HomeMy Public PortalAbout2011_tcwsmin1212Council Work Session December 12, 2011
Council Chambers, 25 West Market Street, 7:30 p.m. Mayor Kristen C. Umstattd
presiding.
Council Members Present: David S. Butler, Thomas Dunn, Katie Sheldon Hammler,
Marty Martinez, Ken Reid, and Mayor Umstattd.
Council Members Absent: Kevin Wright. Council Member Dunn arrived at 8:15
p.m.
Staff Present: Town Manager John Wells, Town Attorney Jeanette Irby, Director of
Planning and Zoning Susan Berry Hill, Deputy Director of Utilities Aref Etemadi,
Director of Public Works Tom Mason, Transportation Engineer Calvin Grow,
Environmental Planner Irish Grandfield, and Clerk of Council Lee Ann Green
AGENDA ITEMS
1. Work Session Items for Discussion
a. Watershed Committee Recommendations for Low Impact Design
Irish Grandfield: You will probably recall in September that Neely Law, chair of the
Leesburg Watershed Committee was here and had given a presentation with a set of
recommendations. You all had asked at that time to bring forward a resolution for
consideration and that is what we are doing this evening... is we are bringing forward
a resolution for consideration. In doing that, I had met with Department of Public
Works and Department of Plan Review and we have gone over the recommendations
and felt like there was a little more information that probably we should be aware of.
We think that if we start down this path there may be some possible budget
considerations that you will want to consider in a couple of years so we want to make
sure that you understand this and Bill Ackman and Charlie Mumaw and myself
agreed on the recommendations that you find in the report tonight. So, there is three
things I wanted to cover and the first is just what is Low Impact Development.
People tend to think because we focus on the stormwater management aspects of land
development when we talk about LID they tend to think that it is a series of
stormwater management facility types, but it's more than just that because it is a
comprehensive approach of site design, so it differs from conventional development in
that stormwater management is looked at on the back end of conventional
development. You have a sketch plan ... you go and develop a site plan or subdivision
plan and then you come to a point where you have to figure stormwater management
in some where at the low point on the site because water runs downhill. In Low
Impact Development, it's a little bit different and I am going to get into a little bit of
that very briefly and also focus on minimizing the generation and collection of
stormwater in the first place. If you don't generate it and collect it, then you won't
have as much of an issue in facility development to handle it. So, in conventional
development, what you have is ... you have a really efficient system for collecting
water. You have a lot of impervious surface in roof tops and driveways and roads an
all of them are routed into a storm drainage system and all of that is routed quickly
into a pond and water moves very rapidly during a storm event. The run off moves
very rapidly into ponds and that's a conventional stormwater management approach.
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With low impact development, what you have is a series of measures from the
beginning of the site design that are integrated into the development that we do see
less run off in the first place and then retained and reused and then filtrate that run off
so that you have a very much reduced amount of run off that is coming through the
site. That's how LID differs mostly is that in conventional development, you usually
end up with one large stormwater management structure or pond at the low end of
the site with low impact development, you seek to retain as much water on site and
you do it in smaller cachement basins so there will be several facilities on site whether
it is things like these infiltration trenches in parking lots or porous pavement, those
types of things are throughout the site as opposed to just one major facility at the low
end of the site. So, watershed committee recommendation was to update town
policies and regulatory documents to make LID the preferred development practice.
Right now, there are certain types of low impact development stormwater
management systems that are approvable in the town, but there is nothing that says
they are the preferred development option. There is one county and at least one town
that have regulations that specify that you should develop in their jurisdictions with
low impact development to the maximum extent practicable. So, you have Stafford
County and the town of Warsaw that are doing that and so instead of saying you can
request by exception to do low impact development in those jurisdictions, you are
required to do it from the start and then you request when you can show that it is not
practicable to use low impact development, you can revert to a more of a traditional
stormwater management approach. So, the watershed committee recommendation is
to make LID the preferred development practice in the town. This basically we see as
a two stage process. The watershed committee has volunteered and recommended to
you that you direct them to gather stakeholders, land owners, development advisory
group members, different commission members that we have to join with the
watershed committee and complete a review over the next year of the zoning
ordinance and the DCSM to identify what standards are in our regulations right now
that are contrary to low impact development. For example, road widths. In low
impact development, what you are trying to do is not generate as much run off in the
first place, so you would take a look at road width standards. You would take a look
at parking standards. You would look to see if there are barriers to use of practices
such as cisterns to collect rain water or green roofs. The watershed committee would
review those with the stakeholders over the next year and during this time, Bill
Ackman from the department of Plan Review has really said that we really need to
bring plan review staff up to speed on the low impact development type approach
because we don't have that expertise in the town. So, the first year, calendar year
2012, there would be the review of the ordinances and there would be the training
also for plans review staff. The second part, when that was completed and probably
would go through planning commission with a report to show you what they came up
with. Pick and chose what makes sense and how it fits with other objectives and
goals that the town has and come up with a list of the things that you could support
going forward for zoning ordinance amendment and DCSM amendment. We were
going to visit that second stage in calendar year 2013. In looking at this, it is feasible.
Other jurisdictions are doing it. We have heard concerns from engineers about our
soils and geology. The watershed committee has done the research. There are
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documents out there... technical documents about how to use low impact
development in karst geology. There are soils analysis that shows that we have
appropriate soils to use in filtration type stormwater management approaches on
about 60% of the land that is in Leesburg so it is not unfeasible to do this, particularly
if you do it in the way that you allow conventional stormwater management as the
option out when you can't use low impact development. Then, you are covering all
bases. The process recommended by the watershed committee is to work with
stakeholders to develop the list of potential ordinance revisions and that would be the
first step and then from there, the planning commission and town council would get a
report and you all could decide which zoning ordinance and DCSM amendments you
were interested in implementing. The economic impacts and financial. There are
two ways I wanted to describe this. The first was with the town. In talking with DPR
and DPW, they don't believe that we have the expertise nor the staff resources to do
the zoning ordinance amendment that would be required that would come out of this.
It was recommended that $150,000 be set aside to hire consultants to help update the
ordinances and that would be in FY 2013 and also $10,000 for training. So, there is a
financial or budget impact. When you move to step 2 of this process, unless we have
found the resources in the town staff to do these ordinance changes. As I have said, it
is staff's opinion that we don't have it. Depending on other priorities of Council,
maybe additional time could be freed up. At this time, our best estimate is that it will
require hiring a consultant. As far as financial or economic impacts for the
development community, if you go with a low impact development approach, there
are a number of studies that show that actually they generally save a little bit of
money by doing low impact development because they are building less hard
infrastructure... if your road width is reduced, if your sidewalks are reduced... if you
don't have to build the large pipe collection system for stormwater run off, you are
saving money. Alternatively, you are spending money on smaller, localized facilities
on a site, so there have been studies that show that developers actually come out
ahead in several instances and it varies on a site to site basis. I think the way that staff
or county describe it, they presented some examples where say on a $12,000 typical
cost for stormwater management for development of a Chick -fil -A in Stafford County,
they were able to get the cost down to about $7,000 and save the developer $5,000 by
doing low impact design as opposed to traditional, conventional development and
stormwater management. There are studies that show it's cheaper in some cases.
Overall, our representative has kind of comparable to conventional development so I
do not expect that there will be additional costs for development. Budget
considerations, DPR staff is asking for $10,000 for training in the upcoming year and
then $150,000 for consultant contracting for the ordinance revisions. This would be
the DCSM, the zoning ordinance and it also would be something that I believe you all
have talked about with the TMDL standards and our MS -4 permit. We have a
stormwater master plan for the town that was done in 1990 and is outdated. It is
anticipate that will have to be redone just to meet the TMDL requirements so this
money would go towards updating that stormwater management plan, doing the
zoning ordinance revisions and the DCSM revisions.
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Butler: Do we have an estimate as to what this might save us with the whole TMDL
issue?
Grandfield: We don't have an estimate, although we did hear last week, Bill, Charlie
and I got an update from A -Mac, our environmental consultants on our stormwater
MS -4 permit and they said TMDL, how much we are going to have to achieve in our
pollution reduction standards is going to be tied directly to the amount of impervious
surface that we have in the town. So, if we have an ordinance or requirements for
low impact development, the whole purpose of low impact development is to reduce
the amount of impervious surface in new development. So, as a result of that, if we
go with that as the default and conventional development as a back up we will be
better off because we will have less impervious surface for which those standards are
going to be applied than if we had stayed with conventional development, but I don't
have a figure for how much the town would save over time. The resolution we have
prepared for you is the one that the watershed committee had recommended. They
recommended that the Town Council provide direction for the watershed committee
to convene stakeholders to develop a list of possible amendments to our zoning
ordinance and DCSM to implement low impact development as the preferred option
for development in the town of Leesburg. That is the resolution that is attached to the
staff report and is on your agenda for consideration tomorrow night.
Martinez: On the money that you are going to need to continue this, the $160,000. Is
that something that needs to be done next budget year or the budget year following?
Grandfield: I think it depends on the decisions that your priorities that you make. I
think right now as we were recommending it, we envisioned it as part of a
consideration for next year's budget.
Martinez: I am sure you will highlight that during our budget discussions. I'm okay.
Hammler: I apologize for being a couple of minutes late. Jeannette and 1, we
thought we were on time leaving our last meeting, but thank you very much, Irish, for
the report. Just a couple follow ons, kind of along the same lines as Marty. This
certainly strikes me as being completely related to the TMDL discussion, which we
have already been briefed on fully. So, thank you for connecting those dots. But as it
relates to that, John, would this one either not qualify for grants, fall under the same
umbrella where we are seeking that we would be reimbursed as it's an unfunded
mandate? How do you see this playing out from an actual budgetary perspective for
us?
Wells: Well, there is a couple of different options, one of which it could potentially
allow us to reduce the cost by taking into account additional low impact development
alternatives, which would reduce the overall liability so the total number of TMDL
costs could be reduced by this or even by greater numbers potentially. A lot of that is
going to depend on what comes in the door in terms of development. In terms of the
outright value of the outlay, I think we are going to need to spend the money probably
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one way or the other. I think the way it is being proposed, by helping to work with
low impact development, it is also going to allow for work that is going to need to be
done in light of what's required under TMDLs. That's not giving you a direct answer
to your question yet, because I don't know that at this point.
Hammler: And along those similar lines, I guess we need to figure out where are the
grant opportunities sooner rather than later as it might specifically apply ... I think it's
a great idea. Applaud the effort. I don't think we are probably the first municipality
to think this through so whether an organization like ICMA or others already have
some of the training documentation that we can immediately make available to
developers, the sooner we get to that end point where we have amended the DCSM
and the zoning ordinances. Hopefully organizations have some of that template
information available.
Wells: Clearly, we don't want to be reinventing the wheel here, not to use a cliche,
but by virtue of the fact that this would likely need to be highlighted as an exception
to your FY 2013 budget, we will be looking wherever we can for offsets, grants or
some level of trade off in terms of its impact on the budget because if this is something
that we need to do and we know we need to do TMDLs at one level or another, this is
going to be something that when we match this up to connect another dot at the
council direction in terms of FYI 3, this has to fit in that model. While I don't have
the answer to it, know that when I get to the point of presenting the budget, a) I'll
have to highlight this as an exception, but b), I'll also try to bring forward some kind
of plan so that it doesn't have a negative impact on the bottom line of the budget.
Hammler: And begin researching those... opportunities.
Wells: Any and all options.
Butler: I think this is a great idea and I applaud the watershed committee for doing
the research and coming up with all these specific recommendations and everything
else. I think it will be inevitable sooner or later so I think it's great to start as early as
we can and also it will put us in good stead with the TMDL issue that we are doing
what we can and we are ahead of the curve and farther in front of most other
impacted communities so it has my support.
Reid: First of all, does the county have something similar?
Grandfield: The county has a more aggressive approach towards promoting use of
the LID type stormwater management facilities. It does not have an ordinance that
makes LID the preferred development alternative, but if you go to, for example Phil
Bolen Park, on their projects that they are doing, their capital projects, they are doing
low impact development stuff. If you go to the park, you will see the way the parking
lot is designed that water runs off the parking lot, not into a hard pipe collection
system, but through filter strips and that type of stuff.
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Reid: But they have never required it for private development?
Grandfield: Correct. They encourage it, but they don't require.
Reid: Why is that? Why do they not require it?
Grandfield: I am not sure why they have chosen that route or that decision. I don't
know the answer to that question.
Reid: What you are saying is that this is not going to cost the applicants any more?
Grandfield: That's correct. From the information that we have and there was
information in the report that went to you, that Ms. Law has provided in the
watershed committee report in September that demonstrated that in several instances
that it actually cost a little bit less for development.
Reid: But in terms of the pervious concrete, that has to be replaced so there is going
to be a maintenance part of it, if you use that.
Grandfield: There would be maintenance requirements for whatever stormwater
management facilities that get put in. LID maintenance becomes a little more of a
management issue because there is more facilities than in conventional design where
you have one pond and you can go in and retrofit or dig out one pond if you have a
settlement issue or something. Here, you have more dispersed type situation of
facilities in low impact design, but they are also handling less run off because you are
handling ... you are generating less run off.
Reid: So, basically the cost up front is less, but potentially over time it could be more
maintenance associated with it?
Grandfield: There could be and I believe that some of those issues are the ones that
the watershed committee is interested in working on over the next year and giving
you recommendations for as far as whether... on commercial development it is their
responsibility to maintain these facilities. I do believe they are responsible for
maintaining some of the stormwater management practices as it is.
Reid: Well John, you saw the hand out that I gave you from the NVRC Meeting the
other night where they informed me ... their staffer said that the county has only
elected to do the minimum reporting in terms of land use and best management
practices so they are not going whole hog on trying to reduce the sediments. Did you
get any follow -up on that?
Wells: We are attempting to get a better understanding from the county staff, and
you may be able to provide some insight in the future as to what the county's overall
strategy is. At this point, I can't tell you that I know that.
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Reid: Well, that was a Board vote, wasn't it? Back in September? That's what Mr.
Goulet said. So the county is not going ... I think they are taking it slow on this, right?
Wells: That's what it appears to be.
Reid: So, why would we want to be an outlier? Why would we want to essentially
require pervious concrete for new parking lots when it is going to be a maintenance
item over time and spend $150,000 potentially on consultant to implement this? I am
a little ... it's got to be your decision folks, but I am a little skeptical about going
forward when the county is not ... just encouraging and not actively doing anything. It
seems like they are not doing much on the TMDLs. I am very surprised that they are
not, to be honest with you because I think this executive order might go by the
wayside. We have several years before we have to actually implement this if it stays
in effect, right?
Wells: Well, there are gradual stages of requirements that you have to meet. The first
level at 5% is probably not going to be that substantial, but shortly behind that there
are some changes and some added costs. We don't want to wait until the last
moment to do the work.
Reid: No, but you know pervious concrete does have to be replaced. Snow plows will
really rip it up and some of these other things that we talked about doing from the
public infrastructure, those trees that filter the water... of course that's on our backs,
not the private developer's backs. Again, I would... again, I don't have a vote on this
except tomorrow night and I would really caution you to go slow on it. Thanks.
Mayor: Irish, I share some of Council Member Reid's concerns, especially about this
cost which is substantial being added on to a budget that we have hoped would allow
us to keep the tax rate where it is ... not have to raise the tax rate. This is a big amount
and I guess we are being asked to make this decision before we know all the
repercussions. Now, Council Member Reid has talked about maintenance costs to
the development community. I am a little more concerned about the cost to our
taxpayers and what I would want to get a better sense of is something more than
speculation as to whether this might off set some of the TMDL costs. I would like to
know whether it really would or not. I probably won't support it tomorrow night
because there are a lot of unanswered questions still, but I would like to know all
right, if there is more maintenance required, people are notoriously bad at
maintenance. So, whenever you heap additional costs into the maintenance category,
it doesn't tend to get done or get done properly. So what I can't tell from the staff
report is, all right, let's say a developer puts in pervious surfaces in the parking lot and
let's say they have a roof garden, which I like. Theoretically, I think those are neat
ideas. But what happens when these things aren't maintained. Does it make it worse
for the environment, because I have got to assume they won't be maintained properly
because people don't maintain their septic systems in the rural areas, etcetera and it
does make it worse for the environment, but I don't get a sense that we really have a
good sense of the answers to those questions. I think theoretically this has some
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really attractive aspects, but in this economy this cost worries me and I just got done
telling someone I met with recently who had another proposal that was going to cost
a fraction of this, that we would really have to sell Council on the idea of adding on
any additional obligations in the budget because our desire is to keep the tax rate
steady, not raise it for several more years and if we begin adding things like this in,
that is going to be very difficult to accomplish. So, I don't yet have enough
information for me to support this. I also don't know ... I guess what you are planning
to do with this resolution is simply have the watershed committee study it a little bit
more and this is not a budget vote at this time.
Grandfield: That's correct.
Mayor: But, I am nervous about voting for something that definitely will have a
significant impact on the budget when we don't yet know all the repercussions. So, I
think it is good work. I think this is all desirable, but as with everything these things
need to be affordable and I'm not sure $160,000 is affordable in the upcoming budget.
I'll still think about it, but there are a lot of answers I would need.
Reid: I think you are absolutely ... I did not mean to indicate that I was concerned
strictly about applicants, but you are absolutely correct about the impact on the
taxpayers of this kind of expenditure, so I just want to go on record to support you on
that.
Butler: I think the whole idea is that this will save the taxpayer just a boatload of
money over a few years. If we want to make the town have less negative impact on
the environment and pay less money in order to remediate those issues, then we are
going to have to put in ... when you look at the size of the numbers that it is liable to
cost us to reduce the pollutants that we put into the Potomac river, this is a tiny, tiny
fraction of what the potential payback would be so a small amount of investment for
such an enormous gain I think especially of something that is liable to be inevitable
sooner or later... probably sooner rather than later, I think it is an obvious choice.
Grandfield: I think the watershed committee's thought was that in the first year that
they could save money by not getting a consultant, by doing the work themselves in
identifying these ordinance changes that need to happen and by organizing the
stakeholders and sort of gathering the resources that we have here in our own
community. Saving the town money in the first place.
Hammler: Along the lines of what I think we are all saying, at least based on some of
the initial questions that were raised, if the additional research in fact includes what I
think John has already identified, which is when it comes to Council you would have
already researched what are the options for essentially ensuring that there is minimal
or no direct bottom line impact to the taxpayers. That would be part of...you know it
could even be physically addressed as an amendment in the resolution tomorrow. It
should not preclude us from moving forward so that we can in fact get that
information.
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Reid: Well, maybe there should be something in this, if there is no objection. I
would suggest that the watershed committee look at what the county has been doing
because, again, one of the things that the watershed committee came up with was the
creek valley buffer ordinance. We put that on hold because ... I remember Irish's
report... because the county put the Chesapeake Bay protection ordinance on hold and
that is not going to go anywhere at all with the county. I think that should be part of
the resolution to have the watershed committee look at what the county is considering
or plans to do or does not plan to do so that we could be consistent. If nobody has a
problem with that...
Butler: I don't really care what the county is doing and Leesburg is a much denser
area than the vast majority of the county so it is completely apples to oranges as far as
I am concerned. You can care what the county does and you can vote however you
want, but the county is doing one thing... that doesn't mean...
Reid: I think they should be looking at other counties too. I don't know... does
Fairfax have low impact development on the regs? Does Prince William?
Hammler: Ken, I think we have already addressed that, whether it is ICMA or other
municipalities that have started looking at this. I think we have already all said that.
I'm not saying don't look at the county if they are doing something worthy...
Reid: The problem is the way the resolution is worded, they are just going to go off
and build a case to do this, see?
Butler: Sure, if you build a case, we do it. If you can't build a case, we don't do it
Reid: I am sure they will build a case to do it. That's what's going to happen. It's
not an impartial inquiry... let's put it that way.
Mayor: I guess my question... because Dave does raise a very good point. I am not
getting a sense from the staff report that we have any guarantee that by the time we
have to vote on the budget that we will have enough information to know whether
there will be a net savings to our taxpayers or a net increase in the burden on them. I
don't know that we have any hard evidence out there from other jurisdictions on
whether they have been able to avoid the costs of the TMDL regulations because they
implemented this low impact design. I suspect since we will be voting on the budget
in just a few months, we probably won't have that evidence and that's what concerns
me. I wish I could say yes, this will save us money. My fear is we will spend this
money and then we will also spend the same amount we would have had to spend
anyway to meet those total maximum daily load requirements. So, it's all speculative
and that's what worries me from the financial aspect.
Reid: Okay, if I remember Mike Rohlband's presentation, there are two things that
we have to reduce. Is it phosphorus and what else?
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Grandfield: Phosphorus and nitrogen.
Reid: Nitrogen. Now, if I remember correctly he said street sweeping wouldn't really
do much. It would only be like 4 -5 %. But isn't most of it from stormwater from the
streets... or is it from the parking lots, the private development... see 1 think that's
something... did the committee look at Mike's report on the TMDLs?
Grandfield: Yes. I don't mean to represent this as the solution to TMDLs because
this is coming from the watershed committee because it does more for you than just
help on the TMDLs, it helps on our streams which already are ... in your report from
September you saw a list of $10 million of capital projects that have been done that
involve stream stabilization or stormwater management. If you reduce the amount of
run off that is going into your streams, you are also going to save on your capital
projects... your drainage projects.
Reid: See, but most of it is going to come from the town's expenditure. I don't
believe that the Chesapeake bay ordinance or the TMDL mandate requires a private
property owner who has already had an impervious parking lot with water running all
over it to do anything retroactively. This is all for new development. This is all for
new development. The town is pretty much built out at this point. Most of the
impact from TMDLs is from our street network and the existing parking lots, private
and public. And the private parking lots, I believe don't have to do any mitigation.
Really the onus is on us to keep it from going into the stormwater system.
Grandfield: The requirement is that the town meet the standards. The requirement is
on the town. One of the things that the town can do is set the stage for development
as it goes and progresses through many years to have better development so that there
is less running off from parking lots and streets and...
Reid: But I think if the county is not going to do it or whatever competing
jurisdiction then it puts us at a competitive disadvantage if somebody wants to come
in with a project so I think you are right, Madam Mayor. This has broader
implications than just the low impact development. It does have tax and other
implications, so I think we ought to tread very slowly on this.
Mayor: Irish, thank you very much for all your hard work.
b. Water System Disinfection By- Product Study Report
Aref Etemadi: Good evening, Madam Mayor and members of Council. I am here
tonight to give you all an update on the status of where we have been and where we
are going. If you all may recall last year about this time ... maybe a little bit earlier, a
proposal was put in front of you all for beginning the chloramination process at the
water plant and due to the concerns that were expressed by the council at that time,
we were asked to look at alternatives and the alternatives that we looked at has been
the addition of sulfuric acid to the water in order to combat the that exist.
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Beginning about early part of this year, we began adding acid to the water.
Throughout the spring and summer results have been very favorable and they show
excellent results as far as achievement of the new limits that have been set by the state.
What we are here to ask you guys to allow us to proceed with the addition of acid for
the time being. There is no guarantee that the rules may not even get more stringent
because our industry here recently has been continually evolving as technology
advances and new regulations... limits are being cut in half and half so who knows
what pharmaceuticals might bring to the picture in the future and ... right now, the
addition I ask that what we started last year has shown almost a 50% reduction in our
total trihalomethane formation in the system. One of the drawbacks of acid is some
corrosivity issues at the water plant. If you remember the memo that I sent the early
part of this year, I had some pictures of some of our basins, so there will be some
capital costs to recoat these basins in order to prevent them from further deterioration.
Also, the use of acid adds to our flushing a little bit more than the chloramination
does. In the memo, I have commented... given you all some rough figures about how
much we expect to use in flushing. These are based on the figures that we have
obtained this year so far so ... right now, we have stopped adding acid because as the
weather gets cold and water temperatures rise, the formation of trihalomethanes is not
a serious issue and we are able to meet the regulations without addition of acid but
then again come spring and summer we will start having the gases. So, based on the
results ... you know, favorable results and the numbers are meeting the regulations, we
would ask that we continue this practice until a future date when we may have to look
at other options. Chloramination is one of the widely used methods in the state of
Virginia. Maryland has not used this, believe it or not, but Virginia is very much in
favor of using it. All of our neighbors, Fairfax, Loudoun, and City of Fairfax
eventually will all convert and use chloramination as a means of combating
disinfection byproducts. I don't want to close the door completely on that option
because if they further reduce the limits in the future, you may have to look at those
options but for the foreseeable future, it looks like the current studies that we did and
they were all done in house, by the way ... we did not use consultants. We began the
process and all the testing was done by the state laboratories, so it has been successful
and we would like to ask you alls permission to proceed with the current practices
until such time as I will forward you any new regulations that may be coming up.
Martinez: When you talk about increased flushing, I am assuming that you are
talking about all the water lines having to be flushed over a certain amount of time.
How much more frequently do you have to do it?
Etemadi: We have certain areas that we call our stage II locations. One of them is
the very end at the Marion Dupont Equine Medical Center because it is the farthest
point in our system and is a dead end system and does not loop anywhere else. The
Bolen Park area has been one of our problem areas right now because there are no
facilities out there right now. Some of the other locations, like Heritage High School
is a dead end system. In the summer time since the schools are closed it does cause us
a little bit of an issue and have to flush. At times we have flushed about '/2 million
gallons a week just to maintain the residuals and get the fresh water into the system.
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Martinez: Where does the water go?
Etemadi: If there is a sewer system available near by, we discharge into the sewers,
the sanitary sewers. If not, we dechlorinate and discharge to the storm drainage
system and eventually to the streams.
Martinez: So, the water that is being flushed is not suitable for irrigation?
Etemadi: It is and we have been trying to get a meeting going with Morven Park and
we haven't been able to yet to get the proper agent to call us back. We are thinking of
maybe selling some of the flush water to them because they water the grass from the
wells and they have a certain limit. They are violating that limit so they are kind of
interested to look at other alternatives. We would like to help them and make some
money off of it, because otherwise it is lost for everybody, unfortunately.
Martinez: Now, I could understand you being able to do that with the water at Phil
Bolen Park, but what about the water that comes out at Morven Park and Heritage?
Etemadi: If they have such a need...
Martinez: Could you pump and haul it? Would that make it profitable?
Etemadi: No, because you have to flush it at such a high velocity. If you have to do
it to a tanker truck and then wait ... it takes
Martinez: So, we are not just talking about just opening up ... you are adding pressure
to the water.
Etemadi: You have to get that water movement to be able to ... that is something we
would love to be able to utilize and not waste it. At least we should be looking at that
option.
Martinez: It would be kind of nice to have it available for common areas and
something like that for planting trees and stuff.
Hammler: Thanks, Are£ I appreciate the report. Are there any negative impacts that
you did not highlight that we should be aware of?
Etemadi: Of using acid?
Hammler: Yes.
Etemadi: Corrosion in some of the structures at the water plant are some of the
concerns. Some of the basins are old and have been there since the 80s. They are not
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coated. So we are watching those closely and we are planning on recoating them
with material that will withstand the use of acid.
Hammler: Just conceptually, I know we are doing it all in house. I appreciate that
from a budgetary perspective, but to the extent that we need to make sure that we are
monitoring any sort of adverse impacts that we may not even be thinking of relative to
health implications ... whatever it may be ... I think there needs to be some level of
oversight to anticipate...
Etemadi: These are approved methods. The state has endorsed these methods.
These are known chemicals. You can use ultraviolet disinfection, but of course the
cost is going to be so enormous that you can't, but ... acid
Hammler: Just a normal course of action, maybe if you are so busy doing the job,
you may not be keeping your eye on some things that may need some additional
oversight.
Etemadi: Adding ammonia for chloramination would have been the preferred option
for us, but right now the cost of acid is low so as far as expenditures, it is very
profitable for us. If the cost of acid goes up that might have an impact on our decision
also. As far as the safety, it is a known method of treatment and it has been endorsed
by the state.
Hammler: And our standards are keeping an eye on the corrosion levels and other
things that might have other adverse effects. Just finally a comment because wherever
there may be revenue, we need to be aggressive so I would hope John or someone in
Parks and Rec could help get a phone call back from the Bolen folks.
Butler: I can't think of any other questions, other than you are not looking for a new
resolution from us, right?
Etemadi: This was just more informative to basically update you on what we have
done so far and the results of it and continue practicing this method for the time
being.
Butler: I seem to remember a rather rousing discussion last year.
Wells: I think had the results come back differently, the idea was this test would
occur over the course of a year. Had we not been able to achieve the level of success
in meeting the requirements, we might have had to use a different method and I think
that would have required some sort of vote by council since basically the direction we
had was try it this way and if that works, that's good. We are basically saying it's
working and that's the better method of two based on the discussion we had last time.
It is something, as Aref mentions, because of the complex nature of this ... making sure
we are meeting the requirements, cost implications, the fact that we are working with
some pretty involved chemicals, this is something that is watched very closely. If we
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find that there is either a wide change in the cost of providing this type of effort or we
aren't able to achieve these type of reductions, then we would need to come back.
Basically, we are doing okay and the plan that you all set in motion is working.
Etemadi: The price of chemical is very volatile and to keep it from one year to the
next year, 70% increase in certain chemicals, under 50% increase in others. It's a
game to keep up with the industry. It has been very difficult. The guys are doing
their research and they try to do it as the cheapest possible cost.
Reid: I don't have any questions. I think that we are proceeding in the right manner.
Council Member Dunn arrived at 8.-15p. m.
Dunn: Great presentation, thank you. As always.
Mayor: Aref, just one question. If we are facing corrosion problems at the plant, are
homeowners also going to be facing corrosion problems in their pipes?
Etemadi: At the plant, it's dealing with the pH, because once we add the acid we
have to...in order to fight the precursors, we have to make it so acidic to destroy the
components. That's where you get your most corrosion problems. Once it comes out
to the system, then we will have adjusted the pH back up to the acceptable levels so
that the customers will not have an issue out there.
Mayor: Good news. Thank you very much.
C. Airport Rules and Regulations
Kaj Dentler: This item for you ... this is an effort that the Airport Commission and
staff has been working over the years. The last, or the current version was approved
back in 1986. At different times over the years, various progress was made but no
final approved change was made. This proposal that is in front of you has been
reviewed and endorsed by the FAA, Department of Aviation, the Town Attorney's
office, and it has been shared with all the tenants at the airport including the Fixed
Base Operators and has been reviewed and officially endorsed by the Airport
Commission as well. There are three main changes or points to mention to you. One
is on disabled/ derelict aircraft. It provides now a mechanism for the airport staff to
be able to remove planes that are not fly worthy or not being maintained after a
period of 30 days. We don't have that ability today. The second item is providing
permits on a temporary basis for businesses such as mechanics. Kind of known as
mechanics through the fence operations. In the current situation, all maintenance
repairs are supposed to be done by the FBOs, but it doesn't really happen. If you are
a plane owner and you want someone else to do it that occurs, but we have no
mechanism to deal with that. So, the Commission evaluated that and worked with
staff. We now have a process which we would issue a permit to such businesses to do
that and the FBOs are aware of that and it's something that although they would
prefer not to have that, they know it goes on and they know they can't service
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everyone at the same time, so it's kind of like we live with it. The last change is
dealing with fixed base operators, providing clarifications on fixed base operators.
Basically everyone at the airport is considered an FBO. There are some full service
and there are some specialty groups, etc, but that allows us to match up with the
Town Code even though the true definition of an FBO in the aviation world is only
those in our case, Landmark and ProJet. Once the Town Code goes through a
revision down the road, then we will be able to make some changes to the code which
allows us to make a more clear change here in the regulations, but for today to match
up with the Town Code, we have taken this approach. Those are the main changes
that go into details that you have. The airport commission chair is with me as my
back up and he has most of the knowledge. I don't pretend that I do. Those are the
main changes. If you are okay with it, then we will go forward tomorrow night for
approval and getting it done.
Martinez: No questions.
Hammler: Seems like clear sailing to me, or whatever the metaphor for airplanes.
Just as a side question, where are we and how are we progressing with the customs
facility?
Dennis Boykin: Can I brief you on that tomorrow night?
Hammler: Okay, great! Thank you for coming, Dennis.
Butler: I think it's a good point. I am interested in that too. The EDC is very
interested in that. Other than that, no other questions.
Reid: Why 30 years?
Boykin: Mr. Axeman did an outstanding job of getting the first version done in late
2003. Remember, he preceded me as chair and he took this on as his project. If you
will remember correctly in about that time period there came a man by the name of
Jeff Sachs. He gave us a presentation. For the next four years, all we could focus on
was that and it just fell by the wayside. Steve identified it and said we gotta fix this.
We got a committee together, worked on it, I helped him with it. Dwight worked on
it. Also sorts of work got done on it and all of a sudden, it was November 2004, there
was a Washington Business Journal article and from that point forward through 2008,
we were swamped. Then we took it back up again and said we got to get it done.
Reid: But it hasn't been a major impact on the operations?
Dentler: No, we have been able to work through it.
Boykin: The three things that Kaj mentioned have continually come up time and
again. So, we said those are the things that we have got to get after to fix.
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Reid: And they were fixed since 1986?
Dentler: We have just worked with what we had.
Reid: Very good. Thanks.
Dunn: No questions. I did find that certificate, though, Kaj. Used it last Saturday
and my son got to take the stick.
Dentler: He had a good time?
Dunn: When he asked and he said after about 500 feet in the air, and he said do you
want to take the stick, and I'm like .... you gave it to my nine - year -old? Okay. Then
he said can I make a sharp turn. He said, well you have to ask your dad. I said no,
no sharp turns. He enjoyed it. It was a good time to be had by all.
Hammler: Well, was this his prize he won?
Dentler: He won the prize.
Hammler: I remember that.
Dunn: When I first got it, I thought it was just another one of those cheap lobbying
things that we get for Council members. I didn't know it was a prize. It was good.
Mayor: Dennis, thanks. We will see you tomorrow.
d. Speeding /Traffic Safety Issues — Battlefield /Town -wide
Wells: Madam Mayor and Council Members, if you look at the green sheet that was
handed out in your folder, you will see highlighted a number of actions that the staff
both from a transportation office and public works as well as our police department
are focusing on as we look at, as I think what is an emerging and growing issue, that
we have heard from Council Members as well as from the public in terms of traffic
safety and speeding. Council had asked kind of comprehensively what's the package,
how are we approaching this. I have identified a number of areas, very distinct and
discrete things that are part of an overall strategy of making the goal of making our
roadways safe and efficient... provide for the efficient flow of traffic through Leesburg
in both a safe and effective way. I will just hit these very quickly and then answer any
questions you might have because I think what you are seeing ... it's not just simply
put out an officer with a radar gun. I think there is a lot more to it in terms of public
education. I think there is personal responsibility. There is signage. There are capital
projects. There is a wide range of effort out there as well as the effort with
enforcement. There are things we could do before enforcement. There are things we
can do hopefully to make the roads operate in such a way that people may not
necessarily feel they need to go faster or drive in an unsafe manner. So, that being
said we are also looking not just at moving vehicles through town but also making
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sure that our pedestrian ways are safe. Council has taken an action to implement a
bike and pedestrian plan. This speaks to that and certainly broader implementation of
that effort to support that so that we are looking at more than just vehicles itself. But
again, identifiable, well marked pedestrian crosswalks. We will be looking at double
checking all of our crosswalks, making sure they are clearly marked but all of the
markings on the street are clear and that there is adequate and proper signage in place
for all of those. One of the areas... first areas we are looking at as far as our bike /ped
plan is adding some share the road signs. We are looking at a couple of those going
up fairly soon, if they are not already up on King Street. I don't want to make it
sound like that's the whole bike /ped plan, but that is certainly a beginning effort that
will be more aggressive that we will see in other parts of town as well as other efforts
in the overall bike /ped plan. One of the areas that does provide some very discrete
and effective tools in terms of reducing traffic speeds is the use of the talk back signs.
We are looking at making some additional purchases of those added bases around
town so that they can be moved around. You can have 10 devices, but if you have 30
pedestals, they can obviously occupy different places. Sometimes having them show
up in different places unexpectedly can be very effective at doing it. We certainly
monitor that and that may guide us in further actions as far as how we deploy our
police forces.
In talking to the Chief of Police, one other device that is very important are the
message board signs. I think for those of us who have been around, we talk about the
speed trailer. The speed trailer is 15 years old and that technology is a bit dated.
What we have found is more effective is a combination of... the new version of the
speed trailer also allows for a message in addition to your speed to go out and we are
finding that as we are telling residents that we residents that we are stricter
enforcement, monitoring speeds, buckle up, whatever the message of the day might
be. We are finding that is having some positive impact based on the monitoring of
traffic speeds past those signs. So, we are looking at additional purchase of those.
What they allow is to be in multiple places obviously at one time. Aggressive traffic
monitoring with vehicle counters and on street cameras. What we are trying to do in
many areas is at this point trying to get ahead of the problems before the accident
leads us to the intersection or a particular area in the road. What staff is doing is a
more aggressive effort at monitoring traffic counts. For example, as different sections
of Battlefield Parkway have opened over the past year, we have been monitoring
traffic counts to see what implications that is having on not only Catoctin Circle,
Battlefield and other areas around the area. Bringing that information back to the
SRTC. We also have a larger array of on street cameras. We are looking at some
added use of technology. I don't want to divulge where those cameras are at right
now...
Reid: Speeding?
Wells: Yes, speeding.
Reid: That's allowed under State law?
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Irby: We can't issue tickets.
Wells: They don't issue tickets, but they tell us where we should be. So, anyway
some of those proactive elements I think will be very positive, but they also tell us
maybe we need to do something different with those counts. Maybe that tells us that
a traffic light or maybe a four way stop, whatever the traffic control mechanism might
need to be in a particular area. Certainly providing adequate budgets for signage,
crosswalks, talk back signs and making sure we have an adequate budget each year,
but we did have it. That's not necessarily additional money, but just making sure that
we don't pull back in those areas.
Another one, I'm just going to read this and I'm not going to say anything more about
it, but you will understand what it says when I read it. Police enforcement of traffic
laws to the degree supported by courts. That is something that is becoming a greater
challenge for us. Again, I will be happy to talk off line about that. One of the areas
that the Chief talked about a while back is the use of training of residents in
neighborhoods to use radar guns so that they can monitor traffic, send a note to the
police department. They wouldn't be issuing tickets, but they would allow for a
greater presence and a greater awareness that speeding is occurring in neighborhoods.
We need to relaunch that effort. I think it would be fair to say and I think the Chief
would agree that we haven't gotten the type of response that we thought that was
going to provide at that time based on what we thought we were hearing from the
community. I think given the current time and situation, it might be time to kind of
rebrand and reintroduce that. I think a greater effort in that area could lead to some
positive results. Staying on track and continuing our capital project program. We
know we have funding now for the Sycolin Flyover from the state, Battlefield
Parkway, the final section. Finishing those sections I think finally will overcome a
variety of hurdles dealing with the right turn lanes at Edwards Ferry and the bypass.
All of those help with more orderly traffic flow. There are some maps I can bring at a
future meeting, if you would like to continue the discussion. They can highlight
where some of our traffic problems are at from an accident perspective and again,
trying to make sure we are matching up our capital project dollars with those areas.
Right now, the area that doesn't match up to the degree that it probably needs to is
Edwards Ferry and the Bypass. While the turn lanes are going to be helpful, that is
the area where we have more accidents now than any other intersection in town.
That overpass or flyover, whatever the final product might be, I think has been noted
by Council as now the new priority based on those other two areas that have been
dealt with and we are going to need to look at some effort to get state assistance to
help with that area so it will continue to be a problem. The other area to highlight
and this comes from the Chief and others in the area dealing with traffic safety and
speeding ... and that is the messages that the Council puts out. Whether that is during
your comment time at a Council meeting. Whether that is press releases we put out
on behalf of the Council ... the more we have a dialogue of what we expect in our
community in terms of traffic safety and again, back to personal responsibility, we are
talking about individuals complying with the law. It is not that we don't know what
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the speed limit is in different locations, whether we chose to follow it. It's whether we
chose to stop at the traffic light. There are a lot of things in here that are being
designed to create a behavior that should be following the rules of the road, as we all
learned in driver ed class when we were a lot younger. Those ... it's listed last, but it
may be one of the more important elements which is to raise that awareness. At the
Council level, what do we need to do to work with the schools with a preset message
in our school systems. Anyway possible, I think. You match those up with some of
the other discrete and broader items and I think you have got a program that will
help. But there are going to be issues that we need to deal with as neighborhood
issues come up, but that's the broader strategy that we are following at this time.
Martinez: I just think this is all good. I mean my concern is I know we have the
Standing Residential Traffic Committee and I talked with John about figuring out a
way that we change the charter of what they do to have them incorporate oversight of
some of these issues. I think it is really important that when we start talking about the
talk back signs, where they are at, the traffic monitoring, even a place to come back
and talk about speed limits. We need a commission to take over and look over some
of these things for us. Because I sure as heck don't want to get all of these emails for
all the different things and have to be distracted from what we normally do.
Hammler: Well, John, thank you. And I appreciated all of Marty's time as well. I
know we had an initial conversation. We were getting a number of calls. I know Mr.
and Mrs. Rebrocca over in the Northeast quadrant where we live were very concerned
certainly about the significant changes we are seeing on Battlefield with the opening
of Tuscarora and a number of other changes. I think you have listed some incredibly
important initiatives that I know we will put in a road map and we will look at kind of
the month by month progress that we are making in the ways to communicate the
progress and feedback to the community the great results that we are seeing. I don't
think it is an exaggeration to say that aggressive driving and the issues that we are
dealing with traffic is the number one problem in the town of Leesburg, certainly
based on the feedback we are getting from a quality of life perspective of citizens, the
safety issues that we are confronting. So, I guess I could comment on more of a
tactical basis, but just some of the initial feedback as well as some comments based on
some of the things I have heard from citizens. An example, you are mentioning
awareness and how to set the tone, if you will, for someone whether you are
driving ... you are coming into Leesburg, whether you are coming as a cut through
commuter, or you live here, having an ability to set the tone the second your car is
coming into town in any quadrant, how best to do that. Whether you might do
something creative relative to a couple of key entryways with banners. I don't profess
to have any specific ideas of what that could or should say, but I will say as an aside
example, I loved what the downtown businesses did with their centerfold advertising,
personalizing each business and not only having it seen once in a newspaper, but
having that message carry out to when you go downtown you literally see the
business owner and what they are doing. That concept of how we can personalize the
fact that welcome, go slow and enjoy our beautiful town. Share the road concepts.
Or something along the lines of Leesburg, where bikes and pedestrians roam
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free ... help us protect them. We need to find some creative, you know, positive ways
to say something in a unique way that people will remember that may cause them to
change their behavior. Again, it's behavioral changes that are tougher to deal with
legislatively. We can, you know, talk about personal responsibility and sermons all
day long, but I think we are going to have to find creative marketing hooks to really
set that tone everywhere possible, even on more of a stick perspective. You know,
signs, or ways of saying thank you for speeding, you are keeping our residential tax
rate low. I bring that up because someone at a VML meeting once mentioned that
one of the best ways they are making money as a municipality is the speed traps
entering their town. I will not name which town it is; however, they have a
reputation and people slow down. Whether it is a carrot and a stick, hopefully it is
more a carrot positive message, but...
Martinez: I can just see you going postal with a radar gun...
Hammler: Speaking of radar guns, I think the concept of having neighborhood
empowerment is critical. Because in as much as we have this idea of training people,
I think people have no idea of what that means. How to use a radar gun, how long
the training will take. What is that message? Are they really going to make a
difference? How does that tie into the fact that our local community police officers
can make that part of what they are doing in the neighborhoods, but that could come
back to the measurement. What are we doing by month, by quadrant? Kind of
volunteer management in trying to increase the number of empowered individuals
who are involved in this process. I could go on and on, but I think the key is that we
know this is going to be an ongoing program. We are going to find a way that it is
going to be part of your manager's report where we can identify the things that we
have done whether we are adding an additional bike lane. Where is the next bike
lane going to go? Are we realizing what positive impact has that additional feedback
sign had? I think those are wonderful. Something very tactical, that I think we could
also consider, particularly given a couple of places where it seems like we have had,
certainly those coming from... seems like further distances, drivers speed between
lights on the bypass and then they end up slowing down again ... is the flashing yellow
lights when you are alerted that there is another light coming back up soon. We
could think about adding that, not only between Battlefield and Edwards Ferry on the
bypass, but I did specifically get approached by someone who had been mentioning
the safety issues coming into town heading west right before you are about to hit the
outlets, it seems like when traffic begins backing up, people don't have as much notice
that they are about to hit a light, so another one of these flashing yellow lights on
Route 7 before you even get into town ... that was another specific type of feedback
mechanism. So, I won't go on any further tonight, but I do think social media,
communication, volunteer management by quadrant and the things that we will be
doing on a month by month basis is where we are measuring progress.
Butler: I will take perhaps a slightly different spin, although I agree with everything
Council Member Hammler said. First a little nit... the Sycolin overpass, not a flyover.
The only reason I point that out...
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Wells: I haven't trained myself to use the right term yet.
Butler: Because calling it an overpass tends to set people's expectations that there are
going to be no connections to the bypass. I think as far as the tone, I think it's good to
set expectations on the different kinds of roads because we do have two competing
interests. There are some people who would just love everybody except themselves to
slow down to five miles an hour, but the vast majority of people in town are all trying
to get from point A to point B as quickly as they can because they are going from
shopping to baseball to soccer to back and forth to work and this and that, so one of
the things that we spend an awful lot of money on it to try to get people from point A
to point B as quickly as possible. We open up a bypass, Battlefield Parkway, and the
point is to get people from A to B, it's not to slow people down to five miles an hour.
So, there are some roads that are designed to have people drive slowly and there are
some roads that are designed to get people from point A to point B quickly and so
setting people's expectations on some of those, I think is important. To that end, I
think the single biggest thing we could do for traffic in Leesburg is to get the $35
million for the Edwards Ferry /Bypass. You know, Council Member Reid and I
commissioned an infamous study at the SRTC to go and look at that and they found
that was the single biggest thing that would decrease traffic through downtown, for
instance, is to get that. Because then people who are going through town would find
it very easy to go through right on the bypass and zip through and they would lose
incentive to go down something like Battlefield Parkway, which would take longer,
but now, as often times, it's like having people cut down Dry Mill Road to get to
Purcellville, right? If we had the climbing lane, no one would bother to do that
because it would be faster to just take the route that we want them to take. I also find
it interesting that with the radar guns, we have an awful lot more people complaining
about traffic in the neighborhood than we do people who are willing to take some
time and do something about it themselves. I also, after talking with the police, found
that the single biggest thing that came out of the radar guns isn't that certain people
slow down, but that so many people using the radar guns realize that people aren't
going nearly as fast as they thought they were. I think that also helps set expectations.
Now, given all that, I don't want to take completely the same tone. I certainly
understand that there are people going faster than they should and all of these things
are excellent ideas and I like the idea of having some kind of banner or something on
the way into town to say ... provide some recurring messages that change and things
like that hey you are not entering a speedway. You are entering a residential
community and treat it appropriately. Thanks.
Reid: Thank you very much for this report and I think Katie and Dave were the
ones ... oh, Marty. Good job, Marty. The thing is though when it comes to Battlefield
Parkway, I know that some of you will disagree with me, I am very sensitive to the
needs of the folks whose homes are right near Battlefield Parkway, okay? Now, we
have a school zone in Tavistock and Beauregard. We have lights at Tavistock Drive,
we have lights at Kincaid, Tavistock, and we have lights at Sycolin Road. So, I don't
hear too many complaints about speeding on Battlefield Parkway from folks in
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Beauregard or from the Kincaid townhouses; however, we do get complaints from
folks in Edwards Landing and in Potomac Crossing about the blind spot and the
speeding there. The jury is still out on what's going to happen when people,
especially Maryland commuters start realizing that they can take Battlefield Parkway
versus staying on the bypass. These folks are not necessarily going to respect the
speed limit. The SRTC, I think, did a pretty good job of looking ... I think they put in
a push button activated cross walk and other ... they looked at other devices but I still
believe that there is nothing wrong with us lowering the speed limit on that stretch
along the Exeter section, because the Exeter section, again you have houses that
literally almost front Battlefield Parkway. But the thing that would do the best, I
think for the Exeter Community, is that traffic light at Catoctin Circle and Battlefield.
I think it would do a lot of good. I know it may not meet the warrants...
Hammler: Or Plaza. We haven't decided where.
Reid: Or Plaza, I know that they may not meet the warrants, but from what I
understand is that you don't get state money if it does not meet the warrants. You
just have got to pay for it.
Butler: I bet Catoctin might now.
Reid: Well, it's really interesting, I mean ... you know when you discuss this ... traffic
study, I don't know if we have done anything additional, Calvin, but the last
information that we had which is at least two years old was that even with Catoctin
Circle opening at North Street, it did not meet the warrants, so I think based on that
we pushed it off several years out so maybe a new study needs to be done, but I do
believe that there is nothing wrong with spending that kind of money to essentially
deal with traffic control in these residential neighborhoods. I don't feel that is a
problem at all. I think getting new driver feedback trailers, getting new smart trailers
would be a great idea because I think we had two and one broke down and one was
damaged or it was vandalized or something like that. I think we only have one now.
Those things are good. The feedback signs I think are of course the greatest in the
world. I think we have them on Battlefield and Exeter ... well, not Exeter, but...
Wells: Battlefield. We have one in Exeter on Battlefield.
Reid: But really folks, consider the speed limit issue. I really believe that. On the
other end of town, it is a much different situation, you have a commercial area in the
Oaklawn area. At least maybe from Miller to the Greenway maybe something you
folks may want to consider at some point, so that's my drift. Thanks.
Dunn: Well, a couple of things. One, the ... I'd like to see where we rate regionally
for safety. It is easy to say that we need all these things, but I know that for example
when I hear on the news pedestrian hit, plug in Montgomery County. You always
hear about Montgomery County is where pedestrians get hit. Well, I'd like to know
where Leesburg actually is safety wise. We can say that we need 1000 more signs and
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that is going to make us more safe. Is it? Is it really needed? I know that as I have
traveled other communities, especially in other states and for Virginia being as
particular, and Loudoun County, and Leesburg on signage, we have a lot of signs and
many of the signs are public signs, not private signs. Our streets are actually fairly
cluttered with public signs. I will travel to other states and they don't have nearly the
amount of signs that we have telling people where they need to be going. So, I would
like to see, John, where we are as far as safety is concerned. Where are we as far as
pedestrian safety? Where are we as far as accidents in the region? Not that I am
opposed, obviously, to more safety measures, but you have 10 initiatives listed here
and half of them involve more signs. Are the signs really going to do it? If you really
want to go out and do some signs, I have some unique ideas for you. For example,
maybe we should do like Katie brought up the signs with people standing out front of
a business... maybe we should do those large cutouts of policemen with radar guns.
You can save money, just have cut out policemen with radar guns. Maybe that's an
idea. Or, if we can do talk back signs, and I don't even know if they have this, but
they actually can drive along the road and recognize for violators of traffic and
parking laws. They can recognize who that person is. If you are going to give
feedback, why don't you say slow down, Mr. Wells. People will slow down,
especially Mr. Wells.
Reid: That is going to disturb the neighbors to hear that going on in the middle of the
night.
Dunn: It doesn't have to be audible. You just have to put it there... slow down Mrs.
Smith.
Hammler: Now, you can definitely put somebody's face and name up there.
Butler: I would like to see it say slow down, Mr. Wells and nice argyle sweater you
have.
Reid: Nice elf outfit.
Dunn: We talk about getting messages out. You all remember the give a hoot, don't
pollute. Maybe we should have a new message, give a hoot, don't speed. Whatever.
Hammler: The don't mess with Texas equivalent, yeah.
Dunn: I don't know if necessarily getting more signs is the answer. I would really
like to see just how much this is really needed. But the other thing is my biggest issue
that I see the most violations of is pedestrian law. Pedestrians have no clue about
what they are supposed to be doing other than they think they can just walk right out
in front of moving vehicles. I don't know how many times as I was driving around
DC this weekend, Alexandria, Springfield, that there were people that just felt that
white stripes means go ahead regardless of cars and the biggest thing I see is
pedestrians who just feel free to walk out there and that's not correct. If you can get
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back with us on the real need for it, that would be helpful. I would also just ask that
we throw a little caution to the fact that half of these items are requiring signage and
look at if maybe there are some things we can replace some signage instead of just
adding to the signage and really see if it is needed. Again, if our safety standards in
Leesburg are well above, or our accident rates are well below the regional average
then maybe we should really look at some of the necessity for some of these things.
But anyway, thank you for the information.
Mayor: I like ... kind of like Katie's idea of banners. I find I respond mostly to signs
like we love our children, please help us keep them safe. But I do think that the
surprise element, if you keep seeing the same sign day after day after day, you will
block it out, but if suddenly there is a speed feedback sign someplace where you
haven't seen it before you do tend to pay more attention. So, the idea of 30 poles and
10 signs, moving them around I think is a very good approach. I do tend to agree
with Tom ... how do we rate? I know we haven't recently been in Loudoun's top ten
most dangerous intersections. I don't think we have had any of our intersections be
among the top ten county -wide. I don't know how Loudoun rates with the rest of the
region.
Wells: I think there are a couple of measures as to what we are looking at. Certainly,
accidents... pedestrian accidents, vehicular accidents ... I think one of the other issues
though... we have measures for... it's a different type of issue and that's the whole
issue of speeding and aggressive driving. Those may not necessarily turn into an
accident, but they certainly do create problems for our residents, especially as we are
dealing with people passing through. But I recognize the importance... we can talk
about what the problem is, but it is good to put a number to it or try to articulate what
is the problem we are trying to solve and to the degree we can measure it, we have a
good understanding if these things are working if we see those numbers go down.
Point is well taken and we will try to put some quantitative numbers to this. I know
the police department's annual report of incidents will be coming out and they will be
speaking to accidents and traffic numbers. We do have some back up, but I think
putting it in a context of other jurisdictions ... we can put something together so we
can follow along.
2. Additions to Future Council Meetings
Reid: I'd like to know if folks would be willing to support this resolution for
tomorrow night in support of all faiths and understanding and condemning acts of
intolerance. That's how staff wrote it up.
Mayor: I would support it.
Reid: For discussion?
Mayor: I would support it for a vote tomorrow night, but we can get a sense of
Council.
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Reid: We can wordsmith it if folks have any problems with it. I didn't write it.
Hammler: So, just in terms of the rule setting ... is it just that the majority of Council
decides tonight whether we are going to put it on for a vote ... like put it on the
Consent agenda, for instance, tomorrow?
Reid: No, not consent, necessarily. If people don't want it on consent.
Hammler: But it would be so straight forward, we probably could put it on consent.
Reid: Yes, it's just basically to sort of try to step up to the plate and show our support
as town mothers and fathers, you know, leaders of the community to try to encourage
better dialogue.
Hammler: Can we determine if we have that support?
Reid: Do you support it for tomorrow night?
Hammler: Well, ultimately, it depends on where the majority of Council is.
Reid: But we need four votes tonight. We need four hands up tonight, if not, I have
to bring it up under suspension tomorrow and one person could veto it.
Butler: I am not crazy about the idea. I just think that waiting until this whole
dispute with the county is ... I'm not good.
Reid: The resolution is not controversial, folks. It is just basically in support of all
faiths and understanding. Why would you not be ... Tom?
Dunn: I'm for it. This is another one of those I love butterflies and flowers
resolutions that we have passed many times before. It is just saying that we support
the mandates and beliefs of the first amendment that are already established. There is
nothing in here controversial. There is nothing going on with the county. It is really
just saying we are for free speech, but yet we are not for things that violate the rights
of others. That's in the constitution. Anyone who doesn't want to support it ... they
must have an issue somewhere else. I'm all for it.
Mayor: We will bring it up tomorrow night. I don't know that there are four...
Reid: But he will veto it. He doesn't want to discuss it. He is the one vote against it.
Mayor: You have a right ... to bring it up. If you believe in the resolution, you have a
right to bring it up.
Reid: But what's the point. I'm just surprised that we can't even agree tonight just to
put it on the agenda and then we can turn it down tomorrow.
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Dunn: You don't have four people?
Reid: Have you read it, Katie?
Mayor: I am in favor of it.
Dunn: I thought Marry said he was.
Mayor: Marry didn't say anything.
Reid: No, he's not.
Dunn: I thought he said he was.
Reid: I'm very disappointed, folks. I mean it is a very, very simple thing. To try to
bring some calm to the community right before this whole controversy. I don't...
Dunn: I don't know what the controversy is. I must have been driving into
downtown DC too much or something.
Hammler: It was actually in part of the packet that we received.
Reid: So, you don't want to bring it up tomorrow?
Hammler: I have never said anything, Ken. You must not be listening.
Reid: I just don't understand it.
Dunn: What is the controversy?
Reid: I don't see what ... we can wordsmith it, Dave. If there are certain things you
don't like in there...
Dunn: I am missing something.
Mayor: Okay, it's the skeleton Santa on the cross which was deeply offensive to the
Christian community ... many members of the community.
Reid: It was offensive to a lot of Jews too.
Mayor: Absolutely, and people with young children. Very offensive to them. This
resolution would simply say that the Town Council believes in the first amendment
but also tolerance to all religious faiths and does not ... we oppose slander. We oppose
the attempt to denigrate other religious faiths.
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Reid: And I didn't write it, Katie. Who wrote it, John?
Wells: A member of staff.
Reid: Yeah, one of your staff members wrote it.
Dunn: I didn't know that's what this was geared towards. It just looks like one of
those standard resolutions although I will say that this weekend when I was getting
sandwiches for my sons and I over at Puccio's I drove by and they were shooting
Santa in effigy or whatever you want to call it. There was a group of people putting
on quite a good show but you know what? My religion far exceeds any silly thing
they can do out there. Again, to me this is a butterflies and flowers...
Reid: My last meeting tomorrow night, I guess I'll try to get suspension of the rules.
I don't see why this is a controversy. Under the rules, Dave, that you helped
revise ... I am sorry I couldn't advertise this two weeks ago, but I had no idea that
someone was going to be pushing this on the lawn. What prompted me was the
Mayor's email, which I thought was very good that she sent to the Board of
Supervisors talking about how the first amendment, even in this room, in their
chambers they wouldn't allow somebody to get up there and start attacking
somebody. That's all this does.
Dunn: Personally, I don't see how this is related to the Courthouse.
Hammler: Ken, when you become a Board of Supervisor's member, this will be in
your purview.
Reid: Katie, I thought we would step up to the plate as the Leesburg Town Council
and just tell the world that we don't support attacks on people. This doesn't go into
specifics. It doesn't mention the crucified Santa or anything else. It is a simple,
noncontroversial resolution. We had one to support the Korean community after
Virginia Tech. We have done these before. I am just ... you know.
Dunn: Ken, it goes to people's core beliefs and obviously there are folks here that
don't believe this, so ... I don't ... I didn't catch the connection between crucifying
Santa and this resolution.
Reid: Well, no. That's that prompted it and the Mayor's email to the Board of
Supervisors, also got me thinking that maybe we as the town should step up to the
plate and do something because the county didn't.
Mayor: See how it goes tomorrow.
Reid: If I don't have four nods tonight, then I will have to bring it up under
suspension tomorrow, but Dave or Marry will probably veto it.
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Martinez: I wish you would stop that. Because you are making bad assumptions on
what I am going to do. Just because I haven't voiced an opinion doesn't mean I don't
have one and I have not voiced it before. Do not make assumptions of what I am
going to do.
Reid: Dave is going to veto it or you will veto it.
Dunn: We will see what happens tomorrow night.
Mayor: Nobody said they are going to veto it.
Reid: Just that it's easier to do it with four votes ... four nods tonight than to bring it
up tomorrow when anybody could just get up...
Dunn: You are saying that it could be vetoed because...
Reid: We need unanimous consent to bring it up tomorrow night.
Dunn: All right. I see what you are saying. To suspend the rules.
Mayor: Any other additions to future Council Meetings?
Butler: I was surprised in a negative way that apparently the state corporation
commission is now charging people who have solar systems at their houses or
businesses. It could be about $60 per month that you are being charged.
Mayor: Holy moly!
Butler: It is only ... if you just have a solar system, that is not the case, but if you want
to send excess power into the grid you get a hook up then they are going to charge
you. This is not something that went through the general assembly. This is
something that they went in and asked for ... this particular rate to be imposed and the
state corporation commission agreed and said that was fine.
Mayor: Who went in? Alternate energy companies?
Butler: Dominion. Dominion wanted to charge people and the SCC said sure. I was
wondering if we might discuss it and potentially have a resolution that this is the
wrong direction. It is a disincentivized... disincentivize may or may not be a word,
but it is providing a disincentive for people to do what we think is the right thing.
Mayor: Oh, my gosh.
Hammler: So we should add this to the next agenda? You are not going to suspend
the rules tomorrow.
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Butler: That's not something that is that time critical. Whenever John feels that it fits
into the schedule, I am fine with it. I just wanted to get it into the list.
3. Closed Session
Wells: Based on consultation with the town attorney, we don't believe that items A
and B are necessary this evening and I don't know that you are ready for C. I'll leave
that up to you all.
Hammler: I think that would be a great way to start the new year. Really ready to set
the right...
Mayor: Sorry, you are so patient and we are always so late.
Martinez: So, no closed sessions?
Irby: Madam Mayor, I have a hand out that will fit nicely with the staff report that I
was thinking that Council Members could read. I have talked to many of you already
and if you have any questions, you can call me. But, it really sets out ... takes care of
one of the discussions in the staff memo.
4. Adjournment
The eeting was adjourned at 9:04 p.m.
Clerk of o it
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