HomeMy Public PortalAbout2011_tcmin0927Council Members Absent: None.
7. PRESENTATIONS
a. None.
COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Council Chambers, 25 West Market Street, 7:30 p.m. Mayor Umstattd presiding.
Council Members Present: David Butler, Thomas Dunn, Katie Sheldon Hammler,
Fernando "Marty" Martinez, Kenneth "Ken" Reid, Kevin D. Wright, and Mayor
Umstattd.
Staff Present: Town Manager John Wells, Town Attorney Jeanette Irby, Deputy Town
Manager Kaj Dentler, Director of Planning and Zoning Susan Berry Hill, Deputy
Director of Planning and Zoning Brian Boucher, Preservation Planner Annie
McDonald, Senior Project Manager Lee Philips, Economic Development Manager
Marantha Edwards, and Clerk of Council Lee Ann Green
AGENDA ITEMS
1. CALL TO ORDER
2. INVOCATION: Council Member Dunn
3. SALUTE TO THE FLAG: Vice Mayor Wright
4. ROLL CALL: Showing all members present.
5. MINUTES
a. Work Session Minutes of September 12, 2011
On a motion by Vice Mayor Wright, seconded by Council Member
Butler, the minutes of the work session of September 12, 2011 were approved 5 -0-
2 (Martinez /Dunn abstaining)
b. Regular Session Minutes of September 13, 2011
On a motion by Council Member Butler, seconded by Vice Mayor
Wright, the minutes of the September 13 regular session were approved 5 -0 -2
(Martinez /Dunn abstaining).
6. ADOPTING THE MEETING AGENDA
On a motion by Vice Mayor Wright, seconded by Council Member Martinez, the
meeting agenda was approved as presented by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor Umstattd
Nay: None
Vote: 7 -0
8. PETITIONERS
The petitioner's section was opened at 7:35 p.m.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Arthur Busher, 503 Country Club Drive, SW, stated a petition was passed
around the Country Club Drive Subdivision and it has 276 residents who have signed it.
He stated they are opposed to the proposed Linden Hill Access Road because of safety
of the neighborhood, negative impact on property values, increased traffic congestion,
reduction of safe off-street parking, massive cost to taxpayers to resolve an
inconvenience for just 36 homes in Linden Hill. He questioned where the win -win
solution is for Country Club. He stated this is a loss -loss for Country Club.
Phil Marshall, 614 Marshall Drive, NE, stated it is lunacy that Catoctin Circle is
not opened yet since it is done. He stated the Catoctin Circle owners were paid for their
sidewalks but they do not own the street. He stated this is a difficult decision, but the
right thing to do is not always the easiest thing to do, but it is the right thing to do. He
stated the taxpayers paid for the street and it is an unbelievable inconvenience for
Marshall and Prince and the other street that is open. He stated his children are at risk,
the children are at risk on North Street and everybody but those three streets. He stated
it is selfishness that they do not want the street open.
Gretchen Fish, 216 Catoctin Circle, NE, stated she is opposed to taking the
barrier down. She stated this is a safety issue and a lot of the residents who want the
barricade taken down think the street is done but it is not actually done. She stated it
was communicated to them at the start of the project that the barricade would remain up
until the completion of the entire project including all of the streets, Prince Street, Queen
Street, Blue Ridge Avenue and Catoctin Circle. She stated just because Catoctin Circle
was the first one to be completed, does not mean that they should be punished with the
volume of traffic being introduced into a construction zone. She stated all the safety
measures are not in place. She stated it is inappropriate that convenience should trump
safety. She asked that Council stay true to the agreement and keep the barricade up until
all of the streets are safe.
Wendy Overton, 217 Catoctin Circle, NE, stated she feels passionately about her
neighbors. She stated they accept that the barricade will come down and they know
what the volume of traffic will be. She stated the rest of the neighborhood is not
complete and there will still be construction going on. She stated she would appreciate it
if everyone would relax. She stated children will have to cross Catoctin to get to the bus
stop. She stated she is hearing that the safety of the neighbors on Blue Ridge is not
convenient. She invited Council to walk the neighborhood. She stated people do not
understand that they do not have their sidewalks and the traffic will slow down the
project.
Marla DeCriscio, 2 Country Club Drive, SW, asked Council for the reason why
they would approve the access road. She questioned who it would benefit. She
questioned how the road would benefit all the residents of the town. She questioned
how long the road will be utilized after the residents realize that the u -turn will be
quicker than a left turn. She asked Council to take the time to make a u -turn out of
Country Club and to make a left turn at the traffic light. Further, she stated if someone
else purchases 1 Country Club Drive, how can the Council use eminent domain and
take away the beautiful yard.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Cindy Boyce, 127 Maryanne Avenue, SW, thanked Council for taking the time
to listen to the Country Club concerns. She asked Council to reconsider the currently
proposed solution. She stated it would be taking an inconvenience for 36 residents of
the Town of Leesburg and creating a host of problems for over 300 residences in
Country Club in terms of safety, property values, and impact on the entrance to the
neighborhood. She stated that expending this kind of money to solve an inconvenience
for 36 residents is not a fiscally responsible decision.
Frederick Lillis, MD, 401 Country Club Drive, SW, stated his solution would be
a traffic light at Linden Hill that would be in sync and act in concert with the one at
Country Club so the two lights would act as one. He stated both neighborhoods would
have direct access and would be inexpensive.
Council Member Hammler: Is it possible to make the FAQ available to all the
residents who may not have attended the session because we outlined all the options that
we have reviewed.
Mayor: That would be good. John, we have names and addresses. Just make
sure they all get that.
Steven Loftus, 1103 Rollins Place, SW, agreed with Dr. Lillis' suggestion as it is
no worse than the solution that the town engineers and VDOT bought at the Outlet
mall, which is a disaster. He stated just because this is a project that is going to be in the
million dollar range does not make it right. He stated the neighborhood does not want
to be bought off with other improvements. He stated the town is in a tight fiscal
situation and buying people off is not the way to go. He stated this motion tonight is in
his mind a little misleading as it does not kill the project. He stated he would rather
have the Council address a motion that would actually kill the project. He stated the
process has been very flawed as the number of Country Club residents who were notified
of this situation has been limited so to say this is a collaborative effort, is misleading.
Raymond Jones, 33 Linden Hill Way, SW, stated they do not want to make this
neighborhood versus neighborhood and he totally disagrees with the previous speaker
about killing the access lane. He stated the town engineers approved the plan for the
access lane and it is something that has been looked at as safe. He stated Linden Hill
residents will defer to people at the stop sign and make sure they do not pull out in front
of anyone. He stated the additional left turn lane will make a big difference as far as
traffic congestion goes. Further, there are very few cars coming out of Linden Hill at any
time of day. He stated there is precedence for spending a lot of money on a few homes,
particularly with regards to drainage projects. He stated they have no remedy out and
the access lane is not their first preference, but is the best one that is available right now.
He stated the Country Club neighborhood could be more impacted by real estate values
in Linden Hill going down than the minor addition of an access lane as comps are not
restricted by street or neighborhood. He stated turning right at the light will be longer
than a light at Country Club. He stated the U turn light will be very short and if the
traffic backs up, they will be at a significant disadvantage. He stated the Linden Hill
neighborhood is committed to making the access road very attractive.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Jeanne Gohn, stated she would like to remind everyone that the engineer said it
would actually be safer for the neighborhood, particularly the residents of Prince Street,
if Catoctin was opened. She also suggested moving the double barriers to the side streets
so that only Catoctin is accessible and Blue Ridge is closed off and no one can go where
there are no sidewalks. She stated she is not naive enough to think that the traffic counts
will not increase when the access is available, but that doesn't make a difference to her
because she has seen the traffic. She stated Marshall is so busy, her children were not
allowed to play in the front yard because lots of other streets are taking the traffic for
people on Catoctin.
Rufus Campbell, 219 Catoctin Circle, NE, stated in 1995 when the town council
and the mayor made an agreement, which he considers a contract, that all streets in
Lowenbach would receive side walks, storm drains, curbs and gutters. He stated there
are no sidewalks anywhere in the subdivision. He stated the subdivision was built in
1912 and some neighbors have been there since the 40s. He stated this same argument
has been going on for 16 years. He stated the Watch for Children sign is 12 feet up the
telephone pole. He asked Council to do the right thing by leaving the barricade up until
the project is finished. He offered to walk Council members through the neighborhood.
Brian Caney, 412 Blue Ridge Avenue, stated the sidewalk ends halfway down his
property and his parking has been taken away. He stated living on the corner of
Catoctin and Blue Ridge makes him very self centered in wanting the barricade to stay
up as he has a two- year -old child and it's a safety issue. He stated opening Catoctin
Circle would probably be good for everyone other than those that live on Catoctin. He
stated there are a lot of things that he would like Council to consider other than the
numbers of people who want the barricade open.
Roland Buskirk, 216 Mayfair Drive, NE, stated Mayfair is now the main avenue
with the exception of Plaza that everyone uses to get to Battlefield. He stated the
agreement can be amended. He invited Council to come to Mayfair when the
elementary school lets out to see the children walking in the street. He stated he has to
go out and tell cars to slow down because they are cutting from Battlefield or up North
Street to cut down Marshall. He requested the barricades be removed or speed bumps
installed on Mayfair.
Leslie Katz, 24 Linden Hill Way, SW, stated this is she and her husband's first
home. She stated they were under the impression that this access road was something
that the Council had committed to doing. She asked Council to act with integrity and
follow through with their commitment. She stated just because Country Club has more
residents, it does not mean that they are right. She stated her husband took the day off
on Thursday and sat in front of 1 Country Club Drive to count the number of cars. She
recapped that between 6:19 a.m. and 9 a.m. the greatest number of vehicles to wait at
the light at any one time was eight and that included larger vehicles such as service
trucks and school buses. She stated the duration of the light measured by the stopwatch
on her husband's phone fluctuated from as little as four seconds for a small number of
vehicles to as long as 25 seconds when more were present. She stated during the entire
rush hour commute, only 14 cars turned right.
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
Phil Marshall, stated he did not say everything that was on his mind earlier, and
he does not have the authority of extended residency but there is no reason that one
person's child should be more safe than another person's child. He stated it is no less
safe on Catoctin now that it is finished than it is on Marshall. He stated they attempted
to get stop signs, but were told no. He stated he recommends against speed bumps
because you will get a hump. He stated he was the defacto crossing guard every school
day for four years to get people to slow down.
Rufus Campbell asked whether Mr. Marshall has sidewalks and curbs and
gutters. He stated the reason the agreement was made was that Lowenbach does not
have the improvements the rest of the area has.
The petitioner's section was closed at 8:20 p.m.
9. APPROVAL OF THE CONSENT AGENDA
On a motion by Council Member Martinez, seconded by Vice Mayor Wright, the
following items were moved for approval as part of the Consent Agenda:
a. Making Appointments to the Mason Enterprise Center Board of Advisors
RESOLUTION 2011 -116
To Appoint Mr. Steve Robin and Mr. Ara Bagdasarian to the Mason
Enterprise Center Leesburg Board of Advisors
b. Airport Land Acquisition for the Runway 17 North Runway Protection
Zone
RESOLUTION 2011 -117
Authorizing a Settlement Agreement for the Purchase of Land for the
Runway 17 North Runway Protection Zone (RPZ); Adding a Project for
the FY 2012 -2017 CIP for the Land Acquisition; and Appropriating
$250,000 for the Project in FY 2012
c. Initiating Amendments to the Subdivision and Land Development
Regulations
RESOLUTION 2011 -118
Initiating Amendments to Section 3 of the Leesburg Subdivision and Land
Development Regulations to Make Changes Necessary to Make Minor
Changes to the Type of Land Development Application Required for
Various Types of "Residential" Applications to Make the Fee and Plan
Type More Commensurate with the Actual Submission Requirements
The Consent Agenda was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor
Umstattd
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Nay: None
Vote: 7 -0
10. PUBLIC HEARINGS
a. Board of Architectural Review Appeal TLHP 2011 -0034 Star Buick
The public hearing was opened at 8:23 p.m.
Mayor Umstattd read the Appeal Process.
Annie McDonald: In the interest of time, I will keep this very brief. I will
simply run through the material that the BAR had as a supplement to what was
in your packet that you received last week to hopefully perhaps bring some clarity
to that information. The applicant filed the application in early June of this year.
It was first heard at public hearing on June 20. At that time, the BAR considered
the circumstances of the property. These are aerial shots showing the situation of
the building and a few ground level photos that show it currently. This is a close
up of the section that projects closest to East Market Street and this is the area
that projects to the east to the parking lot. This is the site plan that was submitted
with the application that shows the area of the addition here as you will have
noted from the application, it was an addition and alterations. The applicant
submitted the elevations. These are fairly corporate standard. The BAR
considered the design and the materials and ultimately deferred the application.
What was the primary issue was the material proposed for this area, which in the
staff report is being referred to as the fascia and then the monumental entrance
portal. So, those are the two areas were the material was proposed to be used
that was the issue and thus the cause for the appeal. A small amount of that
material will exist per the plans on the west elevation of the building. The BAR
ultimately deferred this case for restudy requesting that the applicant submit a few
alternate material samples. I have samples here that I can pass around should the
Council want them. What was first submitted were metallic and high gloss
samples and the BAR asked for two possible alternates, one being a matte sample
of the black metal and the other being a simulated stucco, which is a material that
is frequently approved in the H -2 corridor district. This would be, if it were
installed, painted black and white to match the same color scheme, so the overall
design would not change. It would simply be a change in the material. The
applicant submitted revised project plans for the BAR public hearing on July 18.
What you see here above is the original design below a slightly modified design
that addressed something that was discussed at the earlier public hearing that is
not at issue now, but you might note that they look very similar but there were
some changes to the amount of brick used below the fascia. The applicant
submitted plans that reflected EIFS as well as metal. After substantial discussion,
the board ultimately voted to approve the project with the modification that the
EIFS that had been submitted as an alternate material be used in lieu of the metal
panels and that would be on the three sides where the metal panels were
proposed to be located.
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The applicant, in the appeal has proposed one of two possible options, one
for use of metal on the entire area that was the subject of the change, which
would be both the fascia and the entrance portal, or in order to maintain GMs
corporate standard design, keeping the metal only on the entrance portal, that is
as I understand it, a premanufactured feature that is brought in and installed on a
new foundation that is built on site. The fascia is more site constructed feature
and thus it is approached a little differently, but the applicant can address that in
more detail, should you wish. One of the main things that factored into the
BAR's decision was precedent in a similar case. When the BAR considered the
Suzuki dealership design in 2004 -2005, that design also incorporated the metal
panels that are proposed in this case, only in the case of Suzuki, they were red.
In order to comply with the H -2 corridor design guidelines, the BAR asked that
material be modified to a red brick to be consistent with traditional design in
Leesburg, as is generally recommended in the guidelines. They complied and
this was the result. So, in order to maintain consistency with past decisions and a
consistent approach with regard to the design guidelines in interpreting
traditional materials, that was one of the main foundations for the BARs
decision. As illustrated in the facts that were established at the time the decision
was made on July 18. So, the BAR found that the building was a nonhistoric
structure dating to the fourth quarter of the 20 century, the proposed alterations
and addition are generally consistent with the guidelines for siting relationship to
roadway, massing, roof form, size, scale, facade elements and color and because
ACM panels proposed for the exterior are not based in the building traditions of
Leesburg, the proposed design does not comply with the design guidelines for
materials, so the BAR approved the case with the modification that the ACM
panels would be replaced with stimulated stucco and details on the signage would
be submitted to staff for final review and approval. It's really that first condition
that is the subject of the appeal.
As was stated earlier, the Town Council may reverse the decision, affirm
wholly or partly, or modify any order, requirement or decision of the BAR and
make such requirement, decision or determination as the Council believes ought
to be made.
Mayor: In this type of appeal, Council members, are they allowed to ask
questions of staff at this time?
Irby: Yes, this would be the appropriate time.
Mayor: Let me see if any Council Members have any questions or
comments at this time. We are going to hear from the applicant.
Jonathan Penny: My name is Jonathan Penny, architect from Penny
Design Group representing the owner here. We did go through two BAR
meetings working with Annie on some of the other features, which is very
helpful. She has always been good to work with. These elements, the design
elements are corporate standards. They are no different from McDonald's arches
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
or any other major national retailer. So, for three reasons, we are appealing the
decision for the metal panels. One is the branding considerations to keep GM,
Chevrolet, all these dealerships, manufacturers, they want a consistency from
dealership to dealership so they can get their brand recognition out. By changing
the material of this, it is the opinion of GM and the opinion of the owner that will
greatly affect branding considerations. Number two is the long term durability of
the approved replacement product. Stucco is done, Drive -it, EIFS, whatever you
want to call it is done all over Leesburg. It is done all over the country. It is a
less durable product and the major fear we have is because of the branding
elements, the black and the white, we have done black EIFS before and you have
to paint it every two to three years because it fades in the sunlight. As you know,
as maintenance goes on buildings, that's often not done. So, we feel that after a
few years, I think this will become a maintenance issue and aesthetically not as
pleasing. The ACM panels have a UV coating on them, so it does not fade. So,
from a long term durability standpoint, I think it's going to be a lot better product
being used. Not to mention the fact that the building... we are putting an
addition on the side and the front... the front part that sits back from the
showroom it sits back over 100 feet from the street. In my opinion, I don't
think you will even see if it is an EIFS or a metal panel from 100 feet away, so we
think there is no difference in look. The third thing, and I'll have the owner talk
a little bit more about this is the potential for financial hardship. GM is really
forcing everyone's hand to get all dealerships and even ones that have done work
several years ago to get up to corporate standards. There is allocation of cars that
they get from the manufacturer and there is a potential that allocation could be
affected if you are not up to corporate standards. So for those three reasons and
we also did talk about the two compromises. We would like to see, and I know
that GM would like to see all ACM on the fascia as well as the branding element.
A fall back position for us would be just the branding element and everything else
would be the EIFS. The branding element is a bought structure that is very
expensive. They ship it in and I don't think there is one in the country that has
been done with EIFS. So that's another hurdle we would have to come across.
So for those reasons, we feel that we would like to 1) use all metal panels or 2)
use a hybrid of which only the branding element is the ACM panels and we can
see that using the matte black instead of a shiny black, as stipulated before. I'll let
Ray talk a little bit about that...
Ray Glembot: Good evening, Madam Mayor and members of Council. I
have a home here in Leesburg. I have two homes in Leesburg and I live at both
of them, 206 West Market Street and 326 East Market Street. It is... I do not
want to be here. I'll just say it like it is. I was hoping when the BAR shot down
the plans as far as the ACM and went to the EIFS, that would be the end of the
conversation. I present that to General Motors, everything would be hunky dory.
I really don't want to spend the $77,000 for their entry portal, but shortly after the
letter went out from the BAR, I had GM contact me. You are going to appeal.
So, here I am appealing. The hotspot that GM has, in my opinion, is the entry
portal. I think if we could get the entry portal to their design and do the EIFS for
the rest of it, all right, that would make them happy and hopefully the town
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
happy. I would just like to get this darned thing built. That's where I am. If you
have any questions, please yell.
Dunn: I thought you might have said you have two homes, one on
Linden Hill and one on Country Side. Didn't know why you didn't speak earlier.
Well, could you pull up the picture again of the other dealership, I think it was on
King Street? Is that where it was? I'm sorry, Market.
McDonald: 610 East Market Street.
Dunn: Looking at this, I have to hold back my laughter. This is
where... and I will say this, that had we had form based code, we would be
dealing with a whole nother issue here because the guidelines by which we would
be evaluating your property would be completely different, fully written for you
and you would know coming in exactly what you are dealing with. Now, you
are given an opportunity to build a building that has no historical significance
and even remotely being considered using historical fake design is almost
laughable. That is laughable. Unfortunately over the years, and there are people
here, I don't see the gentleman talked about promises Countryside and Country
Club, excuse me. The folks on Catoctin talking about going back years. For
years we have had the opportunity to have decent planning in this town and this
is the product that we put out. I can't see any reason for supporting the BAR's
decision on this. I know they have their rules and their guidelines, but to take a
clearly modern building try to make it say that we have to go by... and I
understand Dieter that you have got guidelines and you gotta go by them, but in
situations like this, it just makes absolutely no sense to say well we are going to
have you have historical looking stucco over your brand new looking building
that has not even an inkling of historical nature to it, which complete... which
defeats the whole purpose of why we have the BAR and the H -1 district anyway.
The idea is that the H -1 can create a gateway that brings you into our actual
historical district and yet the BAR is hampered by our own guidelines to create
situations like this. So, as far as I am concerned, you all put in what you want.
Unfortunately, that is what our guidelines are right now. If I had my way, we
would have had form based code four years ago and you would be building a
dealership that looks like my main street and I would be saying, you know, GM,
if you want Leesburg, you are going to take Leesburg the way we want it to look.
Unfortunately we don't have those guidelines right now so I say go ahead and
build your building with the materials you want and don't make... unfortunately,
it makes a mockery of our whole situation when we have stuff like this. Thank
you.
Reid: Well, I agree with Tom completely. This is an example of why the
H -2 corridor regulations really needed to be substantially changed and I was very
taken aback when I discovered in a discussion that we had about Form Based
Code, that the Council never gave direction to staff to redo the H -2 guidelines. I
really am... so I do support a lot of what you said. First, I want to disclose that I
had a brief conversation with Mr. Glembot, just walking along the street about
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
this situation. I also filled out a disclosure form last time around and I have been
advised by Council that I do not have to recuse myself even though I purchased a
car from you and have it serviced there and you have been supportive of my
campaigns and so forth. So, I just wanted to get that on the table.
If I understand you correctly, what you want us to do is sort of modify the
BAR decision to allow this kind of material on the portal and this, which is the
EIFS, is this the EIFS example? For the building. If you can get to the
microphone, we have to have that on the record, if you could stand up and just
explain.
Penny: Yes, sir. That is correct. So, the entry portal so this, the entry
portal... the eyebrow...the entry portal with the eyebrow here... just this, they
call it the eyebrow, it's not my architectural design...
Reid: I hear you.
Penny: and then the rest of the horizontal fascia would be EIFS.
Reid: And we can do that? We have the authority, Counselor, to do that?
Penny: I believe that's one of the options.
Reid: Is that one of the options, Annie or... to do that? Have this for the
eyebrow, as he calls it, and this for the building? Is that one of the options?
Okay, so that is one of the options that we can do, but Government Motors may
not like that or will they? Sorry, I call them Government Motors, sorry. Will
they approve that, or we don't know?
Penny: There is a strong indication from them that they will approve it.
The biggest objection that they had was their branding element. The fascia is
done all over the place. They care less about that. They prefer it, but...
Glembot: I think it would be a good compromise. I think General
Motor's hotspot is that entry portal. I have heard more grief over that than you
can ever imagine.
Reid: They want this because this is the new symbol. They want this
black material?
Glembot: No, I believe the columns going up on the side are silver in color
or silver metallic. This piece....
Reid: like this? And Annie, does this meet the guidelines or no? This
shiny material?
McDonald: Just a moment.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Glembot: This right here, is our hotspot. These columns right in here, as
I recall are silver. While the insert on the top, is that in the black? No, it's all
silver with the black letter for Buick and GMC and then there is a black trim
coming up on the sides, which I didn't even notice before. I think that would
satisfy GM. Can I speak for GM? No. I feel like a ping pong ball.
Reid: This is what happens when our tax dollars... your tax dollars at
work, folks. I didn't mean to disparage the company when I called it
Government Motors. And I also did not mean to disparage the BAR at all when
I echoed Mr. Dunn's concerns about what has happened with the H -2 because
actually this process... we have had situations in the past when appeals from the
H -2 have been very, very difficult. But, we have changed the standards and now
Council can modify this. It's not just whether the BAR acted capriciously or
arbitrarily and there was a 75 day limit, so I just want to say that I think that staff
and the BAR, and I think you would agree, Mr. Glembot, have handled this well.
Good. Thank you, sir. You are just dealing with the higher ups, that's where the
problem is. I think I might be prepared to support the compromise. Thank you.
Mayor: We will still be hearing from a representative of the BAR.
Wright: With that in mind, I will wait until I hear the whole story.
Dieter Meyer: Dieter Meyer, BAR chairman. Really not a whole lot.
The issue is what it is. Really, the design guidelines probably are maybe a tad
outdated, but they are what they are and it basically came down to an
interpretation by the BAR as to whether those metal panels were in compliance
with the guidelines as the guidelines were written. The guidelines do say avoid
using metal panels. That, I think was what drove the majority to their... that
interpretation. There was a lot of discussion. I think there was some... you will
see for yourself in the records there was some dissenting view, but the vast
majority interpreted the metal panels to not be in compliance with the guidelines.
It basically is up to you, because the new appeal standards substitute for the BAR
and it is up to you to interpret the design guidelines as to whether those metal
panels are in compliance or not. So, that's really the bottom line and I'll be
happy to answer any questions, if you have them.
Butler: Just a quick note. I forgot in the report, what was the vote from
the BAR?
Meyer: It was a unanimous vote and that was partially to accommodate
the applicant. We asked the applicant, you know, how would you like us to
proceed with this and the applicant basically said that they wanted to be able to
go back to GM with an approval with the condition that we put on it.
Butler: Were all seven members attending that night?
Meyer: Annie, do you have that.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
McDonald: Please excuse me. I am getting the two meetings mixed up.
The motion passed unanimously, 5 -0 -2 with Mr. Reimers and Mr. Koochagian
absent.
Butler: Okay, thank you.
Mayor: Is there any rebuttal from Star Buick to Mr. Meyer's presentation
on behalf of the BAR?
Glembot: None and thank you, Dieter.
Wright: Can you walk me through the finishes for, I guess, the
compromise that is being talked about. I guess the black... the main black band
is the stucco and then the entry feature is the metallic finishes?
Penny: Yeah. Essentially, if you look at the bottom elevation, the whole
front as it goes back to the side there is an addition that is going to happen right
here and right here. So, the fascia goes from here, turns back, comes across here
and dives back probably ten feet and goes back on the other side, the west side as
well. It's a 9 foot fascia, so it's metal studs. It's cheating and then it would be the
stucco... simulated stucco, so that is the majority, I think its about 3000 or 3500
square feet of fascia and then just this element here, with this arching roof, all of
this is one piece. You actually buy that. It's $80,000. You buy that and they put
it in. We supply the footing and the electric to it. And that's....
Wright: I feel another comment that...
Glembot: That's all that's involved in the pricing on this...
Penny: That's the extent of the metal panel, would be just this...all below
the fascia is going to be, right now the front here and here there is a little wainscot
here. The addition is all going to be painted brick, white to match their program.
It will be brick from here. We did add those pilasters here to break up the
windows. All of that and all of this whole front here will be brick. As you turn
towards the back, where the service addition is, that is going to be split facing.
Wright: Above that black strip, is that also fascia material?
Penny: From here to here is EIFS. It's going to be 4.5 feet. The top is
white and the bottom is black. How they apply that... they essentially paint it.
Wright: Can you show me, as you showed Council Member Reid, can
you show me what the materials are that are on... so I can get a feel for the shine.
I have got 20 here, so I am not sure which ones are right. Just show me which
ones are right.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Penny: These are what they want. We suggested doing the matte finish.
These four. This is a small amount above where the Buick and the GM sign
goes.
Wright: So kind of on the back ground of the sign?
Penny: This is sort of the arching side, the black and the majority is this
muted silver.
Wright: I heard you say that's just in a reveal, so no one cares. Okay. Is
the matte... I hate to ask this because I expect another entertaining remark about
the process, can you get the matte from GM for only a minor...
Penny: (inaudible).
Wright: Someone from planning... if from a standards standpoint, so this
entry feature that is all one mass that includes the sign, would that entire feature
be considered a sign element or is it a building element?
Boucher: We just talked about signs a few months ago, if you all might
remember. There is a bit of interpretation into this, but I would say this... when
buildings have branding... what you are trying to do here is just does the building
itself meet with the guidelines that are put together. Buildings can have features
that maybe typical of every building...
Wright: let me help you with why I am asking. My question is so you
have your building standards, is there... what I am trying to get around because
there is the specific issues here and GM and all the fun and happiness around
that, but as we are considering why we may make a compromise position or as
we assess the guidelines, what I am trying to get at can that element be
considered the same way that the BAR in the past has considered the Golden
Arches or things like that. Not, are we in trouble because the sign is too big.
Boucher: Say that last part again, I didn't hear you for a few seconds.
Wright: The are we in trouble or the part before that?
Boucher: Just the last one.
Wright: So, is this element... what I am trying to get at is this
architectural element... entrance feature... is this architectural element something
that is able to be considered as an architectural element that is similar to the
golden arches or things that we have considered and allowed based on other
criteria?
Boucher: It can be considered an architectural element and not a sign.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Wright: Annie... everyone has to have fun today. Based on the BAR
guidelines and what I read is we would allow... the guidelines aren't helpful in
this particular case... we would allow certain corporate or franchise elements if
you will, based... as long as the materials... tell me...
McDonald: The guidelines state specifically... trade marked buildings,
those which have a distinctive exterior appearance and are readily identifiable
with a franchise or chain business do not necessarily reflect the historic building
character of Leesburg and should be discouraged. If such buildings are used, they
should be modified to relate both to the specific site and local building traditions,
particularly regarding the building's siting, scale, construction materials and
color. The BAR has previously found that other trade marked buildings,
McDonald's is a good example, do by virtue of the materials used and all of the
design features, meet the guidelines as presented. In this case, the BAR found
that the issue that made the building noncompliant with the guidelines for design
expression on Page 24, and as repeated in the staff report, this is part of the
record... were not... it was not compliant with this guideline because of the
guidelines for materials, which state extensive use of reflective or tinted glass,
enameled or decorative metal wall panels, or other similar anonymous or
nontraditional wall materials should be avoided.
Wright: It specifically has the word extensive in the guidelines?
McDonald: It specifically has the word what?
Wright: Extensive. It sounded like you were reading...
McDonald: Extensive use of reflective or tinted glass, enameled or
decorative metal wall panels or other similar anonymous or nontraditional wall
materials should be avoided.
Wright: Thank you.
Martinez: So, you mean those warehouses out there with all these
entryways? So you are getting this....
Penny: They actually build it when someone orders it... yeah, but they
are not just sitting like FEMA trailers.
Martinez: I just thought it was funny... all you have to do is build a
footing and then you just set it in there. So, by the way, that black thing reminds
me of Groucho Marx, above the door. What I was going to get at, I agree with
Tom on the Form Based Code... it was something that we should have done, but
in this case here, I'm not going to criticize our staff, because one of the things that
all of our BAR and Planning Commission and Commissions are doing is what
we, as a council, approve them to do and it's a process. Sometimes it's
burdensome and a real pain in the butt, but it's something that, you know, we are
14 1 P
COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
not singling anybody out for it. I hope you understand that. You know. This is
just part of the process. I think that one of the things that we don't... aren't real
good at is taking care of the branding issue and the fact that you guys are stuck
and you have to comply or you lose some business... you know... so, I am
willing to support this and go along with it... but again, you know, this is just we
have worked like the devil to improve our planning process and this appeals
process is part of again, what the town council has done, so it is just again, one of
the things that we have gotta learn to live with. I do appreciate you coming out
here and I hope you go home happy.
Hammler: no comments at this time, but I certainly appreciate and
support some of your earlier comments by colleagues regarding us working
towards updating the guidelines as well as amendments to the H -2 corridor.
Butler: At first, I would like to ask clarifying question of Marty, if I may.
If you say you support this, you are talking about the compromise? Okay. I can
go with that since... and I am not willing to disparage staff or the BAR. I suspect
the BAR in their hearts may be perfectly willing to go along with the compromise
as well. I also won't disparage the company that required a multi billion dollar
bail out from the government to now demand an appeal from the government's
ruling... but that's a whole nother issue. I understanding the branding. So,
anyway, I'm with Marty.
Wright: I was just trying to clarify the compromise position. It sounds
like what you are asking us to do is to modify the BAR's approval to allow...
metallic... what are we calling these? The metal materials.
Penny: I think we would like the decision that the entry portal element
would be constructed of all ACM panels as depicted in the elevation and all other
horizontal fascia going across the entire front facade of the building would be
EIFS material.
Wright: Then, was it only the black that was going to be the matte finish,
or what was available in the matte finishes?
Penny: The black only comes in a matte finish, so the glossy black would
be substituted with a matte black for the entry.
Wright: Thank you.
Mayor: Do we have anyone on staff working on what appears to be a
modification? What I am hearing up here is there appears to be a majority of
Council who wish to reverse part of the BAR's decision and modify it towards
that compromise. Yeah, but we need the exact wording. So, I am getting a sense
that is where we are headed.
15 I t)
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
McDonald: To include specific language on page 6 of the staff report that
was provided to you, we included a motion to modify the decision of the Board
of Architectural Review rendered on 18 July 2011 by and then with specific bullet
points we thought you might want to add in based on the testimony this evening.
We weren't sure exactly how that was going to go. If that was going to go with
the matte finished panels or the reflective panels or the gloss panels.
Mayor: Mr. Penny, I think if you could work with Annie. Do you want
to be the one working, or Brian, and get the exact language so that when we get
to a vote which I anticipate we will do shortly, we have a compromise that Mr.
Glembot can live with. We would appreciate that. I do have a couple of
questions, probably for staff and they are related to what Kevin was asking about
the sign. I know, Annie, in your report you talked about the BAR... one of the
conditions they put was that the sign would go back to staff for approval. I get a
sense that Council would like to approve the sign as part of its vote tonight, but I
could be wrong. You don't want to do that? Okay, alright.
McDonald: And the sign is specifically basically the text. Star, Buick,
GMC, service... that would follow our standard procedures for administrative
approval and then issuance of a sign permit by our zoning staff.
Mayor: Well, I need to know whether there is going to be any disapproval
of this sign by staff.
McDonald: No.
Mayor: It's approvable as it is?
McDonald: Correct.
Mayor: That's good to know because I am sure Mr. Glembot doesn't
want to be back again. But, I can certainly support the compromise position. I
appreciate the hard work the BAR did. I am sorry that Mr. Glembot got caught
in the middle between General Motors and our regulations.
Dunn: Question about procedure that we might be taking up here in a
moment. If we were to reverse the BAR decision, does that mean that the
modification is actually what is being approved, or is by reversing it, going
underneath the original application and that is now slightly changed?
McDonald: I would ask the town attorney for guidance on that.
Irby: You can affirm and then modify. Or you can reverse and
completely restate what you want the criteria to be or you can just modify, just so
as you are clear with respect to what the applicant is going to be receiving and I
believe staff is working on a motion as we speak.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Dunn: I guess again... just to restate my question is that if we reverse it,
does that mean that the original application that the applicant brought forward is
approved and is that really what we are modifying to anyway?
Irby: I don't think the applicant wants a reversal so that his original
application is approved, correct?
Dunn: So you want something different?
Penny: We want the modification.
Dunn: Okay.
Irby: So, I wouldn't recommend that.
Mayor: Okay, I am now formally going to close the appeal hearing, but
let me read the next step again. Following the closing of the appeal hearing, the
town council shall discuss the merits of the appeal and shall promptly render a
decision. In taking action on the case, the town council may either reverse,
affirm, the BAR's decision wholly or partly or modify the BAR's decision. We
can recess for five minutes. Jeanette, do you think they need five? We are going
to recess for five minutes.
The public hearing was closed at 9:08 p.m.
Mayor: Let me read how this motion to modify is drafted and then I will
ask for a motion and a second. This is the way it has been drafted: I move to
modify the decision of the Board of Architectural Review in case TLHP 2011-
0034 rendered on 18 July 2011 to permit ACM panels on the entry element that
are matte black, matte white, aluminum and silver in color as depicted on the
illustration titled Star Buick GMC proposed elevations Option B dated June 30,
2011 and prepared by Penny Design Group.
Penny: It's actually just white. There is no such thing as a matte white
metal panel.
Mayor: Alright, just eliminate the word "matte
On a motion by Council Member Martinez, seconded by Council Member
Butler, the following was proposed:
MOTION 2011 -032
I move to Modify the decision of the Board of Architectural Review in
Case TLHP 2011 -0034, as rendered on 18 July 2011, to permit ACM
panels on the entry element that are matte black, white, aluminum and
silver in color as depicted on the illustration titled "Star Buick GMC
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
Proposed Elevations, Option B" dated June 30, 2011 and prepared by
Penny Design Group.
The motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor
Umstattd
Nay: None
Vote: 7 -0
Glembot: I just want to say thank you to all of you. I went through this
process probably about five or six years ago. The difference between then and
now is night and day. I want to thank Annie. I know that she spent a lot of time
on this. Brian Boucher. There is a whole bunch of other people in engineering
that need a pat on the back. I just say thank you.
b. Amending Chapters 7, 20, and 32 of the Code of the Town of Leesburg
The public hearing was opened at 9:22 p.m.
Jeanette Irby: I will be very brief. I am sure Council had time to read my
very brief agenda item. From time to time, little glitches show up in the code.
The ones this evening, although minor, they will make life easier for the residents
of Leesburg. The scriveners error for Arts and Cultural District, the taxation,
licensing and miscellaneous regulations. I want to point out with respect to the
massage therapy business, what was happening is we have a couple of large
chains that are coming in to do business and the owner under the current
regulation is required to be a therapist. What we are doing is we are eliminating
that requirement. You can be an owner of a massage therapy business, and so
long as all of your therapists are licensed by the Board of Nursing, you can open
the business. The way it is written right now the owner would also have to have
a license even though they are not giving any type of massage therapy. So, that is
to address that concern. With respect to the reciprocal tax payment collection,
Council is aware that we are now having a reciprocal agreement with the county.
So, for ease of use, we thought it would be good to set forth, again in the code,
what the requirements are with respect to our residents. Traffic and vehicles.
That was in one section of the code, the fine I think said $20 when in fact the fine
on the previous page was $40, which had been amended previously by council.
So, again just to clear that up and the police department wanted a defined time
with respect to commercial vehicles being parked in residential neighborhoods.
We tried it without having a defined time and of course people ran a truck
through it, so they have requested two hours.
Mayor: Thank you, Jeanette. Questions from any Council members for
Jeanette.
Dunn: On the parking for two hours. So, if somebody is doing work at a
person's home on a cul -de -sac, they might not be able to park right out in front of
a person's home because of the narrow frontage, is that going to limit if....
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Irby: No, it's people who are not at a home doing business. If they are
just parking their vehicle and they are not doing work with respect to a
homeowner, that is all this is for. It is for people who are leaving commercial
vehicles in neighborhoods that are not doing work in the neighborhood. That's
what this code section is designed to eliminate.
Dunn: Okay, just looking over this, you have got words in here such as
construction, installation of equipment, performing services. I was just trying to
think if there was anything else that could possibly be left out of that. But you
don't feel that there is... that should cover any type of work that somebody might
be performing.
Irby: This code section has been working with the exception of folks
parking and not having any work in the neighborhood. Again, if there is
something else that comes up... and we interpret it liberally. We are not out to
get journeymen. We are out to get those who just park commercial vehicles in
residential neighborhoods without having any business being in the
neighborhood.
Dunn: It doesn't limit it to, from what I can see, it doesn't limit it to work
that has to be specific to that location. For example, they could park on an
adjoining street because they are performing work on the next street over.
Irby: Right.
Reid: I think there is a slight error. Being an editor, at least I feel there is
an error.
Irby: What section are you looking at?
Reid: Section 3, page 2, I think you meant to say Article, but you have
article crossed out. No person shall give or offer or hold oneself out to offer as a
massage therapist within the meaning of this... and then it jumps to without first
having obtained a massage therapist permit from the town manager. Do you
mean this article? Should we add the word article back?
Irby: Are you looking at an underlined section, Mr. Reid?
Reid: It's a crossed out section. No person shall give or offer... it's the
bottom of page 2, section 3.
Irby: No person... yes. Leave in Article.
Reid: So, do I have to make an amendment at the appropriate....
Irby: No, it's a scrivener's error.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Wright: I also had a follow -up on the traffic and vehicles. It looks like the
in excess of two hours. How did that read before? Did it just say for a period of
time?
Irby: It just said for a period of time except while loading or unloading.
That's all it said, so the police department wanted a defined time.
Wright: I know we have talked about this before. If someone has got...
then again, I may not know my weight...
Irby: It's not personal pick ups... it's bigger...
Wright: So the little HVAC vans, where a lot of folks have them at home
with them. I know we have several on our street, they park on the street. They
go in their house. They sleep for two hours until someone's air conditioning
breaks and then they go again. This isn't going to get them.
Irby: No.
Butler: Just one and again, this is a very minor typographical detail. But
there is some areas where Director of Finance is capitalized and some areas
where it is not. I didn't know if that was on purpose or if we should make it
consistent one way or another. Probably capitalize.
Irby: Okay.
Mayor: Jeanette, back to the commercial vehicles. If there is a
commercial vehicle that is parked in front of a home and in the home lives the
owner of the vehicle and they have a home based business and the vehicle is
related to that business, this would outlaw that vehicle from parking there for
more than two hours.
Irby: Well, it could because they are supposed to be in their driveways,
not on the street. We are talking about the bigger commercial vehicles. We are
not talking about the vans. We are talking about the small uhaul.
Mayor: So, a small moving van would be prohibited.
Irby: It could trigger it.
Mayor: I will probably vote against this because of that. I know of one
situation where there is a family and they do have a small moving van that
sometimes gets parked in front of their house for probably more than two hours.
We have dealt with this issue before and it has come up before, but I appreciate
your answer. Thank you.
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
Reid: Madam Mayor, would it help if we made it four hours, or are we
not allowed to do that under the code?
Irby: We can make it longer. It's up to you.
Mayor: Kevin lives in the general vicinity and feels they are not parking
in front of the house as much.
Dunn: I don't think that really is the issue, though, because you don't
stipulate whether it is in front of the house. You are just saying parked in a
residential zoned area and that means that could affect them. But, 10,000 pound
vehicle is a very large moving van. I don't know what theirs is, but I would be
very surprised....you think so? So, in other words, you are saying this would
impact those people because it's a residential zone.
Mayor: Four hours... Council Member Reid and I were discussing that
four hours might be a little bit more palatable. Any other questions of Council
Members on this?
Reid: Is that substantive, Counselor? Or do we have to...
Irby: Well, you are making it more lenient, so you are fine.
Reid: Do a motion and a vote?
Irby: You can do a motion amending it to four hours and then accept the
change.
Mayor: Jeanette, thank you.
There were no members of the public wishing to speak to this issue.
The public hearing was closed at 9:33 p.m.
On a motion by Council Member Reid, seconded by Council Member
Martinez, the following was proposed:
ORDINANCE 2011 0 019
Amending Chapter 7, Section 7 -8 BPOL Tax Rebate, Chapter 20, Article
II, Section 20 -24 Duty of Finance Director to Collect Taxes and Article X
Massage Division2. Permit, Section 20 -324 Massage Therapist, and
Chapter 32, Article V Standing and Stopping, Section 32 -143 Parking
Commercial Vehicles on Residential Streets
Mayor Umstattd requested a friendly amendment to change two hours to
four hours.
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COUNCIL MEETING
Council Member Reid accepted the friendly amendment and added the
editorial changes that were previously discussed. The friendly amendment was
also accepted by Council Member Martinez.
Dunn: I would, just for the record, mention that it was from the Police
Department that brought up the two hour time limit and by bringing it to four,
that's half a work day. So, it's... I feel for these folks, but I don't want to let too
much go by that now it opens the gates for other people to take advantage.
Again, this goes to when we create resolutions and zoning that we shouldn't be
doing them for just one, it should be for the town as a whole. I will go ahead and
support it, but I do have to take into consideration the suggestions of the
authorities who suggested it.
11. ORDINANCES
a. None
Butler: I agree wholeheartedly with Tom.
RESOLUTION 2011 -119
Adopting a Legislative Program for 2012
September 27, 2011
Reid: I would just say we are liberalizing this for commercial vehicles. I
have been through this in Tavistock where the problem is not so much the
commercial vehicles, but it is the definition. We have school buses and we have
air conditioning vans that are parked on the street and the residents have
somewhat calmed down about this, but because they fall under 10,000 pounds,
there is nothing that we can do because that is the statute. But what we are
talking about here is really very, very rare vehicles. We are talking about moving
vans and I think moving to four hours is actually liberalizing things and making
things a little bit easier for businesses. It's not going to really hurt residences that
much.
The motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor
Umstattd
Nay: None
Vote: 7 -0
12. RESOLUTIONS AND MOTIONS
a. 2012 Legislative Agenda
On a motion by Council Member Reid, seconded by Council Member
Butler, the following was proposed:
Reid: I would like to make a friendly amendment on the Lyme Disease
eradication. It's really editorial... if you look at Page 3, my colleagues, I want to
say that it addresses the control and eradication of deer ticks that cause Lyme
Disease in the commonwealth. Page 3. We would love to eradicate Lyme
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
disease, but it's the eradication of deer ticks that cause Lyme disease that I
wanted to stress.
Wells: The very last page.
Reid: The very last page, page 3, under Lyme Disease eradication.
Wells: It's the last item.
Reid: Are you okay with that Dave?
Butler: I'm okay with that.
Mayor: Alright, so that has been accepted as a friendly amendment. Any
other comments, Ken? Dave?
Butler: Not yet, but in case something jumps out I would like to reserve
that.
Dunn: I would just... I'm sure I won't get any support for a motion, so I
won't bother making it. But I will state again that I am not for Leesburg moving
to City status. While there could be a tax savings for doing that, I have concerns
about the Council's ability to manage a $100 million budget, never mind now
giving it a $300 million budget, which would effectively be the case of going to a
city status. So, I do not support that on our legislative agenda.
Wright: As I mentioned, I don't think we are at city status yet, but what
we are speaking on tonight is something that doesn't hurt to have as an ongoing
conversation. There are several steps that we need to complete prior to city
status. Most significantly, one of them being resolution of what else, if anything,
to annex. Whatever size we are when we go to city, that is pretty much where
we are going to be. So, we need to kind of... the annexation process would need
to be resolved prior to the city status process beginning in earnest, but right now,
we have no way to start the city status process, so it doesn't hurt us. I think we
can continue the conversation. That's the reason I am not making a lot of noise
about it.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, to that point, I know it was in our packet and
we discussed last evening a Loudoun County legislative list, which is not part of
this resolution that has been brought forward, unless I am missing it somewhere.
Wells: We were going to suggest to Council that there may be other items
that you can address on a different time line.
Hammler: Well, I think the time line is critical in the sense of the same
points we were making right after the November elections, we need to get in gear.
To that end, I would like to make a friendly amendment to include the Loudoun
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
County legislative items that would include... reinitiating the annexation
discussions, the PEG partnership, and the issue of proffers. Which was outlined
in our packets.
Butler: These are issues for the county? Okay.
Mayor: Okay, that is presented as a friendly amendment.
Reid: The Balch Library, too? Is that part of your...
Wells: Funding for Balch from the County.
Hammier: Yes.
Butler: I am thinking that while I don't disagree with anything that
Council Member Hammler stated, I am thinking that might actually be a separate
item to send to the county.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, if I may respond? So, John, could you...again
you were trying to point out the point, because I thought we were planning to
bring forward tonight the resolutions... there isn't another one here, but clearly it
has been outlined and discussed.
Wells: It has been outlined and discussed. I know that the Council has
brought up items last night. There is also a number of other items that the
Council had identified in previous discussions and certainly as Council can
certainly take that action tonight, there is likely to be other items that you are
going to want to talk to the board about. So, again, it was just again my
suggestion to wait a meeting or two, flesh all of those out and then have a
complete package because we would be meeting with the board sometime
between their election and the time they take office, which was what the
Council's intention was... so as to not pile too much on at one time and add
those other items, it was just a suggestion.
Hammler: Well, again, it was in our packets and discussed, so my
friendly amendment stands.
Wright: Well, actually I think Dave said it wasn't friendly... so we can
address it from there.
Butler: Yeah, I think it's a separate item. If we want to take it up tonight,
I think that's fine, but lets make that motion and do it as a separate item.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, in the interest that I know many residents are
here to discuss the items that they talked about during the Petitioner's Section, we
can add that either to new business or the next work session, whatever is the will
of Council.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Mayor: Alright, that has been retracted temporarily. Anybody else on
this resolution?
Reid: Yes, Madam Mayor. I don't know if this is going to be friendly,
but I am still going to offer it. Just to ask for legislation that would allow the
Town of Leesburg and it's engineers to construct the widening of Route 15 with a
median break at Linden Hill and to indemnify any contractors from any liability.
Mayor: Would you like to add the town and its employees to that list?
Reid: Yes.
Mayor: Okay, and you are making that as a friendly amendment at this
point, which would mean Dave would have to accept it for it to go forward.
Reid: Well, I can offer it as a regular amendment.
Mayor: Alright, is there a second to that proposed amendment?
Dunn: Seconded.
Mayor: That's a second from Tom. Ken, any other discussion on this
amendment?
Reid: Well, I know that the town attorney certainly advised last night at a
work session and I want... this is for the benefit of folks in Country Club and
Linden Hill, that one of the alternatives to allow a traffic light or a median break
was basically ruled out because it did not meet the standards, but we were told by
the VDOT representative that the town can do whatever it wants, but the
problem is that the engineers and the employees of the town and the contractors
have to work with the standards. So, what I am asking for here is legislation even
though it's a great leap of faith, that would allow the town to essentially do the
Route 15 widening project with a median break so that Linden Hill residents can
take a left. Our legislators may not even bother to introduce the bill, but at least
we can ask for it.
Dunn: You miss one meeting... I feel like the no hair stepchild. I would
fully support this. In fact, I would fully support that we vote on it tonight. The
engineers, when we met with them, they said that is a decision for the town to
make...the engineers...VDOT, they were all here in the same meeting and they
said that was actually a town decision. If that were actually voted on, then that
would leave the engineers and town staff to find a way to make it work because
that would be the policy that we went by and that could have all you at home
tonight doing what you all do better than having to sit here and deal with us for
two years. I would support having the break. I would support trying to get the
state to change those regulations. After all, it's on paper and by the way, the
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
current safety standard that exists today, as you drive back home, would be
improved by having a break. The break in the median would be a safety
improvement, not as much as they would like to see, but it would actually be a
more safe situation than the one that currently exists and you all could have a
pleasant evening if we could actually decide that this evening.
Wright: Actually, the comment from the engineers was, that weren't
employed by VDOT, was they could not approve such a plan under any
standards, be it state standards or other standards, because the international
standards... national standards that they have to abide by in their ethical
standards will not allow them to approve a set of drawings. The legislation that
Ken is asking for our state delegation to introduce, is basically legislation
indemnifying the engineers, the town and the construction personnel from
ignoring published, nationally recognized safety standards. I don't think that's
something that as the town of Leesburg, we want to be asking.
Hammier: Madam Mayor, just quickly, when I was in the military, we
were trained as soldiers that it was our responsibility not to follow an illegal
order. Clearly, we are pointing out how do we change the law in this case so it is
in fact legal, but in fact, I think as Council members, we need to abide by more
ethical obligations from a safety perspective to adhere to the guidelines that have
been presented from a safety perspective. Certainly, I completely appreciate
where you are coming from because we share the absolute frustration in not
being able to do that median break, but I cannot add that to the Legislative
Agenda from a moral /ethical perspective.
Butler: Yeah, I can't be in favor of deregulation that causes significant
safety concerns.
Mayor: We do have a motion to amend with a second. I will simply say
that I don't see the legal harm in asking, but I do believe we will get nowhere
with it, nor do I think even if the state passed such legislation that it would toss
out all the international or national standards that are tying the hands of the
engineers legally as much as any state standards are. So, I think this is a bit
empty. I can support it only because I see no problem in requesting it, but it is
not going to go anywhere because it isn't just state standards that are governing
what our engineers legally and ethically can do.
Reid: I would like to say that there have been cases where the town... the
town council has had the authority to go against the professional advice of the
engineers in turning radius' in the Lowenbach subdivision. Maybe because we
have more control or latitude over street standards, but again, as you pointed out,
Madam Mayor, we are only making a request and a lot of the stuff we have in the
legislative agenda has been requested for years and years and none of our
legislators have bothered to pick up the sword and carry it. A lot of the things
that we are asking for are also maybe not going to pass the legislature, but I
would like to at least give one last stab at this. If it doesn't work up here on the
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
dais, then the residents can ask their legislators for this. That would be
something that I think both the Country Club and the Linden Hill residents could
work together on. Yes, I agree with my colleagues that it is certainly a leap of
faith, but I still am going to offer this.
The motion to amend failed by the following vote:
Aye: Dunn, Reid, and Mayor Umstattd
Nay: Butler, Hammler, Martinez, and Wright
Vote: 3 -4
Butler: I am not sure I expect this to gain any enthusiasm, but what I
would like to do is replace the paragraph under eminent domain with the
following paragraph: The town council requests that the General Assembly
define lost access and lost profits narrowly so as to minimize impact to local
governments for ongoing maintenance operations and minor road construction.
Mayor: That's a motion. Is there a second? I'll second.
Reid: So, what you are asking, Dave, is that we are not going to oppose
the constitutional amendment, but you are asking that you change the definition
of what is lost profits?
Butler: In the constitutional amendment, it is basically requiring that the
General Assembly define lost access and lost profits. I don't believe that there is
a chance that the constitutional amendment is going to fail and I am certain it
will pass the public, so the real game will be defining lost access and lost profits.
Reid: So, therefore what you are saying is that we should ask our
delegates and senators to introduce legislation that would narrowly define what is
a lost profit.
Butler: Right.
Reid: Do you want to get more specific in terms of things like festivals,
parades, road construction?
Butler: Well, we could, but I think this level of a request would at least
beg the question from the legislators of okay, exactly what do you mean and they
would come back to us for more input and then we could explain further.
Reid: Would it be okay... so you are saying... so therefore what you are
saying is that it makes no sense for us to oppose the constitutional amendment
because it has passed the General Assembly...
Butler: it has passed one session. It needs to pass the second session.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Hammler: Madam Mayor, if I may just provide a suggestion, which
would be just a simple phrase, that you know... if it is the desire of the General
Assembly to pass the constitutional amendment, then...
Reid: Yes, but... I would accept that as a friendly amendment with that
language, Dave... would you?
Butler: Yeah, that's fine.
Mayor: I don't think you made the second, did you?
Reid: I guess he didn't ask for it being friendly.
Butler: I'm fine with that.
Wright: Clarification. I think Katie's comment was trying to keep the
original paragraph in and then add the next paragraph.
Hammler: I believe that was how it was construed, because it certainly
was my intent.
Butler: I will actually nod. I would have preferred....I'll tell you what.
Why don't we take that up as an addition. I am going to make a motion to
replace the first paragraph or to eliminate the first paragraph.
Mayor: Okay, we are dropping the proposed amendment at this time and
then you are going to make another motion?
Butler: No, what we are doing is the proposed amendment is an additional
bullet point.
Wright: So the current amendment is the additional bullet point, see
what happens with that and then you made another one.
Hammier: But it's the same topic. So, why would it be a different bullet
point. I think my thing makes more sense.
Butler: The second paragraph under the eminent domain bullet point.
Mayor: Where is Katie's friendly amendment?
Butler: That's Katie's. Okay, so let me rephrase. We will start from the
top. The current motion is to amend the eminent domain paragraph by adding a
second paragraph underneath the first paragraph and the second paragraph will
say "If the General Assembly...
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Hammler: If it is the will of the General Assembly to pass the
constitutional amendment, then you go into your language... in other words the
key point is we adamantly oppose it but if and only if, there is no other option at
that point, then boom.
Butler: Then the Town Council requests that the General Assembly
define lost access and lost profits narrowly so as to minimize impact to local
governments for ongoing maintenance operations and minor road construction.
Mayor: alright, the amendment would be... the motion to amend would
be in the form of adding a second paragraph "If the General Assembly passes the
constitutional amendment, then the Town Council requests that the General
Assembly define lost profits...
Butler: Lost access and lost profits.
Mayor: Lost access and lost profits narrowly in relation to...
Butler: So as to minimize impact to local governments for ongoing
maintenance operations and minor road construction.
Mayor: So, that is now your motion to amend?
Butler: Yes.
Mayor: I will second that, unless somebody else wants to.
Reid: So you are going to just limit this to road construction and
maintenance for the lost profits?
Butler: No, maintenance and operations.
Reid: Just during road construction?
Butler: No, maintenance, operations and minor road construction.
Reid: Okay, well how would this affect festivals and....
Hammler: I don't understand why we didn't do this during the work
session.
Reid: He just thought of it... it's okay.
Irby: You realize, that part of the concern is that festivals and that stuff
will be affected by this, but you are just staying the two components of minor
road construction and whatever... you are not including a further definition at
this time?
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Butler: Well, if there is another word that we could add.
Mayor: You don't envision your proposed amendment having anything
to do with festivals or parades...
Butler: We could, if we wanted to add it in.
Mayor: Operations might cover festivals and parades?
Butler: I thought it might, but I think the bottom line is they are going to
come up with much different language anyway, so I am not sure... this is not a
resolution for us... this is just a topic basically. So, I think it's probably good
enough to help them recognize that this could impact these kinds of things for a
town, that we are not just talking about taking farm land.
Mayor: Jeanette, any thoughts?
Irby: I prefer the way it is written right now, without any additional
because we are going to have an opportunity to fight the good fight another day
because it has to go through the General Assembly, it has to go to the citizens to
vote and as Mr. Butler has pointed out, they have left it vague as to what those
definitions are to have an opportunity to minimize the impact of this legislation.
I know that there is a constituency that is affected by this legislation with respect
to farmland, but that is not a constituency that lives in Leesburg, so as far as the
town is concerned, I am most comfortable with the way it is as written; however,
it is a policy decision of Council and how you all want to go forward and handle
it.
Dunn: In looking at this in more detail, I would rather not have this
whole proposal as part of our legislative agenda because while this is looking out
for the interest of the town budget, it is basically we have a lot of land owners in
town right now and should the town do anything in front of your property that
could cause you loss by opposing that we would not be mandated to compensate
you for said loss and now to actually go forward and narrowly define and require
us to additionally narrowly define what that loss would be, I can't support that. I
would not support us opposing the fact that we would not be compensating land
owners for the loss that we cause them.
Mayor: Valid point.
The motion to amend failed on the following vote:
Aye: Butler
Nay: Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor Umstattd
Vote: 1 -6
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
Reid: It is going to be a difficult year to get legislation through because
the General Assembly is dealing with the budget. We have a totally different
legislature because of redistricting. I really urge the citizens to look at our
legislative packet and talk to your General Assembly members. We sometimes
have difficulty getting them to come to a dinner. We get our locals to come like
Joe May, Mark Herring. They have been very good. Some are not so good in
Loudoun County, so it is a totally different group of people. I hope that staff will
reach out to the candidates now and just go ahead and invite them to a meeting
the first or second week in November and even if they lose, they lose. But if they
have an invitation before them now, they can at least get it scheduled. I urge the
residents, if they are listening tonight, to really talk to your General Assembly
members and they will have a hearing the first week of January at the
Government Center, but by then, it is almost too late. Talk to your legislators
and ask for legislation. Look at our agenda. Lobby them. Buttonhole them. We
are giving them... we have listed these things at the request of certain residents.
We may have missed something. So, that is what I would encourage our
citizenry to do. Just look at our agenda. Call Mark Herring, Joe May and
others. Get on the radar screen. Get on their agenda. Again, I want to thank
Staff and my colleagues for doing a good job with this. Let's hope some of these
bills are introduced.
The legislative agenda was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor
Umstattd
Nay: None.
Vote: 7 -0.
b. Making an Appointment to the Commission on Public Art
Mayor: Tom, would you like to defer that? Or do you want to go
forward?
Dunn: I guess go forward, it's a position that needs to be filled.
Mayor: All right, you are making a motion to appoint Amanda Bello to
the Commission on Public Art? I'd like to defer just so as she could more
thoroughly document her residence in Leesburg. If you wouldn't mind, could we
do that, to the next meeting?
Dunn: Okay.
Reid: Can't we have non residents on the public art commission?
Mayor: If they have a business. They have to either be a resident or have
a business in Leesburg.
Reid: They have to own a business or be a resident to be on the
Commission for Public Art?
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Mayor: Right. Thank you, Tom.
c. To Consider a Motion Regarding Acquisition of Property at 1 Country
Club Drive
Mayor: So, we have Item 11c, which is a resolution rescinding
authorization for the town attorney to acquire the property and parcel at 1
Country Club Drive in order to develop the Linden Hill Access Road to Country
Club Drive in coordination with the South King Street Widening Project. Is
there a motion?
Hammier: So moved.
Butler: Second.
RESOLUTION 2011 120
Rescinding Authorization for the Town Attorney to Acquire Property and
Parcel at 1 Country Club Drive in Order to Develop the Linden Hill
Access Road to Country Club Drive in Coordination with the South King
Street Widening Project
Mayor: Moved by Katie, seconded by Dave. Katie, any additional
comments?
Hammler: Yes, Madam Mayor. First of all, thank you all for staying so
late, specifically regarding this resolution. It actually was something we were
attempting at a special meeting for last Friday. The reason for that is originally
the auction was going to be 1 o'clock on Friday. At a late hour, that in fact was
postponed so we were able to bring this forward at a regular meeting. The key
point is that the original goal was a strategy to reduce the cost of acquiring the
right of way and the things that have changed since originally we determined that
it would be a reasonable strategy in order to reduce those regular costs is that very
quickly we realized that there was a significant decline in value of the property in
question. Two, more significantly, the public made sure of the amount that the
town would offer at an auction so a government going forward and having an
authority to purchase something at a price in which increasingly banks are in a
situation where they are not trying to release the property so somebody could
force our hand as relates to paying too much money for the property. Three, the
town staff in fact was not able to get the additional information in terms of
getting into the particular property in order to really access the significant costs of
the property management, the maintenance issues and any costs for the resale
and the only way that we really could recoup costs would be through a resale, so
for fiscal reasons as well as keeping this straight forward at this point, we are
requesting that the town attorney no longer participate in an auction to purchase
this particular house and I did just want to add that I appreciate all the
responsiveness and team work of Council given some of the imminent deadlines.
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
Butler: I just want to reiterate that this resolution does not mean that we
are not going to build the access road. It also does not mean that we will not end
up buying the house, but originally this seemed like a real easy thing that okay
the house was on the market and we went and offered the asking price for the
house and it didn't work and it has been a slog all the way through. I know you
don't have the benefit of some of the closed sessions and I won't talk about those
certain, but if you knew all the details that I know then you'd understand a little
better why we are at the point where we can't go forward to try to purchase this
house because if we do, we are quite likely to spend an awful lot more for the
house than what it is worth and we can't in good conscience do that and we don't
have to buy the house. The normal way to build an access road or any road or a
sidewalk or anything is to acquire right of way. So, we can do that. That's the
normal course of operations. Buying the house was something that was totally
foreign to how we normally do business in the town. We thought it might be
appropriate for this particular project but as it turns out, buying the house is
extraordinarily problematic. Also, we originally thought it quite likely that the
auction, that the initial bid on the auction would be more than what the town
attorney was authorized to spend so we didn't really care because we thought
that there was no chance that we were going to buy the house at the auction, but
then information came to light that said we may end up paying the maximum
authorized amount for the house and we couldn't in good conscience do that
because it was significant dollars potentially that we will save. So, the easiest,
simplest thing to do now is to say forget the house. When the time comes, we go
through the normal procedures, acquiring the right of way and if some thing
happens that it still makes sense to buy the house, well okay, we can still do that,
but there is a lot of logistical impact to doing that and so at this time it's not
worth it. We need to keep it simple and make it happen and not get into a
quagmire that would be unfortunate.
Martinez: Well, from day one, I was not a fan of becoming a real estate
broker, or the town becoming a real estate broker. So, this is something that I
thought we needed to not do or be part of buying a house from day one. One of
the things that I looked at talking about paying more for the house. You have
to bring it up to certain codes to even think about selling it. I am looking at my
Google Maps and I see pools that are blue and the pool at this house is green.
So, the question comes okay once we become owners of that house, what do we
have to do to fix it. I just felt that we should never been an acquisition.
Wright: I guess clarification to staff is that as this project exists today
there is now three directions we are operating under. One direction is the
direction we are addressing tonight, which is the direction to the town attorney to
acquire the property, which she has been slamming her head into the wall for
some time trying to do. The second direction is the direction the majority of
Council had previously passed to design this access road /lane, whatever you
want to call it. The third direction is the direction that the access lane exists in
the CIP. I see you nodding. What this action tonight is addressing is basically
having the town attorney stop the activities on acquiring the property on 1
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Country Club, it does not address the balance of those actions... for later
discussion. I will support this because I think that the Council could use the
benefit of time as they look at the other issues. As I have said throughout the
process, I do not think that this access lane is the way to go. I have actually... I
have been looking at the map. One of the things that didn't even entirely click for
me when we talk about the protected U -turn movement at Greenway, is that is
the sole movement. There is not an inbound road that would be coming in from
the Meadowbrook property, so that someone making a right on red could t -bone
someone making a u -turn because there will not be an inbound road even in the
developed condition. So, the condition I have made throughout is that even if we
build this road... and we have heard citizens comment on this before, residents
will find that right in, right out, left in and will probably become the more natural
way of using it, both with the protected u -turn movement and with the
completion of Battlefield Parkway, which is also in the CIP. It's an adjustment,
but I think it's an adjustment people will not find near as painful as the
perception. So, obviously I will support this and support two new discussions on
better ways to deal with this.
Reid: I want to thank the residents for coming out tonight and I again
want to offer my regrets for not being able to make the special meeting at that
time last week because of a family commitment. I have gotten some grief from
some people who thought I should have been there. I am sorry I had that
commitment. I probably should have told my kids sorry I have got to go to this
meeting. So, I usually do that and our colleagues do do that. I think that a lot of
folks run for Mayor and Town Council and are not aware of the fact that we are
all part timers. We don't have any staff. We don't earn a salary, really. If you
want to call it that. We spend an inordinate amount of time reaching out to the
community and that was what was done here with Linden Hill residents who
were extremely concerned about not being able to take a left turn. We tried very
hard, and you saw tonight, I have made one last stab effort to try to get some
legislation... at least the Council to endorse legislation that would allow an open
break. So, we have investigated all these different ideas, but as Dave and Katie
said and Marty... they said to continue down this path trying to purchase the
house is really not getting us anywhere, so I keep an open mind and I have been
more than happy to meet with all the residents at any time. My number is 703-
779 -8777. Really, I am always available and my colleagues are always available.
I work in downtown Leesburg and I am available day or night to talk. Again,
sorry I wasn't at that meeting.
Dunn: I was not at the meeting myself and actually it would have been
my understanding anyway, had I even known about the meeting that only two
Council members should go to a meeting and discuss public matters. It may have
been a public meeting. I'm not sure. But, I can't say that I am very familiar with
both neighborhoods in question. I am very familiar with the roads. I have been
in there many times and I think that what I want to try to do a little bit this
evening is to separate fact from fiction. We can create our own facts and call
them as such that this is just the way I want to believe things to be and I am going
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COUNCIL MEETING
September 27, 2011
to call fictional things facts or my emotions are now facts or my feelings have
become facts or what somebody told me is fact or what I read on the internet is
fact. But facts are facts and they just can't change. The... a couple of things I
just want to bring up, because there have been some issues that I have heard
about. I have seen your all's emails. I have read them and only a few
unfortunately I have been able to reply to so far. But there was concern that the
folks in Country Club were not being informed about this process. Do you have
that, Lee Ann, about the meetings? I asked staff to give me some of this
information to.. when I saw your emails I asked staff to provide me a lot of
information. It was on a short notice, John. Your staff did a great job coming up
with a lot of information. A lot of facts. So, on the South King Street widening
project there were some seven... well excuse me, actually part of this, you have to
even Meadowbrook. With the Meadowbrook discussion there were about seven
meetings that were open to the public. On Linden Hill, there were ten different
meetings, five of which the Country Club residents were informed about over a
couple of year time period. As recently as just, I think last week, you all had a
meeting. I have a little experience in this area too. I have over 19 years in
mortgage banking. As such, I trained in real estate appraisals. I am not an
appraiser; however, I can read an appraisal very well. Do you have that
appraisal, Lee Ann? I can bring up this appraisal, because it is my house. To
show you that... if you go to page three, you will see that on an appraisal,
because there was concern from folks in Country Club that this is going to affect
my values. Hear that a lot. We hear that from the folks in Linden Hill, but what
determines the value of a property. Well, I can tell you right now, if I asked
everyone, who has the best house in the neighborhood, guess what? It's mine.
We all have the best house, otherwise we wouldn't live there. Unfortunately,
when dealing with an appraisal, that's not what really determines what's best.
Your values are not determined by traffic lanes. Your values are not determined
by whether you have foliage or trees or shrubbery in the front of your
neighborhood. The value is determined by what your neighbor sells for. How
many of you would like to have a neighbor selling a house for $50,000 more than
what it is worth today? We would like that, you know why? Because that has an
impact on the value of my property. Had the town gone ahead two years ago and
paid, which we had the option to do, paid full price for this property, it would
have actually had an impact that would have increased your values by continuing
to put pressure on staff to keep going at lower and lower prices, we are actually
having the impact to lower your values because it's a sale. You want the town to
purchase the property for as much as we possibly can to have an impact to
increase your values. If you look up here, if you look at right about in the middle
of the page there is a thing called that says site, view, design and appeal. Do you
notice how many dollars are applied to those items? Next to nothing in fact on
this nothing. The reason why is because those are items on an appraisal that
have next to no value no matter where you are unless you at looking at a
mountainscape. Your site, which is your property, how it is laid out, the size of
it, but the view the property has to that around it, you hardly ever see a value on
an appraisal for a view unless it is a significant improvement. Knowing the street
too, I have heard a lot about safety was a concern. Well, I know Bob Zoldos.
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
You all know Bob, he is your neighbor. He sits kind of at the crest of that hill
and I know that from Bob's house I can see all the way down to that intersection.
I'd probably have a pretty good chance to apply brakes from the top of that hill
down to the bottom if I see somebody coming out from that intersection. A lady
tonight mentioned that she did a study that there might have been 12 cars or so
that were stacking up. If we have two lanes, now those 12 cars don't stack up,
there are only two cars basically stacking up. I think that again, we can hold
views that they are true and facts or just that we feel that this is the way that it is.
I can tell you that when it comes to an appraisal, the impact to this property will
have minimal impact. Unfortunately, I also asked staff to give me the sales in
your neighborhood over the last year, year and a half. There were 26 sales. They
ranged in prices from the lower 400s to the upper 200s. The average of those 26
sales was about $337,000. You heard Council tonight say that the values were
coming down from the time that we started the process and we set it at about
$375,000 that we could have purchased it to to now down around $337,000.
Hopefully, I'm right there with you. I can tell you this, my house isn't valued at
that appraisal anymore. Hopefully our values don't go down, but again we have
very little impact unless we are going to do major improvements to our house.
Our neighbors who sell their homes do. For those Council Members who sat
here and I would venture to guess still today would dictate to staff, I know I
would, go out and pay full price for that house, which is approximately what's
owed on... about $425,000, right Jeanette? Pay full price for that house, thereby
helping to increase your values. Now, you say wait a minute... that's too much
to spend. We don't want the town to spend a million dollars on this project. I
can assure you the folks that are saying it's spending too much on this project
were very willing to spend... in fact Council Member Butler had a big bucket
here one day and he poured a couple of drops in it that said that should we build
a $7 million bike trail, that is just a couple of drops in the budget to what the
overall budget is over the time. Well, I can tell you that a million dollars is going
to be even less than a couple of drops. By the way, we also would have the
opportunity to recoup some of that million dollars if we could turn around and
sell the house. So, again I tried to bring some fact to this. I am very cognizant of
your concerns in Country Club. I can also say well should we then act like
Solomon up here and divide the baby? Maybe what we should do is for those
people that feel that making a u -turn is a nonconsequential situation, that we
should go ahead and put a median the whole length of King Street. I don't think
you would like that either. That would block off the entrance to your
neighborhood. You'd probably be screaming about that because of the u -turn.
So, we have worked diligently... by the way I don't agree with that word in this
motion. There have been many efforts that have been put before the town to try
to make this happen. Unfortunately, it has come down to Council actually
working to find ways to not make it happen. That may be what Country Club
wants to hear, but I think that when there is issues that you care most about that
you want to get done, you want Council to stick to their word and this is the
word that Council gave these folks two years ago to move forward on this. It
seemed like we were looking more for ways not to make it happen than to make
it happen. I for one, I can't go back on my word and I don't feel... we know each
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September 27, 2011
other... I don't feel that going back on my word is a sign of weakness. I would
rather see us not even do the widening project, which I still doubt the numbers...
which by the way I'm not going to bore you with those... but we are talking
about approximately 500 more cars in the peak hours that are causing the need
for this whole widening project. By the way, when the engineer said it, 700 cars
are coming from South of town and the assumption is that 600 vehicles are going
to come from Meadowbrook. How many homes are in Meadowbrook, John?
Roughly? 400, so we know that there is a certain number of cars that come out of
Meadowbrook, but in my assumption if they are all coming, it means that the
majority of them are going to come off of Battlefield onto South King Street and
then turn north. You know what, I don't know why those people would be
taking that long about way to get around town when they have a perfectly good
Battlefield Parkway to go east. Why would they come west and then go north?
So, I doubt the whole need for the widening of South King Street. As most of
you, if you get my response to the emails, I would be more in favor of just killing
the South King Street widening project as a project and if you are really interested
in saving the town money, you would be getting behind that effort to avoid
having to spend money on South King Street thereby eliminating the need for the
cut through, thereby eliminating the need for an access road, thereby eliminating
all your needs for lost property values, access lanes, on- street parking, which by
the way, I commend your neighborhood, you hardly have any on street parking.
I wish I could get that in my neighborhood. There is hardly any on street parking
in your neighborhood and it looks great because you have nice big driveways.
But you don't have South King Street widening, then there is no need for this
whole proposal. Unfortunately, I am not going to get a lot of support for killing
South King Street widening from the rest of Council, although I would definitely
be in favor of that. I would also be in favor of tonight making a motion to allow
for Linden Hill to have the cut through in the median to alleviate all these issues
too and the access road and let the engineers be damned. I can say that as a
combat engineer in the army myself. They can make it work and staff can make
it work if they really want to put their effort towards it. I still question those
things. But some people might say, Tom you are dealing with fiction and not
fact, but that's debatable. So, I have to stick with what I had told the folks in
Linden Hill. It's not that I haven't taken into consideration greatly the issues that
folks in Country Club have and the concerns that they have but I also had to look
at this and say well with all these issues, staff can you please show me what the
facts are versus what the fiction is. When I see that you have had meetings, that
you... property values I know... property values and what they are based on
because I have experience in that and I also know that yes, believe me, up here I
am one of the most penny pinchers out there, but I think that when people have a
situation that arises in their neighborhood that the government could have
prevented and didn't that they should find some resolution and after all of our
efforts, this access lane was about the best we could come up with because
everything else was being shot down.
Mayor: Thank you, Tom. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible because
I know you are waiting for the vote. I appreciate all the courtesy from the
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
residents of Country Club and Linden Hill. As I have responded to many emails
from Country Club, I regret that I cannot support the position of the folks from
Country Club tonight. I will be voting against this resolution. The South King
widening project, which I think will become more and more critical as the years
go by as more and more traffic heads north on 15, has had... will have a
disproportionate and negative impact on the residents of Linden Hill and when
the government takes action that hurts one community, I think we have to
mitigate that damage. So I do support this access road. The engineers have
clearly told us that they believe they cannot approve a median cut, which is what
many in Linden Hill would prefer or a traffic light, which is what others in both
Country Club and Linden Hill would have approved. I am very proud of the
community of Country Club for not venting anger against Linden Hill and I am
proud of Linden Hill for being very courteous and wanting to work with the
Country Club neighbors, but the access lane I know has concerned residents of
Country Club, but I see the entirety of that project as being a tremendous plus for
Country Club because it will provide a second left exit lane out of Country Club
Drive onto the north bound lanes of King Street. That is going to cut down by 50
percent the wait that Country Club residents now experience trying to make a left
on King Street. Without this access road, I don't know that is going to happen
because it was part of the plan to accommodate what I think is a very minor
addition to traffic on Country Club Drive to Linden Hill. When I looked at the
plans I observed that all on street parking along Country Club drive would
remain so there would be no negative impact to that on street parking except for
the one space in front of 1 Country Club that would go. The median although it
would be near the would be planted with trees, so I think the entrance to
Country Club would be as attractive as it is now. The large attractive sign on the
south side would remain, so that would not be taken away. This would give
what I think is the safest solution for Linden Hill residents and that is their ability
to get onto Country Club drive and turn left and head north at a traffic signal.
The alternative which is what we are going to... which I think what the Council
is doing tonight is going to force on Linden Hill, because I think tonight the
access lane project dies with the vote. The alternative is for them to head south
onto King, do a u -turn at a light. We have perhaps led Linden Hill residents to
believe that because we are somewhat promoting the u -turn solution don't worry
you will all get through the light. Well, as the folks in Greenway and Woodlea
who are heading north on King find that they don't want to sit there at the light
waiting for Linden Hill residents to do a u -turn that light is going to get shorter
and shorter. So, Linden Hill residents are going to be stuck in that left turn lane
waiting to do their u- turns, so I think it will be worse than we may have initially
described to them. It is also going to... if we keep our promise to Linden Hill
and ensure that they can get through one left turn /u -turn light cycle, then we
back up traffic headed north from Woodlea and Greenway and we will start
getting complaints there and there will be citizens coming in and there will be
battling over how long the u -turn left arrow signal is going to last. But, I don't
view u -turns in general as being a safe solution to any problem and I think that
you are going to have folks from Linden Hill who are going to be at risk because
as they slowly try to maneuver a left turn, a u -turn you are going to have traffic
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
coming from the south and we have all complained about it with the speeding
and I think we are going to have some more accidents there and that would be a
shame. That's all I am going to say. I'm sorry I couldn't agree with the majority
of the folks in the room. I do respect your opinion, but I have favored this access
lane from the time that Ken first proposed it and I continue to favor it as the best
solution for both Country Club and Linden Hill. Katie, you get the final word.
Hammler: I'm not sure where to begin given the last two speakers except
for the thing I was thinking about when the Mayor spoke specifically is one I
appreciate the fact that she did attend the Country Club /Linden Hill access lane
information session last Thursday. I did attend that meeting. She was able to
stay until of those of you where able to attend spoke. I was able to stay even
longer to talk one on one with Mr. Katz and others so I absolutely appreciate the
fact that there is a broader issue here. I appreciate that in listening last Thursday
that Madam Mayor was pinpointing a key point that was brought up in terms of
have we determined that we have a problem? So, discussion about the access
lane as it relates to do we have a problem. I appreciate how Kristen has now
articulated that she fundamentally believes there is a problem relative to the u-
turn. As I was listening to Council Member Dunn, my concern really was this
desire to kind of focus in on creating a lack of trust on this dais relative to what is
a very complex, difficult decision because I do agree with the Mayor relative to a
duty of government to ameliorate issues, in this case dealing with the widening of
the road. What calls into question is there a problem. Will we know that until
such time as we try a u -turn as a solution to the problem and so forth. All of
those are very important points and very important as it relates to this very messy
situation which you could argue is a democracy or perhaps you could call it a
flawed process in that Country Club residents are now just getting an opportunity
to voice very important points. But I am extremely optimistic because that
meeting was, I think, very helpful. I absolutely appreciate the courage of Sondra
Camp coming forward and articulating again all of the many months of very
important that Linden Hill neighbors have brought forward and the tone has been
consistently positive which has been what we really need to focus in on. What I
think as a Council Member we need to focus in on is what we are doing tonight,
which is we need to make the best decision in light of a strategy that we originally
outlined which was determining whether going to auction in order to achieve
right of way was the way to provide the least cost to citizens for a right of way
given a viable option to ameliorate an issue for Linden Hill. That's what this
resolution solves. What this does not do, as Council Member... excuse me, Vice
Mayor Wright pointed out... what we will not be doing this evening, we will not
be killing the project. We will not be authorizing construction for the access lane
and we in fact aren't even authorizing a specific payment for the right of way.
So, I will apologize to all of you now, but this will be a continuing process,
because we are going to continue to make the best fiscal decisions based on each
thing that needs to happen. I can speak for myself, I will continue to listen. I am
on record as saying I support this as a extremely viable last option to ameliorate
the issues for the Linden Hill residents. But, yes, more and more people may
come forward with what may be the silver bullet. At the time, in which we
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
have... with my friends in Linden Hill, are we going to be willing to do
something extremely messy in this light of creating additional distrust on the dais,
certainly coming from Council Members who are trying to kill the project. Is this
going to be that dysfunctional situation that we are not going to allow ourselves
the ability to determine and phase this and give ourselves the willingness to say
there is a problem, determine what the metrics are for determining that we do
have a problem and the only way to solve it is in fact the access lane. So, tonight,
I am bringing forth this motion in order to isolate the flaws dealing with spending
too much money and the issues dealing with a government who would be
handcuffed spending too much money in an auction strategy and it doesn't
achieve our goal. That's the end of it. I will look forward to continued
discussions and continued open and very responsive communication because we
are doing the best by neighborhoods and I absolutely appreciate everybody's
willingness to participate and all of the proper tone that you have brought
forward to make sure that we do the right thing by all residents.
Butler: Madam Mayor, can I just try one quick clarification? It sounds
like there might be some confusion on the dais but the special meeting that was
scheduled for last Friday was not held... there was no special meeting, so no one
attended. It was not because the auction ended up being postponed at the last
minute. For that special meeting, all legal procedures were followed before we
scheduled it.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, for the record my interpretation of Council
Member Dunn's was that perhaps the input... the Linden Hill access
road /Country Club session was illegal. That was publically disclosed as well.
For the record, I think that both meetings were adequately publicized and
certainly legal meetings.
The motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Hammler, Martinez, Reid and Wright
Nay: Dunn and Mayor Umstattd
Vote: 5 -2
13. UNFINISHED BUSINESS
a. None
14. NEW BUSINESS
a. Letter of Support for Keeping the Downtown Post Office
On a motion by Council Member Reid, seconded by Council Member
Butler, the following was proposed:
MOTION 2011 033
I move that the Town Council indicate it's strong support to have the U.S.
Postal Service maintain and operate the Downtown Leesburg Post Office.
Staff is directed to draft a letter on behalf of the entire Council to be signed
by the-Mayer all Council members highlighting the importance of
40 1 Pag
COUNCIL MEETING
Reid: well I gave you that memo.
Reid: Senators Webb and Warner and Congressman Wolf.
September 27, 2011
maintaining operations at that facility. Staff is further directed to monitor
the Area Mail Processing Study and report back to Council periodically in
case further action may be warranted.
Reid: I would like to ask for a friendly amendment to ask that all the
Council members sign the letter and then it be sent to Congressman Wolf, it be
sent to our delegates and also our two U.S. Senators.
Mayor: I think it should be sent to all those people. The only thing I'll
say on... if all Council members can get into sign it in a timely fashion, that
would be great, otherwise, it may have to go out without all signatures and then
that will look like they didn't support it. That is my only concern about the
signature line. So, it's kind of up to Council whether...
Reid: I don't think we are aware of any time limits, are we Kevin? We
could have it at the next work session, the next meeting.
Wells: I don't know... from what I have seen on the website, there is not
a real clear time line on the study.
Wells: I went to the website based on the letter, and so there is not a clear
time line. I think speed is of the essence to get the word in quickly from the
elected officials perspective and then it is going to take an ongoing effort to
monitor what is referred to as the AMPS or the Area Mail Processing Study
which we will be learning a lot about together. That's on a different time line,
but it's not clear exactly how long that's going to take. If we draft the letter and
have it available over the course of the week, that's fine. I don't think we ought
to wait terribly long though. I would hope all the Council members could be
available within seven days to come by and sign it.
Mayor: If all Council Members feel that they would be able to get in and
sign it within seven days, I think that is fine.
Dunn: I don't think we need all to sign it, but if that's what you want to
do, I'll make the effort.
Reid: I just think it's stronger. I was actually thinking more of a
resolution of Council, that means we would have to have it for the next meeting.
So, we are okay with that as a friendly amendment, Dave?
Butler: Yeah, I guess so. As long as... now who are we going to send it
to? I think we should send it to our federal representatives. I don't think we need
to send it to our state representatives.
COUNCIL MEETING
Butler: That's okay.
Wright: I'll support the motion, but obviously I would like the downtown
post office to stay open, but if I kind of zoom out a little bit. Katie mentioned
this last night too, if you look at the bigger issues with the postal service, I am still
fascinated that they have been talking for three years about going to five days a
week and then they were debating which day... it's like duh, Saturday. This isn't
difficult, but I worry if you take... and when this first came up, I was driving
Katelyn to camp out in West Virginia. We were driving by these little post
offices that are the only ones for 20 miles and some of those are on the list.
Given the choice between our downtown post office and someone that now
doesn't have one within 20 miles, I don't know that I would select ours over that
one. Obviously from the Town of Leesburg perspective, we would like to keep
the downtown post office there. I do think as a parallel action to this, we need to
figure out how we can encourage appropriate re -use of the building, so it doesn't
simply become an abandoned building in the event that it closes. I think the
bigger issue, that I would love to sign a letter to our representatives, is when the
post office opened their annex facility... their sort facility, the large lot where all
the mail trucks are on Catoctin Circle was supposed to become the customer lot,
that would give you ways in and out and that never happened. So, perhaps at a
later time... we don't want to make them mad right now, but perhaps at a later
time after the Area Mail Processing Study is done, we can revisit the when are
you fixing the parking lot discussion. Because that needs to be fixed regardless
based on a lot of conversations I have had and with the growth in this area...
there needs to be adequate access to that post office.
Wells: Madam Mayor, if I can just respond to both Vice Mayor and
Council Member Reid and others may have some of the same thoughts... one
point that maybe I should have articulated. I don't think this is going to be the
only communication regarding this issue. As this study goes through and we
understand how it is going to work its way through, I think there will be
opportunities for further input. I didn't suggest a resolution to start with because
I think there may be an opportunity to have a more forceful input at a different
time in this process once we understand what that process will be, so I think there
is going to be letters, I think there is going to be resolutions. I think there is going
to be economic development opportunities. I will tell you without naming
names, I have already had someone inquire about reuse of the building.
Mayor: A restaurant? Oh, yes!
Hammler: Really?
September 27, 2011
Wells: There is already those types of discussions. The point is, I think
this is a good first step, but I think there is going to be a lot of discussion around
this... what to do... if that is going to be the only post office on Catoctin, how do
we make that work better? I think Vice Mayor Wright is correct, there is a
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
number of things that were promised that weren't completed. There is going to
be a lot of opportunities to push on different issues here. I would just offer this is
a first step in multiple.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, I was on record last night as saying that I am
focusing more on the macro issue, which is in fact the six billion dollar deficit of
the entire postal service and to the extent that we in fact factually determine that
something isn't being served, as an amenity, although I do know there is many
things we are trying to get downtown that should be amenities... I could go off
on that tangent, which I will not. But, I don't know what prompted this really.
Was it one person who mentioned that they will have to go... you mentioned a
lot of traffic. I just don't know what the facts are that support why we are going
to this quick letter so quickly without really examining it and certainly given the
six billion dollar deficit that we would be reacting and basically saying fine, we
will just be part of the problem instead of trying to be part of the solution.
Reid: If I may, first of all, Council Member Wright's response... Vice
Mayor's response... I think you are very, very... you know, the way this
started... I don't know if you recall, former Senator Waddell came to the
Council, I think in 2007 or 08, asking us to support a letter to Congressman Wolf
to ask for a new post office.
Hammier: So, I didn't support that then either.
Reid: Well, what happened is they built a carrier annex and now Kevin
mentioned, which I did not know about, that they were supposed to allow the
customers to park at Catoctin post office and they haven't done that so that needs
to be in the letter. So, the letter has to be detailed and researched well. I don't
think we should get into the issue of economic development. We should ask
what they plan to do with that post office. I don't think that we should be
advertising that we want the post office replaced because there are a lot of people
who use the downtown post office. I am downtown every day and I see it. The
other thing is, I don't think we should advertise that some areas of other parts of
the country are losing their only post office. The reality is that Loudoun County
and the Town of Leesburg are growing exponentially and so I think that we are
different. In terms of Ms. Hammler's point about the deficit, it has very little to
do with infrastructure and has everything to do with the fact that the postal
service is one of the most mismanaged outfits in this country, which has basically
paid excessive salaries and benefits for years and has refused to get rid of
Saturday delivery. It is basically hampered by politics and political interference
from Congress and certain unions. That is where the problem is. Not the
infrastructure and it also has been very slow to automate and to get rid of the
need for people to do into the post office and do their business. So, again, I think
a letter is good. As John says, it's not the end of the process. I just think we need
to go forward. If you want to bring the letter back to the next meeting and look
at it, I'm good with that. I don't think we have to do it in the next week, but I
think we need to go on the record, because I think this is going to be a terrible
43 1 P a g
COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
inconvenience and problem for people in Leesburg, especially downtown
businesses and offices.
Butler: Madam Mayor, based on that ill- informed diatribe and that slam
against the hardworking members of the post office who have been... added
tremendous value and there is no chance that a private organization could deliver
mail from one end of the United States to the other for $0.44 or whatever the cost
for a first class stamp is now, so I withdraw my second. If I'm not allowed to do
that, I'm voting against the resolution.
Mayor: Just because Ken insulted the post office?
Reid: I didn't insult the post office.
Butler: No, it's also because based on what everything that everybody else
had said, I'm just not certain that this is a good idea to rush this through and add
a lot of other details and have everybody sign it and all that. I think it needs to be
a little bit more thought out.
Wright: Move to table.
Mayor: There is a motion to table. Is there a second?
Hammler: I'll second that.
Mayor: All right. It's non debatable.
The motion to table failed by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Hammler, and Wright
Nay: Dunn, Reid, and Mayor Umstattd
Vote: 3 -3 -1 (Martinez absent)
Dunn: I'll second the original motion.
Mayor: Tom has seconded the original motion. So, we now have a new
second.
Reid: I just want to move the motion.
Wright: Just one point of clarification... the original letter before we all
opined about other issues at the post office was about the downtown... keeping
the downtown post office. I brought up concerns and I specifically said those
concerns should be addressed separately; however, Ken mentioned perhaps they
should go on the letter. I want clarification... no, if you want to tick them off....
Other than the letter, if you want to highlight the high level issue that we in
Leesburg like the downtown post office and keep it simple... probably get your
44 E)
5
COUNCIL MEETING
Mayor: Ken, do you have any final comments?
Reid: No.
The original motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Dunn, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor Umstattd
Nay: Butler and Hammier
Vote: 5 -2
Dunn: Make it the town colors.
Hammler: Wonderful idea, awesome!
September 27, 2011
seven votes. If you drill into more detail, I think you are going to start losing
votes.
Mayor: All in favor of the motion to send a letter of support for keeping
the downtown post office, please say aye.
b. Approving Banners for the Trolley for the Halloween Parade
On a motion by Council Member Hammier, seconded by Council
Member Martinez, the following was proposed:
MOTION 2011 034
I move that the Town Council authorize the purchase of two banners for
the Town Trolley saying "Enjoy
the Parade, from the Mayor and Town Council The cost of this
purchase should not exceed $200
Hammier: Our ghoul for this particular appropriation of funds is to have
a much more spirited trolley for the Halloween parade. We have invited Paxton
this year... their Shocktober characters, which will make it a lot more fun and
interesting as Council Members accompany them. So, they will have their
Shocktober banner, but this gives us an opportunity to say Happy Halloween,
that this is our Council trolley at the head of the parade.
Reid: Are we okay to call it the Halloween Parade? Do we have to say
Happy Halloween or Alternative Halloween or All Saint's Day or...isn't it the
next day... there are Alternative Halloweens too...I'm just kidding.
Dunn: Seriously, I would suggest that we consider making it say "Enjoy
the Parade from..." that way it could be used for any of the parades that we are
in, so rather than just limiting to Happy Halloween, because then we are going to
be getting happy Christmas, happy New Year, happy fourth of July, so if we say
Enjoy the Parade, from the Leesburg Town Council... Mayor, then we could use
them for multiple purposes.
45 1 Page
COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Hammler: That's brilliant.
Wright: I just want to thank Mr. Dunn for his comments. Mine was going
to be can we in house this and make a homemade one. But I like better... let's do
something we can reuse.
Hammler: I appreciate everybody's great suggestions. I look forward to
seeing everyone on Halloween.
The motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Butler, Dunn, Hammler, Martinez, Reid, Wright and Mayor
Umstattd
Nay: None
Vote: 7 -0
15. COUNCIL COMMENTS
Council Member Butler: Just two small ones. I just wanted to clarify... to be
sure to clarify earlier, there seems to be some people that live out on or near Catoctin
Circle that have the impression that we are considering removing all the barricades
before all the construction is done, but my understanding is the only item that Council
would seriously consider is removing just the Catoctin barricades because Catoctin is
finished. The other two sets of barricades would certainly stay up until their
improvements are done. Last thing is just I would like to wish my wife a happy
birthday. It's her birthday today and I think since 5:30 this morning, I have been home
for six minutes. So, I'm...
Mayor: Happy Birthday, Pam!
Council Member Hammler: I'm glad you reminded me of birthdays this week.
Happy Birthday, Rich Friday! A little early, so it's a great week for great people. Just
wanted to thank again all the residents who were so involved this last week either
through the Catoctin issue and Linden Hill. I will respond to all the emails. I very
much appreciate all the time and effort that so many people have taken to participate. I
would like to suggest as it relates to Catoctin given the time frame that we did outline
yesterday, John, a great suggestion from Wendy and Mr. Campbell about doing the
recon, if we could actually make that official that we all go on a recon as part of our
information session. I think that would be extremely helpful, when we do that later.
And would certainly support bringing up for new business the SRTC looking at some of
the traffic issues on Mayfair. I thought this has just afforded us a great opportunity to
follow -up. I did want to let the Country Club residents know that we did bring up under
new business also addressing their issues that they have also brought forward through
the process of public information sessions regarding either their sidewalks, lighting,
some of the traffic issues... so we will be addressing those actively. I did want to
mention that I attended the defensible decision making workshop with Mike Chandler
last Saturday. I think he is just an excellent trainer for all of us. I know that those of us
who have been certified as Planning Commissioners, but I appreciated the leadership
that our planning commission showed and BAR inviting all the other localities in the
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
county. It was just a great opportunity for them to interact and learn from Mike as well.
My suggestion, though, because it is not easy to get to a Saturday session from 9 -3, it is
just another perfect opportunity to tape these things and make them available and
certainly Mike would have been willing to do that. So, just a quick thought on that. I
did want to mention a number of us will be attending the VML conference next week
and will be very proudly attending the banquet as well. I have been asked to lead a
specific break out session and did want to follow -up on Ken's earlier comment regarding
the legislative packet as relates to citizens specifically calling our delegation. But this is
just a great opportunity as a force multiplier for us to take copies of our legislative
agenda and just work the room. We are going to be focusing on the priorities. So, John,
I know I am heading back to my mailbox by the end of the week... at least, but whoever
else needs hard copies, but if I could bring some of those down, I would appreciate it.
Two final things... I did want to mention that the Balch Loudoun History awards
nominations are due by October 10 and please mark your calendars for the ceremony on
November 13` Finally, because I got in the mail this wonderful invitation to the public
service awards banquet, it just reminded me that our esteemed town manager is in
awesome company and just appreciate everything you do and your leadership, John.
Council Member Martinez: It's good to be back from vacation. I can rest now. I
don't have to work two part time jobs in California to pay the bills. We were visiting my
oldest daughter and my wife and her did a lot of shopping, but I did manage to get in
some ball games, so that's good too. I do think it's a good idea that we take a look at
Catoctin area maybe when they let off the kids from school, if we can do that. Maybe
we can continue a work session at Vintage 50 just down the road. Just advertise that a
little bit and I'm sure we will get a lot of people wanting to listen to us. VML, I am
looking forward to it. I will have to say that I am going to hit 34 next Monday.
Hammler: Is it your birthday?
Martinez: Yes.
Mayor: Well, hello young'un!
Vice Mayor Wright: I think everyone has touched on Catoctin. John, if you
can... I know you guys have been working on an idea of a scheduling approach and staff
kind of pulls that schedule together if we could get that update to the residents in writing
so they know what they are dealing with. Also, on your list, the VML dinner /carpool
for those of us whose work schedules don't allow us to be at the whole party, but want to
be down for the awards... I know you are driving.
Wells: I am driving... I have got the van reserved and I'll send out an email on
it. We will leave...
Wright: Let me know when I should be standing out front of my house...I mean
meeting you...
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COUNCIL MEETING September 27, 2011
Wells: We will try to keep that tight. I know all of us on that bus trip are trying
n'Y g
to make it as tight as we can. I have installed different bumpers on the van to help with
some of my parking challenges in Richmond, so I'll get you a note out this week on that.
Wright: I do have one disclosure... I met with Mike Banzhaf and representatives
from Kettler and Villages at Leesburg about a rezoning application. They have come in
on the residential component. Since we are piing on... my lovely wife, Dena, has her
birthday this Saturday.
Mayor: Happy Birthday, Dena!
Council Member Reid: I want to disclose that I had a phone call from a Gerard
with G2BM regarding a possible proposal for a hotel and townhouses on Liberty
Street and Andy Shuckra. I talked to him about the status of Oaklawn and the prospects
for a service station. I do want to first say that I am very appreciative of folks coming
out from the community, but I still think there is a lot of mis- information about the
access road and I think that the Mayor crystallized some of the issues we are going to
face if the only alternative is a u -turn. So, I still believe... again, I regret not going to
that meeting and I think that we are going to have a situation where people are
concerned about change and I think that change can be a positive thing for the
community. I did not mention the proposal that Mr. McCabe offered the Council about
creating a park there. When I talked to some of the residents of Country Club about
buying the house at auction and turning it into a park, they were a little bit reticent about
that... concerned about kids hanging out and so forth... I still think that something
could be done as a positive for the community. But, I am very, very glad that Katie took
the leadership role and maybe Dave helped with that resolution tonight. I do want to
say that in terms of Catoctin barricades, again, I want to reiterate the study is going to
have to look at more than just the impact on Catoctin Circle if the barricade is lifted and
if it is kept. It has to look at the entire street system, Plaza, Wildman Street, North
Street, Marshall... it also should look at Mayfair. It should also look at what the
increased traffic is going to be if we don't have a north /south street for a period of a
year. That is what I want to see. It will also be interesting... I don't know if you can
project what would happen if Queen and Washington were opened prematurely. Of
course, I am not suggesting it, but modeling studies I support. I see nothing wrong with
getting data on the table. So, I hope that the study will look at that. Finally, I just want
to say that I have been in the business... I have now observed my 20 anniversary in
business on the 25t of this month and my business is involved very heavily with direct
marketing of newsletter, books, and I have been involved with the post office since 1991.
I can tell you that from the stand point of my business and other direct marketers and
mailers, that it is a lot easier to deal with the Internal Revenue Service. Most businesses
probably fear the IRS, but the postal service really... you know for those of you who pay
thousands of dollars for direct mail, as I did two summers ago and then see that it took
literally three weeks for it to arrive and it was mailed in the greater Washington area,
some things have to be done. So, I'm not disparaging people who work t the post office
at all, but I am concerned about the management of it. Again, the political interference
from Congress and the lack of willingness to change. I support keeping the downtown
post office open unless, of course, they can figure out a way to add parking at the main
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post office on Catoctin Circle. I know they can accommodate the boxes, but without
dealing with the parking situation...ingress and egress, it is going to be a very, very
difficult time for people in Leesburg. This is what I have a problem with... semi
governement /government enterprises is that you know they constantly come
back...Amtrak is one of those... for subsidies and for assistance from the taxpayers
because they are not willing to take the step to the plate and make the cuts where they
have to make them. Now, the chickens have come home to roost. So, I agree. I am
sorry that I got a little bit overboard with what Kevin was saying, but it just kind of
struck me that we spent a lot of money for that carrier annex and they took down a lot of
trees, by the way, to build it, and yet nothing has happened with the parking situation on
Catoctin. So, we can keep that letter clean, but I just think that we need to really stress
to our elected representatives and to the postal service that this is a growing area and
there is very many people who have to come in and get packages. One of the things that
I have to do and this is really an international problem... after 9/11 foreign countries
started requiring declarations for books and stuff. I have to fill out a declaration form. I
have to bring it into the postal service to mail it. I can't have the carrier pick it up. I
have to spend my time or I have to send someone out to stand in line. We have to fill
out a declaration and they have to go through this rigamarole to send a book. These are
foreign restrictions, yet I don't know if the postal service has done anything to try to
harmonize these requirements. Direct mail, we still can't send direct mail bulk rate to
Canada. We have to use second class. So there is a problem probably world wide, but
other countries are willing to subsidize and this country is now facing a situation
where it is going to have to step up to the plate and deal with that six billion dollar
deficit, but it is larger than what we are dealing with in Leesburg. Our concern is the
Leesburg town residents and businesses that are going to be forced to drive down to
Catoctin Circle, fight for parking in order to mail a package. So, again I am looking
forward to us monitoring this process and I am very glad that we at least got the ball
going tonight.
Council Member Dunn: Thank you. I just have a disclosure that I met today
with the folks at Villages at Leesburg to discuss about their ideas for rezoning. I do want
to say that I regret immensely the folks from Linden Hill and from Country Club who
had to accept a mediocre resolution today that basically put everything dealing with this
project on hold and gave nobody an answer that they wanted.
16. MAYOR'S COMMENTS
I would like to disclose that I, too, met with representatives of Village at Leesburg
on their proposal to reduce residential density from 300 approved age- restricted units to
200+ townhouses or market units. That would involve, however, expanding residential
land bays into an area that had been reserved for commercial, but that will be going
through the process. I wanted to bring up the Chairman of the Planning Commission's
concern... she called me this evening before the meeting. She observed the Council
meeting last night, I believe, on television and didn't quite read our comments in the
same way that maybe staff read them. The Planning Commission, as you all know from
the email I sent you a couple of weeks ago, is very concerned about a piece meal
approach to the residential parking issue downtown and they would like Council support
to look at a more comprehensive approach. They were told...well the Chairman was
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told that only the Vice Mayor and the Mayor supported the comprehensive approach. It
would be a good thing if Council Members could touch base with their planning
commissioners and explain what their thinking is on it. I didn't read last night's
comments as saying that the Council is opposed to a comprehensive look. So, there is
some confusion there. So, if you guys just want to touch base with your own planning
commissioners to go over your thoughts on all of this, that would be great. Tom already
did.
Hammler: Madam Mayor, may I ask a question? It would be helpful if we are
aware of the timing, because I believe that was addressed in terms of how long will it
take for the comprehensive plan to come back for us to discuss. So, if we knew when
that was, we could probably deal with both issues, answer the planning commission and
preparing for it.
Mayor: I want to mention... I don't know how many of you guys got out to the
ProJet hangar on Saturday for the Family Fitness Day. There were over 2000 people,
families that attended. This was hosted by ProJet, but the event was sponsored by
INOVA, the Washington Mystics and Radio Disney. There was a lot of really good
music and if you are anywhere between the age of about four and sixteen, it was an
incredibly popular event. I think our police department did a great job making sure that
people parked down at the commuter lot on Sycolin and then VRTA bussed folks in by
shuttle. Standing in line at the door at the very beginning was a family from Manassas
and behind them was a family from Maryland and there were people from all over the
region, but it was incredibly successful, so hats off to INOVA, the Mystics and Radio
Disney for having that successful event at ProJet. Thanks to ProJet for offering their
facility. I wanted to let you know that the Council received a lot of praise from Col.
Neil Zimmerman of the Special Operations Warriors Foundation on the ride... it's now
two weekends ago up to Gettysburg and back. The Council unanimously supported the
ride and he was very grateful for that and in case anybody has forgotten, this charity
raises money for family assistance and college scholarships for kids who have lost a
parent in active duty combat in special forces, so Navy Seals and all the others. I
happen to know Navy Seals the best...
Dunn: Army Rangers...
Mayor: Army Rangers, and Marty has left, so we don't know what the Air
Force... Delta Force, okay. Anyway in part because of your support, they raised over
$30,000 for these kids. Which is incredibly helpful because we have lost more special
forces soldiers and sailors in the last year than in any recent time, so they wanted to
make sure that I passed along their gratitude to all of you.
17. MANAGER'S COMMENTS
Just a couple of quick notes. You might not have had a chance to see the email I
sent out this morning. If you have been by the Wolf Furniture site, clearing and grading
is underway. There are large pieces of yellow equipment moving dirt with people
driving them.
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2011 tcmin0927
Dunn: That means construction.
Wells: That means construction, yes sir. I just wanted to be sure that
everybody... you may not be traveling down that way that often, but that is very good
news. Second, I want to remind everybody about the airshow this Saturday. Ten
o'clock the fun starts and weather forecast looks pretty good at this point, so we are
going to keep an eye on that. But, it should be a great event. I know we had a great turn
out last year. A lot of continuing efforts went into improving the show this year. The
Airport Commission has done an outstanding job along with staff. I know there was
some question early on as to whether this could happen this year and I think we are
going to have a very successful event, so I wanted to put a plug in for that. Finally, prior
to the comments that Madam Mayor, you made regarding the clarification. I have been
in touch with the planning director and one of the things that we had thought would be
appropriate to do since last night's work session did not result in a direct vote was to
bring an item at your next meeting that answered the question regarding the time line
and where to fit in the comprehensive study, but also to get a specific vote on the
direction of what to do regarding the options. So, I didn't want anybody to be surprised,
but I know there was a little bit of ambiguity that folks might have felt. So, to clear that
up, we felt it was good to bring that back to your next meeting.
Mayor: Thank you. I also forgot to mention the chairman of the planning
commission also wanted me to remind Council that Council Members are invited to the
Planning Commission work session on the night of October 20 because they are going to
be discussing this issue then as well.
18. ADJOURNMENT
On a motion by Vice Mayor Wright, seconded by Council Member Dunn, the
meeting was adjourned at 11:13 p.m.
Kristen C. L.Tmstattd, Mayor
Town of Leesburg
September 27, 2011
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