commercial. MR. DANIEL: And right now, you have in 1995, you're showing a difference of roughly $7,000 and some chan ge. The homes adjacent to the commercial actually sold for more. Do you know where those two homes were? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Again, they're located on Arboretum Road. MR. DANIEL: You don't know if it's on Arboretum away from the main Wal -Mart sto re and behind that use to the -- is that the northwest corner? MR. KLESZYNSKI: This area (indicating)? MR. DANIEL: Yes. Is that northwest? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I can't answer that question specifically. MR. DANIEL: You can't tell us wh ether it's located near the intersection of Arboretum and Illinois Route 53 either, can you? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I cannot identify the specific location of that sale. MR. DANIEL: And you don't know how many bedrooms or anything else, right? MR . KLESZYNSKI: Not as I stand here. Again, I've got the information. I can plot it if we needed to. MR. DANIEL: And for the same single sale home in 1996, you don't have that information, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL : With the same single home with an $800 difference that you discount for the two homes in 1997, you don't have any explanation according to the questions I asked you previously? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I can't identify the specific location of those h omes. MR. DANIEL: Let's look at the three homes in 1999. You've got another $3,000 difference, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Do you have any idea why there would be a 3,000 difference in '99 and all of a sudden you have a diffe rence of $35,000, greater than $35,000 difference in 2001? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I think it can be related specifically to the type of home, the condition of the market, mortgage rates. There is an entire plethora of variables that would impact these list ings or sales that go as far as whether the home was monitored --
had a modernized kitchen or whether the home was not in very good condition, or whether or not -- MR. DANIEL: But you are speculating now, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I'm say ing that as a professional appraiser, all of those things enter into making a determination about what the value patterns are. So as an appraiser, when I see a difference of $3,000 in the sale of a home from one month to the next, I don't get all nervous about it because of the fact that I believe that that can be related to whether or not the person was in a position that they had to move. By way of example, like any other subdivision, we found one particular property that did resell and the price was lower. And when we investigated into the price being lower and why it was lower, we found out from the MLS information that the seller was transferred and had to be out of the property within -- I believe it was a six -month period of time and they j ust took less money. So when I see tolerances of a couple thousand dollars in an area that's generally homogenous, I don't consider that to be -- as an appraiser, I don't consider that to be a major problem. MR. DANIEL: What do you think abou t the $35,000 difference though? Wouldn't you investigate that to figure out what happened? I mean, let's say you've got a seller that has got to move really fast because of a transfer or maybe a death in the family -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: Are we talki ng about in the year 2001? MR. DANIEL: Yes. What happened there? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That does bring up an interesting point. In this particular subdivision, there were several lots that had not been constructed upon. And in the time period betw een 1996 and 1998, several much larger homes had been constructed on it. There was one in particular that was an extremely large two -story house that was one of the resales. And that -- given the number of sales in that particular area, that could have skewed that market somewhat. So you've got -- MR. DANIEL: But you don't know that because you didn't investigate it. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Well, again, I have a recollection of that from the information I -- MR. DANIEL: Generally. How about the specific transactions here, sir? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think he needs to argue with the witness. He's testified as to what his methodology was, and I think we ought to move on to the next question. MR. DANIEL: Mr. Chair man, in response, I think I've asked the question six times and gotten no answer. How many times do I have to ask the question before I get an instruction to the witness to answer so I can move on? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I think the record will show that he answered your question. It may not be the answer you're looking for, Counselor, but he answered the question. MR. DANIEL: Sir, was the answer to my question as to the particular homes at issue in 2001, you have 20 homes for sale, and you're sayin g that there were a couple homes interspersed throughout that subdivision and all of a sudden somehow those couple of homes brought an average of 20 homes up to some level of $35,000 above the level adjacent to the Wal -Mart?
MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I am not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that there were changes in that market, and I cannot account specifically for the year 2001 -- the variations in the year 2001. MR. DANIEL: And you can't account specifically for any of the years? MR . KLESZYNSKI: I disagree with you. I think what your statement there is -- there is a misinterpretation of what my testimony is. MR. DANIEL: We will let this exhibit speak for itself. What I'd like to do is mark this as -- are you marking e xhibits, John? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: No. MR. DANIEL: Why do we make this No. 40, just to be clear. No. 40 would be captioned N/W/Q Route 53 and Butterfield Road, Glen Ellyn. It's a three -page exhibit, I believe. I'm going to mark No. 41 as S/W/Q Meacham and Higgins, Schaumburg, Illinois. That's No. 41. Sir, I am not going to take you through the same questions that I just used in the last ten minutes during the sampling that you drew for Glen Ellyn. But your area analysis was the s ame here, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Now, this is the one where you mentioned that you randomly selected something but later said that you selected this for specific reasons. Which one was it? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Again, in this particular -- what I tried to find in the Schaumburg subdivision when I looked -- in conducting my study, the first thing I did was I looked at the intersection of Route 53 and Butterfield Road. I concerned myself with criticism by yourself in thi s matter relative to the pricing of those homes because the homes at the Butterfield quadrant were below what I believe the general home price seems to be in the subject area. So I tried to find something that was higher so I could give the Commissio n a flavor of what happens on several ends of the spectrum. So there were some specific criteria. MR. DANIEL: So it wasn't random? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Well, when I say random, I tried to find locations that have residential units that are adjacent to commercial. And amongst that research, this seemed to be a good selection. MR. DANIEL: Okay. MR. KLESZYNSKI: So maybe I misused the word random. MR. DANIEL: With respect to this particular development, what was the permit date for ea ch of these stores? I think you said there was a Target and a Dominick's. What was the permit date for those two stores? MR. KLESZYNSKI: My recollection is that the permitting date and the construction date was phased, and I don't have a recollecti on right now which went first, the Target or the grocery store. But these were permitted right around 1992, '93, I believe. MR. DANIEL: What was the zoning on that parcel initially? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I believe the zoning of that parcel initiall y was commercial. MR. DANIEL: And that was platted that way with all the homes, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't recall whether or not this portion of the plat was in existence at that particular point in time. I do know that this was designated commercial and then this ultimately developed as residential.
And my recollection is that because the Village of Schaumburg wanted to see a certain type of development here, the residential homes went in before some of these stores were -- went in. MR. DANIEL: How many of the homes went in before the store went in? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't know. MR. DANIEL: Percentage; any estimate? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. MR. DANIEL: So it would be a risk to even place a guess on it, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: It would be a risk for me to place a guess on it. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Where did the homes go in first? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I believe that the development pattern was in this general area (indicating). I don't know specificall y which homes went in first. MR. DANIEL: Do you have the builders' or developers' initial pricing schedule for those homes to show whether or not he treated the homes adjacent to the store different than the homes away from the store? MR. KLESZY NSKI: I do not. MR. DANIEL: Okay. Taking a look at your exhibit, I'll just point out a few things. You agree that in 1999, there was a home sold adjacent to the commercial on this particular project at $340,000, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: And 13 homes sold at an average sales of $35,295 higher than that, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's correct. MR. DANIEL: Let me take you around the subdivision here. Adjacent to the Target and the Dominick's, how many homes would you say are included? MR. KLESZYNSKI: About 21. MR. DANIEL: Now, you have more than half that number selling away from the commercial, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't understand the question. MR. DANIEL: You have 13 homes selling away from the development -- away from the Target and the Dominick's, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: For the year 1999, the MLS demonstrates that anything in that subdivision that was off of Thatcher in that year, there were MR. KLESZYNSKI: I did that myself. MR. DANIEL: Now, the homes that sold for $375,269 average were how far north of the Target and Dominick's? Were they across the street from the homes that you counted up to 24? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Actually, it was 21. And, again, th e study was done the same way as the other location in which I did not make any differentiation between the streets that we looked at. So in other words, I didn't take and plot out and say, okay, this one is located here and this one is located here and this one is located here. I didn't do a pin study on those particular locations. All I worked with -- again, I want it to be very clear for the Commission, all I worked with was averages adjacent to and away from the commercial development.
MR. DANIEL: Let's take a look at the list prices in the same area. I'm just going to talk about one year here so we can move on. Actually, it appears that the commercial benefitted the owner of the one home that sold. He listed his home at $339,000 a nd somehow someone came to the site and saw the development and bought it for $1,000 above list, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That is a mischaracterization, Counselor. That sale at that price can be attributed to a lot of different things, the quality of the home, the updating of the home, the amenities of the home, whether or not it fit the parties' specific needs for timing, for availability, there is -- whether or not there was the availability of financing at that particular point in time. There's a variable plethora of variables that could account for these differences. MR. DANIEL: With differences like 60,250 in 1996 in average sale price with the homes away from the commercial benefitting by the $60,250, would you think that plethora was heav ily weighted in favor of those homes? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. What I would consider again is that, as I testified to before, my review of the data here indicated that you had a different -- you began to have a difference in type and pricing of housing that was located in this area. And I believe that some of the numbers are skewed by the variations in the size and amenities associated with the housing as the subdivision unfolded. MR. DANIEL: But that could be your only explanation because you did n't visit this site in particular and you didn't study the individual variables, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: That is my opinion from reviewing the information that came up from the MLS service. MR. DANIEL: Okay. MR. KLESZYNSKI: There appeared to be a difference in size, there appeared to be a difference in age. Those things alone impact people's choices relative to what prices they'll pay for residential units. MR. DANIEL: Do you agree generally again, not researching any of the particul ar variables that if you develop commercial property at the same time as residential property and you plat it out, okay -- let's say you take this situation south of 127th Street, you studied that, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: The situation south of 127t h Street? MR. DANIEL: The Pulte subdivision known as Kensington Club. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I did not study Kensington Club. MR. DANIEL: Let me just develop a hypothetical for you. In your professional opinion, you're reviewing a situation wh ere you have a quadrant of land and on that quadrant of land at the biggest intersection, you're going to put a big Wal -Mart. And then behind on that quadrant of land, you're going to put some houses, maybe 70 homes around that Wal -Mart. Let's say t he homes expand roughly two or three blocks to the west of the Wal -Mart and to the north and kind of form a ring. Do you understand what I'm saying? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Sort of. MR. DANIEL: Let's just use the drawing. I'm going to show you Ke nsington Club. This might be the first time you've seen it. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to once again object to the introduction of this exhibit because this is not the way Kensington Club is developed. I
don't know where the question ing is going to go, but that is an early version of the Kensington Club plan. That is not what received final approval. You can check with the Staff. MR. DANIEL: Just so we're clear, and we can analyze this, this is No. 11. This is a different ex hibit than I presented with before. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: It may be a different exhibit, but it's still not correct, Counselor. MR. DANIEL: Well, if Staff could provide me with this plan. This traces back to our Freedom of Information Act request. We've done a lot of work. It's kind of hard to figure out what the final plan is when you ask for it and don't get it. Let's figure out what the final plan is here. I'll tell you what. Let's use this development. Let's say you're platting the ho mes to the west of this proposed Wal -Mart, the Wal -Mart, and the homes to the north of the Wal -Mart at the same time. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Meaning the west being what's identified here as proposed Heritage Meadows by Pasquinelli? MR. DANIEL: The lef t side of the exhibit, yes. And the homes to the north are to the top of the exhibit. Okay? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Okay. MR. DANIEL: You're platting these subdivisions along with at the same time, simultaneously, you're at the Planning Commissi on here, you're saying ladies and gentlemen, I want your approval, this is what you've got. How are you going to assist your client who is asking for information on how to price his homes? Are you going to say price them all the same, they'll sell at the same time? No, you're not, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: You already answered the question. MR. DANIEL: Okay. So let's get to this point. MR. KLESZYNSKI: But your answer is incorrect. For example, there would be marketing studies that would relate to the amenities that would be associated with the type of housing so that there will be an appropriate amount of variables to appeal to a wide market. And there would be, just as there is in most of these subdivisions, there is going to be a lot of extras and there's going to be some basic styles of homes, but there's going to be changes in there, also. And then some of that pricing is going to be related to what it's going to cost in order to put that house together and what the market will bear. MR. DANIEL: Who hired you tonight? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Who hired me tonight? MR. DANIEL: Yes. MR. KLESZYNSKI: My contact was with Mr. Philipchuck. MR. DANIEL: Who is paying you? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No one's paid me yet. I believe that what I'll probably do is submit a bill to Mr. Philipchuck and then he will probably send it along to Pulte Homes. And I did have some conversations with Mr. Weber from Pulte Homes in which I discussed my fee. MR. DANIEL: Before you provided your opinion tonight, were you aware that there were individuals in the community thinking about suing Mr. Pulte for fraud or Pulte Homes for fraud and consumer fraud? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I was unaware of that.
MR. DANIEL: Well, that cle ars one issue up. Let's talk about this issue. You've got this subdivision. Are you going to price the homes on the back of the Wal -Mart and the homes along the north side of the parking lot the same as you are the homes that are two blocks to the w est, three blocks to the west in these cul -de -sacs or to the north if they have all the same amenities? Give them all swimming pools. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes, I would. If they were identical homes and they were located both here and there, I would do t hat. I might make an adjustment because of land area on things like cul -de -sac lots, for example, because there would be a greater expense to me as a developer to have -- that you know, this is just a bigger chunk of ground. MR. DANIEL: Your data s upports that, that you present in these two charts? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. What you asked me here was a hypothetical. My data addressed specifically the Commission's questions of what happens over a long period of time to homes, residential units, tha t are located both near and away from commercial applications. MR. DANIEL: And I think we established under both scenarios the Meacham Road store and the Butterfield Road store and -- let's see -- from '92 to 2001, you had some pretty significant c hanges. In both samples your homes adjacent to commercial sold for more initially than the homes away from the commercial. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I would disagree with your interpretation. MR. DANIEL: Look at your exhibit. Let's take a look at your exhibit. I'm going to give it to you, No. 40. MR. CHAIRMAN: You're beginning to argue with the witness. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I believe tha t -- MR. DANIEL: I don't mean to argue with him, Mr. Chairman. I'll withdraw the question. The question has been withdrawn. You did not take a look at what has been marked as Exhibit No. 31, have you, comprehensive land uses in the community? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I did not. MR. DANIEL: Let me do this. I have a black -and -white copy. I a pologize to the Commission, but I assume you have somewhere a comprehensive plan that has the color designations. Are you familiar with the state zoning? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to object to this line of questioning. I don't u nderstand based on the direct testimony that my witness gave what this has to do with his testimony this evening. MR. DANIEL: Mr. Chairman, he's testified that there would be no impact whatsoever on these homes surrounding the Wal -Mart proposal. If he's not familiar with the zoning in this area, if he's not familiar with the nature of the zoning even generally, I think it calls substantial doubt into his testimony, and I am entitled to bring that evidence forward. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: I think what he's testified to are the relative values of homes that have sold in the given areas adjacent to commercial. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Skewed data. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And that was the direction of the Planning Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: What point ar e you trying to establish here tonight?
MR. DANIEL: Mr. Chairman, the witness here referred to one theory I presented as bunk. One of his samples in Northlake, the Wal -Mart in Northlake, North Avenue, at the last meeting, if any of you are familiar with Elmhurst and you've driven North Avenue, this Wal -Mart is on the east side of the intersection of I -294, I -290, North Avenue, and I think even the Lake Street ramp. There's a rock quarry behind it. The nearest homes are more than 1,000 feet away f rom the store, and they don't compare to the homes here. This testimony is highly suspect and every aspect of it I can show the Commission is bunk. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Counsel, let me to respond to that for just a second. At the initial testimony, I ga ve general parameters based on stores that were selected for me in a review of MLS data which is exactly what I testified to. I testified to the fact that after reviewing that data, I didn't see any patterns in that data that allowed me to conclude that t he store had impacted the value of those properties. The Commission then requested that I go back and re -visit some more specifics. That's what I've done. MR. DANIEL: I asked you to take a look at some specifics too, right? MR. KLESZYNS KI: Yes. That's what I've done. MR. DANIEL: No, no, no. The Commission asked you and you responded to them, but I asked you to look at a couple of stores, right, a Home Depot, at Butterfield and 355. MR. PHILIPCHUCK: And, Mr. Chairman, if I might, I brought up the objection at that time and said that if counselor wants him to have and introduce testimony at those locations, he's certainly aware to do that. I was not directed nor redirected by the Planning Commission to go to those specific locations. You may have wanted us to go there and look at those numbers; that's not what the Planning Commission requested us to do. MR. DANIEL: Or would we hear what he thought he should do in his professional experience as an appraiser, he do esn't research the formalities of each real estate transaction to determine specific aspects of that home. Right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Wrong. MR. DANIEL: What aspects of the homes then cause the 60,000 and $35,000 differences? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I gave you a laundry list of things that I think can be attributable to the differences that are reflected here. MR. DANIEL: You're reading from a textbook. I can do that to the Commission, sir. You're an expert witness who's getting paid eventual ly by somebody, probably Pulte, testifying here, and you're supposed to be testifying under oath. There have to be some circumstances to differentiate these sales, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Do you know them? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Size, condition. MR. DANIEL: No. Specifically on these sales. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Again, I said specifically on a number of times during the course of this testimony that I have the data of each of the specific residences from the MLS. I have it in my file. I agree that I did not pinpoint each one of those and go through a specific analysis of variations between one home nearby or away from any of those that I worked with averages.
MR. DANIEL: Do you understand that all of that data that y ou have is supposed to be presented under oath tonight somehow, or summaries of it at least, maybe addresses of the homes that are within your surveys, instead of a single page document with the data? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I believe that my testimony is a ppropriately prepared and truthful given the computer -generated information that we did. MR. DANIEL: What's the longest report that you prepared for a project like this? MR. KLESZYNSKI: What's the longest report? MR. DANIEL: Yes. What is the longest report? MR. KLESZYNSKI: This one. MR. DANIEL: Really. Three pages? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. MR. DANIEL: Have you prepared any longer reports for any of your towers, your water towers? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. That testim ony was generally oral testimony that was given at zoning hearings similar to this. MR. DANIEL: Okay. So we're not going to be able to review any of your data tonight, right? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I'll be more than happy to make copies of the MLS i tems that we have in our file and the specific residences and all of the computer -generated data. I'll be more than happy to do that. MR. DANIEL: I ask that we have that available. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I'll be more than happy to xerox every piece o f paper that relates to the sales in Park St. Clair as well as Valley View that we generated in our -- from the MLS. It certainly is available to any Realtor too, or any person who has access to the MLS data. MR. DANIEL: If I can comment, Mr. Com missioner, I think the data would be extremely helpful for a few reasons. First of all, he's presented information to you that he thinks supports Wal -Mart's position that there is no impact on surrounding properties. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Actually, it's m y opinion that there's not an impact; I don't know if it's Wal -Mart's opinion or not. It's my opinion that I'm presenting here. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Plan Commission interested in seeing any additional data or records of this witness? MR. MANNIN G: No. MR. SEGGEBRUCH: No. But can I ask a question as a layman. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Sure. MR. SEGGEBRUCH: Isn't the purpose of doing a bar graph like this to account for irregularities? In other words, rather than looking at numbers and trying to pinpoint -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: It's demonstrative. The purpose of the bar graph is demonstrative. And the purpose of the bar graph is to -- and, again, I was, I think, reasonably specific about that. What I found in that bar grap h is that both homes both away from and near the -- if you're looking at the Meacham Road one -- both away from and near the commercial development rose at a similar rate in a similar trend line. MR. SEGGEBRUCH: Other than the one where there is no sale.
MR. KLESZYNSKI: Other than the one where there's just no data, where there's just no data for that particular year on that particular street. And the other location, the Valley View location, was I think even tighter in terms of the demon strative comparison of the sales prices. I mean, I guess I don't know how better to explain it than the fact is that things change in real estate. And any one of these variations, to be quite frank with you, any one of these variations of sever al thousand dollars can be related specifically to how the seller felt that morning when they got up and what pressure they were under in order to sell outside of physical characteristics of the real estate that appealed to , you know, somebody who walked into a house and said I don't like this house and they offered less money for it or they felt that they had to paint it or change the carpeting or do any of those sorts of things. Those are all variables that impact the selling prices on residential real estate. The market is not perfect. MS. GEHRKE: I need to ask a question as to why you've been before us twice, this is a second time, why didn't you compare a Wal -Mart down here? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Because there's not enough data. Meaning -- b y way of example, this is an emerging developing area where things are emerging and developing at the same time. There is a lot of market factors that are going on. I would have loved to have found a precise situation. But the fact of the matter is all of this stuff is coming out of the ground kind of at the same time. And it's -- I didn't have a place or at least there wasn't a place that was obvious to me where I could -- what I liked about these is I could go back ten years, and I could go bac k over a reasonably long period of time and see what the market was doing. MR. GEHRKE: How long has the Wal -Mart in Joliet been there? MR. KLESZYNSKI: In Joliet? MR. GEHRKE: On Larkin Avenue. MR. KLESZYNSKI: I just don't know. I ju st didn't look at that. I didn't exclude it or include it. From the last commission meeting, I had several days during which to prepare this. I was satisfied with the locations that we did. If I had more time, you know, and -- I mean, I picked this l ocation on Butterfield Road specifically because counsel -- or one of the reasons was counsel identified it and it was an obvious place for me to start. So I mean, I didn't exclude the Larkin Avenue -- I didn't exclude the Wal -Mart or K -Mart on Lar kin Avenue. I just didn't identify it as having the same characteristics as the two locations that I had time enough in order to complete my study. MR. DANIEL: So how do you know this is a developing and upcoming area if you haven't reviewed the co ntents of the plan, the zoning map -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: Because I don't live in a bubble. As a real estate appraiser, the fact of the matter is that I am familiar with what goes on generally in certain areas. And I would tell you -- I mean, fo r example, I was involved in some of the condemnation work for the widening of Route 59. So I had to become generally familiar with what was going on. It's no secret that Plainfield is a wonderful community that has good values and good schools and it's emerging and it's a very nice -- it's a very nice place to live.
MR. DANIEL: I did ask him a question about estate zoning. But before I get back to that, Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to give this Commission enough evidence so that you're not lau ghed at when you make a decision either way. The data that you have is conclusory. I've heard five or six members of the Commission from time to time state that they're worried that we're raising all of this hullabaloo over this issue and that we're not ever going to bring any data to support ourselves. You know what? To an extent, we don't have a lot of data. We are going to tell you what our people bought their homes for, what they intend to sell them for, what their expectations are. On t his issue they are going to talk about the surrounding area. But you know what you have? You have their direct testimony, factually against his conclusions. You can't accept conclusions over that. I'm just trying to give you the data. I would sub mit that you should take it. Because if you give it a favorable review and it's affirmed, I'm going to take you into court and get it reversed. It's easy. MS. GEHRKE: Is that a threat? MR. DANIEL: No -- yes. It is a threat. I've been hired to protect these guys' interest. I may be the biggest pain in the neck to this man right here right now, but I'll shake his hand just like I shook Joe Abel's hand. I see Joe Abel all the time. He's on the other side. It's fine. They're experts. I'm professional; they're professional. But there is a chance this will go to court. They wouldn't have hired a lawyer. They wouldn't have paid for all the exhibits to be produced, for all the transcripts to be produced on an expedited basis. Thi s is an important matter, ladies and gentlemen. I submit that you should get those records and we should all review them. MR. CHAIRMAN: I ask the Commission, again, are you interested in seeing any additional information from the appraisal witness? MR. SHINDERLE: No. MS. GEHRKE: No. MR. SEGGEBRUCH: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: With that, we have no further questions of the appraising witness. AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's another crappy day -- MR. CHAIRMAN: We will take questions f rom the audience. Give me a break, folks. MR. TRUPPA: I had a question with respect to the area. MR. CHAIRMAN: State your name, please. MR. TRUPPA: Have you done any market studies on the time -- MR. CHAIRMAN: Your name, please . MR. TRUPPA: Tony Truppa. Have you done any studies for the market value, average market value in the area of -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: Actually, I did. I ran the same averages for Plainfield as I did for these two communities that I tested. I just didn't present it. And I actually took a look at, for example, how many homes were for sale in the subdivision, that's Heritage Meadows. And I actually did -- I started out by taking a look at what the average home price -- again the same information that's produced on the MLS, how many homes had been sold
over a certain period of time, what the average sales price was, what the average marketing price was. What that did was -- that is one of the reasons I was concerned about the pre sentation of the information on Route 53 and Butterfield Road because the numbers that washed out in that part were lower than the average sales prices that you folks have here in Plainfield. You have strong values. Your values are increasing. I sa w actual increases in the Heritage Meadows subdivision. I can't quote them right now because I don't have that today in front of me. But when I ran this, you know, these homes in the short period of time that they've been in existence -- I think I went back in three or four years because at a certain point -- it didn't show us any resales and there seemed to be a competition between the developers, you know, the new construction. But home prices have gone up? There's not a question about that over a s hort period of time. And that's consistent with what happens in residential real estate in developing areas almost universally. MR. TRUPPA: Do you know those areas that you studied? Previously you talked about five locations. Now you've got two lo cations that you analyzed. Do you know in those areas what the relative mix is between residential properties versus commercial and business? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No, I don't. Because, again, when I presented that data previously, all I did was I identi fied the locations and I reviewed the MLS data for the housing price patterns. I didn't do -- I didn't do what I did here. When the Commission asked me to firm up my information a little bit more, that's what I did in this particular instance. MR. TRUPPA: One more question. I think I know the answer. But do you know on those last analyzed areas how many of those residential areas or what the percentage of that residential area was, say, apartments? MR. KLESZYNSKI: There were no apartments. In these two locations that I presented on the charts? MR. TRUPPA: Correct. MR. KLESZYNSKI: There were no identifiable apartments or town house developments. They were straight single -family residential units. MR. TRUPPA: But the other five ? MR. KLESZYNSKI: The other five, I just don't know. And I didn't pay any attention to that. MR. TRUPPA: Just for information, I do have some information in this area, in Wheatland Township specific, which this area is in. The residentia l versus commercial agriculture is 94 percent. So we have a very high density of residential. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes, you do. I would agree with that statement. MR. TRUPPA: I'm making that statement more to the Plan Commission. MR. KLESZYN SKI: I would agree with you that you have a high -- again, that's not atypical of most suburban locations. You have a high number or high percentage of residential, and then you have coexisting with it commercial applications that have to service that h igh number of residential units that you've got there. MR. TRUPPA: For example, we have Bolingbrook to the east. They're at about 82 percent. We have Naperville which is in the upper 80's -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: Just in the same fashion that you have --
MR. CHAIRMAN: Folks, let's try to focus here. Let's make our points and move on. It's getting late and we've got a lot of people that want to talk. Yes, sir. MR. WEIFFENBACH: John Weiffenbach. Going back to the exhibits that y ou had, wherever it is, that was Butterfield Road and 53. I am wondering, you indicated that you did the study in that area yourself. Have you driven down or are you familiar with the views all along Arboretum there? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Yes. MR. W EIFFENBACH: Is the elevation at Route 53 and the intersection of Arboretum the same as it is at Butterfield and Arboretum approximately? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I think it was reasonably consistent. Because when you come in -- I want to make sure I say th is correctly. When I came in off of 53 and drove these streets, I don't have a recollection of this being angulating and having berm is -- I mean, the berm is, I'm going to guess, just a couple of feet, if it's that. MR. WEIFFENBACH: So you would say then that that is of similar character to the neighborhood of the way it would be if the proposal goes forward the way it is? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I think that yours is going to be better. I think that the berm and the landscaping plan is bette r than what I see here. MR. WEIFFENBACH: You also stated that you were involved with the condemnation assessments on Route 59? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I was involved with several properties where -- there were portions of the property taken for t he widening of Route 59 right up here along 59 (indicating). MR. WEIFFENBACH: Would that be some of the residential south of 135th? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. It was commercial development predominantly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. MR. BYRNE: Jim Byrne, 12453 Falcon Drive in Plainfield. I'd like to reference the chart you had up previously. In the subdivision and the development here, you stated originally in your testimony that this was zoned commercial but not developed until after th e housing development had started. MR. KLESZYNSKI: Not totally developed. My recollection from this is that a portion of this is -- that a portion of this was in -- I don't know what portion was in -- and then another portion came after the resid ential applications were in. MR. BYRNE: You also testified that the lot sizes were smaller and got larger and got bigger. MR. KLESZYNSKI: No, no. I didn't testify to anything about the lots. What I said was in reviewing the information, it ap peared that there was a difference between the housing styles and sizes that were located in this area and they just got bigger in different portions of the subdivision. That's what I said. MR. BYRNE: So in this case, the developer knowing this was commercial did smaller lower -priced homes here, larger -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't think I can conclude that. What I think I can conclude is the market changed over a period of time, just as it has in your particular area where as you drive the stre ets, you're seeing homes that are smaller and there are larger homes that are coming in as different buyers approach the subdivision.
MR. BYRNE: Generally speaking, smaller homes sell for less than larger homes, generally speaking. MR. KLESZYNSK I: No. That's not a true statement. MR. BYRNE: In the same subdivision. MR. KLESZYNSKI: That's still not necessarily a true statement. MR. BYRNE: It's late. I'm not going to waste everyone's time. MR. KLESZYNSKI: There's a diffe rence. I'm not going to ignore the fact that size of homes certainly counts in terms of the price pointings that come into play, but also the quality of the residents, the condition of the residents. So by way of example, you could have a larger not so well maintained home sell for the same price that a smaller home that is pristine would sell for. Do you see what I'm saying? MR. BYRNE: I understand. Within this subdivision when this land was originally plotted and still zoned residenti al, let's not forget that fact, this subdivision lists homes per the Joliet Herald News between 250 to 325. Pasquinelli for the eight existing spec homes that are built in Kensington Club, this Sunday, December 2nd, listed in the Chicago Tribune eig ht spec homes ready to move into within a reasonable period of time with a sale price over 259,700 to 351,900, substantial economic value. MR. KLESZYNSKI: There is no question about the fact that that range that you're discussing here, in my opinion, would not be atypical of a suburban location in a high quality area. MR. BYRNE: Given the same developer had plans for this land shows on the Village planning map -- on the Plan Commission map prior and in shaded gray under the current Plan Commiss ion map shows residential here. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the same type of homes and property values here. Is it your testimony compared to the second and third largest lots within the Heritage Meadows subdivision, that removing 275 to $325,000 homes or more and replacing it with a commercial, residential 41 feet from the property line will have no economic impact on the resale of these homes? MR. KLESZYNSKI: It is my testimony that the data does not demonstrate that that impact wil l take place. MR. BYRNE: It's not unusual for, as we saw in the Schaumburg case, villages or developers to build smaller, next to commercial larger and next to residential? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No. I think that's an incorrect statement. MR. BY RNE: Let me read for you dated July 17, 2001, meeting began at 7:30 p.m., the Village Plan Commission meeting, in case 886 -062901 dot CP, quoting, as Planner Carroll has mentioned, we are using town homes as a buffer at 119th Street, which is consistent not only with Century Trace, Heritage Oaks, but with what is happening to the south -- please note that's miscorrectly stated, it's to the north in the Heritage Meadows development -- which is smaller lots and also in town homes here and adjacent to the commercial corner. It has helped in the visual context in site. We are leaving with anywhere from 50 to 150 feet of area that we bermed and planted, screened as a softening core, the entire area,
not only as you drive through the site to keep it mor e rural in character, but to provide from noise and screening for folks who live in the development. In this area, do you see any multi -family homes creating a buffer between a commercial zone consistent with the stated subdivisions sited by Planner C arroll to buffer between residential and commercial? MR. KLESZYNSKI: No, I do not. MR. BYRNE: Thank you. MR. NETZEL: William Netzel. My question is: How familiar are you with some of the new home builders as far as lot prices? Let 's take away the house. Just lot prices. You mentioned before the cul -de -sac would be probably be priced a little bit higher because it's off a busy street. If you were to take the middle cul -de -sac and price -- up in the center, the three, take t he middle one. If you were to take a lot there and assign a price, say, $100,000, if you were to move further east and pick another lot, would the price of the lot be less? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I would generally expect that if I was comparing a cul -de -sa c lot to this lot right here or this lot right here (indicating), that it would be a lower price for that lot. MR. NETZEL: Why? MR. KLESZYNSKI: First of all, curvilinear streets are a little more private and these lots are larger than these oth er lots, and they just present a different ambience as the homes presented when they were developed would present a different ambience for the user. It's also in part a market choice. By way of example, some people want to live on a cul -de -sac and s ome people want to live on a corner. Like for example, I wouldn't want to live on a corner of this nature, but some people look for a corner lot and at times pay a premium for those lots. MR. NETZEL: What would happen if you went to the corner lot i f it got rezoned and the Wal -Mart pushed back further? MR. KLESZYNSKI: If this lot got pushed back further, again, I don't think that from the data that I reviewed and -- from the data that I reviewed, I don't believe that there's a substantial impa ct on it. MR. NETZEL: I just want to ask one more question. In the development, Wilding Pointe, they have a railroad track. I don't have the exact numbers. But I believe for a cul -de -sac away from the railroad tracks in an undesirable location, yo u're probably talking about 100. In the middle area, you're talking 70. But to get along the railroad tracks, you can get in there for 35,000. MR. KLESZYNSKI: That might be true. That might be true in that particular instance. And it might be ho w the developer priced those particular lots. MR. NETZEL: But people buy for location, location, location. MR. KLESZYNSKI: But they buy for other things, too. Meaning -- by way of example, they buy based on scarcity, too. I am not familiar w ith the area you're talking about, but the best example would be the homes in Hinsdale that are located along 294. No one thought that those would develop. Ultimately those developed because people wanted that specific school system and those specific am enities that that community
offered. So those pricings -- ultimately they got sucked up into the market and they're developed with beautiful homes that are maintaining their value. MR. NETZEL: How were they affected short -term, say, three to five y ears by rezoning a commercial area next to them? MR. KLESZYNSKI: Again, the data, at least in these two locations, the data doesn't seem to demonstrate that in the short poll that that problem exists. MR. NETZEL: Does the data cover -- MR . KLESZYNSKI: I think that your problem -- to be quite frank with you, I think that the problem associated with values in this area until it's completely developed is the competition of existing homes with builders. MR. NETZEL: I bought a location away from the commercial end. I didn't want to butt right up next to it. But the question -- go ahead. MS. PIEMONTE: My first question is as far as crime, what is going to bring more crime, a 210,000 square -foot, 24 -hour commercial operation or 70 homes? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't know. MR. CHAIRMAN: This is an appraiser. He's not -- MR. KLESZYNSKI: I just don't know the answer. MS. PIEMONTE: This goes to the property value. I would like to quote a paragraph I have. This wa s from the Chicago Sun -Times , Sunday, November 4, 2001, entitled Research the Neighborhood Before You Buy. This was made by the American Homeowners Association. Are you familiar with that entity? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I am. MS. PIEMONTE: Are they a reliable source of information? MR. KLESZYNSKI: They're a source of information. They have their opinions just like everybody else does. MS. PIEMONTE: Are they generally respected? MR. KLESZYNSKI: They're a known organization tha t opines on certain things. MS. PIEMONTE: I also have a copy for all the Commissioners. Nothing affects your piece of mind or quality of life more than your family's safety and security. Crime rates, or the perception of it, do more to sap a n eighborhood's vitality and property values than any other factor. Would you disagree with that? MR. KLESZYNSKI: I don't agree or disagree with it. I think people buy homes for different reasons, different locations. I think there's a multitu de of factors that impact the value of those homes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else that has a question for the appraiser? (No response.) MR. CHAIRMAN: That's all we're going to have time for tonight. Mr. Philipchuck, what will yo ur plans be for the next date? MR. PHILIPCHUCK: We only have one more witness. We have our land planner, Mr. Bill Abel. We'll pull our summation together as far as how we feel based on all the expert testimony that you've been given that would sati sfy the conditions that exist for the zoning ordinance for granting of the zoning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Daniel, please have your closing arguments and summation prepared.
MR. DANIEL: We do have a number of witnesses. MR. CHAIRMAN: You do ha ve a number of witnesses? MR. DANIEL: Yeah. We have -- I am not sure how many of the community want to speak either, but I want to know -- MR. CHAIRMAN: Are these going to be echoes of what we've already heard or is this going to be some new information? MR. DANIEL: I would hope it's going to be new information. I hope to have the MLS information for you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we will -- we are planning to have another meeting one week from tonight, December 11th in this location, 7:00 o'clock. And we will certainly hope to complete the presentation of arguments and presentations. And hopefully, we'll have enough time to vote on this. So at this point, the Chair needs a motion to continue this public hearing until 7:00 o'clock Tuesday, December 11th. MS. GEHRKE: So moved. MR. SHINDERLE: Seconded. MR. CHAIRMAN: A motion has been made and seconded to continue the public hearing for special use, zoning, and site plan review for the Wal -Mart petition to Decem ber 12th at 7:00 o'clock in this location. A vote by voice, please -- excuse me -- December 11th. Vote by voice. All in favor, signify by saying aye. (Chorus of ayes heard.) MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposed, nay. (No response.) MR. CHA IRMAN: The motion is carried. You know the drill. We'll be here December 11th. * * * * * STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. COUNTY OF W I L L ) I, Gale L. Barma, CSR No. 84 -003807, RPR, do hereby certify that I reported in shorthand the proceedings had in the above -entitled cause; and that the foregoing Report of Proceedings, Pages 1 through 146 inclusive, is a true and correct transcript of my shorthand notes so taken at the time and place aforesaid. This certification applies only to those tran scripts, original and copies, produced under my direction and control; and I assume no responsibility for the accuracy of any copies which are not so produced. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand this 10th day of December, 2001. Certif ied Shorthand Reporter