HomeMy Public PortalAboutExhibit MSD 36 - Transcript of the First Technical Conference April 4, 2018 TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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1 MEETING OF THE RATE COMMISSION OF THE
2 METROPOLITAN ST. LOUIS SEWER DISTRICT
3 2018 STORMWATER RATE CHANGE PROCEEDING
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8 TECHNICAL CONFERENCE
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10 APRIL 4, 2018
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18 REPORTED BY:
19 REBECCA L. TUGGLE, CCR, RPR, CSR
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
20 711 N. 11TH STREET
21 ST. LOUIS, MO 63101
22 (314) 644-2191
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1 I N D E X
2
3 Opening Statement by Ms. Myers 18
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5 DISTRICT'S EVIDENCE:
6 BRIAN L. HOELSCHER, P.E.:
Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 23
7 Questions by Ms. Stump 34
Questions by Commissioner 55
8 Questions by Commissioner Schoedel 59
Questions by Commissioner Mahanta 61
9 Questions by Commissioner Bresnan 62
Questions by Commissioner Goss 64
10 Questions by Commissioner Palans 66
Questions by Commissioner Goss 73
11 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 76
12
SUSAN MYERS, GENERAL COUNSEL:
13 Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 81
Questions by Ms. Stump 83
14 Questions by Commissioner Palans 91
Questions by Commissioner Goss 92
15
RICHARD L. UNVERFERTH, P.E.:
16 Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 94
Questions by Ms. Stump 100
17 Questions by Commissioner Stein 113
Questions by Commissioner Schoedel 115
18 Questions by Commissioner Brockmann 117
Questions by Commissioner Bresnan 120
19 Questions by Commissioner Mahanta 121
Questions by Commissioner Goss 122
20 Questions by Commissioner Beckmann 142
Questions by Commissioner Schoedel 145
21 Questions by Commissioner Mahfood 148
Questions by Commissioner Palans 151
22 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 160
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1 I N D E X C O N T I N U E D
2 MARION GEE:
Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 164
3 Questions by Ms. Stump 170
Questions by Commissioner Goss 180
4 Questions by Commissioner Bresnan 185
Questions by Commissioner Palans 185
5 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 193
6
THOMAS A. BECKLEY:
7 Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 195
Questions by Mr. Malone 198
8 Questions by Commissioner Ratzki 205
Questions by Commissioner Mahfood 207
9 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 209
10
11 HENRIETTA LOCKLEAR:
Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 211
12 Questions by Mr. Malone 215
Questions by Commissioner Mahfood 222
13 Questions by Commissioner Goss 227
Questions by Commissioner Ratzki 237
14 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 238
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
Lisa Stump, Attorney At Law
3 Brian J. Malone, Attorney At Law
Lashly & Baer, P.C.
4 714 Locust Street
St. Louis, MO 63101
5 (314) 621-2939
lstump@lashlybaer.com
6 bmalone@lashlybaer.com
FOR: The Rate Commission.
7
Brandon Neuschafer, Attorney At Law
8 Saher Valiani, Attorney At Law
Bryan Cave LLP
9 One Metropolitan Square
211 North Broadway, Suite 3600
10 St. Louis, MO 63102
(314) 259-2050
11 brandon.neuschafer@bryancave.com
saher.valiani@bryancave.com
12 FOR: Missouri Industrial Energy
Consumers.
13
Susan M. Myers, General Counsel
14 Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District
2350 Market Street
15 St. Louis, MO 63103
(314) 768-6209
16 smyers@stlmsd.com
FOR: Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer
17 District
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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED
2
3 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
4 Mickey Croyle
Tom Ratzki
5 John L. Stein
Kennard Jones
6 Paul Brockmann
Russell Hawes
7 Leonard Toenjes (Chair)
Mark Schoedel
8 Don Bresnan
Steve Mahfood
9 Chan Mahanta
Brad Goss
10 Gerald Beckmann
Lloyd Palans (via telephone)
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Good morning. Being
2 9:00 o'clock on April 4th, we will call the meeting of
3 the Rate Commission Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer
4 District to order to consider the 2018 stormwater rate
5 change. We will start with a roll call. Since our
6 secretary is not here, I have asked our legal counsel
7 to take roll.
8 MR. MALONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 Commissioner Beckmann?
10 COMMISSIONER BECKMANN: Here.
11 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Brockmann?
12 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Here.
13 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Bresnan?
14 COMMISSIONER BRESNAN: Here.
15 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Croyle?
16 COMMISSIONER CROYLE: Present.
17 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Goss? Goss?
18 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Here.
19 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Hawes?
20 COMMISSIONER HAWES: Here.
21 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Jones?
22 (No response.)
23 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Mahanta?
24 (No response.)
25 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Mahfood?
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1 (No response.)
2 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Palans?
3 (No response.)
4 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Ratzki?
5 COMMISSIONER RATZKI: Here.
6 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Schoedel?
7 (No response.)
8 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Stein?
9 COMMISSIONER STEIN: Present.
10 MR. MALONE: And Chairman Toenjes?
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Present.
12 MR. MALONE: Commissioner Ziegler?
13 (No response.)
14 MR. MALONE: We have a quorum present.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you very much.
16 I have been asked by our court reporter to
17 ask the commissioners, due to the room setup, to be
18 sure to identify yourselves as we go through the
19 proceedings so that she can make sure that the court
20 records are accurate and make sure the names are
21 proper.
22 With that, Item 2 on the agenda, the
23 approval of the March 5th minutes. Chair would
24 entertain a motion on the meeting minutes.
25 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: So moved.
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1 COMMISSIONER STEIN: Second.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Motion made and seconded.
3 Discussion on the motion?
4 COMMISSIONER HAWES: Yes, I propose that in
5 Agenda Item 3(a) other business, that we amend the
6 minutes to reflect that when I seconded the motion, I
7 specifically stated in order to hear the rationale for
8 going into closed session. I would like that reflected
9 in the minutes.
10 I'm Russell Hawes.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Do the commissioners who
12 made a second in the motion approve of that change in
13 the minutes?
14 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: So moved.
15 COMMISSIONER STEIN: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
17 Any further discussion on the minutes of
18 March 5, 2018?
19 (No response.)
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: All right. All in favor
21 of the motion, signify by saying aye.
22 THE COMMISSION: (Collectively) Aye.
23 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Opposed?
24 (No response.)
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Sustained. Motion
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1 carries. Thank you.
2 My name is --
3 MS. STUMP: Mr. Chair? Can I interrupt you
4 for a second?
5 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Ms. Stump.
6 MS. STUMP: Could you please ask -- could we
7 ask if anybody is on the phone before we proceed with
8 your --
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, we may.
10 MS. STUMP: -- reading? Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Are there any rate
12 commissioners who are on the teleconference?
13 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Yes. Hello. My name
14 is Lloyd Palans and I'm participating by telephone.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Anyone else?
16 (No response.)
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans. I
18 appreciate that.
19 My name is Len Toenjes, and I am Chair of
20 the Rate Commission Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer
21 District and will serve as chair of this proceeding.
22 The charter plan of the district was
23 approved by the voters of St. Louis and St. Louis
24 County as special election on February 9, 1954, and
25 amended at a general election on November 7, 2000.
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1 The amendment to the charter plan established the rate
2 commission to review and make recommendations to the
3 district regarding changes in wastewater rates,
4 stormwater rates, and tax rates proposed by the
5 district.
6 The charter plan requires the board of
7 trustees of the district to select organizations to
8 name delegates to the rate commission to ensure a fair
9 representation of all users of the district services.
10 The rate commission representative organizations are
11 to represent commercial/industrial users, residential
12 users and other organizations interested in the
13 operation of the district, including organizations
14 focused on environmental issues, labor issues,
15 socioeconomic issues, community neighborhood
16 organizations and other nonprofit organizations.
17 The rate commission currently consists of
18 representatives of Associated General Contractors of
19 Missouri, St. Louis County Municipal League, Lutheran
20 Senior Services, St. Louis Council of Construction
21 Consumers, Greater St. Louis Labor Council, Missouri
22 Botanical Garden, League of Women Voters of Metro
23 St. Louis, Homebuilders Association, Mound City Bar
24 Association, North County Incorporated, Missouri
25 Coalition for the Environment, the City of Ladue,
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1 Engineers' Club of St. Louis, Missouri Industrial
2 Energy Consumers, and Education Plus.
3 Upon receipt of a rate change notice from
4 the district, the rate commission is to recommend to
5 the board of trustees changes in a wastewater,
6 stormwater, or tax rate necessary to pay, number one,
7 interest and principle following due on bonds issued
8 to finance assets of the district; number two, the
9 cost of operation and maintenance; and number three,
10 such amounts as may be required to cover emergencies
11 and anticipated delinquencies.
12 Further, any change in a rate recommended to
13 the board of trustees by the rate commission is to be
14 accompanied by a statement that the proposed rate
15 change, number one, is consistent with constitutional
16 statutory or common law as amended from time to time;
17 number two, enhances the district's ability to provide
18 adequate sewer and drainage system in facilities or
19 related services; number three is consistent with and
20 not in violation of any covenant or provision relating
21 to any outstanding bonds or indebtedness of the
22 district; number four, does not impair the ability of
23 the district to comply with the applicable federal or
24 state laws or regulations as amended from time to
25 time; and number five, imposes a fair and reasonable
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1 burden of all classes of ratepayers.
2 The rate commission received a rate change
3 notice from the district on February 26, 2018. The
4 rate commission must, on or before June 26, 2018,
5 issue its report to the proposed rate change notice to
6 the board of trustees of the district unless the board
7 of trustees upon application of the rate commission
8 extends the period of time for the issuance of the
9 rate commission report for an additional 45-day
10 period.
11 Under procedural rules adopted by the rate
12 commission on February 26, 2018, any person affected
13 by the rate change proposal had an opportunity to
14 submit an application to intervene in these
15 proceedings. An application to intervene has been
16 filed by the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers.
17 This application has been deemed granted.
18 On February 26, 2018, the district submitted
19 to the rate commission prepared direct testimony of
20 Brian L. Hoelscher, Susan M. Myers,
21 Richard L. Unverferth, Marion M. Gee,
22 Thomas A. Beckley and Henrietta Locklear. On
23 March 12, 2018, the rate commission submitted its
24 first discovery request to the district. On
25 March 22, 2018, the district filed its responses. On
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1 March 19, 2018, the rate commission submitted a second
2 discovery request to the district which the district
3 responded to on March 29, 2018.
4 This technical conference will be held on
5 the record regarding the rate-setting documents and
6 direct testimony filed with the rate commission by the
7 district. The purpose of this technical conference is
8 to provide the district with an opportunity to answer
9 questions propounded by members of the rate
10 commission, then by any intervener, and finally by
11 Lashly & Baer, legal counsel to the rate commission.
12 Following this technical conference, the
13 interveners and the rate commission consultant may, on
14 or before April 16, submit prepared rebuttal
15 testimony. A technical conference will be held on
16 April 25th through April 27, 2018, regarding the
17 rebuttal testimony. At that technical conference,
18 each person submitting rebuttal testimony shall answer
19 questions propounded by members of the rate
20 commission, the district, then the other interveners,
21 and, finally, by our legal counsel.
22 Following the technical conference, the
23 district, its consultants, the interveners, and the
24 rate commission consultant may, on or before
25 May 7, 2018, submit prepared surrebuttal testimony. A
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1 technical conference will be held on the record on
2 May 16 through May 18, 2018, regarding the surrebuttal
3 testimony. At that technical conference, each person
4 submitting surrebuttal testimony shall answer
5 questions propounded by members of the rate
6 commission, then by the district, and the interveners,
7 and finally by our legal counsel.
8 Ratepayers who do not wish to intervene will
9 be permitted to participate in a series of
10 on-the-record public hearings conducted in nine
11 sessions beginning on May the 8th, 2018, and
12 concluding on June the 8th, 2018.
13 Who is here on behalf of the
14 Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District?
15 MS. MYERS: Susan Myers.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Who is here on behalf of
17 the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers?
18 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Brandon Neuschafer and Saher
19 Valiani.
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Also present are Pamela
21 Lemoine of Black & Veatch concerning the rate
22 commission; and Lisa Stump and Brian Malone of
23 Lashly Baer, legal counsel to the rate commission.
24 Under the rate commission's operational
25 rules, no person shall be required to answer questions
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1 for a total period of more than three hours, and the
2 time shall be evenly divided among all the
3 participants desiring to ask questions.
4 Following questions by members of the rate
5 commission, I will attempt to allocate the time
6 equally among the participants and our legal counsel.
7 To the extent that the district, one of the
8 interveners, or legal counsel, has not completed
9 questions at the expiration of that person's allowed
10 time, and to the extent that time remains, such
11 persons shall be permitted to propound additional
12 questions until the three hours has expired.
13 Are there any procedural matters?
14 MS. STUMP: Mr. Chair?
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Ms. Stump.
16 MS. STUMP: Yes. The rules, the current
17 operational rules of the rate commission require that
18 an affidavit -- notarized affidavit be filed with the
19 testimony. However, that we -- the rate commission has
20 not recognized that in the past and we will eliminate
21 that from the future rules. But it is still in the
22 rules as of now. So I would request that the rate
23 commission consider waiving that requirement that
24 states that we'll have a notarized affidavit with all
25 testimony filed. It's under Section 38 of the
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1 operational Rules.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
3 Do any of the rate commissioners have any
4 questions regarding that?
5 (No response.)
6 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I would assume that a
7 motion to accept your recommendation would be in order
8 at this time.
9 MS. STUMP: That would be great.
10 COMMISSIONER CROYLE: I move that we accept
11 it.
12 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Second.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: The motion made and
14 seconded to waive the requirement for the notarized
15 affidavit. Any discussion on the motion?
16 (No response.)
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: All in favor signify by
18 saying aye.
19 THE COMMISSION: (Collectively) Aye.
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any opposed?
21 (No response.)
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Sustained. Motion
23 carries.
24 MS. STUMP: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
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1 I'd also like to, while we're in the
2 procedural matters, recognize that we've had a couple
3 additional rate commissioners join us since the roll
4 call. We've had Mr. Mahanta, Mr. Schoedel join us.
5 Anyone else come in on the telephone?
6 (No response.)
7 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
8 There will be -- I've been informed by the
9 district that we will be having lunch brought in for
10 the commissioners today so that we can continue to
11 serve the public and proceed with our hearing.
12 So with that, is there any -- are there any
13 other procedural matters?
14 (No response.)
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Being no further
16 procedural matters, Ms. Myers, would you like to make
17 an opening statement?
18 MS. MYERS: I would. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please proceed.
20 OPENING STATEMENT BY MS. MYERS
21 MS. MYERS: Good morning. My name is Susan
22 Myers, and I am the general counsel --
23 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Are there any other
24 parties wishing to -- wishing to make an opening
25 statement before we proceed?
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1 (No response.)
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: All right. With that,
3 please proceed.
4 MS. MYERS: Thank you.
5 Good morning. My name is Susan Myers, and I
6 am the general counsel for the Metropolitan St. Louis
7 Sewer District. I would like to thank all of you for
8 serving on the rate commission in this rate-setting
9 process and allowing me the opportunity to provide an
10 opening statement on behalf of the district.
11 As you heard in your orientation, MSD serves
12 about 1.3 million people with the service area of 520
13 square miles. MSD was formed pursuant to the Missouri
14 Constitution in 1954 and began operation in 1956. MSD
15 gains its power from the Missouri Constitution and the
16 MSD charter plan.
17 You are here today per Section 7.040 of the
18 MSD charter, whereby the rate commission is to review
19 and make recommendations to the board regarding all
20 proposed changes in wastewater rates, stormwater
21 rates, and tax rates, or changes in the structure of
22 the foregoing.
23 The current rate proposal before you
24 proposes a new stormwater capital rate to be used to
25 address flooding and erosion control issues. It is
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1 also important to understand which MSD rates and taxes
2 are not being changed with regard to their rate or
3 their structure, and, therefore, are not part of the
4 current rate proposal.
5 There are three existing revenue sources and
6 services that are not part of this rate proposal. One
7 is the wastewater rates. MSD wastewater rates and
8 services are not being changed in any way and,
9 therefore, are not included in the current rate
10 proposal. They will be the subject of a future rate
11 proposal scheduled to be delivered in 2019. Since the
12 consent decree only involves wastewater issues and is
13 funded by wastewater rates, the consent decree
14 requirements or funding is not applicable to the
15 current rate proposal.
16 Two: Stormwater Taxes for Regulatory
17 Issues. MSD's two-cent property tax used to fund
18 stormwater regulatory services and the services
19 themselves are not being changed in any way and,
20 therefore, are not part of the current rate proposal.
21 The current funding and structure should be sufficient
22 for the foreseeable future.
23 Three: Stormwater Taxes for the Operation
24 and Maintenance of the Public Stormwater System.
25 MSD's ten-cent property tax used to fund stormwater
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1 operation and maintenance services and the services
2 themselves are not being changed in any way and,
3 therefore, are not part of the current rate proposal.
4 The current funding and structure should be sufficient
5 for the foreseeable future. This is the tax recently
6 passed as Proposition S.
7 Throughout these technical conferences,
8 please keep the following three things in mind. One,
9 the current rate proposal before you proposes a new
10 stormwater capital rate to be used to address flooding
11 and erosion control issues. Two, this is the final
12 piece of the three-piece stormwater funding puzzle.
13 Remember, regulatory services and O&M services are
14 already covered by the two-cent and ten-cent property
15 taxes respectively. Three, the proposed rate is
16 currently scheduled to be presented to the voters for
17 their consideration in April of 2019.
18 It is the district's opinion that the
19 proposed stormwater rate change proposal imposes a
20 fair and reasonable burden on all classes of
21 ratepayers as the proposed rates were determined using
22 an impervious area measurement method.
23 The district's testimony today will provide
24 clarification regarding the detailed aspects of the
25 district's rate change proposal and demonstrate how
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1 the proposed rates are a result of our customers'
2 needs and wants. The order of appearance of MSD's
3 witnesses will be Brian Hoelscher, MSD Executive
4 Director; myself, MSD General Counsel;
5 Rich Unverferth, MSD Director of Engineering;
6 Marion Gee, MSD Director of Finance; Tom Beckley of
7 Raftelis Financial Consultants; and Henrietta Locklear
8 of Raftelis Financial Consultants serving as the
9 district's rate consultant.
10 This concludes my opening remarks. I ask
11 that my opening remarks be received by the rate
12 commission as Exhibit MSD 33. Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Myers.
14 No other parties wishing to make an opening
15 statement at this time?
16 Hearing none, Ms. Myers, are you ready to
17 present those persons for whom you filed district
18 testimony?
19 MS. MYERS: We are. Our first witness will
20 be Brian Hoelscher. And we'll go ahead and move up to
21 the front table.
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please proceed.
23 Good morning, Mr. Hoelscher.
24 MR. HOELSCHER: Good morning.
25 (The witness was duly sworn.)
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
2 Does any member of the rate commission have
3 questions for Mr. Hoelscher at this point?
4 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Can we reserve those
5 until after he testifies?
6 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, we will -- we will --
7 we will close with questions from the commissioners.
8 Mr. Neuschafer, do you have any questions of
9 Mr. Hoelscher on behalf of the Missouri Industrial
10 Consumers?
11 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
12 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please come forward and
13 present your questions.
14 MS. MYERS: You might want to check
15 your-all's microphone. I don't know if they're all on.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: It's not on. Now it is.
17 How about that? Nobody complained.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please proceed,
19 Mr. Neuschafer.
20 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Thank you.
21 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
22 Q Again, my name is Brandon Neuschafer, and
23 I'm appearing on behalf of the Missouri Industrial
24 Energy Consumers. We appreciate the opportunity to --
25 to engage in this discussion with MSD on rate proposal
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1 and the opportunity to ask some questions today on the
2 various individuals who've submitted testimony.
3 Mr. Hoelscher, my first question is, is
4 there an actual legal obligation for MSD to pursue
5 these capital improvements at this time?
6 A No, there's not.
7 Q Okay. Can you help us understand the
8 rationale behind why MSD chose now to -- to pursue
9 these capital improvements?
10 A So let's build it this way. I think it's a
11 recognized need throughout MSD's service area that the
12 flood -- flooding, localized flooding, river flooding
13 next to creeks and rivers and erosion is a problem.
14 When MSD was formed, one of the powers
15 available to MSD is to provide this kind of service
16 throughout its entire area, throughout the entire
17 service area. These problems are invariably problems
18 that are watershed-wide. It's not just next to the
19 local creeks and streams, and it's definitely not by
20 municipal boundaries.
21 MSD currently encompasses all the five major
22 watersheds within St. Louis County that go either north
23 to the Missouri River or -- or to the Meramec River or
24 to the Mississippi River except for those areas to the
25 west of 109 that flows to the west.
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1 If there's any entity that's in place, in
2 order to have a comprehensive program to address these
3 issues, it's MSD. I think it's fair in saying that the
4 municipalities that MSD serves are looking forward to
5 MSD giving the voters the opportunity to have MSD
6 provide these services throughout the entire district.
7 Q Thank you.
8 So I understood from Ms. Myers' opening
9 statement that next year you'll be pursuing an
10 additional wastewater rate proceeding; correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And then we were here three years ago about
13 the last wastewater rate case -- wastewater rate case?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Has -- there was certainly an increase in
16 the wastewater rates as a result of the proceedings
17 three years ago. Presumably, MSD will be asking for
18 an additional increase next year. Has there been any
19 consideration given to the number of rate increases
20 that have been imposed upon customers and how this
21 particular rate falls in line with those? For
22 example, are we increasing the rates too quickly and
23 too dramatically on customers and what are the results
24 of MSD's analysis of that issue, if any?
25 A I -- unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe
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1 we've done an analysis as to whether the rates are
2 going up too fast or not. That kind of analysis, the
3 majority of our revenues come from the wastewater rate
4 and that will be a point of discussion with the rate
5 commission next year when we look at the next four
6 years of rates for 2021 through 2024. They are the
7 largest portion of -- they're the largest portion of
8 the revenues and the services and they have the
9 largest impact on residents.
10 This is a relatively small -- and I think it's
11 identified in our rate proposal as a relatively small
12 portion of the cost of the overall services that MSD is
13 willing to perform. And in the end, understanding these
14 are not rates. While we can do all the analysis we
15 wish, actually a determination as to whether or not this
16 is too expensive does ultimately sit with the voters in
17 the district. It is a relatively small cost compared to
18 the rest of the services MSD provides, and it's going to
19 be a judgment to decide whether or not the problem is
20 bigger than a potential impact from the individual
21 ratepayers.
22 Q Thank you.
23 In your testimony, in Question 10, there's
24 some discussion about alternative capital-related
25 plans. Did MSD consider bond financing for any of
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1 this capital improvement program or a mix of bond
2 financing and, you know, additional charges to
3 customers?
4 A No, we did not.
5 Q Is there a reason that bond financing was
6 not considered?
7 A I am probably not the right person to answer
8 that. I'd suggest that Mr. Gee, I believe, would be
9 qualified to answer that when he testifies. But I
10 prefer to defer to him.
11 Q Okay. Thank you.
12 I believe, if I understand correctly, the
13 estimated capital improvement costs are about
14 $562 million?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Can you provide some background as to how
17 that number was calculated?
18 A The number was calculated from known
19 stormwater issues throughout the district. Some were
20 as large as very large erosion problems or very large
21 flooding problems, to an individual who is unhappy
22 with the amount of time stormwater sits in their
23 backyard after a storm. MSD doesn't necessarily know
24 those dots within that 562 million and made a value
25 judgment as to whether or not it's a legitimate issue,
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1 it's an issue in the eyes of the individuals who made
2 the complaint to us.
3 So -- but it is probably a pretty good measure
4 as to what the size of the issue is. We thought it was
5 important to at least get a grasp of what the potential
6 size was in trying to determine the appropriate annual
7 level to address the issue.
8 So I -- the only thing I want to assure you is
9 there is not a list of $562 million worth of projects
10 that we have identified. It's a price depending at
11 various levels of detail that we've put to the various
12 issues that have been presented to us by the ratepayers
13 in the municipalities.
14 Q Okay. So the 562 million represents your
15 analysis of the costs with respect to the known issues
16 and then some amount of additional costs that would be
17 associated with, as of yet, unknown?
18 A No. It's just the cost of the known issues.
19 Q Okay.
20 A So it's taking every issue that was out
21 there and doing a very quick analysis, in some cases,
22 just kind of what would it cost me to alleviate that
23 problem.
24 Q So that -- I'd like to ask about the very
25 quick analysis. What is -- I guess, what is the level
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1 of thought or analysis that went into determining the
2 cost of any particular project?
3 A Some of it could be -- and I'm giving very
4 simple examples here. Some of it could be very simple
5 as we can put an additional 100 feet of storm sewer
6 and an inlet in to get somebody's backyard flooding to
7 a storm sewer, and just a quick analysis of what it
8 costs to construct a 100 feet of sewer, to something
9 even much more detailed that may have at one time
10 under various funding scenarios even had initial
11 design started where we know what that problem is and
12 what that solution is and have some preliminary
13 estimates with some engineering in them. They vary
14 across the board.
15 Q And I believe at the opening meeting,
16 similar to what you're saying today, that the
17 estimates you described as rough and the engineering
18 spent maybe a few minutes looking at each project, I
19 get that may not be for every project.
20 A Correct.
21 Q But that's accurate?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. Is that the amount of analysis that
24 MSD would normally undertake in determining the cost
25 associated with a project?
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1 A In this case, it's an appropriate level of
2 analysis for the potential issues that have been
3 identified, yes.
4 Q For other capital projects MSD would
5 undertake, am I understanding that MSD would normally
6 go through a more detailed analysis, a lengthier
7 analysis?
8 A You could go through a more detailed
9 analysis. I think sticking strictly with the issues
10 we're addressing here, like I indicated, a lot of the
11 problems are issues that are presented by ratepayers,
12 and in the eyes of the ratepayers, it is a stormwater
13 problem. There's a lot of stormwater issues, but when
14 we go to address them, the new property owners or the
15 existing property owners no longer find those being
16 issues because of the cost of easements and the
17 disruption of construction, they just don't find being
18 a problem.
19 So the stormwater -- the list of stormwater
20 projects is a little different, again, as a service
21 than, for instance, going to a wastewater system and
22 identifying exact problems that are in violation of
23 legal requirements. So it is a somewhat different
24 world.
25 Q If the current numbers -- the current
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1 numbers are based on the known projects, and it
2 appears that we've got about a 20-year lifespan of
3 this larger overall project, if I understand the
4 papers correctly, how is MSD intending to account for
5 new issues or new complaints that may arise over the
6 next 20 years?
7 A Well, I think this will continuously change.
8 The list of stormwater, because of the way the data
9 comes in, the list of stormwater and what that backlog
10 looks like will change. A little more -- almost 10
11 years ago, we thought we had a billion dollars for the
12 stormwater issues. As you drive deeper to getting
13 problems done, problems don't become problems anymore.
14 Other ones add. It will be a very dynamic process.
15 I don't want to put -- I believe if you look
16 at the 562 million, I think we put a squiggly line --
17 hopefully we did by the 562 million. It is -- it is
18 a -- it's an estimate of what we think the size of the
19 issue -- what the size the public feels the issue is and
20 based on the stormwater complaints.
21 Q Okay.
22 A That number will change possibly every day,
23 depending on what kind of calls we get.
24 Q Okay. I understand -- Let me rephrase here.
25 If MSD were not to get the -- the entire
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1 amount that it is seeking here -- for example, I know
2 that the current intention is to assess this charge
3 against not-for-profits, as well as for-profit
4 entities and residential consumers. If, for some
5 reason, MSD were not to get the totality of the amount
6 that it's requesting, what happens at that point in
7 time? What's the plan?
8 A Because of the lack of detail in exactly
9 what a solution would be, right now MSD would plan
10 on -- and I think we answered this in one of our
11 responses. If that were to occur, I think there's a
12 15 percent reduction in revenues, and we would simply
13 reduce the annual program by 15 percent.
14 I would want to point out another
15 consideration by MSD is, if we came out of these
16 proceedings with not billing those individuals as
17 currently planned, there would be the question in MSD's
18 mind of if they're not paying the rate, should they be
19 provided the service. And that is something else MSD
20 would have to consider if that happened.
21 Q How -- and this is related to that, but it's
22 also a separate issue. How are you prioritizing the
23 projects that would be undertaken?
24 A And if you want to go in detail, I would --
25 I would suggest -- I can give you a high level, but
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1 Rich Unverferth would be the one if you want more
2 detail than this.
3 We have a process that's been in place for
4 quite awhile. It was based on public input. We do a
5 benefit cost analysis. There's a dollar value put to
6 the benefit of a project guided by the cost of the
7 project, and that ratio then determines which projects
8 get done first. That process was used to determine
9 which $67 million worth of projects we did in passing
10 the Proposition S.
11 You will find a list of some projects in the
12 rate proposal that have been identified in order to
13 identify the first couple years. That process was used
14 to determine which projects belonged in the early part
15 of the program. And then as we move forward, we
16 continue using that process year to year as the program
17 unfolds.
18 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Okay. I think that's all
19 I've got. Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
21 Ms. Stump, do you have questions for
22 Mr. Hoelscher at this time?
23 MS. STUMP: I do. Thank you.
24 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
25 Q Good morning, Mr. Hoelscher.
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1 A Good morning.
2 Q So we've done this many times before. So --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- you know that our role as counselor to
5 the rate commission is primarily to assist the
6 commission in the drafting of their report. So the
7 questions that I'm going to ask you today are really
8 designed to try to help clarify some of your testimony
9 and provide for the guidance in drafting the report.
10 A Okay.
11 Q And if I ask you a question that should go
12 to somebody else on your staff, just let me know.
13 A I guarantee I will do that.
14 Q Do you have your testimony and --
15 A Yes.
16 Q -- rate proposal? Great.
17 Just a general question first. Throughout
18 your testimony, you used -- and in the rate
19 proposal -- we've used the term "impervious area" -
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- repeatedly. How would you define that
22 term?
23 A As I described in the public, it is area
24 that doesn't absorb water, similar to a turf or a
25 grass area. And the examples I gave that are easily
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1 understood are rooftops, non-pervious driveways,
2 concrete sidewalks, back patios, those type areas
3 where the rain hits and then runs off.
4 Q Could it be an area where, for example,
5 there was a vacant house, and then the house is no
6 longer in existence, a grassy area, but it's hard?
7 Would that still be --
8 A So there's always things that fit in the
9 gray area. So I think what I gave you is the simple
10 starting point --
11 Q Yeah.
12 A -- for what's there. Just like we did 10
13 years ago, I think with the impervious rate, there are
14 going to be those situations that aren't clearly
15 defined and there will have to be a judgment call.
16 And we will make -- there is an appeal process that's
17 available to folks if they want to look into those
18 issues. There will be a lot of gray areas.
19 Q Okay. Thank you.
20 Let's look at your testimony for a minute.
21 On Question 11, which is on page 4 in lines 11 and 12,
22 you state, "That impervious area has less of an impact
23 on MSD's cost to operate and maintain its public storm
24 sewer system; whereas, it is the primary driver in the
25 cost to address flooding and erosion issues."
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1 Can you explain that a little bit further?
2 A Yeah. This is kind of an extension of the
3 testimony I gave during the Proposition S testimony.
4 I think I'll address it backwards. Flooding and
5 erosion is directly related to additional runoff and,
6 therefore, additional flow is going through creeks,
7 streams and filling up a lot of floodplains. So I
8 think it is no doubt the ideal measure to use to
9 determine proper revenue source for flooding and
10 erosion issues.
11 In my statement here with regard to
12 Proposition S, in my mind, as we go through these
13 processes -- and this is the way I think I testified
14 before -- if I take our existing public storm sewer
15 system and if I were to reduce by some amount the
16 impervious area of every property throughout the
17 district boundaries, our cost of stormwater O&M services
18 would not change. If people did things that -- you will
19 find that there are credits in here for reducing the
20 amounts of flows that go into the system, green
21 infrastructure and types of things, they do have an
22 impact in that they reduce flows from flooding erosion.
23 But by installing those, it would not impact the annual
24 cost for operation and maintenance of the storm sewer
25 system.
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1 That is -- that is the piece I think I was
2 wanting to make. The point -- the reason for putting
3 the point here was, was -- I think was really to express
4 how appropriate it is to use impervious area for
5 flooding and erosion. And then stating -- kind of
6 restating the issue I think I had with that kind of
7 methodology, funding only the operation and maintenance
8 of a public storm sewer system. One of the reasons I
9 believe I testified to that is our property tax was an
10 appropriate mechanism for Proposition S.
11 Q And let's go a little further with the -- on
12 O&M activities. Let's talk a little bit more about
13 that. So can you explain a little bit the nature of
14 the activities that are conducted under the current
15 district tax?
16 A Sure. Would be investigating storm sewers
17 on a regular basis -- whether it's teething or
18 cleaning -- teething and cleaning and repairing inlets
19 that collect stormwater; potential lining of those
20 storm sewers, if necessary, to maintain the integrity
21 of the system; to prevent items from stormwater or
22 soil from coming in through open joints that reflect
23 surface, those types of activities. And, quite
24 honestly, even during periods of draught when the
25 ground moves and the stormwater system moves, you have
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1 the potential of having problems existing there that
2 hopefully an investigation would identify and identify
3 things that need to be fixed.
4 So it's -- it's -- now, I'll make it much
5 clearer. So kind of as a subset of like what we've seen
6 in the wastewater system, it is identifying the
7 condition and then fixing the public storm sewer system,
8 be it storm sewers, cleaning inlets to make sure they
9 take flows. And probably the real world thing that has
10 first come out in part of our investigation is that
11 there are existing storm sewer systems that are public
12 that are out in the annexed area out in West County,
13 that the pipe was not necessarily concrete, but it was
14 corrugated metal pipe. That metal pipe is beginning to
15 deteriorate, rust, have problems. So another part of
16 the operation and maintenance cost is to go in and
17 replace those so they continue functioning.
18 Q Will the O&M activities that you've just
19 described, will those increase at all as a result of
20 the projects that are done with the new stormwater
21 capital rate?
22 A No, they will stay the same.
23 Q Okay.
24 A Well, there is a slight chance they could
25 increase if the solution of a capital problem is the
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1 installation of some more storm sewer. If we do have
2 more public facilities, if they're the solution to
3 some of these problems, they could go up a little bit.
4 But will they go up enough to have any kind of impact
5 on our service level or revenue needs, no.
6 Q Okay. I think you touched upon this, but
7 let's just kind of go over it again for the record.
8 So under the charter, you can only levy ten cents for
9 operation and maintenance. How -- can you explain how
10 this provision does or does not apply to the current
11 proposal?
12 A I think I'm going to leave that question to
13 Susan Myers as a follow-up.
14 Q Okay.
15 A Put in simple terms, it's not an operation
16 and maintenance cost. So if we do bill public
17 facilities as part of this process, the main operation
18 and maintenance of those will be funded through the
19 Proposition S ten-cent funds. There's a lot of work
20 we do that do not -- does not result in public
21 facilities, where we'll construct the project, make
22 sure it's maintained. Some erosion projects, for
23 instance. Make sure the project's maintained through
24 the warranty period and the result is not a facility
25 that's MSD-owned.
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1 Q And I guess that's where I'm trying to get
2 to. Is there -- is there a defining point at which
3 you separate what would be operation and maintenance
4 from what would be capital?
5 A Yeah. MSD's -- and Rich Unverferth may be
6 the one if you want to go deeper into this. MSD's
7 maintenance policy will indicate what is the public
8 infrastructure and what parts we are responsible for
9 the operation and maintenance of. And we'll continue
10 following that policy.
11 Q Do we have that maintenance policy in the
12 record? That's okay. If it's not an exhibit, I
13 mean --
14 A If it's not, we will make it. But we
15 believe it is. Rich will -- I think he'll -- he can
16 look it up and he'll send it over today.
17 Q Okay. Thank you.
18 So if I recall correctly from some of the
19 previous proceedings, though, you are also doing some
20 capital projects with the money from the O&M tax?
21 A I think there was a commitment -- we were
22 worried about or concerned, as we ramp up or as we go
23 in, there is the potential that ten cents is somewhat
24 more than what we needed, especially early in the
25 program, in order to fund operation and maintenance
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1 activities. So we may look at that, if there are
2 additional funds on an annual basis available, we
3 would use those to fund capital products.
4 We used some of that in Prop S to take care of
5 part of the list, the $67-million list that was proposed
6 with the passing of Proposition S. I believe it's about
7 $7 million of the total revenue over that four -- or
8 four-year period.
9 Right now, beyond that, the projection is that
10 all of the funds collected from Proposition S for
11 operation and maintenance of storm sewers beyond those
12 on that Prop S list will be needed for operation and
13 maintenance. And we don't plan on using in the
14 immediate future anymore of those funds for capital
15 projects.
16 Q Okay. Okay. Thank you.
17 Let's look at Question 8. In your
18 testimony, which is at the top of page 3, specifically
19 lines 3 through 5, you note that, "The primary purpose
20 of the stormwater capital rate is to provide such a
21 district-wide revenue source to make capital
22 improvements to address flooding and erosion issues
23 not involving the existing public storm sewer system."
24 I know you touched on this a little bit.
25 But can you explain that last clause a little bit,
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1 which I think may involve defining a little bit of
2 what is the public storm sewer system?
3 A So public storm sewer system -- and I'm
4 summating what's in the exhibit that was referenced
5 previously -- are stormwater inlets, stormwater
6 manholes, storm sewers, and those channels that still
7 exist in the district which can't be built anymore,
8 constructing concrete channels, concrete sidewalls,
9 and concrete bases, structural components need to be
10 maintained by somebody. MSD is taking responsibility
11 for those.
12 So, therefore, some of the examples of things
13 it doesn't include is ditches, other channels that are
14 natural, seminatural, in some cases channels that have a
15 retaining wall that holds back a parking lot next to the
16 creek, those are all privately maintained and not
17 maintained by MSD.
18 An exact list and much more description is in
19 the exhibit we submitted.
20 Q So would you say that the stormwater capital
21 rate is limited to nonpublic storm sewer projects?
22 A Correct. Again, just to clarify: Although,
23 if the solution is the creation of more public storm
24 sewers, that is -- that potentially could happen and
25 then we would take possession of those storm sewer
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1 built. And, therefore, the O&M of that -- the
2 operation and maintenance of those facilities would
3 then fall under Prop S revenues.
4 Q But you are -- you just testified earlier,
5 too, that that would be a small amount?
6 A Yes, it -- it is so relatively small that we
7 didn't even consider it in setting any of our rates.
8 Q Okay. Thank you.
9 All right. Let's switch a little bit.
10 Question 11, page 4, you refer -- on lines 15 and 16,
11 you refer to the "Customer assistance program in the
12 context of the stormwater capital rate imposing a fair
13 and reasonable burden."
14 How do you think this program helps make it
15 fair and reasonable?
16 A We believe MSD's -- currently has a customer
17 assistance program, its wastewater rate, and we feel
18 it's appropriate for MSD to take the position that
19 there are those individuals within our district, low
20 income, who may not have the ability to share the full
21 burden as everybody else does for -- for revenue
22 requirements. We are going to carryover the customer
23 assistance program that currently exists in the
24 wastewater rate, but also apply the stormwater rate.
25 And so those individuals who qualify for the customer
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1 assistance program will pay a rate that's one-half of
2 that that would be charged to everyone else.
3 Q And the same question on line 21 where
4 you're discussing why it's fair and reasonable to
5 charge all customers, both public and private. You
6 state that, "If at some point in time after the
7 stormwater capital rate has been billed to these
8 customers, MSD is unable to continue billing them,"
9 and you discussed that a little bit with
10 Mr. Neuschafer. But why do you say -- why do you say
11 this part, "If MSD is unable to continue billing
12 them"? What do you mean, and also what do you mean by
13 "these customers"?
14 A So what I wanted to convey to the rate
15 commission was our kind of policy position, in that we
16 do right now believe legally, and for policy position,
17 that all the customers that we've indicated, the rate
18 proposal should be charged for rate proposal.
19 We envisioned there's two ways that maybe that
20 would not happen. One I did discuss previously is, if
21 out of these proceedings, we decide they should not pay
22 the cost of those, MSD staff would then have the
23 question if they don't pay the rate, should they receive
24 the service.
25 The other thing that's always possible, and I
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1 believe I've experienced this in the past, there could
2 be, for instance, a legal process that occurs after
3 we're done, where, in some way, those entities were
4 judged not to have to pay this rate. And what I was
5 trying to convey to the rate commission that MSD's plans
6 in that contingency, if that were to occur, is we would
7 just simply take the decrease of approximately
8 15 percent in revenues, not ask for an increase in
9 rates, and we would just move forward with a slightly
10 smaller program, 15 percent the size of what we're
11 currently proposing.
12 I think it was just recognizing that that has
13 the potential of occurring in the future and letting you
14 know that MSD has thought about that, and our opinion is
15 if that is to occur, we would not plan on coming back to
16 the rate commission to adjust the rate in order to
17 account for that. We think we could -- we could live
18 with that kind of change, if necessary.
19 Q Okay. Okay. I want to talk for a minute
20 about the memo that you submitted, Exhibit MSD 30A.
21 Do you have that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q I know there's been some confusion regarding
24 the consent decree and its applicability to this rate
25 change. And I think your memo is helpful in
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1 clarifying that, but I think particularly for those
2 commissioners who haven't been involved in wastewater,
3 could you -- they might like a little more explanation
4 as to what you mean by the consent decree only
5 involving wastewater issues.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Can you just explain that a little bit more?
8 A Sure. Yeah. And this will start -- I think
9 in my original statement, I assured you you would get
10 the opportunity to look like this. And I think as we
11 stated, right now we're planning around February 2019
12 to bring the next wastewater rate proposal to you.
13 The consent decree is a judgment and agreement
14 with us and EPA, the Department of Justice, and the
15 Coalition for the Environment, to meet the clean -- the
16 requirements to Clean Water Act -- to meet it under a
17 certain schedule with certain milestones.
18 All of that work involves deficiencies in our
19 wastewater collection system. Not the plants, but in
20 the collection system. All of the work in those
21 wastewater collection systems, be they separate sanitary
22 sewers or combined sewers, are funded through wastewater
23 rate. So, therefore, by extension, it is only the
24 wastewater rate and only revenues from the wastewater
25 rate that the consent decree would have any impact --
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1 that that's the only place you would have any impact.
2 There are so -- and one of the reasons we are
3 bringing back in 2021, this -- this commission took a
4 look at our proposed rate from 2017 through 2020
5 previously for wastewater, set those rates, keeping in
6 mind what the requirements for the consent decree were,
7 those rates now expire in the summer of 2020.
8 Therefore, that's why we'll be coming back to you to
9 discuss what should be -- the rate should be 2021
10 through 2024. It is in those rates we'll be presenting
11 to you the justification for those rates. Major
12 justification is going to be requirements that are in
13 the consent decree.
14 Q Okay. The other part of your memo talks
15 about the two other parts of the stormwater revenue
16 sources, and you refer to the stormwater tax
17 regulatory issues and the stormwater tax for O&M, both
18 of which you note are not being changed in any way
19 and, therefore, are not a part of the current rate
20 proposal.
21 But you're familiar with the -- with the
22 rate commission's obligations under the charter. And
23 I guess I'd like a little explanation, if you don't
24 mind, on -- you know, like one of the things that the
25 rate commission has to consider is whether the
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1 rates -- recommended changes in rates where the cost
2 of operation and maintenance or such amounts as may be
3 required to cover emergencies and anticipated
4 delinquencies. Don't you think that the rate
5 commission has to at least consider and understand the
6 other parts of the stormwater rate in order to make
7 these determinations with respect to the current
8 proposed rate change?
9 A I quite honestly don't think there's much of
10 a link. I would offer as part of the stormwater O&M
11 tax, that was -- and I think the information is
12 available -- was deliberated a couple years ago as
13 part of this rate commission, answering all those
14 questions.
15 This particular piece is a little bit
16 different. If there is information within those that
17 are pertinent to these proceedings, sure, we'll provide
18 that. I think you'll find in our rate proposal the one
19 thing that we believe is really important, and we do
20 show that it is -- when we show the impact to the
21 customer overall of what we're proposing, we do include
22 the financial burden for all the programs we have in
23 place. The wastewater, as well as the two existing
24 stormwater.
25 I guess I'd have to hear what tie somebody
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1 believed there was between what we're proposing here and
2 what comes -- what services are being provided out of
3 the stormwater regulatory issue or the O&M for the
4 public stormwater system. I think the only piece we did
5 identify and we addressed is there is a potential for
6 this new rate to result in the construction of
7 facilities that might become public and that we might
8 operate and maintain. We made a statement that we don't
9 see that changing any of the burden for the operation
10 and maintenance piece.
11 So I think if it's pertinent, sure, and I
12 think we've tried to do that as part of the rate
13 proposal, especially wrapped around the financial burden
14 to the individual ratepayers.
15 Q Thank you. I just wanted to clarify -- I
16 mean, because your memo was great but very brief -- in
17 that there may be circumstances in which the rate
18 commission wants to understand all of the facets of
19 the stormwater rate in order to make its determination
20 on this.
21 A And we don't have any problem providing
22 that.
23 Q Okay. One of the things that the rate
24 commission -- and I just mentioned this -- has to
25 consider is whether the proposal provides for funds in
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1 such amounts as may be required to cover emergencies
2 and anticipated delinquencies for stormwater services.
3 I'm a little concerned under -- and I guess
4 I'd just like for you to explain this -- under the
5 second discovery request, which is 31A, Question 20:
6 "The district states it will not have a minimum fund
7 balance for the capital rate fund."
8 So what will happen -- do you foresee there
9 ever being an emergency-type situation for these types
10 of projects with the flooding and erosion issues, or
11 is that something that you wouldn't anticipate there
12 being an emergency?
13 A If by "emergency," we mean is there
14 something that needs to be done quickly -- and I
15 assume that's the "emergency" you're talking about.
16 There are other options available to the district. A
17 delay for a small period in current plans for that
18 year or the next year, moving back a couple months to
19 make sure the funding is available for something that
20 becomes an emergency.
21 I know in the past, we have -- where those
22 type of issues have come up, we can internally borrow
23 from other funds knowing that we're going to pay them
24 back later through other revenues. So there are other
25 mechanisms for capital projects. And, again, I'm
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1 responding only to this proposal. There is room
2 financially for us to make sure we can address
3 emergencies in other ways without changing the proposed
4 rate.
5 I think it's real important in this particular
6 program, we don't want to in any way look like we're
7 collecting more funds than needed. But I will tell you
8 we do have the mechanisms. If you have some emergency
9 comes up, there are financial mechanisms where we can
10 either move it up and delay some other projects, or even
11 doing some internal borrowing between our own funds
12 internally to make sure we can provide a service in an
13 emergency situation.
14 Q So is that your reason of why this capital
15 rate fund won't have a minimum fund balance because
16 you don't -- you answer the question.
17 A We think -- well, so, I mean, it is kind of
18 going to the risk part. We think the biggest risk in
19 the rev -- one of the biggest risks in the revenue we
20 collect is not taking in anything more than what we
21 need. And we thought it was really important to make
22 sure we only collected the revenue that we thought we
23 needed on an annual basis.
24 Q Okay. Thank you.
25 Okay. In the first discovery Exhibit 30B,
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1 Question 56, on page 15, where we talk about fair and
2 reasonable, it refers back to your testimony which was
3 that the level of the -- "The level of flooding and
4 erosion services being proposed is directly impacted
5 by the increased rate and volume of stormwater runoff
6 created by impervious area on each customer's
7 property." Can you explain this further to me?
8 A Which -- we're on question -- which one?
9 Q We're on Question 56, page 15, on the
10 discovery, and it refers back to your testimony.
11 A Yeah. And I think that is somewhat similar
12 to the response that was given before is why
13 impervious rate.
14 Q Okay.
15 A And I think -- besides just my understanding
16 of the issue as an engineer, I think even past
17 testimony and evidence provided to this commission in
18 past proposals have indicated that that is simply a
19 fair and reasonable way to distribute the cost of the
20 program, is by the amount of impervious area.
21 Q And under your proposal in determining the
22 impervious area, the district is proposing the use of
23 the ERUs?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So can you explain a little bit about how
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1 the ERU would bear a direct relationship to the
2 services provided?
3 A I'm going -- and I'm not sure who the
4 individual is. I think I asked that we refer that
5 to -- and we can let you know -- it's either Marion or
6 one of the technical experts.
7 Q Okay.
8 A There is a mix between -- for instance, we
9 are not measuring, somewhat similar as we did 10 years
10 ago, every square foot of impervious area, all 500,000
11 properties. There is -- there is a sweet spot where
12 you put a program in that's affordable that's also
13 applicable and fair and reasonable. I think I'd leave
14 that to those experts to explain that.
15 Q Okay. Thank you.
16 One final question.
17 A That's okay.
18 Q If the voters reject the new stormwater
19 capital rate, although you mentioned some alternatives
20 in your testimony, just to be clear, there is no
21 alternative that is formally a part of this rate
22 change proposal? Would you regroup and come back to
23 the rate commission?
24 A We would -- any future action would depend
25 on the input we get from the public. You can imagine
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1 these are -- you know, this is a lot different. If
2 we -- if we go to a vote and we lose 90 percent to 10
3 percent, we might not see MSD coming to you in the
4 very near -- in the very near future. If we lose
5 50 -- if we win -- lose 50.1 to 49.9, more public
6 communications, more public input, more public
7 discussion, might lead us to bring something to the
8 rate commission. There are no plans to turn around
9 the next year and do something with this, outside of
10 the existing taxing areas in small parts of the
11 district that currently have a tax rate set at zero.
12 It's going to depend on what the results are in
13 April of 2019, and then what feedback we get from the
14 public afterwards.
15 Q So there's no alternative that's part of
16 this proposal?
17 A That's not -- no, as part of this proposal.
18 MS. STUMP: No further questions.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
20 Now I'll ask -- I will ask if any of the
21 rate commissioners have questions for the witness, and
22 remind you to identify yourself for the court
23 reporter.
24 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: I do, Mr. Chairman.
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Brockmann.
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1 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN:
2 Q Brian, you mentioned earlier this morning
3 that you thought the municipalities were looking
4 forward to MSD participating in your proposal
5 providing capital for erosions or flooding --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- throughout the City and County. I also
8 know that some municipalities have been really
9 spending a lot of money on flooding studies within
10 your municipality. Were those studies part of your
11 known assembly of all these projects?
12 A Yes, they were. And I'll expand slightly,
13 and it's been going on quite awhile. Some
14 municipalities have different mechanisms of
15 communicating with MSD on stormwater issues. Some
16 have a very formalized process, which can include
17 stormwater plans and communicating to the district,
18 those issues are put into the proposed program.
19 Others are a little simpler, in that they're just a
20 list of complaints. Say on a quarterly basis, they'll
21 report to MSD. There are some municipalities who
22 don't communicate stormwater issues to us. But any
23 source we have, be it from the public or from those
24 residents, is in that pot of $562 million of issues.
25 Q Okay. Thank you.
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1 You mentioned you've got an evaluation
2 process for each of these projects, but there's also
3 these things called storm events and things like that.
4 How do you take a storm event and compare that with
5 the erosion or the flooding that's going on? I mean,
6 is there some limit that you don't go above a 50-year,
7 20-year, 100-year? Or how does that play into
8 things --
9 A So I'm going to give you a very general
10 answer. I know that the lower -- or the higher the
11 probability of recurrence results in a higher benefit
12 number. So it's a result of preventing 5-year
13 flooding has a higher benefit number than 50-year
14 flooding. Beyond that, I think if you've got any
15 questions about the detailed process, I would ask that
16 you wait till Rich Unverferth is up here to answer
17 those questions.
18 Q Okay. This rate proposal, again, asks for a
19 4 percent bad debt, or assumed 4 percent stormwater
20 bad debt. The rate commission always deals with this
21 and all the different rate proposals, whether it's
22 wastewater or stormwater. So could you -- I don't
23 expect you have this, maybe you do. So if we went to
24 the past four rate increases, what was the bad debt
25 percentage in the final budget adopted by the MSD
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1 board of trustees? And then what was the actual
2 experience that you realized afterwards?
3 A So two things. One, I will give you a
4 general answer. We will try and gather that data.
5 And when Marion Gee, when he comes up here, maybe he
6 will give you a more detailed answer.
7 But of the things that has a special impact
8 here that we don't have good past data on, with this
9 rate proposal, we will be billing people for this
10 service who receive no other bill from MSD, and we will
11 be billing them at a rate of $2.25 per month. So
12 that -- that is part of a delinquency equation that
13 doesn't exist in our other revenue sources. So you'll
14 find there's other considerations that -- that we got,
15 too. And, therefore, again, that's one of the reasons I
16 think I'd like to leave you -- Marion Gee to answer that
17 question in detail as to how they built that up and how
18 they compared it against proposals.
19 Q A little further to that question. So you
20 would -- you're basically establishing your rate
21 proposal on and it's people that actually pay the rate
22 are going to be providing the coverage for those who
23 do not pay. But, yet, you're indicating that you have
24 flexibility in your program to reduce the amount of
25 services that you provide. Like, for example, you
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1 mentioned the not-for-profits do not get charged this
2 rate, you would cut back on your scope. Why instead
3 of including this in your rate request, why not just
4 say, "Okay. We're going to reduce our scope and not
5 have this as part of the rate request?"
6 A I'm not sure, Paul, I understand your
7 question. I may have answered the question originally
8 incorrect.
9 Q So the bad debt means that you're charging
10 additional fee, or percentage, for the people that pay
11 the rate; correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q To cover the people that don't pay the rate?
14 A Yes.
15 Q I'm saying instead of having this in your
16 rate model, why not eliminate it and just say, "Okay.
17 You're only going to do the scope of services for
18 which funds are received compared to you were going to
19 do the same for the not-for-profits who were not
20 charged?"
21 A So I would differentiate between those who
22 are not charged and those who are delinquent in their
23 bill and we may take delinquency-type actions. I
24 think I'd like to feel more comfortable with
25 Marion Gee could have that discussion with you as to
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1 the difference between those two.
2 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Okay. That's all I
3 have.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Brockmann.
5 Are there -- yes, Mr. Schoedel.
6 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Thank you.
7 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL:
8 Q It may be in the proposal, but can you
9 clarify, for the proposed capital projects, will those
10 end up being public or private maintained and owned
11 afterwards?
12 A So what we discussed, and it's in that
13 exhibit, if the solution results in facilities that
14 are mandated to become public facilities by our
15 charter and our policies, again, the most easy example
16 is to solve somebody's backyard flooding, we put in an
17 inlet and a 100 feet of storm sewer, that will become
18 a public facility. If we were to go into an area
19 where there is erosion and bio-stabilized the site
20 which doesn't result in that, or if we were to buy
21 people out of floodplains and then turn the property
22 over to the municipalities to maintain, those would
23 not result in assets that are operated and maintained
24 by the district. So it will be a mix, depending on
25 the solution.
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1 Q So Proposition S and the fees for O&M are
2 anticipated to take care of all these additional
3 public storms that you will be putting in over the
4 next 20 years?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Yeah. And I think, as we mentioned,
8 compared to the size of the current system and where
9 we think we'll be with the O&M of the existing public
10 storm sewer system, we don't see that any additional
11 revenues will be required to absorb those additional
12 facilities.
13 Q So that almost seems to indicate that you
14 have excess funds from Proposition S right now?
15 A I would put it to you that, remember, when
16 we started Proposition S, we also had facilities that
17 hadn't been maintained for 30 years. I think you're
18 going to find there's going to be some upfront
19 expenditures, and Mr. Sprague, in our operations
20 department, is doing now. They're requiring immediate
21 attention one -- every one, every two years that
22 eventually will go away and become more of a multiyear
23 investigation. So I anticipate those coming together.
24 Do I think we're collecting too much funding?
25 Right now, the numbers don't show that we are. Could we
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1 possibly in the future? Mr. Gee has heard me say this:
2 If the operation and maintenance needs actually fall
3 below the ten-cent, we would go to our board and request
4 something on an annual basis, something less than
5 ten-cent if we didn't need the money.
6 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Mahanta.
8 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MAHANTA:
9 Q You might have explained it already, but
10 part of this -- this rate request, if it is approved,
11 but you collect more than you need, is there a way
12 of -- how are you going to utilize that?
13 A Well, I think the simple answer in this
14 particular rate is we have 562 -- an estimate of
15 $562 million of issues for construction. The
16 $30 million revenue will result in 18- or $20 billion
17 a year of construction dollars. So I don't know the
18 issue of having too much will be the issue. I think
19 the issue will be making sure we spend it fast enough.
20 If there is a delay in the stormwater program -- with
21 our experience, in the past, stormwater programs,
22 oftentimes it is getting agreement and the
23 communication with the individual residents who are
24 involved in this stormwater project, helping them
25 understand why we no longer build straight concrete
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1 channels and giving their backyard up, the fact that
2 that's not allowed, that takes time. Easement
3 acquisition. There are things that require a lot more
4 communications in the stormwater project.
5 So I'm only indicating that that may delay
6 things, but that doesn't mean the project isn't coming
7 up and the money collected in a given year. It might
8 get billed nine months later and moved to a future year
9 but it will get -- it will get spent.
10 COMMISSIONER MAHANTA: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Bresnan.
12 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRESNAN:
13 Q The question I have is due to urban sprawl
14 and stuff, your sewer system, how old is it? The
15 maintenance on it, you know, is it an ongoing -- I
16 know it's an ongoing thing, but is there a greater
17 need in certain areas than others, that you have to
18 concentrate on that first?
19 A So we're talking about now the service being
20 provided by this proposed rate?
21 Q Right.
22 A It's -- if you take a look -- if you recall
23 the presentation I gave you, we kind of gave you a
24 spot map of where we've heard of issues, right.
25 You'll find it's located throughout the district. You
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1 will find in areas I mentioned earlier that it had
2 localized extra taxing capacity, that there's maybe
3 what you would see a little more concentration of
4 dots. The reason being, there was funding to take
5 care of issues, that probably generates questions.
6 If you go, especially west of 270, we've had
7 an ongoing discussion with a lot of property owners, and
8 also in South County, about, yes, we know you have a
9 problem, there is no funding. That tends to lend itself
10 towards less comments. You'll also see that in the City
11 of St. Louis where -- whether it's a number of inlets,
12 some of the open channels that are available, there
13 are -- there are things in the City as well.
14 It is district-wide. I mean, it's impacting
15 everybody, this particular issue. So we're not going to
16 be concentrating on any certain area. We're going to
17 use our benefit cost analysis as the basis for
18 determining which one goes first. And based right
19 now -- and I might leave this to Rich Unverferth, but I
20 think in the proposal, we have shown in the first couple
21 years what those projects would be and where they are,
22 and I think you'll find them located throughout the
23 district.
24 COMMISSIONER BRESNAN: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Goss.
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1 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
2 Q Brian, you mentioned a cost benefit --
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I don't think that's on.
4 Q (By Commissioner Goss) Brian, you mentioned
5 a cost benefit analysis in your testimony. Could you
6 explain that in a little more detail?
7 A I'll give you the general again and then I'm
8 going to request that you ask Rich Unverferth that
9 question. And I'm sure he's back diligently preparing
10 for this.
11 But every problem has a dollar value. If your
12 fence in your backyard is going in the creek, it has a
13 lower dollar value. If your house is ready to go in the
14 creek, it has a -- not dollar value -- benefit value.
15 If your house is ready to go in the creek, it's a higher
16 benefit value. You take those benefits, add them
17 together, divide by the cost of the solution, you came
18 up with a benefit cost number, and the one with the
19 highest ratio is the one we do first. That's a very
20 general description. Anything more detailed than that,
21 I would ask you save for Rich Unverferth.
22 Q There's an Exhibit J and Exhibit K in the
23 documents that were produced, and they relate to a
24 prioritization system that MSD uses. Is that part of
25 that cost benefit analysis?
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1 MR. UNVERFERTH: It is. Well, I'm holding it
2 up.
3 MR. HOELSCHER: Well, let me make sure it's
4 the right one.
5 MR. UNVERFERTH: Yeah, that -- yes, it is.
6 A So, yeah, Exhibits J and K are the details.
7 Q (By Commissioner Goss) So if I want to
8 understand Exhibit K, that's a Rich Unverferth
9 question?
10 A I would strongly suggest you ask Rich, yes.
11 Q Okay. Fair enough. And to ask questions
12 about how that system was developed, that also I
13 should direct to Rich?
14 A Rich is very knowledgeable about that. Yes.
15 Q And so this would have been -- this would
16 have been the point system that was being used to
17 determine the prioritization of projects and to help
18 arrive at this overall cost of projects or not --
19 A Yeah.
20 Q -- it isn't related?
21 A The overall cost is just a list of the
22 issues we have. How we would go forward with the
23 prioritization process you have listed in those
24 exhibits would be used to determined who goes first.
25 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Okay. Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any questions from any of
2 the other rate commissioners?
3 Mr. Palans, anything?
4 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I
5 might ask, I'd like to inquire of the witness about the
6 source of funds.
7 TELEPHONIC QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER PALANS:
8 Q And if I understand, the budgeted projects
9 that have been identified require a $562 million
10 number for completion, with the source of funds
11 derived from OMCI funds, a regulatory fund, and then
12 O&M fund. Is that correct, Mr. Hoelscher?
13 A No, sir. It would only -- it would only be
14 paid for out of the fund that we're proposing -- the
15 proposed fund that we're proposing right now.
16 Q And no external borrowing are contemplated;
17 is that correct?
18 A Well, no external expenditures are
19 contemplated. As I explained earlier, if we do need
20 to borrow funds in an emergency, we might do that and
21 then pay back. But right now, barring any kind of
22 emergency and a temporary solution like that, any of
23 the services we're proposing would only be funded out
24 of the rate proposal that you have in front of you
25 today.
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1 Q And you do include incentive programs to
2 provide customers with an opportunity to reduce their
3 effective rates for use of construction features or
4 other developments like rain gardens, cisterns, or
5 things like that sort; is that correct?
6 A Yes. There are -- there are both incentive
7 and credit programs, I believe, in the proposal.
8 Q And there are no third-party fund, whether
9 through debt offerings or customer contributions,
10 contemplated to supplement the district's sources of
11 funding; is that right?
12 A I would ask to get a definitive answer from
13 Mr. Gee. But, no, I don't believe MSD has any
14 alternative sources of funding of any size to assist
15 us with the program.
16 Q And I believe you stated that the sizing of
17 the problem, the stormwater problem, is a $562 million
18 number consisting of 483 projects. As I understand
19 it, this is based on a conceptual in nature and a
20 minimal amount of detailed information. Is that your
21 understanding?
22 A Much of it, yes, that's correct.
23 Q So that -- and each of the projects is
24 prioritized based upon the severity of the problem and
25 the cost benefit analysis; is that correct?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Has the district considered implementation
3 of a program which would allow third-party sources
4 from effective customers, whether it's residential or
5 commercial property owners or municipalities who are
6 impacted by the flooding or erosion problems, to
7 contribute funds dedicated to a remediation of
8 specific CIRP projects?
9 A So -- and beyond what I'm going to give you
10 here, if you have more detail beyond that, I'd ask you
11 ask Rich Unverferth. But MSD's position on that is
12 for stormwater projects that we have a correct setup,
13 if an outside source such as -- and more traditionally
14 we see a municipality -- wishes to contribute funds to
15 speed up a project that's already programmed, we will
16 allow them to do that. Usually the mechanism it looks
17 like is a municipality in a real world instance will
18 pay for the engineering of their stormwater issue,
19 which would then sometimes include part of MSD's
20 project, and then MSD during construction would
21 reimburse them for our costs.
22 By policy and I -- right now MSD sees no
23 reason to change it -- the idea of allowing more
24 affluent residents and more affluent and economically
25 healthy communities to buy forward MSD funds, you know,
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1 at the disbenefit of those communities who don't fall in
2 those categories, we don't allow outside funding to
3 change the benefit cost ratio that -- that is
4 maintained, and that's MSD's current policy.
5 Q Thank you.
6 I would like to just briefly follow up on
7 your statement that was identified in the memo that
8 you filed, which was MSD 30A. It references that the
9 consent decree only involves wastewater issues and is
10 funded by wastewater rates, and the consent decree
11 requirements is not -- is not relevant to the current
12 rate proposal. But I believe this is reiterated in
13 various responses in your testimony.
14 I pulled a copy of the consent decree, and I
15 note that I should -- Let me rephrase that.
16 I took a look at your website first, and
17 your website references, and I quote, "Throughout the
18 district service area, there are hundreds of points
19 where a combination of stormwater and wastewater
20 discharges into local waterways from the sewer systems
21 during moderate to heavy rainstorms." That's in your
22 website; correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And these sewer overflow points act as
25 release valves when too much stormwater enters the
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1 sewer system, and without them, our community could
2 experience thousands of basement backups and/or
3 extensive street flooding." That's also on your
4 website?
5 A Correct.
6 Q I note that the consent decree on page 3
7 states that MSD's long-term control plan includes a
8 $100 million commitment to implementing green
9 infrastructure constructed projects that redirects
10 stormwater from reaching sewers by capturing and
11 diverting it to locations where it's detained,
12 infiltrated into the ground, evaporated, taken up by
13 plants, or reused.
14 So I don't think it's a fair statement to
15 say that the consent decree is irrelevant, do you?
16 A Yes, sir, I do. I think my explanation will
17 be as follows: You need to understand from -- while
18 we are describing to people what is causing an
19 overflow, I think it needs to be understood from both
20 a regulatory perspective and a funding perspective
21 that once stormwater and wastewater mix, they are a
22 wastewater. And that's how it is treated. So when
23 our combined sewer overflows activate within the city,
24 a large portion of those originally were stormwater, a
25 large portion of that flow, with much less being
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1 wastewater. But it is treated as a wastewater
2 overflow.
3 Now, there -- it depends on how they're set
4 up. That -- that extra flow comes from the fact that
5 the combined systems in the city were meant to collect
6 both stormwater and wastewater in the same pipe, but
7 once those mix, they become wastewater.
8 With regard to the green infrastructure
9 program, one of the solutions to address this wastewater
10 issue of overflows or combined sewer system, one
11 strategy is to reduce the amount of stormwater that
12 enters the wastewater system and it generates more
13 wastewater. So the green infrastructure program that
14 we've put in place to address the regulatory issue of
15 sanitary, sewer, or combined sewer overflows, is a
16 regulatory issue that's paid for through wastewater
17 rates. That is a wastewater regulatory issue.
18 So any of those issues that we have mentioned
19 in the combined sewer areas specifically, since you
20 mentioned the long-term control plan where stormwater is
21 either being held up or removed from the combined sewer
22 system, is a wastewater issue that's paid for out of the
23 wastewater program. You will not find that the separate
24 sewer area -- where there's a separate combined and a
25 separate stormwater sewer, you won't find us using the
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1 same green program to hold off the stormwater runoff of
2 a property because it doesn't, in and of itself, result
3 in any kind of wastewater overflow or overflow point.
4 So the systems are a little bit different.
5 So it's a fine issue, and I know it's a fine
6 line to describe, but there aren't any of the
7 projects -- could there always be side benefits? Yeah,
8 maybe. But you won't find that any of the rate that
9 we're looking for here for stormwater, for flooding and
10 erosion, will be used to address any issues or resolve
11 any commitments that are in the consent decree.
12 Q So the stormwater and wastewater issues are
13 truly related, are they not?
14 A From a regulatory and a rate perspective,
15 no. If you stood at the beginning of a pipe and saw
16 something originate as stormwater and something
17 originate as wastewater, then, yeah, I guess you could
18 say they are. But in our world, wastewater
19 problems -- any of the combined or separate sanitary
20 system, stormwater getting in, combining with those
21 flows and becoming wastewater, is a wastewater issue
22 that's covered by both our wastewater rate and, to a
23 large part, by our consent decree.
24 Q And the $100 million dollar commitment to
25 implement green infrastructure in the consent decree
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1 relating to stormwater, that is something that will be
2 funded under the wastewater portion of the consent
3 decree?
4 A Yeah, it's a wastewater activity that is
5 meant to decrease overflow volumes to the combined
6 sewer system into the Mississippi River and to address
7 river quality issues in the Mississippi River, it
8 helps mitigate the overflow. There was a component
9 put in place in lieu of something close to a
10 $2 billion potential tunneling project to capture
11 flows like we're having to do in the rest of the
12 district. It was thought that by holding this back
13 and mitigating the impacts of those overflows in the
14 Mississippi River, we could approach the current water
15 quality requirements within the Mississippi River. So
16 it is being all paid for out of the wastewater drain.
17 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have no
18 further questions.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans.
20 Any -- Mr. Goss?
21 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Yeah, Mr. Chairman.
22 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
23 Q I wanted to follow up on the stormwater
24 credit program that's in your proposal. Is there any
25 way for homeowners associations to take advantage of
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1 that credit program?
2 A So I would ask that anything on those --
3 THE WITNESS: Give me a hand, guys. Who's
4 going to answer it?
5 A Rich Unverferth and possibly the experts
6 after Rich Unverferth. I think the details, that
7 they'd be the appropriate people to ask.
8 Q (By Commissioner Goss) So you don't know
9 whether the homeowners association --
10 A I can give a high-level general -- I can
11 give a high-level general answer, and I don't know
12 that I -- I just want to make sure we ask the right
13 questions to the right people. They're the experts on
14 that. I prefer they answer.
15 Q Well, I understand that. The question I
16 have -- and the reason I'm asking about the homeowners
17 associations is I don't believe MSD bills them; is
18 that correct?
19 A The homeowners associations for?
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Anything.
21 Q (By Commissioner Goss) A subdivision
22 association, and trust indenture where you have
23 trustees that are maintaining a detention basin, or an
24 incorporated subdivision.
25 A No, I believe we -- we bill the property
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1 owners, I believe.
2 Q So the stormwater credit program then
3 wouldn't be available to trustees of the subdivision
4 who are maintaining or trying to improve a detention
5 basin?
6 A I would refer to the other individuals.
7 It's a detail of the question, and I can't give an
8 appropriate response to.
9 Q Do you have any evaluation of the
10 effectiveness of the program that, in your testimony,
11 said 200 customers took advantage of over several
12 years, whether that's an effective program when only
13 200 customers took advantage of it?
14 A Where in my testimony did I say that?
15 Q It's in appendix J of the proposal.
16 A Oh, in the rate proposal. I would have you
17 ask Rich Unverferth that question, if you would.
18 Q So he'd be the party who's evaluating the
19 effectiveness of the credit program?
20 A Whatever details we have around that program
21 would be starting with Rich Unverferth.
22 Q I really wasn't asking about the details. I
23 was asking about whether you, as the director, thought
24 it was an effective program.
25 A And that's a detail I don't have the answer
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1 to.
2 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Okay. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions from
4 any of the other rate commissioners?
5 (No response.)
6 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
7 Q I have a couple questions, Mr. Hoelscher.
8 In terms of Mr. Neuschafer's comments about the impact
9 of this rate case on future rate cases, and this may
10 be more of a question for what the trustee's flavor
11 is, that as we move forward into 2020 or 2021 with
12 additional leads that are going to come about because
13 of the consent decree, I would assume that in
14 communicating this rate proposal, that the voters of
15 the district would be aware that this -- that there
16 still are future -- I think it'd be important for us
17 to communicate that going forward, that there will be
18 future rate proposals dealing with wastewater?
19 A Yeah, I would --
20 Q So that this is not a gotchya is my concern.
21 A To be honest with you, we did not make a
22 specific point on that. Now, in updates, we do
23 give -- when Lance and I give updates to the whole
24 community on the program, we do give both projects
25 clear, which is the consent decree, and we do talk
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1 about what the stormwater issue will be.
2 Have we as part of those discussions right now
3 made absolutely sure that everybody would understand
4 there's future -- again, because we have done this in
5 past future wastewater rates? No, we have not. Will we
6 prior to April 2019? Yes, we will. There will be
7 informational meetings outside of the process the
8 board -- the rate commission has here. Our board of
9 trustees will have those communications. And I will
10 guarantee we make sure that people understand that that
11 is -- that is available also, or that's something to
12 occur in the future prior to a voting occurring in
13 April 2019.
14 We have not really tied the two together.
15 Based on discussions with -- for instance, with
16 municipalities and others, the response we're getting is
17 this is -- especially for the voting public -- a pretty
18 small item. And right now we haven't seen or felt that
19 there was a need in order to really present that to
20 them. We really want them to focus on the stormwater
21 piece.
22 Q I would just caution that, even though
23 they're separate in the minds of the experts, they all
24 come out of the same law at the end of the day. So I
25 would want to make sure that the voters understand.
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1 A Point noted, and we will make sure we take
2 that into consideration in the future.
3 Q My second question has to do with an issue
4 that Mr. Palans brought up. We do a lot of work with
5 MoDOT. And MoDOT -- in the question about the private
6 funding on contributions, I know that MoDOT has a
7 cost-sharing program for municipalities who choose to
8 enhance a bridge project or enhance something that
9 they can have an available program if the municipality
10 decides they need some sort of improvement, they'll
11 cost-share in order to stretch MoDOT's funds further
12 so that they can serve other areas that cannot
13 cost-share. And I just wonder if that discussion has
14 ever occurred at the trustee level to implement some
15 program along those lines?
16 A So the discussion -- and I view what you
17 just asked me as a little different than I think the
18 statement I made before. As a real world example, if
19 we know we have programmed into an old -- I'm using
20 old terminology -- an old taxing fund balance, a
21 project to be done in two years as part of the
22 process -- and ours is actually kind of reversed -- if
23 the city, a municipality, or another entity, has
24 something they want to do with their own funding that
25 encompasses that issue, we won't make them wait for
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1 two years to pull the project up. If we know it's
2 dedicated, we know it's set aside for that, we will
3 then participate and allow them to enhance the
4 project, move it up as far as when MSD -- when they
5 build it, as long as we make sure we are not impacting
6 any other community or any other residents we made
7 commitments to.
8 I will tell you we'll go back and think about
9 it again, except that I think the statement I made is
10 that we're willing to do those things as long as, in
11 very simple terms, more affluent and communities that
12 have more dollars available to them, we don't want them
13 buying their projects ahead of less affluent entities
14 who are also paying the rate and deserve to have the
15 opportunity to have their projects done in the same
16 schedule.
17 So it's a mixed -- or the current process is
18 kind of a mix between the two.
19 Q And I guess I would suggest that if a more
20 affluent municipality is willing to pay half the cost
21 to accelerate the project, then the other half would
22 remain in MSD's bucket to use in the less affluent
23 communities?
24 A Yes, that would -- usually -- understand
25 that when we do move things forward, rarely does a
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1 community offer dollars to us to decrease our cost.
2 Invariably, we have a $250,000 project, they have a
3 500,000, and we pay our 250 and then their five. So
4 it never -- in practice, never actually generates more
5 funds for MSD.
6 Q As it does for MoDOT?
7 A Apparently, it does for MoDOT. I guess
8 they -- you generate additional dollars.
9 Q I would just put that on the table.
10 A Okay.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any other questions from
12 any of the commissioners?
13 Ms. Myers, do you have any questions for
14 Mr. Hoelscher?
15 MS. MYERS: I do not.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Hoelscher, thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: The rate commission will
19 take a break until 10:45.
20 (Whereupon, a brief break was taken.)
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We will reconvene.
22 Ms. Myers, I assume you are ready to present
23 the next witness, which is you.
24 MS. MYERS: I am.
25 (The witness was duly sworn.)
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
2 Mr. Neuschafer, do you have questions of
3 Ms. Myers on behalf of Missouri Industrial Energy
4 Consumers?
5 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
6 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please come forward.
7 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
8 Q Good morning.
9 A Good morning.
10 Q I have just a few questions related to the
11 criteria that you use to assess the rate proposal in
12 Section 7.270 of the charter. And, in particular, I'd
13 like to refer you to Mr. Beckley's written testimony
14 if you have that available.
15 In Question 9, he outlines those criteria,
16 and then in Question 10 is where I have my first
17 question. Question 10 relates to whether the rate
18 proposal is consistent with constitutional statutory
19 or common law. And Mr. Beckley indicated that issues
20 concerning charter plan authority, environmental laws
21 of regulations, constitutional and statutory
22 provisions and case law should be evaluated. Has MSD
23 conducted such an evaluation?
24 A Yes, it has.
25 Q And is the totality of that evaluation
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1 provided in your testimony?
2 A Yes, and supplemented with Exhibit 30Q.
3 Q Okay. Thank you.
4 Go to Question 11. There's going to be a
5 pattern here. We're going to go through a few of
6 these.
7 Question 11 refers to the criteria of
8 enhancing the district's ability to provide adequate
9 drainage systems of facilities or related services.
10 And Mr. Beckley indicates that the rate proposal
11 should be assessed as to whether it meets this
12 criteria. Has MSD conducted this analysis?
13 A That question would be better answered by
14 Rich Unverferth.
15 Q Okay.
16 A If you look at Question 16 in Exhibit MSD
17 30B, go through those criteria.
18 Q Right. I just want to make sure that
19 ultimately the recommendations made by your consultant
20 are followed up --
21 A Okay.
22 Q -- by MSD.
23 A Okay.
24 Q Okay. So Question 12. With respect to
25 whether the rate proposal is consistent with and not
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1 in violation of any covenant or provision relating to
2 any outstanding bonds or indebtedness of the district.
3 Again, Mr. Beckley suggests that this
4 determination requires an analysis of such covenants
5 or provision. Has MSD conducted that analysis?
6 A And that would be a question for Marion Gee.
7 Q Okay. Question 13. With respect to the
8 criterion of whether the rate proposal impairs the
9 ability of the district to comply with applicable
10 federal or state laws or regulations.
11 Again, Mr. Beckley suggests that this is an
12 evaluation that should be made?
13 A And that analysis was, and that is
14 summarized in MSD 30Q, Exhibit MSD 30Q.
15 Q I think the rest of my questions are going
16 to be better answered by other people; so I'm good.
17 A Okay. Thank you.
18 Q Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
20 Ms. Stump, do you have questions for
21 Ms. Myers?
22 MS. STUMP: I do. Thank you.
23 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
24 Q Hello again.
25 A Hello.
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1 Q Mr. Neuschafer eliminated some of mine, but
2 I do have a few more.
3 Your testimony, Question 6 on page 1, I
4 think it is.
5 A Correct.
6 Q In answering the question of whether the
7 proposed stormwater change rate -- or stormwater
8 capital rate is consistent with the constitutional
9 statutory or common law as amended from time to time,
10 you state that the rate is consistent with a
11 district's charter. And I'd just like you -- for the
12 record, is it your opinion that the stormwater capital
13 rate is consistent with all constitutional statutory
14 and common law applicable to the district?
15 A Yes.
16 Q The stormwater tax that we considered back
17 in 2015 was not levied on the governmental or tax
18 exempt properties; yet, this new stormwater capital
19 rate is. Can you explain that?
20 A This is a rate. It is not a tax and,
21 therefore, the charter gives us the ability to charge
22 that rate to all property served, either public or
23 private. That's Section 3.02016 of the charter.
24 Q So let's -- let's talk about that a little
25 bit more, calling this a rate under the charter and
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1 not a tax. Is the term "rate" defined in the charter?
2 A No, I do not believe so.
3 Q Do you consider the rate to be something
4 that's more akin to a user fee charge or separate from
5 that?
6 A The -- the rate --
7 Q Let me re --
8 A Okay.
9 Q Do you consider that the rate is something
10 that's based on the use of MSD facilities or MSD
11 services?
12 A No, not for this particular charge.
13 Q Can you explain why?
14 A This rate, the way -- and this is probably
15 better answered by Marion Gee.
16 Q Okay.
17 A I better let him answer that.
18 Q What makes this different from the tax --
19 from a tax?
20 A Because this rate is not associated with the
21 value of the property and taxes are based upon value
22 of property.
23 Q Okay. And I know it seems like I'm going in
24 a circle, but you know where I'm going.
25 So part of it not being a tax is that it
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1 corresponds to use; correct?
2 A No. The -- I believe the rate -- the reason
3 that we are looking at this as a rate is the way that
4 we are measuring it.
5 Q Okay. And how are we measuring it?
6 A By the -- the amount of impermeable property
7 or on the property.
8 Q And the ERUs?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So can you -- and maybe -- I think Brian
11 kind of explained this, but can you add anything to
12 Brian's testimony about how the ERUs correspond to the
13 use or do you want me to ask --
14 A That would be Marion.
15 Q Okay. Still along these lines of the rate.
16 Back in the discovery, the first discovery responses,
17 questions on MSD 30B, Question 47: "The district
18 states that the stormwater capital rate can be charged
19 to all customers whether public or private in the
20 district pursuant to the expressed terms of the
21 charter."
22 Are there any court opinions that you can
23 share with us supporting this conclusion?
24 A None other than I -- that's already been
25 provided in 30Q, which gives the authority of the
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1 charter.
2 Q And has the district received a legal
3 opinion that supports the ability to charge this
4 stormwater capital rate on all customers?
5 A Yes, we have.
6 Q Would you be willing to share that with us?
7 A That legal opinion is confidential and
8 privileged, but I am willing to provide a summary that
9 would be similar to Exhibit MSD 30Q on that topic.
10 Q That would be great. Thank you.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Well, I'm going to ask you this question
13 anyway and you can defer me. And I asked
14 Mr. Hoelscher some of this, but I'd like to follow up
15 with you a little bit from a legal standpoint on this.
16 So you're familiar with, I assume, the Missouri growth
17 opinion discussing the rate under Section 3.02016 of
18 the charter --
19 A Correct.
20 Q -- where the Court found that there's a
21 direct relationship to the services that were
22 received. And I guess I would -- I would appreciate
23 any explanation we could get as to how we get this
24 same type of direct relationship with the stormwater
25 capital rate.
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1 A Well, this stormwater capital rate is a
2 completely different type of rate than what was
3 evaluated under the Missouri growth case.
4 Q Right.
5 A And so this rate is just addressing flooding
6 and erosion and is not an O&M rate of any sort with
7 the stormwater facilities that exist. So I think that
8 is the biggest difference and the . . .
9 Q Is the -- is it, however, the stormwater
10 capital rate, is it related -- is there a relationship
11 with the services that MSD is providing?
12 A What do you mean by "services"?
13 Q Or the services that -- is there a
14 relationship between the services that are received by
15 the property owner and the charge that they are -- the
16 rate that they are getting imposed?
17 A Like I said before, and I -- the rate is to
18 address erosion and flooding. The customer -- our
19 customers are not paying that type of rate at this
20 time. What they are currently paying for stormwater
21 is a regulatory tax and an O&M tax. So this rate is
22 not associated with those two other stormwater
23 charges. Does that answer --
24 Q No, but I think I need to ask
25 Mr. Unverferth. I think it's gone beyond the legal
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1 into the practical.
2 Okay. You had a question referred to you
3 from Mr. -- from Brian that -- where we talked about
4 the charter and that we can only apply -- only levy
5 ten cents for operation. And my question was can you
6 explain how this provision does or does not apply to
7 the current proposal?
8 A That provision does not apply to the current
9 proposal because the current proposal is a rate and is
10 not a tax.
11 Q And it's a rate, not a tax, for the reason
12 that you just explained?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Okay. One final avenue here. On your
15 testimony in Question 8 on page 4, your testimony is
16 that Section 204.700 of the Missouri Statutes is void
17 and it's illegal for numerous reasons. And I guess if
18 this is the case, why has the district never
19 considered an O&M rate rather than a tax since
20 nonprofits use the services and use the system?
21 A Ask that -- state that again.
22 Q If Section 204.700 is void, is illegal for
23 numerous reasons, how come -- or has -- how come the
24 district has never considered an O&M? And now we're
25 taking about rates instead of taxes or other charges.
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1 Why has the district never considered an O&M rate
2 rather than a tax?
3 A I don't believe that the Statute 204.700 --
4 it applies to both rate and taxes.
5 Q Okay.
6 A That -- that's not what makes it that
7 statute, in our opinion.
8 Q And has -- has the district -- if it's your
9 opinion it's illegal, has the district ever considered
10 seeking a declaratory judgment action or taken any
11 other challenges to the validity of the statute?
12 A We have not. When that statute was enacted,
13 we were in the middle of the Zweig versus MSD
14 litigation, and the outcome of the trial court in
15 Zweig was that that impervious rate was
16 unconstitutional. So we stopped charging that rate at
17 that time and so we never pursued the Statute 204.700.
18 Q Do you have an outside legal opinion stating
19 that Section 204.700 is void and illegal?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Would you be willing to --
22 A It is also confidential, but the summary of
23 it is provided in my response to Question 8.
24 Q Okay. Thank you very much. I'll just
25 check. I think that's all the questions I have for
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1 you.
2 A Okay.
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
4 Do any of the rate commissioners have
5 questions for Ms. Stump -- for Ms. Myers. I'm sorry.
6 Mr. Palans?
7 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Yes. Thank you.
8 TELEPHONIC QUESTIONS BY MR. PALANS:
9 Q Ms. Myers, I'm not asking you for a copy of
10 the opinion; instead, I'd like to ask you who issued
11 the opinion that you testified about?
12 A One of our outside law firms, Shands &
13 Gilbert.
14 Q And is that the sole opinion of counsel --
15 outside counsel that you're relying upon?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Had you received any opinion of counsel that
18 contradicts the opinion of Shands & Gilbert?
19 A No.
20 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have no
21 further questions.
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans.
23 Any further questions for Ms. Myers?
24 Mr. Goss?
25 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
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1 Q I have one question. In Question 7, you had
2 stated that as for charging Federal Government
3 entities, there's no issue because the Federal
4 Government specifically made itself subject to payment
5 of reasonable service charges for stormwater services
6 by enacting 33USC Section 1323. What are the
7 stormwater services you're referring to in that
8 answer?
9 A I do not know all of the services, but I
10 believe it's for at least O&M and I don't know if
11 that's their completeness of their services or not.
12 Q So the stormwater services that would be
13 provided in connection with this rate, would that
14 statement also apply to those?
15 A That would be accurate.
16 Q And Mr. Palans asked you a question about
17 the opinion that was rendered by Shands & Gilbert, and
18 when he asked the question of opinion, I think there
19 were two legal opinions that you referred to earlier
20 in your testimony. One that related to Section 204
21 and then another one that related to whether this is a
22 tax or a rate. So just to clarify, did Shands &
23 Gilbert give an opinion of both of those issues?
24 A No. What I referred to was we have a legal
25 opinion on the -- the summary was provided in MSD 30Q.
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1 That's in response to Question 17 about whether we're
2 complying with all the constitution and all statutory
3 laws. The other legal opinion I have is on whether
4 this rate can be charged to the nonprofit
5 organizations or not, and that is the opinion that I
6 am willing to provide a summary.
7 Q And that latter opinion was provided by
8 Shands & Gilbert?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And the former opinion was provided by who?
11 A The same, Shands.
12 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Okay. That's it.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions from
14 any of the rate commissioners for Ms. Myers?
15 Seeing none, Ms. Myers, any further --
16 MS. MYERS: Nope. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you very much.
18 Ms. Myers, are you ready to have our next witness,
19 Mr. Unverferth?
20 MS. MYERS: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We will start his
22 testimony prior to lunch, but something tells me we'll
23 be taking a break.
24 Get very comfortable, Mr. Unverferth.
25 (The witness was duly sworn.)
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Neuschafer, do you have questions for
3 Mr. Unverferth?
4 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
5 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please come forward.
6 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
7 Q Good morning.
8 A Good morning.
9 Q I wanted to start by referring back to some
10 of the testimony from Mr. Hoelscher this morning about
11 the projects and the benefit cost analysis that was
12 conducted. Could you provide some detail on the
13 factors that go into that benefit cost analysis, how
14 that's conducted?
15 A One, we look at the actual problem and then
16 we look at the benefit of the solution, and that is
17 divided by the overall cost of -- the benefit cost
18 issue. And I'm being pretty general, but when we look
19 at the problem, we look at the severity of the
20 problem. We look at how often does it occur as far as
21 recurrences and does it happen every time it rains.
22 And then you get more points for more often a flooding
23 event occurs and the impact. If it's flooding a home
24 or a structure or a roadway, it would get more problem
25 points than, say, if someone's yard was --
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1 (Reporter clarification.)
2 A -- so with regard to flooding. With regard
3 to erosion, very similar, how close is the erosion to
4 some facility, whether it be a home or a roadway. And
5 that distance, the closer it is, or even if it's
6 actually taking out some facility, it would get a
7 higher point value for that. And then on the same
8 time we add to that, certain benefit points for the
9 solution. So if we develop a solution and say that
10 solution that we provide for that project enhances, in
11 other words, benefits more properties, it would get
12 more points. In other words, it was part of a
13 regional solution.
14 One of the things we took into consideration
15 is if the solution provided some environmental benefit.
16 So if there's green incorporated, it could be deemed to
17 provide some environmental benefit with regard to runoff
18 contaminants, things like that.
19 And I'm trying to remember the entire
20 prioritization sheet that the -- the actual specifics
21 are on this sheet and how we took that into
22 consideration.
23 And then what we -- and I think the question
24 was asked earlier about cost. And we kind of referred
25 to as generalized costs, but almost every issue that
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1 we've identified, whether it be an issue or project,
2 it's been visited. In other words, there was a site
3 visit made because in order to determine what the
4 problem is, you have to make an assessment, whether --
5 how close it is, you'll have to interview property
6 owners, "how often do you get flooded," if you don't
7 have any data to support that. So there is an analysis
8 or an assessment done enough to understand what the
9 problem points are.
10 And then -- and then you develop conceptually
11 what that solution might be, whether it can be fixed,
12 like Brian equated to with an inlet and 100 feet of
13 pipe, or if it takes a large erosion, and you're
14 making -- this is probably where the conceptual part
15 comes. You're -- you're trying to determine without
16 doing much engineering what the solution might look
17 like. And then we take that and we use concept cost
18 curves. And then you take where that cost might be for
19 whatever that solution is and that would give you what
20 the cost for both construction design would be. And so,
21 therefore, you use a conceptual cost curve analysis. I
22 don't believe we've provided those conceptual cost
23 curves, but we can do that, if necessary.
24 And then -- so those benefit and problem
25 points then are divided by the cost per $1,000 to
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1 develop our benefit.
2 Q (By Mr. Neuschafer) Okay. Is this a
3 standard methodology used in the industry or is this
4 something MSD created?
5 A MSD created it back in 2006, but it is a
6 standard methodology for assessing a problem by
7 taking -- in fact, we've utilized it for wastewater
8 benefits as well, you know, looking at the problems
9 and base it on the solution for that type. But --
10 Q So let me understand you then. Conducting a
11 cost benefit analysis is standard?
12 A Correct.
13 Q But how your particular cost benefit
14 analyses are conducted is a system you derived?
15 A Yeah, we derived it ourselves based on years
16 of looking at our stormwater problems. We've been
17 looking at them for 30 years.
18 Q Okay. Thank you.
19 For the projects -- for the projects that
20 have been identified and I -- the actual number is
21 around 450 projects that are known at this time,
22 what's the typical service life of a project? And I
23 know there may be a range. So a range would be
24 acceptable, but if you go out and complete a project,
25 would you expect that this is going to resolve the
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1 issue for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years?
2 A If it involves a physical infrastructure
3 like pipes, inlets, some type of stormwater structure,
4 typically you're looking at 50 to 100-year life on
5 that. When you're talking about the
6 bio-stabilization, in reality, if you do a
7 bio-stabilization to adjust and allow that creek to go
8 back to what nature intended it to, you hope that you
9 never have to go back, but obviously things can occur
10 over periods of time.
11 Q If all things go well, a very long life on
12 these projects?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Okay. Have you -- I know in the -- in the
15 proposal, Section 6 contains a long list of
16 anticipated projects over the next, I believe it's
17 five years. And I understand correctly, these are the
18 universe of known projects at this point in time?
19 A This is actually the -- what we would tackle
20 in the first five years. In other words, we're
21 basically taking our universe of 480-some projects and
22 then taking what we anticipate would be the -- that
23 we -- that come to the top of the cost benefit at this
24 time.
25 Q Is there any estimate of the number of these
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1 projects that have purely residential impacts versus
2 purely commercial impacts? And I'm talking about the
3 properties impacted by completing this.
4 A Yeah, I did -- I did not -- we did not do
5 that analysis.
6 Q In your experience, is it accurate to state
7 that large commercial properties are more likely to
8 address runoff issues in their, you know, engineering
9 and design and construction of the property?
10 A It's kind of -- as far as -- could you just
11 repeat the question? I think I understand it.
12 Q Yeah. In your experience, is it accurate to
13 state that a larger commercial property, for example,
14 a corporate campus is more likely to have addressed
15 stormwater runoff issues in the engineering and design
16 and build of the property such that they aren't
17 contributing as much to, you know, issues caused by
18 stormwater runoff.
19 A Yeah. There -- there has been regulations
20 put into place, obviously to mitigate the impacts from
21 new development dating back to the '80s all the way up
22 to in the early 2000s where it actually included more
23 regulation for environmental for stormwater runoff.
24 But it evolves -- through a period of time, we found a
25 lot of the regulations that were put into place in the
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1 early '80s really didn't do a whole lot so the
2 regulations have become more stringent over time to
3 try to -- yes, to try to address that.
4 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Okay. That's all I have at
5 this time. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
7 Ms. Stump, do you have questions for
8 Mr. Unverferth?
9 MS. STUMP: Yes, I do.
10 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
11 Q Good morning.
12 A Good morning.
13 Q Let's talk first for a few minutes about the
14 credit or incentive programs, which I think is
15 Question 15 of your testimony on page 4 and then also
16 Section 4.4 of the rate proposal.
17 A Question 15, correct. Okay.
18 Q Can you explain a little bit how the
19 district will determine eligibility for the
20 residential credit?
21 A All the credits would have to be -- in other
22 words, we would make those known they have to be
23 applied for.
24 Q Is the residential credit going to be
25 limited to things such as rain gardens and cisterns or
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1 is it going to go beyond that?
2 A It would be -- I think we put some criteria
3 in here of what they would have to capture and provide
4 as far as -- if you're looking at the residential
5 incentive program, I think we have some specific
6 requirements as -- of the amount of capture that would
7 be required in order to receive a credit.
8 Q And then how will the district determine
9 whether rain gardens or similar things are maintained
10 such as to provide an ongoing benefit to the district?
11 A Typically when someone constructs a rain
12 garden of that type, there's a maintenance agreement
13 that the homeowner signs to ensure that it be
14 maintained over a period of time.
15 Q And that would be part of determining the
16 eligibility for the credit?
17 A Correct.
18 And I'll go back. I did say that they would
19 have to be applied for. The credit applied to homes
20 tributary to the river, we would do that. We have that
21 available from previous impervious rates. But the other
22 credits -- the other credits and incentives would have
23 to be applied for.
24 Q And like the restrictions on the rain
25 gardens for cisterns, are there going to be rules in
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1 place to ensure that they have capacity to manage
2 their designated runoff?
3 A Yes. We have -- we actually have our
4 development review program in place that reviews and
5 analyzes BMP practices such as this on new development
6 as we exist today.
7 Q And then for commercial incentives, will the
8 district inspect facilities to ensure they remain in
9 good operating condition? Is there an agreement for
10 those also?
11 A Yes. We -- any facility that is built,
12 specifically for an incentive program just like it is
13 when it's built regulatorily, again, it has the
14 maintenance agreement and we have those on a three to
15 five-year schedule, based on the type of facility.
16 Q Three to five-year schedule for inspections?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Thank you.
19 And then how were the credit -- the percent
20 credits for the low-impact development and direct
21 drainage credits determined?
22 A The direct drainage credits -- and I'm
23 assuming you're talking about the ones to the river?
24 Q Correct.
25 A Approximately 30 percent of the district's
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1 impervious area as a whole is not billable. And
2 basically we're talking about streets, sidewalks,
3 runways, anything that is a billable -- highways -- is
4 about 30 percent of the total of impervious area at
5 the district. So we felt like even if they were not
6 contributing to any runoff to the -- to the district,
7 such as a property located right in a river
8 floodplain, they still use the streets, they still do
9 everything. So that we determined that a -- that a 70
10 cent credit was appropriate.
11 For the -- for the runoff for the low-income
12 impact development, they are producing a runoff. But
13 with the larger parcel of property, that runoff is not
14 as impactful. In other words, a lot of it is being
15 captured on. So basically we took half of that
16 70 percent as a -- as a credit, which is how we
17 arrived -- And there's a lot more detail having to do
18 with more technical in the rate proposal.
19 Q Thank you.
20 Back to your testimony, can we look at
21 Question 16?
22 A Okay.
23 Q And I'm curious. On the sentence that
24 you -- there's a sentence, it's on page 5, that you
25 state, "It is anticipated that the use of a tiered
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1 system will greatly minimize the number of issues that
2 will result in a billing change." Can you explain why
3 you anticipate that?
4 A Well, on the tiered system, it is giving you
5 a range on a specific piece of property, and over
6 50 percent of ours fall within the range to where when
7 we did the old -- when we did it back in 2008, we
8 measured down to the nearest 100 square feet. So if
9 you have a range of, say -- I don't have the ranges
10 sitting in front of me -- 1,200, you had somebody
11 specifically that could argue 12 different points,
12 depending on where they are. Now they're only going
13 to want an assessment done if they feel like they're
14 at the high end of the range or the low end of the
15 range. I hope I explained that.
16 Q I got it. Okay. Let's talk about levy
17 districts for a minute, which is Question 17. How
18 many levy districts are there within the district's
19 boundaries?
20 A I'm going to -- I can't recall. We did not
21 mention it. I think there are -- there are --
22 Q That's okay.
23 A Is it in the proposal? I think it's six. I
24 don't want to say for certain. There's actually --
25 Q Are they listed somewhere, I assume?
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1 A That's what we're looking for. I do not
2 know if we listed them or not.
3 I believe we have the actual agreements. One,
4 two, three, four, five. So I believe there's six -- six
5 levy districts. We have agreements with five of them.
6 Q Does the district perform any operational or
7 maintenance within the levy districts for stormwater?
8 A We do not.
9 Q Does the district perform any regulatory
10 services within the levy districts?
11 A Yes, we do. We do regulatory. We still
12 perform development plan review for new development
13 within those areas and -- and have regulatory
14 requirements that we -- in the remaining portions of
15 the district.
16 Q And how are the -- how is the regulatory
17 services paid for?
18 A Through the two-cent regulatory tax.
19 Q And then will the district have any
20 obligation for capital improvements in the levy
21 districts?
22 A The levy districts have the authority to
23 perform capital improvements, and they do those now.
24 The district will not -- does not plan to do any
25 capital improvements within those areas. They have
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1 that authority and they have the ability to pay for
2 those through the -- the people or the people taxed
3 within the levy districts.
4 Q So the district has no obligation? That's
5 the answer?
6 A Correct. That is correct.
7 Q And then you talk about the Missouri Bottom,
8 Hazelwood levy district in your testimony. Why is
9 that different in assessed system water?
10 A It is, I think, probably completely
11 undeveloped. In other words, there's -- there's
12 minimal development within that area.
13 Q Do you have an agreement with them like you
14 do --
15 A We do not.
16 Q Okay. So it's also that -- I mean, it's
17 also that you have an agreement with all the other
18 levy districts but not with them?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Question 28 on page 6. Just to confirm, is
21 it your testimony that there are no grants to help
22 with the funding for erosion flooding projects?
23 A What --
24 Q Question 28, page 6. Nope, that's not
25 right, is it? Twenty-eight -- twenty -- hold on.
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1 A If I remember the question --
2 Q Twenty.
3 A Oh, 20. Could you repeat the question?
4 Q Yes, sir. Twenty. Is it your testimony
5 that there are no grants to help with the funding
6 of -- for the erosion flooding projects?
7 A Yes, we are not aware of any. We do monitor
8 their -- our -- in years past, there were funding,
9 grant funding available through Missouri State, but
10 those have not been issued any time in the year -- in
11 the recent future -- recent past.
12 Q Do you continue to monitor if there are any
13 grants available that you can use?
14 A We do.
15 Q Okay. I'm just checking my question number.
16 A All right.
17 Q Question 24 on page 7. You state that the
18 stormwater capital improvements have been delayed due
19 to lack of funding. Can you expand on that a little
20 bit?
21 A I think Brian kind of mentioned it early.
22 The district -- and I've been here 31 years. We've
23 been looking at stormwater issues throughout the
24 district for the -- the entire time that I've been
25 here, there were extensive studies. In fact, there
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1 was a whole division of MSD just for stormwater back
2 in the '80s that took a look at our issues. And a lot
3 of those issues that are on that $562 million list --
4 I've been around for 20 or 30 years; so we're looking
5 at a 20 to 30-year problem that we have not had the
6 funding to address.
7 And the funding that we have had within the
8 individual OMCI taxing districts has been able to
9 address some of those issues. But as you saw from the
10 issues map, there are issues that still exist in those
11 areas. Not to mention the areas that we have not -- had
12 not done anything in outside of 270.
13 Q Thank you.
14 Let's go to the district's response to the
15 first discovery request, which is Exhibit 30B. And
16 I'm going to ask these questions of you. If it's
17 someone else, let me know.
18 A Okay. I got both of them here. Okay.
19 Q Question 31, about the general service
20 agreement.
21 A Okay.
22 Q Are survey services, geotechnical services,
23 property appraisal and specialty engineering services
24 included in the CIRP project cost?
25 A Yes, they're in the list that we provide --
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1 one of the two lists that provide the actual funding
2 for the program in the rate proposal.
3 Q Then why are supplemental funds needed
4 through the general service agreement?
5 A You'll have to repeat -- the general service
6 agreement are agreements to provide those services.
7 Maybe I missed the question.
8 Q Where -- and maybe I should just try to --
9 where -- then where in the program are the funds
10 deployed?
11 A During the delivery of the program. In
12 other words --
13 Q Right.
14 A -- we -- we reach general service agreements
15 with surveyors, consulting engineers, geotechnical
16 engineers, provide those services to help us design --
17 plan, design, and construct those services -- or the
18 projects or issues on the list.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Maybe -- maybe to simplify that, we enter a
21 general services agreement to provide these services
22 as staff extension. In other words, I have internal
23 staff that does planning, designing, construction, but
24 we also hire outside resources to help with that
25 effort. Does that --
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1 Q That helps. And then Question 32 related to
2 easement acquisitions.
3 A Okay.
4 Q The district responds -- responds to this
5 that it's an addition to the CIRP project cost?
6 A Yes. That is -- that is an additional cost.
7 Q And I think this is just clarifying, too,
8 for me, but that in Question 35, the district talks
9 about conceptual and preliminary design costs do not
10 take into consideration easement acquisition cost. So
11 I'm just trying to figure out --
12 A No. What we do is once -- once we program a
13 project, we take a look at -- we estimate how many
14 easements we -- we may need for all the projects
15 identified throughout a current fiscal year and then
16 we identi -- and then we put a dollar amount on that
17 and put that within that -- that particular year. In
18 other words, the conceptual cost at that time do not
19 include easement acquisition cost.
20 Q Okay. Sorry, but I'm going backwards.
21 Question 8. The district states that the flyover
22 flight lines for most of the district were completed
23 during the week of March 12, 2018. And while we
24 understand that the processing of the data has not
25 been completed, but based on your understanding of the
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1 quality of the current data used to develop the
2 current proposed stormwater capital rate and the
3 technology available, do you have an expectation
4 regarding whether there will be any possible change in
5 the projected ERUs based on the new data?
6 A I think we discussed this within the rate
7 proposal on our analysis of how we arrived at what we
8 feel the current impervious area is right now, are the
9 projections that we used.
10 I guess -- I guess, could you repeat the
11 question? I'm not sure I know exactly what you're
12 asking.
13 Q What I'm asking is whether you anticipate
14 there to be any sort of possible change in the
15 projected ERUs?
16 A Based on the change over the period of time
17 since 2012, I would not expect that there would be a
18 change in the ERU.
19 Q Thank you. All right. Let me just go
20 through my other ones to see what was referred back to
21 you.
22 A Okay.
23 Q Okay. I talked a little bit with
24 Mr. Hoelscher about the difference between operation
25 and maintenance and capital improvements, and I think
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1 he thought that you could expand on that a little bit.
2 We did talk about the exhibit and how that was --
3 Exhibit 23 on the maintenance policy, and that was
4 kind of the line. But we were talking about the line
5 between capital improvement and maintenance. Is there
6 anything else you want to add on that beyond what he
7 said?
8 A No. I think he actually explained it pretty
9 well. The operation and maintenance of the facilities
10 are pretty much what I refer to as the physical
11 infrastructure that exists out there. The pipes, the
12 inlets, concrete line channels that exist out there,
13 that is the physical -- those are the things that
14 we're out there on a day-to-day basis operating and
15 maintaining that are funded by the operation of
16 maintenance.
17 What this new rate will fund is, where in most
18 cases there doesn't exist some type of physical fix for
19 the flooding of the system, there doesn't exist any kind
20 of piping system to address the flooding, or there's a
21 natural channel that has begun to erode. And,
22 obviously, a natural channel is a different animal
23 because the solution used to be concrete-lined channels,
24 but it wasn't a very environmentally effective solution
25 at that time. So, obviously, regulations have changed
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1 which do not allow those anymore so now you go to a more
2 natural solution.
3 But, again, if those are put into place, in
4 effect they're putting the creek back to its natural
5 state and does not necessarily require any kind of
6 structural solution that MSD would need to maintain.
7 Q Thank you.
8 Then I think I just have one final question
9 kind of based on the conversation that Mr. Hoelscher
10 and Mr. Palans had about the consent decree.
11 Mr. Hoelscher referred to the green infrastructure
12 that's being built through the consent decree. And I
13 just want to ask would that be maintained by
14 wastewater or the stormwater Prop S?
15 A The majority of the green infrastructure
16 that is constructed with the wastewater funds is
17 actually administered through a grant program from the
18 wastewater fund to private development.
19 The district doesn't own a lot of property.
20 In other words, we don't have an opportunity to
21 construct green infrastructure in the combined sewer
22 area, which as Brian put it, is there to capture
23 stormwater, detain it from entering the combined sewer
24 system, which allows the district to treat more flow at
25 its treatment plants, which is the ultimate location of
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1 this flow prior to it overflowing to the river.
2 So when we grant these funds for the green
3 infrastructure to the individual property owners, they
4 then sign the maintenance agreement. In other words, we
5 are supplying the capital costs for that infrastructure
6 and then they're assuming the maintenance in perpetuity.
7 The district has constructed some green
8 infrastructure as part of the program. It was where we
9 had -- had bought out properties to reduce impervious
10 area, vacant properties, that we've -- we've developed
11 drainage areas and built green infrastructure basins.
12 Those we do maintain with our wastewater funding.
13 Q Wastewater.
14 MS. STUMP: I think that's -- I think we're
15 good.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
17 MS. STUMP: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We will start with a few
19 questions from the rate commission prior to breaking
20 for lunch.
21 Mr. Stein.
22 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER STEIN:
23 Q Mr. Unverferth, my understanding is that the
24 district has an agreement with the City of St. Louis
25 regarding demolition of old and decrepit properties.
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1 Is the district using funds from the wastewater
2 program or from user fees or from this potential
3 stormwater capital fund to -- to fund that effort?
4 A That is -- that is -- funds being used for
5 the demolition project with the City of St. Louis are
6 wastewater funds. It's part of the $100 billion
7 commitment to review COSs on the Mississippi River by
8 the -- and by the removal of impervious area. In
9 other words, to allow to soak into the ground and not
10 get to the combined sewer system; thus, reduce
11 overflows to the Mississippi River. But, yes, those
12 are the funds from the wastewater program.
13 COMMISSIONER STEIN: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Schoedel.
15 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL:
16 Q You mentioned the point system you use for
17 prioritizing projects that you established back in
18 2006, and that other communities use something
19 different or similar to that and you found that very
20 successful. That's been primarily an internal
21 document?
22 A Yes.
23 Q When you start sharing that with the
24 homeowners, it's a very subjective system. What
25 happens when there's a disagreement and how do you
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1 resolve that?
2 A Again, we're basing it on, again, how often
3 do you flood. In some cases, if people have never
4 called or we don't have any record, it can be -- it
5 can be subjective. They say, "Well, I flood every
6 time." And then we have records that show that we've
7 never received a call or -- and we sometimes will
8 check with a municipality, "Are you aware of flooding
9 in this area?" So there is somewhat subjectivity to
10 it.
11 Keep in mind, we have -- we're -- it's going
12 to take 30 years to get all the problems that I've
13 talked about. It's already been 30 years. So, yeah,
14 it's a very difficult situation. Explain to a homeowner
15 where you're at on this list, particularly if they -- if
16 they flood. In a lot of instances, you'll find that,
17 you know, there -- maybe they don't flood as often as
18 they realize that they do.
19 Q So they now will be charged based on
20 impervious area. What will be your method of how
21 often will you be updating that, as that will impact
22 their fee?
23 A The impervious area?
24 Q Yes.
25 A I don't recall if we've -- when we had the
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1 previous impervious rate, we were updating that, we
2 were doing a new flyover every other year with the --
3 with the implementation of a tiered rate. I don't
4 know that we've had that policy discussion on how
5 often we plan to do that because there is a cost
6 involved in that. So I would think at a minimum, it's
7 going to be every other year. I don't know that we've
8 made that decision as of yet.
9 Q You mentioned as part of the credit
10 programs, homeowners will be able to do a BMP,
11 rain gardens. They'll be responsible for maintaining
12 those, but you'll be inspecting them. So you'd have
13 the staff to take on that?
14 A Yes. Part of our regulatory staff, I mean,
15 I don't think we're -- based on the number of BMPs and
16 the facilities that are being put in based -- for new
17 development, this will be relatively minor to that.
18 So we don't anticipate a large increase in that.
19 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Further questions for
21 Mr. Unverferth?
22 Mr. Brockmann.
23 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN:
24 Q Rich, the credits, will they be available
25 for both commercial and not-for-profit?
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1 A Yes. The commercial for anybody paying an
2 MSD stormwater bill, the credit would be available.
3 Q You talked about the follow-up of reviewing
4 these rain gardens or other things. A recent trade
5 journal or a stormwater trade journal had an
6 interesting article in it, and it had a
7 before-and-after picture from 17 years ago of the
8 stormwater biosoil in the parking lot. And I have to
9 tell you those two pictures told me a lot because it
10 showed 17 years ago when they built the project, it
11 looked beautiful. It's obvious it was going to be a
12 effective way to harvest stormwater off of a parking
13 lot into a biosoil, and 17 years later, the trees have
14 grown a lot bigger, all the rest of the foliage is
15 gone. It's piled full of mulch. It's no longer
16 effective. So all I'm offering is that follow-up is
17 going to be important for these to be continually
18 effective.
19 Talking about your flyovers on 8C and MSD
20 30B, you talk about you're going to do additional
21 flyovers on sunny days. I guess I'm wondering why
22 wouldn't we do all the flyovers on sunny days? Do you
23 get more accurate information?
24 A I would -- I would have to get you an answer
25 to that. I'm not -- I -- there wasn't an answer. I'd
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1 have to talk with my GIS folks who take care of that,
2 but . . .
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Based on this last month's
4 weather, that would be like 12 flyovers a year.
5 A Why -- I assume that's why we would -- if --
6 if -- if it wasn't providing us accurate information,
7 that's why we would require new flyovers to ensure us.
8 Also, they handed to me, and it's in the rate
9 proposal -- I probably should have known this -- we
10 anticipate to fly over every other year and adjust our
11 data.
12 Q (By Commissioner Brockmann) Also, it says
13 that delineated impervious areas will be delivered in
14 blocks. First of all, who's delivering those, who's
15 delineated the impervious areas? You, apparently,
16 last time did this in-house?
17 A We did some of it in-house and we did -- we
18 also did it under contractual services. I would have
19 to get you the names of who's doing our flyovers.
20 Q Okay.
21 A I don't know that right off top of my head.
22 Q And will any homeowner or property owner
23 have access to this specific document related to their
24 property?
25 A Actually, what we've done is we've -- and
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1 it's -- where it's a little bit of beta testing now,
2 and we're hoping to have it available by the time the
3 rate commission goes to its public hearing, but we've
4 developed an app hopefully that a homeowner or a
5 commercial property would be able to go to our
6 website, type in their address, and determine what
7 their impervious -- or what their ERU count would be.
8 We're doing some testing on it now. It
9 works -- it works. I've tried it for calling up my own
10 property to find out how many ERUs. We're doing the
11 beta testing right now for the commercial properties.
12 So a commercial property would be able to enter their
13 address and be able to see prior to the election, and
14 then obviously would be in place afterwards as well.
15 Q And all of this activity is being funded
16 through what source?
17 A Currently, it's being funded through our
18 general operating -- the departments right now.
19 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Okay. That's all I
20 have.
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Brockmann.
22 Yes. Mr. Bresnan.
23 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRESNAN:
24 Q On the ERUs, let's take the City of
25 St. Louis. When they develop or they knock down
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1 buildings, how often will you -- every rate increase
2 change that? Because where you might have had, you
3 know, a sprawl of 10 buildings might go to a level
4 lot. How often will you adjust that?
5 A That will be part of the every two-year
6 flyover. In other words, it does a comparison of the
7 previous flyover to determine and then go look at that
8 property owner. So it'd be on an every-other-year
9 basis.
10 COMMISIONER BRESN: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Mahanta.
12 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MAHANTA:
13 Q Rich, for a credit program, will the
14 individual homeowners or property owners be required
15 to apply for credit as of -- also?
16 A Yes, they will. They will need to notify us
17 that they have an intent. If it's an incentive, that
18 they have an intent to build a rain garden, a
19 non-required rain garden. Understand, there are -- in
20 some cases, somebody may be regulatory required to put
21 in a rain garden, they wouldn't necessarily see a
22 credit for that. But if someone says, "I want to put
23 in a cistern or a rain garden," to capture that
24 minimum of one ERU, then we would come out and take a
25 look at that.
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1 Q My question more specifically was for areas,
2 general areas that are going to get -- get, say, the
3 70 percent discount. In those areas, individual
4 property owners, would they have to apply for it also?
5 A No. I -- I just got my note to remind me
6 that I corrected myself a while ago. If -- if they
7 directly drain to a river or they've already, based on
8 our last impervious rate, been determined that they
9 were not contributing, they would not have to apply.
10 COMMISSIONER MAHANTA: Okay. That's all.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Goss.
13 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
14 Q Yeah. I wanted to talk to you a little bit
15 about your cost benefit analysis, and I think Brian
16 had referred me to you with respect to Exhibits 30J
17 and 30K.
18 A Uh-huh. Let me get those up here. Okay.
19 Q All right. Looking at Exhibit 30K, it's
20 divided into two categories, the flooding and streams,
21 which there has to be an initial determination made as
22 to which problem you're dealing with; is that right?
23 A Yes. Yeah, you -- we -- this is set up
24 based on -- on the types of problem issues that the
25 district had identified prior to 2006 when we
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1 implemented this prioritization system.
2 Q And what methodology did MSD use to come up
3 with this point system?
4 A We look at actually multiple years and
5 identification of projects from various studies. But
6 what we did was we took a look at -- in other words,
7 we wanted to look at the severity of the problem; the
8 type of the problem; whether it be flooding erosion.
9 In other words, have the ability to put a point system
10 on the actual problem issue and then -- and then add
11 to that some benefit of the solution. In other words,
12 we wanted to be able to -- it's what engineers do to
13 put some type of a monetary system to the issues that
14 existed out there.
15 Q Okay. So --
16 A As opposed to being more subjective.
17 Q Okay. And so what made something -- for
18 example, the attached garage -- 100-point problem as
19 opposed to a miscellaneous structure being a 50-point
20 problem? Why is something worth 50 and something
21 worth a 100, why isn't it 75 and 25? How did you come
22 up with those numbers?
23 A Well, I wasn't involved in the specific
24 process, but my understanding from the staff that was
25 involved, there was an iteration. In other words,
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1 there was a multitude of beta testing that was done on
2 different issues that existed at the time that came up
3 with a semblance of what they felt like provided a
4 good cost benefit or good problem point ratio of the
5 actual issue that existed.
6 That's why we take into consideration, if
7 we're talking flooding, how often does it flood? Does
8 it only flood during a 100-year event? Does it get
9 flooded every time it rains? So in other words, you'll
10 not only take the impact, but you also take the occur --
11 reoccurrence of that impact. Is there erosion existing
12 on the property? How close is it to the property? That
13 type of thing.
14 As far as how they arrived at these -- each
15 individual number, I'm not going to be able to answer
16 that, I don't think.
17 Q What about the scale of the numbers, can you
18 answer that?
19 A I think you're going to just have to give me
20 a specific instance and I would have to -- to provide
21 you with an answer. I'm not sure.
22 Q Well, we have a scale of 10 to 300 and a
23 scale of zero to 25 in two of these different columns.
24 Why was that scale chosen?
25 A I -- I can't answer that. I wasn't --
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1 that -- again, it was done utilizing -- looking at a
2 multitude of projects at the time to develop what felt
3 like was the correct criteria.
4 Q Would you be able to supply the commission
5 with the data and the study that came up with this
6 point system?
7 A I will able to do that, yes.
8 Q Do you know if this same point system is
9 used by other sewer districts or if this is unique to
10 MSD?
11 A I would have to research that, but it was
12 developed by MSD. So we do have municipalities, I
13 think it was discussed earlier, municipalities that
14 perform their own stormwater studies that have
15 utilized our same prioritization system.
16 Q Yeah. They may have used it, but did they
17 come up with any analysis to say that it was proper
18 before they used it?
19 A I can't answer that.
20 Q Has MSD ever conducted any testing of this
21 point system to see if it's still relevant, assuming
22 it ever was?
23 A Well, understand, we haven't had an
24 extensive capital improvement program, and that's kind
25 of why we're here today. But based on the current
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1 practices for -- since 2006, it's proved to be fairly
2 accurate in us addressing the problems that exist out
3 there.
4 Q How do you know it's accurate?
5 A I mean, we're -- again, we're addressing the
6 problems based on how they exist.
7 Q I understand you're addressing them in some
8 fashion, but you said this -- you know that this model
9 is accurate. And I'm asking you how you would know
10 that. Have you tested it in any way?
11 A I guess you'd have to explain what do you
12 mean by "tested it."
13 Q Well --
14 A Compared to something else? Like, I guess,
15 I -- again, you're asking me to compare it. And by
16 comparing it, what am I comparing it to?
17 Q I'm asking you that because you're the
18 expert. You told me this is an accurate test and
19 accurate model.
20 A In other words -- Okay. I'm addressing what
21 we feel, and it's addressing what we feel are the
22 highest priority problems that we have out in the
23 system.
24 Q Okay. And, again, I'm trying to figure out
25 why something is assigned different values relative to
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1 other values and how MSD came up with that matrix.
2 A I will -- I will agree to provide the report
3 that developed the prioritization system.
4 Q Okay. And you don't know if there's any
5 kind of algorithms or formulas that MSD uses with this
6 system?
7 A I will provide the report.
8 Q Now, if I understand this model correctly,
9 the MSD official is going out to the particular
10 homeowner or commercial property and looking at that
11 particular problem and applying this model; is that
12 right?
13 A Yeah. There's an assessment done of the
14 issue.
15 Q Okay. And would -- in doing that
16 assessment, would the employee look at other
17 properties around that same property to figure out if
18 there's a larger impact or a cumulative impact?
19 A Yes, we do. I mean, we have a database of
20 issues. So we don't just go out to one specific area,
21 if there's multitudes of flooding complaints in an
22 area. Obviously, we don't want to come up -- develop
23 a solution based on one piece of property, if it's a
24 larger scale solution, a larger storm system that
25 needs to be put in and such.
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1 Q How does this model show me that that
2 happens? Where is it in this process?
3 A Well, it actually, if -- if -- actually, if
4 you look at the solution in the benefit category,
5 if -- if there's a regional solution to multiple
6 problems, it receives additional benefit points, if
7 you look at page 3 of 3. In other words -- in other
8 words, if you're solving a number of problems in an
9 area, the project will get additional benefit points.
10 Q And so it's part of the methodology when one
11 of these reports is filled out, to go back and see if
12 there are other areas around this particular property
13 and then try and figure out whether there's a larger
14 regional issue?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you mentioned that environmental
17 solutions are given -- I think that was your phrase, I
18 may be -- if I'm mischaracterizing what you said, I
19 apologize -- were taken into account with the solution
20 benefits. Can you -- is that Section 4 of this
21 benefits category?
22 A Yes. Yes, it is.
23 Q And, again, the same that I -- what is the
24 AC -- what do those letters mean in the per 100 --
25 A Those are acreage.
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1 Q Okay. And so I see four bays and then it
2 says "acreage." Is there a number ratio with that
3 acreage or is it just -- I don't understand that.
4 A It's -- if in our solution -- and these --
5 and these probably -- primarily come into when you're
6 doing bio-stabilization adjacent to a creek. If you
7 develop or place any of these as part of the
8 solution -- and it's primarily for contaminants in
9 stormwater versus the actual solution. In other
10 words, you're providing an additional environmental
11 benefit if, in your solution, you have the ability to
12 incorporate these types of facilities, whether it be a
13 four-bay or a bioswale, things such as that, that
14 would provide some water quality benefit in addition
15 to address flooding and erosion.
16 Q Okay. And I see on here 200 points for a
17 four bay. Do those points increase if the four bay is
18 addressing, say, one acre of ground or --
19 A Yes, it would -- it would increase based on
20 the amount of these facilities that are put into
21 place.
22 Q So it would increase by the number of four
23 bays you install, but not by the fact that a four bay
24 is addressing 100 acres or one acre?
25 A Based on what's here, yes.
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1 Q Okay. And the reason I'm asking that
2 question is because above, there's a bioswale and it
3 says "per 100 lineal feet, there's ten points per
4 unit," which made me think that if I had a bioswale
5 that was, you know, longer, I got more points. Am
6 I -- is that right?
7 A That would be correct.
8 Q Okay. But that's not the same with respect
9 to wetlands, wet ponds and four bays, that if I'm
10 addressing more acreage, I'm getting more points?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And in the problem category, there's
13 something about one lot per 250 feet. What does that
14 mean and why was that chosen?
15 A Where are -- where are you at on the form?
16 In the flooding area?
17 Q Yes. It's 2.1.2, for example, allocate one
18 lot per 250 feet of roadway, impacted in two lots per
19 intersection, impacted. I just didn't understand what
20 it meant.
21 A I think that's basically referring to
22 roadway flooding and the amount of roadway that's
23 being flooded. And the number -- I think that allows
24 you if there's additional -- if there's more lots that
25 are impacted by the flooding.
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1 Q So if I had two lots, then, for example,
2 that would be impacted, would I increase the emergency
3 access points from 200 to 400 in that first square --
4 A I think I would have to -- I would have to
5 look at each specific situation to -- I think we're
6 getting somewhat hypothetical.
7 Q I'm just trying to understand the form.
8 It's MSD's form and it's the basis for this cost
9 benefit analysis that we're told MSD is using to
10 determine the prioritization of projects, and that's
11 why I'm asking the questions.
12 A I will -- I will provide the document that
13 developed the prioritization system.
14 Q I'd like to look at Exhibit J on the
15 stormwater credits. If you could -- I think it's
16 appendix J, actually. I apologize.
17 A Okay.
18 Q I want to make sure I understand how the
19 credit works. If somebody's applying for this credit
20 and it is awarded, then the amount that -- of the
21 credit is based on what the average MSD customer's
22 bill is and then they take one-half of that; is that
23 right? Or is it based on the particular customer's
24 bill?
25 A It -- which -- which credit are we referring
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1 to?
2 Q The residential credit.
3 A The residential, the incentive program?
4 Q Yes.
5 A And that -- can you ask the question again?
6 Q Sure. The formula for that credit, are they
7 using the average MSD bill for residential customers
8 as the basis or are they using individual customers
9 bills for the basis?
10 A What we show here is -- is calculating based
11 on the average, the $2.25 -- the average MSD customer.
12 It would vary based on -- if it were someone that had
13 a larger impervious area and were capturing a larger
14 impervious area. In other words, it would -- it would
15 change -- you know, again, all we've done is give an
16 example of the average MSD customer.
17 Q So if I applied for a credit, you would look
18 at my bill and what I'm -- what I'm paying for my
19 property and then calculate the credit based on that?
20 A Based on the amount of ERUs, yes, that you
21 capture.
22 Q Okay. In the middle of the 500 square feet,
23 to qualify for the credit, what was the basis for
24 that?
25 A That was just -- that was a diminished value
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1 that we felt like would require in order for you to
2 capture an amount to -- that would make any impact on
3 the reduction of flows.
4 Q And so if you were -- do you know how much
5 flow would be produced by -- would be abated by that?
6 A I don't know off the top of my head.
7 Q In a residential setting?
8 A No, but I can -- we can provide that.
9 Q Thank you. I would like to see that.
10 And what's the basis for a one-time credit
11 as opposed to getting a credit every year, for
12 example?
13 A Basically, it was -- it was easier to
14 implement that way with a residential customer as
15 opposed to reducing their -- their bill over a period
16 of time. Plus, there is -- there is -- there is
17 actually a capital outlay for a residential customer
18 to build one of these. So this would provide them
19 with somewhat of a capital outlay to construct it,
20 then pay it back over time with a reduction in their
21 bill.
22 Q Do you have any sense of what the average
23 cost would be for a customer to do one of these
24 projects?
25 A I don't know, but I can -- we could pull
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1 something together, what we think it might cost for
2 somebody. I don't know that off the top of my head.
3 Q And the reason I'm asking is, I'm trying to
4 evaluate whether this credit program is going to
5 really incentivize anyone or not. If a rain garden
6 costs $3,000 and you're getting $125 credit, I'm not
7 sure that's going to incentivize anyone to put in a
8 rain garden.
9 A Yeah, I think we provided that to show that
10 we -- we don't really expect there will be a lot. But
11 there are folks out there that are voluntarily putting
12 these in today as an environmental measure. So it
13 gives them the opportunity to take advantage of the
14 incentive.
15 Q Yeah, I think in the appendix, you've
16 estimated that the incentive program annual cost will
17 be $6,750. Is that your testimony?
18 A Yeah. Yes, it is. We don't anticipate that
19 we're going to see widespread building of residential
20 basins, but we do expect there will be some institute
21 of that.
22 Q Do you think if you increase the amount of
23 the credit, that that might cause to induce the
24 behavior of individual projects being created to abate
25 stormwater?
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1 A Understand, over 10 years you increase the
2 credit basically, then they wouldn't be paying the
3 bill. I mean, these bills aren't that large to begin
4 with, particularly for our residential customer. So
5 the larger credit you give, then basically you're not
6 charging them anything.
7 Q Well, that's a $562 million problem is what
8 I've heard, and you're thinking more again $6,750 of
9 credits annually. That doesn't seem like very much,
10 as a credit for that large of a problem. I don't
11 understand the relationship in those numbers as to
12 this being an effective program.
13 A I'm not sure.
14 Q Do you have an opinion about that? Do you
15 think that relative to the scope of this problem, that
16 that credit is meaningful?
17 A If we -- if we offer more credit, that's
18 that much less money that I have to construct
19 projects, though.
20 Q Well, if you are offering the credit,
21 presumably you're offering it because the project is
22 meaningful and helpful. So the fact that you're not
23 constructing the project, I don't know if that should
24 be determinative.
25 A I don't have an answer to that.
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1 Q Okay. And do you have examples of any other
2 credit programs that other sewer districts have put in
3 place?
4 A I'll defer to Henrietta Locklear, our
5 consultant, later, who has had a lot more research
6 with regard to incentive programs throughout the
7 mission.
8 Q And I'd asked earlier about homeowners
9 associations and their ability to take advantage of
10 this credit. Can you respond to that question?
11 A A homeowners association that -- obviously
12 they own property, which is generally the common
13 ground. If they have, say, a clubhouse or something
14 like that, actually they would be billed for that
15 clubhouse. But the base of that actually serves --
16 that was constructed to serve potentially the entire
17 subdivision, obvious -- usually, in most cases, were
18 put in because of a regulatory requirement.
19 Now, were they to take that basin and want to
20 enhance it to -- and apply for one of the credits, right
21 now we do not have anything in place that would credit
22 everybody that's tributary to that, just because of the
23 implementation. In other words, you would have to
24 determine who's all tributary to that basin, who gets
25 the reduction. And it's not even owned by those
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1 individual property owners. So right now we do not have
2 anything in place that would address that.
3 Q And typically with a residential
4 subdivision, you will have a detention basin. They've
5 been requiring them for a long time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And typically that is maintained or -- by
8 the trustees of a subdivision in St. Louis, or if you
9 have any incorporated association, that would be the
10 associations and its directors. And if that's their
11 only improvement, then they wouldn't -- that
12 association or the trustees would not be receiving a
13 bill; is that right?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q So they would not be able to take advantage
16 of this system?
17 A No, there would not be credit available to
18 them.
19 Q And if I understood your testimony earlier
20 about -- you were asked a question about comparing
21 residential and commercial properties and whether
22 they've been regulated with respect to stormwater, and
23 you made a comment about in the 1980s, a lot of the
24 systems that -- the systems that were put in, you're
25 finding were not as effective as they had hoped they
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1 would be. Is that -- did I hear that correctly?
2 A In other words -- yeah, I mean, detention --
3 stormwater detention hasn't been around forever. It
4 started in the '80s. And detention basins were
5 designed for a certain level of storm and a certain
6 criteria, and that criteria has evolved. In other
7 words, the regulatory requirements have become more
8 stringent over that period of time to what they are
9 today.
10 Q Yeah. And one of those changes is water
11 quality. It's something that if you're putting --
12 A That is correct.
13 Q -- a subdivision now, you have to take care
14 of water quality. Do you have any idea of what the
15 cost of maintaining a basin today is for a homeowners
16 association?
17 A I do not know those numbers and I don't
18 know -- as part of our inspection, I do not believe we
19 collect that information either.
20 Q Do you know if MSD has anything on its
21 website giving homeowners an idea of what that cost
22 would be?
23 A We do have a BMP toolbox. I don't -- I'm
24 not as familiar with it of whether there's cost
25 involved, but I -- there -- it possibly is.
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1 Q Yeah, my recollection is that there are and
2 those costs are pretty high. Which is why I'm
3 exploring the idea of how to make this credit
4 available for homeowners associations because there
5 are some surprising numbers that are in there.
6 A Well, understand that the BMPs and the
7 detention basins that are installed within a
8 subdivision are new commercial property, are
9 regulatory requirements and are not eligible for a
10 credit.
11 Q I understand that. And there are a lot of
12 subdivisions that are preexisting that don't have
13 those that are requiring enhancements. So if the cost
14 of maintaining those, if they put them in, are not in
15 any way commensurate with the credit, do you think
16 that they're going to undertake that improvement?
17 A I can't speak for individual homeowners
18 associations.
19 Q But there would be no way for them to get
20 the credit as it is now?
21 A Not as a subdivision, no.
22 Q Do you have any opinion as to whether it
23 would be useful to have these basins improved as part
24 of the MSD system?
25 A That'd be -- that'd be difficult to say.
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1 Each one would be different on where -- where it was
2 located and what impact it might have.
3 Q I'm not asking individually. I'm asking you
4 cumulatively is this -- would this be a good policy
5 rule for MSD?
6 A I really don't have an opinion on that.
7 Again, it -- it could vary.
8 Q Do you have an opinion about whether this
9 program that's been in place, the credit program, has
10 been effective given that there have only been 200
11 folks who have taken advantage of it over the years?
12 A I -- we don't -- what credit program are we
13 speaking of?
14 Q Well, the existing credit programs that you
15 have. I think you -- there was some data that 200
16 homeowners have taken -- or property owners have taken
17 advantage of that.
18 A No, that's data from our CSO. That's from
19 our green infrastructure program.
20 And what was the question again?
21 Q I'm asking whether you have an opinion as to
22 whether that has been an effective program, given the
23 number who have taken advantage of it?
24 A I don't know that it's been in place for
25 long enough. I mean, I -- it would -- it's only
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1 been -- the green infrastructure program has only been
2 in existence for -- as far as our CSO program for a
3 couple years. I mean, there's calculations that says
4 what it's supposed to impact.
5 Q How long a period of time would it take to
6 figure out whether it was effective?
7 A I'd have -- I can't answer that.
8 Q Do you know if there were any projections as
9 to how many property owners were expected to take
10 advantage of the program?
11 A I think we probably have that information in
12 our CSO green pilot report that we submitted to EPA as
13 part of our consent decree, and I could provide that.
14 Q And I assume you don't know whether you are
15 meeting those projections or not, as you sit here
16 today?
17 A Again, the -- that program has only been in
18 place for a couple years. In other words, we're
19 required to -- that's a 23-year program. We're
20 required to make that assessment at the end of the
21 23-year program.
22 Q So there was no annual projection --
23 A No.
24 Q -- with that in mind?
25 COMMISSIONER GOSS: I don't have any other
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1 questions. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Goss.
3 I think we will take a lunch break and
4 finish questions from the rest of the rate
5 commissioners. We'll take a half-hour break for lunch
6 till 12:45 and ask the rate commissioners to hold the
7 remainder of their questions until we return after
8 lunch.
9 (Whereupon, a brief lunch break was taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Go back in session.
11 I understand that Mr. Beckmann is on a tight
12 timeframe and has a couple of questions he would like
13 to ask. So we're going to field a few questions from
14 Mr. Beckmann and then Mr. Schoedel.
15 Mr. Beckmann, please go ahead.
16 COMMISSIONER BECKMANN: I will. Thank you.
17 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BECKMANN:
18 Q Rich, on the stormwater discussion and
19 assessments and the -- the cost benefit analyses, are
20 those performed by MSD staff or by engineering
21 consultants?
22 A They're -- I'll turn my microphone back on.
23 They're performed by -- performed by MSD staff.
24 Primarily within our operations group, there will be a
25 call that has come in and then they'll -- they'll do
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1 initial assessment. And then if there's further
2 assessment, then they'll assign that -- they'll send
3 it up as an issue requiring a project, and then my
4 planning staff then will do it.
5 Now, if we're going through a big planning
6 effort where there's a large group of projects, we may
7 use a consultant. But I would say probably 90 percent
8 of the time, it's MSD doing that analysis.
9 Q Okay. Good. Because I wondered how you
10 kind of ensured some uniformity if it was done by
11 others. So I think that's positive.
12 Relative to the impervious charge, at what
13 point is MSD's measured area and the proposed charge
14 provided to property owners in the -- in the whole
15 scheme of things?
16 A Like I said we -- earlier, we've beta tested
17 now. We just need to -- we're working on a commercial
18 property right now making sure that everything is
19 there. But I would suspect that we would have that
20 ready fairly soon. It's just -- it'd probably take
21 more -- we've got it ready to go. It's getting it
22 onto our internet and onto this site that we have for
23 the rate commission.
24 Q So there will be something sent to customers
25 to say, "Go look at the website to see what your bill
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1 is going to be" or --
2 A I think probably where it's going to come
3 out would be in the publication of where we could
4 advertise it with the publication of the rate
5 commission public hearings. That would probably be
6 the ideal time to notify customers that it's out
7 there.
8 Q Okay. But there will be -- it will be
9 publicized?
10 A Yeah, as soon as we put it on there.
11 Obviously, we haven't discussed in detail how we want
12 to advertise. We wanted to get it working first.
13 Q Understood. Thank you.
14 One more question, back to the rate proposal
15 provided on February 26. In the appendices in C, it
16 cites an escalation number of 3.7 percent that is used
17 over the course of, I guess your five-year or whatever
18 multiple year term of projects. You know, I put
19 together multiple year project programs before myself,
20 and I think that's kind of a high number at first
21 glance. I'd like to know how you based that and in
22 applying it over a five-year period. I think that
23 should be reviewed.
24 A Are you looking at the 3.7 inflation?
25 Q Yes.
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1 A Okay. Yeah, I'll definitely defer to Marion
2 on that and our expert -- or our consultant.
3 Q Okay. I mean, yeah, if you apply that over
4 a five-year period, kind of a number that I think is
5 higher than inflationary for construction, typically
6 you're going to have a lot of -- a lot of funds.
7 Okay.
8 A All right. We will make note of that. And
9 if you can, if you don't mind, ask that question of
10 Marion or Tom.
11 Q I may not be here. I'll count on one of my
12 associates.
13 A Right. Someone else. Okay.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We'll ask Marion to
15 address that as part of his comments.
16 COMMISSIONER BECKMANN: That's all. Thank
17 you.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Beckmann.
19 Mr. Schoedel.
20 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL:
21 Q Just a follow-up to Commissioner Goss's on
22 the validity of the point system and any impact on the
23 cost benefit ratio. You testified that you would
24 provide information on how the form was established.
25 It appears that there's been some revisions, as your
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1 form indicates it has been revised. You also
2 testified that you've been using it internally for
3 stormwater projects.
4 When you present how the form and process
5 was established, could you provide what was revised in
6 any anecdotal information as to the present success of
7 the form, especially with respect to any homeowner
8 input?
9 A We can provide that.
10 Q Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions,
12 Mr. Schoedel?
13 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Yes.
14 Q (By Commissioner Schoedel) On -- with regard
15 to the credits, when you're a homeowner and you've
16 gotten a credit, and then you sell your house, is that
17 maintenance agreement then transferable to the new
18 owner? Do they have a chance to -- do they say, "I no
19 longer want it," or how are you going to handle that?
20 A So since it's a voluntary basin, then if
21 they chose not to have the basin, then we would remove
22 the credit from the property.
23 Q Then it'd automatically go to the new
24 homeowner?
25 A Yeah. The credit, just like the bill,
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1 belongs to the property.
2 Q Okay. And then my second question is more
3 of a hypothetical. Since you state that the BMP
4 credit for both commercial and residential is only for
5 new construction -- let's say I have a grocery store
6 with six other buildings in a small commercial
7 development they built 15 or 20 years ago that doesn't
8 have any BMPs. I built one last year that does have
9 the BMP that you require. The older one could go back
10 and get a credit since he's building the same swales
11 and detention as what's already there. Is that going
12 to -- I'm afraid that might open up a fair and
13 reasonable-type argument that "I've got the same
14 thing, but I can't get a credit just because mine is
15 not new"?
16 A Well, keep in mind, one of them was
17 regulatorily required and the other one wasn't a
18 regulatory requirement at the time. I kind of go back
19 to the discussion I had where the regulations when we
20 first started having detention basins was less and
21 they weren't as efficient as we are today with the
22 capture of runoff. Then, obviously, if there's an
23 opportunity for somebody to upgrade that would
24 cause -- would allow -- basically create a benefit,
25 then, obviously, you'd want to provide them a credit
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1 to do that.
2 Q I think -- I'm drawing it mainly out so the
3 lawyers can ponder on it and make sure we aren't doing
4 anything that might cause an issue down the road from
5 a --
6 A You know, one of the other things I wanted
7 to address, either -- you have basins out there,
8 again, that were older. If the district -- if, in our
9 search for a solution for, say, a downstream flooding
10 problem felt like an enhancement of an existing basin
11 would solve that issue for us, then we probably would
12 pay to have that basin enhanced in order to address
13 that issue, if that's the correct solution.
14 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Okay. That's all.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
16 Yes, Commissioner Mahfood.
17 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD:
18 Q Rich, just going back to something that was
19 discussed before on the stormwater incentives and
20 credits. You know, as I've looked at what we're
21 proposing here and then just even anecdotally running
22 over to Ms. Locklear's answers to similar questions,
23 what I'm used to seeing are ongoing credit and
24 incentive programs, not one-time programs. Can you
25 give me an idea of how you chose the one-time program
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1 that only incentivizes a one-time payment? Was that
2 for ease? Was that --
3 A I think it was a combination. One, on the
4 residential was ease, but we also felt like, again,
5 there's a capital outlay with regard to that basin,
6 particularly for a residential customer that was
7 willing to do that and wanting to do that, provide
8 some capital initially to do that. Let's say if it
9 was $3,000 to construct, they're getting that 5,000
10 over 10 years on their bill, whatever it took to pay
11 that back.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And that was kind of the thought process as
14 opposed to a credit program.
15 Q Well, I know probably Ms. Locklear can
16 address this a little differently, but I'm looking at
17 other programs that have done similar kinds of things.
18 I don't necessarily agree with the concept that we
19 can't incorporate better incentives into this rate
20 structure so that we actually reduce the impacts, and
21 it may not directly affect what's been agreed to in
22 the consent agreement, but it could very well
23 indirectly be a help in reducing the amount of runoff.
24 And I'm -- I am concerned about -- about the incentive
25 program not being strong enough and -- and forceful
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1 enough to have an impact.
2 A One thing to recall -- the one thing you
3 have to think about for the incentive program is what
4 that credit -- in other words, you do want to
5 incentivize because it does provide a benefit to have
6 this. But if you look at the cost of the incentive
7 program versus what we're actually collecting from,
8 say, a single resident, you want that to be
9 somewhat -- there needs to be a payback period that is
10 going to be beneficial to you.
11 Q I understand that. I'm just -- there's --
12 it just -- I mean, from a philosophy standpoint, it
13 seems like -- I just feel like there may be other
14 methodologies or some other bell or whistle that could
15 be attached to this to -- to -- instead of being able
16 to project 50, maybe we would have 500 people who want
17 to participate in the -- in the program, if it -- you
18 know, if it makes sense.
19 A Yeah, I think Heather might be able to
20 answer to what she's seen out there in other areas.
21 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: Okay. Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Mahfood.
23 Further questions for Mr. Unverferth?
24 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Yes. Mr. Chairman,
25 it's Lloyd Palans. If there are no other commissioners
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1 that want to question before I request the opportunity,
2 I would like to ask some questions.
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: The floor is yours.
4 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you.
5 TELEPHONIC QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER PALANS:
6 Q Mr. Unverferth, we're all here today because
7 we share a common goal and that is to remediate the
8 flooding and erosion problems within the district.
9 And as you so accurately described, this problem has
10 been around a long time. Many, many years. My
11 question to you is simply this: Will $562 million
12 remediate the flooding and a rise in erosion problems
13 within the 520 miles that encompass our district?
14 A It will over time. I know Mr. Hoelscher got
15 into this a little bit about, you know, issues that
16 we're not aware of now and issues within that
17 $562 million that will be further vetted as we move
18 forward into a program.
19 I've been looking at stormwater prob -- again,
20 I've been here for 31 years and I've been looking at
21 stormwater problems for a long time. I've always used
22 the 25 percent rule. Out of that 562 million,
23 25 percent of those are going to go away, either they've
24 been taken care of by some other issue, or what one
25 person deems as an issue is not what another person
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1 deems as an issue. And if I get a big rain event next
2 year, I'm going to have a few more issues that pop up.
3 So it's difficult for me to say right now
4 that, yes, if we implement this program, we're going to
5 be able to address $562 million worth of problems. We
6 will. It's going to take time.
7 I think what we try to do is propose a program
8 that our customer will be willing to pay for. The thing
9 to understand is not all of our customers have an issue.
10 They're not always -- they're not all subject to
11 flooding. They're not all subject to erosion. So we
12 felt like we picked a number that was appropriate to
13 feel that people would be willing to help their friends
14 and neighbors that may be experiencing these issues.
15 Did that answer your question?
16 Q Mr. Unverferth, well, it does, but I'd like
17 to inquire a little bit further. If I understand the
18 proposal, the $562 million are, in your words, based
19 on a minimal amount of detailed information. They are
20 conceptual in nature and it has been formulated, in
21 your words, without doing much engineering. Am I
22 characterizing the sizing of this correctly?
23 A Yes. Yes, you are. And, generally, they
24 get reanalyzed as they get closer into the program.
25 Generally, you know, projects that come up on a
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1 priority system within, say, the next one or two years
2 will get analyzed further into the program to refine
3 the actual scope of the work that's required. So you
4 do see some -- for lack of a better term, some scope
5 in increase, but at the same time, you've got those
6 projects that actually go away at the same time.
7 Q Well, because this is conceptual in nature,
8 based on a minimal amount of detailed information
9 without doing much engineering, are you highly
10 confident, somewhat confident, or not confident at all
11 that $562 million will remediate our problems?
12 A I would -- I would gauge it as somewhat
13 confident, just based on -- on what we know
14 historically and our ability to -- in other words, the
15 solutions that we come up with aren't always the
16 perfect solution, but for the most part, we use -- try
17 to use sound engineering judgment in the development
18 of our solutions and then -- and then the development
19 of the conceptual cost.
20 Q And you base this request on what you
21 believe your customers will pay; correct?
22 A Yes. What we did through our public
23 information, gathering what -- what our customer is
24 willing to pay to provide this service.
25 Q And you've done that in lieu of addressing a
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1 more detailed study to size the scope of this problem?
2 A Yeah, we -- yes. Understand, in order to
3 take that $562 million and refine that scope takes
4 funding and -- in other words, go through that effort
5 and then not have funding to do the work, there's an
6 expenditure involved and, again, does -- in some cases
7 what I've seen over time, just like it did back in
8 2008, all of a sudden, it sets an expectation level if
9 I'm out there doing an engineering analysis on a
10 project that may never happen.
11 Q In this proposal envision, no external
12 borrowings and no third-party funding; correct?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q And this lack of funding to address the
15 stormwater remediation has been around a long time. I
16 believe you mentioned some projects have been there
17 over 30 years; right?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And given the lack of funding to address the
20 remediation needs, do you believe it would be good
21 policy decision on the part of the district to
22 encourage third-party funds to contribute to the
23 remediation problems?
24 A I -- I don't have an opinion on that.
25 Q Well, if third-party funds were injected,
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1 you could complete more projects; correct?
2 A And, again, it would be based on -- I mean,
3 that's somewhat hypothetical on where those
4 third-party funds would come from.
5 Q Well, if third-party funds were encouraged
6 to be invested in the remediation, effective projects
7 could be completed faster; correct?
8 A If those third-party funds allowed me to
9 use -- if the funds would allow me to use
10 district-wide based on our prioritization system, I'd
11 say that's -- that's accurate.
12 Q And I'm contemplating that the public funds
13 would be used consistent with your cost benefit ratio
14 in prioritizing these projects. Assuming the
15 third-party funds are contributed, with that in mind,
16 consistent with your cost benefit analysis, you would
17 be able on behalf of the district to conserve your
18 resources; correct?
19 A Again, that's somewhat -- somewhat
20 hypothetical. Depending on where those funds come
21 from, because if they're coming from, say, a specific
22 entity, they're going to have possibly different
23 priorities than I am.
24 Q Well, I'm talking about funds coming from
25 affected residential owners, commercial property
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1 owners, or municipalities. You would be able with
2 these funds to complete more projects, complete more
3 projects faster, and conserve resources of the
4 district. Is that a fair statement?
5 A So you're -- you're referring to somewhat of
6 a cost-share program? Is that what you're referring
7 to? Like a 50/50 program?
8 Q Yes. Consistent with your cost benefit
9 analysis.
10 A Consistent with our cost benefit analysis,
11 yes, but we haven't seen too many people knocking on
12 our door wanting to give us 50/50 on preparing -- in
13 other words, they feel like these are MSD issues to
14 address.
15 Q But this -- but the use of third-party funds
16 would encourage public-private partnerships to
17 remediate our problems, would it not?
18 A It would, but this -- our current proposal
19 does not take that into consideration.
20 Q And I'm suggesting that the district should
21 consider creating a policy that would allow the use of
22 third-party funds consistent with your cost benefit
23 ratio to remediate the project district-wide. That's
24 just my suggestion.
25 I would like to turn to your testimony on
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1 page 5, question 18, if you have that handy.
2 A I will shortly. Okay.
3 Q Question 18 poses a question "What resources
4 will the district need to successfully manage,
5 construct, and complete the expanded stormwater CIRP
6 presented in its rate proposal?" And then the last
7 sentence in that -- in your response states, "The
8 department estimates approximately 40 internal FTEs to
9 deliver the program consisting of existing staff and
10 new hires." Do you see that sentence?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q And FTE is a full-time employee; is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes, it is.
15 Q So you're -- are you saying that in order to
16 implement a project that will raise $30 million a year
17 devoted to these CIRP stormwater projects, you need 40
18 full-time employees?
19 A That's to deliver the entire program. Keep
20 in mind that some of those employees currently exist
21 today and are being utilized to deliver the
22 proposition at the current stormwater program, which
23 is somewhat less than this in the original OMCI areas.
24 So it's not 40 additional employees; it's a total of
25 40.
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1 Q And how many of the 40 are existing
2 employees and how many are new hires?
3 A Right now I can't answer that because it's
4 going to -- depending on the timing and the initiation
5 of this particular rate that -- or this funding with
6 relative to the current wastewater, because our
7 current wastewater program will be in a downturn or be
8 reducing at that time. And so I haven't -- we don't
9 have the complete analysis that would say how many new
10 employees. Because I would be able to utilize people
11 currently working on the wastewater program to be
12 utilized for the stormwater program. This is
13 particularly with regard to inspection personnel.
14 Q And the next question 19 says, "What cost
15 for the engineering department have been added to the
16 rate proposal associated with this increase in
17 stormwater CIRP?" And your answer references page 4-7
18 of the rate proposal. Do you have page 4-7 of the
19 rate proposal handy? That's MSD 1.
20 A I'm getting there. I'm sorry. I was
21 looking for table 4-7. Okay.
22 Go ahead.
23 Q Do you have it in front of you?
24 A Yes.
25 Q It says that the operating costs are
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1 comprised of engineering staff that managed the
2 proposed stormwater in CIRP and costs to generate and
3 maintain the district impervious area data utilized to
4 generate the billing data.
5 When I look at table 4-6, I want you to help
6 me out on this. Where is the line item for
7 engineering and operation cost?
8 A It's under "capital labor."
9 Q So I am looking at engineering and
10 operations. When I'm looking at this table, I see no
11 expenses identified for engineering or operations. Am
12 I reading that correctly?
13 A Yes, you are. The cost --
14 Q But you --
15 A The cost for the internal labor that we just
16 previously discussed is actually capitalized towards
17 the project that we complete. So it's under that line
18 item "capital labor."
19 Q So you're suggesting that the $30 million of
20 capital improvements are really allocated not just for
21 capital improvements but also for labor?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And by quick count, I'm looking at roughly
24 over this period of time through 2024, approximately
25 18 to $20 million allocated to capital labor?
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1 A Yes. That's the plan, design, and construct
2 the -- develop the projects in the CIRP.
3 Q And those are for internal expenses of
4 employees that you're devoting to do this; correct?
5 A Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have no
7 further questions.
8 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans.
9 Further questions for this witness?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I have a couple,
12 Mr. Unverferth.
13 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
14 Q In the conversation that we had earlier
15 about the chart and various hypothetical uses for the
16 point system, would it be possible for you to take
17 some representative examples from your list of
18 projects and provide us with the specific ratings that
19 would illustrate how that chart is used?
20 A We would be able to do that.
21 Q Several from various categories --
22 A Various types of projects.
23 Q -- that would help us illustrate and
24 understand some of the issues that we've discussed
25 here before. Thank you.
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1 A We can provide that.
2 Q My second -- and that -- my second question
3 then would be, I think it was mentioned that district
4 staff is providing or is generating the input into
5 those charts. I would like to know what steps are
6 being taken internally to provide consistency of data
7 entry, that Inspector X may have a lot different
8 approach to that rating than Inspector Y, than
9 Inspector Z. And I have a concern that, quite
10 frankly, there's a lot -- we can make this look as
11 objective as possible, but there's still -- any steps
12 that the district is taking to minimize subjectivity
13 and increase objectivity --
14 A To maintain consistency.
15 Q -- in this process is extremely important, I
16 think, to make. So I would hope that you would do
17 that, if that's possible.
18 A I will provide you with something.
19 Q My third question has to do with the cost
20 generation. I understand, as well as anybody, that
21 there are different levels of estimating the
22 conceptual estimate, preliminary estimate, et cetera,
23 et cetera. And I think to go to the point Mr. Palans
24 made again, any process to not get this down to every
25 nail and bolt that has to be put into it, but that
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1 there is some consistency of the cost estimates and
2 something to assure the accuracy within some realistic
3 range for those cost estimates, I think is important
4 for us -- for the district to be able to illustrate.
5 If you could provide that information also.
6 A Yeah, we typically -- the district analyzes
7 its cost estimating quantities and bid items,
8 generally, on an annual basis. And if there's
9 significant movement in those, we then move that, do
10 that same movement with our conceptual cost estimate.
11 So I can provide you the last time we did that and how
12 often.
13 Q And as -- over a program of this time scope,
14 some information about how those costs -- costs would
15 be adjusted over time or the ratings would be adjusted
16 over time would be helpful.
17 My last question has to do with an issue
18 that I asked of Mr. Hoelscher about, and I'll ask you
19 about it also. It has to do with this cost-sharing,
20 the public-private partnership.
21 I would guess that if I looked at the list
22 of projects for year 1, and my project on your app
23 showed that I was in year 2, and I saw heavy rain
24 coming, I may be willing to spend some money with the
25 district to accelerate my project. And I would think
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1 that some proviso for that, whether it's for a
2 commercial property or a residential property or a
3 homeowner or whoever, that some methodology to pull --
4 address the problem more quickly and provide the
5 district with additional outside resources, I would
6 like to see you-all speak to that also, if possible.
7 A Okay.
8 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Those are my three
9 questions.
10 Any other questions from any of the other
11 rate commissioners?
12 Ms. Myers, do you have further questions for
13 the witness?
14 MS. MYERS: I do not.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Unverferth.
16 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Myers, are you ready
18 to call your next witness?
19 MS. MYERS: Yes, sir. That would be Marion
20 Gee.
21 (The witness was duly sworn.)
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Does any member of the
23 rate commission have questions for Mr. Gee at this
24 point?
25 All right. Mr. Neuschafer.
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1 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Yes.
2 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
3 Q Hello, Mr. Gee.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q We've asked Mr. Hoelscher earlier, and then
6 Mr. -- or Commissioner Palans just raised some other
7 issues around whether MSD has considered bond funding
8 for this program. And I understand from
9 Mr. Hoelscher's testimony earlier today that bond
10 funding was not considered?
11 A Well, we -- in the proposal itself, we do
12 not anticipate issuing debt to fund this particular
13 program. There are a number of reasons for that. One
14 of the reasons is, if you look at the types of
15 projects that we're proposing, they do not generate
16 assets for MSD. For instance, erosion control.
17 That's not an asset of the district. Typically, when
18 you issue tax exempt bonds, you have to have some kind
19 of ownership interest in that particular asset. With
20 these projects, we do not; so it calls into question
21 if we would even be able to issue tax exempt bonds to
22 fund a large portion of this -- this program.
23 Another reason is, if you look at just the
24 size of the program itself, $30 million a year, if we
25 were to, let's say fund $15 million of that 30 million,
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1 look at just historically what you would pay for that,
2 we would pay $30 million over a 30-year period of time
3 for a borrowing of approximately $15 million.
4 If you looked at the impact that's going to
5 have on a $2.25 rate for the majority of our residential
6 customers, you actually -- borrowing is more expensive
7 over time because then we have a number of issues that
8 we have to factor in. There could be a requirement for
9 reserves that would be placed on that borrowing, meaning
10 that you actually have to borrow more money than what
11 it's going to cost to construct those projects.
12 You also have to be concerned with
13 debt-service coverage levels, which, again, would
14 require you to fund additional monies to basically -- to
15 construct these projects. And long-term, we just don't
16 think it's going to be in the best interest of our
17 customers to do that given -- again, we're asking for
18 $2.25 a month for the majority of our residential
19 customers.
20 A couple of other considerations that we also
21 kind of looked at, in addition to just the small amount
22 that we're talking about, we're going to have to
23 continue to borrow to fund our consent decree program
24 problem on the wastewater side of the house here.
25 There's definitely a concern with the amount
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1 of debt that we're going to have to issue in the future.
2 That, of course, is going to require additional rate
3 increases on the part of customers to kind of fund that
4 as well. And you start factoring in additional debt on
5 the stormwater side, that could create some issues for
6 us in terms of how MSD is rated, given the amount of
7 debt that we would be placing on our books; so that can
8 trickle over to the wastewater side.
9 Now, if the ratings per se were adjusted for
10 the district as a whole, let's say our rating's
11 downgraded, that could result in additional cost, not
12 only for stormwater customers, but for wastewater
13 customers as well.
14 So, again, given the size of the capital
15 program that we're looking at, the amount of money that
16 we're asking for from ratepayers, and the fact that some
17 of the assets that we are going to construct or work on
18 are not MSD assets, we did not think that it was
19 pertinent to issue debt for this particular program.
20 Q Okay. A few follow-up questions there.
21 Your first point was related to the need for an
22 ownership interest. If I understood correctly, I
23 don't recall who, Mr. Hoelscher or Mr. Unverferth,
24 testified that some of the assets would be acquired or
25 would be owned by MSD. This was in relation to
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1 ongoing O&M costs.
2 A Some of the assets would. But, again, if
3 you look at the program as a whole, there's a large
4 portion of that program, especially those that pertain
5 to erosion control that are not owned by MSD. So we
6 have to look at this from an entire program
7 perspective.
8 Q Did you have an estimate of what would be
9 owned by MSD versus what wouldn't be owned?
10 A Well, yes, actually, I would refer you to --
11 there's a capital project listing that is in the rate
12 change proposal itself. It identifies the types of
13 programs or the types of projects. It lists erosion
14 control, flooding. I have not gone through and looked
15 at a particular project, but I have looked at the
16 categories.
17 Q What categories would involve future MSD
18 ownership of assets?
19 A Well, I can tell you the ones that I think
20 that would not. I don't think that erosion control
21 projects would. I think some of the flood protection
22 projects that are listed would not necessarily result
23 in MSD ownership. There are projects that are listed
24 in there in which we're constructing storm sewers.
25 Those would be assets that the district more than
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1 likely would own.
2 Q You talked about the relatively small size
3 of how much you would need to borrow through debt
4 financing or borrowing financing. Could MSD
5 accelerate projects to, you know, borrow more in the
6 beginning, accelerate projects instead of doing them
7 over a 20-year period, and increase the amount of debt
8 in order to accelerate the project?
9 A It's not necessarily a small amount of
10 projects per se. Even if you accelerate it, if you
11 issue more debt, again, there -- the issue that we
12 have is you're issuing debt on the wastewater side of
13 the house to fund our consent decree program; so now
14 you're adding more debt to our balance sheet. So the
15 concern would be how that would be viewed by the folks
16 that we borrow the money from.
17 More specifically, I would have concerns as to
18 how our rating agencies review that accelerated debt for
19 this type of program versus the consent decree, which we
20 are required by law to do.
21 Q Using the hypothetical of 15 million, if you
22 borrowed half, I mean, on the one hand, I'm hearing
23 you suggest that that's not a lot of money, that's not
24 enough to borrow. But on the other hand, you're --
25 you're expressing concerns about bond ratings and debt
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1 load.
2 A Well, what -- what --
3 Q I'm not seeing -- I'm sensing some
4 inconsistency there.
5 A What I believe I said was that the
6 $15 million, if you borrowed it, would not
7 significant -- would not have a significant impact on
8 the $2.25 rate.
9 Q Like cut the rate in half potentially?
10 A I don't believe that you're going to be able
11 to cut the rate in half by necessarily borrowing half.
12 I know it sounds like if you borrowed half, you'd be
13 able to cut the rate in half, but you wouldn't be able
14 to do that. You still have $15 million that would be
15 funded through rates. You would have the debt-service
16 on that $15 million that would also be in rates. You
17 would have other requirements that we more than likely
18 would have to meet. Again, we'd probably have to have
19 some kind of cash reserve. We'd have to have an
20 amount built in for minimum debt-service coverage.
21 We'd have to have a minimum fund balance if we
22 borrowed. So all those things factored in, it's not a
23 dollar-for-dollar reduction if you borrow it.
24 Q Do you know, what is -- what is MSD's
25 current debt?
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1 A I would have to look at our balance sheet to
2 be quite honest with you. I'm thinking it's in the
3 range of about 2-point-something billion, but I'd have
4 to get the correct number for you.
5 Q Okay. We'd appreciate that --
6 A Yeah.
7 Q -- if we can see that.
8 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Thank you. That's all I've
9 got. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
11 Ms. Stump, questions for Mr. Gee?
12 MS. STUMP: Thank you. Yes, I have a few.
13 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
14 Q Do you have your testimony in front of you?
15 A I do.
16 Q We haven't had the pleasure of doing this
17 before, have we?
18 A We have not.
19 Q How about we start with question 9 where you
20 talk about inflation allowances. And in response to
21 the question of whether the inflation allowances are
22 reasonable, you include yes, and then talk about how
23 they can be found in appendix C of the rate proposal?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Can we pull -- now that I made you look for
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1 that -- can we pull out the rate proposal, appendix C,
2 and can you kind of walk through those inflation rate
3 numbers and explain to me a little bit about why you
4 believe they're reasonable.
5 A Yes, I can. First of all, I will start with
6 the inflation 3.7 percent that was used with regards
7 to the capital improvement program. We obtained that
8 number -- it's actually for the 12 months ended
9 April 30th of 2017, in the Engineering News Record.
10 We also supplied in response to, I believe it was the
11 second -- second discovery, there were additional
12 questions that were asked with respect to that. Give
13 me a moment to find it.
14 Q Sure. So 31A you think?
15 A Yes. It was actually in response to your
16 question no. 2.
17 Q Okay.
18 A In Exhibit MSD 31A. I believe the question
19 was, does MSD look at a longer time arising with
20 regards to the inflation rate that was utilized and we
21 did. If you look at, for instance, a three-year
22 inflation rate, using that calculation, was
23 5.7 percent. Five years is 4.8 percent and 10 years,
24 from that 10-year time period, it was actually
25 3.9 percent. So the rate that we actually used was
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1 the most conservative rate. If we would have used any
2 of these other rates, the cost would have actually
3 been more.
4 Q Okay. Is there anything else you want to
5 say about the inflation rates and why you think
6 they're --
7 A No.
8 Q -- reasonable?
9 A Other than we looked at, again, data that is
10 commonly used. We utilized that in our projections;
11 so in my opinion, the rates that we used are
12 reasonable.
13 Q Thank you. Now, back to your testimony,
14 question 11 on page 3 -- you don't have to find this
15 one -- but it says that you -- you stated that the
16 2019 preliminary budget would be provided to the board
17 by March 15th. I just wanted -- has it been provided?
18 A Yes, it has. It's actually available on the
19 MSD website.
20 MS. STUMP: Okay. And I would ask Ms. Myers
21 maybe if we could submit it as an exhibit?
22 MS. MYERS: Okay.
23 MS. STUMP: Thank you.
24 Q (By Ms. Stump) Okay. Question 12, page 3,
25 line 19 and 20. You estimate that the annual cost of
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1 the incentive credits will be $467,000. Can you
2 explain how we got to that number -- you got to that
3 number?
4 A Yes. So we obtained a listing of the
5 potential credits and the participation in those
6 credits from our engineering division. And we went
7 through and actually costed that out and the grand
8 total came to the $467,000 that is in my testimony.
9 Q And when you say potential credits and the
10 cost -- explain to me a little bit more what you got
11 from the engineering group.
12 A Yeah. What we did was we looked at the
13 number of customers that are participating in our
14 credits programs now and how much that value would be
15 per se. And so based on that information, we
16 calculated what an estimated credit would be for that
17 number of customers.
18 Q So that's based on your other credit
19 programs?
20 A Correct. It's all of our credit programs.
21 Q Okay. Other amounts included in the rate
22 proposal include a 4 percent bad debt percentage;
23 correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And then there was some amount for expenses
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1 to implement the new stormwater capital rate?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q With regard to that amount for expenses,
4 what is that amount and how is that computed?
5 A Well, we went through and we looked at what
6 would it cost us to -- the number varies -- the number
7 varies to actually get the program up and running.
8 For instance, in the finance department, obviously,
9 there's going to be some additional bill expenses --
10 billing expenses, particularly for those customers
11 that we currently do not bill for wastewater. So we
12 estimated, I think, that there's roughly 40,000, what
13 I would call stormwater only customers; so we're going
14 to have to bill those individuals.
15 There are also changes to our billing system
16 that we're going to have to make to allow us to actually
17 bill for stormwater. We have to implement the tiered
18 structure if we go that route. So those costs were
19 calculated and included in the proposal.
20 In addition, as Rich testified earlier, there
21 are some expenses that -- from engineering that we had
22 to build into our projections as well, particularly
23 folks that actually work on the capital side or the
24 capital labor that Rich described earlier.
25 Q Okay. I want to talk about billing in a
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1 minute, but since I mentioned the bad debt percentage,
2 I believe that Mr. Brockmann asked Mr. Hoelscher
3 earlier about past data on that?
4 A Oh, yes. I believe the question was, is how
5 MSD had our actuals compared to budget and so I'll
6 give you the last -- the figures for the last two
7 audited fiscal years. In the fiscal year '16, we
8 actually budgeted approximately $4.9 million to bad
9 debt expenses. Our actual expenses were 4.1 million.
10 On fiscal year '17, we budgeted $2.7 million
11 for bad debt expenses. Our actual expenses were
12 2.5 million. So if you look at that two-year period of
13 time, we budgeted 7.6 million. We actually incurred
14 expenses of 6.6 million.
15 Q Thank you. So back to billing, question 21
16 on page 5. You state that it will be billed monthly
17 on wastewater customer bills no matter what the ERU
18 is, and then bills will be issued to non-wastewater
19 customers with an impervious area greater than 20
20 ERUs. So what happens to the non-wastewater customers
21 with an impervious area less than that?
22 A They would actually -- non-wastewater
23 customers with an impervious surface area of --
24 Q Area less than the 20 ERU.
25 A Well, we would bill those individuals. That
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1 should say if it's less than 20, they're billed
2 quarterly.
3 Q Quarterly. Okay.
4 A Correct. If it's more than 20, we would
5 bill those monthly.
6 Q So everyone will still get a bill for the
7 new stormwater capital rate. The only difference is
8 how frequently?
9 A Correct. And the rationale behind that is
10 simply one of cost. We're certainly -- if we had a
11 residential customer and they were not an MSD sewer
12 customer, let's say that they're on a septic tank, and
13 their bill is going to be $2.25, it certainly would
14 not be economical for us to bill -- send a bill out
15 and go through the expense of generating it to get a
16 $2.25 payment from those customers.
17 Q So in your opinion, as the director of
18 finance for the district, is the stormwater capital
19 fair and reasonable?
20 A Yes, I believe it is.
21 Q Okay. A couple other things have come up.
22 There's been a lot of discussion about the
23 cost-sharing policies and the discussion Mr. Hoelscher
24 had earlier about, you know, not wanting to give
25 affluent groups the benefit of essentially kind of
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1 buying their projects up in the schedule. Do you
2 recall that discussion --
3 A I do.
4 Q -- when he talked about how the policy was?
5 Is this a written policy that the district has on
6 these types of issues or is it one more of practice?
7 And if you don't -- I'm asking you because you're the
8 last district representative.
9 A It's not a policy that I am aware of. I
10 think, to be quite honest with you, it's probably an
11 issue of one that's of fairness. If all of our
12 customers are going to pay this rate, then I think
13 they should have an opportunity to have their projects
14 constructed.
15 Q So to your knowledge -- and I can follow up
16 in writing to the district -- but to your knowledge,
17 it's not a written policy of the board of trustees?
18 A To my knowledge, I'm not aware of a policy.
19 Q Thank you. And then did you hear
20 Mr. Beckmann's question earlier?
21 A I don't recall which question. I heard
22 several questions, but I don't specifically recall the
23 one that you're referring to. Can you repeat the
24 question?
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: It was inflation. I think
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1 it was the 3.7 percent inflation rate.
2 A Okay. Yeah. That's the question I actually
3 addressed a moment ago. I think from -- can you
4 repeat the question so I can --
5 Q (By Ms. Stump) With that we were talking
6 about inflation. The question you addressed a moment
7 ago was about the bad debt.
8 A Actually, you had asked me about --
9 Q Oh, maybe I asked the same question and
10 didn't --
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. So if Mr. Beckmann was here, he would
13 say his question had been answered.
14 A I would hope so.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: You are correct. You are
16 channeling Mr. Beckmann.
17 Q (By Ms. Stump) Okay. And then the last
18 topic I wanted to discuss with you is one that
19 Ms. Myers said that you could help me with --
20 A Okay.
21 Q -- which has to do with -- I'm -- I'm
22 looking for information -- you know, Ms. Myers and I
23 had a discussion about the fact that this was a rate
24 and not a tax. And what I was trying to do was get an
25 explanation as to how the use of the ERUs corresponds
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1 to use of the district's facilities in the system.
2 A Okay. We, like many utilities that operate
3 this type of stormwater or implement this type of
4 stormwater fee, we utilize impervious surface area
5 basins as the basis for billing. That is probably the
6 fairest way in terms of measuring a customer's cost
7 contribution that needs to be recovered.
8 Obviously, the more runoff that is generated
9 from that property, the more it's going to cost us to
10 rectify any issues associated with that. So just
11 increased flooding, erosion, that type of issue, which
12 is what this rate is -- is going to be used for.
13 So from that perspective, again, I believe
14 that this is the fairest methodology for billing this
15 rate. It's based on impervious surface area because the
16 more impervious surface area that is on a particular
17 piece of property, the more likely the more runoff we're
18 going to get that we have to deal with.
19 Q So would you say that the stormwater capital
20 rate is based on the actual amount of services that
21 are provided?
22 A I certainly think there's a strong cost
23 correlation between the impervious surface area and
24 the cost that the district is going to bear to rectify
25 any issues associated with the runoff.
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1 MS. STUMP: Okay. I think I'm done, but let
2 me just check.
3 I think that's it.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
5 Questions from any of the rate commissioners?
6 Mr. Goss?
7 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
8 Q Just a couple of questions. Did you
9 participate in the analysis to come up with the
10 $562 million of costs for the project?
11 A I did not, no.
12 Q Okay. And just to follow up a little bit on
13 the fairness question in terms of cost-sharing. Do
14 you believe that someone's project -- you have an
15 overall timeframe for this rate, as I recall.
16 Somewhere -- or we've been told that the stormwater
17 projects and the problems will be taken care of in a
18 certain period of time --
19 A Correct.
20 Q -- correct? So if you have cost-sharing,
21 wouldn't that shorten that period of time?
22 A It could potentially shorten that period of
23 time.
24 Q And so if one of my projects was -- my
25 project was to be gotten to in the 20th year because
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1 I'm a low priority, and somebody else has cost-shared
2 so that my project is accelerated and I'm now dealt
3 with in the 15th year, wouldn't that be a benefit to
4 me?
5 A It may be a benefit to you. It may not be a
6 benefit to all of our customers. And the reason I say
7 that is, it depends on the severity of the problem
8 that we're trying to address. As Rich mentioned,
9 there's a prioritization process that we utilize. If
10 I'm a customer and I'm expecting that my project is
11 going to get completed within two years because any
12 time we get a small rain event, it's flooding my home
13 or perhaps my neighbors as well, but your problem
14 could just be one in which it rains, but there's water
15 that's in your yard. So we have to look at it from
16 that perspective. It depends on the severity of the
17 issue that we're trying to address.
18 Q But you would concede that there would be
19 more money available for MSD stormwater projects if
20 there were cost-sharing. Is that true?
21 A I think it -- yes. If we were to receive
22 funding from third parties, that could potentially
23 reduce our cost; right? I'd say it probably would
24 reduce our cost. It also depends on if there are any
25 restrictions associated with that money.
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1 Q Would you be able to or could you consider
2 calibrating a cost-sharing program so that programs
3 that you'd consider of a less high priority, you would
4 do a lower cost-share, whereas, if it were a higher
5 priority, you'd be willing to invest more?
6 A I think that's probably a discussion that we
7 would need to have with my colleagues here. It's
8 certainly not a decision that I would make, you know,
9 formally. It's something that we would have to
10 discuss and determine if that would indeed work.
11 Q Right. But just in terms of a policy, is
12 that something -- do you have an opinion as to whether
13 that would be a method that might adjust for this
14 perceived fairness issue that you're concerned with?
15 A I'm not sure it would. I would think we
16 would need, again, to look at the circumstances that
17 are involved and kind of look to see if there is a
18 policy could be drafted that would be beneficial.
19 Q Do you see a distinction between a
20 cost-sharing program that MSD could implement and say
21 what's done with MoDOT or St. Louis County or St.
22 Charles County with respect to their projects and
23 cost-sharing with other individuals and
24 municipalities?
25 A I'm not familiar with the cost-share
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1 programs that those entities that you mentioned have;
2 so without knowing the details behind if there are
3 restrictions, if they have to delay their projects in
4 order to align with whoever's giving them that
5 cost-share, it would be difficult to answer that
6 question. So I think there's a lot that goes into it.
7 In general, if we could obtain money from
8 third parties, that would allow us to reduce or costs.
9 I, again, in general, would view that as a good thing.
10 But I also think you have to -- you have to look at the
11 details that would involve the receipt of those funds.
12 Q What sort of details would you be concerned
13 about?
14 A Well, again, there could be restrictions on
15 how quickly you would have to spend that money, on
16 where you would use that money, on the particular
17 types of projects that would be willing to be funded.
18 They may want a project completed that, again, is not
19 really of highest priority for our customers. So we
20 would have to kind of look at that in totality.
21 Q I understand that concept in the context of
22 dealing with a governmental agency that's giving the
23 money and has higher authority. For example, the
24 Federal Government. They do that with projects. They
25 tell you you have to spend it in a certain period of
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1 time, you have to meet certain policy benchmarks.
2 In this case, though, it's MSD that would be
3 the higher authority because you're the one setting
4 the context and the requirements and the restrictions;
5 so you'd be setting the pace. So wouldn't that
6 address that problem?
7 A Well, not necessarily. I think you're
8 assuming that MSD would be able to control how these
9 entities want their money spent. If I'm writing a
10 check to you, I'm going to have some -- some criteria
11 in which I would like you to -- to utilize when you're
12 spending my money. So we would have to work, I think,
13 very closely with those entities that you mentioned.
14 Again, I'm not opposed certainly to cost-sharing. I
15 just think it's prudent to kind of understand what
16 you're getting yourself into when you do that. It's
17 not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but you have to
18 look at how that could potentially impact your
19 programs.
20 Q So do you have any opinion about other
21 agencies that have cost-sharing programs, as to
22 whether they're being unfair to their constituents?
23 A Again, I don't know the specifics of their
24 program. I would trust that it's something that they
25 would evaluate with their stakeholders.
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1 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Any further
3 questions for this witness?
4 Yes, Mr. Bresnan.
5 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRESNAN:
6 Q Marion, in the event that this goes through,
7 how fast will the implementation of construction
8 start?
9 A If we get the projects, that would begin in
10 FY20. I think we're scheduled to actually begin
11 billing in FY20. With regards to when construction
12 would actually occur, I would invite you to look in
13 the rate change proposal. We actually have a schedule
14 of projects listed in there, and it breaks it out by
15 constructions and acquisitions and such.
16 COMMISSIONER BRESNAN: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Further questions? I
18 just --
19 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Mr. Chairman --
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Mr. Palans, please,
21 go ahead.
22 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 TELEPHONIC QUESTIONS BY MR. PALANS:
25 Q Mr. Gee, I'd like to ask you to direct your
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1 attention to question 14 of your testimony, which is
2 on page 4 of MSD 3D.
3 A Yes, sir, I have that.
4 Q Question 14 asks the question, "Are
5 additional (incremental) expenses included in the
6 stormwater rate proposal related to the implementation
7 of the stormwater capital rate?" And your answer is,
8 "Yes, incremental expenses relating to the new
9 stormwater program are included in the stormwater rate
10 proposal," and you reference table 3-1 of the rate
11 proposal, which is MSD 1. Do you see table 3-1?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q It's on page 3 -- 3-3.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q You see that?
16 A I'm looking at it.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Mr. Palans.
18 Q (By Commissioner Palans) Okay. Would you
19 also turn to page 4-7 of the proposal, which is
20 table -- it has table 4-6, proposed stormwater capital
21 rate fund table. Do you see that?
22 A Yes, sir, I do.
23 Q It appears that table 3-1 and 4-6 are the
24 same. Is that -- am I correct?
25 A Yes, sir. The numbers appear to be the same
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1 to me.
2 Q And when I asked Mr. Unverferth questions
3 about table 4-6, it was in reference to his answer,
4 that an additional 40 full-time equivalent employees
5 are necessary to service and implement the stormwater
6 proposal and program. Do you recall that?
7 A Yes, sir, I do.
8 Q And in your table 3-1 that you referred to,
9 there is no identification of additional expenses
10 associated with engineering or operations, rather
11 there is a capital labor line item; correct?
12 A That is correct. There are capital labor
13 items listed.
14 Q Okay. So help me on this. Your -- you need
15 40 additional full-time employees to administer this
16 program, some of which are already on MSD staff and
17 are employed at MSD; correct?
18 A Yes, sir, that is what Mr. Unverferth
19 testified that he would need.
20 Q So those MSD employees that are currently on
21 site on staff are being paid by MSD; correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And when this program is implemented, a
24 certain number of those employees are no longer going
25 to be paid or expensed by MSD general operating funds
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1 today, but are going to be compensated out of the
2 proceeds of this rate proposal. Am I correct?
3 A Those employees that work on these projects
4 would be funded out of this proposed stormwater rate.
5 Q So they're going to -- they're not going to
6 be paid out of your general fund, they're going to be
7 paid out of the stormwater fund; correct?
8 A They're going to be paid out of the
9 stormwater fund. I don't think it's a fair assessment
10 that they're currently paid out of the general fund.
11 Q So they're no longer going to be paid out of
12 your general operating revenues, they're going to be
13 paid out of stormwater revenues that are created and
14 raised by this proposal; correct?
15 A We have -- we have employees now -- just --
16 I want to be clear on my answer -- that are working on
17 stormwater projects now, and they are paid out of the
18 appropriate stormwater fund. There are also employees
19 that work on wastewater projects that are paid out of
20 the appropriate wastewater fund.
21 Q And as we sit here today, you can't tell us
22 how many new additional full-time employees are going
23 to be hired to implement and fill this 40 full-time
24 employees pool; correct?
25 A No. I believe that Rich had testified that
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1 that determination would be made at a later date,
2 depending on what happens with our wastewater
3 projects.
4 Q And I'm not an accountant, but I would like
5 to ask you because you are, is it good, prudent
6 accounting practice to indicate that employees who are
7 working in engineering and administrative staff with
8 regard to a particular program be identified as
9 capital labor as opposed to being expensed in
10 operations?
11 A Actually, it's appropriate to do that. If
12 employees are working on a capital program, you should
13 charge them to that capital program because you're
14 going to -- basically, you're constructing an asset or
15 you're doing something that pertains to that
16 particular capital program. So it should be -- should
17 be charged there. It's totally appropriate to do
18 that.
19 Q Well, are your employees today who are
20 working on the wastewater program being charged to
21 capitalized accounts, capitalized labor, capitalized
22 administrative staff in the wastewater program?
23 A Yes. We do have employees that are charged
24 there. If we did not --
25 Q I'm sorry.
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1 A Go ahead. I'm sorry.
2 Q We've been talking about policy decisions,
3 and the policy decisions are then focused really upon
4 third-party funding sources and whether the district,
5 as a policy matter, would consider encouraging
6 third-party funding to remediate the stormwater
7 concerns that we have.
8 Generally, I think you agree with us that
9 third-party funding sources are a good thing. They --
10 they supplement the available resources that the
11 district has. Is that true?
12 A I would agree that they could be a good
13 thing. That is correct.
14 Q And, in fact, the district has developed its
15 analysis on prioritizing projects based upon a cost
16 benefit ratio; right?
17 A That's my understanding, yes.
18 Q And that I assume the district adopted that
19 because it believes it's fair; right?
20 A Yes, I believe that's the case.
21 Q And I would assume that it's fair, it's also
22 defensible?
23 A Yes, I would make that assumption as well.
24 Q Would you also agree that it's objective?
25 A Well, I am not familiar with the specifics
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1 that our engineering group uses to prioritize those
2 projects; so that's more of a question for probably
3 Rich than myself.
4 Q Well, I think he's already testified that
5 the cost benefit ratio has been prepared with a view
6 to being fair, defensible, objective, in order to rate
7 the priority in which projects would be completed.
8 That's my understanding. Is that yours?
9 A If that's what he testified, then that is
10 what he said.
11 Q Okay. I'm going to just -- I'm going to
12 kind of throw you a curve here and I don't want you to
13 answer, but I want to make just a statement on the
14 record.
15 Your materials of your consultants identify
16 a resource called a "User-Fee-Funded Stormwater
17 program, a periodic, a book. And I'm going to quote
18 to you a provision in that book. I recognize you do
19 not have it front of you, and I recognize that you may
20 not have ever read it, but I'm going to read it
21 nonetheless.
22 Quote, "When financing a stormwater program,
23 it is important to have a mix of funding sources to
24 reduce the cost of borrowing, to reduce the burden on
25 the ratepayer, and to ensure revenue stability."
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1 It goes on to say that incentives encourage
2 public-private partnerships. They focus on an
3 integrated solution to stormwater management.
4 Mr. Gee, there is a provision in the consent
5 decree on page 3 that says, "While MSD relies
6 primarily on user fees, it plans to pursue a
7 combination of additional available funding programs,
8 including but not limited to, state assistance,
9 federal assistance, bonding, and any other public and
10 private financing to assist in implementation of such
11 improvements."
12 That's something that you have already
13 agreed upon in that consent decree; correct?
14 A Yes. That relates to wastewater and we have
15 agreed to that.
16 Q And I am encouraging MSD, its staff, and its
17 officers to revisit that issue in order to create a
18 vehicle whereby additional funding sources from third
19 parties can be used consistent with existing MSD
20 protocol on cost benefit ratio to implement the
21 stormwater program and allow this program to complete
22 more projects, complete projects faster, and to
23 conserve resources for the district.
24 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you.
25 Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans.
2 Appreciate that.
3 Any other questions from any of the other
4 rate commissioners?
5 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
6 Q I have one very small question.
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Looking at the 40,000 people who are less
9 than the 20 equivalent units there, and even if I'm
10 billed quarterly at $6.75 a quarter, I kind of -- I
11 don't know what it costs you to generate a bill, mail
12 a bill, process a bill, do all the banking, do
13 everything else that's affiliated with that, and I
14 even question if quarterly is a big enough spread to
15 collect, plus the $7.
16 A That is certainly something that we looked
17 at when we were proposing in terms of the frequency
18 that we billed. Typically, billing and payment, as
19 well as we factored that in, varies depending on the
20 types of payments that we get in. For instance, if
21 somebody pays via check versus us having the ability
22 to electronically withdraw that money from their
23 account, obviously paying by check is more expensive.
24 So to answer your question, that is certainly
25 something we would look at in the future, see if we can
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1 tweak that. But we've kind of felt like that on, at
2 least a quarterly basis, we should be billing customers
3 because when you try to bill semi-annually or annually,
4 we could run into some issues with that, in terms of
5 being able to collect that debt.
6 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Any other
7 questions?
8 Thank you, sir.
9 MR. GEE: Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Myers, do you have any
11 questions for the witness?
12 MS. MYERS: I do not.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Being the last district
14 employee witness, am I correct, we are moving to the
15 consultants next?
16 MS. MYERS: That is correct.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I'm going to suggest a
18 15-minute break and we will resume at 2:20 with the --
19 with Mr. Beckley and Ms. Locklear, all right?
20 MS. MYERS: Very good. Thank you.
21 (Whereupon, a brief break was taken.)
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: All right. We will
23 reconvene. And, Ms. Stump, if you could let the rate
24 commissioners know about your next steps.
25 MS. STUMP: Yes. We will be submitting an
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1 additional discovery request to the district based on
2 some additional information that either you-all or we
3 have indicated that we would like from the district.
4 Given the tight time crunch, we would like to submit it
5 on Monday. So if you all -- any commissioner has
6 additional questions that they still feel are out there
7 for the district, we'll be happy to submit those in
8 written discovery, if you get those to me before Monday
9 morning. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump.
11 Ms. Myers, are you ready to call your next
12 witness? It appears you are.
13 MS. MYERS: Yes, sir. It's Tom Beckley.
14 (The witness was duly sworn.)
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Neuschafer, do you
16 have any questions for this witness?
17 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
18 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
19 Q Just have a few questions. First, do you
20 have your testimony in front of you?
21 A I do.
22 Q And I noticed as I was reading through the
23 testimony that there are some omitted question
24 numbers. The ones that I noticed were 7, 17, and 18
25 --
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1 A That was --
2 Q -- 21, 22, and 23.
3 A That's an error on my part. I apologize.
4 Q Okay. I just wanted to make sure that what
5 was submitted in the packet and on the website is your
6 complete testimony?
7 A It is my complete testimony.
8 Q Okay. Great. Thank you.
9 If you look at question no. 15, this is near
10 the end of your discussion of the criteria that are
11 considered. You provide definitions of the terms fair
12 and reasonable, and I would like to understand the
13 source for these definitions.
14 A This is just my -- kind of my -- my
15 interpretation of it based on 17-and-a-half years of
16 providing rate setting services to municipal utilities
17 where fair and reasonable is pretty much the standard
18 burden or, you know, the setting rates for municipal
19 utilities.
20 Q Does this --
21 A It wasn't from a book or anything per se.
22 It's, you know, in reviewing it, and this was kind of
23 the definition that, you know, I developed in
24 17-and-a-half years of doing this.
25 Q Is it based on any sort of case law
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1 particularly in the State of Missouri?
2 A Certainly that has impacted that and it's --
3 you know, I work in a lot of different states besides
4 Missouri. And Michigan, for example, has a very
5 similar rule to Missouri. But it's over -- over those
6 years, I've reviewed a lot of case law related to
7 utility rate setting and then just other kind of
8 references when it comes to utility rate setting. And
9 this is -- you know, I didn't take this from a book or
10 any -- I didn't take this from a book. It was kind of
11 my definition of what fair and reasonable means.
12 Q Okay. Thank you. Then on question 16.
13 Now, the question is, "Do you believe the rate
14 proposal meets these criteria?" And your answer is,
15 "Yes."
16 I want to understand, is this with respect
17 to the fair and reasonable criterion or is it with
18 respect to all five of the criteria?
19 A It's with respect to all five. Of course,
20 to the previous four, I have -- to some extent, I have
21 to trust the other experts that -- you know, whose --
22 whose testimony has come before me in addressing some
23 of these. But based on, you know, my judgment and the
24 information they've provided to me throughout this --
25 the process of developing this proposal and then
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1 presented in this proposal, it is.
2 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Okay. That's all I've got.
3 Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
5 Ms. Stump, do you have questions for this
6 witness?
7 MS. STUMP: We're going to shake it up a
8 little bit and Mr. Malone is going to ask some
9 questions.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Malone.
11 QUESTIONS BY MR. MALONE:
12 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Beckley. Do you have
13 your testimony in front of you?
14 A I do. I still do.
15 Q Great. In your capacity as rate consultant
16 to the district, you assisted the district in
17 formulating the financial plan that's table 3-1 of the
18 rate proposal; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Can you tell the commission how the level of
21 revenue required per year, which is roughly
22 30 million, how that was determined?
23 A We worked with district staff --
24 (Reporter clarification.)
25 MR. MAHFOOD: Mr. Chairman, restate the
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1 question.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yeah, please restate the
3 question.
4 Q (By Mr. Malone) Sure. In your capacity as
5 rate consultant to the district, you assisted the
6 district in formulating the financial plan, which
7 appears at table 3-1 of the rate proposal; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And can you tell the commission how the
11 level of required revenue per fiscal year, which is
12 roughly $30 million, how that figure was determined?
13 A We worked with district staff to identify
14 what was a -- you know, based on the total capital
15 program and then the willingness, you know, based
16 on -- I believe, Marion and Mr. Hoelscher discussed
17 kind of there was some factor of discussion of
18 willingness to pay what we felt would be a reasonable
19 level of annual revenue requirements that could be
20 recovered to address the flooding and erosion control
21 issues within the district.
22 Q Okay. And with regard to question 19 in
23 your direct testimony, you state that impervious area
24 is generally-accepted to be a fair and reasonable
25 approach to recovering stormwater-related cost because
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1 impervious area directly impacts the amount of
2 stormwater runoff a customer will generate?
3 A Right.
4 Q So do you believe that the -- that the
5 stormwater capital rate based on impervious surface
6 reflects how much a particular ratepayer will use or
7 require the district services facilities?
8 A It's -- I believe it's the best estimate of
9 their impact on cost causation within the district.
10 Q Okay. So stated differently, would you say
11 it's -- the amount of impervious area would -- and the
12 rate being charged for that impervious area is
13 proportional to the district's needs for capital
14 improvements?
15 A It's not proportional to the district's need
16 for capital improvements. It's our best estimate of
17 their proportionate share of the cost that the
18 district is going to incur.
19 Q I see. Okay.
20 A I want to be careful because, you know, the
21 amount of impervious area doesn't directly impact the
22 size of the program. We're just saying given the size
23 of the program we believe the district needs,
24 that's -- that's the best estimate of each individual
25 customer's proportionate share of that program.
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1 Q I see. And have you used the fair and
2 reasonable criteria that you described a few moments
3 ago as you defined it in previous rate commission
4 proceedings?
5 A To -- you're saying is it fair and
6 reasonable to use impervious area, I believe?
7 Q Yes. Well, and I -- well, that's one
8 question, yes.
9 A Okay. I just want to make sure I -- yeah.
10 Q Sure.
11 A I believe that's the most fair and
12 reasonable way to recover these costs is through
13 impervious area.
14 Q Okay. And you had a discussion earlier with
15 counsel for MIEC regarding the definition of -- as to
16 fair and reasonable. Are those definitions you've
17 used in prior proceedings?
18 A This is my first time testifying in these
19 proceedings. I've been involved in the proceedings in
20 2007, 2008, 2011, and 2015. But that's certainly
21 similar to definitions that our firm has used in those
22 proceedings as well.
23 Q I see. And regarding question 20 in your
24 testimony, you indicated that you worked with the
25 district to determine the amount of impervious area
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1 that would be charged to stormwater capital rate to
2 determine billable units; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And then the revenue requirements for each
5 year were divided by the billable units to arrive at
6 the proposed rate?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Okay. Was vacant residential property, that
9 is, property that's been improved with impervious
10 area, but that's not occupied, is that included within
11 the amount of total impervious area?
12 A It is. Those would be those customers that
13 talked about that are stormwater only accounts.
14 Q Okay. So they may not see -- currently be
15 receiving a wastewater bill, but they would receive a
16 stormwater bill?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Okay. And then was unimproved property with
19 insignificant or no impervious area, but that's
20 otherwise on the tax rolls, would that be included
21 within that?
22 A I believe -- off the top of my head, I
23 believe the cutoff is 200 feet of impervious area. If
24 you have more than 200 square feet of impervious area,
25 then you're going to get charged at least one area of
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1 --
2 Q Okay. I see.
3 A But if you have -- just happen to have a
4 concrete pad that's 10 by 10, you won't get charged
5 because you have 100 square feet of impervious area,
6 then you would not fall within that. You would be
7 underneath that cutoff of 200 square feet.
8 Q I see. And you stated in your direct
9 testimony that there is no projected reserve
10 requirement in the fund; is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And is that a common practice within the
13 industry for an impervious area fee?
14 A No. But that's because this is, unlike most
15 other impervious area fees, it's only being used to
16 pay for capital projects and, in part, because of the
17 way MSD allocates funds to capital projects.
18 Basically, they cannot approve a capital project until
19 the cash is actually in the fund. And then when
20 they -- when there's enough cash in the fund, they
21 approve the capital project and then that cash becomes
22 obligated and it's removed from that fund.
23 So even if the balance in this fund were to
24 reach exactly zero, the reality is there's -- there's
25 most likely a lot of dollars sitting there that had been
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1 obligated to projects, but not yet spent on those
2 projects.
3 Q I see. So in the event that the district
4 encountered unanticipated cost increase in a project
5 that's ongoing, can you explain how the district would
6 account for those costs?
7 A Well, they would have to -- I believe off
8 the top of my head -- and Marion would be able to
9 answer this -- but I believe they would have to ask
10 for an increase in the obligation and there would have
11 to be cash sitting there to do that. On average,
12 they -- we actually over-allocate because that's part
13 of the liquidations that's discussed in one of the
14 appendices. On average, we liquidate a portion of the
15 funds at the end of a project, in that, on average, we
16 over-allocate to projects.
17 Q I see.
18 A And that's, in part, because contingencies
19 are included in those projects to help cover that to
20 begin with.
21 Q I see. And I want to ask you briefly about
22 the credits and the incentives for residential and
23 commercial customers. Has the -- has the reduction in
24 revenue from these credits been factored into the
25 district's financial plan?
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1 A It has.
2 Q And how is that reduction in cost of revenue
3 computed?
4 A It's that -- it's the appendices that
5 Mr. Gee or -- there was that -- it's been referred to
6 today before, and I don't know the number off the top
7 of my head, but basically there was a calculation of
8 each credit and how -- how -- the anticipated
9 participation of each credit and the impact, and I
10 believe it was $467,000, and there is a breakdown of
11 that in one of the exhibits.
12 MR. MALONE: Okay. All right. I believe
13 that's all the questions I have. Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Malone.
15 Questions from any of the rate
16 commissioners?
17 Yes, Tom Ratzki.
18 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER RATZKI:
19 Q Does your financial model predict any
20 increase or decrease in revenue from the Prop S tax in
21 the future?
22 A It does. We have projection of increase and
23 there's a projected increase in assessed value --
24 excuse me -- over time, based on historical --
25 basically, we looked at a historical period in the
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1 past, and this is off the top of my head, but I
2 believe it's .86 percent is the increase in taxable
3 value over time in the recent past. And we apply that
4 to the Prop S fund, which is shown in the rate
5 proposal as table 4- -- 4-4; so that's where you see
6 the Prop S funding is in table 4-4.
7 Q Okay. Does it take into account any
8 delinquencies or people going out of business or
9 people --
10 A Those --
11 Q I don't know exactly how the tax laws work.
12 If you move from your house or you foreclose and don't
13 collect property tax on those, is that --
14 A Those revenues are based on a historical
15 experience in collection rates.
16 Q That leads to my next question. So when you
17 put together -- I wasn't on the rate commission the
18 previous time this homeowner rate came through -- you
19 had some estimates of what the Prop S tax was going to
20 generate revenue wise. How well have those
21 predictions played out? Are they higher or lower?
22 A I'm not sure off the top of my head, but we
23 could pull that together.
24 COMMISSIONER RATZKI: That's all the
25 questions I have.
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Ratzki.
2 Other questions? Mr. Mahfood.
3 QUESTIONS BY MR. MAHFOOD:
4 Q Yeah, I want to follow up -- I want to
5 follow up the previous question a little bit different
6 angle.
7 Has there been anything factored into the --
8 into this formula that looks at a reduction in the
9 future in impervious surface?
10 A We looked at historical changes in
11 impervious surface and that's what we expect to
12 continue, is impervious surface will increase at a --
13 at the same rate as historically increased.
14 Q Okay.
15 A And I believe that's approximately
16 .75 percent.
17 Q And in any of the other areas that you've
18 worked in, is that considered a fairly common
19 approach, to use historical to look at impervious
20 surface as opposed to . . .
21 A I would say for basically all of our
22 forecasting, that's typically what we look at is --
23 is -- is what's happened historically in a given area
24 because we don't like to say -- we don't like to look
25 at other cities to try to determine what's going to
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1 happen here in St. Louis. We think the best estimate
2 of what's going to happen here in St. Louis is what's
3 historically happened here in St. Louis.
4 Q Let me ask you, have you seen any programs,
5 in the scope of the work that you've done over all
6 these years, that have worked in this whole arena of
7 reducing impervious surface and voluntarily doing it
8 through incentives on an ongoing basis, where at least
9 you might be able to hold the line on increases?
10 A I am not aware of any. I would -- I would
11 suggest you ask Henrietta Locklear, who's going to
12 follow me, the same question.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I suppose, just to give you a little bit of
15 background just so you understand, you know, as I
16 said, I've worked for the district -- well, actually,
17 I used to be a consultant to the rate commission in
18 2007, 2008, 2011. And then 2015, we were hired as
19 consultant to the district. And so I have a lot of
20 experience in developing financial plans and
21 everything else.
22 And the reason we have Henrietta Locklear on
23 this proposal is because she has more experience than me
24 specifically in stormwater; so she can probably answer
25 that question better than I can.
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1 I mean, what I see is it's a challenge to get
2 impervious surface down because, I mean, you build a lot
3 of shopping centers, they build these huge parking lots,
4 and it's really -- an urban sprawl really contributes to
5 it. And there's been some focus on more low impact
6 development, but it certainly -- it hasn't really
7 impacted that growth of impervious area usually.
8 MR. MAHFOOD: Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions for
10 Mr. Beckley?
11 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
12 Q I'll ask you a question, Mr. Beckley.
13 You've worked with, in your testimony here, over 100
14 clients. In those 100 clients, have you come across
15 any public-private partnerships?
16 A I've certainly dealt with a few
17 public-private partnerships, not when it comes
18 specifically to stormwater.
19 Q Okay. How would you make any connection
20 between those clients and this particular proposal or
21 would you make any?
22 A So typically when we talk about
23 public-private partnerships in the municipal utility
24 industry, it's with projects that have a revenue
25 source or have an expense for the utility. For
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1 instance, you'll do a public-private partnership on a
2 new treatment plant that you know you need and so you
3 can do a P3 approach where you do design, build,
4 operate, or something like that. I've worked projects
5 like that in Phoenix and Wichita and New Orleans, we
6 looked at those options. Some of them resulted in
7 projects, others decided not to move forward with them
8 after some amount of analysis.
9 Or there's where you have operations that you
10 have ongoing and you say, "Well, we can contract this
11 out to a private operator and they can do it better and
12 faster than we can."
13 So those are typically what we see when we
14 look at municipal utilities and public-private
15 partnerships. It is less common in stormwater than in
16 water -- wastewater.
17 Q Thank you. In those clients then, have you
18 ever seen anything like the evaluation chart that
19 Mr. Unverferth presented previously?
20 A I have not, but I would suggest you ask
21 Henrietta this -- that question as well because she
22 has more experience on the stormwater side than I do.
23 Q I will do so.
24 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions?
25 Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
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1 Ms. Myers, do you have any questions for
2 this witness?
3 MS. MYERS: I do not.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Ready to call
5 your next witness?
6 MS. MYERS: Yes, Henrietta Locklear.
7 (The witness was duly sworn.)
8 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Neuschafer, do you
9 have any questions for this witness?
10 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please.
12 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
13 Q Good afternoon. I would like to start by
14 looking at your testimony. Do you have your testimony
15 in front of you?
16 A I do.
17 Q Question no. 6. The question is, "What is
18 the basis of the stormwater rate contained in the rate
19 proposal?" And your answer includes the statement,
20 "Impervious area is generally accepted to be a fair
21 and reasonable approach to recovering the stormwater
22 related costs." And then provides an explanation.
23 When you say it is generally accepted to be
24 a fair and reasonable approach, upon what is that
25 based?
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1 A Over time through the setup of lots of
2 different utilities, this concept of impervious areas
3 has been tested. And so it's based on my knowledge
4 and experience of testing in the -- in the legal arena
5 and, you know, public sentiment.
6 Q I'd like to get into that just a little
7 more, tested in the legal arena. Okay. You indicated
8 that it's been tested in both the legal arena and in
9 public opinion, is that what you said?
10 A Mm-hmm.
11 Q So are you aware of courts that have
12 addressed the definition of what constitutes a fair
13 and reasonable approach to recovering
14 stormwater-related costs?
15 A There -- there are cases that indicate that.
16 I couldn't cite them for you just off the top of my
17 head today.
18 Q Okay. Do other stormwater utilities apply a
19 similar concept here? I guess, among other criteria
20 perhaps, the rate has to be fair and reasonable?
21 A Yes.
22 Q I'd like to look at question 7.
23 A Sorry. Go ahead.
24 Q Yeah. Question 7, you talk about impervious
25 areas being commonly used. And you reference a 2016
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1 survey of stormwater and utilities?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And if I am correct, this 2016 survey is
4 contained in Exhibit MSD 19?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q That's correct. Okay. Now, you say that a
7 vast majority of stormwater utilities employ a rate
8 based upon impervious area (77 percent). That's
9 right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. If we look at page 4 of Exhibit MSD
12 19, I believe it states that a total of 74
13 participants from 24 states completed the online
14 questionnaire; is that correct?
15 A One second.
16 Q Page 4.
17 A Yes, in this particular survey.
18 Q In this particular survey. So your
19 statement that the vast majority, 77 percent, is of
20 the 74 participants who participated in this study?
21 A Yeah, that number is based on the survey.
22 Q Okay. And if I read the results of this
23 study correctly, this is essentially -- these 74
24 participants are stormwater utilities who, I guess,
25 self-selected because they decided to respond to the
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1 online survey?
2 A I would probably have to defer to the -- to
3 the survey administrators for that particular answer.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I will add on to your line of questioning
6 there that the 77 percent is a specific percentage
7 from this survey, which I think is defensible. It's
8 also true from my experience that the very vast
9 majority of stormwater utilities I've worked with, for
10 example, use this methodology; so it's not the only
11 data point.
12 Q Okay. You said of the utilities that you
13 work with. How many utilities have you worked with?
14 A I've led the development of 15 stormwater
15 utilities. I've been involved in many more than that,
16 probably more than 30.
17 Q Okay.
18 A And I've also worked with a number of others
19 who are established and use that methodology or have
20 modified their rate structures to this methodology.
21 Q Okay. Included in MSD's materials at MSD
22 30 -- Exhibit MSD 30I, I believe it is.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is a stormwater utility survey from Western
25 Kentucky University dated 2017. Are you familiar with
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1 this study?
2 A Yes.
3 Q If you look at page 1 of this report --
4 A I'll have to look at your copy.
5 Q That's fine. That's absolutely fine.
6 A Thank you.
7 Q Right here on page 1, it indicates that
8 their survey identified 1,639 stormwater utilities,
9 and the author estimated that there are between 1,800
10 and 2,000 stormwater utilities in the United States;
11 is that correct?
12 A That's what the page 1 says, yes.
13 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Okay. That is all that I
14 have right now.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
17 Ms. Stump or Mr. Malone?
18 QUESTIONS BY MR. MALONE:
19 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Locklear.
20 A Good afternoon.
21 Q I want to ask you briefly about your
22 testimony a few moments ago about court decisions
23 regarding impervious areas of fair and reasonable
24 means to determine stormwater rates. I know you don't
25 have case citations, but are you aware, are any of
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1 those Missouri decisions?
2 A Not the ones I have in my mind.
3 Q Okay.
4 A But I would defer to the attorney on that.
5 Q Okay. There may be a Missouri decision out
6 there?
7 A There very well could be.
8 Q Okay. I also want to talk to you about the
9 credit incentive programs. In your direct testimony,
10 you indicated that MSD's proposed incentive programs
11 are within industry norms, and I think we've heard
12 testimony about rain gardens and cisterns. Can you
13 describe any other features that MSD is proposing in
14 the rate change proposal for which a credit would be
15 available?
16 A Yes. The -- the details, or at least an
17 overview of those incentives, is given in section 4.4
18 of the proposal; so I think that's a good reference
19 for that. Or do you have a specific question?
20 Q Okay. Well, I was going to ask you how
21 common these features are used in the other utilities
22 that charge a fee for impervious area?
23 A Oh, okay. It's pretty common to have a
24 credit and incentive program. In my experience, you
25 know, over half of utilities I've worked with have
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1 such programs. And rain gardens and cisterns would be
2 a fairly common practice for which credit is
3 available.
4 Q Okay. And is there, I guess, industry
5 standard related to the size of a particular credit
6 for, for instance, a rain garden or a cistern?
7 A Utilities do tend to set a minimum
8 requirement for those things. I wouldn't say that
9 there's, you know, a widespread specific number for
10 those. It tends to be based more upon the specific
11 minimum criteria that they might have already have in
12 place related to development requirements.
13 Q Okay. And I believe there was some
14 questions earlier today about whether there would be
15 incentives available for homeowners associations or
16 subdivision trustees that are responsible for
17 maintaining impervious area. To your knowledge, with
18 regard to other stormwater utilities that assess an
19 impervious area fee, are there incentives available
20 for homeowners associations or subdivision trustees?
21 A I only know of one other program where that
22 particular configuration of credit is available. That
23 is where the -- where there's a homeowner association
24 maintained structure and the credit is given out to
25 the individual residential homeowner lots.
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1 The more common configuration of that credit
2 would be one that I think Rich referred to -- Mr.
3 Unverferth referred to in his testimony, where there is
4 a credit available to the specific property upon which
5 the detention basin or other structure is contained.
6 So, for example, if there were a property that
7 had some commonly-owned impervious area on it and that
8 drained to a specific structure -- stormwater structure,
9 the impervious area on that property could be, you know,
10 eligible for a credit.
11 Q I see. And do you know where the program
12 you referred to is?
13 A It's the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer
14 District in Ohio.
15 Q All right. I'd like to talk to you a little
16 bit about how the ERU rate was determined.
17 Mr. Beckley testified earlier that the partials with
18 no or insignificant impervious area are excluded, and
19 the properties that are vacant, that is not occupied
20 but containing impervious area are included. Is that
21 common with regard to other stormwater utilities who
22 include vacant properties that aren't currently
23 occupied?
24 A Yes, that's common.
25 Q Okay. And is it common to exclude
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1 properties with little or no impervious area?
2 A That is also common.
3 Q Okay. And in the jurisdictions that -- are
4 there a lot of jurisdictions that use an ERU as a
5 basis for stormwater billing?
6 A That is also very common.
7 Q Okay. And in those jurisdictions, is it
8 commonly used as a flat rate or something that would
9 vary based on rainfall per given month or per given
10 period?
11 A I'm not aware of a rate that varies based on
12 rainfall for a period.
13 Q Okay. Are all the ERU -- are the
14 jurisdictions that you're aware of that use an ERU all
15 a flat rate?
16 A So just to be clear, typically the E -- you
17 know, the ERU is a unit of charge.
18 Q Right.
19 A Typically, there's one unit of -- I mean,
20 there's one rate for that particular unit. However,
21 as in the district's proposal, at times, for a
22 residential rate structure, there may be tiers so
23 that, you know, there are portions that are charged to
24 certain customers, you know, smaller residential
25 customers, for example. Rarely. There are -- there
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1 are other configurations of that, but it's -- I mean,
2 it's most common for there to be one flat rate per
3 ERU.
4 Q Okay. And public roads and rights-of-ways
5 are excluded from the total amount of ERUs; is that
6 correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And that would -- would private roads that
9 would be maintained by a subdivision or homeowners
10 association, would those also be considered within the
11 total ERUs in the district's service area?
12 A I believe that in this proposal, those
13 private roads have not be included.
14 Q Okay. And do you know why or why not? Why
15 they were included or why not?
16 A Not specifically, no.
17 Q Okay. Under the rate change proposal, how
18 are condominium units treated? Are those considered
19 non-residential or commercial property?
20 A I may have to get back to you on that one.
21 Q Okay.
22 A Just to make sure I'm accurately reflecting.
23 Q I appreciate that.
24 A Yeah.
25 Q And of the other jurisdictions you're aware
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1 of that utilize that impervious area fee, are you
2 aware of any that utilize a cost-sharing program or a
3 third-party or public-private partnership would be
4 used to defray some of the cost to the stormwater
5 utility?
6 A Are you talking specifically about, for
7 example, contributions by municipalities within, you
8 know, a district like this or contributions from
9 customers or other sorts of --
10 Q I suppose either. I mean, whichever -- I'm
11 interested in what the most common approach is for the
12 utility itself to bear the cost or for prioritization
13 to be made based on contributions from either
14 municipality or from a customer.
15 A So I would echo what Mr. Beckley said, that
16 I don't think public-private partnerships are
17 particularly common within the utilities that I know
18 of. I do know of a few cases where there are
19 cost-share arrangements for different reasons.
20 So one example would be, again, the Northeast
21 Ohio Regional Sewer District where municipalities
22 actually gain a share of the revenues from the district
23 and that was in alignment with some complex litigation
24 and agreements that those folks worked out. I also know
25 of maybe -- well, I know for sure of one utility that
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1 provides for customers to contribute, you know, to -- to
2 a portion of rain garden installation on their own
3 properties and then another where there are other
4 cost-share arrangements for water quality projects on
5 customers' own properties. Those are the two examples,
6 I think, that are most applicable.
7 MR. MALONE: Okay. All right. I think
8 that's all the questions I have.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
10 Rate commissioners, questions for the
11 witness?
12 Mr. Goss and then Mr. Mahfood.
13 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Let Mr. Mahfood go first.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Mahfood, you are up
15 first.
16 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD:
17 Q Good afternoon. Just -- I'm going to go
18 back to after -- after talking to Mr. Beckley. You
19 probably heard that conversation. I'm very interested
20 in the credit incentive program and your experience
21 and maybe start with the first question, having to do
22 with how potential for reducing impervious surface
23 might have made its way into, or not, into the
24 proposed rate plan and your experience with that.
25 A And if I understand your question correctly,
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1 it's that essentially that the total of impervious
2 area for the whole -- or the whole utility would
3 decrease over time, going to impervious area removal?
4 Q Yes. If we were all doing the -- I guess in
5 the perfect world and developers and homeowners
6 decided to do the right thing, maybe because it hit
7 their pocketbook, maybe they saw something in the
8 future that they could reduce the cost to themselves,
9 that they might start doing the right thing and
10 constructing developments and parking lots and things
11 like this. So I don't know if that's happened, if
12 you've seen that in any of your work, if that's
13 happened or if there's anything that could incentivize
14 that to happen more quickly than . . .
15 A I -- well, to -- I'll answer the question I
16 thought you were asking first --
17 Q Okay. Please.
18 A -- which is do I know of any utilities that
19 have actually experienced a decrease in impervious
20 area over time. The -- I know I keep on pulling
21 Northeast Ohio out of my hat.
22 Q I'm familiar with them also. Yes. That's
23 all right.
24 A So as you know, there's been a lot of --
25 there's been a lot of blight removal there from vacant
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1 properties, and so I do know that when they're
2 updating their impervious area from year to year, they
3 will often take properties off the roster because
4 vacant properties have been torn down. That is also
5 happening in Baltimore where there's a blight removal
6 program from vacant -- and by vacant, I mean
7 unoccupied houses.
8 Q Yeah. Yeah.
9 A However, even in Cleveland and in Baltimore,
10 there is an overall increase in impervious area over
11 time because development is happening there. However,
12 both of those programs and some other ones have
13 programs to -- to, I guess, have developers put in
14 less effective impervious area, meaning that the
15 impervious area is disconnected from the stormwater
16 system, and so there these kind of practices, I think,
17 that you're thinking about where impervious area
18 drains to green places and some of the volume is
19 reduced over time.
20 And in Baltimore, specifically, and I could
21 probably cite a few other places, you know, there's a
22 provision for the removal of impervious area from your
23 bill, owing to the fact that it's, you know, pervious
24 concrete or a green roof or that kind of thing. So
25 those kind of mechanisms do exist, and I don't know that
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1 they outweigh the pace of development, but they would
2 affect specific customers' bills over time.
3 Q You may or may not know this. Do you know
4 if the -- if the rate proposal that we're looking at
5 today includes some methodology or some method of
6 removing impervious surface or an appeal or something
7 to that effect?
8 A Yes. I believe -- oh, yeah. If you look on
9 page 4-8 --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- under 4.4.3.1, "Constructed stormwater
12 BMPs that are designed to be pervious will be 100
13 percent excluded from the billable area."
14 Q Okay.
15 A And examples include green roof and pervious
16 pavement.
17 Q Okay. All right. Thank you. Good.
18 Just one other -- one other question. I
19 noticed in your responses in your testimony that you
20 noted that the MSD's proposed credit and incentive
21 program is within industry norms. Sorry. This is
22 under question 8.
23 A Right.
24 Q And -- but as you referred to it earlier on,
25 you said most utilities offer credits as part of their
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1 rate system and these are ongoing reductions to
2 customers' rates that recognize their reduced demand
3 for stormwater service.
4 Do you -- have you seen where -- what the
5 differences may be with a one-time, upfront payment
6 versus an ongoing reduction due to doing the right
7 thing? What's your experience with that?
8 A Well, I would say that the places where I've
9 seen upfront incentives are for things like rain
10 barrels, which maybe are not as effective over time as
11 what is proposed by the district here. Fairly
12 minimal, I guess I would say, in comparison. And then
13 in response to an earlier question, one of the
14 programs I was thinking of is a jurisdiction in
15 Minnesota, which I can't think of the name of right
16 off the top of my head, that has a -- kind of almost
17 like a cost-share program for installing rain gardens
18 on residential properties. And I believe that that
19 program has had a lot of success with the installation
20 of those things.
21 I think the reasons that Mr. Unverferth gave
22 for doing an upfront incentive for residential
23 properties, in this particular case, are fairly
24 compelling. And so although I haven't seen that
25 particular thing used in, you know, tons of programs,
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1 you know, there's a very wide variety of how credit
2 incentive programs are put together, based on individual
3 needs of utilities, and kind of what fits their
4 circumstances and their customer base.
5 And so, you know, it seems like a good
6 approach for this limited incentive, in this case, in my
7 opinion.
8 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: Okay. Thank you very
9 much.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Mahfood.
11 Mr. Goss?
12 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
13 Q You mentioned a couple of different programs
14 that you were familiar with that provide credits.
15 Would you be able to provide us with copies of those
16 programs, those credit programs?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So, for example, Northeast Ohio, you
19 mentioned that one?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q You mentioned the program in Minnesota --
22 A Yeah.
23 Q -- that you said was very successful?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q And then you also mentioned there was -- you
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1 didn't identify the districts, but you mentioned a
2 rain garden cost-sharing program and other water
3 quality cost-sharing program. And you didn't -- you
4 did not identify those two districts. Do you recall
5 those districts?
6 A Yep. So the rain garden program is in
7 Minnesota.
8 Q Okay.
9 A And probably out of nervousness, it's
10 escaping my memory at the moment, the name of it. But
11 the cost-sharing program for water quality is City of
12 Raleigh, North Carolina, and I think we can provide
13 the information about those three programs to you.
14 Q And then Baltimore -- it sounded like
15 Baltimore and Cleveland might have some kind of
16 cost-sharing program as well or did I misunderstand
17 that?
18 A I think I was specifically talking about
19 impervious area removal in those two cases.
20 Q Okay. So it wasn't a cost-sharing, it was
21 addressing that question?
22 A Yeah. Baltimore also has a credit program,
23 and I could provide the manual for that one, if you're
24 interested.
25 Q Yeah, very much so. Thank you.
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1 Now, are you familiar with trust indentures?
2 Does that mean anything to you?
3 A Is this associated with homeowners
4 association?
5 Q It's kind of like Provel cheese on a pizza,
6 it's a St. Louis thing. So you might -- you might
7 think of them as declarations of covenants or
8 restrictions in homeowners associations. Are you
9 familiar with those, homeowners associations?
10 A I'm familiar with homeowners associations.
11 Q Okay. Yeah, that's -- figured you'd
12 probably be familiar with that.
13 A Now we're on the same page.
14 Q Okay. So essentially they work the same
15 way. It's different -- slightly different legal
16 structure, but you've got an association that's taking
17 care of the common infrastructure of the subdivision.
18 So you mentioned, I think, it was Northeast
19 Ohio, they have a program that assists homeowners
20 associations; is that right?
21 A It's -- what I was talking about earlier was
22 a credit that's available --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- to homeowners associations.
25 Q Now, in that district, does the district
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1 maintain the stormwater detention basins or does the
2 homeowners association maintain them?
3 A I'll send you the document that describes
4 the credit that's available, and in that document, the
5 example that's given, the homeowners association is
6 maintaining the structure in that particular case.
7 Q Do you know if it's typical for a homeowners
8 association to maintain detention basins as opposed to
9 the district?
10 A In the district?
11 Q Yeah. As opposed to the sewer district.
12 A I couldn't say whether one is more typical
13 than the other.
14 Q And in this region, it would be more typical
15 for the homeowners associations, although there are
16 some cities that are now doing that, for example, the
17 City of St. Peters is taking over those, but I
18 wondered if that had any influence on those credit
19 programs being available or not. That was the reason
20 I was asking the question.
21 A Oh, I see. I don't know why they made that
22 available.
23 Q And have you ever seen the MSD maintenance
24 agreement --
25 A No.
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1 Q -- for BMPs? In your experience, is it
2 typical to have a maintenance agreement for BMPs that
3 are installed?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And those typically would go on in
6 perpetuity?
7 A Ideally, they would.
8 Q Okay. And -- and what -- and would the
9 agreement -- the agreement would provide for that, you
10 mean but the homeowner might not keep up with it, is
11 that what you mean by ideally?
12 A Well, ideally, there is some sort of
13 provision that -- you know, a structure would be
14 maintained in perpetuity so that it can maintain its
15 effectiveness.
16 Q Are you familiar with the district's CSO
17 rainscaping program?
18 A I'm somewhat familiar with it.
19 Q So you're aware that, according to the
20 district's appendix, over several years, they've had
21 200 customers that have installed rain gardens under
22 that program?
23 A I did read that in the district's materials,
24 yes.
25 Q And do you know what the incentive is under
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1 that program for customers?
2 A I'd have to defer to the staff on that.
3 Q Okay. And do you have any sense with other
4 programs where there's some kind of incentive whether
5 this program would be considered a success? Is this a
6 typical kind of participation rate or is it low, high?
7 A I couldn't say. I'm sorry.
8 Q Okay. And the district's projecting that
9 they'll have 50 customers per year that will take
10 advantage of this credit. Do you have any opinion
11 about that number, whether that is high, low, or as
12 far as these kinds of credit programs go?
13 A It seems reasonable.
14 Q Okay. Why does that seem reasonable?
15 A Well, the -- a condition of the incentive is
16 that the facility is not a municipal separate storm
17 sewer system or MS4 permit-regulated requirement; so
18 it would be a voluntarily installed device. And so
19 because it requires some investment by the homeowner,
20 I don't think it would be expected that you would have
21 zero participation, but I'm not sure that you would,
22 you know, have an exceedingly high percentage of
23 participation.
24 Q What do you think the typical homeowner
25 investment will be for one of these types of programs?
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1 A I don't know a dollar figure.
2 Q Well, you said it'd be typical because
3 they're going to make an investment; so is a rain
4 garden for a typical home, do you have any sense of
5 what that would cost?
6 A I would defer to the district staff for
7 that.
8 Q Well, in your experience in the -- just your
9 experience, generally. What is your experience?
10 A It would depend.
11 Q What would it depend on?
12 A The size, the design requirements --
13 Q Are you familiar with MSD's design
14 requirements for rain gardens?
15 A Not in detail.
16 Q What do you know generally?
17 A I will defer to the district staff on
18 questions about the design of the rain gardens.
19 Q Well, I'm not asking you to -- about whether
20 their design is a good design, bad design. I'm just
21 asking what you're familiar with. If you're not
22 familiar with it, that's fine, too. I mean, I'm just
23 trying to figure it out.
24 A Right.
25 Q So that will be something you're not
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1 familiar with?
2 A No.
3 Q Thank you. So do you have any opinion about
4 ways that the credit program could be enhanced to
5 encourage more participation?
6 A No.
7 Q In your experience with other incentive
8 programs, have you seen other incentive programs do
9 different things that have caused greater
10 participation?
11 A I guess I don't have a reason to believe
12 that these wouldn't have participation.
13 Q Well, what I'm talking about is greater
14 participation than 50 customers a year. I don't know
15 how many customers MS -- the district has, but it's
16 significantly more than 50, by a factor of many, many
17 times; so 50 seems exceedingly small to me. And I'm
18 trying to figure out how we can encourage people to --
19 I think the phrase has been used -- do the right thing
20 and to address the stormwater problems that are in the
21 region on an individual or group basis through the
22 homeowners associations. That's what I'm kind of
23 exploring with you.
24 And so this incentive program is designed or
25 is believed will generate 50 folks a year. And what
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1 I'm asking you, is there something that, in your
2 opinion, since you're familiar with other programs, is
3 there something that we could do to make it better to
4 get more participation?
5 A I think that within what the district is
6 trying to achieve, that this particular incentive
7 program is doing a good job to garner participation.
8 Q And what do you think the district's trying
9 to achieve?
10 A To inline with the CIRP and address erosion
11 and flooding.
12 Q Okay. And what does that mean? And would
13 you please address the question as opposed to your
14 counsel.
15 A Yeah. That's -- I mean, I would address it
16 the way I just addressed it.
17 Q So do you think that if the incentive
18 program were -- if more people participated, would
19 that reduce erosion in the district?
20 A It had -- has the potential to.
21 Q And would it reduce flooding?
22 A It has the potential to.
23 Q And so what do you think could be done to
24 encourage more participation in this program by
25 individuals in the district?
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1 A Well, I think that the district can work to
2 advertise the program and make customers aware that
3 it's available and make it easy for them to apply; so
4 they're aware of it and they take advantage of the
5 program.
6 Q If a typical rain garden were to cost
7 $3,000, which I think is probably low for a homeowner,
8 do you think the $135 incentive is going to be
9 effective to encourage them to participate?
10 A I would hope so.
11 Q Okay. Do you have any opinion about the
12 program to cause a retrofitting of detention of basins
13 through credits or cost-sharing? Do you have opinions
14 about those kinds of programs?
15 A What sort of programs are you thinking of
16 specifically?
17 Q Well, like a cost-sharing program. Do you
18 have any opinion about those?
19 A A cost-sharing program seems good.
20 Q Okay. Are there, in the cost-sharing
21 programs that you've seen implemented, are there --
22 have you seen different levels of cost-sharing,
23 depending on the type of project?
24 A I don't think I can recall off the top of my
25 head enough details about the cost-sharing programs
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1 that I've talked about today to answer that question.
2 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Thank you. I have
3 nothing further.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Goss.
5 Any further questions?
6 Yes, Mr. Ratzki.
7 QUESTIONS BY MR. RATZKI:
8 Q Earlier in the day, we talked a little bit
9 about the potential for future stormwater rate or rate
10 increases, and on that topic, have other stormwater
11 utilities you've worked with looked at an impervious
12 rate as a way to provide revenue to handle water
13 quality projects and water quality improvement
14 program? Is that under the definition of fair and
15 reasonable and use the impervious rate to do that?
16 A Yes, I've seen that.
17 Q So in turn, this -- if this rate was
18 implemented, it could be used in the future to help
19 the district pay for what new regulations might come
20 down the line for water quality?
21 A I would defer to the district's counsel on
22 that question.
23 Q Okay. But in other utilities and other
24 places, water quality issues can be financed by --
25 A That is true.
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1 Q -- impervious rate?
2 A Yes.
3 COMMISSIONER RATZKI: Okay. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Further questions for this
5 witness?
6 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
7 Q I have two questions. First being, in your
8 experience with these impervious area based rates, how
9 have non-profits been treated in those areas?
10 A Most often, non-profits are treated just
11 like other customers, in that they're charged the same
12 rate on the same basis as other customers.
13 Q My second question has to do with the
14 assessment chart or the prioritization chart that
15 Mr. Unverferth reviewed earlier. In your experience,
16 how often have you seen something similar to that or
17 analogous to that or is this a common practice, unique
18 practice? Talk about that chart a little bit.
19 A Okay. To start with, I haven't reviewed the
20 chart in detail; so I'll say that to start with. I
21 will say, though, that it is pretty common for
22 utilities to develop a prioritization of their list of
23 capital improvement projects so that they can decide,
24 you know, what money to -- you know, when to spend
25 what money on projects. And so I think that's --
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1 Q You have --
2 A -- not at all uncommon.
3 Q You have not compared this chart to the
4 other charts that you've seen?
5 A I have not compared it to other charts, no.
6 Q Would you plan on doing that sometime in the
7 near future and giving us a feedback on that?
8 A Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Further questions for this
10 witness?
11 Ms. Myers, do you have any questions?
12 MS. MYERS: I do not have any questions for
13 Henrietta.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Locklear, thank you
15 very much.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Appreciate it. It wasn't
18 that bad, was it?
19 Ms. Stump, are there any other issues you
20 would care for us to cover before we move on to
21 adjournment?
22 MS. STUMP: I do not have any other issues.
23 Would you like for me to maybe remind the commission of
24 what's coming up next?
25 MS. MYERS: I have one --
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Myers?
2 MS. MYERS: I'd like to make one
3 clarification before we move on.
4 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please.
5 MS. MYERS: Some earlier testimony regarding
6 the district's outstanding debt was inaccurate; so I
7 wanted to clarify that.
8 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you.
9 MS. MYERS: The district's outstanding debt
10 is currently at $1.5 billion; so that clarifies a
11 number that was given previously. That's just for
12 your-all information.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: May I ask one further
14 question then?
15 MS. MYERS: As long as you don't get too far
16 into the outstanding debt.
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Related to that debt, I
18 know we have had discussion in the past of where the
19 threshold is on bond rating thresholds. Do you know
20 how close that amount of debt is to impacting the bond
21 rating?
22 MS. MYERS: I will refer to Marion on that.
23 MR. GEE: If I understand your question,
24 you're asking at what point -- at what level debt would
25 MSD need to get to before there's a negative impact on
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1 this bond rating. And I would say it varies. There is
2 no magical number per se. If the district is willing
3 to approve, for instance, rate increases that keeps
4 that coverage level high enough, there would not be an
5 impact. If we're able to do things to reduce expenses.
6 So the amount of debt that is on your books
7 is not the sole indicator in terms of how your bonds
8 are rated. So there is no magical number that's out
9 there. Again, there's a number of factors, what your
10 debt-service coverage is, number of days of cash that
11 you have on hand. Those are typical indicators that a
12 rating agency would look at to determine how you rate
13 it.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I would suggest any
15 information you could provide to the rate commission
16 along those lines of that balance of those calculations
17 would be appreciated.
18 MR. GEE: Yes, sir. I believe we had
19 provided as exhibits the -- or maybe we did not. If we
20 haven't, we will give you the rating agency -- the
21 latest rating agency reports. Within those reports
22 they list the strengths and weaknesses and also any
23 concerns that they have with respect to the debt of the
24 district. So if we have not provided those as
25 exhibits, we will do so.
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1 MS. MYERS: We have them.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Ms. Stump?
3 Anything else, Ms. Myers?
4 MS. MYERS: No, that's it.
5 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Stump?
6 MS. STUMP: I was just going to remind the
7 commission of the upcoming -- the next activities.
8 Again, if you have any questions to be submitted for
9 written discovery, please get those to me by Monday.
10 Then on Friday, April 16th, the rebuttal testimony will
11 be due and that will be submitted by Ms. Lemoine and
12 MIEC. And then following that, we will then have
13 another technical conference similar to this one where
14 those parties will testify and that will be starting on
15 April 25th. And I do believe in there somewhere you
16 have a meeting, Mr. Brockmann, on --
17 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: April 20th.
18 MS. STUMP: -- April 20th, you have a meeting
19 for training on your public hearings.
20 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: April 20th at 9:00 a.m. is
21 the media training?
22 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Yes.
23 MS. STUMP: And in the meantime, if anybody
24 has any questions, don't hesitate to e-mail me or call
25 me.
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Are there any further
2 questions or comments prior to adjournment?
3 Yes, Mr. Mahfood.
4 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: I just wanted to
5 clarify that we should get any questions, Lisa, to you
6 for this third request?
7 MS. STUMP: Correct. By Monday morning would
8 be great.
9 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: Great.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any further questions? We
11 will stand adjourned until 9:00 a.m. on April 25, 2018,
12 if there is no motion -- if there is a motion to
13 adjourn.
14 COMMISSIONER STEIN: So moved.
15 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Motion made, seconded to
17 adjourn. All in favor, signify by saying "aye."
18 THE COMMISSION: (Collectively) Aye.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Opposed?
20 (No response.)
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We are adjourned.
22 (Whereupon, the Meeting of the Rate
23 Commission was adjourned.)
24
25
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1 REPORTER CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, REBECCA L. TUGGLE, a Registered
4 Professional Reporter, Certified Court Reporter, and
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter within and for the State
6 of Missouri, do hereby certify that the MSD hearing
7 held on April 4, 2018, commenced at Metropolitan St.
8 Louis Sewer District, 2350 Market Street, Room 109,
9 St. Louis, Missouri 63103; that said hearing was
10 reported by myself, translated and proofread using
11 computer-aided transcription; and the above transcript
12 of proceedings is a true and accurate transcript of my
13 notes as taken at the time the proceedings were had.
14 I further certify that I am neither attorney
15 nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the
16 parties to the action in which this hearing was taken;
17 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
18 attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or
19 financially interested in this action.
20
21
22
23 ____________________________________
24 Rebecca L. Tuggle, RPR, CCR, CSR
25
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A
abate 133:24
abated 132:5
ability 11:17,22
42:20 81:8
82:9 83:21
86:3 105:1
122:9 128:11
135:9 152:14
192:21
able 107:8
116:10 119:5,12
119:13 122:12
123:15 124:4,7
136:15 149:15
149:19 151:5
154:17 155:1
157:10 159:20
161:4 163:21
168:10,13,13
181:1 183:8
193:5 203:8
207:9 226:15
240:5
absolutely 76:3
214:5
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59:11
AC 127:24
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167:5,6,8,10
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96:24
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192:23 203:6
205:7
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201:13
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98:6,12 117:23
118:6 125:2,4
125:9,18,19
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accurately
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234:9
acquired
165:24
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109:10,19
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acre 128:18,24
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128:2,3 129:10
acres 128:24
act 45:16 68:24
action 52:24
89:10 243:16
243:19
actions 57:23
activate 69:23
activities 36:12
36:14,23 37:18
40:1 241:7
activity 72:4
119:15
actual 23:4 56:1
93:15 94:20
96:20 104:3
108:1 122:10
123:5 128:9
152:3 174:9,11
178:20
actuals 174:5
add 30:14 63:16
85:11 94:8
111:6 122:10
213:5
added 157:15
adding 167:14
addition 109:5
128:14 164:21
173:20
additional 12:9
15:11 17:3
24:10,18 26:2
27:16 28:5
35:5,6 40:2
57:10 59:2,10
59:11 75:12
79:8 109:6
117:20 127:6,9
128:10 129:24
156:24 162:5
164:14 165:2,4
165:11 170:11
173:9 185:5
186:4,9,15
187:22 191:7
191:18 194:1,2
194:6
address 18:25
20:10 24:2
27:7 29:14
34:25 35:4
40:22 50:2
70:9,14 71:10
72:6 87:18
98:8 99:3
107:6,9 111:20
119:6,13 128:15
136:2 144:15
147:7,12
148:16 151:5
153:14,19
155:14 162:4
180:8,17 183:6
198:20
233:20
234:10,13,15
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98:14 177:3,6
211:12 234:16
addressing
29:10 87:5
125:2,5,7,20
125:21 128:18
128:24 129:10
152:25 196:22
227:21
adequate 11:18
81:8
adjacent 128:6
adjourn 242:13
242:17
adjourned
242:11,21,23
adjournment
238:21 242:2
adjust 44:16
97:7 118:10
120:4 181:13
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161:15 165:9
administer
186:15
administered
112:17
administrative
188:7,22
administrators
213:3
adopted 12:11
55:25 189:18
advantage
72:25 74:11,13
133:13 135:9
136:15 139:11
139:17,23
140:10 231:10
235:4
advertise 143:4
143:12 235:2
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224:2
affidavit 15:18
15:18,24 16:15
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67:24 78:11,13
78:20,22
175:25
affordable
52:12
afraid 146:12
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197:12 210:13
214:19,20
221:17
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183:21
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240:12,20,21
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8:5
ago 24:12,17
30:11 34:13
47:12 52:10
117:7,10 121:6
146:7 177:3,7
200:3 214:22
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148:18 189:8
189:12,24
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191:13,15
agreement
45:13 60:22
100:12 101:9
101:14 105:13
105:17 107:20
108:4,6,21
113:4,24
145:17 148:22
229:24 230:2
230:9,9
agreements
104:3,5 108:6
108:14 220:24
ahead 21:20
78:13 141:15
157:22 184:21
189:1 211:23
akin 84:4
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algorithms
126:5
align 182:4
alignment
220:23
alleviate 27:22
allocate 15:5
129:17
allocated
158:20,25
allocates
202:17
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68:2 78:3
97:7 112:1
114:9 146:24
154:9 155:21
173:16 182:8
191:21
allowances
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61:2 154:8
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67:23
allows 112:24
129:23
alternative
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53:15 66:14
alternatives
52:19
amend 8:5
amended 9:25
11:16,24 83:9
amendment
10:1
amount 26:22
27:16 28:23
31:1,5 35:15
42:5 51:20
56:24 66:20
70:11 85:6
100:6 109:16
128:20 129:22
130:20 131:20
132:2 133:22
148:23 151:19
152:8 164:21
164:25 165:6
165:15 167:7,9
168:20 172:25
173:3,4 178:20
199:1,11,21
200:25 201:11
209:8 219:5
239:20 240:6
amounts 11:10
35:20 47:2
49:1 172:21
analogous
237:17
analyses 96:14
141:19
analysis 24:24
25:1,2,14
27:15,21,25
28:1,7,23 29:2
29:6,7,9 32:5
62:17 63:5,25
66:25 81:12
82:4,5,13
93:11,13 95:7
95:21 96:11
98:5 110:7
121:15 124:17
130:9 142:8
153:9 154:16
155:9,10 157:9
179:9 189:15
209:8
analyzed 152:2
analyzes 101:5
161:6
and/or 69:2
anecdotal
145:6
anecdotally
147:21
angle 206:6
animal 111:22
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31:13 35:23
40:2 50:23
60:4 133:16
140:22 161:8
171:25 198:19
annually 134:9
193:3
answer 13:8,18
14:4,25 26:7,9
50:16 55:10,16
56:4,6,16
60:13 66:12
73:4,11,14
74:25 84:17
87:23 91:8
105:5 117:24
117:25 123:15
123:18,21,25
124:19 134:25
140:7 149:20
151:15 157:3,17
182:5 185:7
186:3 187:16
190:13 192:24
196:14 203:9
207:24 210:19
213:3 222:15
236:1
answered 31:10
57:7 81:13
82:16 84:15
177:13
answering
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answers 147:22
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59:23 97:22
103:3 110:13
116:18 118:10
133:18 163:12
anticipated 11:11
47:3 49:2
59:2 97:16
102:25 204:8
anybody 9:7
117:1 160:20
241:23
anymore 30:13
40:14 41:7
112:1
anyway 86:13
apologize
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195:3
app 119:4 161:22
apparently 79:7
118:15
appeal 34:16
224:6
appear 185:25
appearance
21:2
APPEARANC...
4:1 5:1
appearing
22:23
appears 30:2
144:25 185:23
194:12 198:7
appendices
143:15 203:14
204:4
appendix 74:15
130:16 133:15
169:23 170:1
230:20
applicability
44:24
applicable 11:23
19:14 52:13
82:9 83:14
221:6
application 12:7
12:14,15,17
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100:19,19,23
131:17
applies 89:4
apply 38:10
42:24 88:4,6
88:8 91:14
120:15 121:4,9
135:20 144:3
205:3 211:18
235:3
applying 126:11
130:19 143:22
appraisal
107:23
appreciate 9:18
22:24 86:22
169:5 192:2
209:25
219:23 238:17
appreciated
240:17
approach 72:14
160:8 198:25
206:19 209:3
210:21,24
211:13 220:11
226:6
appropriate
27:6 29:1 36:4
36:10 42:18
73:7 74:8
102:10 151:12
187:18,20
188:11,17
approval 7:23
approve 8:12
202:18,21
240:3
approved 9:23
60:10
approximately
44:7 101:25
156:8 158:24
164:3 174:8
206:15
April 1:10 6:2
13:14,16,16
20:17 53:13
76:6,13 170:9
241:10,15,17,18
241:20 242:11
243:7
area 18:12
20:22 23:11,16
23:17 33:19,23
33:25 34:4,6
34:9,22 35:16
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36:4 37:12
51:6,20,22
52:10 58:18
62:16 68:18
70:24 102:1,4
105:12 110:8
112:22 113:10
114:8 115:9,20
115:23 126:20
126:22 127:9
129:16 131:13
131:14 142:13
158:3 174:19
174:21,23,24
178:4,15,16,23
198:23 199:1,11
199:12,21
200:6,13,25
201:10,11,19
201:23,24,25
202:5,13,15
206:23 208:7
210:20 212:8
215:22 216:17
216:19 217:7,9
217:18,20
218:1 219:11
220:1 222:2,3
222:20 223:2
223:10,14,15
223:17,22
224:13 227:19
237:8
areas 23:24
34:2,18 53:10
61:17 62:1
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104:13,25
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118:13,15 121:1
121:2,3 127:12
149:20 156:23
206:17 211:2
211:25 214:23
237:9
arena 207:6
211:4,7,8
argue 103:11
argument
146:13
arising 170:19
arrangements
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201:5
arrived 102:17
110:7 123:14
article 117:6
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52:4 77:17
86:13 91:16,18
94:24 135:8
136:20 161:18
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174:2 177:8,9
186:2
asking 24:17
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110:12,13
125:9,15,17
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133:3 139:3,3
139:21 164:17
165:16 176:7
222:16
229:20
232:19,21
234:1 239:24
asks 55:18
185:4
aspects 20:24
assembly 54:11
assess 31:2
80:11 216:18
assessed 81:11
105:9 204:23
assessing 96:6
assessment
95:4,8 103:13
126:13,16
140:20 142:1,2
187:9 237:14
assessments
141:19
asset 163:17,19
188:14
assets 11:8
58:23 163:16
165:17,18,24
166:2,18,25
assign 142:2
assigned
125:25
assist 33:5
66:14 191:10
assistance
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43:1 191:8,9
assisted 197:16
198:5
assists 228:19
associated
10:18 27:17
28:25 84:20
87:22 157:16
178:10,25
180:25 186:10
228:3
associates
144:12
association
10:23,24 73:9
73:22 135:11
136:9,12
137:16 216:23
219:10 228:4
228:16 229:2
229:5,8
associations
72:25 73:17,19
135:9 136:10
138:4,18
216:15,20
228:8,9,10,20
228:24
229:15
233:22
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49:15 75:13
79:22 86:16
103:25 118:5
140:14 189:18
189:21
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assuming
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124:21 154:14
183:8
assumption
189:23
assure 27:8
161:2
assured 45:9
attached 122:18
149:15
attempt 15:5
attention 59:21
185:1
attorney 4:2,3,7
4:8 215:4
243:14,18
audited 174:7
author 214:9
authority 80:20
85:25 104:22
105:1 182:23
183:3
automatically
145:23
available 23:15
34:17 40:2
47:12 49:16,19
62:12 74:3
76:11 77:9
78:12 80:14
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106:13 110:3
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180:19 189:10
191:7 215:15
216:3,15,19,22
217:4 228:22
229:4,19,22
235:3
avenue 88:14
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131:7,11,11,16
132:22 203:11
203:14,15
awarded
130:20
aware 75:15
106:7 115:8
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176:18 207:10
211:11 214:25
218:11,14
219:25 220:2
230:19 235:2
235:4
awhile 32:4
54:13
aye 8:21,22
16:18,19
242:17,18
a.m 241:20
242:11
B
back 34:2 41:15
44:15 46:3,8
49:18,24 51:2
51:10 52:22
57:2 63:9
65:21 72:12
78:8 83:16
85:16 93:9
96:5 97:8,9
98:21 100:18
102:20 103:7
107:1 110:20
112:4 114:17
127:11 132:20
141:10,22
143:14 146:9
146:18 147:18
148:11 153:7
171:13 174:15
219:20 221:18
background
26:16 207:15
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backlog 30:9
backups 69:2
backwards
35:4 109:20
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28:6 58:16
61:1 63:12
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55:24 57:9
172:22 174:1,8
174:11 177:7
183:17 232:20
238:18
Baer 4:3 13:11
14:23
balance 49:7
50:15 77:20
167:14 168:21
169:1 202:23
240:16
Baltimore
223:5,9,20
227:14,15,22
banking 192:12
Bar 10:23
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135:15 152:20
226:4
based 30:1,20
32:4 62:18
66:19,24
76:15 84:10,21
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109:25 110:5
110:16 112:9
115:19 116:15
116:16 118:3
121:7,24
124:25 125:6
126:23 128:19
128:25 130:21
130:23 131:10
131:12,19,20
143:21 151:18
152:8,13 154:2
154:10 172:15
172:18 178:15
178:20 189:15
194:1 195:15
195:25 196:23
198:14,15
199:5 204:24
205:14 210:25
211:3 212:8,21
216:10 218:9
218:11 220:13
226:2 237:8
basement 69:2
bases 41:9
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97:21 102:2,15
129:21 132:13
134:2,5
146:24 164:14
188:14 202:18
204:7,25
206:21
basin 73:23
74:5 135:19
135:24 136:4
137:15 145:20
145:21 147:10
147:12 148:5
217:5
basing 115:2
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133:20 137:4
138:7,23
146:20 147:7
178:5 229:1,8
235:12
basis 36:17
40:2 50:23
54:20 60:4
62:17 111:14
120:9 130:8
131:8,9,23
132:10 161:8
178:5 193:2
207:8 210:18
218:5 233:21
237:12
bay 128:17,17,23
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129:9
bear 52:1
178:24 220:12
beautiful 117:11
Beckley 3:6
12:22 21:6
80:19 81:10
82:3,11 193:19
194:13 197:12
208:10,12
217:17 220:15
221:18
Beckley's 80:13
Beckmann
2:20 5:10 6:9
6:10 141:11,14
141:15,16,17
144:16,18
177:12,16
Beckmann's
176:20
becoming 71:21
before-and-af...
117:7
began 18:14
beginning 14:11
37:14 71:15
167:6
begun 111:21
behalf 14:13,16
18:10 22:9,23
80:3 154:17
behavior
133:24
believe 24:25
26:8,12 28:15
30:15 36:9
39:15 40:6
42:16 43:16
44:1 47:19
66:7,13,16
68:12 73:17
73:25 74:1
84:2 85:2
89:3 91:10
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104:3,4 137:18
152:21 153:16
153:20 168:5
168:10 170:4
170:10,18
174:2,4
175:20 178:13
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189:20 196:13
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199:23 200:6
200:11 201:22
201:23 203:7
203:9 204:10
204:12 205:2
206:15 212:12
213:22 216:13
219:12 224:8
225:18 233:11
240:18 241:15
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233:25
believes 189:19
bell 149:14
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183:1
beneficial
149:10 181:18
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55:11,13 62:17
63:2,5,14,16
63:18,25
66:25 68:3
93:11,13,16,17
94:8,15,17
95:24 96:1,11
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122:11 123:4
127:4,6,9
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141:19 144:23
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154:13,16
155:8,10,22
175:25 180:3
180:5,6 189:16
190:5 191:20
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71:7 94:11
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127:21
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199:8,16,24
207:1
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234:3
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111:6
bid 161:7
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192:14
bigger 25:20
117:14
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50:19 87:8
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57:23 73:25
117:2 130:22
130:24 131:7
131:18 132:15
132:21 134:3
136:13 142:25
145:25 148:10
173:9,11,14,17
174:25 175:5
175:6,13,14,14
192:11,12,12
193:3 201:15
201:16 223:23
billable 102:1,3
201:2,5
224:13
billed 43:7 61:8
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135:14 174:16
175:1 192:10,18
billing 31:16
43:8,11 56:9,11
103:2 158:4
173:10,15,25
174:15 178:5
178:14 184:11
192:18 193:2
218:5
billion 30:11
60:16 72:10
114:6 169:3
239:10
bills 73:17 131:9
134:3 174:17
174:18 224:2
biosoil 117:8,13
bioswale 128:13
129:2,4
bio-stabilizati ...
97:6,7 128:6
bio-stabilized
58:19
bit 35:1 36:12,13
38:3 40:24,25
41:1 42:9 43:9
45:7 47:15
51:25 71:4
83:25 86:15
99:18 106:20
110:23 111:1
119:1 121:14
150:15 151:17
170:3 172:10
179:12 197:8
206:5 207:14
217:16 236:8
237:18
Black 14:21
blight 222:25
223:5
blocks 118:14
bmalone@las...
4:6
BMP 101:5
116:10 137:23
146:3,9
BMPs 116:15
138:6 146:8
224:12 230:1
230:2
board 10:6 11:5
11:13 12:6,6
18:19 28:14
56:1 60:3
76:8,8 171:16
176:17
bolt 160:25
bond 25:25
26:1,5 163:7,9
167:25 239:19
239:20 240:1
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82:2 163:18,21
240:7
book 190:17,18
195:21 196:9
196:10
books 165:7
240:6
borrow 49:22
65:20 164:10
164:23 167:3
167:5,16,24
168:23
borrowed
167:22 168:6
168:12,22
borrowing 50:11
65:16 164:3,6
164:9 167:4
168:11 190:24
borrowings
153:12
Botanical 10:22
Bottom 105:7
bought 113:9
boundaries
23:20 35:17
103:19
Brad 5:9
Brandon 4:7
14:18 22:22
brandon.neus ...
4:11
break 79:19,20
92:23 141:3,5
141:9 193:18,21
breakdown
204:10
breaking 113:19
breaks 184:14
BRESN 120:10
Bresnan 2:9,18
3:4 5:8 6:13,14
61:11,12 62:24
119:22,23
184:4,5,16
Brian 2:6 4:3
12:20 14:22
21:3,20 54:2
63:2,4 85:10
88:3 95:12
106:21 112:22
121:15
Brian's 85:12
bridge 77:8
brief 48:16
79:20 141:9
193:21
briefly 68:6
203:21 214:21
bring 45:12
53:7
bringing 46:3
Broadway 4:9
Brockmann
2:18 5:6 6:11
6:12 7:25 8:14
16:12 22:4
53:24,25 54:1
58:2,4 116:22
116:23 118:12
119:19,21 174:2
241:16,17,22
242:15
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77:4
Bryan 4:8
bucket 78:22
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171:16 174:5
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174:8,10,13
build 23:10
60:25 78:5
98:16 120:18
132:18 173:22
208:2,3
209:3
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146:10
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120:3 146:6
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56:17 101:11,13
112:12 113:11
117:10 146:7,8
168:20
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20:20 42:13
42:21 47:22
48:9,13
190:24 195:18
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205:8
buy 58:20
67:25
buying 78:13
176:1
C
C 3:1 143:15
169:23 170:1
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calculated
26:17,18
172:16 173:19
calculating
131:10
calculation
170:22 204:7
calculations
140:3 240:16
calibrating
181:2
call 6:2,5 17:4
34:15 115:7
141:25 162:18
173:13 194:11
210:4 241:24
called 55:3
115:4 190:16
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119:9
calls 30:23
163:20
campus 98:14
capacity 62:2
101:1 197:15
198:4
capital 18:24
20:10 23:5,9
26:1,13 29:4
37:21,25 39:4
39:20 40:3,14
40:20,21
41:20 42:12
43:7 49:7,25
50:14 52:19
54:5 58:9
83:8,12,18
85:18 86:4,25
87:1,10 104:20
104:23,25
106:18 110:2
110:25 111:5
113:5 114:3
124:24 132:17
132:19 148:5,8
158:8,18,20,21
158:25 165:14
166:11 170:7
173:1,23,24
175:7,18
178:19 185:7
185:20 186:11
186:12 188:9
188:12,13,16
198:14 199:5
199:13,16
201:1 202:16
202:17,18,21
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237:23
capitalized
158:16 188:21
188:21,21
capital-related
25:24
capture 72:10
100:3,6 112:22
120:23 131:21
132:2 146:22
captured 102:15
capturing 69:10
131:13
care 40:4 59:2
62:5 118:1
137:13 150:24
179:17 228:17
238:20
careful 199:20
Carolina 227:12
carries 9:1
16:23
carryover
42:22
case 24:13,13
29:1 75:9
80:22 87:3
88:18 183:2
189:20 195:25
196:6 214:25
225:23 226:6
229:6
cases 27:21
41:14 75:9
111:18 115:3
120:20 135:17
153:6 211:15
220:18 227:19
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202:19,20,21
203:11 240:10
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121:20 159:21
166:16,17
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127:21 129:12
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cause 133:23
146:24 147:4
235:12
caused 98:17
233:9
causing 69:18
caution 76:22
Cave 4:8
CCR 1:19
243:24
cent 102:10
centers 208:3
cents 38:8
39:23 88:5
certain 45:17,17
61:17 62:16
94:8 103:24
137:5,5 179:18
182:25 183:1
186:24 218:24
certainly 24:15
175:10,13
178:22 181:8
183:14 192:16
192:24 196:2
200:20 208:6
208:16
CERTIFICATE
243:1
Certified 243:4
243:5
certify 243:6,14
cetera 160:22
160:23
chair 5:7 7:23
9:3,19,21 15:14
Chairman 2:11
2:22 3:5,9,14
6:1,8 7:10,11,15
8:2,11,16,20
8:23,25 9:5,9
9:11,15,17 14:16
14:20 15:15
16:2,6,13,17
16:20,22,25
17:7,15,19,23
18:2 21:13,22
22:1,6,12,16,18
32:20 53:19
53:24,25 58:4
60:7 61:11
62:25 63:3
65:1,4 72:19
72:21 73:20
75:3,6 79:11,16
79:18,21 80:1
80:6 82:19
90:3,22 92:13
92:17,21 93:1
93:5 99:6
113:16,18
114:14 116:20
118:3 119:21
120:11 121:12
141:2,10 144:14
144:18 145:11
147:15 149:22
149:24 150:3
159:8,11,13
162:8,15,17,22
169:10 176:25
177:15 179:4
184:2,17,19,20
184:23 185:17
191:25 192:1,5
193:6,10,13,17
193:22 194:10
194:15 197:4
197:10,25
198:2 204:14
206:1 208:9,11
209:24 210:4
210:8,11
214:16 221:9
221:14 226:10
236:4 237:4,6
238:9,14,17
239:1,4,8,13,17
240:14 241:2
241:5,20
242:1,10,16,19
242:21
challenge 208:1
challenges
89:11
Chan 5:9
chance 37:24
145:18
change 1:3 6:5
8:12 11:3,12,15
12:2,5,13
20:19,25 30:7
30:10,22
35:18 44:18
44:25 47:8
52:22 67:23
68:3 83:7
103:2 110:4,14
110:16,18
120:2 131:15
166:12 184:13
215:14 219:17
changed 19:2,8
19:19 20:2
46:18 111:25
changes 10:3
11:5 18:20,21
47:1 137:10
173:15 206:10
changing 48:9
50:3
channel 111:21
111:22
channeling
177:16
channels 41:6,8
41:13,14 61:1
62:12 111:12,23
characterizing
151:22
charge 31:2
43:5 83:21
84:4,12 86:3
87:15 142:12
142:13 188:13
215:22 218:17
charged 43:2
43:18 57:1,20
57:22 85:18
92:4 115:19
188:17,20,23
199:12 201:1
201:25 202:4
218:23 237:11
charges 26:2
87:23 88:25
91:5
charging 57:9
89:16 91:2
134:6
Charles 181:22
chart 159:15,19
209:18 237:14
237:14,18,20
238:3
charter 9:22
10:1,6 18:16,18
38:8 46:22
58:15 80:12
80:20 83:11,21
83:23,25 84:1
85:21 86:1,18
88:4
charts 160:5
238:4,5
check 22:14
89:25 115:8
179:2 183:10
192:21,23
checking
106:15
cheese 228:5
choose 77:7
chose 23:8
145:21 147:25
chosen 123:24
129:14
circle 84:24
circumstances
48:17 181:16
226:4
CIRP 67:8
107:24 109:5
156:5,17
157:17 158:2
159:2 234:10
cistern 120:23
216:6
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99:25 100:25
215:12 216:1
citations 214:25
cite 211:16
223:21
cites 143:16
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229:16
city 10:23,25
54:7 62:10,13
69:23 70:5
77:23 113:24
114:5 119:24
227:11 229:17
clarification
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197:24 239:3
clarifies 239:10
clarify 33:8
41:22 48:15
58:9 91:22
239:7 242:5
clarifying 45:1
109:7
classes 12:1
20:20
clause 40:25
clean 45:15,16
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36:18 37:8
clear 52:20
75:25 187:16
218:16
clearer 37:5
clearly 34:14
Cleveland
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208:14,20
209:17
close 22:7 72:9
94:3 95:5
123:12 239:20
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closer 94:5
151:24
Club 11:1
clubhouse
135:13,15
Coalition 10:25
45:15
colleagues
181:7
collect 36:19
50:20 60:11
70:5 137:19
192:15 193:5
205:13
collected 40:10
50:22 61:7
collecting 50:7
59:24 149:7
collection 45:19
45:20,21
205:15
Collectively
8:22 16:19
242:18
columns 123:23
combination
68:19 148:3
191:7
combined
45:22 69:23
70:5,10,15,19
70:21,24 71:19
72:5 112:21,23
114:10
combining
71:20
come 17:5
22:12 25:3
37:10 49:22
52:22 75:12
76:24 80:6
88:23,23 93:5
97:23 120:24
122:2,21
124:17 126:22
128:5 141:25
143:2 151:25
152:15 154:4
154:20 175:21
179:9 196:22
208:14 236:19
comes 30:9
48:2 50:9
56:5 70:4
95:15 196:8
208:17
comfortable
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coming 36:22
44:15 46:8
53:3 59:23
61:6 154:21,24
161:24 238:24
commenced
243:7
commensurate
138:15
comment
136:23
comments
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144:15 242:2
commercial
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101:7 116:25
117:1 119:5,11
119:12 126:10
136:21 138:8
142:17 146:4,6
154:25 162:2
203:23 219:19
commercial/i ...
10:11
COMMISIONER
120:10
commission 1:1
4:6 6:3 8:22
9:20 10:2,8,10
10:17 11:4,13
12:2,4,7,9,12
12:19,23 13:1,6
13:10,11,13,20
13:24 14:6,22
14:23 15:5,17
15:19,23 16:19
18:8,18 21:12
22:2 25:5
33:5,6 43:15
44:5,16 46:3
46:25 47:5,13
48:18,24 51:17
52:23 53:8
55:20 76:8
79:18 113:19
119:3 124:4
142:23 143:5
162:23 197:20
198:10 200:3
205:17 207:17
238:23
240:15 241:7
242:18,23
commissioner
2:7,8,8,9,9,10
2:10,14,14,17
2:17,18,18,19
2:19,20,20,21
2:21 3:3,4,4,8
3:8,12,13,13
6:9,10,11,12,13
6:14,15,16,17
6:18,19,20,21
6:23,25 7:2,4
7:5,6,8,9,12
7:25 8:1,4,14
8:15 9:13 16:10
16:12 22:4
53:24 54:1
58:2,6,7 60:6
60:8 61:10,12
62:24 63:1,4
64:7,25 65:4
65:7 72:17,21
72:22 73:8,21
75:2 90:7,20
90:25 92:12
113:22 114:13
114:15 116:19
116:23 118:12
119:19,23
120:12 121:10
121:13 140:25
141:16,17
144:16,20,21
145:13,14
147:14,16,17
149:21,24
150:4,5 159:6
163:6 179:7
184:1,5,16,19
184:22 185:18
191:24 194:5
204:18
205:24 221:13
221:16 226:8
226:12 236:2
237:3 241:17
241:22 242:4
242:9,14,15
commissioners
5:3 7:17 8:11
9:12 16:3 17:3
17:10 22:7
45:2 53:21
65:2 75:4
79:12 90:4
92:14 141:5,6
149:25 162:11
179:5 192:4
193:24 204:16
221:10
commission's
14:24 46:22
commitment
39:21 69:8
71:24 114:7
commitments
71:11 78:7
common 11:16
80:19 83:9,14
135:12 150:7
202:12 206:18
209:15 215:21
215:23 216:2
217:1,21,24,25
218:2,6 219:2
220:11,17
228:17 237:17
237:21
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commonly
171:10 211:25
218:8
commonly-o...
217:7
communicate
54:22 75:17
communicating
54:15,17 75:14
communication
60:23
communicati...
53:6 61:4 76:9
communities
67:25 68:1
78:11,23 114:18
community
10:15 69:1
75:24 78:6
79:1
compare 55:4
125:15
compared
25:17 56:18
57:18 59:8
125:14 174:5
238:3,5
comparing
125:16,16
136:20
comparison
120:6 225:12
compelling
225:24
compensated
187:1
complained
22:17
complaint 27:2
complaints
30:5,20
54:20 126:21
complete 96:24
154:1 155:2,2
156:5 157:9
158:17 191:21
191:22 195:6,7
completed 15:8
109:22,25
154:7 180:11
182:18 190:7
212:13
completely
87:2 105:10
completeness
91:11
completing
98:3
completion
65:10
complex
220:23
comply 11:23
82:9
complying 92:2
component
72:8
components
41:9
comprehensive
24:2
comprised
158:1
computed 173:4
204:3
computer-aid ...
243:11
concede 180:18
concentrate
61:18
concentrating
62:16
concentration
62:3
concept 95:17
148:18 182:21
211:2,19
conceptual
66:19 95:14,21
95:22 109:9
109:18 151:20
152:7,19
160:22 161:10
conceptually
95:10
concern 75:20
160:9 164:25
167:15
concerned
39:22 49:3
148:24 164:12
181:14 182:12
concerning
14:21 80:20
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167:25 189:7
240:23
concludes 21:10
concluding
14:12
conclusion
85:23
concrete 34:2
37:13 41:8,8,9
60:25 111:12
202:4 223:24
concrete-lined
111:23
condition 37:7
101:9 231:15
condominium
219:18
conducted
14:10 36:14
80:23 81:12
82:5 93:12,14
96:14 124:20
Conducting
96:10
conference 1:8
13:4,7,12,15,17
13:22 14:1,3
241:13
conferences
20:7
confident
152:10,10,10
152:13
confidential
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configuration
216:22 217:1
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219:1
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confusion
44:23
connection
91:13 208:19
consent 19:12
19:13 44:24
45:4,13,25
46:6,13 68:9
68:10,14 69:6
69:15 71:11,23
71:25 72:2
75:13,25
112:10,12
140:13 148:22
164:23 167:13
167:19 191:4,13
conservative
171:1
conserve 154:17
155:3 191:23
consider 6:4
15:23 25:25
31:20 42:7
46:25 47:5
48:25 84:3,9
155:21 181:1,3
189:5
consideration
20:17 24:19
31:15 77:2
94:14,22
109:10 123:6
155:19
considerations
56:14 164:20
considered
26:6 67:2
83:16 88:19
88:24 89:1,9
163:7,10 195:11
206:18 219:10
219:18 231:5
consistency
160:6,14 161:1
consistent 11:15
11:19 80:18
81:25 83:8,10
83:13 154:13
154:16 155:8
155:10,22
191:19
consisting
66:18 156:9
consists 10:17
constituents
183:22
constitutes
211:12
constitution
18:14,15 92:2
constitutional
11:15 80:18,21
83:8,13
construct 28:8
38:21 108:17
112:21 132:19
134:18 148:9
156:5 159:1
164:11,15
165:17
constructed
69:9 112:16
113:7 135:16
176:14 224:11
constructing
41:8 134:23
166:24 188:14
222:10
construction
10:20 29:17
48:6 60:15,17
66:3 67:20
95:20 98:9
108:23 144:5
146:5 184:7,11
constructions
184:15
constructs
100:11
consultant 13:13
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81:19 135:5
142:7 144:2
197:15 198:5
207:17,19
consultants
13:23 21:7,8
141:21 190:15
193:15
consulting
108:15
consumers 4:12
10:21 11:2
12:16 14:17
22:10,24 31:4
80:4
contained
210:18 212:4
217:5
containing
217:20
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contaminants
94:18 128:8
contemplated
65:16,19 66:10
contemplating
154:12
context 42:12
182:21 183:4
contingencies
203:18
contingency
44:6
continually
117:17
continue 17:10
32:16 37:17
39:9 43:8,11
106:12 164:23
206:12
CONTINUED
5:1
continuously
30:7
contract 209:10
Contractors
10:18
contractual
118:18
contradicts
90:18
contribute 67:7
67:14 153:22
221:1
contributed
154:15
contributes
208:4
contributing
98:17 102:6
121:9
contribution
178:7
contributions
66:9 77:6
220:7,8,13
control 18:25
20:11 69:7
70:20 163:16
166:5,14,20
183:8 198:20
conversation
112:9 159:14
221:19
convey 43:14
44:5
copies 226:15
copy 68:14
90:9 214:4
corporate 98:14
correct 24:10,11
24:14 28:20
41:22 57:11,12
65:12,17 66:5
66:22,25
67:12 68:22
68:23 69:5
73:18 83:5
85:1,9 86:19
88:13 92:9
96:12 97:13
99:17 100:17
101:24 105:6,6
105:19 124:3
129:7,11 136:14
137:12 147:13
152:21 153:12
153:13,18 154:1
154:7,18
156:13 159:4
169:4,24
172:20,23,24
173:2 175:4,9
177:15 179:19
179:20 185:24
186:11,12,17,21
187:2,7,14,24
189:13 191:13
193:14,16
197:18 198:8
201:2,7,17
202:10 212:3
212:5,6,14
214:11 219:6
242:7
corrected 121:6
correctly 26:12
30:4 39:18
97:17 126:8
137:1 151:22
158:12 165:22
212:23 221:25
correlation
178:23
correspond
85:12
corresponds
85:1 177:25
corrugated
37:14
COSs 114:7
cost 11:9 25:12
25:17 27:18
27:22 28:2,24
29:16 32:5,6
34:23,25
35:17,24 37:16
38:16 43:22
47:1 51:19
62:17 63:2,5
63:17,18,25
64:18,21
66:25 68:3
78:20 79:1
93:11,13,17,17
94:24 95:17
95:18,20,21
95:22,25
96:11,13 97:23
107:24 109:5
109:6,10,18,19
116:5 121:15
123:4 130:8
132:23 133:1
133:16 137:15
137:21,24
138:13 141:19
144:23 149:6
152:19 154:13
154:16 155:8
155:10,22
157:14 158:7
158:13,15
160:19 161:1,3
161:7,10 164:11
165:11 171:2,25
172:10 173:6
175:10 178:6,9
178:22,24
180:23,24
189:15 190:5
190:24 191:20
198:25 199:9
199:17 203:4
204:2 220:4
220:12 222:8
232:5 235:6
costed 172:7
costs 26:13
27:15,16 28:8
67:21 94:25
109:9 113:5
133:6 138:2
157:25 158:2
161:14,14 166:1
173:18 179:10
182:8 192:11
200:12 203:6
210:22 211:14
cost-share 77:11
77:13 155:6
181:4,25 182:5
220:19 221:4
225:17
cost-shared
180:1
cost-sharing
77:7 161:19
175:23 179:13
179:20 180:20
181:2,20,23
183:14,21
220:2 227:2
227:3,11,16,20
235:13,17,19
235:20,22,25
Council 10:20
10:21
counsel 2:12
4:13 6:6 13:11
13:21 14:7,23
15:6,8 17:22
18:6 21:4
90:14,15,17
200:15 234:14
236:21 243:15
243:18
counselor 33:4
count 119:7
144:11 158:23
County 9:24
10:19,24
23:22 37:12
54:7 62:8
181:21,22
couple 17:2
32:13 47:12
49:18 62:20
75:7 140:3,18
141:12 159:11
164:20 175:21
179:8 226:13
course 143:17
165:2 196:19
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court 7:16,19
53:22 85:22
86:20 89:14
214:22 243:4
courts 211:11
covenant 11:20
82:1
covenants 82:4
228:7
cover 11:10 47:3
49:1 57:13
203:19
238:20
coverage
56:22 164:13
168:20 240:4
240:10
covered 20:14
71:22
create 146:24
165:5 191:17
created 51:6
96:4,5 133:24
187:13
creating 155:21
creation 41:23
credit 66:7
72:24 73:1
74:2,19 99:14
99:20,24
100:7,16,19
101:19 102:10
102:16 116:9
117:2 120:13,15
120:22 130:19
130:19,21,25
131:2,6,17,19
131:23 132:10
132:11 133:4,6
133:23 134:2
134:5,10,16,17
134:20 135:2
135:10,21
136:17 138:3
138:10,15,20
139:9,12,14
145:16,22,25
146:4,10,14,25
147:23 148:14
149:4 172:16
172:18,20
204:8,9 215:9
215:14,24
216:2,5,22,24
217:1,4,10
221:20
224:20 226:1
226:16
227:22
228:22 229:4
229:18 231:10
231:12 233:4
credits 35:19
99:21 100:22
100:22 101:20
101:21,22
116:24 130:15
134:9 135:20
145:15 147:20
172:1,5,6,9,14
203:22,24
224:25
226:14 235:13
creek 41:16
63:12,14,15
97:7 112:4
128:6
creeks 23:13,19
35:6
criteria 80:11,15
81:7,12,17
100:2 124:3
137:6,6 183:10
195:10 196:14
196:18 200:2
211:19 216:11
criterion 82:8
196:17
Croyle 5:4 6:15
6:16 16:10
crunch 194:4
CSO 139:18
140:2,12
230:16
CSR 1:19
243:24
cumulative
126:18
cumulatively
139:4
curious 102:23
current 15:16
18:23 19:4,9
19:15,20,21
20:3,4,9
29:25,25 31:2
36:14 38:10
46:19 47:7
49:17 59:8
68:4,11 72:14
78:17 88:7,8,9
109:15 110:1,2
110:8 124:25
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currently 10:17
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31:17 42:16,23
44:11 53:11
87:20 119:17
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187:10 201:14
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curve 95:21
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132:14,17,23
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24:20,23
26:3 43:5,8,13
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87:19 131:7,8
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172:13,17
173:10,13
174:19,20,23
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193:2 201:12
203:23
218:24,25
220:9 221:1,5
224:2 225:2
230:21 231:1,9
233:14,15
235:2 237:11
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109:24 110:1,5
118:11 124:5
139:15,18
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171:9 174:3
213:11
database
126:19
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dated 213:25
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76:24 236:8
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240:10
day-to-day
111:14
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121:22 182:22
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208:16
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55:24 57:9
66:9 163:12
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167:3,7,11,12
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168:25 172:22
174:1,9,11 177:7
193:5 239:6,9
239:16,17,20
239:24 240:6
240:23
debt-service
164:13 168:15
168:20 240:10
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212:25 222:6
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153:21 181:8
215:5
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189:3 214:22
215:1
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228:7
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89:10
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72:5 79:1
204:20 222:3
222:19
decree 19:12,13
44:24 45:4,13
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defensible
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definition
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61:5 182:3
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demolition
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demonstrate
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department
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156:8 157:15
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58:24 103:12
154:20 157:4
188:2 192:19
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31:24 32:2
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67:10 74:7,25
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detailed 20:24
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55:15 56:6
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153:1
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137:2,3,4
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101:21 102:9
121:8 197:22
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32:7
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110:1 119:25
124:2 126:22
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101:20 102:12
104:12,12
105:12 112:18
116:17 146:7
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208:6 213:14
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224:1
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105:9 111:22
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220:19 226:13
228:15,15
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differentiate
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differently
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difficult 115:14
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50:25 51:10
85:16,16
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194:1,8 241:9
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58:12 110:6
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discussion 8:3
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175:22,23
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4:17 6:4 9:21
9:22 10:3,5,7
10:9,13 11:4,8
11:22,23 12:3
12:6,18,24,25
13:2,2,7,8,20
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24:6 25:17
26:19 35:17
36:15 41:7
42:19 49:6,16
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150:8,13
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176:5,8,16
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194:1,3,7
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228:25 229:9
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235:1 236:19
240:2,24
243:8
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103:18 104:5,7
104:10,21,22
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227:1,4,5
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11:17 20:18,23
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66:10 81:8
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103:18 107:14
178:1 199:13,15
203:25 218:21
219:11 230:16
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239:9
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222:4,9
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E 2:1 3:1,1 218:16
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26:20 34:25
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et 160:22,23
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evaluated
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Executive 21:3
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39:12 41:4,19
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81:2,16 82:14
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F
facets 48:18
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103:8 129:3,13
129:18 131:22
201:23,24
202:5,7
felt 76:18 102:5
123:3 124:2
132:1 147:10
148:4 151:12
193:1 198:18
fence 63:12
field 141:13
figure 109:11
125:24 126:17
127:13 140:6
198:12 232:1
232:23
233:18
figured 228:11
figures 174:6
filed 12:16,25
13:6 15:18,25
21:17 68:8
fill 187:23
filled 127:11
filling 35:7
final 20:11 52:16
55:25 88:14
112:8
finally 13:10,21
14:7
finance 11:8
21:6 173:8
175:18
financed
236:24
financial 21:7,8
47:22 48:13
50:9 197:17
198:6 203:25
204:19
207:20
financially 50:2
243:19
financing 25:25
26:2,5 167:4,4
190:22 191:10
find 29:15,17
32:11 35:19
47:18 56:14
59:18 61:25
62:1,22 70:23
70:25 71:8
115:16 119:10
170:13 171:14
finding 136:25
fine 71:5,5 214:5
214:5 232:22
finish 141:4
firm 200:21
firms 90:12
first 12:24 21:19
23:3 32:8,13
33:17 37:10
50:25 61:18
62:18,20
63:19 64:24
68:16 80:16
85:16 97:20
99:13 107:15
118:14 130:3
143:12,20
146:20 165:21
170:5 194:19
200:18 221:13
221:15,21
222:16 237:7
fiscal 109:15
174:7,7,10
198:11
fit 34:8
fits 226:3
five 11:25 23:21
79:3 97:17,20
104:4,5
170:23 196:18
196:19
five-year 101:15
101:16 143:17
143:22 144:4
fix 111:18
fixed 37:3 95:11
fixing 37:7
flat 218:8,15
219:2
flavor 75:10
flexibility 56:24
flight 109:22
flood 23:12
115:3,5,16,17
123:7,8 166:21
flooded 95:6
123:9 129:23
flooding 18:25
20:10 23:12,12
23:12 26:21
28:6 34:25
35:4,9,22
36:5 40:22
49:10 51:3
54:5,9 55:5
55:13,14 58:16
67:6 69:3 71:9
87:5,18 93:22
93:23 94:2
105:22 106:6
111:19,20 115:8
121:20 122:8
123:7 126:21
128:15 129:16
129:22,25
147:9 150:8,12
151:11 166:14
178:11 180:12
198:20 234:11
234:21
floodplain
102:8
floodplains
35:7 58:21
floor 150:3
flow 35:6 69:25
70:4 112:24
113:1 132:5
flows 23:25
35:20,22 37:9
71:21 72:11
132:3
fly 118:10
flyover 109:21
116:2 120:6,7
flyovers 117:19
117:21,22 118:4
118:7,19
focus 76:20
191:2 208:5
focused 10:14
189:3
foliage 117:14
folks 34:17 118:1
133:11 139:11
167:15 173:23
220:24
233:25
follow 68:6
72:23 86:14
176:15 179:12
206:4,5
207:12
followed 81:20
following 11:7
13:12,22 15:4
20:8 39:10
241:12
follows 69:17
follow-up 38:13
117:3,16 144:21
165:20
foot 52:10
forceful 148:25
forecasting
206:22
foreclose
205:12
foregoing 18:22
foresee 49:8
foreseeable
19:22 20:5
forever 137:3
form 129:15
130:7,8
144:24 145:1,4
145:7
formalized
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
54:16
formally 52:21
181:9
formed 18:13
23:14
former 92:10
formula 131:6
206:8
formulas 126:5
formulated
151:20
formulating
197:17 198:6
forward 22:12
24:4 32:15
44:9 54:4
64:22 67:25
75:11,17 78:25
80:6 93:5
150:18 209:7
for-profit 31:3
found 86:20
98:24 114:19
169:23
four 11:22 25:5
40:7 55:24
104:4 128:1,17
128:17,22,23
129:9 196:20
four-bay 128:13
four-year 40:8
frankly 160:10
frequency
192:17
frequently
175:8
Friday 241:10
friends 151:13
front 21:21
65:24 103:10
157:23 169:14
190:19 194:20
197:13 210:15
FTE 156:12
FTEs 156:8
full 42:20 117:15
full-time 156:12
156:18 186:4
186:15 187:22
187:23
functioning
37:17
fund 19:17,25
39:25 40:3
49:6,7 50:15
50:15 65:11,12
65:14,15 66:8
77:20 111:17
112:18 114:3,3
163:12,22,25
164:14,23
165:3 167:13
168:21 185:21
187:6,7,9,10,18
187:20 202:10
202:19,20,22
202:23 205:4
funded 19:13
38:18 45:22
65:23 68:10
72:2 111:15
119:15,17
168:15 182:17
187:4
funding 19:14,21
20:4,12 28:10
36:7 49:19
59:24 62:4,9
66:11,14 68:2
69:20 77:6,24
105:22 106:5
106:8,9,19
107:6,7 108:1
113:12 153:4,5
153:12,14,19
157:5 163:7,10
180:22 189:4
189:6,9
190:23 191:7
191:18 205:6
funds 38:19
40:2,10,14
48:25 49:23
50:7,11 57:18
59:14 65:6,10
65:11,20 67:7
67:14,25 77:11
79:5 108:3,9
112:16 113:2
114:1,4,6,12
144:6 153:22
153:25 154:4
154:5,8,9,12
154:15,20,24
155:2,15,22
182:11 186:25
202:17 203:15
further 8:17 11:12
17:15 35:1
36:11 51:7
53:18 56:19
72:18 75:3
77:11 90:21,23
92:13,15
116:20 142:1
145:11 149:23
150:17 151:17
152:2 159:7,9
162:12 184:2
184:17 191:25
208:9 209:24
236:3,5 237:4
238:9 239:13
242:1,10
243:14,17
future 15:21
19:10,22 20:5
40:14 44:13
52:24 53:4
60:1 61:8 75:9
75:16,18 76:4
76:5,12 77:2
106:11 165:1
166:17 192:25
204:21 206:9
222:8 236:9
236:18 238:7
FY20 184:10,11
G
gain 220:22
gains 18:15
garage 122:18
garden 10:22
100:12 120:18
120:19,21,23
133:5,8 216:6
221:2 227:2,6
232:4 235:6
gardens 66:4
99:25 100:9
100:25 116:11
117:4 215:12
216:1 225:17
230:21 232:14
232:18
garner 234:7
gather 56:4
gathering
152:23
gauge 152:12
Gee 3:2 12:21
21:6 26:8
56:5,16 57:25
60:1 66:13
82:6 84:15
162:20,23
163:3 169:11
184:25 191:4
193:9 204:5
239:23
240:18
general 2:12
4:13 9:25
10:18 17:22
18:6 21:4
33:17 55:9
56:4 63:7,20
73:10,11 93:18
107:19 108:4,5
108:14,21
119:18 121:2
182:7,9
186:25 187:6
187:10,12
generalized
94:25
generally
135:12 151:23
151:25 161:8
189:8 210:20
210:23 232:9
232:16
generally-acc ...
198:24
generate 79:8
158:2,4 163:15
192:11 199:2
205:20
233:25
generated
178:8
generates 62:5
70:12 79:4
generating
160:4 175:15
generation
160:20
geotechnical
107:22 108:15
Gerald 5:10
getting 30:12
60:22 71:20
76:16 87:16
129:10 130:6
132:11 133:6
142:21 148:9
157:20 183:16
Gilbert 90:13,18
91:17,23 92:8
GIS 118:1
give 31:25 55:9
56:3,6 63:7
67:9 73:3,10,11
74:7 75:23,23
75:24 91:23
95:19 123:19
131:15 134:5
147:25 155:12
170:12 174:6
175:24 207:14
240:20
given 24:19
51:12 61:7
127:17 139:10
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
164:17 165:6
165:14 194:4
199:22
206:23 215:17
216:24 218:9
218:9 229:5
239:11
gives 83:21
85:25 133:13
giving 24:5
28:3 61:1
103:4 137:21
182:4,22
238:7
glance 143:21
go 7:18 21:20
23:22 29:6,8
29:14 31:24
33:11 35:12,20
36:11 37:16
38:3,4,7 39:6
39:22 53:2
55:6 58:18
59:22 60:3
62:6 63:13,15
64:22 78:8
81:4,5,17 93:13
96:24 97:7,9
97:11 100:1,18
107:14 110:19
112:1 119:5
120:3,7
126:20 127:11
141:10,15
142:21,25
145:23 146:9
146:18 150:23
152:6 153:4
157:22 160:23
173:18 175:15
184:21 189:1
211:23 221:13
221:17 230:5
231:12
goal 150:7
goes 62:18
64:24 119:3
182:6 184:6
191:1
going 8:8 25:2
25:18 29:21
33:7 34:14
35:6 38:12
42:22 46:12
49:23 50:18
52:3 53:12
54:13 55:5,9
56:22 57:4,17
57:18 59:18,18
60:12 62:15,16
63:8,12 67:9
73:4 75:12,17
81:4,5 82:15
84:23,24
86:12 96:25
99:24 100:1
100:25 103:12
103:20 107:16
109:20 115:11
116:7 117:11,17
117:20 121:2
123:15,19
126:9 133:4,7
133:19 138:16
141:13 142:5
143:1,2 144:6
145:19 146:11
147:18 149:10
150:23 151:2,4
151:6 154:22
157:4 164:4,11
164:16,22
165:1,2,17
168:10 173:9
173:13,16
175:13 176:12
178:9,12,18,24
180:11 183:10
186:24 187:1,5
187:5,6,8,11,12
187:22 188:14
190:11,11,17,20
193:17 197:7,8
199:18 201:25
205:8,19
206:25 207:2
207:11 215:20
221:17 222:3
232:3 235:8
241:6
good 6:1 17:21
18:5 21:23,24
27:3 32:25
33:1 56:8
80:8,9 82:16
93:7,8 99:11
99:12 101:9
113:15 123:4,4
139:4 142:9
153:20 163:4
182:9 188:5
189:9,12
193:20 197:12
210:13 214:19
214:20 215:18
221:17 224:17
226:5 232:20
234:7 235:19
Goss 2:9,10,14
2:19 3:3,13 5:9
6:17,17,18
62:25 63:1,4
64:7,25 72:20
72:21,22 73:8
73:21 75:2
90:24,25
92:12 121:12,13
140:25 141:2
179:6,7 184:1
221:12,13
226:11,12
236:2,4
Goss's 144:21
gotchya 75:20
gotten 145:16
179:25
Government
91:2,4 182:24
governmental
83:17 182:22
grand 172:7
grant 106:9
112:17 113:2
granted 12:17
grants 105:21
106:5,13
grasp 27:5
grass 33:25
grassy 34:6
gray 34:9,18
great 16:9 33:16
48:16 86:10
195:8 197:15
242:8,9
greater 10:21
61:16 174:19
233:9,13
greatly 103:1
green 35:20
69:8 70:8,13
71:1,25 94:16
112:11,15,21
113:2,7,11
139:19 140:1,12
223:18,24
224:15
grocery 146:5
ground 36:25
69:12 114:9
128:18 135:13
group 141:24
142:6 172:11
190:1 233:21
groups 175:25
grown 117:14
growth 86:16
87:3 208:7
guarantee
33:13 76:10
guess 27:25
39:1 46:23
47:25 49:3
71:17 78:19
79:7 86:22
88:17 110:10,10
117:21 125:11
125:14 143:17
161:21 211:19
212:24 216:4
222:4 223:13
225:12 233:11
guidance 33:9
guided 32:6
guys 73:3
H
half 78:20,21
102:15 167:22
168:9,11,11,12
168:13 215:25
half-hour 141:5
hand 73:3
167:22,24
240:11
handed 118:8
handle 145:19
236:12
handy 156:1
157:19
happen 41:24
43:20 49:8
93:21 153:10
202:3 207:1,2
222:14
happened
31:20 206:23
207:3 222:11
222:13
happening
223:5,11
happens 31:6
114:25 127:2
174:20 188:2
happy 194:7
hard 34:6
harvest 117:12
hat 222:21
Hawes 5:6 6:19
6:20 8:4,10
Hazelwood
105:8
head 118:21
132:6 133:2
201:22 203:8
204:7 205:1
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
205:22 211:17
225:16
235:25
healthy 67:25
hear 8:7 47:25
137:1 176:19
heard 18:11 60:1
61:24 134:8
176:21 215:11
221:19
hearing 17:11
21:16 119:3
167:22 243:6
243:9,16
hearings 14:10
143:5 241:19
Heather 149:19
heavy 68:21
161:23
held 13:4,15 14:1
70:21 243:7
Hello 9:13
82:24,25
163:3
help 23:7 33:8
64:17 105:21
106:5 108:16
108:24 148:23
151:13 158:5
159:23 177:19
186:14 203:19
236:18
helpful 44:25
134:22 161:16
helping 60:24
helps 42:14
72:8 109:1
Henrietta 3:11
12:22 21:7
135:4 207:11
207:22
209:21 210:6
238:13
hereto 243:18
hesitate 241:24
he'll 39:15,16
high 31:25
103:14 138:2
143:20 181:3
231:6,11,22
240:4
higher 55:10,11
55:13 63:15
94:7 144:5
181:4 182:23
183:3 205:21
highest 63:19
125:22 182:19
highly 152:9
highways 102:3
high-level 73:10
73:11
hire 108:24
hired 187:23
207:18
hires 156:10
157:2
historical
204:24,25
205:14 206:10
206:19
historically
152:14 164:1
206:13,23
207:3
hit 222:6
hits 34:3
Hoelscher 2:6
12:20 21:3,20
21:23,24 22:3
22:9 23:3
32:22,25
64:3 65:12
75:7 79:14,16
86:14 93:10
110:24 112:9,11
150:14 161:18
163:5 165:23
174:2 175:23
198:16
Hoelscher's
163:9
hold 71:1 105:25
141:6 207:9
holding 64:1
72:12
holds 41:15
home 93:23
94:4 180:12
232:4
Homebuilders
10:23
homeowner
100:13 115:14
118:22 119:4
126:10 145:7
145:15,24
162:3 205:18
216:23,25
230:10 231:19
231:24 235:7
homeowners
72:25 73:9,16
73:19 114:24
116:10 120:14
135:8,11 137:15
137:21 138:4
138:17 139:16
216:15,20
219:9 222:5
228:3,8,9,10
228:19,24
229:2,5,7,15
233:22
homes 100:19
honest 75:21
169:2 176:10
honestly 36:24
47:9
hope 97:8
103:15 160:16
177:14 235:10
hoped 136:25
hopefully 30:17
37:2 119:4
hoping 119:2
hours 15:1,12
house 34:5,5
63:13,15
145:16 164:24
167:13 205:12
houses 223:7
huge 208:3
hundreds 68:18
hypothetical
130:6 146:3
154:3,20
159:15 167:21
I
idea 67:23
137:14,21
138:3 147:25
ideal 35:8 143:6
ideally 230:7,11
230:12
identi 109:16
identification
122:5 186:9
identified 25:11
27:10 29:3
32:12 65:9
68:7 95:1
96:20 109:15
121:25 158:11
188:8 214:8
identifies
166:12
identify 7:18
32:13 37:2,2
48:5 53:22
190:15 198:13
227:1,4
identifying
29:22 37:6
illegal 88:17,22
89:9,19
illustrate 159:19
159:23 161:4
imagine 52:25
immediate
40:14 59:20
impact 25:9,20
34:22 35:22
35:23 38:4
45:25 46:1
47:20 56:7
75:8 93:23
102:12 115:21
123:10,11
126:18,18
132:2 139:2
140:4 144:22
149:1 164:4
168:7 183:18
199:9,21
204:9 208:5
239:25 240:5
impacted 51:4
67:6 98:3
129:18,19,25
130:2 196:2
208:7
impactful
102:14
impacting 62:14
78:5 239:20
impacts 72:13
98:1,2,20
148:20 199:1
impair 11:22
impairs 82:8
impermeable
85:6
impervious
20:22 33:19
34:13,22
35:16 36:4
51:6,13,20,22
52:10 89:15
100:21 102:1,4
110:8 113:9
114:8 115:20
115:23 116:1
118:13,15 119:7
121:8 131:13,14
142:12 158:3
174:19,21,23
178:4,15,16,23
198:23 199:1,5
199:11,12,21
200:6,13,25
201:9,11,19,23
201:24 202:5
202:13,15
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
206:9,11,12,19
207:7 208:2,7
210:20 211:2
211:24 212:8
214:23 215:22
216:17,19
217:7,9,18,20
218:1 220:1
221:22 222:1
222:3,19
223:2,10,14,15
223:17,22
224:6 227:19
236:11,15
237:1,8
implement
71:25 77:14
132:14 151:4
156:16 173:1,17
178:3 181:20
186:5 187:23
191:20
implementati...
67:2 116:3
135:23 184:7
185:6 191:10
implemented
122:1 186:23
235:21 236:18
implementing
69:8
important 19:1
27:5 47:19
50:5,21 75:16
117:17 160:15
161:3 190:23
imposed 24:20
87:16
imposes 11:25
20:19
imposing 42:12
improve 74:4
improved
138:23 201:9
improvement
26:1,13 77:10
111:5 124:24
136:11 138:16
170:7 236:13
237:23
improvements
23:5,9 40:22
104:20,23,25
106:18 110:25
158:20,21
191:11 199:14
199:16
inaccurate
239:6
incentive 66:1,6
99:14 100:5
101:12 120:17
131:3 133:14,16
135:6 147:24
148:24 149:3
149:6 172:1
215:9,10,24
221:20
224:20
225:22 226:2
226:6 230:25
231:4,15 233:7
233:8,24
234:6,17
235:8
incentives
100:22 101:7
147:19 148:19
191:1 203:22
207:8 215:17
216:15,19
225:9
incentivize
133:5,7 149:5
222:13
incentivizes
148:1
include 41:13
47:21 54:16
66:1 67:19
109:19 169:22
172:22 217:22
224:15
included 19:9
98:22 107:24
172:21 173:19
185:5,9 201:10
201:20 203:19
213:21 217:20
219:13,15
includes 69:7
210:19 224:5
including 10:13
57:3 191:8
income 42:20
inconsistency
168:4
incorporate
128:12 148:19
incorporated
10:24 73:24
94:16 136:9
incorrect 57:8
increase 24:15
24:18 37:19
37:25 44:8
116:18 120:1
128:17,19,22
130:2 133:22
134:1 152:5
157:16 160:13
167:7 203:4
203:10
204:20,22,23
205:2 206:12
223:10
increased 51:5
178:11 206:13
increases 24:19
55:24 165:3
207:9 236:10
240:3
increasing
24:22
incremental
185:5,8
incur 199:18
incurred 174:13
indebtedness
11:21 82:2
indenture
73:22
indentures
228:1
indicate 39:7
59:13 188:6
211:15
indicated 29:10
43:17 51:18
80:19 194:3
200:24 211:7
215:10
indicates 81:10
145:1 214:7
indicating
56:23 61:5
indicator 240:7
indicators
240:11
indirectly
148:23
individual
25:20 26:21
48:14 52:4
60:23 107:8
113:3 120:14
121:3 123:15
131:8 133:24
136:1 138:17
199:24 216:25
226:2 233:21
individually
139:3
individuals
23:2 27:1
31:16 42:19,25
74:6 173:14
174:25 181:23
234:25
induce 133:23
Industrial 4:12
11:1 12:16 14:17
22:9,23 80:3
industry 96:3
202:13
208:24 215:11
216:4 224:21
infiltrated 69:12
inflation 143:24
169:20,21
170:2,6,20,22
171:5 176:25
177:1,6
inflationary
144:5
influence
229:18
information
47:11,16 66:20
117:23 118:6
137:19 140:11
144:24 145:6
151:19 152:8
152:23 161:5
161:14 172:15
177:22 194:2
196:24 227:13
239:12 240:15
informational
76:7
informed 17:8
infrastructure
35:21 39:8
69:9 70:8,13
71:25 97:2
111:11 112:11,15
112:21 113:3,5
113:8,11 139:19
140:1 228:17
initial 28:10
121:21 142:1
initially 148:8
initiation 157:4
injected 153:25
inlet 28:6 58:17
95:12
inlets 36:18
37:8 41:5
62:11 97:3
111:12
inline 234:10
input 32:4
52:25 53:6
145:8 160:4
inquire 65:5
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insignificant
201:19 217:18
inspect 101:8
inspecting
116:12
inspection
137:18 157:13
inspections
101:16
Inspector 160:7
160:8,9
install 128:23
installation 38:1
221:2 225:19
installed 138:7
230:3,21
231:18
installing 35:23
225:17
instance 29:21
38:23 44:2
52:8 67:17
76:15 123:20
163:16 170:21
173:8 192:20
209:1 216:6
240:3
instances 115:16
institute 133:20
integrated 191:3
integrity 36:20
intended 97:8
intending 30:4
intent 120:17,18
intention 31:2
interest 11:7
163:19 164:16
165:22
interested 10:12
220:11 221:19
227:24
243:19
interesting
117:6
internal 50:11
108:22 114:20
156:8 158:15
159:3
internally 49:22
50:12 145:2
160:6
internet 142:22
interpretation
195:15
interrupt 9:3
intersection
129:19
intervene 12:14
12:15 14:8
intervener 13:10
interveners
13:13,20,23
14:6 15:8
interview 95:5
invariably 23:17
79:2
invest 181:5
invested 154:6
investigating
36:16
investigation
37:2,10 59:23
investment
231:19,25
232:3
invite 184:12
involve 41:1
166:17 182:11
involved 45:2
60:24 116:6
122:23,25
137:25 153:6
181:17 200:19
213:15
involves 19:12
45:18 68:9
97:2
involving 40:23
45:5
in-house 118:16
118:17
irrelevant 69:15
issuance 12:8
issue 12:5
24:24 26:25
27:1,4,7,20
30:19,19 31:22
36:6 48:3
51:16 60:18,18
60:19 62:15
67:18 70:10,14
70:16,17,22
71:5,21 76:1
77:3,25 91:3
93:18 94:25
95:1 97:1
122:10 123:5
126:14 127:14
142:3 147:4,11
147:13 150:24
150:25 151:1,9
161:17 163:18
163:21 165:1,19
167:11,11 176:11
178:11 180:17
181:14 191:17
issued 11:7
90:10 106:10
174:18
issues 10:14,14
10:15 18:25
19:12,17 20:11
24:3 26:19
27:12,15,18
29:2,9,11,13,16
30:5,12 34:18
34:25 35:10
40:22 45:5
46:17 49:10
49:22 54:15
54:18,22,24
60:15 61:24
62:5 64:22
68:9 70:18
71:10,12 72:7
80:19 91:23
98:8,15,17
103:1 106:23
107:2,3,9,10
107:10 108:18
121:24 122:13
123:2 126:20
150:15,16
151:2,14 155:13
159:24 163:7
164:7 165:5
176:6 178:10
178:25 193:4
198:21 236:24
238:19,22
issuing 163:12
167:12
item 7:22 8:5
76:18 158:6,18
186:11
items 36:21
161:7 186:13
iteration 122:25
it'd 75:16 120:8
142:20 145:23
232:2
J
J 4:3 63:22
64:6 74:15
130:14,16
job 234:7
John 5:5
join 17:3,4
joints 36:22
Jones 5:5 6:21
journal 117:5,5
judged 44:4
judgment 25:19
26:25 34:15
45:13 89:10
152:17 196:23
June 12:4 14:12
jurisdiction
225:14
jurisdictions
218:3,4,7,14
219:25
Justice 45:14
justification
46:11,12
K
K 63:22 64:6,8
keep 20:8 115:11
146:16 156:19
222:20
230:10
keeping 46:5
keeps 240:3
Kennard 5:5
Kentucky
213:25
kind 23:15 25:2
27:22 30:23
35:2 36:5,6
37:5 38:4,7
43:15 44:18
50:17 61:23
65:21 71:3
77:22 78:18
85:11 94:24
98:10 106:21
111:4,19 112:5,9
124:24 126:5
142:10 143:20
144:4 146:18
148:13 163:18
164:21 165:3
168:19 170:2
175:25 181:17
182:20 183:15
190:12 192:10
193:1 195:14
195:22 196:7
196:10 198:17
223:16,24,25
225:16 226:3
227:15 228:5
231:4,6
233:22
kinds 148:17
231:12 235:14
knock 119:25
knocking 155:11
know 22:15
26:2,23 28:11
31:1 33:4,12
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44:23 46:24
49:21 52:5
53:1 54:8
55:10 60:17
61:15,16 62:8
67:25 71:5
73:8,11 77:6,19
78:1,2 84:23
84:24 91:9,10
96:8,23 97:14
98:8,17 104:2
107:17 110:11
115:17 116:4,7
118:21 120:3
124:8 125:4,8
125:9 126:4
129:5 131:15
132:4,6,25
133:2 134:23
137:17,18,20
139:24 140:8
140:14 143:18
143:21 147:6
147:20 148:15
149:18 150:14
150:15 151:25
152:13 160:5
167:5 168:12
168:24 175:24
177:22 181:8
183:23 192:11
193:24 195:18
195:22,23
196:3,9,21,23
198:14,15
199:20 204:6
205:11 207:15
209:2 211:5
214:24 215:25
216:9,21 217:9
217:11 218:17
218:23,24
219:14 220:8
220:17,18,24
220:25 221:1
222:11,18,20
222:24 223:1
223:21,23,25
224:3,3
225:25 226:1
226:5 229:7
229:21 230:13
230:25
231:22 232:1
232:16 233:14
237:24,24
239:18,19
knowing 49:23
182:2
knowledge
176:15,16,18
211:3 216:17
knowledgeable
64:14
known 26:18
27:15,18 30:1
54:11 96:21
97:18 99:22
118:9
L
L 1:19 2:6,15 5:5
12:20,21
243:3,24
labor 10:14,21
158:8,15,18,21
158:25 173:24
186:11,12 188:9
188:21
lack 31:8 106:19
152:4 153:14
153:19
Ladue 10:25
Lance 75:23
large 26:20,20
26:20 69:24
69:25 71:23
95:13 98:7
116:18 134:3,10
142:6 163:22
166:3
larger 30:3
98:13 102:13
126:18,24,24
127:13 131:13
131:13 134:5
largest 25:7,7,9
Lashly 4:3 13:11
14:23
latest 240:21
law 4:2,3,7,8
11:16 76:24
80:19,22 83:9
83:14 90:12
167:20 195:25
196:6
laws 11:24
80:20 82:10
92:3 205:11
lawyers 147:3
lead 53:7
leads 75:12
205:16
League 10:19
10:22
leave 38:12
52:13 56:16
62:19
led 213:14
legal 6:6 13:11
13:21 14:7,23
15:6,8 23:4
29:23 44:2
86:2,7,15
87:25 89:18
91:19,24 92:3
211:4,7,8
228:15
legally 43:16
legitimate
26:25
Lemoine 14:21
241:11
Len 9:19
lend 62:9
lengthier 29:6
Leonard 5:7
letters 127:24
letting 44:13
let's 23:10
34:20 36:11,12
38:7 40:17
42:9 83:24,24
99:13 103:16
107:14 119:24
146:5 148:8
163:25 165:10
175:12
level 27:7,25
29:1 31:25
38:5 51:3,3
77:14 120:3
137:5 153:8
197:20 198:11
198:19 239:24
240:4
levels 27:11
160:21 164:13
235:22
levied 83:17
levy 38:8 88:4
103:16,18
104:5,7,10,20
104:22 105:3
105:8,18
lieu 72:9 152:25
life 96:22 97:4
97:11
lifespan 30:2
limit 55:6
limited 41:21
99:25 191:8
226:6
line 24:21 30:16
43:3 71:6 111:4
111:4,12 158:6
158:17 171:25
186:11 207:9
213:5 236:20
lineal 129:3
lines 34:21
40:19 42:10
77:15 85:15
109:22 240:16
lining 36:19
link 47:10
liquidate
203:14
liquidations
203:13
Lisa 4:2 14:22
242:5
list 27:9 29:19
30:8,9 32:11
40:5,5,12
41:18 54:20
64:21 97:15
107:3,25
108:18 115:15
159:17 161:21
237:22
240:22
listed 64:23
103:25 104:2
166:22,23
184:14 186:13
listing 166:11
172:4
lists 108:1
166:13
litigation 1:19
89:14 220:23
little 29:20
30:10 35:1
36:11,12,13
38:3 40:24,25
41:1 42:9 43:9
45:3,7 46:23
47:15 49:3
51:25 54:19
56:19 62:3
63:6 71:4
77:17 83:24
86:15 99:18
106:19 110:23
111:1 119:1
121:14 148:16
150:15 151:17
170:3 172:10
179:12 197:8
206:5 207:14
211:6 217:15
218:1 236:8
237:18
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Lloyd 5:10 9:14
149:25
LLP 4:8
load 168:1
local 23:19
68:20
localized 23:12
62:2
located 61:25
62:22 102:7
139:2
location 112:25
locations 69:11
Locklear 3:11
12:22 21:7
135:4 148:15
193:19 207:11
207:22 210:6
214:19 238:14
Locklear's
147:22
Locust 4:4
long 78:5,10
97:11,15 136:5
139:25 140:5
150:10,21
153:15 239:15
longer 29:15
34:6 60:25
117:15 129:5
145:19 170:19
186:24 187:11
long-term 69:7
70:20 164:15
look 25:5 30:15
34:17,20
39:16 40:1,17
45:10 46:4
50:6 61:22
68:16 81:16
93:15,16,18,19
93:20 95:16
102:20 107:2
109:13 120:7
120:25 122:4
122:6,7 126:16
127:4,7 130:5
130:14 131:17
142:25 149:6
158:5 160:10
163:14,23
164:1 166:3,6
169:1,25
170:19,21
174:12 180:15
181:16,17
182:10,20
183:18 184:12
192:25 195:9
206:19,22,24
209:14 211:22
212:11 214:3,4
224:8 240:12
looked 117:11
147:20 161:21
164:4,21
166:14,15 171:9
172:12 173:5
192:16 204:25
206:10 209:6
236:11
looking 24:4
28:18 54:3
71:9 85:3 96:8
96:16,17 97:4
100:4 104:1
106:23 107:4
121:19 124:1
126:10 143:24
148:16 150:19
150:20 157:21
158:9,10,23
165:15 177:22
185:16 192:8
210:14 224:4
looks 30:10
67:16 206:8
lose 53:2,4,5
lot 29:10,13
34:18 35:7
38:19 41:15
53:1 54:9 61:3
62:7 77:4
98:25 99:1
102:14,17
107:2 112:19
115:16 117:8,9
117:13,14 120:4
129:13,18
133:10 135:5
136:23 138:11
144:6,6 160:7
160:10 167:23
175:22 182:6
196:3,6
202:25
207:19 208:2
218:4 222:24
222:25
225:19
lots 129:18,24
130:1 208:3
211:1 216:25
222:10
Louis 1:2,21 4:4
4:10,14,15,16
6:3 9:20,23
9:23 10:19,20
10:21,23 11:1
14:14 18:6
23:22 62:11
113:24 114:5
119:25 136:8
181:21 207:1,2
207:3 228:6
243:8,9
low 42:19
103:14 180:1
208:5 231:6,11
235:7
lower 55:10
63:13 181:4
205:21
low-impact
101:20
low-income
102:11
lstump@lashl...
4:5
lunch 17:9
92:22 113:20
141:3,5,8,9
Lutheran 10:19
M
M 4:13 12:20,21
magical 240:2
240:8
Mahanta 2:8,19
5:9 6:23 17:4
60:7,8 61:10
120:11,12
121:10
Mahfood 2:21
3:8,12 5:8
6:25 147:16,17
149:21,22
197:25 206:2
206:3 208:8
221:12,13,14,16
226:8,10
242:3,4,9
mail 192:11
main 38:17
maintain 34:23
36:20 48:8
58:22 112:6
113:12 158:3
160:14 229:1,2
229:8 230:14
maintained
38:22,23
41:10,16,17
58:10,23
59:17 68:4
100:9,14
112:13 136:7
216:24 219:9
230:14
maintaining
73:23 74:4
111:15 116:11
137:15 138:14
216:17 229:6
maintenance
11:9 19:24 20:1
35:24 36:7
37:16 38:9,16
38:18 39:3,7,9
39:11,25 40:11
40:13 42:2
47:2 48:10
60:2 61:15
100:12 101:14
104:7 110:25
111:3,5,9,16
113:4,6 145:17
229:23 230:2
major 23:21
46:11
majority 25:3
112:15 164:5,18
212:7,19 213:9
making 60:19
95:14 142:18
Malone 3:7,12
4:3 6:8,11,13
6:15,17,19,21
6:23,25 7:2,4
7:6,8,10,12,14
14:22 197:8,10
197:11 198:4
204:12,14
214:17,18
221:7
manage 101:1
156:4
managed 158:1
management
191:3
mandated
58:14
manholes 41:6
manual 227:23
map 61:24
107:10
March 7:23 8:18
12:23,25 13:1
13:3 109:23
171:17
Marion 3:2
12:21 21:6
52:5 56:5,16
57:25 82:6
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144:1,10,14
162:19 184:6
198:16 203:8
239:22
Mark 5:7
Market 4:14
243:8
materials
190:15 213:21
230:23
matrix 126:1
matter 174:17
189:5
matters 15:13
17:2,13,16
mean 39:13
43:12,12 45:4
48:16 49:13
50:17 55:5
61:6 62:14
87:12 105:16
116:14 125:5,12
126:19 127:24
129:14 134:3
137:2 139:25
140:3 144:3
149:12 154:2
167:22 208:1
208:2 218:19
219:1 220:10
223:6 228:2
230:10,11
232:22
234:12,15
meaning 164:9
223:14
meaningful
134:16,22
means 57:9
196:11 214:24
meant 70:5
72:5 129:20
measure 27:3
35:8 133:12
measured
103:8 142:13
measurement
20:22
measuring 52:9
85:4,5 178:6
mechanism
36:10 67:16
mechanisms
49:25 50:8,9
54:14 223:25
media 241:21
meet 45:15,16
168:18 183:1
meeting 1:1 6:2
7:24 28:15
140:15 241:16
241:18 242:22
meetings 76:7
meets 81:11
196:14
member 22:2
162:22
members 13:9
13:19 14:5 15:4
memo 44:20
44:25 46:14
48:16 68:7
memory 227:10
mention 103:21
107:11
mentioned
48:24 52:19
54:2 55:1 57:1
59:7 62:1
63:2,4 70:18
70:20 106:21
114:16 116:9
127:16 153:16
160:3 174:1
180:8 182:1
183:13 226:13
226:19,21,25
227:1 228:18
Meramec 23:23
metal 37:14,14
method 20:22
115:20 181:13
224:5
methodologies
149:14
methodology
36:7 96:3,6
122:2 127:10
162:3 178:14
213:10,19,20
224:5
Metro 10:22
Metropolitan
1:2 4:9,14,16
6:3 9:20 14:14
18:6 243:7
Michigan 196:4
Mickey 5:4
microphone
22:15 141:22
middle 89:13
131:22
MIEC 200:15
241:12
miles 18:13
150:13
milestones
45:17
million 18:12
26:14,24 27:9
27:14 30:16,17
32:9 40:7
54:24 60:15
60:16 65:9
66:17 69:8
71:24 107:3
134:7 150:11,17
150:22 151:5
151:18 152:11
153:3 156:16
158:19,25
163:24,25,25
164:2,3 167:21
168:6,14,16
174:8,9,10,12
174:13,14
179:10 197:22
198:12
mind 20:8 31:18
35:12 46:6,24
115:11 140:24
144:9 146:16
154:15 156:20
215:2
minds 76:23
mine 83:1
146:14
minimal 66:20
105:12 151:19
152:8 225:12
minimize 103:1
160:12
minimum 49:6
50:15 116:6
120:24 168:20
168:21 216:7,11
Minnesota
225:15 226:21
227:7
minor 116:17
minute 34:20
44:19 103:17
174:1
minutes 7:23
7:24 8:6,9,13
8:17 28:18
99:13
miscellaneous
122:19
mischaracteri ...
127:18
missed 108:7
mission 135:7
Mississippi
23:24 72:6,7
72:14,15 114:7
114:11
Missouri 4:12
10:19,21,24 11:1
12:16 14:17
18:13,15 22:9
22:23 23:23
80:3 86:16
87:3 88:16
105:7 106:9
196:1,4,5 215:1
215:5 243:6,9
mistaken 24:25
misunderstand
227:16
mitigate 72:8
98:20
mitigating 72:13
mix 26:1 52:8
58:24 69:21
70:7 78:18
190:23
mixed 78:17
Mm-hmm 211:10
MO 1:21 4:4,10
4:15
model 57:16
125:8,19 126:8
126:11 127:1
204:19
moderate 68:21
modified
213:20
MoDOT 77:5,5
77:6 79:6,7
181:21
MoDOT's 77:11
moment 170:13
177:3,6 227:10
moments
200:2 214:22
Monday 194:5,8
241:9 242:7
monetary
122:13
money 39:20
54:9 60:5
61:7 134:18
161:24 164:10
165:15 167:16
167:23 180:19
180:25 182:7
182:15,16,23
183:9,12
192:22
237:24,25
monies 164:14
monitor 106:7
106:12
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164:18 218:9
monthly 174:16
175:5
months 49:18
61:8 170:8
month's 118:3
morning 6:1
17:21 18:5
21:23,24
32:25 33:1
54:2 80:8,9
93:7,8,10
99:11,12 194:9
242:7
motion 7:24 8:2
8:3,6,12,21,25
16:7,13,15,22
242:12,12,16
Mound 10:23
move 16:10
21:20 32:15
44:9 50:10
75:11 78:4,25
150:17 161:9
205:12 209:7
238:20 239:3
moved 7:25
8:14 61:8
242:14
movement
161:9,10
moves 36:25
36:25
moving 49:18
193:14
MSD 18:11,13,14
18:16,18 19:1,7
21:3,4,5,6,12
22:25 23:4,8
23:14,15,21
24:3,4,5,5,17
25:12,18,25
26:23 28:24
29:4,5 30:4
30:25 31:5,9
31:15,19 41:10
41:17 42:18
43:8,11,22
44:14,20 53:3
54:4,15,21
55:25 56:10
63:24 66:13
67:20,22,25
68:8 73:17
78:4 79:5
80:22 81:12,16
81:22 82:5,14
82:14 84:10,10
85:17 86:9
87:11 89:13
91:25 96:4,5
107:1 112:6
117:2,19 122:2
124:10,12,20
126:1,5,9
130:9,21 131:7
131:11,16
137:20 138:24
139:5 141:20
141:23 142:8
155:13 157:19
163:7,16 165:6
165:18,25
166:5,9,17,23
167:4 170:18
170:19 171:19
174:5 175:11
180:19 181:20
183:2,8 185:2
185:11 186:16
186:17,20,21
186:25 191:5
191:16,19
202:17 212:4
212:11 213:21
213:22 215:13
229:23
239:25 243:6
MSD's 19:17,25
21:2 23:11
24:24 31:17
34:23 39:5,6
42:16 44:5
67:11,19 68:4
69:7 78:22
130:8 142:13
168:24 213:21
215:10 224:20
232:13
MSD-owned
38:25
MS4 231:17
mulch 117:15
multiple 122:4
127:5 143:18
143:19
multitude 123:1
124:2
multitudes
126:21
multiyear 59:22
municipal 10:19
23:20 195:16
195:18 208:23
209:14 231:16
municipalities
24:4 27:13
54:3,8,14,21
58:22 67:5
76:16 77:7
124:12,13 155:1
181:24 220:7
220:21
municipality
54:10 67:14,17
77:9,23 78:20
115:8 220:14
Myers 2:3,12
4:13 12:20
14:15,15 17:16
17:18,20,21,22
18:4,5 21:13,16
21:19 22:14
24:8 38:13
79:13,15,22
79:24 80:3
82:21 90:5,9
90:23 92:14
92:15,16,18,20
162:12,14,17,19
171:20,22
177:19,22
193:10,12,16
193:20 194:11
194:13 210:1,3
210:6 238:11
238:12,25
239:1,2,5,9,15
239:22 241:1
241:3,4
N
N 1:20 2:1 3:1,1,1
nail 160:25
name 9:2,13,19
10:8 17:21 18:5
22:22 225:15
227:10
names 7:20
118:19
natural 41:14
111:21,22 112:2
112:4
nature 36:13
66:19 97:8
151:20 152:7
near 53:4,4
195:9 238:7
nearest 103:8
necessarily
26:23 37:13
112:5 120:21
148:18 166:22
167:9 168:11
183:7,17
necessary 11:6
36:20 44:18
95:23 186:5
need 23:11 37:3
41:9 50:21
60:5,11 61:17
65:19 69:17
76:19 77:10
87:24 109:14
112:6 120:16
142:17 156:4
156:17 165:21
167:3 181:7,16
186:14,19
199:15 209:2
239:25
needed 39:24
40:12 50:7,23
108:3
needs 21:2
38:5 49:14
60:2 69:19
126:25 149:9
153:20 178:7
199:13,23
226:3
negative
239:25
neighborhood
10:15
neighbors
151:14 180:13
neither 243:14
nervousness
227:9
Neuschafer 2:6
2:13,16 3:2,7
3:11 4:7 14:18
14:18 22:8,11
22:19,20,21
22:22 32:18
32:20 43:10
80:2,5,7
82:19 83:1
93:2,4,6 96:2
99:4,6 162:25
163:1,2 169:8
169:10 194:15
194:17,18
197:2,4 210:8
210:10,12
214:13,16
Neuschafer's
75:8
never 79:4,4
88:18,24 89:1
89:17 97:9
115:3,7 153:10
new 18:24 20:9
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29:14 30:5,5
37:20 48:6
52:18 83:18
98:21 101:5
104:12 110:5
111:17 116:2,16
118:7 138:8
145:17,23
146:5,15
156:10 157:2,9
173:1 175:7
185:8 187:22
209:2,5
236:19
News 170:9
nine 14:10 61:8
nonprofit 10:16
92:4
nonprofits
88:20
nonpublic 41:21
non-pervious
34:1
non-profits
237:9,10
non-required
120:19
non-residential
219:19
non-wastewa...
174:18,20,22
Nope 92:16
105:24
normally 28:24
29:5
norms 215:11
224:21
north 4:9 10:24
23:22 227:12
Northeast
217:13 220:20
222:21 226:18
228:18
notarized 15:18
15:24 16:14
note 40:19
46:18 68:15
69:6 121:5
144:8
noted 77:1
224:20
notes 243:13
notice 11:3 12:3
12:5
noticed 194:22
194:24 224:19
notify 120:16
143:6
not-for-profit
116:25
not-for-profits
31:3 57:1,19
November 9:25
number 11:6,8,9
11:15,17,19,22
11:25 24:19
26:17,18
30:22 55:12
55:13 62:11
63:18 65:10
66:18 96:20
97:25 103:1
106:15 116:15
123:15 127:8
128:2,22
129:23 139:23
143:16,20
144:4 151:12
163:13 164:7
169:4 170:8
172:2,3,13,17
173:6,6
186:24 204:6
212:21 213:18
216:9 231:11
239:11 240:2
240:8,9,10
numbers 29:25
30:1 59:25
122:22 123:17
134:11 137:17
138:5 170:3
185:25 194:24
numerous 88:17
88:23
O
O 3:1
objective 160:11
189:24 190:6
objectivity
160:13
obligated
202:22 203:1
obligation 23:4
104:20 105:4
203:10
obligations
46:22
obtain 182:7
obtained 170:7
172:4
obvious 117:11
135:17
obviously 97:9
98:20 111:22
111:25 119:14
126:22 135:11
143:11 146:22
146:25 173:8
178:8 192:23
occupied
201:10 217:19
217:23
occur 31:11 44:6
44:15 76:12
93:20 97:9
123:10 184:12
occurred 77:14
occurring 44:13
76:12
occurs 44:2
93:23
offer 47:10 79:1
134:17 224:25
offering 117:16
134:20,21
offerings 66:9
officers 191:17
official 126:9
oftentimes
60:22
oh 74:16 106:3
174:4 177:9
215:23 224:8
229:21
Ohio 217:13,14
220:21 222:21
226:18 228:19
okay 23:7 26:11
27:14,19
28:23 30:21
30:24 32:18
33:10 34:19
37:23 38:6,14
39:12,17 40:16
40:16 42:8
44:19,19 45:6
46:14 48:23
50:24,25
51:14 52:7,15
52:17 54:25
55:18 57:4,16
58:2 59:6
64:11,25 75:2
79:10 81:3,15
81:21,23,24
82:7,17 84:8
84:16,23 85:5
85:15 86:11
88:2,14 89:5
89:24 90:2
92:12 96:2,18
97:14 99:4,17
102:22 103:16
103:22 105:16
106:15 107:18
107:18,21
108:19 109:3
109:20 110:22
110:23 118:20
119:19 121:10
121:18 122:15
122:17 125:20
125:24 126:4
126:15 128:1
128:16 129:1,8
130:17 131:22
135:1 142:9
143:8 144:1,3,7
144:13 146:2
147:14 148:12
149:21 156:2
157:21 162:7
165:20 169:5
170:17 171:4
171:20,22,24
172:21 173:25
175:3,21 177:2
177:12,17,20
178:2 179:1,12
185:18 186:14
190:11 195:4,8
196:12 197:2
198:22 199:10
199:19 200:9
200:14 201:8
201:14,18
202:2 204:12
205:7 206:14
207:13 208:19
211:7,18 212:6
212:11,22
213:4,12,17,21
214:13,15
215:3,5,8,20
215:23 216:4
216:13 217:25
218:3,7,13
219:4,14,17,21
221:7 222:17
224:10,14,17
226:8 227:8
227:20 228:11
228:14,23
230:8 231:3,8
231:14 234:12
235:11,20
236:23 237:3
237:19 238:8
old 61:14 77:19
77:20,20
103:7 113:25
older 146:9
147:8
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OMCI 65:11
107:8 156:23
omitted 194:23
once 69:21 70:7
109:12,12
ones 30:14
101:23 110:20
166:19 194:24
215:2 223:12
one-half 43:1
130:22
one-time 132:10
147:24,25
148:1 225:5
ongoing 61:15
61:16 62:7
100:10 147:23
166:1 203:5
207:8 209:10
225:1,6
online 212:13
213:1
on-the-record
14:10
open 36:22
62:12 146:12
opening 2:3
17:17,20,24
18:10 21:10,11
21:14 24:8
28:15
operate 34:23
48:8 178:2
209:4
operated 58:23
operating 101:9
111:14 119:18
157:25 186:25
187:12
operation 10:13
11:9 18:14
19:23 20:1
35:24 36:7
37:16 38:9,15
38:17 39:3,9
39:25 40:11,12
42:2 47:2
48:9 60:2
88:5 110:24
111:9,15 158:7
operational
14:24 15:17
16:1 104:6
operations
59:19 141:24
158:10,11
186:10 188:10
209:9
operator 209:11
opinion 20:18
44:14 83:12
86:3,7,17 89:7
89:9,18 90:10
90:11,14,17,18
91:17,18,23,25
92:3,5,7,10
134:14 138:22
139:6,8,21
153:24 171:11
175:17 181:12
183:20 211:9
226:7 231:10
233:3 234:2
235:11,18
opinions 85:22
91:19 235:13
opportunity
12:13 13:8 18:9
22:24 23:1
24:5 45:10
66:2 78:15
112:20 133:13
146:23 150:1
176:13
opposed 8:23
16:20 122:16
122:19 132:11
132:15 148:14
183:14 188:9
206:20 229:8
229:11 234:13
242:19
options 49:16
209:6
order 6:4 8:7
16:7 21:2 24:2
32:12 39:25
44:16 47:6
48:19 76:19
77:11 95:3
100:7 132:1
147:12 153:2
156:15 167:8
182:4 190:6
191:17
organizations
10:7,10,12,13
10:16,16 92:5
orientation 18:11
original 45:9
156:23
originally 57:7
69:24
originate 71:16
71:17
Orleans 209:5
outcome 89:14
outlay 132:17,19
148:5
outlines 80:15
outside 53:9
67:13 68:2
76:7 89:18
90:12,15
107:12 108:24
162:5
outstanding
11:21 82:2
239:6,9,16
outweigh 224:1
overall 25:12
30:3 47:21
64:18,21 93:17
179:15 223:10
overflow 68:24
69:19 70:2
71:3,3 72:5,8
overflowing
113:1
overflows
69:23 70:10
70:15 72:13
114:11
overview 215:17
over-allocate
203:12,16
owing 223:23
owned 58:10
135:25 165:25
166:5,9,9
owner 87:15
118:22 120:8
145:18
owners 29:14
29:15 62:7
67:5 74:1 95:6
113:3 120:14
121:4 136:1
139:16 140:9
142:14 154:25
155:1
ownership
163:19 165:22
166:18,23
O&M 20:13
35:17 36:12
37:18 39:20
42:1 46:17
47:10 48:3
59:1,9 65:12
87:6,21 88:19
88:24 89:1
91:10 166:1
o'clock 6:2
P
pace 183:5
224:1
packet 195:5
pad 202:4
page 34:21
40:18 42:10
51:1,9 69:6
83:3 88:15
99:15 102:24
105:20,24
106:17 127:7
156:1 157:17,18
171:14,24
174:16 185:2
185:13,19 191:5
212:11,16 214:3
214:7,12
224:9 228:13
paid 65:14
70:16,22
72:16 104:17
186:21,25
187:6,7,8,10,11
187:13,17,19
Palans 2:10,14
2:21 3:4 5:10
7:2 9:13,14,17
65:3,4,7 72:17
72:19 77:4
90:6,7,8,20
90:22 91:16
112:10 149:24
149:25 150:4
150:5 159:6,8
160:23 163:6
184:19,20,22
184:24 185:17
185:18 191:24
192:1
Pamela 14:20
papers 30:4
parcel 102:13
parking 41:15
117:8,12 208:3
222:10
part 19:3,6,20
20:3 32:14
37:10,15 38:17
40:5 43:11
46:14,19 47:10
47:13 48:12
50:18 52:21
53:15,17 54:10
56:12 57:5
60:10 63:24
67:19 71:23
76:2 77:21
84:25 94:12
95:14 100:15
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127:10 128:7
137:18 138:23
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165:3 195:3
202:16 203:12
203:18
224:25
partials 217:17
participants
15:3,6 212:13
212:20,24
participate 14:9
78:3 149:17
179:9 235:9
participated
212:20 234:18
participating
9:14 54:4
172:13
participation
172:5 204:9
231:6,21,23
233:5,10,12,14
234:4,7,24
particular 24:21
28:2 47:15
50:5 60:14
62:15 80:12
84:12 96:13
109:17 126:9,11
127:12 130:23
157:5 163:12
163:19 165:19
166:15 178:16
182:16 188:8
188:16 199:6
208:20 212:17
212:18 213:3
216:5,22
218:20
225:23,25
229:6 234:6
particularly 45:1
115:15 134:4
148:6 157:13
173:10,22
196:1 220:17
parties 17:24
21:14 180:22
182:8 191:19
241:14 243:16
243:18
partnership
161:20 209:1
220:3
partnerships
155:16 191:2
208:15,17,23
209:15 220:16
parts 39:8
46:15 47:6
53:10
party 74:18
passed 20:6
passing 32:9
40:6
patios 34:2
pattern 81:5
Paul 5:6 57:6
pavement
224:16
pay 11:6 43:1,21
43:23 44:4
49:23 56:21
56:23 57:10
57:13 65:21
67:18 78:20
79:3 105:1
132:20 147:12
148:10 151:8
152:21,24
164:1,2 176:12
198:18 202:16
236:19
payback 149:9
paying 31:18
78:14 87:19
87:20 117:1
131:18 134:2
192:23
payment 91:4
148:1 175:16
192:18 225:5
payments
192:20
pays 192:21
people 18:12
35:18 56:9,21
57:10,13 58:21
69:18 73:7,13
76:10 82:16
105:2,2 115:3
149:16 151:13
155:11 157:10
192:8 205:8,9
233:18 234:18
perceived
181:14
percent 31:12,13
44:8,10 53:2,3
55:19,19
101:19,25
102:4,16 103:6
121:3 142:7
143:16 150:22
150:23 170:6
170:23,23,25
172:22 177:1
205:2 206:16
212:8,19 213:6
224:13
percentage
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172:22 174:1
213:6 231:22
perfect 152:16
222:5
perform 25:13
104:6,9,12,23
124:14
performed
141:20,23,23
period 12:8,10
15:1 38:24
40:8 49:17
98:24 100:14
110:16 132:15
137:8 140:5
143:22 144:4
149:9 158:24
164:2 167:7
170:24 174:12
179:18,21,22
182:25
204:25 218:10
218:12
periodic 190:17
periods 36:24
97:10
permitted 14:9
15:11
permit-regula...
231:17
perpetuity 113:6
230:6,14
person 12:12
13:18 14:3,25
26:7 150:25
150:25
personnel
157:13
persons 15:11
21:17
person's 15:9
perspective
69:20,20
71:14 166:7
178:13 180:16
pertain 166:4
pertains 188:15
pertinent 47:17
48:11 165:19
pervious
223:23
224:12,15
Peters 229:17
philosophy
149:12
Phoenix 209:5
phone 9:7
phrase 127:17
233:19
physical 97:2
111:10,13,18
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picture 117:7
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piece 20:12
36:1 47:15
48:4,10 76:21
103:5 126:23
178:17
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pipe 37:13,14,14
70:6 71:15
95:13
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piping 111:20
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place 24:1 32:3
46:1 47:23
70:14 72:9
98:20,25 101:1
101:4 112:3
119:14 128:7,21
135:3,21 136:2
139:9,24
140:18 216:12
placed 164:9
places 223:18
223:21 225:8
236:24
placing 165:7
plan 9:22 10:1,6
18:16 31:7,9
40:13 44:15
69:7 70:20
80:20 104:12
104:24 108:17
116:5 159:1
197:17 198:6
203:25
221:24 238:6
planned 31:17
planning 45:11
108:23 142:4
142:5
plans 25:25
44:5 49:17
53:8 54:17
191:6 207:20
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plants 45:19
69:13 112:25
play 55:7
played 205:21
please 9:6 17:19
18:3 20:8
21:22 22:12,18
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222:17 234:13
239:4 241:9
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192:15
pocketbook
222:7
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31:6,14 34:10
36:2,3 39:2
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71:3 75:22
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122:3,9 123:4
124:6,8,21
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159:16 160:23
162:24 165:21
213:11 239:24
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175:23
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43:15,16
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139:4 153:21
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176:9,17,18
181:11,18 183:1
189:2,3,5
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portion 25:7,7
25:12 69:24
69:25 72:2
163:22 166:4
203:14 221:2
portions 104:14
218:23
poses 156:3
position 42:18
43:15,16 67:11
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possession
41:25
possible 43:25
110:4,14 159:16
160:11,17 162:6
possibly 30:22
60:1 73:5
137:25 154:22
pot 54:24
potential 25:20
27:5 29:2
36:19 37:1
39:23 44:13
48:5 72:10
114:2 172:5,9
221:22
234:20,22
236:9
potentially
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168:9 179:22
180:22 183:18
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176:6 188:6
202:12 216:2
237:17,18
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125:1 223:16
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predictions
205:21
preexisting
138:12
prefer 26:10
73:14
preliminary
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160:22 171:16
prepared 12:19
13:14,25 190:5
preparing 63:9
155:12
present 5:3
6:16 7:9,11,14
14:20 21:17
22:13 76:19
79:22 145:4,6
presentation
61:23
presented
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29:11 156:6
197:1 209:19
presenting
46:10
presumably
24:17 134:21
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76:17 93:18
111:8,10 138:2
195:17 215:23
237:21
prevent 36:21
preventing
55:12
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100:21 116:1
120:7 196:20
200:3 205:18
206:5
previously 41:5
43:20 46:5
158:16 209:19
239:11
price 27:10
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114:20 128:5,8
141:24 191:6
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40:19
principle 11:7
prior 76:6,12
92:22 113:1,19
119:13 121:25
200:17 242:2
priorities
154:23
prioritization
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64:23 94:20
122:1 124:15
126:3 130:10
130:13 154:10
180:9 220:12
237:14,22
prioritize 190:1
prioritized
66:24
prioritizing
31:22 114:17
154:14 189:15
priority 125:22
152:1 180:1
181:3,5 182:19
190:7
private 43:5
58:10 77:5
83:23 85:19
112:18 191:10
209:11 219:8
219:13
privately 41:16
privileged 86:8
prob 150:19
probability
55:11
probably 26:7
27:3 37:9
62:5 84:14
95:14 105:10
118:9 128:5
140:11 142:7
142:20 143:2
143:5 147:11
148:15 168:18
176:10 178:5
180:23 181:6
190:2 207:24
213:2,16
221:19 223:21
227:9 228:12
235:7
problem 23:13
25:19 27:23
28:11 29:13,18
37:25 48:21
62:9 63:11
66:17,17,24
93:15,19,20
93:24 95:4,9
95:24 96:6
107:5 121:22
121:24 122:7,8
122:10,18,20
123:4 126:11
129:12 134:7
134:10,15
147:10 150:9
153:1 162:4
164:24 180:7
180:13 183:6
problems 23:17
23:17 26:20
26:21 29:11,22
30:13,13,13
37:1,15 38:3
67:6 71:19
96:8,16 115:12
125:2,6,22
127:6,8 150:8
150:12,21
151:5 152:11
153:23 155:17
179:17 233:20
procedural 12:11
15:13 17:2,13
17:16
proceed 9:7
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
17:11,19,25
18:3 21:22
22:18
proceeding 1:3
9:21 24:10
proceedings
7:19 12:15
24:16 31:16
39:19 43:21
47:17 200:4,17
200:19,19,22
243:12,13
proceeds 187:2
process 18:9
30:14 32:3,8
32:13,16 34:16
38:17 44:2
54:16 55:2,15
64:23 76:7
77:22 78:17
122:24 127:2
145:4 148:13
160:15,24
180:9 192:12
196:25
processes
35:13
processing
109:24
produced
63:23 132:5
producing
102:12
products 40:3
Professional
243:4
program 24:2
26:1 31:13
32:15,16
39:25 42:11,14
42:17,23 43:1
44:10 50:6
51:20 52:12
54:18 56:24
60:20 66:15
67:3 70:9,13
70:23 71:1
72:24 73:1
74:2,10,12,19
74:20,24
75:24 77:7,9
77:15 100:5
101:4,12 108:2
108:9,11
109:12 112:17
113:8 114:2,12
120:13 124:24
131:3 133:4,16
134:12 139:9,9
139:12,19,22
140:1,2,10,17
140:19,21
147:25 148:14
148:25 149:3
149:7,17
150:18 151:4,7
151:24 152:2
155:6,7 156:9
156:19,22
157:7,11,12
161:13 163:8,13
163:22,24
164:23 165:15
165:19 166:3,4
166:6 167:13
167:19 170:7
173:7 181:2,20
183:24 185:9
186:6,16,23
188:8,12,13,16
188:20,22
190:17,22
191:21,21
198:15 199:22
199:23,25
215:24 216:21
217:11 220:2
221:20 223:6
224:21 225:17
225:19 226:21
227:2,3,6,11
227:16,22
228:19 230:17
230:22 231:1
231:5 233:4
233:24 234:7
234:18,24
235:2,5,12,17
235:19 236:14
programmed
67:15 77:19
programs
47:22 60:21
66:1,7 99:14
116:10 135:2,6
139:14 143:19
147:24,24
148:17 166:13
172:14,19,20
181:2 182:1
183:19,21 191:7
207:4 215:9
215:10 216:1
223:12,13
225:14,25
226:2,13,16,16
227:13 229:19
231:4,12,25
233:8,8 234:2
235:14,15,21
235:25
project 28:2,18
28:19,25 30:3
32:6,7 38:21
60:24 61:4,6
67:15,20
72:10 77:8,21
78:1,4,21 79:2
94:10 95:1
96:22,24
107:24 109:5
109:13 114:5
117:10 127:9
134:21,23
142:3 143:19
149:16 153:10
155:23 156:16
158:17 161:22
161:25 166:11
166:15 167:8
179:10,14,25
180:2,10
182:18 202:18
202:21 203:4
203:15
235:23
projected 110:5
110:15 202:9
204:23
projecting
231:8
projection 40:9
140:22
204:22
projections
110:9 140:8,15
171:10 173:22
projects 27:9
29:4,20 30:1
31:23 32:7,9
32:11,14 37:20
38:22 39:20
40:15 41:21
49:10,25
50:10 54:11
55:2 58:9
62:21 64:17,18
65:8 66:18,23
67:8,12 69:9
71:7 75:24
78:13,15 93:11
96:19,19,21
97:12,16,18,21
98:1 105:22
106:6 108:18
109:14 114:17
122:5 124:2
130:10 132:24
133:24 134:19
142:6 143:18
145:3 151:25
152:6 153:16
154:1,6,14
155:2,3 156:17
159:2,18,22
161:22 163:15
163:20 164:11
164:15 166:13
166:21,22,23
167:5,6,10
176:1,13 179:17
179:24 180:19
181:22 182:3
182:17,24
184:9,14 187:3
187:17,19
188:3 189:15
190:2,7 191:22
191:22 202:16
202:17 203:1
203:2,16,19
208:24 209:4
209:7 221:4
236:13
237:23,25
project's 38:23
proofread
243:10
Prop 40:4,12
42:3 112:14
204:20 205:4
205:6,19
proper 7:21
35:9 124:17
properties 52:11
83:18 94:11
98:3,7 113:9
113:10,25
119:11 126:17
136:21 217:19
217:22 218:1
221:3,5 223:1
223:3,4
225:18,23
property 19:17
19:25 20:14
29:14,15 35:16
36:9 51:7
58:21 62:7
67:5 71:2
73:25 83:22
84:21,22 85:6
85:7 87:15
95:5 98:9,13
98:16 102:7,13
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
103:5 107:23
112:19 113:3
118:22,24
119:5,10,12
120:8,14 121:4
123:12,12
126:10,17,23
127:12 131:19
135:12 136:1
138:8 139:16
140:9 142:14
142:18 145:22
146:1 154:25
162:2,2 178:9
178:17 201:8,9
201:18 205:13
217:4,6,9
219:19
proportional
199:13,15
proportionate
199:17,25
proposal 12:13
18:23 19:4,6
19:10,11,15,20
20:3,9,19,25
22:25 25:11
32:12 33:16,19
38:11 43:18,18
45:12 46:20
47:18 48:13
48:25 50:1
51:21 52:22
53:16,17 54:4
55:18 56:9,21
58:8 62:20
65:24 66:7
68:12 72:24
74:15,16 75:14
80:11,18 81:10
81:25 82:8
88:7,9,9 97:15
99:16 102:18
103:23 108:2
110:7 118:9
143:14 151:18
153:11 155:18
156:6 157:16
157:18,19
163:11 166:12
169:23 170:1
172:22 173:19
184:13 185:6
185:10,11,19
186:6 187:2,14
196:14,25
197:1,18 198:7
205:5 207:23
208:20
210:19 215:14
215:18 218:21
219:12,17
224:4
proposals 51:18
55:21 56:18
75:18
propose 8:4
151:7
proposed 10:4
11:14 12:5
18:20 20:15,19
20:21 21:1
40:5 46:4
47:8 50:3 51:4
54:18 58:9
61:20 65:15
83:7 110:2
142:13 158:2
185:20 187:4
201:6 215:10
221:24
224:20 225:11
proposes 18:24
20:9
proposing 44:11
47:21 48:1
51:22 65:14,15
65:23 147:21
163:15 192:17
215:13
proposition
20:6 32:10
35:3,12 36:10
38:19 40:6,10
59:1,14,16
156:22
propound 15:11
propounded
13:9,19 14:5
protection
166:21
protocol 191:20
proved 125:1
Provel 228:5
provide 11:17
13:8 18:9
20:23 23:15
24:6 26:16
33:9 40:20
47:17 50:12
56:25 66:2
81:8 86:8
92:6 93:12
94:10,17 100:3
100:10 107:25
108:1,6,16,21
123:20 126:2
126:7 128:14
130:12 132:8
132:18 140:13
144:24 145:5
145:9 146:25
148:7 149:5
152:24 159:18
160:1,6,18
161:5,11 162:4
195:11 226:14
226:15 227:12
227:23 230:9
236:12 240:15
provided 31:19
48:2 51:17
52:2 61:20
81:1 85:25
89:23 91:13
91:25 92:7,10
94:15 95:22
123:3 133:9
142:14 143:15
171:16,17
178:21 196:24
240:19,24
provides 25:18
48:25 210:22
221:1
providing 48:21
54:5 56:22
87:11 118:6
128:10 160:4
195:16
provision 11:20
38:10 82:1,5
88:6,8 190:18
191:4 223:22
230:13
provisions
80:22
proviso 162:1
prudent 183:15
188:5
public 14:10
17:11 19:24
30:19 32:4
33:23 34:23
35:14 36:8
37:7,11 38:2,16
38:20 39:7
40:23 41:2,3
41:23 43:5
48:4,7 52:25
53:5,6,6,14
54:23 58:10
58:14,18 59:3
59:9 76:17
83:22 85:19
119:3 143:5
152:22 154:12
191:9 211:5,9
219:4 241:19
publication
143:3,4
publicized
143:9
public-private
155:16 161:20
191:2 208:15
208:17,23
209:1,14
220:3,16
pull 78:1 132:25
162:3 169:25
170:1 205:23
pulled 68:14
pulling 222:20
purely 98:1,2
purpose 13:7
40:19
pursuant 18:13
85:20
pursue 23:4,8
191:6
pursued 89:17
pursuing 24:9
put 27:11 28:5
30:15,16 32:5
38:15 52:12
54:18 58:16
59:15 70:14
72:9 79:9
98:20,25
100:2 109:16
109:17 112:3
112:22 116:16
120:20,22
122:9,13
126:25 128:20
133:7 135:2,18
136:24 138:14
143:10,18
160:25 205:17
223:13 226:2
putting 36:2
59:3 112:4
133:11 137:11
puzzle 20:12
P.C 4:3
P.E 2:6,15
P3 209:3
Q
qualified 26:9
qualify 42:25
131:23
quality 72:7,15
110:1 128:14
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
137:11,14 221:4
227:3,11
236:13,13,20
236:24
quantities 161:7
quarter 192:10
quarterly 54:20
175:2,3 192:10
192:14 193:2
question 23:3
25:23 31:17
33:11,17 34:21
38:12 40:17
42:10 43:3,23
49:5 50:16
51:1,8,9 52:16
56:17,19 57:7
57:7 61:13
63:9 64:9
73:15 74:7,17
75:10 77:3,5
80:15,16,17,17
81:4,7,13,16,24
82:6,7 83:3,6
85:17 86:12
88:2,5,15
89:23 91:1,1,16
91:18 92:1
94:23 98:11
99:15,17
102:21 103:17
105:20,24
106:1,3,15,17
107:19 108:7
109:1,8,21
110:11 112:8
121:1 129:2
131:5 135:10
136:20 139:20
143:14 144:9
146:2 150:1,11
151:15 156:1,3
156:3 157:14
160:2,19 161:17
163:20 169:19
169:21 170:16
170:18 171:14
171:24 174:4
174:15 176:20
176:21,24
177:2,4,6,9,13
179:13 182:6
185:1,4,4
190:2 192:6,14
192:24 194:23
195:9 196:12
196:13 198:1,3
198:22 200:8
200:23
205:16 206:5
207:12,25
208:12 209:21
210:17,17
211:22,24
215:19 221:21
221:25 222:15
224:18,22
225:13 227:21
229:20
234:13 236:1
236:22
237:13 239:14
239:23
questioning
213:5
questionnaire
212:14
questions 2:6,7
2:7,8,8,9,9,10
2:10,11,13,13,14
2:14,16,16,17
2:17,18,18,19
2:19,20,20,21
2:21,22 3:2,3
3:3,4,4,5,7,7,8
3:8,9,11,12,12
3:13,13,14 13:9
13:19 14:5,25
15:3,4,9,12
16:4 22:3,7,8
22:13,21 23:1
32:21,24 33:7
47:14 53:18,21
54:1 55:15,17
58:7 60:8
61:12 62:5
63:1 64:11 65:1
65:7 72:18,22
73:13 75:3,6,7
79:11,13 80:2
80:7,10 82:15
82:20,23
85:17 89:25
90:5,8,21,23
90:25 92:13
93:2,6 99:7,10
107:16 113:19
113:22 114:15
116:20,23
119:23 120:12
121:13 130:11
141:1,4,7,12,13
141:17 144:20
145:11 147:17
147:22 149:23
150:2,5 159:7
159:9,13 162:9
162:10,12,23
163:2 165:20
169:11,13
170:12 176:22
179:5,7,8
184:3,5,17,24
186:2 191:25
192:3,5 193:7
193:11 194:6,16
194:18,19
197:5,9,11
204:13,15,18
205:25 206:2
206:3 208:9
208:11 209:24
210:1,9,12
214:18 216:14
221:8,10,16
226:12 232:18
236:5,7 237:4
237:6,7 238:9
238:11,12
241:8,24
242:2,5,10
quick 27:21,25
28:7 158:23
quickly 24:22
49:14 162:4
182:15 222:14
quite 32:4
36:23 47:9
54:13 160:9
169:2 176:10
quorum 7:14
quote 68:17
190:17,22
R
Raftelis 21:7,8
rain 34:3 66:4
99:25 100:9,11
100:24 116:11
117:4 120:18,19
120:21,23
133:5,8 151:1
161:23 180:12
215:12 216:1,6
221:2 225:9
225:17 227:2
227:6 230:21
232:3,14,18
235:6
rainfall 218:9,12
rains 93:21
123:9 180:14
rainscaping
230:17
rainstorms
68:21
raise 156:16
raised 163:6
187:14
Raleigh 227:12
ramp 39:22
range 96:23,23
103:5,6,9,14
103:15 161:3
169:3
ranges 103:9
rarely 78:25
218:25
rate 1:1,3 4:6 6:3
6:4 9:11,20
10:1,8,10,17
11:3,4,6,12,13
11:14 12:2,2,4
12:5,7,9,11,13
12:19,23 13:1,6
13:9,11,13,19
13:24 14:5,21
14:23,24 15:4
15:17,19,22
16:3 17:3 18:8
18:18,23,24
19:2,4,6,9,10
19:15,20 20:3
20:9,10,15,19
20:25 21:9,11
22:2,25 24:10
24:13,13,19,21
25:3,4,11 31:18
32:12 33:5,16
33:18 34:13
37:21 40:20
41:21 42:12,17
42:24,24 43:1
43:7,14,17,18
43:23 44:4,5
44:16,16,24
45:12,23,24
45:25 46:4,9
46:19,22,25
47:4,6,8,13,18
48:6,12,17,19
48:23 49:7
50:4,15 51:5
51:13 52:19,21
52:23 53:8,11
53:21 55:18
55:20,21,24
56:9,11,20,21
57:2,3,5,11,13
57:16 60:10,14
61:20 65:2,24
68:12 71:8,14
71:22 74:16
75:4,9,9,14,18
76:8 78:14
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
79:18 80:11,17
81:10,25 82:8
83:7,8,10,13
83:19,20,22
83:25 84:1,3,6
84:9,14,20
85:2,3,15,18
86:4,17,25
87:1,2,5,6,10
87:16,17,19,21
88:9,11,19 89:1
89:4,15,16
90:4 91:13,22
92:4,14 99:16
102:18 108:2
110:2,6 111:17
113:19 116:1,3
118:8 119:3
120:1 121:8
141:4,6 142:23
143:4,14
148:19 156:6
157:5,16,18,19
162:11,23
164:5 165:2
166:11 168:8,9
168:11,13
169:23 170:1,2
170:20,22,25
171:1 172:21
173:1 175:7
176:12 177:1
177:23 178:12
178:15,20
179:5,15
184:13 185:6,7
185:9,10,21
187:2,4 190:6
192:4 193:23
195:16 196:7,8
196:13 197:15
197:18 198:5,7
199:5,12
200:3 201:1,6
204:15 205:4
205:17,18
206:13 207:17
210:18,18
211:20 212:7
213:20 215:14
217:16 218:8,11
218:15,20,22
219:2,17
221:10,24
224:4 225:1
231:6 236:9,9
236:12,15,17
237:1,12
240:3,12,15
242:22
rated 165:6
240:8
ratepayer
190:25 199:6
ratepayers 12:1
14:8 20:21
25:21 27:12
29:11,12 48:14
165:16
rates 10:3,4,4
18:20,21,21
19:1,7,7,13
20:21 21:1
24:16,22 25:1
25:6,14 42:7
44:9 46:5,7,10
46:11 47:1,1
66:3 68:10
70:17 76:5
88:25 100:21
168:15,16 171:2
171:5,11 195:18
205:15 214:24
225:2 237:8
rate-setting
13:5 18:8
rating 160:8
167:18 239:19
239:21 240:1
240:12,20,21
ratings 159:18
161:15 165:9
167:25
rating's 165:10
ratio 32:7 63:19
68:3 123:4
128:2 144:23
154:13 155:23
189:16 190:5
191:20
rationale 8:7
23:8 175:9
Ratzki 3:8,13
5:4 7:4,5
204:17,18
205:24 206:1
236:6,7 237:3
reach 108:14
202:24
reaching 69:10
read 190:20,20
212:22
230:23
reading 9:10
158:12 194:22
ready 21:16
63:13,15
79:22 92:18
142:20,21
162:17 194:11
210:4
real 37:9 50:5
67:17 77:18
realistic 161:2
reality 97:6
202:24
realize 115:18
realized 56:2
really 33:7 36:3
47:19 50:21
54:8 74:22
76:14,19,20
99:1 133:5,10
139:6 158:20
182:19 189:3
208:4,4,6
reanalyzed
151:24
reason 26:5
31:5 36:2
50:14 62:4
67:23 73:16
85:2 88:11
129:1 133:3
163:23 180:6
207:22
229:19 233:11
reasonable
11:25 20:20
42:13,15 43:4
51:2,19 52:13
91:5 169:22
170:4 171:8,12
175:19 195:12
195:17 196:11
196:17 198:18
198:24 200:2
200:6,12,16
210:21,24
211:13,20
214:23 231:13
231:14 236:15
reasonable-ty ...
146:13
reasons 36:8
46:2 56:15
88:17,23
163:13,14
220:19 225:21
Rebecca 1:19
243:3,24
rebuttal 13:14,17
13:18 241:10
recall 39:18
61:22 103:20
115:25 149:2
165:23 176:2
176:21,22
179:15 186:6
227:4 235:24
receipt 11:3
182:11
receive 43:23
56:10 100:7
180:21 201:15
received 12:2
21:11 57:18
86:2,22 87:14
90:17 115:7
receives 127:6
receiving
136:12 201:15
recognize 17:2
190:18,19
225:2
recognized
15:20 23:11
recognizing
44:12
recollection
138:1
recommend
11:4
recommenda ...
16:7
recommenda ...
10:2 18:19
81:19
recommended
11:12 47:1
reconvene
79:21 193:23
record 13:5 14:1
38:7 39:12
83:12 115:4
170:9 190:14
records 7:20
115:6
recover 200:12
recovered
178:7 198:20
recovering
198:25 210:21
211:13
rectify 178:10
178:24
recurrence
55:11
recurrences
93:21
redirects 69:9
reduce 31:13
35:15,22
56:24 57:4
66:2 70:11
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
113:9 114:10
148:20 180:23
180:24 182:8
190:24,24
222:8 234:19
234:21 240:5
reduced 223:19
225:2
reducing 35:19
132:15 148:23
157:8 207:7
221:22
reduction 31:12
132:3,20
135:25 168:23
203:23 204:2
206:8 225:6
reductions
225:1
refer 42:10,11
46:16 52:4
74:6 80:13
111:10 166:10
239:22
reference
185:10 186:3
211:25 215:18
referenced 41:4
references
68:8,17 157:17
196:8
referred 88:2
91:19,24
94:24 110:20
112:11 121:16
186:8 204:5
217:2,3,12
224:24
referring 91:7
93:9 129:21
130:25 155:5
155:6 176:23
refers 51:2,10
81:7
refine 152:2
153:3
reflect 8:6
36:22
reflected 8:8
reflecting
219:22
reflects 199:6
regard 19:2
35:11 70:8
94:2,2,17
135:6 145:14
148:5 157:13
173:3 188:8
198:22 216:18
217:21
regarding 10:3
13:5,16 14:2
16:4 18:19
20:24 44:23
110:4 113:25
200:15,23
214:23 239:5
regards 170:6
170:20 184:11
region 229:14
233:21
regional 94:13
127:5,14
217:13 220:21
Registered
243:3
regroup 52:22
regular 36:17
regulated
136:22
regulation
98:23
regulations
11:24 80:21
82:10 98:19
98:25 99:2
111:25 146:19
236:19
regulatorily
101:13 146:17
regulatory 19:16
19:18 20:13
46:17 48:3
65:11 69:20
70:14,16,17
71:14 87:21
104:9,11,13,16
104:18 116:14
120:20 135:18
137:7 138:9
146:18
reimburse
67:21
reiterated 68:12
reject 52:18
relate 63:23
related 11:19
31:21 35:5
64:20 71:13
80:10 81:9
87:10 91:20,21
109:1 118:23
165:21 185:6
196:6 210:22
216:5,12
239:17 243:15
relates 80:17
191:14
relating 11:20
72:1 82:1
185:8
relation 165:25
relationship
52:1 86:21,24
87:10,14 134:11
relative 125:25
134:15 142:12
157:6 243:17
relatively 25:10
25:11,17 42:6
116:17 167:2
release 68:25
relevant 68:11
124:21
relies 191:5
relying 90:15
remain 78:22
101:8
remainder 141:7
remaining
104:14
remains 15:10
remarks 21:10,11
remediate
150:7,12 152:11
155:17,23
189:6
remediation
67:7 153:15
153:20,23
154:6
remember
20:13 59:15
94:19 106:1
remind 53:22
121:5 238:23
241:6
removal 114:8
222:3,25
223:5,22
227:19
remove 145:21
removed 70:21
202:22
removing
224:6
rendered 91:17
reoccurrence
123:11
repairing 36:18
repeat 98:11
106:3 108:5
110:10 176:23
177:4
repeatedly
33:21
rephrase 30:24
68:15
replace 37:17
report 12:5,9
33:6,9 54:21
126:2,7 140:12
214:3
reported 1:18
243:10
reporter 7:16
53:23 94:1
197:24 243:1,4
243:4,5
reports 127:11
240:21,21
represent 10:11
representation
10:9
representative
10:10 159:17
176:8
representativ ...
10:18
represents
27:14
request 12:24
13:2 15:22
49:5 57:3,5
60:3,10 63:8
107:15 150:1
152:20 194:1
242:6
requesting 31:6
require 15:17
61:3 65:9
112:5 118:7
132:1 146:9
164:14 165:2
199:7
required 11:10
14:25 47:3
49:1 59:11
100:7 120:14
120:20 140:19
140:20 146:17
152:3 167:20
197:21 198:11
requirement
15:23 16:14
135:18 146:18
164:8 202:10
216:8 231:17
requirements
19:14 29:23
42:22 45:16
46:6,12 68:11
72:15 100:6
104:14 137:7
138:9 168:17
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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183:4 198:19
201:4 216:12
232:12,14
requires 10:6
82:4 231:19
requiring 59:20
136:5 138:13
142:3
research 124:11
135:5
reserve 22:4
168:19 202:9
reserves 164:9
resident 149:8
residential 10:11
31:4 67:4 98:1
99:20,24
100:4 131:2,3
131:7 132:7,14
132:17 133:19
134:4 136:3,21
146:4 148:4,6
154:25 162:2
164:5,18 175:11
201:8 203:22
216:25 218:22
218:24 225:18
225:22
residents 25:9
54:24 60:23
67:24 78:6
resolve 71:10
96:25 115:1
resource 190:16
resources
108:24 154:18
155:3 156:3
162:5 189:10
191:23
respect 27:15
47:7 81:24
82:7 121:16
129:8 136:22
145:7 170:12
181:22 196:16
196:18,19
240:23
respectively
20:15
respond 135:10
212:25
responded 13:3
responding
50:1
responds 109:4
109:4
response 6:22
6:24 7:1,3,7,13
8:19,24 9:16
16:5,16,21 17:6
17:14 18:1 51:12
74:8 75:5
76:16 89:23
92:1 107:14
156:7 159:10
169:20 170:10
170:15 225:13
242:20
responses
12:25 31:11
68:13 85:16
224:19
responsibility
41:10
responsible
39:8 116:11
216:16
rest 25:18 72:11
82:15 117:14
141:4
restate 197:25
198:2
restating 36:6
restrictions
100:24 180:25
182:3,14 183:4
228:8
result 21:1 24:16
37:19 38:20
38:24 48:6
55:12 58:20
58:23 60:16
71:2 103:2
165:11 166:22
resulted 209:6
results 24:23
53:12 55:11
58:13 212:22
resume 193:18
retaining 41:15
retrofitting
235:12
return 141:7
reused 69:13
rev 50:19
revenue 19:5
35:9 38:5
40:7,21 42:21
46:15 50:19
50:22 56:13
60:16 190:25
197:21 198:11
198:19 201:4
203:24 204:2
204:20
205:20
208:24
236:12
revenues 25:3
25:8 31:12
42:3 44:8
45:24 49:24
59:11 187:12,13
205:14
220:22
reversed 77:22
review 10:2
18:18 101:4
104:12 114:7
167:18
reviewed
143:23 196:6
237:15,19
reviewing 117:3
195:22
reviews 101:4
revised 145:1,5
revisions
144:25
revisit 191:17
Rich 21:5 32:1
39:5,15 55:16
62:19 63:8,21
64:8,10,13,14
67:11 73:5,6
74:17,21 81:14
116:24 120:13
141:18 147:18
173:20,24
180:8 187:25
190:3 217:2
Richard 2:15
12:21
right 8:20 18:2
26:7 31:9 40:9
42:9 43:16
45:11 59:14,25
61:21,24 62:18
64:4 65:15,21
66:11 67:22
73:12,13 76:2
76:18 81:18
87:4 102:7
105:25 106:16
108:13 110:8
110:19 118:21
119:11,18 121:19
121:22 126:12
129:6 130:23
135:20 136:1
136:13 142:18
144:8,13 151:3
153:17 157:3
162:25 180:23
181:11 189:16
189:19 193:19
193:22 199:3
204:12 212:9
214:7,14
217:15 218:18
221:7 222:6,9
222:23
224:17,23
225:6,15
228:20
232:24
233:19
rights-of-ways
219:4
rise 150:12
risk 50:18,18
risks 50:19
river 23:12,23
23:23,24 72:6
72:7,7,14,15
100:20 101:23
102:7 113:1
114:7,11 121:7
rivers 23:13
road 147:4
roads 219:4,8
219:13
roadway 93:24
94:4 129:18
129:22,22
role 33:4
roll 6:5,7 17:3
rolls 201:20
roof 223:24
224:15
rooftops 34:1
room 7:17 50:1
243:8
roster 223:3
rough 28:17
roughly 158:23
173:12 197:21
198:12
route 173:18
RPR 1:19 243:24
rule 139:5
150:22 196:5
rules 12:11 14:25
15:16,17,21,22
16:1 100:25
run 193:4
running 147:21
173:7
runoff 35:5 51:5
71:1 94:17
98:8,15,18,23
101:2 102:6,11
102:12,13
146:22 148:23
178:8,17,25
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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199:2
runs 34:3
runways 102:3
Russell 5:6 8:10
rust 37:15
S
S 20:6 32:10
35:3,12 36:10
38:19 40:4,6
40:10,12 42:3
59:1,14,16
112:14 204:20
205:4,6,19
Saher 4:8 14:18
saher.valiani ...
4:11
sanitary 45:21
70:15 71:19
save 63:21
saw 71:15 107:9
161:23 222:7
saying 8:21
16:18 24:3
28:16 57:15
156:15 199:22
200:5 242:17
says 118:12
120:22 128:2
129:3 140:3
157:14,25
171:15 191:5
214:12
scale 123:17,22
123:23,24
126:24
scenarios 28:10
schedule 45:17
78:16 101:15,16
176:1 184:13
scheduled 19:11
20:16 184:10
scheme 142:15
Schoedel 2:8,17
2:20 5:7 7:6
17:4 58:5,6,7
60:6 114:14,15
116:19 141:14
144:19,20
145:12,13,14
147:14
scope 57:2,4,17
134:15 152:3,4
153:1,3 161:13
207:5
se 165:9 167:10
172:15 195:21
240:2
search 147:9
second 8:1,12
8:15 9:4 13:1
16:12 49:5
77:3 146:2
160:2,2 170:11
170:11 212:15
237:13 242:15
seconded 8:2,6
16:14 242:16
secretary 6:6
section 15:25
18:17 80:12
83:23 86:17
88:16,22
89:19 91:6,20
97:15 99:16
127:20 215:17
see 48:9 53:3
59:10 62:3,10
67:14 110:20
119:13 120:21
124:21 127:11
128:1,16 132:9
133:19 142:25
152:4 156:10
158:10 162:6
169:7 181:17,19
185:11,15,21
192:25 199:19
200:1,23
201:14 202:2
202:8 203:3
203:17,21
205:5 208:1
209:13 217:11
229:21
seeing 92:15
147:23 168:3
seeking 31:1
89:10
seen 37:5 76:18
149:20 153:7
155:11 207:4
209:18 222:12
225:4,9,24
229:23 233:8
235:21,22
236:16 237:16
238:4
sees 67:22
select 10:7
self-selected
212:25
sell 145:16
semblance
123:3
seminatural
41:14
semi-annually
193:3
send 39:16
142:2 175:14
229:3
Senior 10:20
sense 132:22
149:18 231:3
232:4
sensing 168:3
sent 142:24
sentence
102:23,24
156:7,10
sentiment 211:5
separate 31:22
39:3 45:21
70:23,24,25
71:19 76:23
84:4 231:16
septic 175:12
series 14:9
serve 9:21 17:11
77:12 135:16
served 83:22
serves 18:11
24:4 135:15
service 18:12
23:11,15,17
29:20 31:19
38:5 43:24
50:12 56:10
61:19 68:18
91:5 96:22
107:19 108:4,5
108:14 152:24
186:5 219:11
225:3
services 1:19
10:9,20 11:19
19:6,8,18,18
20:1,1,13,13
24:6 25:8,12
25:18 35:17
48:2 49:2
51:4 52:2
56:25 57:17
65:23 81:9
84:11 86:21
87:11,12,13,14
88:20 91:5,7
91:9,11,12
104:10,17
107:22,22,23
108:6,16,17,21
108:21 118:18
178:20 195:16
199:7
serving 18:8
21:8
session 8:8
141:10
sessions 14:11
set 46:5 53:11
70:3 78:2
121:23 216:7
sets 153:8
setting 42:7
132:7 183:3,5
195:16,18
196:7,8
setup 7:17 67:12
211:1
severity 66:24
93:19 122:7
180:7,16
sewer 1:2 4:14
4:16 6:3 9:20
11:18 14:14 18:7
28:5,7,8
34:24 35:14
35:24 36:8
37:7,11 38:1
40:23 41:2,3
41:21,25 58:17
59:10 61:14
68:20,24 69:1
69:23 70:10
70:15,15,19,21
70:24,25 72:6
112:21,23
114:10 124:9
135:2 175:11
217:13 220:21
229:11 231:17
243:8
sewers 36:16
36:20 37:8
40:11 41:6,24
45:22,22
69:10 166:24
shake 197:7
Shands 90:12
90:18 91:17,22
92:8,11
share 42:20
85:23 86:6
150:7 199:17
199:25
220:22
sharing 114:23
sheet 94:20,21
167:14 169:1
shopping 208:3
shorten 179:21
179:22
Shorthand
243:5
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
shortly 156:2
show 47:20,20
59:25 115:6
127:1 131:10
133:9
showed 117:10
161:23
shown 62:20
205:4
side 71:7 164:24
165:5,8 167:12
173:23
209:22
sidewalks 34:2
102:2
sidewalls 41:8
sign 113:4
significant 161:9
168:7,7
significantly
233:16
signify 8:21
16:17 242:17
signs 100:13
similar 28:16
33:24 51:11
52:9 86:9
94:3 100:9
114:19 147:22
148:17 196:5
200:21 211:19
237:16 241:13
simple 28:4,4
34:9 38:15
60:13 78:11
simpler 54:19
simplify 108:20
simply 31:12
44:7 51:18
150:11 175:10
single 149:8
sir 65:13 69:16
106:4 162:19
185:3,14,22
185:25 186:7
186:18,22
192:7 193:8
194:13 240:18
sit 25:16 140:15
187:21
site 58:19 95:2
142:22 186:21
sits 26:22
sitting 103:10
202:25 203:11
situation 49:9
50:13 115:14
130:5
situations 34:14
six 103:23 104:4
104:4 146:6
size 27:4,6
30:18,19 44:10
59:8 66:14
153:1 163:24
165:14 167:2
199:22,22
216:5 232:12
sizing 66:16
151:22
slight 37:24
slightly 44:9
54:12 228:15
small 25:10,11,17
42:5,6 49:17
53:10 76:18
146:6 164:21
167:2,9 180:12
192:6 233:17
smaller 44:10
218:24
smyers@stlm ...
4:16
soak 114:9
socioeconomic
10:15
soil 36:22
sole 90:14
240:7
solution 28:12
31:9 37:25
38:2 41:23
58:13,25
63:17 65:22
93:16 94:9,9
94:10,13,15
95:11,16,19
96:9 111:23,24
112:2,6 122:11
126:23,24
127:4,5,19
128:4,8,9,11
147:9,13
152:16 191:3
solutions 70:9
127:17 152:15
152:18
solve 58:16
147:11
solving 127:8
somebody
33:12 41:10
47:25 103:10
120:20 133:2
146:23 180:1
192:21
somebody's
28:6 58:16
130:19
someone's
93:25 179:14
somewhat
29:23 39:23
51:11 52:9
115:9 130:6
132:19 149:9
152:10,12
154:3,19,19
155:5 156:23
230:18
soon 142:20
143:10
sorry 90:5
109:20 157:20
188:25 189:1
211:23 224:21
231:7
sort 66:5 77:10
87:6 110:14
182:12 195:25
230:12 235:15
sorts 220:9
sound 152:17
sounded
227:14
sounds 168:12
source 35:9
40:21 54:23
65:6,10 67:13
119:16 195:13
208:25
sources 19:5
46:16 56:13
66:10,14 67:3
189:4,9
190:23 191:18
South 62:8
speak 138:17
162:6
speaking 139:13
special 9:24
56:7
specialty
107:23
specific 67:8
75:22 100:5
103:5 118:23
122:23 123:20
126:20 130:5
154:21 159:18
213:6 215:19
216:9,10 217:4
217:8 224:2
specifically 8:7
40:18 70:19
91:4 101:12
103:11 121:1
167:17 176:22
207:24
208:18 219:16
220:6 223:20
227:18 235:16
specifics 94:20
183:23 189:25
speed 67:15
spend 60:19
161:24 182:15
182:25
237:24
spending 54:9
183:12
spent 28:18
61:9 183:9
203:1
spot 52:11 61:24
Sprague 59:19
sprawl 61:13
120:3 208:4
spread 192:14
square 4:9
18:13 52:10
103:8 130:3
131:22 201:24
202:5,7
squiggly 30:16
St 1:2,21 4:4,10
4:14,15,16 6:3
9:20,23,23
10:19,20,21,23
11:1 14:14 18:6
23:22 62:11
113:24 114:5
119:25 136:8
181:21,21 207:1
207:2,3
228:6 229:17
243:7,9
stability 190:25
staff 33:12
43:22 108:22
108:23 116:13
116:14 122:24
141:20,23
142:4 156:9
158:1 160:4
186:16,21
188:7,22
191:16 197:23
198:13 231:2
232:6,17
stakeholders
183:25
stand 242:11
standard 96:3,6
96:11 195:17
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
216:5
standpoint
86:15 149:12
start 6:5 45:8
92:21 93:9
113:18 114:23
165:4 169:19
170:5 184:8
210:13 221:21
222:9 237:19
237:20
started 28:11
59:16 137:4
146:20
starting 34:10
74:21 241:14
state 11:24
34:22 43:6
82:10 83:10
88:21 98:6,13
102:25 106:9
106:17 112:5
146:3 174:16
191:8 196:1
198:23 243:5
stated 8:7 45:11
66:16 91:2
171:15 199:10
202:8
statement 2:3
11:14 17:17,20
17:25 18:10
21:15 24:9
35:11 45:9
48:8 68:7
69:14 77:18
78:9 91:14
155:4 190:13
210:19 212:19
states 15:24
49:6 69:7
85:18 109:21
156:7 196:3
212:12,13
214:10
stating 36:5
89:18
statute 89:3,7,11
89:12,17
Statutes 88:16
statutory 11:16
80:18,21 83:9
83:13 92:2
stay 37:22
Stein 2:17 5:5
7:8,9 8:1,15
113:21,22
114:13 242:14
steps 160:5,11
193:24
Steve 5:8
sticking 29:9
stood 71:15
stopped 89:16
store 146:5
storm 26:23
28:5,7 34:23
35:14,24 36:8
36:16,20 37:7
37:8,11 38:1
40:11,23 41:2
41:3,6,21,23
41:25 55:3,4
58:17 59:10
126:24 137:5
166:24 231:16
storms 59:3
stormwater 1:3
6:4 10:4 11:6
18:20,24 19:16
19:18,23,24
19:25 20:10,12
20:19 26:19
26:22 29:12
29:13,19,19
30:8,9,12,20
35:17 36:19,21
36:25 37:20
40:20 41:5,5
41:20 42:12
42:24 43:7
46:15,16,17
47:6,10,24
48:3,4,19 49:2
51:5 52:18
54:15,17,22
55:19,22
60:20,21,24
61:4 66:17
67:12,18 68:19
68:25 69:10
69:21,24 70:6
70:11,20,25
71:1,9,12,16,20
72:1,23 74:2
76:1,20 83:7,7
83:12,16,18
85:18 86:4,24
87:1,7,9,20,22
91:5,7,12
96:16 97:3
98:15,18,23
104:7 106:18
106:23 107:1
110:2 112:14,23
114:3 117:2,5,8
117:12 124:14
128:9 130:15
133:25 136:22
137:3 141:18
145:3 147:19
150:19,21
153:15 156:5
156:17,22
157:12,17
158:2 165:5,12
173:1,13,17
175:7,18 178:3
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stormwater-r...
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35:7 121:20
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243:8
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240:22
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Stump 2:7,13,16
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228:17
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122:16
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194:4,7
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14:4 193:25
subset 37:5
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Suite 4:9
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92:6
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Susan 2:12 4:13
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38:13
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110:3
teething 36:17
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teleconference
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telephone 5:10
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11:5,13 12:6,7
56:1 73:23
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176:17 216:16
216:20
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106:2,4
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236:11,23
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utility 196:7,8
208:23,25
213:24 220:5
220:12,25
222:2
utilize 60:12
157:10 178:4
180:9 183:11
220:1,2
utilized 96:7
124:15 156:21
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
157:12 158:3
170:20 171:10
utilizing 124:1
V
vacant 34:5
113:10 201:8
217:19,22
222:25 223:4
223:6,6
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validity 89:11
144:22
value 26:24
32:5 63:11,13
63:14,14,16
84:21,21 94:7
131:25 172:14
204:23 205:3
values 125:25
126:1
valves 68:25
varies 173:6,7
192:19 218:11
240:1
variety 226:1
various 23:2
27:11,11 28:10
68:13 122:5
159:15,21,22
vary 28:13
131:12 139:7
218:9
vast 212:7,19
213:8
Veatch 14:21
vehicle 191:18
versus 89:13
98:1 128:9
149:7 166:9
167:19 192:21
225:6
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view 77:16
182:9 190:5
viewed 167:15
violation 11:20
29:22 82:1
visit 95:3
visited 95:2
void 88:16,22
89:19
volume 51:5
223:18
volumes 72:5
voluntarily
133:11 207:7
231:18
voluntary
145:20
vote 53:2
voters 9:23
10:22 20:16
24:5 25:16
52:18 75:14
76:25
voting 76:12,17
W
wait 55:16
77:25
waive 16:14
waiving 15:23
walk 170:2
wall 41:15
want 22:14 27:8
30:15 31:14,24
32:1 34:17
39:6 44:19
50:6 64:7
73:12 76:20
76:25 77:24
78:12 81:18
85:13 103:13
103:24 111:6
112:13 120:22
126:22 130:18
135:19 143:11
145:19 146:25
149:4,8,16
150:1 158:5
171:4 173:25
182:18 183:9
187:16 190:12
190:13 196:16
199:20 200:9
203:21 206:4
206:4 214:21
215:8
wanted 43:14
48:15 72:23
93:9 121:14
122:7,12
143:12 147:6
171:17 177:18
195:4 239:7
242:4
wanting 36:2
148:7 155:12
175:24
wants 21:2
48:18
warranty 38:24
wasn't 74:22
111:24 117:25
118:6 122:23
123:25 146:17
195:21 205:17
227:20
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19:7,7,12,13
24:10,13,13,16
25:3 29:21
37:6 42:17,24
45:2,5,12,19
45:21,22,24
45:24 46:5
47:23 55:22
68:9,10,19
69:21,22 70:1
70:1,6,7,9,12
70:13,16,17,22
70:23 71:3,12
71:17,18,21,21
71:22 72:2,4
72:16 75:18
76:5 96:7
112:14,16,18
113:12,13 114:1
114:6,12 157:6
157:7,11
164:24 165:8
165:12 167:12
173:11 174:17
187:19,20
188:2,20,22
191:14 201:15
209:16
water 33:24
45:16 72:14
105:9 128:14
137:10,14
180:14 209:16
221:4 227:2,11
236:12,13,20
236:24
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23:22
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23:18
waterways
68:20
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20:2 23:10
30:8 35:13
44:3 46:18
50:6 51:19
60:11 72:25
84:14 85:3
98:21 117:12
125:10 132:14
138:15,19
178:6 200:12
202:17 221:23
228:15 234:16
236:12
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50:3 233:4
weaknesses
240:22
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website 68:16
68:17,22 69:4
119:6 137:21
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welcome 162:16
went 28:1 55:23
172:6 173:5
weren't 146:21
west 23:25,25
37:12 62:6
Western 213:24
wet 129:9
wetlands 129:9
we'll 15:24
21:20 38:21
39:9 46:8,10
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78:8 92:22
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44:3,10 45:11
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51:8,9 57:4
59:24 61:19
62:15,16 65:14
65:15,23 71:9
72:11 76:16
78:10 81:5
88:24 92:1
97:20 102:2
104:1 107:4
111:14 113:14
115:2,11 116:15
119:2,8,10
123:7 124:25
125:5,5 130:5
130:9 133:19
140:18,19
141:13 142:5,17
147:20 149:7
150:6,16 151:4
163:15 164:17
164:22,22
165:1,15,16
166:24 173:13
173:16 175:10
178:17 180:8
180:17 184:10
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
197:7 199:22
224:4 228:13
240:5
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25:1 27:11
30:2 33:2,19
37:5 43:17
48:12 61:24
62:6 70:14
95:1,22 96:7
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113:10,10 115:6
115:25 116:4,7
118:25,25
119:3 131:15
142:16,21
159:24 163:5
179:16 189:2
193:1 215:11
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whistle 149:14
whoever's
182:4
who've 23:2
Wichita 209:5
wide 226:1
widespread
133:19 216:9
willing 25:13
78:10,20 86:6
86:8 89:21
92:6 148:7
151:8,13
152:24 161:24
181:5 182:17
240:2
willingness
198:15,18
win 53:5
wise 205:20
wish 14:8 25:15
wishes 67:14
wishing 17:24
17:24 21:14
withdraw
192:22
witness 21:19
21:25 53:21
65:5 73:3
79:17,23,25
92:18,25
159:9 162:13
162:16,18,21
184:3 193:11,14
194:12,14,16
197:6 210:2,5
210:7,9 214:15
221:11 237:5
238:10,16
witnesses 21:3
Women 10:22
wonder 77:13
wondered
142:9 229:18
wondering
117:21
words 94:11,12
95:2 97:20
99:22 102:14
105:11 108:12
108:22 109:18
112:20 113:4
114:9 120:6
122:6,9,11,25
123:9 125:20
127:7,8 128:10
131:14 135:23
137:2,7 140:18
149:4 151:18,21
152:14 153:4
155:13
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152:3 153:5
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181:10 183:12
187:3,19 196:3
205:11 207:5
213:13 222:12
228:14 235:1
worked 197:23
198:13 200:24
206:18 207:6
207:16 208:13
209:4 213:9
213:13,18
215:25
220:24 236:11
working 142:17
143:12 157:11
187:16 188:7
188:12,20
works 119:9,9
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37:9 67:17
71:18 77:18
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122:20,21
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136:11 166:9
168:13 179:21
180:3 183:5
216:8 233:12
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71:17 72:4,21
75:19 96:15
98:4,12,19
115:13 121:14
121:23 124:16
126:13 133:9
133:15,18
137:2,10 138:1
143:10 144:1,3
145:25 149:19
153:2 161:6
169:6 172:12
177:2 198:2
200:9 206:4
211:24 212:21
219:24 223:8
223:8 224:8
226:20,22,24
227:22,25
228:11 229:11
234:15
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49:18,18 53:9
60:17 61:7,8
106:10 109:15
109:17 116:2,7
118:4,10 132:11
143:18,19
146:8 151:2
156:16 161:22
161:23 163:24
174:7,10
179:25 180:3
197:21 198:11
201:5 223:2,2
231:9 233:14
233:25
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25:6 30:6,11
32:13 34:13
47:12 52:9
59:4,17,21
62:21 74:12
77:21 78:1
96:15,17 97:1,1
97:1,17,20
106:8,22
107:4 115:12,13
117:7,10,13
122:4 134:1
139:11 140:3,18
146:7 148:10
150:10,20
152:1 153:17
170:23,23
174:7 180:11
195:15,24
196:6 207:6
230:20
Yep 227:6
your-all 239:12
your-all's 22:15
you-all 162:6
194:2
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Z 160:9
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123:23
202:24 231:21
Ziegler 7:12
Zweig 89:13,15
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$1,000 95:25
$1.5 239:10
$100 69:8 71:24
114:6
$125 133:6
$135 235:8
$15 163:25
164:3 168:6,14
168:16
$2 72:10
$2.25 56:11
131:11 164:5,18
168:8 175:13
175:16
$2.7 174:10
$20 60:16
158:25
$250,000 79:2
$3,000 133:6
148:9 235:7
$30 60:16
156:16 158:19
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
163:24 164:2
198:12
$4.9 174:8
$467,000 172:1
172:8 204:10
$562 26:14
27:9 54:24
60:15 65:9
66:17 107:3
134:7 150:11,17
151:5,18 152:11
153:3 179:10
$6,750 133:17
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40:5
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1
1 83:3 157:19
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1,200 103:10
1,639 214:8
1,800 214:9
1.3 18:12
10 25:23 30:10
34:12 52:9
53:2 80:16,17
120:3 123:22
134:1 148:10
170:23 202:4
202:4
10-year 170:24
10:45 79:19
100 2:16 28:5,8
58:17 95:12
103:8 122:21
127:24 128:24
129:3 202:5
208:13,14
224:12
100-point
122:18
100-year 55:7
97:4 123:8
109 23:25
243:8
11 34:21,21 42:10
81:4,7 171:14
11TH 1:20
113 2:17
115 2:17
117 2:18
12 12:23 34:21
81:24 103:11
109:23 118:4
170:8 171:24
12:45 141:6
120 2:18
121 2:19
122 2:19
13 82:7
1323 91:6
14 185:1,4
142 2:20
145 2:20
148 2:21
15 31:12,13 42:10
44:8,10 51:1,9
99:15,17 146:7
167:21 195:9
213:14
15th 171:17 180:3
15-minute
193:18
151 2:21
16 13:14 14:2
42:10 81:16
102:21 174:7
196:12
16th 241:10
160 2:22
164 3:2
17 92:1 103:17
117:7,10,13
174:10 194:24
17-and-a-half
195:15,24
170 3:3
18 2:3 14:2
60:16 156:1,3
158:25 194:24
180 3:3
185 3:4,4
19 13:1 157:14
171:25 198:22
212:4,12
193 3:5
195 3:7
1954 9:24 18:14
1956 18:14
198 3:7
1980s 136:23
2
2 7:22 161:23
170:16
2,000 214:10
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169:3
2.1.2 129:17
2.5 174:12
2:20 193:18
20 30:6 49:5
59:4 97:1
106:3 107:4,5
146:7 171:25
174:19,24
175:1,4 192:9
200:23
20th 179:25
241:17,18,20
20-year 30:2
55:7 167:7
200 74:11,13
128:16 130:3
139:10,15
201:23,24
202:7 230:21
2000 9:25
2000s 98:22
2006 96:5
114:18 121:25
125:1
2007 200:20
207:18
2008 103:7
153:8 200:20
207:18
2011 200:20
207:18
2012 110:17
2015 83:17
200:20
207:18
2016 211:25
212:3
2017 46:4 170:9
213:25
2018 1:3,10 6:4
8:18 12:3,4,12
12:18,23,25
13:1,3,16,25
14:2,11,12
109:23 242:11
243:7
2019 19:11 20:17
45:11 53:13
76:6,13 171:16
2020 46:4,7
75:11
2021 25:6 46:3
46:9 75:11
2024 25:6
46:10 158:24
204 91:20
204.700 88:16
88:22 89:3,17
89:19
205 3:8
207 3:8
209 3:9
21 43:3 174:15
195:2
211 3:11 4:9
215 3:12
22 12:25 195:2
222 3:12
227 3:13
23 2:6 111:3
195:2
23-year 140:19
140:21
2350 4:14
243:8
237 3:13
238 3:14
24 106:17 212:13
25 122:21
123:23 150:22
150:23 242:11
25th 13:16
241:15
250 79:3 129:13
129:18
259-2050 4:10
26 12:3,4,12,18
143:15
27 13:16
270 62:6 107:12
28 105:20,24
29 13:3
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3 40:18,19 69:6
127:7,7 171:14
171:24 185:13
191:5
3D 185:2
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3-1 185:10,11,23
186:8 197:17
198:7
3-3 185:13
3.02016 83:23
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3.7 143:16,24
170:6 177:1
3.9 170:25
30 59:17 96:17
97:1 101:25
102:4 107:4
115:12,13
153:17 163:25
197:22 213:16
213:22
30A 44:20 68:8
30B 50:25 81:17
85:17 107:15
117:20
30I 213:22
30J 121:16
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 4/4/2018
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
30K 121:17,19
30Q 81:2 82:14
82:14 85:25
86:9 91:25
30th 170:9
30-year 107:5
164:2
300 123:22
31 106:22
107:19 150:20
31A 49:5 170:14
170:18
314 1:22 4:5,10
4:15
32 109:1
33 21:12
33USC 91:6
34 2:7
35 109:8
3600 4:9
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4 1:10 34:21
42:10 55:19,19
88:15 99:15
127:20 172:22
185:2 205:5
212:11,16
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4th 6:2
4-4 205:5,6
4-6 158:5
185:20,23
186:3
4-7 157:17,18,21
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4-8 224:9
4.1 174:9
4.4 99:16 215:17
4.4.3.1 224:11
4.8 170:23
40 97:1 156:8,17
156:24,25
157:1 186:4,15
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40,000 173:12
192:8
400 130:3
45-day 12:9
450 96:21
47 85:17
480-some
97:21
483 66:18
49.9 53:5
5
5 8:18 40:19
102:24 156:1
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5th 7:23
5,000 148:9
5-year 55:12
5.7 170:23
50 53:5 97:4
103:6 122:20
149:16 231:9
233:14,16,17
233:25
50-point 122:19
50-year 55:6,13
50.1 53:5
50/50 155:7,12
500 131:22
149:16
500,000 52:10
79:3
520 18:12
150:13
55 2:7
56 51:1,9
562 26:24
27:14 30:16,17
60:14 150:22
59 2:8
6
6 83:3 97:15
105:20,24
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6.6 174:14
61 2:8
62 2:9
621-2939 4:5
63101 1:21 4:4
63102 4:10
63103 4:15
243:9
64 2:9
644-2191 1:22
66 2:10
7
7 9:25 13:25
91:1 106:17
194:24 211:22
211:24
7.040 18:17
7.270 80:12
7.6 174:13
70 102:9,16
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711 1:20
714 4:4
73 2:10
74 212:12,20,23
75 122:21
206:16
76 2:11
768-6209 4:15
77 212:8,19
213:6
8
8 40:17 88:15
89:23 109:21
224:22
8C 117:19
8th 14:11,12
80s 98:21 99:1
107:2 137:4
81 2:13
83 2:13
86 205:2
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9 9:24 80:15
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9:00 6:2 241:20
242:11
90 53:2 142:7
91 2:14
92 2:14
94 2:16