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HomeMy Public PortalAbout2015_tcwsmin0622 Council Work Session June 22, 2015 Council Chambers, 25 West Market Street, 7:30 p.m. Mayor Kristen C. Umstattd presiding. Council Members Present: Kelly Burk, David Butler, Thomas Dunn, II, Suzanne D. Fox, Katie Sheldon Hammler, and Mayor Umstattd. Council Members Absent: Council Member Martinez. Staff Present: Town Manager Kaj Dentler, Deputy Town Manager Keith Markel, Town Attorney Barbara Notar, Director of Finance and Administrative Services Clark Case, Director of Public Works Tom Mason, Chief of Police Joseph Price, Senior Management Analyst Lisa Haley, Senior Management Analyst Jason Cournoyer, Transportation Engineer Calvin Grow and Clerk of Council Lee Ann Green. AGENDA ITEMS 1. Work Session Items for Discussion a. Fire and Rescue Funding Process Richard Wolfe, Leesburg Fire Company, gave a presentation explaining the algorithm that is used to allocate funding dollars amongst Fire and Rescue companies in Loudoun County. Key Points: • Algorithm was developed to meet the funding allocation needs of the county's fire and rescue companies. • Algorithm divides the county's funding between the companies in Loudoun according to budgetary needs. • If the town reduces or eliminates funding, it affects all companies throughout the county as the algorithm will make up for some of the funds by reallocating them throughout the system. • At current County funding levels, this would cause an increase in the system funding gap of 8%. Council Comments/Questions: • Dunn: Has there been any analysis of what it would cost if the fire companies were full time employees of the town? Wolfe: That was the other <inaudible> was in part to look at valuation of the actual—what volunteers bring to the table. If I recall correctly, it was about$33 million a year in value. So across the county, $6 million a year to gain $33 million. So, better than 5:1 return. • Dunn: What do counties like Fairfax and Prince William do? As far as the employees —are they also paid and volunteer? Brower: Combination of career staff and volunteers that are more swayed towards the career side. They do have operational volunteers in several of their facilities that are still run by the volunteer corporations. I don't know what the contribution amount is for those 1 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 volunteer companies down there. I don't have that information—that is something we would have to research. • Dunn: Did a lot of departments across the country still have volunteer basis—I imagine in more rural areas there are. Wolfe: Definitely in more rural areas, obviously. In big metropolitan areas, significantly more career and less volunteer, I think. We are sort of out on the edge now in terms of we are a combination system that comes into play. • Dunn: The algorithms are based on the current funding guidelines by the county. I would think that if Leesburg were to look at having the county pick up the funding that we are not paying, then we would have to look at some other type of funding guidelines to ensure that those gaps did not happen. Wolfe: That begs the question, as I mentioned earlier, there are other situations — at some point, the million dollars in proffer that Ashburn is getting will go away. When that goes away, how do we respond to that? I am going to encourage the county to do it the way that I have proposed, which is if there are any replacement funds—if there is a loss of income for that particular company— if their funding gap goes up— we started at a point where there was evidence of non-county income that was material for some companies—the contribution that you guys make is material. If we were to start in a different world, where there was no non-county income sources, there wouldn't be a funding gap calculation— it would just be an expense calculation. But, the algorithm is equipped to handle that. The question is whether or not the county wants to go in and replace what two specific company's lost dollars. That sort of sets a baseline that may or may not make sense 10 years down the road in terms of service delivery and that's why I'm against it. • Dunn: The proffers from Ashburn—there is still development going on throughout the county. Taking into account, those other development's proffers? Wolfe: I don't know. I know there is some additional proffer funds that are under discussion. I don't know. I don't pay attention to that, because that's their benefit, not mine. I have plenty of other things to do. Other: They aren't eligible for proffers any longer. I believe the state law was enacted several years ago to stop the fire proffers. I can't tell you that exact year, but it seems like it has been close to ten years though. • Dunn: Do we know what the total funding number is that you need this year? What is the total funding needed? If the county were to cover everything, what would that number be? Wolfe: So, this is asking about fiscal year 2016 —what is the gap plus what the county has provided us for that year. I don't know those 21Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 numbers off the top of my head because I'm not running that group this year. • Dunn: What is that number? Put the boots back on your feet and off the side of the street. Wolfe: If I had to throw a number out there, it would probably be about$7.5 million. • Dunn: $7.5 and we are currently at 6? Wolfe: Just under $7. • Dunn: So, you are talking about another$500,000 is all you need from the county? Wolfe: Another$500-800,000. Again, that's speculative based on numbers... • Dunn: That's if the county paid it all. So, what Leesburg contributes plus all your other fundraising efforts —it seems like it is more than $500,000. Wolfe: So, I have been given the numbers for fiscal year '16. Fiscal year '15 shows 9.3 million/9.4 million. Those are the expenses. The unfunded gap is what is relevant, though. Last year, the unfunded gap was $682,000 and county contribution was $6.3 million. We are looking at$7.1. • Dunn: Okay, so total funding today—theoretically, total is $7.1 is what you need? Wolfe: $7.1 based on last year's numbers. Yes, sir. • Dunn: And right now, you are getting how much from the county? $6.3? Wolfe: $6.3 million was the contribution last and this year. • Dunn: Okay, so $800,000 more dollars from the county if the county funded it all. Okay. And what, Mr. Hemstreet, do you know what $800,000 does to the county tax rate? Hemstreet: Each penny is about $7.5 million. • Dunn: Each Penny? So, a tenth of a penny. Okay. You don't have that on you tonight? I'm joking. Other: Just to clarify, the deficit you are talking about assumes continued full funding by Leesburg, so if Leesburg were to back it's contribution out, to solve for that, it would not be a dollar for dollar match. • Dunn: Well, that's what I am trying to get at. Let's take the county funds that you get. Just the county funds. All other fundraising efforts that you have and other contributions. What do you need? See, you have the county funds here and then you have everything else. What is everything else and how much more do you need? It sounds like you need$7.1 —are we clear on that? $7.1 million is your operating expenses. The county provides you how much? Wolfe: That's actually operating expenses are a little over$9 million. The net of the town funding, proffers, ATL funds, etc., add up all of 3 ' Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 those income sources, we get down to the $7.1 million and the county provides $6.3 million. • Dunn: Okay, so the county is at 6.3 and your net operating or whole operating, whatever is 9.4? Wolfe: We are about 9.3-9.4, yes. • Dunn: Okay. So, we are talking about$3 million short, if you were relying solely on County funds. Wolfe: If we were relying solely on County funds, that's correct. • Dunn: Taking what you said—I think you said Chairman York said you should be training, not fundraising, so he took away all responsibilities you all have for having to raise funds, get funds from the towns —I think you said Neersville, proffer funds—but that is not counted in the county funds, correct? Wolfe: The Neersville escrow account has been closed. That escrow account has already been distributed over the last two years. • Dunn: Okay, so there is a gap of about$3 million. So, it's about 4/10 of a cent on the county's tax rate. • Butler: Just to let you know that it is about$18 on an average house of every residence in the county. I only have one question. I think the presentation was great and this email by Glenn that came out about 2 o'clock—this was fantastic. It answered almost all the questions that I have. I think what I have left is really more for Kaj. Our Fire and Rescue budget for fiscal 2016 is $645,000 but companies 1 and 13 according to all of this get$527,000. Where is the other$127-128 thousand go? Staff answer: That is the pass through grant. Wolfe: Whether you give us funds or not, that money has to be passed through. That is funds you receive from the state that are allocated to us. • Butler: Got it. Okay, so we would be more than happy to give you those funds and it costs our taxpayers nothing other than part of their state taxes, which would be much less than we pay for ourselves. Okay, I think that's the only question I have other than that. I think the information was just exactly what we needed. • Burk: I appreciate the information that you brought here tonight and is Glenn here, who wrote that? Thank you very much because we were talking before the meeting and we were like this is so well written, it explains everything. It really cut down on my questions. So, good job. I did have just a couple. One is I want,just for the public, to realize that when you are talking about Company 1, you are talking about the fire company. When you are talking about Company 13, we are talking about Rescue. Just so that the public understands, we are talking about both groups. What is the most expensive—what is the biggest expense that you have? 4IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 Wolfe: Maintaining the apparatus, far and away. Yes. Obviously, there is the cost of the apparatus first and foremost. We incur that infrequently and then the maintenance on an annual basis. • Burk: So, the volunteer companies—do they still raise money for various apparatus? Wolfe: We don't like we used to—where we say "Fill the boot so we can buy an engine". Rather, when we go through fundraising activities, a majority of those funds still go into support operational activities, but we don't have those dedicated fundraisers —Help us build a building, type of activities anymore. • Burk: So, you don't purchase apparatus very often any longer? Wolfe: The engines last 10 years, so we keep them as front line pieces for 10 years. Ambulances 5-7 years. Skinner: Our company is 5 years. • Burk: So, your biggest expense is replacing them? Brower: So, you figure that in five years, $250,000 per ambulance. So in ten years, we spend $500,000 and they spend $5, 6, 700,000. That's our average. • Burk: And the Leesburg companies, both fire and rescue, they do things that other companies do not do in regard to the town. What are some of those things that you all do that other companies might not do because they are not part of the town? Could you give me an example of some stuff that you go above and beyond? Wolfe: If you recall, I sent a letter early on in the process—it was, I believe mid-March, that detailed some of that. One of the things, in fact, that I authorized as lieutenant last year with Leesburg Fire when we had the flooding event on the bypass. I had an engine and a tanker out there and we moved about 250,000 gallons of water so we could free up the drain so that we could open up the bypass before rush hour traffic started. It is those kinds of things, because we are part of the community that we feel obligated to do. You know, it is our community—we are going to do that. I don't think you would see that from other companies that did not have the connection that we do to the town. • Burk: Are there other things that you do? I know that was just one example, but I know there are other things that you do that are above and beyond. Wolfe: The Airshow. We were able to secure the crash truck that you guys needed last year that saved considerable funds for the town because of our relationship with <inaudible>. We do the parades. We do public ED events. We do standby events on behalf of the town. We do the fire works and multiple events. Other: If I could just offer, it might not seem like above and beyond, but the single most important thing that these two companies do is staff their firehouses. I don't mean to make that sound small, but we all across this country, the crisis of volunteers staffing their stations is in 51Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 epic proportions. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is dealing with this at a state level because it is such a critical mass. We have reporters calling here asking how are you so successful in providing a combination service when we are struggling so mightily. I will tell you the single most important thing they do—because the single most expensive thing that we can do is provide that service—the human beings. Because, apparatus does not respond itself. So, there are things that they do above and beyond, but the single most important thing that they do is staff the apparatus. They staff their ambulances and their fire engines very consistently and extraordinarily successfully. • Burk: And does that play into your algorithm, at all? That you are saving the town and county a lot of money by volunteering? Wolfe: No, it does not. We don't include in the algorithm. I guess it does indirectly in the sense that we have a different service delivery requirement than does Round Hill, so we incur and have higher variable operating costs than, for example, Purcellville. So, from that perspective, indirectly, it does come into the algorithm, but from the perspective of what is the value of my time, what's the value of Brad's time, Glenn's time...what is the value that we contribute. That was mentioned in the context as a proxy when we looked at how much we are saving the count in terms of manpower—that$33 million. But, it is a very different component and it is not easy to quantify. • Burk: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate all this information and I most certainly appreciate the letter and the chart that you sent following. Thank you very much. • Hammler: Thank you for the report, Mr. Wolfe. Thank you all so much for being here, we really appreciate it. Mr. Hemstreet, appreciate it knowing how busy you are. Appreciate you being here as well. A couple of tactical questions—just a little back ground in term of just my original questions that I asked during the budget session, but on the page where it says town contributions, is Leesburg the only town that contributes as part of this income equation that offsets or are there other towns around the county that do as well? Wolfe: Yes, there are other. The spreadsheet and its detail will illustrate each company. There are other companies—Purcellville receives an annual contribution of about $40,000 from the town. • Hammier: So, is there a consistent, say per capita contribution that is requested from the towns, or is that consistent across other counties within Virginia where there is a volunteer system in place, that there is a request for per capita contributions for towns. Wolfe: That I do not know. I can tell you that within this county, there is no consistency. I have got the town contributions for FY 15 — you guys got the spreadsheet as well. Purcellville Fire was $50,114 last year. Middleburg received$4500, Ashburn, I don't know where they received this, but they claim to have received$3687 and Purcellville Rescue received $40,000. Hamilton has received$1,000. 6IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 • Hammler: That would just be good reference information just so that we could understand how policies are created and even how we communicate to our citizens. I think the other part of that is, I think at some point the Uran Fund was used to actually fund our contribution. At least, I was reading some answers to some budget questions that came in today, but it would be useful to sort of look at what the history has been over time in terms of what the source of contribution was and how we got to where we are today. Obviously, the critical thing is, you know, we appreciate that you are a core component of what is one of the most important things that we provide as government together with you, is securing public safety. There is no doubt about that. The things that we grapple with up here is the fact that, you know, we are a town and we pay taxes on top of Loudoun County and I think what Tom may have been trying to figure out is okay, if it is a 0.4 cents to the county in terms of a possible increase in taxes versus that our contribution is a penny on our tax rate, then that's amortized across 45,000 people versus the population of Loudoun County and we are also Loudoun County taxpayers. You know, those are the things that we as Council members grapple with as it relates to, you know, double taxation hypothetical issues. But the reason why ultimately just looking at that line item in this year's budget again, in our binders where we have line by line contributions, is you know the amount that we provide is bigger than the entire budgets of other departments that we scrutinize. So, you know, you pretty much just pass through and because we know how important public safety is and what you do we really had to debate this as a council, so that is just sort of a general comment that I think that I appreciate the fact that you were willing to consider having a Council member liaison on your board so that we can be more active and engaged on an ongoing basis. I think that is important and I know that it is a comment from a Council member, I think saying Oh, I'm sorry that we put you through this because Council wasn't going to do anything anyway. You are going to get your money and we are wasting your time, but the reason why it was very relevant, particularly this year, is the issue that we have already vetted, which is why we didn't touch anything this year, that with the emergency medical services transport reimbursement program, it is estimated that an additional $4.5 million was going to come into the system. And ultimately, I know that we fund an ambulance, for example, but the reimbursement goes back to - 25% goes back to the county, so you know they are contributing, but they are also going to get reimbursed 25% and then you all divvy up the rest, but the town will not get any of that money back, so I think that moving forward, you know that you are going to be keeping a close eye on that but it is really important, you know, for our taxpayers—obviously very much appreciate everything that you do—given that we are not fully going to be reimbursed that this be revisited when you see how much money is 7IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 coming into that. So, again, I don't know why de-funding was ever sort of part of the discussion. I don't think that was ever something that we were just going to say oh, Calvin go deal with this, but I do think it is really important that some of the change in dynamics with your budget, that we have an ongoing interactive, participatory conversation and that we anticipate it well in advance before the next budget cycle so that we can work with the county. Wolfe: I will let Chief tell you, but I think that we would be more than willing to sort of revisit this as the EMS billing gets up and we start to see the results of it. I will say that from the perspective of Company 1, we are not going to see much of an impact with the EMS billing except in the context of how it results in the redistribution of the unfunded gap because we are not a transport agency and the EMS billing is to refund or to provide a funding source to transport agencies. That's where a majority of the money goes. I think my company will see $25 or$35 an EMS call, when we show up and assist. That is not going to cover the fuel. • Hammler: So, perhaps mid-year we should get back together and/or as a Council with your direction we will vote on who the liaison is and that person can keep us up to date, but again certainly well before the county gets into its discussions, you know, we can help you, we hope, not that we are always very successful, but try to get more funding from the county. We certainly would engage in that. Wolfe: If I could just speak to the issue of our EMS transport reimbursement, because I think it is important to talk about that. First and foremost, EMS billing is not actually going to go live until July 6. It has been a year of working with the Federal government to get authorization to actually do EMS billing and for the regulatory requirements. The other thing is that in reality what we anticipate is there is going to be at least a 90 to 120 lag on actually revenue arriving. Even if we initiate our first EMS bill to insurance only, we would not expect to start seeing regular revenue for 90 to 120 days and we would not be able to evaluate the true impact of EMS billing for a year so we know exactly what that impact is. I'm very sensitive to the fact that it is likely to extend beyond the budget preparations for Fiscal Year 17— very sensitive to that; however, I don't want to be unrealistic about how much information we are going to have. I don't want to promise you that we are going to have... • Hammler: I don't expect you to have that information. Just as you get it, as you are learning—keep us apprised and the policy associated with, you know, what the county is going to do. If it is 25%, if that goes back to you again...how does that offset the town's... Wolfe: It is supposed to cover the cost of billing itself, the billing activity and the associated software licenses and etc. • Fox: Thank you for the power point, it does explain a lot to me. I learned a lot from this and from some of the emails that I got. I did 8IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 have one question—basically a clarifying question. The town contributes —I see that you take the town's contribution and put it into your income. What effect does that have on—help me understand what effect that has on company 1 and company 13 specifically and how it relates to the rest of the companies. Wolfe: It increases our income— our non-county income, which reduces, assuming the expenses are fixed against that—it reduces our funding gap which then has the effect of county funds that are provided to the system being distributed around the county to fund those that require more. So, if you take it—let's go back to the first scenario, which is the town decides to defund company 1. If the town defunds company 1, my funding gap goes from 7.3 to 10.3 percent and so it has about a 44 percent change to my funding gap as a percentage, which means that I absorb more of the funds that the county is contributing to the system because I have a higher share of the funding gap that is used to allocate those county funds. Other: Unfortunately, we are in a world where we are continually underfunded. So, that means if I absorb more of those funds, everybody else gets less. If you flip that scenario around, if I absorb less of those funds, there are more funds available for others in the system. • Fox: If I am understanding correctly, the town contribution offsets the county and benefits mostly—the funds that come from the town benefit mostly company 1 and company 13, am I understanding correctly? Wolfe: Absolutely. • Fox: And so, those two companies get less funding from the county as a result? Wolfe: Yes. • Mayor: President Wolfe, I really appreciate this. This is a great presentation and Glenn Kaupin, it was a superb letter. About a year ago, when this issue came up and then died temporarily, the perception, I think among some folks up here was that no other locality—no other town—contributed, but you clarified pretty quickly that Purcellville certainly puts a fair amount of money in. It sounds like a relatively small amount, but they are a very small town relative to Leesburg and they are putting in almost as much as we are per capita and if you look at what percentage of the differential, they are covering a higher percentage of their non-county funds, I believe than we on this town council are covering in Leesburg given their expenses. Purcellville's are significantly less. It would be a little more than half of what yours are in Leesburg. I am personally not interested in defunding fire and rescue in Leesburg. Some of the other things you do, because I've seen it is we have had homes hit by tornados. You guys have come in and covered up roofs where walls have been pushed away from the rest of the house. There are a lot of little things you do on an individual level that don't always make headlines, but I think are extremely important for the families that are impacted. I don't have any more questions. You guys 91Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 have done a great job with the data you have provided and the explanation, so I appreciate it. b. Battlefield Parkway and Route 15 North Bypass —Potential Congestion Relief Improvements Keith Markel gave a brief update on the results of meetings with County and VDOT staff to look at solutions for the traffic congestion on the Rt. 15 North Bypass. Key Points: • By 4 p.m. heavy back ups develop on the Rt. 15 Bypass which originate at the light at Raspberry Falls/White's Ferry. By 5 p.m. the back ups extend down to Edwards Ferry Road. • Collateral back ups occur on Battlefield Parkway. • Possible ways to alleviate some back up on Battlefield are: o Dedicated right turn lane from westbound Battlefield to northbound Bypass. o Extending and elongating the left turn lane on northbound Bypass to westbound Battlefield. • This does not look at the entire interchange, but smaller short term fixes. • Could create a northbound stacking lane that could still be used after the construction of the interchange. Council Comments/Questions: • Hammler: I had an email, having asked that question already. It seemed logical to me, why don't we do that and I was told that would actually—I can pull up the email— it was already decided by staff that would not be a good idea, because it would exacerbate the problem. Now I am confused why we just spent$9,000 on getting an answer for, when we have determined that actually would not be a solution. Staff answer: That is one theory inside Town Staff who are looking at it. There is a concern that having that third lane—essentially elongating that dedicated left turn far enough back that folks would start taking it as a through lane—riding that up. We have all seen that on interstates where people get into that lane and zoom up knowing that most people are going to follow the law and not use that as a through lane. They will use the turn lane and then merge in at the very last moment. Chief Price is here tonight. He can also talk to that as well. They had their enforcement of folks doing just that on Battlefield, whether going down the left lane of Battlefield knowing full well that they want to go north on 15 and at the last minute merge over and make that illegal right turn onto Rt. 15. That's one of the concerns here. If you give folks too much leeway in that turn lane, that they will abuse that. So, that was where staff's concern was. It is still going to be part of the discussion to see if it looks <inaudible> enough, maybe it is 101 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 worth taking that risk or we looked at doing some sort of physical g g p Y obstruction. Do you put the posts and bollard system? Do you double line it, so it gives people a little bit more reminder that they cannot merge back out of that lane. So, there were a few physical things that you could do there to give people cues to stay in that lane if they are make that left turn. • Burk: But that's what you are studying. You are looking at all of that. Staff answer: That's correct. So, that's what we will be looking at over the summer months. A correction to the staff report—we did just find out that we were afraid that the traffic count had not taken place before school lets out—you never want to do traffic counts during the summer months. We did learn that VDOT is sharing data they collected as part of the Edwards Ferry Study, so they will be sharing with VHP. They will be using that throughout the summer months to develop their report. The hope there is that they will be able to stick to the timeline and they will be delivering this in September or October. • Mayor: Keith, I'd like to interrupt you a little bit and just ask Council members —what we didn't show you is that at 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock things are still pretty much okay and then at 4 o'clock, we get major congestion. My observation on the ground is that our back ups are starting earlier than that and at 2 it is starting to get pretty bad, but maybe I have just observed it on a couple of anomalous days. Are any other Council Members observing an earlier start to this congestion or do you agree—and Tom, you live up in that area. Do you agree that there is not much of a problem until about 4 p.m.? • Dunn: Well, it is actually getting to the point that cars are backing up numerous times of the day from 15 Battlefield east going into the Balls Bluff neighborhood. It is not unmanageable. You can usually clear the intersection in one light. But, if I could, I would encourage us to maybe hear the rest of what staff was suggesting before we start pouring too many questions in because I got a lot of things I'd like to go over, but I'd like to hear what staff has. I will be happy to give you all my whole analysis of that area—you are right—I live it every day so, but I'd like to hear what all staff is suggesting. • Mayor: Are you taking into consideration the fact that an awful lot of cars if they are headed west on Battlefield logically might turn right on the bypass. In other words, they are going through the intersection and turning right on business 15 and going up past Tuscarora and that is stacking up every day as well. Does staff believe if you try to solve this by adding that additional sort of lane to cut up north on 15 bypass, that would stop that traffic that is going all the way across the bypass to 15 business? Staff answer: I will defer to the experts here. I know that human nature is like water follows the past of least resistance and folks get really smart to traffic patterns, as we know. We have found a lot of interesting work arounds. Sean Brody when he is out there working on 11 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 the signals can really tell because he is out there so much just anecdotally has related to me how he has seen people move through there and follow the cars in a zig zag pattern where they go up Rt. 15 and zig around on Battlefield to try to find the short cuts. Calvin Grow: I want to mention that what we have done is we have put a couple of cameras up there. What we are trying to do is trying to allow people going east and west bound that are being caught now through the intersection. People are sitting in the intersection when the light changes and changes a whole cycle and they can't get through. What we have done is we have tried to set up some cameras where we are trying to move some of that traffic northbound so there is not that dead time. You set there and there is no body moving on Battlefield. What we have done is we have tried to adjust the traffic signals to allow people east and west on Battlefield. It has worked a little bit. We will continue to tweak it, but the answer to your question about the right turn lane, again, you know there is a lot of people who are going to business 15. Is this going to help? I think that what we did before, we used a program that looks more at the signalized intersections. This program looks at this whole corridor and not just the intersection. I think what is going to happen is we will be able to determine where this right turn lane, this long right turn lane will help us to keep these people from cutting through the town using 15. It is something we are going to look at as part of the whole corridor with this simulation. • Dunn: From my observations, and piggyback on what Calvin said, is from what I have seen the biggest issue is folks not clearing the intersection. Whether they are coming from Exeter to go north, or they are coming from 15, they are not able to clear the intersection because what happens is even if someone obeys the law, stops at the line because they don't want to block the intersection, the person in the right turn lane coming from Battlefield to turn north, they take advantage of that person, even though they shouldn't be turning because technically they are at a stop and that is oncoming traffic. That oncoming traffic is being polite and stopping because they have to ensure they have cleared the intersection when the light changes. When you are sitting in stop and go traffic, you are not sure when that is. But when a person that makes that right hand turn, what it did was that person starts to creep out before the light turns, they are stacking up. So, I think one of the things we could do small in size is look at—I know you want to have free flow of traffic, but I was thinking the other thing you could consider doing is putting a no right turn light there. In other words, right turn x, right turn green. I am sure you have got... Staff answer: That has been brought up. That is a good point. It is being looked at. • Dunn: Because you have to stop those people who are wanting to turn right and allow the traffic to flow through like it is supposed to. You are putting, also, the don't the intersection. Well, they are not blocking 121 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 the intersection. You have it on Battlefield, but you really have to have the sign over on 15. The other problem is coming from Exeter, you have the same thing. The line of traffic coming from that direction, they are trying to get through the intersection, but again there is so much traffic blocked up right at 15 and Battlefield, that they can't flow through, the light turns, and all of a sudden its gridlock. You've got people just squeezing through, going through gaps in traffic. It is just a mess. You've got one of those things that are as best as you can stop the people from going into the intersection, allow traffic to flow through like it is. There are certain times of the day you can have—I'm not saying all the time you need a no turn on red at that corner. There is no lane to turn anyway. There is no merge lane on that right hand turn onto 15. Usually you have got the shoulder so that you are not the first car waiting to go across the bypass, the second car is not going to turn right because it is pretty rough. I think there is a curb there too that pretty much prevents you from turning right on red, so I would recommend a light saying at certain times of the day, right turn x, right turn green that allows them to go ahead and turn on red or not. That would allow the free flow of traffic going north from the bypass. It should also allow—you've got— any idea on how many cars you see stacking up over there trying to turn north? I'd say maybe heavy times, eight, ten. • Hammler: Are you talking about backing up towards your house? • Dunn: No, backing up heading your direction wanting to turn north on 15 from Exeter. • Hammler: That is not the big part of the problem because a lot of people now know how to—they are all trying to get to Maryland. Now they know the back way around Leesburg. You can't take the Bypass from 7, so they are backing up on your end and naturally, I think most of the problem you can see from my end that is backed up at the outlets and backed up to Balls Bluff. • Dunn: The other one, too, that is backing up that your map didn't show. In fact, I had to call you one day because I thought it was so much fun that I was backed up probably about a 20-30 car back up on Battlefield trying to turn right on to 15 business because you've got the schools letting out, two schools letting out and the traffic is starting to hit. And it is just as you showed the map, it is backing up past Battlefield. Again, you've got the issue of people being able to turn right on red and when they do they are not clearing the intersection as much but I think that is one of the biggest things. If you can get that intersection to stay clear through the cycle— allow the free flow of traffic, I think your plan to do this, there may be some air there. I think the cost on that is going to be pretty high. The other thing I think is — we mentioned it—you mentioned it or Calvin did—is that folks are going to figure that out. What I see happening is now this will back up and continue on Battlefield. It is just going to increase the stacking 13 I Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 more because people are going to try to get home one car faster than before. But, a couple of other things that I—let's see, we've talked about don't block the intersection. Have you done the sign yet that says don't block the intersection on 15 bypass? Headed north. I haven't seen it because I don't go there. I know better. The thing about your turn here in red, I would say too, Katie, us two living there, the locals know not to go. We are not going to go on this road during the heavy traffic. So, I think you are right. Putting those turn lanes there—if someone tries to use that to get around the traffic, I think what is going to happen is I want to get one car ahead home faster, now I have a quicker lane to turn left. Now I can get onto 15 business sooner or I am going to go ahead and turn right here and make a U-turn at Balls Bluff Road and go that direction—anyway I can. I just don't see the locals using that lane as much. Maybe turning right, you might get some, but I don't see folks doing that. In fact, many times if I'm in downtown, I'm cutting through Lowenbach to get home because there is no other way. What about the idea of a right merge lane not cutting across where the cloverleaf is going, but what about a merge lane right here at Battlelfield and 15 North? In other words, if you, where it says Bypass, what if there is a merge lane there that allowed for right only traffic. Right now, you've got two lanes. It's a right turn lane --- Staff answer: Heading northbound? • Dunn: Yeah, so coming from Battlefield, if you now bring your lines down if you had a merge lane that was turning to the .... Staff answer: That allowed cars to come up into the other lane to merge into the two? • Dunn: Yeah, maybe if that were—much like we did over by the Sheetz. Again, most people that are in that right lane who are stacking up are wanting to turn right. There are very few people— once you figure out this is the wrong lane to be in if you want to go through. There are a good number of people that do go through that intersection that, yes, do end up on 15 north business. And then, the other question I had is for the chief. What were the officers stopping folks for at that intersection. Were they stopping them for not clearing the intersection? There was a time there, and I don't know how many days it was, because again when it gets bad there, I just don't even go near that intersection because I know I can't go anywhere. They go up just north of the intersection and they were pulling them over. What was that for? Chief: The special assignment was put out there in May and is continuing to a lesser degree during this month was vehicles that are not in the right lane going through the interchange at Battlefield and Bypass, but making a right hand turn from other than the right lane. In that period, 20 odd days for three hours a day, two to three officers— we don't have the staffing to do that all the time. We wrote about 100 citations. What our officers saw was getting to the Mayor's question, once the water figured out what was going on, they proceeded across 14IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 Battlefield to North King and then north. Other crossed Battlefield and made a U-turn at Fieldstone, came back and then made a left turn onto the Bypass. • Dunn: Okay, so to your point, Katie—most of the folks aren't going to unless they have to. You said you looked at the idea of—thank you, chief—you looked at the idea of the no-turn concept, whatever that might be. What is staff's opinion on that? Staff answer: It is being considered now as part of this study. It will come back, essentially as part of the recommendations. • Dunn: What were you looking at for a time frame, as Kaj said, for the small ones? Do we have an order of what those might be and how soon? Staff answer: I think that is what the study is going to come back to us with and present to you all this fall—so within the September/October time frame. We will come back and hopefully be able to look and see what they think will give us the best bang for the buck, knowing that we don't want to go through years of study and millions of dollars to try to fund things that can help it, but find those things—and it might just be a series of very small wins that are actually going make something <inaudible>, but that would be this fall. • Dunn: I'm just wondering if there were any other options. There is also—I haven't seen it in Exeter as much but Balls Bluff Road is getting blocked by the traffic. Folks are not letting people get out. Usually when it is me, they get an angry look much like Council gets every Monday and Tuesday. No, they are starting to block that and I have seen that get as far backed up as far as the school. Actually, have you noticed the back up seems to be heavier on Thursdays and not Fridays because I think people take a long weekend and they are not traffic as much on Friday as Thursdays. Thursdays seem to be the worst traffic. The last thing is, I would love to see if we could get some trial things done over the summer. To me, the simplest thing would be the no turn on red. That seems to be the easiest, least expensive. Staff answer: That is something we can talk about with staff. We know that our signal technician here on staff is working to try to create the signaling so that— and Calvin was talking about this earlier—so that we have this free flow of traffic knowing that when traffic is backing up in this direction, that the signal is smart enough to realize that. When it knows that no more cars can head north without just blocking the box, that it is going to cycle through and stop the light. It is going to give the red 15 and open up Battlefield. That only works if this continues to crawl forward and create that capacity and space. We need that capacity so this lane can make that turn that you were talking about. If you don't have the capacity, then the box blocks up with Battlefield traffic. So, with the combination of our new smarter signal there with the no-turn on red that prevents them from filling in that void and 15IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 actually allowing us to create capacity. That combination might give us a win. • Dunn: Because if you create that void and you don't stop the people turning on red... Staff answer: It will fill itself right up. • Butler: A couple of minor things. I can leave my house about 3:30 going north and it is not horrible. It is just very bad. If it is a quarter to four or closer to four when I leave my house, then you might as well just go home. Once the traffic backs up to Edwards Ferry, it becomes a situation like you just described and the box is just completely blocked all the time and there is no space. It just is—like I said—then you are there for quite a while. 15 North is a bit of a gamble, because you have to take a suicide left when you get up there. So, if you have one person in front of you who is not very aggressive, it can take a long time to clear the intersection there as well. It still is better than sitting here. Interestingly, it works better going 15 north if this is really busy because then the traffic is pretty much stopped all the way up 15, so it is not suicide taking a left. You can go out there and nobody is going to hit you because nobody is moving anyway. It is just a bad situation. Another question I had is on the left hand turn lane going north on 15 from Battlefield that you said you may want to try to extend...are you worried about people zipping up there and cutting in at the last minute —is there any opportunity to put a small barrier there, like a curb to prevent people from doing that? Staff answer: That is one of the options. • Butler: That might make it useful. Other than that, I think all these things are good tries, but the fact is that you are moving around the edges and there still is a fundamental problem. Are we going to encourage people to travel up and back by widening the road or not. That ultimately is the only question we have. I am not suggesting that we should, I am just saying if we don't widen 15, there is nothing we really can do. We can fill up these roads all we want, but all we are doing is, like I said, making it a baby bit better, but we are not solving the main problem and it is not a problem for us to solve. It is a fundamental policy issue, you know, at the county and state level— multiple states level. So, I applaud these efforts. • Burk: Ditto what Dave said. It is very true. We all recognize that there is a problem there and most of the problem is outside of the town. The other day, I started walking out the door and I told my husband I was going to go to Home Depot to get the flowers and he stopped me and said, "Are you out of your mind?What, why? It's Friday! No, don't go". So, I didn't. It definitely is a problem. The study will be very interesting to see what they do come up with and when do you expect that it will come back to us? Staff answer: Late September/October is what we are expecting, if all goes well. 161 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 • Burk: Then, at that point, we start talking about funding, what to do and how to do it and that sort of stuff. Staff answer: And then you will actually have some recommendations. So, if you want to go to next step and actually design work and looking for funding sources. • Burk: Right, then you get a conversation with the county and the town, states, everybody about how to get all these done. Thank you, I appreciate it very much. • Hammler: Thanks for the, I guess, opportunity to vent more than anything at this interim juncture. Tim, thank you again for staying—I specifically asked because as I am sure you already know that we have to work with the county. Together, we have to work on state and federal lobbying efforts to ultimately find a real solution to this. I know we have all bantered around how do we work with the Frederick County Board of Supervisors to come up with some sort of park and ride solution to try to ease volume—get more and more people incentivized to get out of their single person cars. Certainly that begs the question, who makes the decision or how there can even be an HOV restriction for non-local traffic. I don't even know if that is possible. Specifically, I asked the question—have we even asked the county— although I brought it up at an EDAC meeting when Mr. Sandy gave his legislative update because you had mentioned federal lobbyists. Where and how we could manage the county's federal lobbyists to try to get some transportation support because again, we all anecdotally know just looking at license plates because we live here and are literally behind all the cars and we see where they are heading that it is an interstate problem, which logically means we need to find a funding source or real solution and get Maryland and Virginia legislators talking about real solutions like whether it is finally going to be that bridge or it might be coming up with the fact that we are actually going to designate the fact that there need to be planned improvements because there is literally not even—because one of the other questions I had asked was literally why can't you just put a toll up? And start literally putting tolls by Point of Rocks to try to recoup money so that we can improve the roads because there is no planned improvements yet, although I guess we certainly have requested through the CTB and I think everyone is just sort of aware of this, but we need to communicate that this is the number one problem. We are all talking about it and our local merchants are probably feeling the impacts because like Kelly said, I literally know you don't go out and shop. You just can't get around time. So, it is impacting our local merchants. When we were at the Exeter Homeowner's Association annual meeting the Mayor was there, Marty was there, I was there. We talked about the fact that we know this is a problem. Summary— right now, we don't even know what we can do. We have got to come up with a solution, but again we have got to work with the county to 171 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 start getting very, very tactical as our big picture problem solving, which again gets back to bridges or literally road widening. Pinch points, because again back when the O'Connors were talking about improvements north of town in that <inaudible> area, they were going to work with VDOT to get it fixed. We had those discussions years ago but then low and behold that went away when ultimately Loudoun County Public Schools came in to build Tuscarora and the other schools and all those proffers went away so that did not get fixed. So, right now, I know we are just sort of commiserating on what we can't do, but certainly, Tim, if we could figure out how to work with you to at least, you know, get an action plan on federal lobbying. Is the study going to quantify the out of state plates so that we can talk facts when we are talking with Maryland legislators? I think we need to get some statistics on that so that we can communicate based on fact and not just anecdotally. I bought this up rather tongue in cheek, except that at some point it has to be a grass roots effort. What we could do is put a bill board up there alerting the Maryland drivers please contact your legislators with, you know, the message. We have got to get everybody involved in getting the legislators working on big picture fixes. So, I will look forward to the report in September. I think we have got to work with the Board in the meantime on federal/state solutions. Make sure we have got a plan to literally come up with what the planned improvements are in the corridor are going to be. Obviously we have to wait until the study comes back. But, we have got to <inaudible> for assistance. We can't just say "Oh, we know we have got to stay home between 3 and 7, certainly on a Thursday". That's not the answer. • Fox: The beauty of going last is everybody has said exactly what I feel. I do want to point out that I have seen back ups earlier. I have family in Maryland and I have to plan my trips accordingly. So, I have seen the back up. Not to mention, there is not way to mitigate that if there is an accident. One lane this way, one lane this way. What I wanted to know, was the widening, not that it should be...it is not even a question with the county. It is not even on the master plan because it is part of a historical highway? Is that the reason? Hemstreet: That is the answer. I mean traditionally, this has been a scenic highway and so the Board has not added any type of widening to Rt. 15 north of Leesburg, so that is not on the County Wide Transportation Plan. It is not on the Comprehensive Plan. The staff, we have not received any direction from the Board to pursue widening of the road. • Fox: I understand that totally. I don't see the wisdom in it, but I understand it. The initiated congestion study—you said it is going to be late September/early October when it is completed. What is the timeline after that? What kind of implementation timeline is there? Staff answer: It depends on a number of things. Renee, do you want to speak to that at all. It depends on the recommendations, then we have 18IPage Council Work Session June 22, 2015 funding, design, and planning and all the things that come with the next g � p g g step-putting it in the CIP. Lafollette: VHD has in their proposal with both County and Town to do a presentation to both the Town Council and the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors on their findings and recommendations. Once we get to that point and we can get your feedback from their presentation, then the two staffs will begin working together on that. Hopefully we will have something we can bring forward to begin discussions for the CIP. • Fox: One thing I didn't see addressed is the morning commute. What is the morning commute like? I've seen it backed up going into Maryland. Has that been a problem for Leesburg as well? It seems to be that it would be. Staff answer: We don't hear the same complaints. We have a few commuters who work in the office and we hear the personal grumblings of Rt. 15 backing up all the way from the bridge at Point of Rocks coming down, but again like you mentioned, traffic, accidents, dependent on weather, other factors come into play, but I think it has less of an impact on the cross traffic on Battlefield, anecdotally from what we hear. So, it is really not one of the big complaints. • Fox: I do think it is quality of life issue for our residents. It does say something when you say I can't go to Home Depot on a Friday because I will get stuck in traffic. That's an issue. That's a problem and I do want to take steps to get this mitigated as soon as possible. Thank you. • Mayor: Just probably one question. The reason why the widening of Rt. 15 has never really gotten serious traction was because of concerns, initially, of people living along it that it would just become more of a freeway and it would destroy the historical feel of that corridor. You, in your report, indicated that things begin to get better in the afternoon when people have reached White's Ferry Road. Then things begin to move a little better. So, presumably that is not as critical an area as the area south of that section. Which is—it is hard to accept that a one lane road all the way to Point of Rocks is not part of the problem, but according to what you are seeing in traffic, it really is not a critical part of the problem—it is all White's Ferry south to Leesburg. Why is that? Staff Answer: I think Calvin can come up here and tell you the more scientific answer, but what happens here is you've got this... Lafollette: It is similar to what happens in a construction zone. You have two/three lanes merging into one lane. Once the merge happens, traffic starts to move. So, you've got all of that traffic volume from two lanes of the bypass coming into the merge at 15 Business all coming into one lane. Once that traffic starts to move, it clears out. We are hearing that from the staff that work here, once they pass Raspberry Falls/White's Ferry, traffic moves at a steady pace all the way to the Point of Rocks bridge. It is very similar to what happens in a 191 Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 construction work zone. The bottle neck getting into the one lane, but once it starts moving, it keeps going. Markel: That's the last single before Lucketts. You have a long stretch that lets you go. • Mayor: Short of a big sign telling people just to have dinner in Leesburg...Suzanne said something I thought was interesting, but I would imagine the reason you don't have the same problem in the morning is because people are then just able to disperse on several different roadways, business 15, 15 bypass, Battlefield, they can go the Greenway, or they can go to Route 7, or they can go to Sycolin Road. In the southbound direction, you have multiple options and many more lanes than you have going northbound. Staff answer: And you are already one lane coming in so you are already single file. Then you get more options. Here it is the reverse, you are choking down to one. • Mayor: So, we are probably going to be requesting assistance in funding from the county and NVTA and VDOT potentially. When would we anticipate, if we were trying to do that, that we would start lobbying for that? Staff answer: VDOT, as you know with the NVTA funding there is a process. The projects have to go through the 599 process and they are evaluated. If they are for congestion mitigation, then they are recommended and ranked by five different ranking systems. What we are planning on doing is, you know, is I know that we talked about this interchange. We had a letter that went to the county about funding for this as part of the projects that NVTA for 599 for FY 18. We will submit that—whatever is the project, so that they can evaluate and maybe receive some funding from NVTA or recommend some funding. But, again, that's in the future. • Mayor: In the meantime, we will be putting, what is it? $19,000 in town dollars into the study. Remind me any other sources of funds for any other related studies at this time. Staff answer: Just VDOT's $50,000 that they put in. This is the town's portion. We were hoping that they would cover the study of Battlefield as well, but VDOT wasn't willing to go there, but there is an economy of scale benefit by us piggybacking on the VHD study, while they are out there, while they are doing the modeling—to add us on incrementally. It is a benefit rather than us waiting six months to a year and doing it independently. Then we would be paying a higher price. • Fox: Is that enough money for funding this study? Staff answer: Yes. It has been fully scoped out and reviewed by town staff. • Hammier: To your point, that Renee just confirmed that this study will come up with a definitive solution based on what we are seeing that the traffic starts freeing up after the pinch points. They are going to say, okay do a traffic circle here, or come up with something that we are 201Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 going to be able to implement and just make sure the nomenclature continually says not just NVTA and VDOT. We have got to include our interstate neighbors. At the end of the day, the volume of interstate traffic which again <inaudible>. • Mayor: The only other question—have we started to estimate any potential eminent domain costs for any property that might be required? Staff answer: Inside the town limits? • Mayor: Well, that would be inside for us. Staff answer: For the Battlefield Intersection, where we are focusing our attention, I believe that the good news there is that we have so much space there because of the good planning years ago for the interchange improvements, that I think we have the flexibility to implement a lot of the things that may come from the study. • Mayor: Renee, would that include your diversion lane going from Battlefield north, cutting across that right now empty space? Lafollette: Yes, that is part of the land that has been reserved for our future interchange. So, we already have that portion of the land. It would be more for the corporate limits that until we know what the study recommendations are, that we wouldn't know what kind of impact it would have. • Dunn: What is the law on no right turn signs? I know that right turn on red is allowed unless otherwise noted. If you have a right turn on red or no right turn on red, much like we have out here on King Street that says the time. Just a sign. It could say no right turn on red from 4 —6 p.m. Monday through Friday. What does that cost? A tin sign up on a pole. Staff answer: $300. I mean for the sign. • Dunn: $300. Can we try that for a month? Staff answer: Again, we are looking at that. That is one of the options that we are looking at. • Dunn: I think we will pony up the cash. Okay? Staff answer: That is one of the recommendations that we are going to come back to Council in the fall. We are looking at signal timing now to see if we can do that with signal timing, but if it doesn't work... • Dunn: But signal timing won't stop people from turning right • Hammier: That's a very interesting recommendation. • Dunn: It doesn't stop—well, you mentioned that earlier. You can hold that signal from other intersections, but you've got to have something to stop them from turning right. Staff answer: It is filling in the gap. • Dunn: So, that's what I was saying—while we are doing the study, if we could put the no-right turn on red from 4-6 p.m. and see what happens. I think you will find that maybe for$300 bucks, I could save $19,000 or at least a part of it. Okay? And the other is the Chief is saying there is a significant amount of U-turns going on at Fieldstone. I don't think it you have it at Battlefield as much because those people 21 ' Page Council Work Session June 22, 2015 see that back up and they don't want to try it, but I imagine a no-U turn sign probably costs $300, probably about the same amount. So, for $600 bucks, we may be able to curb some of what we are seeing happening. While you do the study, and Dave you know I don't like to spend money. I am willing to spend $600 bucks to at least see if while we do the study what the results are. I would very much be interested in seeing that rather than waiting for October. Okay, Kaj? I don't know if the rest of Council would need to vote for a $300 sign, but I really think it is worth it because what we are doing now is... 2. Additions to Future Council Meetings Council Member Butler: "It looks like after our discussions around the downtown improvements last week, the investigation has shown that we have about $2.5 million in capital dollars available between now and FY 17 and we have a whole list of projects that have come out of department recommendations, plus the rest of the downtown improvements, plus a couple that we talked about a few months ago. I'd like to have a work session to have Council move these around and see if we want to do anything with it." There was consensus to have a work session discussion. Council Member Hammier: "I would officially like to ask that we do license plate counts as part of the Rt. 15 study, because it is not part of the actual study that we are doing, but if we could have staff do it or come up with some quantification of what is the source in terms of the drivers, Maryland, Pennsylvania—what state." Mr. Markel stated it would increase the cost of the study to physically have someone out there doing the counts. There was consensus to support an informational memo on the costs of counting license plates. Council Member Hammier requested a vote on the Fire and Rescue liaisons and having the SRTC look at traffic calming options on Club House Drive. She requested a memo on the cost overages with the downtown improvements. 3. Adjournment On a motion by Council Member Butler, seconded by Vice Mayor Burk the meeting was adj• rued at ' -2 p.m. 41 Clerk of ••1 it 2015 tcwsmin062 221Page