HomeMy Public PortalAboutExhibit MSD 52 - Transcript of the May 17, 2018 Technical ConferenceExhibit MSD 52
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 51171201e
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MEETING OF THE RATE COMMISSION OF THE
METROPOLITAN ST. LOUIS SEWER DISTRICT
2018 STORMWATER RATE CHANGE PROCEEDING
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8 TECHNICAL CONFERENCE
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MAY 17, 2018
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18 Reported by:
19 BETH O. ZINK, RPR, CCR, CSR
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
20 711 North 11th Street
St. Louis, Missouri 63101
21 (314)644-2191
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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MICHAEL GORMAN
5 Questions by
Questions by
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Questions by
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Questions by
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Questions by
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Commissioner
Commissioner
Commissioner
Commissioner
Commissioner
Palans
Ziegler
Goss
Ziegler
Brockmann
Commissioner Goss
Chairman Toenjes
Ms. Stump
PAMELA LEMO:NE
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
Questions
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NICOLE YOUNG
Questions
Questions
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Questions
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Questions
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Commissioner Palans
Commissioner Mahfood
Commissioner Goss
Commissioner Ratzki
Ms. Myers
Mr. Neuschafer
Commissioner Brockmann
Commissioner Schoedel
Chairman Toenjes
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
by Commissioner
Schoedel
M..Y.foor:
Palans
Ratzki
Goss
Bresnan_
Goss
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
1 INDEX CONTINUED
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4 NICOLE YOUNG
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5 Questions by Ms. Myers 130
Questions by Mr. Neuschafer 133
6 Questions by Ms. Stump 138
Questions by Commissioner Palans 139
7 Questions by Chairman Toenjes 142
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/1712018
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APPEARANCES
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4 Lisa Stump, Attorney at Law
Brian J. Malone, Attorney at Law
5 Lashly & Baer, P.C.
714 Locust Street
6 St. Louis, Missouri 63101
(314) 621-2939
7 l st ^aer ,.zr_tp �_ a s :� � v.� . ccm
bmalone@lashlybaer.com
8 FOR: The Rate Commission
9 Brandon Neuschafer, Attorney at Law
Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner
10 One Metropolitan Square
211 North Broadway, Suite 3600
;1 St. Louis, Missouri 63102
(314)259-2050
12 brandon.neuscha=er@bryancave.con
EO:c• Missouri Industrial Energy
13 s
Consumers
14 Susan M. Myers, General Counse_L
Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District
�5 235C Market Street
St. Louis, Missouri 63103
16 (314)768-6209
srnyers@stimsd.com
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FOR: Metropolitan St. Louis
Sewer District
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED
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4 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
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Leonard Toenjes, Chair
Mickey Croyle
Tom Ratzki
John L. Stein
Paul Brockmann
Russell Hawes
Mark Schoedel
Don Bresnan
Steve Mahfood
Chan Mahanta
Brad Goss
Gerald Beckmann
Lloyd Palans
Paul Ziegler
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rt (Whereupon, the technical conference commenced
2 at 9:00 A.M.
3 CHAIRMAN name RMAN TCENJES: My is Leonard Toenjes,
4 and I am chair of the Rate Commission of the Metropolitan
5 St Louis Sewer District and will serve as chair of this
6 proceeding.
7 The Charter Plan of the District was approved
8 by the voters of St. Louis and St. Louis County at a
9 special election on February 9, 1934, and amended at a
10 general election on November 7, 2000. The amendment to
1 the Charter Plan established a Rate Commission to review
12 and make recommendations to the District regarding changes
13 in wastewater rates, stormwater rates and tax rates
14 proposed by the District.
15 The e Charter Plan requires the Poard of
organizations to name
�o select or
16 Trustees of the District g
17 delegates to the Rate Commission to ensure a fair
18 representation of all users of the District's services.
19 The Rate commission representative organizations are to
20 represent commercial -industrial users, residential users
L1 and other organizations interested in the operation of the
22 District, including organizations focusing on
23 environmental issues, labor issues, socioeconomic issues,
24 community -neighborhood organizations and other nonprofit
23 organizations.
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1 The Rate Commission currently consists of
2 representatives of Associated General Contractors of St.
3 Louis, St. Louis County Municipal League, Lutheran Senior
4 Services, St. Louis Council of Construction Consumers,
5 Greater St. Louis Labor Council, Missouri Botanical
6 Garden, League of Women Voters of Metro St. Louis, Home
7 Builders Association, Mound City Bar Association, North
8 County, Incorporated, Missouri Coalition for the
9 Environment, the City of Ladue, Engineers Club of St.
10 Louis, Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers, and Education
11 Plus.
12 Upon receipt of a Rate Change Notice from the
13 District, the Rate Commission is to recommend to the Board
14 of Trustees changes in a wastewater, stormwater, or tax
15 rate necessary to pay (i) interest and principal falling
16 due on bonds issued to finance assets of the District,
17 (ii) the costs of operation and maintenance and (iii) such
18 amounts as may be required to cover emergencies and
19 anticipated delinquencies.
20 Further, any change in a rate recommended to
21 the Board of Trustees by the Rate Commission is to be
22 accompanied by a statement that the proposed rate change
23 is (i) consistent with constitutional, statutory or common
24 law as amended from time to time; (ii) enhances the
25 District's ability to provide adequate sewer and drainage
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1 systems and facilities, or related services; (iii is
2 consistent with and not in violation of any covenant or
3 provision relating to any outstanding bonds or
4 indebtedness of the District; (iv) does not impair the
ability of the District to comply with applicable Federal
6 or State laws or regulations as amended from time to time;
7 and (v) imposes a fair and reasonable burden on all
8 classes of ratepayers.
9 The Rate Commission received a Rate Change
10 Notice from the District on February 26, 2018. Under
1i procedural rules adopted by the Rate Commission, any
12 person affected by the Rate Change Proposal had an
13 opportunity to submit an application to intervene in these
14 proceedings. An application to intervene has been filed
15 by the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers. This
16 application has been deemed granted.
17 The Rate Commission originally had until June
18 26, 2018 to issue its report on the proposed Rate Change
19 Notice for the Board. of Trustees of the District. The
20 Rate Commission requested an additional 45 days to issue
21 its report, and on May 1, 2018 the District Board of
22 Trustees granted the Rate Commission's request. The Rate
23 Commission must now issue its report on or before August
24 IC, 2018.
25 On February 26, 2018 the District submitted to
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1 the Rate Commission prepared Direct Testimony of Brian
2 Hoelscher, Susan M. Myers, Richard L. Unverferth, Marion
3 M. Gee, Thomas A. Beckley and Henrietta Locklear.
4 On March 12, 2018 the Rate Commission
5 submitted its First Discovery Request to the District. On
6 March 22, 2018 the District filed its responses. On March
7 19, 2018 the Rate Commission submitted its Second
8 Discovery Request to the District, to which the District
9 responded on March 29, 2018.
10 On April 4, 2018 a Technical Conference was
11 held on the record regarding the Rate Setting Documents
12 and the Direct Testimony filed with the Rate Commission by
13 the District. The purpose of the Technical Conference was
14 to provide the District an opportunity to answer questions
15 propounded by members of the Rate Commission; then by any
16 Intervenor, and finally by Lashly & Baer, legal counsel to
17 the Rate Commission.
18 On April 10, 2018 the Rate Commission
19 submitted its Third Discovery Request to the District, to
20 which the District responded on April 20, 2018. On April
21 18, 2018 Intervenor Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers
22 submitted its First Discovery Request to the District, to
23 which the District responded on April 27, 2018.
24 On May 2, 2018 the Rate Commission Consultant
25 and Intervenor Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers
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submitted Rebuttal Testimony.
2 This Technical Conference will be held cn_ the
3 record regarding the Rebuttal Testimony. Each person
4 submitting Rebuttal Testimony shall answer questions
propounded by members cf the Rate Commission, the
District, then the Intervenor, and finally by our lega?
counsel.
Following the Technical Conference, the
District, the Intervenor, and the Rate Commission
Consultant may submit prepared surrebuttal testimonand
schedules. A Technical Conference will be held on the
record regarding the surrebuttal testimony. At that
Technical Conference, each
person submitting surrebuttal
testimony shall answer questions propounded by members of
the Rate Commission, then by the District, and then by the
Intervenor, and finally by our legal counsel.
Ratepayers who do not wish to intervene will
be permitted to participate in a series cf on -the -record
public hearing sessions which began on May 8, 2018.
Who is here cn behalf of the Metropolitan St
Louis Sewer District?
MS. MYERS: Susan Myers.
CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Who is here on behalf of
the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers?
MR. NEUSCHAFER: Brandon Neuschafer.
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1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Also present are Pamela
2 Lemoine of Black & Veatch, Consultant to the Rate
3 Commission, Nicole Young of Lion, CSG, and Lisa Stump and
4 Brian Malone of Lashly Baer, legal counsel to the Rate
Commission.
6 Under the Rate Commission's operational rules.
7 no person shall be required to answer questions for a
8 total period of more than three hours, and the time shall
9 be evenly divided among all of the participants desiring
10 to ask questions. Following questions by members of the
11 Rate Commission, I will attempt to allocate the time
12 equally among the participants and our legal counsel. To
13 the extent that the District, the Intervenor or legal
14 counsel has not completed the questions at the expiration
15 of that person's allotted time, and to the extent that
16 time remains, such person will be permitted to propound
17 additional questions until the three hours has expired.
18 Are there any additional procedural matters?
19 There being no further procedural matters, Mr.
20 Neuschafer, are you ready to present those persons for
21 whom you filed testimony on behalf of the Missouri
22 Industrial Energy Consumers?
23 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Yes.
24 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please proceed.
25 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Thank you. My name is
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Brandon Neuschafer and I represent the Missouri Industrial
2 Energy Consumers. With me today is Mr. Mike Gorman_ who
3 crepared the written testimony that was submitted on
4 behalf of the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers.
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Gorman, is the
6 testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth,
7 and nothing but the truth?
S MR. GORMAN: It is.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Does any member
1S of the Rate Commission have any questions for Mr. Gorman
11 at this time? Ms. Myers, do you have questions for Mr.
12 Gorman? Oh, I'm sorry. Please proceed.
13 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER PALANS:
14 Q. Mr. Gorman, my name is Lloyd Palans and I
15 would like to ask some questions with regard to your
16 direct testimony. Starting with your summary --
17 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I don't think the mics are
18 working at all.
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(Off the record; technical difficulties.)
20 Q. Mr. Gorman, T would like to start with the
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summary of your direct testimony, and just in Paragraph 1
you reference MSD's own policy states that it will only
make investments in the public stormwater system or
infrastructure that is located in easements where MSD has
rights to access or is property owned by MSD. With regard
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1 to that statement, is there a written policy that you're
2 referring to?
3 A. There is. It was referenced in my testimony.
4 Q. Perhaps you could point me to that policy
5 reference.
6 A. I can provide that to you at a later time if
7 that would help expedite things a little bit. Is that --
8 I don't know if I have that directly in front of me. It
9 was part of the discovery responses that we reviewed and
10 other information related to this case.
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Q. But this is a written policy that you're
12 referring to, not an oral policy that somebody just
13 recited; is that correct?
14 A. I need to confirm that. That is my
15 understanding, it is a formal policy of MSD.
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Q.
Staying with that same Paragraph 1, the very
17 last sentence, "Therefore, MSD's proposal to include
18 stormwater capital projects on private property should not
19 be allowed." That is your statement, correct?
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A. It is, unless -- it's my understanding that
21 there's legal restrictions on that, I'm not a lawyer, but
22 it's also consistent with standard practices for utilities
23 that they don't make investments on private property.
24 Q. But just to help me out here, stormwater is a
25 region -wide problem, is it not?
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A. Yes.
2 Q. It affects both public and private property,
3 does it not?
4 A. That's true, but that's true for all utility
5 companies in terms of public service.
6 Q. And stormwater affects hundreds, if not
7 thousands of properties within the district, correct?
8 A. It does, yes.
9 Q. And it -- stormwater remediation benefits the
district's service area as a whole, does it not?
11 A. :t could, if the projects are planned with
12 that objective specifically identified.
13 Q. We're talking about stormwater remediation on
14 500-plus projects with a $562 million capital cost
15 requirement.
16 A. Well
17 Q. Is it your testimony that that remediation
18 does not add value to the community as a whole?
19 A. It is my testimony, yes, because there hasn't
20 been explicit identification of projects and description
21 of the benefits that those projects create. That's the
22 limitation of --
23 Q. And that's where I want to go with you.
24 That's where I'm headed here- Let me just ask you an
25 overall question, and that is is the rate revenue funding
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1 that is proposed adequate to remediate all the flooding
2 and erosion issues within the district?
3 A. I don't believe that's been represented.
4 It's ultimately what we can conclude based on the --
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Q.
Is that your conclusion?
6 A. My conclusion is there's inadequate planning
7 to justify $30 million a year of revenue collection from
8 customers because the projects are, at very best, a
9 preliminary list of projects that may benefit the
10 stormwater erosion and collection objectives of the
11 district.
12 Q. Mr. Gorman, I don't necessarily disagree with
13 you. Were you present when the testimony was taken on
14 April 4 when the district provided witnesses and
15 testified?
16 A. I was not present for that, no.
17 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review the
18 transcript from that April 4 presentation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in fact, you referred to various portions
21 of that transcript in your testimony today, do you not?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And you read and are familiar with the fact
24 that the representation was made that this $562 million
25 amount is an estimated cost; is that correct?
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A. t seems to be a preliminary estimated cost,
2 yes.
3 Q. And in fact, the Exhibit MSD-48 references on
4 Page 6 that it's a $562 million total estimated cost,
5 correct?
6 A. Yeah, but I'm emphasizing a preliminary
7 estimated cost. I don't believe the detailed engineering
8 has been conducted to create what would normally be a
9 reasonable budget estimate that is appropriate for either
10 setting rates or asking bond holders to fund.
1_ Q. It's my understanding that the district has
12 represented that this was presented as a very quick
13 analysis -- on a very quick analysis, correct?
14 A. I believe that's correct, yes.
15 Q. And it was, in their words, rough estimate,
16 right?
17 A. I believe. I would have to double check
18 scec fically, but generally it was a preliminary estimate,
19 first cut at projecting what these projects will cost.
20 Q. And the testimony at the April 4 hearing was
21 that engineering spent maybe a few minutes looking at each
22 project, correct?
23 A. I would have to check the transcript on that,
24 but it is :y understanding it's a preliminary estimate.
25 Q. And it's based on stormwater complaints that
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1 are made to the district, correct?
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2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And it's conceptual in nature, right?
4 A. You're asking very specific descriptions of
their testimony. I don't have it in front of me, but
6 generally it is a preliminary estimate.
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Q.
And it's based upon a minimal amount of
8 detailed information, correct?
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A. That's my understanding.
10 Q. And those conceptual costs as part of that
11 transcript indicated that it did not include any easement
12 acquisition costs, correct?
13 A. I need to verify that, but I believe that's
14 correct.
15 Q. And the $562 million of projects would be done
16 over a number of years; is that your understanding?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. Does that $562 million take into account
19 inflationary costs of construction and inflationary costm
20 of engineering services?
21 A. I believe it's a present value estimate of
22 cost.
23 Q. Mr. Gorman, your testimony makes reference
24 that you believe that the district should be incurring
25 debt to fund the stormwater capital improvements. Is that
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your -- a fair characterization of your testimony?
2 A. Well, nc. You're close. T mean it should be
3 considering the use of debt for capital program of over a
4 half a million dollars, yes.
5 Q. I once represented a client writ, ran a large
6 corporation who told me that his task, first task as a
7 chairman of a business is to protect the balance sheet.
8 Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
A. Well, protecting the balance sheet is one
aspect of balancing the interest of the public interest
11 and the prices customers have to pay for utility services,
12 so it's a factor, but it's --
13 Q. Incurring debt --
4 A. -- not the only factor.
15 Q. Pardon me. Incurring debt puts stress on a
16 balance sheet, does it not?
17 A. Putting -- it does, yes, but keep in mind that
18 ;f it's all rate revenue funding, then that means business
19 customers of the MSD may have to take on more debt to pay
20 high sewer bills because there will be less internal cash
21 available to those customers to make investments in their
22 own businesses. So there's a consequence of the customers
23 based on the pricing structure of the MSD.
24 That's why there needs to be consideration of
25 a financing structure that achieves the objectives that
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1 are consistent with the public interest providing
2 wastewater and stormwater utility service, but at the same
3 time minimizing price to customers so customers can afford
4 to pay their bills and operate their businesses or run
their households.
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Q.
Borrowing costs money, does it not?
A. Borrowing has an interest rate, yes, it does,
8 and there's an opportunity cost for funding with rate
revenue to customers of the district, so there is a
10 capital cost on both ends of the utility and customer
11 spectrum.
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Q. There's certain compliance costs that also are
13 associated with borrowing money, correct? You have to
14 comply with loan covenants, a loan agreement, various
15 representations and warranties, right?
16 A. Well, they already -- that is true, but MSD is
17 already maintaining their financial books and records in
18 accordance with the Securities and Exchange Commission
19 that allows them to issue bonds.
20 Q. And also there's some legal --
21 A. Continuation of their current --
22 Q. I didn't mean to interrupt you, sir. I'm
23 sorry.
24 A. I don't think that would add additional cost
25 to the MSD, because they're already conducting their
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financial statement in accordance with SEC rules that
2 allows them to sell bonds to the public.
3 Q. There's legal fees associated with borrowing
4 money, is there not?
A. There is.
E Q. Are you familiar with the consent decree that
7 the district is complying with?
8 A. For wastewater collection, yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the cost to the district
10 for compliance with that consent decree?
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A. I am, yes.
Q.
And $4.7 billion is my understanding of what
13 that cost of compliance is over a 23-year period, correct?
14 A. That was the original estimate, but yeah, that
15 is correct.
16 Q. And what would be the source of the funds to
fulfill that $4,7 billion expenditure requirement?
18 A. Well, that's the subject of the wastewater
19 rate cases that have been going on for something in the
20 area of 12 years, which T have participated in all cf
21 those rate cases, and the funding sources for
22 wastewater capital program is a combination of rate
23 revenue funding and bond funding.
24 Q. So the source of money to fund $4.7 billion
25 comes from ratepayers and also borrowed funds, right?
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1 A. Well, yes, but the rates that ratepayers pay
2 are adequate to provide rate revenue and equity funding
3 for the capital program and ratepayers also pay the debt
4 service on those bonds.
5
Q.
Mr. Gorman, it was represented in response to
6 interrogatories by the district that the district's
7 current debt is $1.5 billion, and that was on MSD Exhibit
8 Number 36, Page 239. So let's assume that that is the
9 correct number as the record would reflect, $1.5 billion.
10 The district is going to be required to
11 substantially take on additional debt required by the
12 consent decree, will it not?
13 A. It will. In the last rate case I believe I
14 testified that based on the district's projections, they
15 will continue to add debt to their balance sheet and fund
16 the capital improvements -- I have to check this, but it's
17 around 45 percent rate revenue funding and 55 percent bond
18 funding, but at the -- it was just about -- based on the
19 last rate case, they were just about at the end of the
20 major capital programs of that wastewater consent decree
21 correction.
22 At the end of that, then the need for the
23 utility to take on significant amounts of debt will start
24 to mitigate, if not slow down significantly, and from that
25 point forward, rather than designing rates for a certain
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percentage of rate revenue funding and debt service
2 funding on wastewater programs, the objective, that I will
3 be advocating for anyway, is that rates should be designed
4 for maintaining an adequate debt service coverage and
5 maintaining credit standing; that the district can start
6 to pay down the debt in a reasonable and responsible
7 fashion.
Q. Mr. Gorman, if the district were to incur debt
9 to finance the stormwater capital program that is
10 proposed, it would mean that there would be less ability
11 to incur debt to fulfill that $4.7 billion requirement
12 under the consent decree?
13 A. Well, the use of debt has an affordability
14 component which the district can only take on so much debt
15 based on the income strength of its customers, so there is
16 limits to how much debt the community can afford, that's
17 true.
18 But then on the other hand, if there's limits
19 on how much debt the community can afford based on those
20 income levels, then there should also be consideration of
21 the rate impacts on those same customers by charging them
22 a higher price for stormwater remediaticn_ without debt
23 than they would be able to do with debt, and that analysis
24 may tell us that while the stormwater collection projects
25 may be worthwhile, the district just can't afford it right
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1 now. They need to wait and implement that at some point
2 in the hopefully not too distant future.
3 Q. Mr. Gorman, the district is r p oposing a $30
4 million revenue stormwater remediation program to fund
approximately $562 million capital program. I'm going to
6 go back to what we talked about a short while ago. On a
7 scale of whether you are very confident, confident or not
8 confident at all that this $30 million is adequate to
9 fully address all the capital requirements that are
10 needed, what is your position?
11
A. Well, my position in terms of setting rates is
12 the company's justification for collecting $30 million a
13 year is inadequate. If the district is going to go to
14 bondholders, they have to have good engineering estimates,
15 exactly what they're going to do and what they expect the
16 costs of those projects to be.
17 Customers should get the same kind of
18 protection. They don't have those engineering studies to
19 back up their rate proposal in this case. Whether $30
20 million will -- per year will fund this program,
21 eventually it would over time, I would imagine, but it may
22 not -- the timing of the projects, priority of the
23 projects, the immediate need to make some of these
24 projects has not yet been determined, so bottom line is I
25 think they're asking customers to pay for stormwater
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reraediation based on inadequate planning and imprudent
2 planning from a rate setting standpoint, so it shouldn'
t
3 be approved. From a practical standpoint, would they be
4 able to achieve their projects with $30 million a year?
think they could, but what we don't know is whether or not
6 there's a timing -- timing element to some of these
7 projects that will allow them tc be completed in a timely
8 manner based on the $30 million a year collection.
9
Q.
This proposal is based upon no external
10 borrowing, correct?
12
A. It is.
Q.
Is based solely upon ratepayers funding the
13 $30 million, correct?
14
15
16 inadequate from the ratepayers, the funds received from
17 ratepayers, is it adequate or inadequate to remediate all
18 of the stormwater capital projects within the district?
19 A. I think that's kind of what : ust answered.
A. Correct.
Q.
And you believe that this is adequate or
20 I don't think it's adequatefrom a rate -making standpoint.
21 Bondholders are protected from insuring that the proceeds
22 of a bond issue will be used for specific capital programs
23 only and those capital programs will be managed reasonably
24 and efficiently.
25 I think customers should get the same
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1 protection, and I don't think MSD has yet completed the
2 detailed engineering plans to identify projects that need
3 to be done versus those that they may want to do first; in
4 other words, identify priorities of projects that help
5 establish the urgency of the project or whether or not the
6 project could be done over some period of time.
Q. The current proposal envisions no third party
funds to be contributed to stormwater projects; is that
correct?
10 A. That is my understanding, yes.
11
Q•
Do you believe that it would be a good policy
12 decision on the part of the district to encourage third
13 party funds to contribute to the remediation programs?
14
A. That's actually in my testimony, is based on
15 the projects, after they have been clearly identified and
16 the benefits of those projects have been estimated, then
17 it would be appropriate for the district to consider
18 sharing the cost of those projects or requiring --
19 attempting to require other parties to fund the project
20 themselves. That would include private property owners,
21 could include municipalities or some other stakeholder
22 that benefits from the project.
23 Q. I don't disagree, and from opening this up to
24 any stakeholder contribution, be it private, corporate,
25 business, nonprofit, municipality, any third party
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1 contribution would remediate these projects that are in
2 need of fixing, correct?
3 A. I believe it would, yes.
4 Q. And it would get our projects fixed faster and
5 with less funds expended by the district?
6 A. Yeah. The remediation would be to the impact
7 on MSD ratepayers, so 1 think other parties contributing
8 to the cost of that would reduce the benefit -- the burden
9 on MSD ratepayers from that standpoint it would remediate
10 the impact. And I believe there is ust a fairness
17 standpoint that if private property owners or
12 municipalities or primary beneficiaries, and MSD is a
13 stakeholder in that process also, it might be appropriate
14 for a partnership to move forward with the project or
15 there might be instances where MSD really shouldn't have
16 to pick up any part of that cost.
17 Q. Even if the proposal as it is presented would
18 be voted on and approved and a $30 million rate proposal
19 was put into effect within the district, it would still be
20 beneficial to have third party funds contributed to
21 remediate these capital projects and allow the district to
22 use its available funds to fix other projects that are in
23 need of remediation, correct?
24 A. I would agree with that. I would state it a
25 little differently, that even if the $30 million a year
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1 collection is approved, MSD still has obligations to
2 efficiently and prudently manage how it spends that money
3 and that would include considering whether or not there
A are other stakeholders that should contribute to the cost
5 of those projects.
6 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have no
7 further questions, Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans_ Do
9 any of the other Rate Commissioners have any questions at
10 this time?
11 COMMISSIONER ZIEGLER: Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please.
13 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER ZIEGLER:
14 Q. It's my understanding that there's inadequate
15 engineering at this point to support the rate?
16 A. It's my understanding there's only preliminary
17 estimates of the projects.
18
Q.
Is this a new area that MSD is entering into,
19 meaning stormwater remediation?
20 A. Not a new area, but I think there are certain
21 projects that they want to move forward.
22 Q. Would it be prudent for them to spend
23 significant amount of money to draw up engineering without
24 funds committed to those projects prior to --
25 A. Well, it's kind of -- what comes first, the
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1 chicken or the egg. If they want customers to pay for the
2 projects, then they have to show which projects need to be
3 completed and why they need to be completed, and to get
4 bond funding they would have to make that demonstration to
5 the bondholders, so I think the customers should get the
6 same protections.
7 We don't know, without complete engineering
6 studies, at least in an initial manner, whether or not
9 these Projects need to be done.
10 Q. Typically what is the percentage of cost for
11 engineering on a project percentage -wise?
12 A. I believe it depends on the project_
13 Q. Any estimate at all?
14 A. = would hate to guess without doing a little
15 research to give you a good estimate of that, but I do
16 know that based on the wastewater Project, wastewater
17 rate -setting proposals, that MSD has built up their
18 engineering staff just for managing these capital
19 projects, so I think they would have internal engineering
20 capabilities to give better estimates cf what these
21 project costs would be, and the cost cf that engineering
22 staff is already being paid for by MSD.
23 I don't think there's an incremental cost to
24 taking their initial estimates of these projects to the
25 next stage, get a better estimate of at least the larger
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1 projects which they think have the greatest benefits,
2 potential benefits.
3 Q. Is that any deception to the public to use
4 engineers that were brought on staff for wastewater
5 treatment -- or wastewater remediation to now use those
6 for stormwater remediation that is not part of the scope
7 currently with MSD?
8 A. Well, if MSD believes that the stormwater
9 projects are within their utility mandate, then I think
10 they are conducting MSD's normal business.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Goss.
12 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
13 Q. Did I hear your testimony correctly that you
14 said that MSD hadn't given any prioritization as far as
15 projects?
16 A. It's my understanding that all of them are
17 preliminary estimates of what the capital costs would be
18 for these projects.
19 Q. So is it your understanding that MSD hasn't
20 considered these projects in its stormwater facility
21 planning report?
22 A. I believe it has considered the projects, but
23 my understanding is the actual costs and benefits of the
24 projects are based on preliminary estimates.
25 Q. And are you familiar with MSD's project
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prioritization system?
2 A. Not in great detain..
3 Q. Do you know if MSD has used that priority
4 system to rate these various projects that it's
5 considering?
6 A. Not to my knowledge. They have not
7 established priority of these projects. I don't believe
8 there's been detailed engineering that would allow for a
9 prioritization of the projects because engineering studies
10 of the projects haven't been completed.
11 Q. Now, you said you weren't familiar with MSD's
12 prioritization system in detail; is that right?
l3
A. I did not review it specifically for this
14 testimony, that's correct.
?5 Q. So if you look at that prioritization system,
16 it's not terribly detailed, if you recall -- do you recall
17 it at all?
18 A. It's been a while since : looked at that. I
19 did in conjunction with some wastewater cases, but I did
20 not for this case.
21 Q. Just to walk you through a little bit, they
22 have a rating system with points and they consider whether
23 a structure is being affected and there's a certain amount
24 of points associated with a structure being affected.
25 They consider frequency of the problems and they give
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24
25
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1 points associated with that. So there is, at a gross
2 level, a system that they use to prioritize and rate
3 projects, and do you believe that system is inadequate to
4 rate the projects MSD is considering at this point?
5 A. I think it should be conducted along with the
6 next phase of actually estimating what the costs of these
7 projects will be along with the benefits of these
8 projects. It's not my testimony that the prioritization
9 methodology is not reasonable. It's that the whole
10 planning process needs to be taken to the next level to
11 identify what actually needs to be done and priority of
12 the projects and how much money is needed by the district,
13 and then, most importantly, what's the best funding
14 structure for accomplishing that prioritized project list.
15 Q. So you don't believe it's adequate if MSD has
16 undertaken a prioritization review based on methodology
17 that's in the prioritization system; that's adequate to
18 evaluate these projects, is that what I heard?
19 A. I think you're confusing -- what I understand
20 MSD has already done is spent relatively little time
21 reviewing each of the individual projects. I think their
22 own testimony said some of their engineers spent very
23 little time on this. From -- and that's why I think the
engineering is not adequate.
What I think the MSD is capable of doing and
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have done with other projects is more detailed cost
2 estimate what these Projects will cost and what the
3 priority list of those Projects should be based on
4 prioritization assessment similar to what you're
5 describing. I don': believe those later steps have
6 actually occurred for these stormwater remediation
7 projects.
8 Q. So you don't believe it's reasonable or
9 prudent for MSD to do that as a second step, assuming this
10 funding were to be approved?
11 A. T_ think it's prudent and reasonable for them
12 to do it in support of requesting rate revenue funding
13 from customers and/or bond funding for this program. So I
14 think their request for race revenue collection from
13 customers prior to completing that engineering study makes
16 this rate filing premature.
17 COMMISSIONER GCSS: Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER ZIEGLER: One last question.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please.
20 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER ZIEGLER:
21 Q. Is there somebody better regionally equipped
22 to handle stormwater remediation projects better than MSD,
23 in your opinion? Because you recognized earlier it's a
24 regional problem, so I'm just curious if there's somebody
25 better to handle this regional problem.
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1 A. I don't know if there's anybody better to do
2 it, but I do think that MSD, if they're a qualified
3 candidate, should do it in a responsible way, and that
4 means do detailed engineering designs on the project, cost
5 estimates and prioritization of those projects.
6 While MSD might be the best entity to move
7 forward with that, they still have an obligation to
8 conduct themselves in a prudent and reasonable manner and
9 to make sure that the rates they charge their customers
10 reflect only prudent capital expenditures proposed by the
11 district and that the costs they want to recover from
12 customers are reasonable, and that customer protection
13 element has not yet been done by MSD.
14 And to sum it up, while they may be the best
15 candidate to move forward with these projects, they still
16 have an obligation to protect customers, and in order to
17 do that, more detailed engineering plans need to be
18 completed, prioritization list of the projects need to be
19 made and more confidence that they're not asking for more
20 revenue from customers than what's really needed to build
21 out these stormwater remediation activities as part of the
22 overall rate plan.
23 COMMISSIONER ZIEGLER: Nothing further.
24 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Brockmann.
25 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN:
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Q. Mr. Gorman, are you aware, how do
2 municipalities come up with additional funds? There seems
3 to be a lot of interest in third party contributions for
4 regional problems. How -- are you aware of funding
5 sources that municipalities have to do this?
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
20
21
22
23
24
25
A.
Well, it depends on the municipality, but if
it's a project that benefits the municipality, then the
municipality typically will have some obligations to get
the residents of the community to do what's in the public
interest.
Municipalities generally generate revenue from
various sources, sales tax, property tax, other levies on
the community, and they have to prioritize how tney use
that revenue tc benefit the community.
Q.
Are you aware of any special sales taxes that
municipalities collect specifically for stormwater?
A. I am not.
Q.
I can't tell you all the details, but I know
the state legislature allows certain
collect a certain half cent, quarter
stormwater
there with
municipalities to
cent called parks and
sales tax, and it seems to me there's money out
some municipalities, but I have no idea how
that coordination happens with those municipalities and
spending the money, if they spend it on stormwater -- if
they spend it on stormwater, maybe it all goes to parks, I
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1 don't know, but it seems to me there needs to be some
2 regional coordination. Do you have any thoughts on how
3 that might occur?
4 A. Well, I think that's part of what we need to
5 have more information on in deciding how much of the cost
6 should be the responsibility of the MSD and that would be
7 benefitting from better cost estimates of the projects and
8 the expected benefits of the projects and who are the
9 beneficiaries of the projects. If it's a municipality,
10 then there may be -- it may be appropriate for MSD to
11 either present the concept to the municipality for them to
12 take on the project or to support the municipality in some
13 way including, in part, financial support.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Goss.
15 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
16
Q.
Just to follow up on that, is it your
17 testimony that in order to be reasonable and prudent, MSD
18 should incorporate a cost sharing model as part of this
19 rate proposal?
20 A. I think that -- yes, I think that is
21 consistent with insuring that MSD customers only pay costs
22 that are prudently incurred by the MSD, and to the extent
23 MSD can fund projects in partnership with other
24 stakeholders, I think they should be obligated to pursue
25 that possibility.
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COMMISSIONER GOSS: Okay. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Other questions from any
3 other Rate Commissioner?
4 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
Q. Mr. Gorman, I have a question. I've had the
6 opportunity to write a textbook on construction
7 estimating, and there are levels of estimates. There is
8 the order of magnitude, intermediary, preliminary,
9 substantive, definitive, all these different levels of
10 estimates that go through the gestation of a project from
11 concept to completion.
12 You stated a couple times that you really are
13 not comfortable with the level of estimate that MSD has
14 done on these projects. At what level of estimate does
15 MIEC get comfortable?
16 A. I think that's a fair question. w don't know
17 if I can't give you a complete answer cn that, but if they
18 had specific projects which they say they think needs to
19 be done in the next five years, projects need to be done
20 over the next 13 years, projects that need to be done when
21 they can afford to do them, would be helpful, and then
22 with that prioritization explaining exactly what it is the
23 project -- how the project will benefit the community and
24 the public and then the best estimate that they're able to
25 put together on what the costs cf the project will be in
1
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1 the next five years, next 10 years or --
2 Q. Well, the best estimate is 100 percent. Is
3 that your expectation?
A. I don't understand what you mean 100 percent.
Q. The best estimate would be the definitive
6 estimate that is -- is that your expectation for moving
7 forward with funding? Most -- I think most municipalities
8 or most agencies do a preliminary estimate where they get
9 a general idea of a cost range. It's a model that MODOT
10 uses where their internal engineers do a project, put it
11 out for bid, they get the bids back, they see where it is
12 along that range.
13 I guess I'm just trying to figure out,
14 prioritization is one thing. The level of estimate is
15 another thing, and what sort of level of estimate you all
16 are shooting for in order to get your comfort level at
17 comfort.
18 A. For rate -making purposes, when a utility comes
19 to a regulatory commission for a new capital investment,
20 they have a level of project detail that includes at least
21 a preliminary estimate from several contractors. There
22 may be contingencies within those project estimates for
23 materials, for labor, for time periods, but based on that
24 detailed estimate of what their actual cost is expected to
25 be for that project, that's the kind of detail normally --
A
4
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that's normally used for rate -making purposes as well as
2 the benefits those projects could increase to the
3 customers who are going to pay for that Project.
CHAIRMAN TCENJES: Thank you. Any further
5 questions? Thank you. Ms. Myers, do you have questions
6 for Mr. Gorman on behalf of the district?
7 MS. MYERS: The district does not have any
8 questions.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Myers. Ms.
"IC Stump, do you have any questions for Mr. Gorman on behalf
11 of the Rate Commission?
12 MS. STUMP: I have just a couple, please.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please ccire forward.
14 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
15 Q. How are you, Mr. Gorman?
16 A. Fine.
17 Q. We've done this before,
18 A. Yes, we have.
19 Q. So you understand that I represent the Rate
20 Commission, and really I'm just going to ask a couple
21 questions and try to clarify for the record a couple
22 things.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Do you have your testimony with you?
25 A. I do.
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1 Q. On Page 8.
2 A. All right.
3 Q. And you had some discussion with Mr. Palans,
4 but I just want to clarify a couple things. You state in
5 answer to your question, "There is simply no justification
6 for MSD making improvements on property it does not own,
7 and is not part of the MSD public stormwater or wastewater
8 utility infrastructure." And then later you say, "MSD
9 should be obligated to justify that all projects it
10 undertakes are made in the public interest and within MSD
11 investment policy constraints."
12 Can it be that -- can a project -- in your
13 opinion, can a project be done on private property and
14 still be within the public interest?
15 A. It's possible it could be, but it also has to
16 be within the MSD investment policy experience, and in
17 that instance I think MSD would be obligated to explain
18 why MSD ratepayers benefit from that project.
19 Q. But it's possible that a project that's on
20 private property that's to fix erosion could have a public
21 benefit?
22 A. I would think there is a possibility, yes.
23 Q. On Page 10, in the answer to your question you
24 state that, "'Pith 75 percent of the assets being owned by
25 MSD, a financing structure that uses a mix of bond and
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1 rate revenue funding is worthy of consideration in this
2 proceeding, and appears to be within MSD's authority to
3 use bond funding on at least a portion of the proposed
4 stormwater capital program."
5 Is it your recommendation that it should be 75
6 percent bond funding and 25 percent revenue?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. it should be a prudent level of bond and rate
10 revenue funding. Consideration should be impact on debt
11 -- the structure of any bond funding should consider the
12 financial impact on MSD and its ability to maintain its
13 bond rating, so that would require consideration of debt
14 service coverage, which 's a credit rating factor, primary
15 credit rating factor. :t should also consider
affordability by customers in terms of issuing bonds for
17 the stormwater, recognizing additional bonds for the
18 wastewater consent decree program.
19 With that information and identification of
20 the projects and a prioritization of projects, a program
21 that allows the MSD to move forward with the stormwater
22 remediation costs in a way to mitigate the price to
23 customers and maximize the benefits to the public should
24 be pursued.
25 MS. STUMP: I'm just making sure. The
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1 commissioners did all my work over here. I do not have
2 any further questions.
3 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump. Mr.
4 Neuschafer, do you have any further questions for Mr.
5 Gorman?
6 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do not.
7 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Do any of the Rate
8 Commissioners have any further questions for Mr. Gorman at
9 this time? Thank you, Mr. Gorman.
10 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Stump, are you ready to
12 present persons for whom you filed testimony on behalf of
13 the Rate Commission?
14 MS. STUMP: Yes. Pamela Lemoine.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Lemoine, is the
16 testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth,
17 and nothing but the truth?
18 MS. LEMOINE: Yes.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Do any members
20 of the Rate Commission have any questions for Ms. Lemoine
21 at this point?
22 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Palans.
24 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER PALANS:
25
Q. Good morning, MS. Lemoine.
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1 A. Good morning,
2 Q. Ms. Lemoine, I would just like to embellish a
3 little bit on -- or understand is a better word -- some of
4 the statements in your testimony. In Paragraph 3. on Page
3 of your testimony you say, "The proposed stormwater
6 capital rate will fund capital projects and address
7 outstanding flooding and erosion issues throughout the
8 district. Such projects have not been possible to date
9 due to lack of funding."
10 Is it your testimony that this proposed
11 capital rate, $30 million per year, will guarantee that
�2 all capital projects identified will be remediated within
13 the district?
14 A. No, 1 don't believe there's any guarantee of
15 chat.
16 Q. And, in fact, the current project list that
17 the district has provided is, in their words, based on a
18 minimal amount of detailed information available regarding
19
geotechnical conditions, utility relocation requirements,
20 easement requirements and other site -specific issues that
21 have the potential to significantly affect the projects'
22 eventual construction costs. Is that -- that's contained
23 in the actual proposal, MSD Exhibit 1, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And the $562 million of projects that have
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1 been identified, it's going to take a number of years to
2 complete even if the $30 million per year is approved and
3 the rates are received, correct?
4
A. That is correct.
Q.
So that over a period of time, you expect that
6 $562 million cost to stay the same, static at $562
7 million, or will it be materially more?
8 A. I would anticipate that that value will
9 change, whether materially -- in a material manner or not,
10 I couldn't say, but yes, certainly as the district moves
11 forward with projects, additional information is gathered,
12 perhaps other projects arising that perhaps aren't
13 identified at this time, all of those factors may change
14 that total cost.
15
Q.
And if you would, please, turn to Page 7 of
16 your testimony, and it's Question 19, Paragraph A. Tell
17 me when you have it in front of you.
18 A. Yes. My pagination is a little different,
19 so --
20 Q. In Paragraph A you indicate in the second
21 sentence that, "Based upon the rate proposal, it appears
22 that the proposed funding method may generate sufficient
23 revenue to fund the district's projected stormwater
24 capital costs at the level of spending indicated in its
25 rate proposal." Correct?
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A. Correct.
2 Q. And you use a word that I want to focus on,
3 and that is the proposed funding method may generate, as
4 opposed to will or shall. Is there a reason why you
3 selected that word?
6 A. Yes. I think as you proceed with my testimony
7 in the supplements below, I itemized some of the factors
8 that could affect the overall funding of the program.
9 Q. And the proposed funding method may generate
11
sufficient funding revenues if the sizing and the pricing
costs are accurate, correct?
12 A. Correct. Correct.
13 Q. And those pricing costs and sizing remains the
14 same as it is today, correct?
A. Yes.
16 Q. Without inflationary costs?
17 A. I believe that the -- there are inflationary
18 -- based on my review of some of the information that was
19 provided, I believe that within the rate model those
20 inflationary factors are incorporated in the project cost
21 estimates in the years that are included in the rate
22 model.
23 Q. But you understand, and you were present on
24 April 4 when the district provided its testimony that
2� these $562 million of identified capital projects
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1 represent a very quick analysis, engineering spent maybe a
2 few minutes looking at each report, rough estimates based
3 on stormwater complaints, conceptual in nature, minimal
4 amount of detailed information; you understand that, do
you not?
6 A. Yes, that's my understanding, based on the
7 testimony, that it was conceptual cost estimating.
8 Q. And based upon that concept, are you
9 confident, somewhat confident, or not confident at all
10 that $562 million today will fix all the problems within
11
the district?
12 A. I think, you know, T would defer that to
13 Nicole, that question to Nicole Young, as the engineer
14 that's really been focused on the capital program. In
15 general, the program is -- you know, the $562 million, my
16 understanding is is that conceptual cost analysis that was
17 used to help inform, along with public input, the level of
18 funding that they want to set this program at.
19 So the question becomes more not so much is
20 the $30 million adequate, but is -- is the 30-year time
21 horizon going to be required to complete this list of
22 projects. If costs are more, based on this level of
23 funding, it would take longer to accomplish all the
24 projects.
25 Q. Ms. Lemoine, do you think it would be a good
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1 thing or a bad thing if third party funds would be
2 encouraged for contribution in a quasi -public -private
3 partnership to remediate our projects within the district?
4 A. Certainly third party funds, as has been
5 testified to, would provide an additional funding source
6 that would help enhance the completion of the projects
more quickly.
8 Q. Third party sources are a good thing, are they
9 not?
i0 A. Certainly additional funding sources are
11 always helpful in completing a program, yes.
12 Q. And they would supplement the available
13 resources for the district to complete these projects,
14 would they not?
15 A. That is true, it would.
16 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have nc
17 further questions.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans,
19 Anyone else have -- yes, Mr. Mahfood.
20 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD:
21 Q. I've got a question. If I can ask you, Pam,
22 to kind of summarize your view of -- your responses were
23 -- take a step back. Your responses were very clear
24 regarding the district's incentive proposal, and in
25 Questions 22 to 26, and depending on which copy you have
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1 here, I have Page 9, starting Question 22, you pretty
2 clearly outline your view of the incentives and
3 effectiveness. Could you summarize what your thoughts are
4 about the incentives as they've been proposed?
A. Sure. I think, as a general rule, the level
6 of incentive that's going to be provided by the credit
7 programs is going to be limited just due to the nature of
8 the low fee in the first place. Even with 100 percent
9 credit, because the fee is so low, the utility is going to
10 be limited in incentivizing folks to do things.
11 However, it does still provide -- the credit
12 program, any credit program is still really important from
13 the perspective of providing equity and fairness for
14 customers that do participate in those programs that have
15 that cost reduction due to that effort.
16 Q. Can you maybe expand a little bit on what your
17 answer to Question 25 -- I know there are other options
18 out there. I'm sure you're probably -- have been familiar
19 in your work with other ways of Possibly approaching this
20 incentive side. Could you maybe amplify on that a little
21 bit, how you could see it it could be or how we could
22 add to this?
23 A. Sure. So in light of the fact that the fee
24 itself is low and the credit to be provided won't really
25 incentivize folks to do things, another option would be to
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1 provide some type of grant program so if the uti-"2ty's
2 policy and desire is to really incentivize the reduction
3 of effective either impervious area or effective
4 impervious area by managing stormwater on site, grant
5 programs similar to that which they have in place for in
6 Project Clear would be to provide grant funding for
7 eligible types of projects, and 2 think in some of the
8 exhibits there are some other examples of utilities that
9 do that,
13 What that is is you're decoupling that from a
11 credit program and providing it on a grant basis, so that
12 does have impact then on monies available for capital
13 programs from that same revenue source.
14 Q. Would you think, though, by doing that more in
15 a front-end loaded manner, could potentially reduce what
16 might be highly inflated costs 10 years, 20 years from
17 now, we possibly mitigate, by spending the money up front
18 on the prevention?
19 A. s think it depends on where the -- where those
20 facilities are implemented and where the problems reside.
21 So certainly if there were things that could be done in
22 that that would be eligible for that type of a grant in
23 the same area where a problem exists, then that could be
24 helpful, but if it's in other parts of the system where
25 the prioritized projects don't line up, stormwater is
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1 local and watershed based and MSD services a number of
2 different watersheds, so it would depend on the location.
3
Q.
So there could be a link between what we're
4 talking about here and the process of establishing
5 priorities or what projects are done at what -- in what
6 timeline?
7 A. There could be, and for, you know, more detail
8 from the engineering perspective, I would refer to Nicole
9 Young to elaborate on that further, the details.
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. I'm more on the financial side.
12 MR. MAHFOOD: Sure. Thank you very much.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Mr. Goss.
14 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
15 Q. So did I understand your testimony to be that
16 you don't believe this credit program is going to
17 incentivize any behavior?
18 A. I wouldn't say that it will not. I think it
19 will have more limited incentive just based on the low
20 value. So if someone is really incentivized to reduce
21 their fee to pay for the asset that they would be putting
22 in place, the payback period for that is long enough that
23 it probably isn't going to incentivize greatly.
24 However, I do believe that a credit program is
25 an important component of all stormwater user fee
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1 programs-
2 Q. I'm not quite sure why you hold that belief if
3 you don't believe people are really going to be
4 incentivized by it. I get the idea in the abstract that
5 credit programs are good things, but credit programs don't
6 actually motivate people to do something, seems to me
7 that's somewhat cynical, but let me ask you this. The
8 credit, if I understand it right, is $135 maximum; is that
9 right?
10 A. The residential incentive program, yes.
11 Q. Do you have any sense or estimate of how much
12 the costs of a typical residential stormwater improvement
13 might be?
14 A. That is not in my area of expertise. I think
15 there has been some testimony prior that gave some ranges.
16 It would depend on what the BMP or best management
17 practice is, if it's a rain garden or cistern, what it is
18 and what the size of it is.
19 Q. If I understand it correctly, the $135 would
20 be paid over 10 years; is that right?
21 A. For the residential program, my understanding
22 is that it's -- it's calculated based on a 50 percent
23 credit over 10 years, but it's an up -front payment.
24 Q. How would you change the credit program so
25 that it mould, if you have an opinion about how to change
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1 the credit program so that it would be more effective in
2 incentivizing behavior?
3 A. Again, based on the level of the funding, the
4 level of the stormwater rate, I don't know that there is a
5 lot more that can be done to incentivize. In my testimony
6 I stated that the district might consider having that as
7 an ongoing credit for the residential customers to help
8 encourage ongoing maintenance, because then it could be
9 removed over time as -- as that matter, but again, I don'
10 believe that it's going to be possible to really just --
11 for that reason only, for that fee only, to greatly
12 incentivize.
13
Q.
Is that because there's simply not enough
14 money available to make that an effective credit?
15 A. Correct. Because the fee is $2.25 for one
16 ERU, there just really isn't a lot of money there. Other
17 utilities that have -- such as, say, Portland, Oregon who
18 have really robust stormwater programs, their fees are up
19 in the $35 or so for whatever that value is at this point
20 in time for residential customers, then a credit starts to
21 become more meaningful.
22 Q. So do you have any opinion on whether MSD
23 should be seeking a higher amount of -- higher rate?
24 A. Well, the district is funding their stormwater
25 program from multiple funding sources, so I wouldn't
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} recommend that the rate be higher just to provide the
2 incentive. It would be -- that would generate, you know,
3 additional funds for more capital projects, they could do
4 this program more quickly, but there's a balancing act
5 between what the customer affordability is, what the needs
6 are within the CIRP, how quickly that program should be
7 done and the consideration of Providing incentive to
8 customers.
9 Q. In this program, at best, in its best day,
10 it's a 30-year program to -- what we've been told.
11 A. That's my understanding.
12 Q. And that's on its best day. And that's
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
assuming that we got it all right and got these cost
estimates right that we haven't spent much time developing
and everything else works out the way we -- I guess the
model says it will work; isn't that true?
A. That's my understanding, yes.
Q. In 30-years time, the vast majority of us will
not be here to see the results of that program, which is
somewhat dismaying in terms of this being an effective
21 program. Do you have any opinion about that? Is this
22 typical that these programs should take that long?
23 A. Well, the district is one of the largest
24 stcrmwater service areas in the country, and so the
25 magnitude of the issues that it's going to have to address
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1 is large. Certainly if the fee were higher and they could
2 fund more projects sooner, the program could be addressed
3 more quickly. You know, I think it's definitely a step in
4 the right direction to be able to start to address these
issues that haven't been able -- that haven't been funded
6 in the past. And again, it becomes a balancing act of
customer affordability and the need to address the issues,
8 Q. And am I right that the cost to the customers
9 is going to be about $2.25 a year or a month or
10 A. It's $2.25 per month for the average
11 residential customer. The residential fee is a
12 four -tiered structure, so some residential customers will
13 pay a little less, some a little more, and then
14 non-residential would be based on their actual impervious
15 areas, so the non-residential rates in most cases would be
16 higher than $2.25 per month.
17 Q. And I'm very sympathetic with the idea of not
18 increasing costs to people. We all have costs we have to
19 pay for our basic needs, et cetera, but $2.25, you can buy
20 a hamburger at McDonald's for that much money. I mean it
21 just pales in terms of need for the amount of money. I
22 don't -- is this typical of what you mould see in other
23 areas of the country in terms of what they would charge
24 residential customers for this type of program?
25 A. So most stormwater utilities have a single
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funding -- most often will have a single funding source.
2 Some have a couple of different funding sources, but for
3 stormwater utilities that have a user fee, usually that's
4 the primary source of revenue, so it's that fee, for those
5 stormwater utilities, is recovery, not just capital
6 projects, but also operation and maintenance costs as well
7 and regulatory costs. MSD has different funding sources
8 for that that customers are paying through the property
9 tax assessment and two cent tax and 10 cent tax.
10 Q. All right. And so would it be your
11 recommendation those should be -- MSD would benefit from
12 combining all of those in a single rate? Do you have an
13 opinion about that?
14 A. You know, the last -- with the last rate
15 proposal in my testimony I had recommended that impervious
16 area based fee is the most equitable way to recover
17 stormwater utility costs. I didn't, you know, opine --
18 now that the property taxes are in place and this rate
19 Proposal was ;ust limited to the capital rate Proposal, I
20 didn't go back and evaluate that bigger picture.
21 Q. Now, if this program is supposed to fund
22 capital costs, would MSD be permitted to give a credit
23 under this program to residents for maintenance, costs
24 associated with that, would that be allowed?
25 A. 1 wouldn't recommend that, no, because that's
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1 fee funded from a different source. Similarly, some
2 utilities will have credit programs for educational
3 institutions for providing classes and public outreach and
4
that sort of thing within the educational institution.
But again, T wouldn't recommend that for this fee, because
6 those are costs that the utility is incurring, it's funded
from a different source.
o Q. Right. And what I thought I heard you testify
9 a little bit earlier was giving customers a credit for
10 maintenance BNPs. Did I mishear that?
11 A. Correct. Correct. I don't believe I said
that. If I did, I misspoke. The credit would be for
13 inputting -- for installing rain gardens and that SOIL of
14 thing.
15 Q. No, I understood that, bti.. rnougnti you se..
16 at one point, kind of in passing, that it would be -- if
17 you wanted to -- since you made a comment about whether
18 this was an effective incentive or not, but it might be a
19 more effective incentive to focus on giving credits for
20 maintenance sorts of things.
21 A. No. So my comment in that regard was that in
22 providing a credit on an ongoing basis for the residential
23 incentive versus an up -front incentive, it would encourage
24 the customers to continue to maintain those in an adequate
25 manner. These BMPs, like rain gardens, are only effective
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1 if they're properly maintained. If you give an incentive
2 up front with no obligation to continue to operate or
3 maintain it, then it's not providing the value that MSS is
4 expecting, so you're not giving a credit for the
5 maintenance, you're expecting the maintenance in order to
6 aet the credit.
7 Q. Do you think that the -- do you have an
8 opinion as to whether a grant program would be more
9 effective in terms of addressing residential stormwater
IC remediation as opposed to the credit program that's being
1 proposed?
12 A. In the sense that a Grant program could be
13 established that would provide more funding to incentivize
14 a property owner to implement the asset, yes. Certainly
15 as far as the details, what that should be, that's all the
16 detail that would have to be looked at in developing a
17 grant program as far as what the requirements would be,
18 what kind of grant you would provide, how you would go
19 about doing -that, what the overall budget for a grant
2C program would be and the impact on the capital program
21 that would result by taking those funds out of the capital
22 program.
23 Q. But that's something that could be funded out
24 of this rate, a grant program?
25 A. It is something that the district could
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1 consider to provide further incentive, yes.
2 Q. Now, what would be -- what analysis -- how
3 difficult would it be to come up with the kind of analysis
4 you described of evaluating how much the grant should be
5 and how much demand there would be for the grants and what
6 kind of impact that would have on the capital program?
7 A. I would probably direct that question to the
8 district with regard to how they developed their Project
9 Clear grant program, because they do have experience with
10 having developed that specifically for this service area.
11 Q. How do other districts do that kind of
12 analysis?
13 A. I haven't been involved in the development of
14 a grant program, per se, but in the development of credit
15 programs we work with the utilities and the utility's
16 engineers to evaluate what the costs are of the program,
17 what the -- it's both a policy and technical consideration
18 as far as what the needs are, what the value is to the
19 utility.
20 Q. Do you recall from MSD's prior testimony as to
21 how much demand there has been for grants under Project
22 Clear by residential customers?
23 A. I do recall reading that I don't recall the
24 specifics to quote a figure, but it wasn't -- it wasn't a
25 large number.
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Q. Right. That was my recollection, too, it
2 wasn't a very large number. So how would -- I think I had
3 asked the director did he have any ideas of how to make
4 that a more effective grant program, and that discussion
5 didn't go very far Do you have any opinion -- so which
6 is why I'm kind of pursuing this grant program idea with
7 you, because if we model it on what Operation Clear has
8 done, which doesn't seem to have been an effective grant
9 program, it doesn't seem to be a recipe for success.
10 A. It depends. You know, I haven't been involved
11 with that and I don't know if there has been any outreach
12 to see, you know, kind of why the participation has been
13 low. It varies across the country as far as interest in
14 those kinds of projects that would be eligible for a
15 grant.
16 Different parts of the country are, you know,
17 really aware and really, you know, into green roofs, you
18 know, rain gardens, that sort of thing. Other parts of
19 the country may be -- you know, the awareness hasn't got
20 to that point. So I think that public awareness and
21 interest is an. important Piece of that. I don't know --
22 haven' reviewed the grant program that they have in place
23 now in detail to know if there are any other reasons why
24 it hasn't been pursued any more than it has.
25 Q. Do you know if this rate proposal has a
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24 Lemoine.
Page 59
1 component in it for paying for public awareness, assuming
2 this rate is adopted, and to raise consciousness with
3 respect to stormwater and stormwater remediation and
4 options that would be available? Do you know if the rate
5 includes those kinds of things?
6
A. I don't believe the stormwater rate does
7 because it's a capital rate, a capital program. My
8 understanding is that through the district's permit and
9 their requirements with the regulatory requirements, that
10 they have public outreach programs that addresses those
11 kinds of things.
12 Q. That was my understanding as well. Do you
13 know if that regulatory program is -- if there's any
14 proposed budget that's been set aside to focus on raising
15 consciousness with respect to this rate and what would be
16 available for consumers?
17 A. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the
18 budget, how they've allocated time and what their specific
19 project outreach protocols are.
20 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Goss. Any
22 questions from any of the other Rate Commissioners or --
COMMISSIONER RATZKI: I have one for Ms.
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes.
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1 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER RA^_ZK-:
2 Q. I just want to make sure that --- on the record
3 that we understand the capital program. We've gone to
4 great lengths today to talk about it's very preliminary,
3 $30 million may or may not be enough money, it could be,
6 but also the revenue is not static depending on how much
7 we involve the credit program, incentive program, and also
8 any changes in pervious area over time. Would you agree
with that, that the revenues may not be static also?
10 A. Yeah, that's -- yes, that's correct. In my
11 testimony I noted those -- the assumptions that are used
12 in the rate model that provides the revenues for the
13 estimated $30 million per year and changes to the
14 impervious area -- the billable units, the impervious
15 area, whether it be from reduction of impervious area due
16 to the credit program, changes once the fee goes into
17 place based on appeals that you can always expect when a
18 utility starts, and then just general changes in the
19 service area as a whole. All cf those things can either
20 increase or decrease the level of revenue that will be
21 seen through this $2.25 over time.
22 Q. So there could be added projects to the
23 capital program, decreased projects to the capital
24 program, increase in cost, decrease in cost, plus the
2� revenues could go up or down?
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1
2
3
rage Cr
A. That's correct.
Q. I wanted to make sure that's clear.
A. Yeah. And so that's -- you know, it will be
4 important obviously for the utility to continue to monitor
5 that on an annual basis in order to determine what
6 projects move forward over time based on available
7 funding.
8 COMMISSIONER RATZKI: Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Any other Rate
10 Commissioners have any questions? Hearing none, I'm going
11 to suggest that we break until 10:45, and at that point we
12 will resume with questions for Ms. Lemoine.
13 (Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10:30 to
14 10:45 A.M.)
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Lemoine,
16 we're back in session. Ms. Myers, do you have questions
17 for Ms. Lemoine?
18 MS. MYERS: I do have a few.
19 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Please come forward.
20 QUESTIONS BY MS. MYERS:
21
Q.
I have a few questions about your testimony.
22 Do you have a copy of your testimony in front of you?
23
24
A. Yes.
Q.
25 on Page 4_
Okay. On Question 9, Paragraph A-1, I have it
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A. Okay.
2 Q. You conclude the proposed stormwater capital
3 rate will enhance the district's ability to fund sewer and
4 drainage infrastructure projects and/or related capital
•
program services. How did you reach that conclusion?
6 A. By having a funding source in order tc address
7 the flooding and erosion problems throughout the district,
8 that would enhance your ability to provide the service of
9 managing those issues.
10 Q. And the district currently does not have such
11 a funding source for flooding and erosion?
12 A. Correct, correct. The capital funding at this
13 point in time is directed for other types of projects.
14 Q. Okay. Question 9, Paragraph A-2, one
1� paragraph down, you concur with the district's position
16 that providing solutions to stormwater runoff issues will
17 benefit the service area as a whole. Can you elaborate on
18 that conclusion?
19 A. Certainly. If the capital program is
2C addressing erosion and flooding issues that are, you know,
21 even where they're on a private property, for instance in
22 the example cf a stream erosion, that runoff is occurring
23 and that erosion is occurring due to runoff throughout
24 that watershed, and so in that regard that's benefitting
25 the entire watershed area and the service area.
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1 It also, by addressing a lot of these
2 problems, will help with water quality type aspects that
3 are required to be managed throughout the service area.
4 Q. Thank you. Question 9, Paragraph A-3, you
state the proposed stormwater rate structure imposes a
6 fair and reasonable burden on ratepayers and provides for
equitable recovery of capital costs. How did you come to
8 that conclusion?
A. Using an impervious area based approach for
10 assessing charges to property owners is an industry
11 accepted methodology. It reflects the runoff that
12 properties impose on the system.
13 Q. Is the tiered residential rate, is that also a
14 fair and reasonable way to assess the rates?
15
16 residential rate, and depending on the types of residents
17 for the service area, that might be appropriate. With a
18 large service area such as MSD's where you have a large
19 diversity of residential properties, a tiered rate
20 structure more fairly imposes that fee on the various
21 types of residential properties.
22 Q. And now I'm going to skip down to Number 7, so
23 It's Question 9, Paragraph A, Number 7. You testified
24 that the proposed stormwater rate will not impact the
25 current bond covenants. How did you reach that
A.
Yes.
Some utilities have just a
single
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1 conclusion?
2 A. Because the district's proposal is to cash
3 finance the entire capital program and not be issuing
4 debt, it would not have an impact on your bond covenants.
5 Q. Okay. Question 20, I have Page 10, and this
6 question has to do with the second paragraph of Question
7 20. Are you aware of any stormwater utilities that
8 differentiate the level of imperviousness of compacted
g dirt as a part of an impervious area based rate structure?
1C A. Yes. There are utilities who assess an
11 effective impervious area based on a runoff factor for
12 properties such as vacant properties that have compacted
i3 soil and things, so even if they don't have impervious
14 area, if the soil is compacted from previous development
15 where it, in effect, is not pervious area as would be
"6 defined from the -- compared to, say, a natural state,
17 that utilities do indeed implement that.
18 Q. And do you know how they determine those
19 characteristics?
20 A. Yes. The information would be based on
21 normally property tax records that indicate the vacant
22 property and then a runoff coefficient based on parcel
23 size would be assessed. So it's, you know, normally a low
24 type of runoff coefficient, but recognition that there is
25 increased runoff from that type of a property as opposed
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1 to truly pervious property or pervious square footage.
2 Q. Okay. And can you identify some of the
3 municipalities or cities that do that?
4
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A. Yeah, I can provide a more detailed list out
5 of our rate survey that I wouldn't have off the top of my
6 head that, for instance, Wilmington, Delaware is a utility
7 that just went into effect here this year and that's one
8 example that has one. Springfield, Ohio has one as well.
9 There are a number that do take that approach.
10 Q. Okay. Question 25, there's been a lot of --
11 you've already provided a lot of testimony around Question
12 25, but I just want to ask you, is it your testimony that
13 the effectiveness of a grant or credit -type program
14 depends on the value of that grant or credit compared to
15 the costs associated with the BMP?
16 A. I think that's a significant factor in
17 providing that incentive for most -- for a lot of
18 customers. There are customers who would have
19 altruistic -type reasons that would be incentivized by
20 things, but for, you know, the dollar value is important
21 for a lot of customers who might not otherwise, frankly,
even be able to afford to even if they want to.
MS. MYERS: Thank you. I have no further
24 questions.
25 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Myers.
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1 MS. MYERS: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENIES: Mr. Neuschafer, do you have
3 questions for Ms. Lemoine?
4 MR. NEUSCHAFER: I do.
5 CHAIRMAN TCFN ES: Please come up.
6 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
7 Q. Good morning.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I would like to turn to Page 4 of your
10 testimony, Question 9, A--2 is what I'm looking at. There
11 you state that the district has stated that the projects
12 are expected to be primarily located on private property.
13 Have you seen any analysis prepared by the district or
-4 otherwise of projects that will be on private property,
15 but will have impacts beyond that private parcel of
16 property?
17 A. Well, as I mentioned before, for instance,
18 with the example of a stream restoration, that those types
19 of projects not only would provide benefit to that --
20 obviously that -- where that property is located, but also
21 within the recion as a whole in order to manage that
22 runoff and as well as the quality -related issues, so the
23 quality of that runoff as it enters other receiving
24 streams.
25 Q. So that's an -- is this example of stream
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1 restorations, is this your example or is this a specific
2 project that you're referring to?
3 A. It's just a general example.
4
Q.
Do you know, of the approximately 500 projects
that MSD has identified, do you know how many of those
6 might be of a stream restoration -type project?
7 A. I do not. You might ask that question of
8 Nicole Young, who really delved deeper into the capital
9 program.
10 Q. Okay. So even if there are projects on
private property that might have some impact on areas
outside the private property, is it also fair to state
that some of the projects on private property might only
have an impact on that particular piece of property?
A. Yeah. I couldn't state that, but I think
there's two aspects to stormwater projects to look at is,
one, you know, what -- who is benefitted by the project,
but also how is the need for that project being incurred.
So in other words, if something is happening to a
property, but it's due to flow from -- you know,
runoff
from other properties or within the watershed as a whole,
then there's an important aspect to that as well, that
funding that solution from stormwater fee is appropriate.
Q.
I would like to move on. You indicated, as
Ms. Myers asked, on Page 5 there is no impact on
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wastewater bond covenants. I understand those because
2 there's been no proposal to fund any of this program
3 through bonds. Have you developed any opinion as to
4 whether you think bond funding might be appropriate for
5 this type of capital program?
6 A. There could be certain projects that are
7 regional in nature, have a long life that the utility
8 could evaluate bond financing. I think that you have to
9 look at the nature of the projects, will the utility have
10 an asset on their books as a result of that Project, as
11 well as the program. as a whole, when you're investing a
12 lot of money on a year-to-year basis, you've bond financed
13 a significant portion of it in the near term, it would
14 provide either the ability to fund more projects earlier
1� or have a lower rate, but down the line as that debt
16 compiles, you would have a larger revenue requirement down
17 the road due to the interest costs as well as just the
18 compiling and basically deferring cf paying for those
19 projects.
20 So on ongoing programs such as this, and even
21 though it's been defined as having a 30-year time period
22 as been testified, you know, we don't really know when or
23 if the program would end, you want to be able to manage
24 and not overly issue debt for those kind of programs. Sc
25 it's similar to a wastewater site, renewal/replacement of
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1 the collection system. In that program year over year in
2 perpetuity you don't want to debt finance that kind of
3 program because you just increase costs down the road.
4 Q. You identified that there is a reasonable
5 nexus between the projected costs and the amount of
6 revenues that are being requested by MSD. What's your
7 understanding of how the $2.25 rate per ERU was set?
8 A. Well, as I stated in my testimony, my
9 understanding is that the $2.25 was determined based on
10 the district's review of the program needs and different
11 time horizons for addressing that on a current value basis
12 as well as public input and input from the public with
13 regard to how much they would be willing to pay to have
14 the program completed.
15 Q. So is it your testimony that there is a
16 reasonable nexus between the $2.25 charge per ERU and the
17 actual I guess impact associated with stormwater runoff
18 from that ERU?
19 A. So the $2.25 would provide the funding to
20 the level of revenue needed to fund the capital program as
21 has been projected. As I previously testified, there are
22 uncertainties in that, both in the cost of the program and
23 also in the revenue side as far as what the ultimate
24 billing -- the billable units will be as far as that, but
25 basing that fee based on impervious area, because runoff
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and flooding issues are greatly determined by the amount
2 of impervious area, is a reasonable nexus and that's an
3 industry -accepted approach for establishing equitable user
4 fees.
5 Q. I'm trying not to ask questions that have
6 already been asked, so just bear with me for just a
7 minute.
8 A. That's fine.
9 Q. On Page 7, Question 18, you opine that the
burden imposed on ratepayers is fair and reasonable. Was
11 there a specific definition of fair and reasonable that
12 you're using or is this -- how did you determine what you
13 believe to be fair and reasonable?
14 A. Well, when I evaluate this, I lock at it from
15 the standpoint of the rate structure, how it has been
1c' developed and the impact on the customers for providing
17 the necessary services, and fee based on impervious area
18 is a fair and reasonable way to recover the costs of this
19 type of capital program.
20 Q. Do you think it's fair and reasonable with
21 respect to nonreasonable -- or I'm sorry -- non-commercial
22 properties where some sort of storinwater mitigation
23 measures have already been implemented? Do you think it's
24 still fair and reasonable to impose rates on those
25 properties that aren't contributing or contributing only
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1 minimally to stormwater runoff?
2 A. Well, I believe that the district's credit
3 program would provide for the requirements for those
4 non-residential customers to pursue credits for eligible
5 types of programs.
6 Q. Based on your understanding, what are those
7 what kind of eligible types of programs?
8 A. I'm not -- the rate proposal outlined, in
9 general, the types of facilities. My understanding is
10 that a detailed credit program manual has not been
developed yet. That's common. That normally is
12 implemented during the implementation phase of the
13 stormwater fee, but the general types of requirements are
14 outlined in the proposal.
15 Q. On Page 10, Question 20 you identified the
16 district has not included parcels that don't have
17 structures, but may have surfaces including compacted dirt
18 that restrict infiltration and still contribute to
19 stormwater runoff. Do you have any estimate as to how
20 much property this is?
21 A. I don't, off the top of my head. I believe in
22 one of the discovery requests there was an answer at least
23 somewhat related to this. I don't recall if it was
24 specifically talking about just these types of properties
25 or if it was all undeveloped properties.
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Q. Would it be typical for other stormwater
2 systems who assess fees on an impervious area basis to
3 include these types of properties in their fees?
4 A. Not all utilities dc, but many do and it is,
in my opinion, it is a reasonable requirement for these
6 type of properties.
7 Q. Are they assessed -- let's talk about a
8 property that just has compacted dirt.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Is that assessed at the same rate, for
Ii instance here $2.25 per ERU, or are they typically
12 assessed at some different rate?
13 A. it would be assessed at the same ERU rate, but
14 the number of ERUs that it's charged would be based on a
13 parcel area and a nominal runoff coefficient to calculate
to effective impervious area.
17 Q. So ultimately the payer would pay a percentage
18 -- for the same amount of compacted dirt area, they would
19 just be paying some smaller percentage than if that were--
20 A. Concrete.
21 Q. -- concrete or asphalt?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Given your experience with other stormwater
24 utilities, how does the level of cost estimation and
23 engineering analysis completed by MSD here compare to the
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1 amount of cost estimation and engineering analysis
2 performed by other utilities when seeking their rates?
3 A. When you're looking at a 30-year program,
4 normally I don't see detailed cost estimates for all
5 projects. Conceptual type cost estimates to get a handle
6 on the magnitude of the problem, in my opinion, is the
7 norm. I'll defer to Nicole Young for her expertise in
8 working with capital program development day -in and
9 day -out for that more specifically.
10 Q. If we were talking about bonds here, issuing
11 bonds, would this level of engineering, planning and cost
12 estimation be sufficient to issue bonds?
13 A. No, but you wouldn't be issuing the bonds on a
14 30-year program. You would be issuing bonds based on the
15 work that would be completed in the next, you know, one,
16 two or three fiscal years, and the utility at that point
17 in time would have a higher level of cost estimation done.
18 It normally, even at that point, wouldn't necessarily be
19 final cost estimates, but would be a higher lever of cost
20 estimation than the conceptual level, so that would occur
21 at that appropriate point in time.
22 Q. So a bond program would only be looking at a
23 limited number of projects over a limited number of years?
24 A. That's required. Utilities are required to
25 expend bond funds within a specified period of time.
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Q. And would that be fair and reasonable to give
2 ratepayers those same sorts of protections as far as the
3 duration of the program, the amounts of analysis and
4 estimation being performed? Why should bondholders have
more protection than ratepayers?
6 A. I guess I don't understand the notion of
7 protection, per se. ratepayers are paying for the
3 program as the program proceeds. If at some point in time
9 the program is discontinued, the rate would be
10 discontinued in this -- under the district's current
._ process of cash financing the program. Certainly if they
financerojects then even if the program
12 were to bond p � ,
13 were to stop, the rate would have to continue in order to
14 pay that outstanding debt.
15 Q. You participated in the wastewater hearings in
16 2015, correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And you're aware that there is -- MSD has
19 indicated that there's another upcoming proposal in 2019
2C for wastewater?
21 A. That is correct-
22 Q. Have you performed any analysis on the
23 cumulative impact of this rate with the 2015 wastewater
24 rate increases and potentially also including the 2019
25 proposal, although I understand we don't know what's in
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1 that proposal?
2 A. Correct. No, I haven't, and we • you know,
3 we don't know what the wastewater rate proposal will be.
4 Certainly customer affordability, as they are developing
5 that wastewater proposal, is something that they will need
6 to look at and something that the Rate Commission will
7 have to evaluate as well.
8 MR. NEUSCHAFER: That's all I've got. Thank
9 you.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer.
11 Appreciate that. Ms. Stump, do you have any further
12 questions for Ms. Lemoine?
13 MS. STUMP: I do not have any questions.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Brockmann.
15 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN:
16 Q. Do you have any experience with similar
17 service providers specifically on erosion stormwater
18 control rates?
19 A. No. My experience has been with stormwater
20 utilities that are funded, as I had mentioned before,
21 impervious area based charge for funding all aspects of
22 the program. There are utilities that will have perhaps a
23 sales tax or some sort of funding
for part of the program,
24 but I haven't been involved in developing one specifically
25 just for capital.
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1 Q. So are you aware of examples of districts with
2 similar services provided specifically for erosion and
3 stormwater control?
4 A. The programs that I've seen, it's normally
5 just all capital, so it would be erosion and stormwater
6 control as well as any other capital requirements.
7 Q. But not as a separate itemization. MSD is
8 proposing that they provide the maintenance, but they
9 don't have the money or the funds to address the
IC improvements or reduce the problems.
ll A. A lot of utilities don't have funding in place
72 to adequately be investing in their system and providing
13 adequate capital programs, but this -- the way MSD is
14 funding their program is different than those that I have
75 worked with.
16 Q. The programs that you have worked with, so,
17 for example, the municipalities or the district, whoever
18 it might be, they have a property that gets flooded
19 continuously, they buy it out, do you have any experience
20 or knowledge of how those properties are handled? Do they
2 retain ownership of those properties or what transpires
22 after they've mitigated the damages simply by buying out
23 the property?
24 A. Initially then the utility does own the
25 property, or if it's a city utility, the city might own
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1 the property, often times go into a land bank and then
2 down the line if there are ways to sell that property for
3 an approved use that wouldn't again create problems down
4 the road, then they would do that.
5 Q. So are you implying that there's some
6 oversight with future use of that property by someone as
7 to whether it's suitable to be redeveloped and not
8 contribute or be a continued program in, say, a floodplain
9 where it's continually flooding?
10 A. I believe so, yes. You wouldn't want that
property being redeveloped. If a homeowner were bought
12 out, you wouldn't want that property, you know, to be sold
13 and a house put on it, for instance.
14 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Schoedel.
16 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL:
17 Q. There's been several discussions about the
18 level of engineering review estimates. You had referred
19 back to Nicole for several of these. Can she address
20 those as far as does she feel that these have been
21 adequately reviewed enough?
22 MS. STUMP: She's the next witness.
23 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: We'll look at that when she
24 comes forward.
25 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN TCENJES: Any further questions for
2 Ms. Lemcine by any of the Rate Commissioners? I have a
3 question.
4 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
5 Q. We've talked about the percentage of these
6 this work that's on private property. What percentage of
7 the overall scope in terms of dollars, do you have that
8 percentage breakdown?
9 A. L don't. You know, there was testimony that
1: said a lot of the projects would be on private property.
11 I believe in MIEC's first discovery request the district
12 stated that 75 percent would be public, so I'm not.
13 certain.
Q. 75 percent are public property?
15 A. I don't want to the misstate, so
16 Q. That's fine.
17 A. So it may not be public orooerty. It was 75
18 percent of caoital improvements will be assets owned by
13 MSD, so I conflated two different things there.
20 MS. STUMP: Can you stare where you're reading
21 that?
22 A. Yes. That's first discovery request, Exhibit
23 MSD-41, A, Question 1, Response A.
24 Q. So of the remaining 25 percent that is not on
25 MSD property, what percent of that would be on public
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1 property versus private property?
2 A. Right. So I --
3 Q. Or I'm sorry, what percent would be capital
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 A. That's correct. Right, you would --
11 Q. So I'm thinking it would be important to
12 understand what those percentages may be.
13 A. Right. And in this -- in the district's
14 response here they had indicated that 75 percent of the
15 capital improvements will be assets owned by MSD. They go
16 on to say that most will be in permanent easements
17 constructed on private property. So I conflated two
18 different things, the asset owners versus where the
19 property is located, but --
20 Q. I would think that would have a pretty
21 impactful outcome depending on if bond funding is used,
22 what the potential might be.
23 A. Right. You would have to identify projects
24 where bond funding would be appropriate and only issue
25 bonds for those kind of projects.
improvements that would be owned by the district versus
work that would be done on private property? And I'm
asking these questions because obviously if you're talking
about bonding, you're not going to bond improvements. I'm
assuming you're not going to use bonding money for
improvements that are done on private property-
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CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Any further
2 questions for Ms. Lemoine? Thank you. Ms. Stump, do you
3 have an additional witness?
4 MS. STUMP: I do. Ms. Nicole Young.
CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Nicole, is the testimony
you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and
1 ri t-hin.j ID,_,'_ the truth?
8 MS. YOUNG: It is.
9 CHAIRMAN ICENJES: Thank you. Mr. Schoedel,
10 would you like to ask your question of Ms Young at this
11 point?
12 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL:
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's been a lot
14 of discussion about the credibility of the list of
15 projects and the amount of estimating and engineering
that's been done. Do you think that level is very typical
17 to what you've seen in other rate cases like this?
18 A. : do. And not provided in the exhibit that
19 you all have- received, but MSD has referenced the 53
20 binders plus three additional general binders that they
21 have available for review, and I did come to the district
22 or. May 1st to review those documents.
23 They have laid them out on the conference room
24 upstairs, which is a table that seats about 18 people, and
2� it filled that table. So there's four -inch binders, three
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1 to four -inch binders for each watershed and it goes
2 through in detail the engineering that has been done, the
3 planning that has been done, the cost estimates that have
4 been done for that. So yes, this is very typical of this
5 phase of a project.
6 Q. In that process were you able to see their
7 risk prioritization method that they used for each one of
8 those projects?
9 A. I was, yes.
10 Q. So the ones that are established, prioritized,
11 those, in your opinion, if they were not addressed now,
12 would the potential cost to ratepayers increase if they're
13 not addressed soon?
14 A. The costs will increase over time because the
15 cost of money, yes.
16 Q. So the project or the problem with that --
17 related to those could get worse and impact ratepayers
18 more if it's not addressed now?
19 A. That's true.
20 COMMISSIONER SCHOEDEL: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Other Rate Commissioners,
22 questions for Ms. Young at this point?
23 QUESTIONS BY MR. MAHFOOD:
24 Q. Nicole, in your testimony -- bear with me here
25 for a second, we may have different -- it's Question 11.
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In there could you explain to me, just to start off with
2 here, what solution points, what exactly does that mean?
3 It's at the last sentence as you're talking about
4 additional revisions to the prioritization process.
5 A. And r do lust want to open their actual
6 prioritization schedule we're talking about. So in their
7 crioritization system they have the problem/solve category
8 which includes flooding, erosion and then it goes down to
9 talk about risk mitigation and then they have a solution
13 benefit category. Included in that are regional points,
11 environmental water quality points and some miscellaneous
12 points that co co easement and public education.
13 Q. Okay. Is it conceivable that those points
'4 could be -- in the priority -establishing process, that
15 those points could be added to or skewed towards this
16 concept of reducing impervious surface in the future or
17 reducing the risk of more impervious surface being built
18 by getting to the project list? Is that possible or is
:.9 that kind of pie in -- too much pie in the sky?
23 A. My belief, Commissioner, is that that's a
21 separate issue.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I know the district does have regulations when
24 it comes to increase impervious area, that's on the
25 regulatory side, and they try very hard to work with
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1 developers and residents to balance the impervious area
2 and the BMPs that are provided on new construction, and I
3 believe that is separate to the issues we're dealing with
4 today.
5 Q. Thank you. Further down in the answer in
6 Question 12, I really am taking to heart what you said
7 there about -- and I know we've talked about it in other
8 ways -- that increasing the incentives or credits for BMPs
9 feels good and I think is the correct thing to do to
10 change people's attitudes, but it may not have the impact
11 on impervious surface in the future, and just as we're
12 talking about this today, I'm beginning to see that
13 potential if you're going to use that as kind of a
14 foundational approach, that grants and education are two
15 key components for the future.
16 And, you know, I'm just trying to, as I ferret
17 this out and look, as Pam has talked about on the
18 financial side, Nicole, you kind of the engineering side
19 of this, seems like the picture is becoming clearer for me
20 that the additions that I think may be necessary will be
21 something that approaches grants issue and education,
22 because that's really what we're trying do. BMPs are not
23 that effective in solving the problem, then we have to do
24 something to get people to move in the right direction.
25 A. If I may.
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i Q. Please, yes-
2 A. I would say it is very difficult to line up
3 green infrastructure improvements with the hardscaping
4 that's required to solve the engineering problems we're
5 facing today. I will say that MSD has done an incredibly
6 good job of reaching out to the public through Project
7 Clear and talking about the grants that are available for
8 rain gardens and rain barrels and a number of other
9 methods that could be done.
10 We have an abundance of water in St. Louis,
11 and I'm sure the folks at the call center here can attest
12 that most days they do not receive calls about these
13 issues, but when it does rain, it becomes a problem, and
14 so those are the issues that we're really focused on. And
_5 : think earlier there was some question about the number
16 of projects.
17 _ did do lust a guick analysis of the first
18 100 projects on the list, not a total look at the 500,
19 because the Excel spreadsheet you guys were provided was
20 password protected, but 92 of those are what I would
21 consider hardscape construction programs, three of them
22 are buyouts, and five of them are stabilization projects,
23 so we really are talking overwhelmingly about a problem
24 that is engineering solution based with hardscaoe
25 solution.
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1 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Mr. Palans.
3 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER PALANS:
4 Q. Thank you. Ms. Young, as I understand it, you
5 described your role in this proceeding as advising the
6 Commission on two things, the capital projects and the
7 prioritization system. Is that a fair characterization of
8 how you envision your role here?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. And with regard to your role in the
11 prioritization system, as I understand it, what the
12 district does is it looks at the problem and looks at the
13 benefit of the solution from that problem and then divides
14 that by the overall cost. And I'm stating it very simply,
15 but it's basically -- I would call it a cost -benefit
16 analysis, correct?
17 A. I think that's a fair characterization.
18 Q. So they identify the cost, they look at the
19 amount of the benefit that those costs are spread upon,
20 and that ratio allows this prioritization to be scored,
21 correct?
22 A. Yes, I believe that's correct.
23
Q•
Have you ever heard the term score card used
24 at MSD? Is that a fair characterization; that this is an
25 MSD score card?
I
i
J
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1 A. I don't believe they use that particular term,
2 but I think that is a fair characterization.
3 Q. Okay. So the 100 projects that you looked at
4 in the binders that were prioritized, those were
5 prioritized consistent with this, in my words, MSD score
6 card, right?
7 A. I didn't look at 100 projects in the binders_
8 The binders included all the projects that have been
9 evaluated for the entire district. I did review some of
10 those in detail, and yes, they are consistent with the
11 scoring methodology that MSD uses.
12 Q. And this score card I have seen, you may not
i3 have it in front of you, but there's an MSD Exhibit 30-J
14 that they describe as a prioritization worksheet,
guidelines for use dated October 10, 2006. Does that
16 bring any recollection► to you?
17 A. yes.
18 Q. And have you reviewed that document?
1g A. I have.
20 Q. And so this score card, in my words, has been
21 around for 11, 12 years, correct?
22 A. In its original form, it predates 1995,
23 Q. And is this -- I believe you indicate that
24 this prioritization system where it allocates points for
25 prioritization of projects is unique to the district. Is
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1 that your understanding?
2 A. The district has created the system, yes-
3 Q. And based upon your review of this
4 prioritization schematic, do you believe it to be re
5 a methodology to prioritize projects?
6 A. I do, and just some background on that. I
7 have been involved in looking at this particular scoring
8 system and modeling a number of projects and then going
9 back and making recommendations to the district on how it
10 could be modified, so it has been modified over several
11 times within the history of the scoring sheet to improve
12 upon it.
13 Q. But it's been created in order to be fair --
14 tell me if this is correct. It's been created in order to
15 be fair, defensible, objective and consistent, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And it does the job?
18 A. I believe so.
19 Q. If we were to look at the capital projects,
20 and there's been a lot of discussion of the pricing, the
21 cost of fixing the projects, and in the district's own
22 proposal they indicate that the fix, the cost of this fix
23 is based upon a minimal amount of detailed information
24 available regarding geotechnical conditions. So if
25 geotechnical conditions should change, that could have a
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1 material impact upon the costs, correct?
2 A. That's quite typical in these circumstances.
3 I believe the district does have quite a long history of
4 gectechnicai issues in cur region and I think they have
5 done a good job at estimating those within the oroject
6 costs.
7 Q. But geotechnical conditions also include such
8 things as sinkholes, do they not?
9 A. Could, yes.
1C Q. You really don't know what's in a sinkhole
unless you go down and put a camera down a sinkhole,
? 2 right?
13 A. That's true.
14 Q. So that could have a material effect with
15 regard to the pricing and the fix of the cost, correct?
16 A. I would say overall in the district Program
17 those experiences are rare, but can be extremely costly.
18 Q. And utility relocation is another factor that
19 could impact costs, right?
2C A. Yes.
21 Q. And easement requirements could impact costs?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And other site -specific issues that may impact
24 costs?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And I believe you testified that with regard
2 to 100 of the projects, the first 100 projects that were
3 reviewed that were prioritized, I think you said there
4 were three projects that were identified that required
5 buyouts?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And was there any appraisal performed as to
8 what the cost of that potential buyout would be with
9 regard to those projects?
10 A. I don't know if there was an appraisal per se,
11 but it looks like they have evaluated that property and
12 assigned an appropriate cost to it.
13 Q. There's no -- how did they evaluate that
14 property, can you tell?
15 A. I cannot tell. Typically records from the
16 county or the city will be used.
17 Q. So just a general assessment, tax assessment?
18 A. Typically that's a good first level of
19 assessment of a property, yes.
20 Q. Tax assessment is a good indication of the
21 market value of a property?
22 A. I'm not sure all of the methods that MSD used
23 in this particular analysis, but it does look like they
24 have done some analysis of those properties.
25
Q.
And I think you would agree with me, if we had
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$562 million available today, could you guarantee that all
2 of these projects would be fixed?
3 A. I don't think in any civil engineering program
4 there's ever a guarantee.
Q. And if there's a heavy rain next week, there
6 may be a number of different additional complaints placed
7 into the MSD database; that's possible also, correct?
8 A. I would say that's possible, but the
9 complaints that the district has collected for these
10 projects have been happening over a significant amount of
11 time and I think that there is a good understanding of the
12 problems within the region.
13 Q. And this fix of these problems is going to
14 occur over 30 years, right?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And there's going to be more rains over the
17 next 30 years, right?
18 A. There will be.
19 Q. So in your opinion, does this $30 million rate
20 proposal adequately address and guarantee that we're going
21 to fix our problems, or are we going to be looking at
22 additional costs to complete this remediation?
23 A. As civil engineers, our job is never done,
24 We're here to serve the community in the best way we know
25 how. I think that the district has put forward a program
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1 that adequately addresses the problems that they know
2 today, and as Mr. Hoelscher has testified, it is a
3 flexible program that will be modified over time.
4 Q. And do you believe that the district should
5 consider, given the limited resources that it has from
6 ratepayers for this $30 million, and given the total issue
7 to remediate this -- all of these projects, do you believe
8 that the district should encourage third party
9 contributions to remediate these projects?
10 A. As a civil engineer, I find that to be a
11 difficult question to answer because we are concerned with
equity when it comes to the overall provisions of service
13 to the community. So we want to make sure that because
14 one community has the privilege of additional funds, that
15 their projects are not moved up in the schedule, and I
16 think Mr. Hoelscher also testified to that.
17 I think that the district does have some
18 ability to move funds from public -private --
19 public -private partnerships to projects within a given
20 fiscal year and they have testified to that.
21 Q. Let me ask you about that. Today the district
22 is seeking $30 million per year to dedicate to these
23 projects in this priority system, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Let's assume that the district were the
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beneficiary of a $10 million third party contribution
2 while this program is in effect, and that $10 million
3 contribution could identify additional projects that
4 needed remediation. The district would still have an
5 additional $10 million to remediate other projects based
6 upon the same prioritization system that you identified as
fair, defensible, feasible and objective, would it not?
8 A. It's my experience that private funds are
9 generally not provided to pro? ects that don't provide
10 revenue back, and I -- my experience is that I don't see
11 that happening very often.
12 Q. I'm not asking you what your -- I'm asking you
13 a question. If we have third party contributions of $10
14 million that are contributed consistent with this
prioritization system such that the district is not
16
spending $10 million of its funds, but third parties are
17 spending $10 million of their funds, and the district had
18 the ability to use that full $30 million to alleviate
19 other projects, aren't we fixing our problems quicker?
20 A. That would, of course, be the case.
21 Q. And isn't that fair based upon the system and
22 prioritization system that you identified?
23 A. It would be fair as long as it didn't change
24 the prioritization of the projects.
25 Q. The prioritization of the projects are based
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1 upon cost -benefit, correct?
2 A. But the cost -benefit is irrelevant of the
3 sources of the funds.
4 Q. But if the costs of the district are reduced
through third party contributions, the project
6 prioritizations would move up, correct? That's the
system. That's the fair system?
8 A. I don't believe the prioritization would
9 change based on the source of the funds. The
10 prioritization is based on the costs of the project.
11 Q.
And the funding that is remediated, reducing
12 the district's costs are scored on that system that you
13 identified as fair?
14 A. Could you repeat that?
15 Q. We talked about this prioritization worksheet,
16 DASD 30-J, the guidelines for use. It's been around or
17 it's identified as being here since 2006. It ultimately
18 develops a cost -benefit ratio when all problem and
solution points are assigned, you divide the cost estimate
20 for the project and enter it on the worksheet. The
21 cost -benefit ratio is automatically computed. The cost is
A.
22 a cost of the district, the funds that it takes to fix a
23 project; that's it, isn't it?
24 The cost is the cost of the project, yes.
25 Q. And if the district's costs of the project are
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1 reduced because third party funds are contributed, that's
2 good, isn't it?
3 A. The cost is not reduced. The cost remains the
4 same. The source of the funds changes.
5 Q. And if the district is not expending its funds
6 with respect to that project, it can use its funds to
7 remediate other projects within our 520 square mile
8 district, we get our projects fixed quicker, correct?
9 A. Public -private partnerships benefit the
10 overall civil infrastructure, yes.
Q. Thank you. I just have one other question,
12 and that is Question 12 on your testimony. The question
13 is do the district's proposed incentive and credit program
R4 provide sufficient incentive to achieve a reduction in
15 effective impervious area within the service area, and
16 your answer is that the incentive and credit programs
17 identified provide nominal benefits to property owners;
18 that's your testimony?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What can we do to change that? How can we
21 provide more than nominal benefits to property owners?
22 How can we incentivize property owners to contribute?
23 A. I believe we've talked about a number of those
24 ways today,
25 Q. Okay. Well, help me out, because we haven't
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1 come up with one that works that I've heard.
2
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A. Well, that's a separate question. My belief
3 is that green solutions will not solve the problems that
4 are presented in the district's program.
5 Q. They don't hurt, do they?
6 A. They definitely don't hurt, unless you're
7 taking away funds from those projects, and so to provide
8 additional incentives or credits that would reduce funds
9 from the overall program, I do believe would be hurting
10 the projects that are being proposed.
11 COMMISSIONER PALANS: I have no further
12 questions. Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Palans.
14 Further questions from any of the other Rate Commissioners
15 at this time?
16 COMMISSIONER CROYLE: I have one comment. I
17 participated in an outreach program as part of Clear for
18 doing the rain garden and things like that in our
19 neighborhood. St. Louis has old neighborhoods that do not
20 remediate by additional projects, and that's one of the
21 reasons that the incentive programs don't work. It's not
22 that people don't want to do it. It's that you can't
23 implement them because the way the structure is.
24 We had already had our raised beds around the
25 house to collect rain water runoff. We maintain a green
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strip in our driveway, we have rain barrels, so therefore
2 we weren't eligible for any of the grants. Not that we
3 1 mean -- so I think the nature of the neighborhoods in
4 St. Louis contribute to that. I think you need to note
5 that, that St. Louis is unique. We have a lot of water, a
6 lot of older neighborhoods. We have a lot of
7 infrastructure that's -- I mean you can do things, but
8 it's not going to help in those terms.
9 CHAIRMAN TOENJES : Thank you. Yes.
10 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER RATZKI:
11 Q. Nicole, it sounds like you spent a lot of time
12 looking at those reports, and from what I can get from
13 your testimony in Question Number 11, that at least two or
14 three consultants have used that prioritization system in
15 the past in stormwater studies for MSD. We're talking
16 about -- and I guess the fact has been made that MSD
17 hasn't been able to spend very much capital funds on
18 stormwater during that time period. Now if we go ahead
19 with this rate, we're going to probably have six to 10
23 times as much money as the district has ever had for
21 capital improvements and a lot of projects.
22 Do you see the possibility of correlating the
23 post -construction benefits and effects of these projects
24 back to that prioritization system to make that
25 prioritization system more accurate and better to be used
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1 by the district going forward over 30 years?
2 A. Yes, and that was a recommendation that I
3 suggested in my testimony.
4 COMMISSIONER RATZKI: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Ratzki.
6 Further -- yes, Mr. Goss.
7 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
8 Q. Nicole, Question 9 of your testimony, if you
9 look at that, if I understand your answer, just to
10 paraphrase, you believe that the district's evaluation of
11 the capital projects was sufficient; is that right?
12 A. I da.
13 Q. And the methodology was sufficient?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And reasonable and prudent?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you would disagree with Mr. Gorman's
18 testimony?
19 A. I would, and based on his testimony, I do not
20 believe that he has reviewed the same information that I
21 have. I would encourage him to look at the 53 plus three
22 binders that are available.
23 Q. And in Question 10 I believe your answer
24 I'm paraphrasing -- but make sure I got it right, is that
25 the district's cost estimates calculation was adequate,
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its methodology was adequate; is that right?
2 A. It is, and I know there's been some discussion
3 of the testimony that it only took a few minutes to
4 provide the cost estimates. When you're looking at cost
5 estimates, there's a number of steps to do that. There's
6 a quantity takeoff, there are a number of steps that are
7 taken to assess the unit value costs that are put into
8 that. So while each project may only take a few moments
9 tc actually calculate that end resin..,, there is
10 substantial work that goes in before that to come up with
_1 the data that goes into that.
12 Q. And so you would believe that their cost
13 calculations are reasonable and prudent?
14 A. _ do.
15 Q. And it's come up several times that there's
16 been no inclusion of the cost of acquiring easements in
17 these cost estimates_ Do you recall that?
18 A. I do recall that. However, MSD does have a
19 lump sum per year that is included in the CIBF.
20 Q. So these individual projects, MSD has a
21 standard now that they put in that cost estimate for
22 easements; is that right? Did I hear you correctly?
23 A. Based on the testimony that has been provided,
24 I don't believe that's accurate. My understanding is that
25 the district has not provided specific costs assigned to
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1 easements in the individual project costs, but that is
2 provided as a lump sum annually within the program.
3 Q. So of this -- let me see if I can approach it
A this way. So of the $30 million that we're going to be
able to spend in one year, MSD has already estimated --
6 let's pick a number -- that $1 million will go to
7 easements; is that right? Some number --
8 A. I believe it's around $900,000, so yes.
Q. There you go. I was pretty close. I'm going
10 to buy a lottery ticket. I'm buying a lottery ticket
11 today, I'm telling you. So there is a number in that $30
12 million that they did allocate for easements?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. And that, it's your understanding, is
15 based on from historical costs?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And looking at Question 11 of your testimony
18 where you were asked if the district's prioritization
19 system is common practice and is it appropriate, you
20 comment that the district has -- it's the second paragraph
21 -- second paragraph, second sentence, "The district has
22 modeled a number of projects with the algorithm from the
23 scoring." Do you know how many projects the district has
24 modeled?
25 A. I don't, offhand. When I was involved in a
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1 program with the district, there were thousands of
2 projects that we modeled using the system, and then it was
3 adjusted from there.
4 Q. Do you know why it was adjusted?
5 A. There were some projects that weren't -- as
6 you can see, over time -- the system was originally based
7 on prioritization of a scoring of one to nine. That
8 scoring did not provide enough differentiation between
9 projects and there were some issues in insuring that
10 projects were lumped within the same category of problem,
and so over time that was adusted.
12 And in locking at the overall projects, 1
13 think there were times where there was question about how
14 some projects were falling cut within that ranking, so
1G
there was some technical adjustment to that algorithm to
16 make sure that projects were falling within the
17 appropriate ranking.
18 Q. How would you know if they fall in the
1° appropriate ranking? What does appropriate mean?
20 A. That's based on engineering experience of
21 understanding the projects and how they differ and just a
22 technical decision on how they should be prioritized.
23 Q. I'm just stepping back.
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. Because I'm not an engineer. What do you mean
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1 by appropriate? Help me with that context. I don't
2 understand what that means.
3
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A. If we were looking at five different projects,
4 there would be I guess a gut reaction on which projects
5 would be more effective, which would provide more benefit,
6 which would solve more problems for the community, and
7 that was looked at for a number of projects. And then the
8 scoring was adjusted for that, so then you can go back and
9 rerun the model to see if they fall out in the correct
10 prioritization.
11 Q. Okay. And were there -- are there rankings or
12 cutoffs -- let me go back now. Were there rankings or
13 cutoffs for this prioritization like 200 to 190 is an
14 excellent or really problematic project and -- is there
15 cutoffs in the system?
16 A. Typically that is done. I don't know for this
17 specific program. That analysis was not provided, but I
18 think that does fall out when you look at the CIRP as far
1g as how they're annualized for the budget so the highest
20 prioritization projects are performed earlier in the
21 program.
22 Q. But when you said that they adjusted the model
23 based on what their kind of belief was as to the -- where
24 the projects should fall, so there's some subjective
25 component; is that right?
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1 A. That's correct. It is, yes.
2 Q. And so there's kind of -- in some ways it's
3 result oriented, the way they adjusted this model, because
4 they said this project isn't coming out where it should
be?
n A. When the model was originally being set up and
7 tested, yes, that's correct. There is some engineering
8 subjective judgment that is put into that.
9 Q. And so we talked about the scale, it was one
10 to nine, and then Horner & Shifrin issued a report, pretty
11 lengthy, in '95 and said -- made a recommendation that the
12 scale be changed, and MSD responded to that and came up
13 with a one to 200 scale, or is it 10 to 200 scale; is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you said that allowed for greater
17 differentiation of projects, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. So tell me more about that
2C differentiation. What did that cause on this scale? Did
21 you get a more normalized curve for projects that you
22 weren't seeing before? If so, how many projects were
23 falling into the worst category and so on? How does that
24 help?
2F A. I was not involved in chat specific cro;ect
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1 and so I couldn't say directly, but typically when you
2 have a greater differentiation, it does allow, when you're
3 talking about this many projects, it does allow for what I
4 would call bucketing of projects in different categories
5 so that you see that the higher ranked projects are
6 prioritized in the higher level.
7 Q. And what's magic about 200? Why wouldn't you
8 use 350?
9 A. You could.
10 Q. And you could use 500?
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. So there's nothing objective about that; it's
13 just a number that MSD felt was giving enough
14 differentiation to these projects that they felt
15 comfortable; is that a fair statement?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And so when I'm thinking about these numbers
18 and the differentiation of these numbers, if I have a
19 project that comes out with a score of 70 and another
20 project that comes out with a score of 69, is that
21 meaningful?
22 A. Typically, no.
23
Q.
Okay. What level of point difference do I
24 need to see to where I would say that's meaningful, that's
25 a different degree of project?
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1 A. Yeah, and I'm just looking at some of the
2 cost -benefit pints that are assigned for projects we're
3 looking at.
c Q. Are you looking at that worksheet which was
5 Exhibit K; is that right, or something else?
6 A. I'm actually looking at the CIR?,
Q. Okay.
8
9 one of the
A.
I'm looking at the spreadsheet,
bay
it is in
1C Q. There's an Exhibit 30-L --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- that has a list of projects.
13 A. So when we look at rankings here, as you can
14 see, in the first year we're looking at scores that are
15 generally above one or thereabouts. You know, there's
16 some projects with scores of -- high scores of 22, and
17 then as you go lower in the program into the final years,
18 most of the scores are below one.
19 Q. So this is your first run-through of these
20 projects; is that right, or MSD's first run-through?
21 A. I'm not sure how many times the district has
22 locked at the prioritization of these, but they have been
23 looked at several times since 1995.
24 Q. Does MSD have a rule as to when they revisit
25 this ranking system, like every year or every five years,
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1 anything that you know of?
2 A. I don't believe so. Typically projects of
3 this sort haven't changed over decades of time. If I can
4 give some anecdote, I worked on a project in 2001 to
5 provide prioritizations to a number of these types of
6 projects and I saw it studied three times since then. It
7 came up in a proposal to do the engineering design, I
8 think in 2016. That project, when we went out to talk to
9 the homeowners during the engineering of the project, one
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 yards, water in the street for many, many years. And I
17 think that, you know, when you look at these, the problems
18 haven't changed, you know, the solutions haven't really
19 changed. It's really a matter of getting the funding to
20 implement them at this point.
21 Q. So let me -- two questions just on this
22 Exhibit 30-L. It doesn't look to me like all 500 some -odd
23 projects are listed here. So which projects are listed
24 here and which ones aren't, which fell out?
25 A. Yeah. Sure. So the projects that are listed
I _
of the homeowners came out to me, he actually was a
laborer, and he broke out in tears because he had not had
his project addressed in decades of time and he was so
happy that someone was there that actually cared.
So many of these projects homeowners have been
dealing with water in their basements, water in their back
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1 are through fiscal year 24, and so I -- my understanding
2 is the district took a first cut cf the projects that
3 would be done first and they started to program those out.
4 Q. Based on this priority ranking number?
5 A. ves.
6 Q. And a number of these projects have a category
7 of erosion, so wouldn't it be true that erosion would be
8 something that would be ongoing over time?
9 A. No: if you provide an engineering solution to
10 stopit.
Q. Well, I understand that, but we aren't
12 providing engineering solution, because we don't have a
13 stormwater program.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So if you had these projects listed and
16 there's erosion, is it reasonable to assume that this
17 erosion is getting worse with time?
18 A. Usually, yes.
19 Q. And so how do you know, with any degree of
20 engineering certainty, that this ranking system is
21 accurate given the time, the effect of time on the
22 severity of these problems?
23 A. Typically homeowners with erosion problems
24 will call year after year after year. I've heard them
25 sometimes speak at some of the MSC board meetings. The
A
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1 district has a pretty good understanding of the major
2 erosion problems that are happening and I think that does
3 get reflected because of the caller complaints in the
cost -benefit analysis.
Q. So if this is the priority of the projects, is
6 it reasonable for me to assume that the projects in fiscal
7 year 25 would be starting below .71 or something like
that? I'm kind of looking for the lowest number here .67.
9 I notice it going down from .67, or is that not right?
10 A. Yeah, some of these -- I don't have a full
11 understanding of all the reasons why the district has
12 programmed these into specific years. Some of them, it
13 looks like, are phased, so that may have some effect on
14 it. I think some of them are, you know, smaller projects
15 that may have been connected to larger projects.
16 I'm really not sure of all of the reasons why
17 they've been prioritized this way. It does look like they
18 are lumped into, as I said earlier, like buckets of
lq priority rankings and that those that have a higher
20 ranking are being programmed first.
21 Q. Now, is the listing on here, this will be the
22 order in which they will be taken, right?
23 A. MSD typically will take a grouping of projects
24 in any fiscal year and compete those out depending on the
25 design of the project and the site conditions. As
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Councilman Palans has referred to, those projects during
2 engineering may slide a little bit, but that is typically
? based on that fiscal year.
4 Q. Okay. So am I understanding the chart
correctly that the first project that will be done is the
6 Hallatead Storm Channel Phase IV because that's the first
7 project listed?
8 A. I don't believe that's necessarily the case,
9 but those grouping of projects within FY-22 will happen --
10 I mean will start within chat period of time.
11 Q. So it wouldn't be correct for me to assume the
12 Dunleer Avenue 6901 Storm Sewer will be the first project
13 to be performed?
14 A. I don't believe that the district has gone
15 through that level of planning at this stage to put these
16 into a greater schedule for the district. It's just based
17 on what fiscal year. That's the basis of the information
18 that they have at this point and I think that's reasonable
19 given where we are.
20 Q. And the Dunleer project has a 22.4 priority
21 rating, which I think is the highest on this list of
22 projects. Would you agree? Highest I found.
21 A It seems to be, yes.
24 Q. So the -- and that has a cost budget of
25 $28,000; is that right?
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1
A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have any idea what went into that
3 $28,000?
4 A. We could look into that, but I don't have that
5 here today.
6 Q. But that data is available --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- at MSD?
A. Yes.
10 Q. And then the Hallstead project, that was $5.2
million, so help me understand why Dunleer -- and this
12 will help me understand this cost -benefit ratio. So the
13 Hallstead project is obviously very expensive and it gets
14 a lower priority rating of 1.25 over the Dunleer project
15 which gets a very high priority, is very cheap, $28,000,
16 relatively speaking.
17 So is that because that's the way the
18 cost -benefit formula is working and so this is a
1g relatively inexpensive project so its priority ranking
20 moves up, or am I misunderstanding that?
21 A. Looking at the way these are ranked, and the
22 district has a couple of different formats in the CIRP.
23 To me, these look to be categorized based on budget, so
24 within fiscal year 2 you have category of erosion,
25 localized flooding, and there are -- actually there's a
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1 regional flooding project at the bottom, but each of those
2 categories are then ranked by budget, so if you'll look at
3 the budget line, it goes the first Project is $5 million
4 and it goes down from there and then it restarts at the
5 Loretta project at, you know, $1.6 million and goes down.
6 So this is not a schedule of how the projects would be
7 performed. It's just a listing of the projects for that
8 fiscal year that is -- it's not any sort of scheduled
9 format_
10 Q. Okay. So is it accurate to say that MSD has
11 taken a grouping of erosion projects and done a priority
12 ranking and then a grouping of local flooding projects,
13 then a priority ranking, and then also selected a regional
14 flooding project for fiscal year 22 and then engaged in
15 the same thing for fiscal year 23 and 24?
16 A. 1 don't know that they were necessarily
17 prioritized into that fiscal year because they were either
18 an erosion or localized flooding, but they were listed in
19 this table that way. My understanding is the district has
20 categorized them based on the priority ranking and this
21 table has listing, you know, that has been alphabetized or
22 provided in high to low numbers based on certain
23 categories.
24 Q. Okay. Let me -- I'm going to take another
25 shot at that. Is -- what I thought I heard you saying is
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1 MSD has three kinds of projects, erosion projects, local
2 flooding and then regional flooding?
3 A. For this fiscal year those projects are listed
4 in this fiscal year. I believe there's probably other
5 projects --
6 Q. Looking at this list, I don't see them. I see
7 categories of erosion, local flooding and regional
8 flooding. Those are the three types of projects I see,
9 and I think that comports with what we've heard from MSD
10 as to how they're sorting these things.
11 A. Yeah, I'm going through the spreadsheet and
12 that does look to be correct.
13 Q. So in prioritizing these projects, do you know
14 if MSD said, okay, we're going to take a certain number of
15 erosion projects -- we're going to take all of our erosion
16 projects and we're going to prioritize them, then we're
17 going to take some percentage of and put those erosion
18 projects in the fiscal year 22, and the next group goes to
19 23 and next group 24 and then did the same thing with
20 localized flooding? Do you know if that's how they did
21 that?
22 A. Just looking at the spreadsheet, there's also
23 a category of maintenance in addition to the ones that
24 were already listed. Because this spreadsheet is not --
25 it's protected, I can't do sorts, so I don't know, but I
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1 do not believe that is the case. My understanding is that
2 they were ranked based on the project benefit -cost scoring
3 and you're seeing a listing of that that falls out
4 different ways.
5 Q. Okay. So I don't see on my Exhibit 30-L
6 maintenance as a category. Can you tell me where that is?
7 A. Sure. Exhibit MSD 41-F.
8 Q. Okay. Different exhibit.
9 A. It's project 11101, Lewis and Clark Boulevard,
13
looks like there was a cave-in, so they're doing some
11 maintenance construction.
12 Q. Okay. I logged onto the site and that's an
13 Excel file that's available on request, so I don't have
14 that.
15 A. It is also provided in PDF format.
16 Q. Just not in our documents that I have
17 available. I'm sorry.
18 R. Okay.
19 Q. So when I look at Exhibit 30-L and I look at
20 fiscal year 22, this Dunleer Avenue project which is a
21 22.4 is included in that year, but when I go to fiscal
22 year 23, I have Oleatha Avenue project which is a 15.4
23 priority rating. Do you know why the Oleatha Avenue
24 project with a high priority rating of 15.4, which I think
25 is the second highest priority rating in this list, is in
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1 fiscal year 23 as opposed to fiscal year 22 if we're using
2 this prioritization system?
3 A. I am looking for that project.
4
6
MS. STUMP: May I interrupt for just a moment?
CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Ms. Stump, please do.
MS. STUMP: Mr. Goss, obviously from your
7 questioning, I think that there are a lot of questions on
8 this, how the district is doing this list, so I think we
9 will submit an additional discovery request to the
10 district to try to get some of these questions answered.
11 I know that doesn't help you today, but that way we will
12 have in the record the district's response to these
13 questions.
14 COMMISSIONER GOSS: That would be very helpful
15 and I would appreciate that.
16 Q. (By Commissioner Goss) Did you find the
17 project that I was talking about? It's on the second page
18 about 10 items down.
19 A. Yes. There's not enough information here to
20 be able to determine that.
21
Q. As to why that even though it had --
22 because I thought this list was, and this selection of
23 projects was based upon the prioritization ranking and the
24 prioritization system, and so I don't understand how, if
25 that's true, this 15.4 could have been bumped to fiscal
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1 year 23 as opposed to fiscal year 22.
2 A. Yeah, and _ don't :now specifically on that
3 project. I will say some of these are phased out, so
4 there may be a related project earlier in the program that
5 that project can't be completed until something, so the
6 district will have to answer that specific question,
7 Q. Okay. And so when we were talking about
8 differences in priority rankings and the meaningfulness of
9 these numbers, some of these numbers -- there's a .81
10 project and a .82 project. Is that a meaningful
11 difference to prioritize those projects?
12 A. It is not, but those are both happening in
13 that same fiscal year.
14 Q. Yeah, I see that. I'm just trying to figure
15 out what -- I think one of the questions I had asked you
16 earlier, I'm not sure we answered it, was when does the
17 spread in these numbers become meaningful, and can you
18 tell from looking at this list? Because it looks to me
19 like they get down to some fractional amounts pretty
2U quickly, and if this is what we're using as our priority
21 system, I don't understand how we're slicing that pie up.
22 A. And the district would have to explain that
23 more directly as far as what buckets they put these
24 projects into. We also don't have the full -- you know,
25 there's several more binders full of projects that are not
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1 listed here, so we're looking at a sampling of projects
2 that are higher in the priority ranking system that have
3 been programmed in the first few years.
4 Q. I think one of my concerns have been because
the differentiation between a .81 and a .82 isn't
6 meaningful was that it's somewhat arbitrary that a project
will get bumped later to a later year, maybe a .82, and
8 the .81 project doesn't get taken up because it was, you
9 know, a hundredth of a point less. But it doesn't appear
10 that that is the case. It appears these projects are
11 organized in different sort of basis, because I'm not
12 seeing under the priority system that kind of rigid
13 numbering which I would have anticipated had that been the
14 way we were following this.
15 A. It's hard to tell based on this listing
16 because it's not ranked by the project number
17 specifically. I don't have the capacity to do that with
18 the Excel spreadsheet, so I think we would have to ask the
19 district for more information to be able to do that.
20 Q. Okay. And I can tell, just based on the fact
21 that I can see the same numbers in different fiscal years,
22 so I know that that's not occurring.
23 A. I'm looking at --
24
Q•
I can see a go ahead. I'm sorry.
25 A. I'm looking at some of the other projects that
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are on the larger list which --
2 Q. I don't have.
3 A. -- you don't have. Some of them are in the
4 .08 range, so, you know -- the district may have moved
5 different projects based on various reasons that may not
6 be clear from what we're seeing here today. As I said►
7 some of them are phased, some of them have related
8 projects. l know there has been a greater coordination
9 between municipalities and other entities such as MODCT to
10 try and find out it there's efficiencies in doing projects
11 at the same time, you know, one municipality is redoing a
12 road and you're putting in a stormwater project, they may
13 have programmed that to be aligned with another project in
14 the region. I'm just not sure, so the district would have
15 tc answer those questions.
16 Q. Okay. And just so I understand what the
17 priority ranking number is, when I look at Exhibit 30-K
18 and I come up with total points for problems and solutions
19 and I divide that by cost, that's what got me that
20 priority rating; is that right, that fractional number?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. So if that's the case, the cost that
23 we're dividing here are the costs that MSD would incur in
24 this project, right?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Okay. So it's an MSD cost. So if I reduce
2 the MSD cost, then the priority goes up, right, because
3 it's --
4 A. If you're able to reduce a cost on a given
5 project, yes.
6 Q. Okay. That's what I thought. So if I have a
7 third party source that's paying for the costs, MSD's cost
8 goes down, so the priority will go up, because that's what
9 this cost is all about. It's really MSD's cost. We don't
10 have an objective system here that separates or accounts
11 for third party costs that --
12 A. I would not say that. The cost is not source
13 driven.
14 Q. I get it.
15 A. So to reduce the cost, you would have to, say,
16 reduce the amount of pipe or
17 Q. Let me ask you this. Do any of those costs
18 consider anyone else's costs, like the costs to MODOT that
19 might be associated with traffic control?
20 A. Well --
21 Q. I don't think they do. I think it's MSD's
22 cost. MSD is trying to figure out where should we put our
23 time and talent, right? They don't care how much MODOT is
24 going to spend on traffic control. They might, you know,
25 sympathetically care, but they don't care in terms of
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1 prioritizing the projects.
2 A. Typically if there is another entity involved,
3 MSD does bear those costs on their projects.
4 Q. What if they didn't. Do they always?
5 A. In the projects that I've been involved in,
6 MSD bears the cost of other entities when they oerform
7 their projects.
8 Q. Okay. So it's an MSD cost. So if that third
9 party said -- if MODOT says I'll pay the program costs,
10 the traffic control costs, I'm paying them, then MSD's
li cost would go down, right?
12 A. If a portion of the project cost went down,
13 yes, the project cost would be reduced.
14 Q. Okay. So if a municipality was paying those
1' project costs, then MSD's cost would go down, correct?
16 A. The project cost would not, though.
17 Q. Well, I'm confused now because we just said,
18 like the MODOT example, MODOT is paying -- MSD is paying
19 MODOT's costs.
20 A. That's a project cost.
21 Q. Okay. That's a project cost. And if there
22 are project costs associated that a municipality was
23 paying, that would cause the project cost to go down?
24 A. If there was a project cost that the
23 municipality was paying, yes. I'm not sure what that
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1 circumstance would be.
2 Q. Well, wouldn't it -- couldn't it be that the
3 municipality would say we're going to pay for the cost of
4 the pipe, which is a project cost?
5 A. That's a source of funding, not a project
6 cost, though.
Q. And so notwithstanding that MSD will pay less
money, you don't think that's going to change the
9 prioritization of it?
10 A. It wouldn't based on the way this is done.
11 Q. Well, let me ask you, do you think that they
12 ought to change their prioritization rating system so that
13 it did? Because don't they really want to know what their
14 cost --
15 A. I personally don't think that would be fair or
16 equitable, no.
17 Q. Okay. Explain why that wouldn't be fair and
18 equitable. I think you mentioned earlier in Mr. Palans'
19 answer, and I'm not sure I quite understood, so help me
20 out.
21 A. Because equity helps to take the equation of
22 privilege and money out of our civil infrastructure and so
23 you're providing services in an equitable way across the
24 community. So you don't want to have people that have
25 more money buying the priority of their projects.
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1 Q. So you don't want people who consider
2 stormwater to be of greater urgency and need and are
3 willing to pay for it because they believe their problem
4 is so severe to be able to help their community out by
5 paying part of those stormwater costs; is that what you're
6 telling me?
7 A. What I'm saying is that if their project is
8 severe, it's being ranked higher in the priority system so
9 it will be done at an ea-1 - or point in the schedule. I
10 think the district has said that they would consider third
11 party money within a fiscal year in order to accent those
12 funds and get that project done quicker within that fiscal
13 year so as not to fund other prioritizaticns of other
14 projects.
15 Q. A long time ago in this testimony we talked
16 about how this system is subjective. Do you remember
17 that?
18 A. The --
19 Q. MSD's system, when they made these kinds of
2C cnanges.
21 A. I wouldn't say the ranking system is
22 subjective. I would say that when the system was
23 initially developed, there was some engineering
24 subjectivity that was performed in determining the
25 appropriateness of the model and how the algorithm fell
}
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1 out, but the system itself is not subjective.
2
Q•
Page 121
So there's no assumptions in this system of
3 assigning these different values; that's not occurring,
4 they're just objective values?
5
6
A. You're correct in that.
Q•
I thought so. So that means there is
7 subjectivity in the system; you would admit that, correct?
8 A. There is subjectivity in the assignment of the
9 points, yes.
10 Q. Do you know if any source, do you know any
11 organization, independent of MSD and independent of the
12 St. Louis community such as Horner & Shifrin, which is
13 part of the St. Louis community, has evaluated this
14 utilization system and priority system?
15 A. I don't believe anyone outside of the region
16 has evaluated this particular system.
17
Q.
Okay. For example, ASTM, I'm sure you're
18 familiar with them, they're a standards rating
19 organization. An organization like that, have they ever
20 looked at this?
21 A. No-
22 Q. Do you know what other districts use as their
23 prioritization systems?
24
A. This is a very typical type of system for all
25 capital improvement programs.
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Q. Other than variables may be different
2 depending what that district felt was a priority?
3 A. Or a different type of utility, yes.
4 Q. Or a different ranking and number system?
5 A. Of course.
6 COMMISSIONER BROCKMANN: Mr. Chairman, if I
7 may, could we consider taking a break for lunch at this
8 time?
9 COMMISSIONER GOSS: I'm almost done. If I
10 might finish my questions, I would Like to do that.
_1 COMMISSIONER CROYLE: My blood sugar is
12 dropping.
COMMISSIONER GOSS: Well, I don't want your
14 blood pressure to drop, but --
1.7 COMMISSIONER CRCYLE: No, my blood sugar.
16 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Let's take a break.
17 CHAIRMAN -OENJES: We will break for lunch
18 until 1:00 P.N.
10 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken from
2C 12:20 to 1:14 P.M.)
21 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: With that, we will ask Ms.
22 Young to return and we will continue with the testimony.
23 Mr. Goss, please continue.
24 Q. (By Commissioner Goss) Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman. Looking at your testimony in question with
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1 respect to your background and work experience, can you --
2 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: Mr. Chairman, I'm
3 sorry. I can't hear down here.
4 COMMISSIONER GOSS: I don't know that this is
5 on. Is that better?
6 COMMISSIONER MAHFOOD: It's not on. Thank
7 you.
8 MR. HOELSCHER: Mr. Goss, if you want, you can
9 take that out of the holder if that's helpful.
10
Q. (By Commissioner Goss) Appreciate the offer.
11 Looking at your work experience and background in Question
12 4, could you go through that experience and tell me what
13 specifically involved stormwater projects or stormwater
14 review?
15 A. Sure.
16
Q.
Because it looked like there was some that was
17 wastewater and some were stormwater and I don't want to
18 get way down in the weeds, but stay pretty high --
19 A. Sure. So beginning in my career I did start
20 on environmental assessment, so that would not have
21 included stormwater experience. Beginning in 2001 I
22 started working on what was then called the SKME project.
23 That was originally the program planning for the
24 wastewater, but because we were working areas that
25 required separation and also some additional stormwater,
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we were looking at stormwater issues within that whole
2 program.
3
4 watershed, the largest watershed within
I was responsible for the River Des Peres
e district, so
5 any of those projects that fell underneath RDP would have
6 been under my responsibility for modeling, determining the
7 projects that came out of that and setting up very similar
8 program to what is in the CRP that you see here today.
9 That's -- earlier when I referenced a project that was
10 planned in 2001 and wasn't actually constructed until this
11
past year, that stormwater project came out of that
12 program.
13 From there, I have worked on a number of
14 stormwater design projects over the years including hard
15 piping and green land -- green infrastructure 3MPs for the
16 district. I've worked for other communities.
=7 Specifically on stormwater we've done some work with
18 Jefferson City, Missouri, some small projects. I should
19 say large projects with smaller communities such as City
20 of Moberly, Macon, Kirksville and Old Monroe up in Lincoln
21 County.
22 Recently we did some hardscaping projects for
23 MSD underneath the Gravois A contract which included
24 several projects that had been planned for a couple of
25 decades, and we're currently doing work with developers in
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24
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1 the area, hotels, health care association -- or health
2 care buildings. We've done some insurance companies and
3 some other type work.
4 Q. Thank you. And I saw in your background that
you worked at CDM and you were working on some municipal
6 solutions focusing on wastewater, and there was an initial
7 implementation of stormwater rate structure that you said
8 you became tangentially involved in toward the end of the
9 project. What was that kind of tangential involvement?
10 A. Yeah. So I was responsible for the CDM office
in St. Louis during that time period. I came in in the
12 middle of the rate commission that was convened at that
13 time. Steve Sedgwick was the expert from CDM that
14 provided some services, you won't may remember him from
15 that time period.
16 They did look at a similar impervious area.
17 Because Steve reported through my office, I was working
18 with him and had a general understanding of what was
19 happening at that time, but was not directly involved with
20 the project.
21 Q. So it wasn't a direct report to you. So in
all that history, what involvement have you had with
stormwater credit programs and setting those programs up
or evaluating the effectiveness of them?
A. I have had no experience in setting those up.
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1 My experience on the credit programs has been working with
2 developers to evaluate whether they wanted to participate
3 in those or not, and generally my experience is that they
4 have not.
5 Q. And those developers would be commercial
6 developers?
A. That's correct.
8 Q. Have you worked with any residential
9 developers?
10 A. l have not.
Q.
In thinking about a credit program, one of the
12 problems that I think you and I had talked about before
13 the break were stormwater retention basins that were
14 developed in the '70s and '80s per MSD specifications, but
=5 now we realize with more time, those aren't functioning
16 the way we had hoped they would, there are deficiencies
1-7 with them. Do you remember that?
18 A. 1 believe that was during the last meeting,
19 but yes, : do remember it.
2� Q. So we talked about it. Time flies.
2y A. Yes.
22 Q. So in those subdivisions the stormwater issues
23 which the residents are dealing with principally are their
24 retention basins. That's how they're handling their
25 stormwater in those subdivisions, and does that make
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1 sense?
2 A. That's a part of the solution for that, yes.
3 Q. Right. So in thinking about a credit program,
4 I know I had asked MSD could a homeowners association
5 qualify for a credit program, and the answer was no,
6 because they don't have taxable property. If they had a
7 clubhouse or something, they would, and very little of
8 those, so all I'm focusing on is the stormwater retention
9 basin.
10 Would it be possible or do you think it would
11 be effective if the homeowners whose stormwater retention
12 is being addressed in the stormwater retention basin would
13 be able to apply for the credit for that stormwater basin
14 and essentially pool their credit, so if they had 20
15 homeowners and they've got 135 bucks that's coming to each
16 of them, they can pool that credit and apply that to the
17 retention basin. Do you think that would be an effective
18 program? Do you have any opinion on that?
19 A. I don't have any experience or understanding
20 of those issues, so I'll have to defer to others.
21 COMMISSIONER GOSS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 That's all.
23 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Goss. Mr.
24 Bresnan, do you have a comment?
25 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRESNAN:
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Q.
The question I have, Nicole, for you is in
2 your experience in looking at the -- I won't say
3 prioritisation of the dollar amounts, I would say it would
4 be safe to assume that when you look at these amounts,
you would do it by perhaps a region, not, you know, a $5
6 million critical area and a $2 million critical area. It
7 would be based over like say a pocket of, say, South St.
8 Louis where it would be more cost effective to treat a
number of issues, erosion, flooding and that. It's not
10 just based on a dollar amount figure, it's based on the
11 need and, again, an area. You know, I think it could be
12 -- you know, we're looking at this and it could be
13 misleading to the public inasmuch as somebody sees that►
14 you know, this isn't slated for 2024, when, in fact, it
15 might be sooner based on the necessity to the region, not
16 just a dollar amount on an area.
17 Then the other comment I have is on that
18 dollar assessment, sometimes municipalities overlay, so if
19 there was an outside entity that wanted to participate,
20 could pay more, could it be -- in your experience, could
21 it bog it down by doing that where, you know, somebody
22 might be able to pay 10 percent more, but the area crosses
23 where the other side of the street wouldn't benefit, so
24 from an outside standpoint it looks more fair how it's set
23 up is to get outside entities, although I'm not opposed to
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1 it, I'm just trying to see for the basic policy, the basic
2 homebuyer, what's the most fair across the board. That's
3 my question.
4 A. There generally are conditions to
5 public -private partnerships and those sometimes can bog
6 down projects. I think in the way that they've been
7 discussed, it wouldn't be an issue, but as I've testified,
8 I think it is fair and equitable the way that it's set up
9 currently.
10 COMMISSIONER BRESNAN: Thank you. No further
11 questions.
12 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Bresnan.
13 Anyone else?
14 COMMISSIONER GOSS: I did have one follow-up.
15 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Mr. Goss.
16 QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER GOSS:
17 Q. I thought in your testimony what you had told
18 me earlier on this prioritization system was that the
lc) number of people benefitted by the project was included in
20 the scoring. Isn't that right?
21 A. I don't believe that I testified to that.
22
Q.
Well, it's in your answer. It's in Question
23 11, the answer to it. You say H&S and CDM recommended
24 inclusion of project cost and number of people benefitted
25 in the scoring, as well as increasing the scale to allow
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for greater differentiation.
And that, in fact, is what I
2 understand the prioritization scale does, does it not?
3 A. Yes.
4
6
7
8
9
10
Ii A.
12
7q
14 any of the
15
16
17
18 Q.
19 today and a
20 that MSD's,
21 appropriate
22 accurate?
23 A.
24
5 2
L .�
Q.
Q.
So, in fact, when the prioritization numbers
are created, they are taking into effect the number of
people that
A.
Q.
are benefitted?
They are.
So this regional
question that was just
raised, that should be accounted for in the scoring,
should it not?
It should be.
COMMISSIONER GOSS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr. Goss. Do
other Rate Commissioners have questions for Ms.
Young? Ms. Myers, do you have questions for Ms. Young.
MS.MYERS: I have a couple.
QUESTIONS ?Y MS. MYERS:
Okay. You have provided us a lot of testimony
lot of written testimony about your conclusion
the way the projects are outlined, are
and the cost estimates are sufficient; is that
Yes.
So is that consistent with industry standards
in your conclusion?
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1
A. I believe so, yes.
Page 131
2 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that it is not an
3 industry standard with a program such as this to have
4 detailed engineering prior to having the funding for such
5 programs?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to hand you Exhibit RC-44
8 which is your rebuttal testimony, and I'm going to ask you
9 to look at Question 12. Question 12 is -- it's the last
10 -- well, second to last question on Page 6. Would you
11 read the portion that I have highlighted there, please.
12 A. "However, it is unlikely that BMPs will have a
13 significant effect in reducing the civil infrastructure
14 investments necessary in the program. While it is
15 beneficial to install BMPs, MSD needs to collect the funds
16 in order to build the stormwater infrastructure or
17 undertake buyouts included in the CIRP.
18 Increasing incentives or credits may increase
19 BMPs without actually achieving a reduction in effective
20 impervious area where needed. Additionally, BMPs are
21 expensive to build and maintain. In my experience, the
22 amount of incentive or credit that would need to be
23 provided to gain interest from residential or commercial
24 property owners would need to equal the cost to the
25 property owner to inspire participation is not regulated
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1 to gain a green certification, or altruistic." 1 don't
2 believe I wrote that correctly.
3 : can go back. In my exoerience, the amount
4 of incentive or credit that would need to be provided to
5 gain interest from residential or commercial property
6 owners would need to equal the cost to the property owner
7 to inspire participation that is not regulated tc gain
8 green certification or altruistic things to happen, in
9 that last phrasing ---
1fl
Q.
Well, can you explain in a little bit of
11 detail how you came to that conclusion?
12 A. It's just been my experience in the 17 years
13 that I've been working on stormwater projects, I think as
14 we've discussed today, the residential program that MSD
15 has put out through Project Clear that you all have done a
16 significant amount of effort and outreach and : think done
17 a good job of communicating tc the community.
18 I'm not as familiar with the residential side
19 as I am the commercial side, but I think that program
20 from the communication outreach perspective, has been
21 successful, although it may not have inspired as much
22 participation as any of us would have liked. Cn the
23 commercial side it just comes down to dollars and cents.
24 Developers aren't really interested in having altruistic
25 motives as a part of the project, it really is a business
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1 decision for them.
2 Some developers gain green certifications or
3 LEED certifications which benefit them in the end.
4 However, from my experience, is that developers, even if
9 there is some incentive, are not going to pay for green
6 infrastructure unless that cost is fully taken care of.
Q. So with the district proposed incentive and
credit program, do you feel that it -- that would provide
9 a nominal benefit to homeowners without compromising the
10 CIRP the way we have it proposed now?
11 A. I believe that's what I testified to, yes.
12 MS. MYERS: Okay. Thank you. I don't have
13 anything else.
14 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Myers. Mr.
15 Neuschafer.
16 QUESTIONS BY MR. NEUSCHAFER:
17 Q. Good afternoon. I would like to first turn to
18 Page 5 of your testimony, which is Question 10. You
19 conclude that the district's cost estimates were completed
20 in accordance with common practice for this phase of the
21 program; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What do you mean by this phase of the program?
24 A. Well, assuming the program moves forward, this
25 is a conceptual level cost estimate and it's appropriate
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1 for the
2
3 talking about on a project -by -project basis or for a
4 program
6
7 9, you talk about
8 this proposal and
concept level.
Q•
When you say with the common practice, are you
that involves 500 or more projects?
A. Both.
° different studies
10 date, if I'm reading this correctly, anywhere from 1981 to
2010; is that correct?
Q. To back up here just a page, Page 4, Question
the support that MSD has generated for
you go through a long paragraph here of
or plans that were prepared and they
12 A.
13 Q.
14 the 483 or
15 A.
16 Q.
17
Yes.
And this is the engineering work that supports
so projects that are currently being proposed?
Yes.
Is any of this outdated?
A. T think it's been updated over time. The
18 problems and solutions 1 think are still relevant. The
10
costing has needed to be updated. T. believe that is what
20 has happened in the course of this rate setting.
21
22 and solutions are still accurate, given it appears that
23 the newest overall review is at least eight years old?
24
25 has used their complaint system to justify that.
Q•
And on what do you conclude that the problems
A. These problems have not been addressed and MSC
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1 Q. On what do you base your conclusion that these
2 problems have not been addressed?
3 A. There hasn't been funding available, so the
4 district has taken no action on the problems that have
5 been identified.
6 Q. Could a third party have taken action with
7 respect to any of these problems?
8 A. It's unlikely in St. Louis.
9 Q. You don't know that for sure?
10 A. I do not know that for sure.
11 Q. Could a problem have gone away because of new
12 construction, for example?
13 A. Of course, and I believe that the district has
14 said that this is a flexible program and if problems had
15 gone away, that they would evaluate those and be able to
16 move other priorities forward.
17 Q. Earlier this morning Commissioner Schoedel
18 asked you a question about the costs of the program and I
19
believe your conclusion was if we don't do this now, the
20 cost will increase?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you talking about the costs for these
23 individual projects would increase if we don't -- if we
24 don't authorize this rate now?
25 A. Yes.
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Q, That's just these particular stormwater
2 projects?
3 A. All civil -- all civil engineering projects,
4 the cost increases over time if you don't Perform them in
5 the date that they're assigned to.
6 Q. Are these -- the facts that these projects
7 haven't been addressed, are those -- is that impacting
8 wastewater rates or the ability of MSD to provide
9 wastewater services?
10 A. I don't believe so, no.
11 Q. I know you had some long discussions with
12 Commissioners Goss and Palans about the what we'll call
13 the cost -benefit analysis. The 483 projects identified by
14 MSD that have been prioritized, are those all of the
15 projects about which MSD has received calls or identified?
16 A. That's what the district has stated.
17 Q. So the district has not said we've received or
18 identified 600 projects, but we think these 120 or so just
19 don't need to be done?
20 A. That's my understanding of what the district
21 has stated.
22 Q. So 483 projects are everything that's been
23 identified even if it's extremely low priority?
24 A. Well, I guess I should restate. I believe
25 that the studies in the 53 binders look at all of the
i
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1 projects. I'm sure that the district has reviewed
2 projects that have not been found to be valid.
3
4 case?
5 A. I do not know that to be the case.
Q•
Page 137
Is that your -- do you know that to be the
6 Q. Assuming this rate is recommended and voters
7 approve the rate, is it your understanding that MSD will
8 put projects out to bid for local contractors and
9 engineering or design firms?
10 A. That is my understanding.
11 Q. Would Lion CSG bid on any of those projects?
12 A. No. We would not bid on construction. It is
13 unlikely that we would bid on stormwater. We have made
14 that a policy of our firm at this time.
15 Q. Okay. Is Lion CSG currently doing any
16 projects for MSD?
17 A. We are, and after we complete those projects,
18 it has been communicated to the district that we will no
19 longer be working on stormwater design projects for the
20 district.
21 Q. Will you continue working on wastewater design
22 projects?
23
A. Yes.
24 Q. How long has Lion CSG been doing work for MSD
25 on wastewater projects?
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A. We've been in business seven years. We've
2 been working for the district for six.
3 Q. Do you have any idea of the total amount of
4 fees that have been generated over those six years?
A. I do not.
6 Q. Were you or Lion involved in any of the
7 engineering support or cost estimates for any of the 483
8 or so projects that have been identified to date?
9 A. I don't believe so. My understanding is that
IC the projects that we were involved with were completed
11 under the OMCI, but I can't be sure of chat.
12 Q. And refresh our recollection as to the OMCI.
A. That's the existing stormwater funding that is
14 provided.
15 MR. NEUSCHAFER: Okay. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN TCENJES: Thank you, Mr. Neuschafer_
17 Ms. Stump, do you have questions for the witness?
18 MS. STUMP: I think I would like to ask her
19 one ouestion. I'll change seats.
20 QUESTIONS BY MS. STUMP:
21 Q. Nicole, Mr. Neuschafer just asked you some
22 questions about Lion's work with the district. Does the
23 fact that Lion did work for the district as in wastewater,
24 does that influence any of your decisions?
25 A. Absolutely not.
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1 Or your opinions that you've made in your
2 report?
3 A. No.
4 MS. STUMP: Okay. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Ms. Stump. Rate
6 Commissioners? Mr. Palans.
7 QUESTIONS BY MR. PALANS:
8 Q. Very short question. Just going back to
9 Question 12 of your testimony, your first sentence, "The
10 district's incentive and credit programs provide some
11 nominal benefit to property owners to provide BMPs without
12 compromising the CIRP." My question to you is why even
13 provide a nominal benefit to property owners? What good
14 does that do?
Page 139
Q.
15 A. I think when you look at an overall stormwater
16 basin, you are gaining some reductions in downstream
17 stormwater by providing upstream BMP. It's very difficult
18 to insure those are being placed in the right place at the
19 right size to get the reductions that we need to solve
20 these particular projects, but I think it is overall a
21 benefit to any stormwater program to have BMPs.
22 Q. So it's certainly not a material benefit,
23 correct?
24 A. It depends, but to these particular projects,
25 I do not believe so.
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Q. And it's, in your words, a nominal benefit,
2 correct?
3 A. Yes,
4 Q. So what value is there in providing a nominal
benefit? Wouldn't it be better to provide a material
6 benefit to induce people?
7 A. As far -- are you talking about as far as the
8 incentive Program?
9 Q. Yes.
onlyway to provide a
10 A. think the full
11 material benefit would be to have the credit equal the
12 cost of the BMP, and I think that takes away from the
13 overall program.
14 Q. Ms. Young, the -- I think we're all here
15 because we're trying to solve the problem. It's a big
16 problem, flooding and erosion within this district, and
it's a problem that's only going to get larger over time-
18 That's been the testimony consistent throughout; would you
19 agree with that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it's based upon today a conceptual
22 assessment of the scope and size of the problem, correct?
23 A. ves.
24 Q. And it's also based, in fact, upon projects
25 that have been ranked in various categories according to
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1 erosion and flooding, correct?
2
3
A. Yes.
Q•
And an erosion project that is identified
Page 141
4 today isn't going to be solved unless it's fixed, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6
Q.
And it's only going to get worse unless it's
7 fixed, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So if there's a rain storm of significant
10 proportion next week, next month, next year, five years
from now, it's only going to make these projects even
12 worse, correct?
13 A. That's likely, yes.
14 Q. And if so, we will likely have more complaints
15 that will be addressed to the district to solve problems,
16 correct?
17 A. The erosion problems that are happening don't
18 all come from the same complaints.
19 Q. And we have a system, by your own
20 characterization and review, that is fair, the ranking
21 system, the prioritization system; is that right?
22 A. I believe it's -
23
Q.
It's defensible, it's objective? You're
24 nodding your head yes.
25
A. Yes.
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1 Q. You need to answer. Yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you're still of an opinion that if third
4 party funds are contributed to fix the problem such that
5 the district's costs are reduced but the project is
6 solved, remediated, that's a good thing, is it not?
A. Yes, 't is.
8 COMMISSIONER PALANS: Thank you. I have no
9 further questions.
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you, Mr, Palans. Any
11 ether questions from any of the Commissioners at this time
12 for Ms. Young?
13 QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN TOENJES:
14 Q. I have one question, a couple questions. The
15 binders that you reviewed, 56 binders, are those available
16 for review by any -- are those public record?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So MIEC or any of the Rate Commissioners could
19 come and review those?
20 A. The district has offered that in their
21 testimony, yes.
22 MS. MYMRS: They were not listed as exhibits,
23 'n our testimony, Rich's testimony, I believe -- in
24 Rich's testimony the offer was made for anybody to come
25 review them.
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Page 143
1 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: So those are available for
2 public review?
3 MS. MYERS: Yes.
4 Q. (By Chairman Toenjes) Thank you. Have all of
5 the -- all these projects have -- I know you said you went
6 through the tap 100. Have all the projects been put in
7 this ranking system?
8 A. I want to separate the 100 projects I went
9 through. That was just to look at the categories that
10 they fell into on the spreadsheet, so I just pulled up the
11 spreadsheet and looked at the top 100 projects that were
12 listed on the spreadsheet.
13
14
Q•
Right.
A. Separate from looking at the binders that were
15 made available. But yes, all of the projects in those
16 binders had gone through the ranking system.
17 Q. Thank you. And I guess finally, and this is
18 not necessarily a question for you, but more of a request
19 of Ms. Stump and the district, that I think some
20 clarification, certainly some clarification of all the
21 elements of the ranking system and the rating system, the
22 fact that we had as many questions as we did about that,
23 would be very, very helpful, I think informative.
24 And I think secondly, this whole discussion
25 about the impact that private funds or donations or
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Page 144
i in -kind services would have on that ranking system or
2 could have on that ranking system should be clarified, you
3 know, the whole discussions about, you know, the MODOT
4 versus the private contribution. I guess you could look
5 at that from both sides of the coin; that in fact what
6 MODOT is doing is a contribution, but it's not necessarily
7 changing the cost of the -- overall cost of the project,
8 you're just moving that cost to some other entity. So I
think some clarification of that particular issue by the
district would really be important to have that, whether
11 it's in -kind or a physical cost or cost sharing by another
12 agency, whatever impact, if any, that has on the rating
13 and ranking of projects really would be helpful.
14 COMMISSIONER GOSS: My understanding, Mr.
Chairman, from the testimony, and I do think we should get
16 clarification on this, was that if MODOT was providing
17 flagging services or traffic control, that they were
18 charging the district for and so it was part of the
19 district's cost. That's the testimony that she gave. I
2C don't know if that's correct or not, but -- so I do agree
21 that we need to clarify it.
22 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: I just want it clarified.
23 That whole issue seems a little gray at this point.
24 MR. HOELSCHER: Mr. Chairman, we will provide
25 an answer to that either as part of discovery request or
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25
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Page 145
1 surrebuttal, depending on which is appropriate, and if
2 we're required to put -- just so while I'm here, we're
3 required to put traffic control up on state highways as
4 part of our project and MSD pays the cost and our MSD
5 contractor puts the traffic control up, and if MODOT has
6 to do anything, they bill us for the cost of that, part of
7 the project cost. That would be the fact in any
8 municipality or any government entity.
9 MS. STUMP: Mr. Chairman?
10 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Yes, Ms. Stump.
MS. STUMP: So I am going to make a discovery
12 request on Monday to the district and we will address
13 these issues. If there's anything else that the
14 commissioners feel is still outstanding, we will ask for
15 that and the district has committed to getting the
16 response in prior to the next technical conference so you
17 will be able to ask the questions about it also.
18 CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you very much. I
19 appreciate that. I think the whole issue of this
20 prioritization, and being somewhat a construction guy
21 myself, I understand this point system and how having
22 something upstream or downstream or above or below or
23 sequencing may have the impact of having lower priority
projects done in advance to get to higher priority
projects. I don't know that for fact, but I would just
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1 like to have a super amount of clarification on that
2 particular issue.
3 Thank you, Ms. Youra. Are there any other
4 matters before the are Commission before we adjourn
today? All right. I think, according to cur revised
6 schedule, the Rate Commission is now adjourned until June
7 7th at 9:00 A.M.
8 MS. STUMP: Correct,
9
10 " :49 P.M.
12
13
14
16
,7
8
19
20
21
22
23
24
2�
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CHAIRMAN TOENJES: Thank you. Adjourning at
i
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
Page 147
2
3 I, BETH 0. ZINK, a Registered Professional
4 Reporter, Missouri Certified Court Reporter, Illinois
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and
6 for the State of Illinois, do hereby certify that the
7 foregoing proceeding was taken by me to the best of my
8 ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
9 direction; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor
10 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this
11 proceeding was held, and further, that I am not a relative
12 or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the
13 parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested
14 in the outcome of the action.
15
16
17
18 Beth O. Zink, RPR, CCR, CSR
19 MOCCR#799; ILCSR#084-004477
20
21
22 My commission expires August 3rd, 2018.
24
25
23
i
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A
A-161:24
A-2 62:14 66:10
A-3 63:4
A.M 6:2 61:14
146:7
ability 7:25 8:5
22:10 40:12
62:3,8 68:14
91:18 92:18
136:8 147:8
able 22:23 24:4
36:24 53:4,5
65:22 68:23
81:6 96:17
99:5 113:20
115:19 117:4
120:4 127:13
128:22135:15
145:17
Absolutely
138:25
abstract 50:4
abundance
84:10
accept 120:11
accepted 63:11
access 12:25
accompanied
7:22
accomplish
45:23
accomplishing
31:14
account 17:18
accounted
130:9
accounts 117:10
accurate 44:11
96:25 98:24
106:21110:10
130:22 134:22
achieve 24:4
94:14
achieves 18:25
achieving
131:19
acquiring 98:16
acquisition
17:12
act 52:4 53:6
action 135:4,6
147:10,14
activities 33:21
actual 29:23
37:24 42:23
53:14 69:17
82:5
add 14:18 19:24
21:15 47:22
added 60:22
82:15
addition 111:23
additional 8:20
11:17,18 19:24
21:11 34:2
40:17 43:11
46:5,10 52:3
80:3,20 82:4
90:6,22 91:14
92:3,5 95:8
95:20 113:9
123:25
Additionally
131:20
additions
83:20
address 23:9
42:6 52:25
53:4,7 62:6
76:9 77:19
90:20 145:12
addressed
53:2 81:11,13
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127:12 134:24
135:2 136:7
141:15
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15:1 21:2 22:4 19:14 21:23 74:3
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24:20 31:15,17 115:24 amplify 47:20
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146:6 allocated 59:18 107:4 136:13
Adjourning allocates 86:24 andlor 32:13
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101:22 102:3 10 3:2, 3 annualized
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affordability 6:10 anticipate 43:8
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117I2018
134:22 60:8,14,15,15
applicable 8:5 60:19 62:17
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8:14,16 63:3,9,17,18
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99:19 100:17 17:4 23:25
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20:20 27:18 123:20128:18
27:20 48:3,4 140:22
48:23 50:14 asset 49:21
54:16 57:10 56:14 68:10
79:18
assets 7:16
39:24 78:18
79:15
assigned 89:12
93:19 98:25
104:2 136:5
assigning 121:3
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30:24 31:1
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69:17 117:19
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91:25 106:16
107:6 108:11
128:4
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52:13 59:1
79:8 133:24
137:6
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ASTM 121:17
attempt 11:11
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attest 84:11
attitudes 83:10
attorney 4:4,4
4:9 147:12
August 8:23
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authority 40:2
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automatically
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46:12 48:12
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61:6 80:21
84:7 87:24
90:1 97:22
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135:3 142:15
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139:8
background
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125:4
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Baer 4:5 9:16
11:4
balance 18:7,9
18:16 21:15
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balancing 18:10
52:4 53:6
bank 77:1
Bar 7:7
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96:1
base 135:1
based 15:4
16:25 17:7
18:23 21:14,18
22:15,19 24:1
24:8,9,12
25:14 28:16
29:24 31:16
32:3 37:23
42:17 43:21
44:18 45:2,6,8
45:22 49:1,19
50:22 51:3
53:14 54:16
60:17 61:6
63:9 64:9,11
64:20,22
69:9,25 70:17
71:6 72:14
73:14 75:21
84:24 87:3,23
92:5,21,25
93:9,10 97:19
98:23 9915
100:6,20
101:23106:4
108:3,16
109:23 110:20
110:22112:2
113:23 115:15
115:20 116:5
119:10 128:7
128:10,10,15
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basements
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basically 68:18
85:15
basin 127:9,12
127:13,17
139:16
basing 69:25
basins 126:13
126:24
basis 48:11
55:22 61:5
68:12 69:11
72:2 108:17
115:11134:3
www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117/2018
bear 70:6 81:24 133:11 134:19
118:3 135:13,19
bears 118:6 136:10,24
Beckley 9:3 138:9 139:25
Beckmann 5:10 141:22 142:23
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82:20 95:2 94:9 101:5
101:23 128:23 133:3
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billable 60:14
69:24
billing 69:24
billion 20:12,17
20:24 21:7,9
22:11
bills 18:2019:4
binders 80:20
80:20,25 81:1
86:4,7,8
97:22 114:25
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142:15 143:14
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board 6:15 7:13
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110:1
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33:25 75:14
75:15 77:14
122:6
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brought 29:4
Bryan 4:9
bucketing
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buckets 107:18
114:23
bucks 127:15
budget 16:9
56:19 59:14,18
101:19 108:24
109:23 110:2,3
build 33:20
131:16,21
Builders 7:7
buildings 125:2
built 28:17
82:17
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115:7
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26:8 63:6
70:10
business 18:7
18:18 25:25
29:10 132:25
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businesses
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buy 53:19 76:19
99:10
buying 76:22
99:10 119:25
buyout 89:8
buyouts 84:22
89:5 131:17
www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
C
calculate 72:15
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50:22
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97:25
calculations
98:13
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caller 107:3
calls 84:12
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candidate 33:3
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capacity 115:17
capital 13:18
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23:5,9 24:18
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37:19 40:4
42:6,6,11,12
43:24 44:25
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117:25 125:1,2
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108:8 112:1
115:10 116:22
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cash 18:20 64:2
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categories
103:4 110:2,23
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categorized
109:23 110:20
category 82:7
82:10 100:10
102:23106:6
109:24111:23
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cause 102:20
118:23
Cave 4:9
cave-in 112:10
CCR 1:19 147:18
CDM 125:5,10
125:13 129:23
cent 34:20,20
54:9,9
center 84:11
cents 132:23
certain 19:12 123:2 127:21
21:25 27:20 127:23 129:12
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CERTIFICATE 50:25 83:10
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certification 93:9 94:20
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certifications changed 102:12
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certify 147:6 60:16,18 94:4
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circumstances
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98:19 101:18
104:6 109:22
124:8 131:17
133:10 139:12
cistern 50:17
cities 65:3
city 7:7,9 76:25
76:25 89:16
124:18,19
civil 90:3,23
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119:22 131:13
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clarification
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144:9,16 146:1
clarified 144:2
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clarify 38:21
39:4 144:21
Clark 112:9
classes 8:8
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48:6 57:9,22
58:7 61:2 84:7
95:17 116:6
132:15
clearer 83:19
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client 18:5
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Club 7:9
clubhouse
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coefficient
64:22,24
72:15
coin 144:5
collect 34:16
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
www.alaris.us Phone: 1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117/2018
34:20 95:25 8:9,11,17,20 136:12 139:6 141:14,18 conclusion 15:5
131:15 8:23 9:1,4,7,12 142:11,18 complete 28:7 15:6 62:5,18
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6:19 7:1,13,21 95:14 130:14 90:6,9 107:3 134:21 57:1 84:21
www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/1712018
91:5 117:18 19:21 18:6 17:22 19:8,10 17:12,19,19
120:1,10122:7 continue 21:15 correct 13:13,19 19:24 20:9,13 19:6,12 23:16
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52:7 57:17 137:21 19:13 20:13,15 33:4 35:5,7,18 36:25 40:22
considered continued 3:1 21:9 24:10,13 37:9,24 43:6 42:22 43:24
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constraints contributed 85:16,21,22 93:24 94:3,3 98:7,25 99:1
39:11 25:8 26:20 86:21 87:14,15 97:25 98:4,4 99:15 116:23
constructed 92:14 94:1 87:16 88:1,15 98:12,16,17,21 117:7,11,17,18
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117/2018
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1
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 517/2018
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ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
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i
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/1712018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5117/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
26:20 34:3 122:8 125:11,13 129:15 130:13
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone:1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
134:19
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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314)259-2050
4:11
314)621-2939
4:6
314)644-2191
1:21
314)768-6209
4:16
32 2:6
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www.alaris.us
ALARM LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376
Fax: 314.644.1334
TECHNICAL CONFERENCE 5/17/2018
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www.alaris.us
ALARIS LITIGATION SERVICES
Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334
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