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HomeMy Public PortalAboutExhibit MSD 109 - Transcript of May 11, 2015 Public Hearing PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 THE METROPOLITAN ST. LOUIS SEWER DISTRICT 9 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT & REPLACEMENT PROGRAM 10 11 FY17 TO 20 STORMWATER PROJECTS 12 PUBLIC HEARING 13 MAY 11, 2015 14 6:00 PM - 6:45 PM 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 Opening Remarks - Mr. George Tomazi 5 4 Presentation - Mr. Hoelscher 9 5 Comments - Ms. Erra Wise 31 6 Meeting Adjourned 35 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 THE METROPOLITAN ST. LOUIS SEWER DISTRICT 8 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT & REPLACEMENT PROGRAM 9 10 FY17 TO 20 STORMWATER PROJECTS 11 PUBLIC HEARING 12 MAY 11, 2015 13 6:00 PM - 6:45 PM 14 15 16 17 18 Kathleen Watson Brunsmann 19 CSR, CCR, CRR, RPR 20 Midwest Litigation Services 21 711 North 11th Street 22 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 23 314.644.2191 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 4 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 PRESIDING RATE COMMISSIONER: Mr. George D. Tomazi 4 RATE COMMISSIONER MEMBER: Mr. Steven Chodes 5 6 7 8 METROPOLITAN ST. LOUIS SEWER DISTRICT: 9 10 Mr. Brian L. Hoelscher, P.E. 11 Executive Director 12 13 Mr. Lance Lecomb 14 Manger of Public Information & Spokesperson 15 16 Mr. Sean Hadley 17 Public Information Representative 18 19 Mr. Tim R. Snoke 20 Secretary-Treasurer 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 5 1 (Wherein, the following proceedings 2 were had of record, to-wit:) 3 MR. TOMAZI: Noted that it is now 6:00. 4 I would like to say good evening. I'm George 5 Tomazi, I'm a member of the Rate Commission, and 6 I'll be presiding over this Public Hearing this 7 evening. With me tonight is Rate Commissioner Mr. 8 Steve Chodes, and we are expecting a Miss Annette 9 Slack here most any time. 10 A little bit of housekeeping, if you 11 will, at first. Just for those who may not be 12 totally familiar with the District and the Rate 13 Commission, the Charter Plan of the District was 14 amended at a general election on November 7th, 2000, 15 and established the Rate Commission to review and 16 make recommendations to the District regarding 17 changes in wastewater rates, stormwater rates, and 18 tax rates proposed by the District. 19 The Charter Plan requires that the MSD 20 Board of Trustees select organizations to ensure a 21 fair representation of all users of the District's 22 services on the Rate Commission. The Rate 23 Commission representative organizations are to 24 represent commercial-industrial users, residential 25 users, and other organizations interested in the PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 6 1 operation of the District, including organizations 2 focusing on environmental issues, labor issues, 3 socio-economic issues, community related 4 organizations, and other non-profit organizations. 5 The MSD Rate Commission currently consists of 15 6 members from organizations and institutions 7 throughout the St. Louis City and County. 8 On February 26th, 2015, the Rate 9 Commission received a Rate Change Notice proposing 10 changes to the District's wastewater rates and 11 stormwater rates. The Rate Commission adopted 12 Operational Rules and a Procedural Schedule to 13 govern the proceedings on March 4th, 2015. Under 14 the current Procedure Schedule adopted by the Rate 15 Commission, the MSD Rate Commission has until June 16 26th, 2015, to review and make a recommendation to 17 the MSD Board of Trustees as to whether the proposed 18 rates should be approved, not approved, or modified 19 with suggested changes and then approved. The 20 Commission, however, has requested an extension from 21 the MSD Board of Trustees until August 2015, which 22 has not yet been acted upon. 23 The MSD Rate Commission has engaged 24 legal counsel and a rate consultant independent of 25 those used by the MSD staff. PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 7 1 Under the procedural rules adopted by 2 the Rate Commission, as amended, any person affected 3 by the Rate Change Proposal had an opportunity to 4 submit an application to intervene in these 5 proceedings. Applications to intervene have been 6 filed by the Home Builders Association of St. Louis 7 and the Missouri Industrial Energy Consumers. These 8 applications have been granted. 9 Since February 26th, 2015, MSD Rate 10 Commission has received testimony from MSD staff. 11 These parties have also engaged in discovery 12 requests. Additional testimony from the Intervenors 13 and the Rate Consultant will be filed. 14 A Prehearing Conference for the purpose 15 of identifying any issues raised by the Rate Setting 16 Documents and the prepared testimony previously 17 submitted will be conducted on the record. All 18 persons submitting testimony may participate in the 19 Prehearing Conference, and each participant in the 20 Prehearing Conference shall submit a Prehearing 21 Conference Report describing the issues raised by 22 the Rate Setting Documents and to prepare testimony, 23 together with a brief description of such 24 participant's position, if any, on each issue and 25 the rationale therefor. PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 8 1 Ratepayers who do not wish to intervene 2 are permitted to participate in these on-the-record 3 public hearings conducted in -- I think it's 11 4 sessions beginning on May 11th, which is tonight, 5 and concluding on June 9th, 2015. 6 The Rate Commission published a Public 7 Notice regarding these proceedings in the St. Louis 8 Post Dispatch and in the St. Louis American. These 9 Notices contain the time, dates and locations of 10 each of the conferences and hearings. 11 The Public Hearing Session tonight is 12 for the purpose of permitting the District to 13 present its Wastewater and Stormwater Rate Change 14 Proposal, and to permit any ratepayer an opportunity 15 to comment. We'll begin with the presentation by 16 the District, followed by a public comment period. 17 Those wishing to speak can sign in on the sheet 18 provided over by the door, and will be called on in 19 the order in which the names are listed thereon. 20 Each ratepayer should identify themselves and any 21 organizations represented by such ratepayer. 22 A few housekeeping rules before we 23 begin. 24 If you wish to present testimony, 25 please sign in on that clipboard by the door. PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 9 1 Speakers will be recognized in the 2 order in which they sign up. No one has asked to 3 speak in advance. 4 Each ratepayer may have a maximum of 5 ten minutes to speak regarding proposed rate change. 6 As presiding officer, I can limit or expand the time 7 should I deem it necessary. 8 Restrooms are located back up the hall 9 just towards the reception area. 10 Are there any questions regarding the 11 procedures for this evening? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. TOMAZI: Is the District ready to 14 proceed? 15 MR. HOELSCHER: Yes, sir. 16 MR. TOMAZI: Please do so. 17 MR. HOELSCHER: Good evening. My name 18 is Brian Hoelscher. I'm the Executive Director of 19 the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District. I am 20 going to make a presentation on the proposed Rate 21 Proposal that we submitted to our rate 22 commissioners -- our Rate Commission. 23 If you have any questions or comments, 24 you can ask them at the end of the presentation. If 25 you have any questions regarding MSD outside of this PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 10 1 presentation, we do have staff here at the close of 2 these proceedings. If you have other questions or 3 comments regarding MSD in any other vain, we'll be 4 here to take your questions or answer your 5 questions. 6 Two things about MSD. We're actually 7 two utilities. We provide wastewater service. 8 That's a collection and treatment of 9 used water from sinks, toilets, floor drains, 10 washing machines. It travels through miles of pipes 11 to one of seven treatment plants. It's treated to 12 the standards as required by the permits with the 13 Missouri Department of Natural Resources. The cost 14 for these services are on a monthly MSD bill and is 15 based upon the water usage during the winter. 16 We're also a stormwater utility. 17 Whatever rain is not collected, otherwise drained to 18 natural creeks or to the soil, go through a 19 stormwater collection system, pipes and manholes 20 that we have, pipes, manholes, inlets and paved 21 channels. We also are required to address 22 regulatory requirements regarding the impact the 23 stormwater runoff on the quality of local creeks and 24 streams. 25 Stormwater service is funded by a small PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 11 1 flat fee of twenty-four cents per month, it shows up 2 on your monthly bill, mostly is paid for through 3 your annual property tax bill. 4 Some information on MSD's Rate 5 Commission. It was established in 2000 to provide 6 public input into how MSD sets its rates. There are 7 15 organizations representing a broad cross-section 8 of the community that MSD serves. They review all 9 proposed rate changes and Charter defined 10 parameters. They the render then a recommendation 11 to our Board of Trustees. 12 The Rate Commission is considering a 13 Rate Proposal for our revenues from July 1, 2016, to 14 June 30th, 2020. 15 Next I want to bring some information 16 on the current wastewater rates. 17 The Capital Improvement and Replacement 18 Program in the current rate structure is on time and 19 under budget. There was 971 million dollars 20 identified to begin work on in fiscal 2013 to 2016. 21 Right now MSD anticipates it will spend about 890 22 million dollars of those funds, or practically 95 23 percent. 24 The amount that came in under is due 25 mostly to good prices we've been getting and cost PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 12 1 savings conditions that we put into the program. 2 Next, our current operations and 3 maintenance budget. Again, it is also on time and 4 under budget. There was 716 million dollars in 5 revenue requested in the last rate proposal, we're 6 anticipating the final expenditures at the end of 7 fiscal 2016 will be 700 million dollars. 8 Some of the accomplishments in the 9 wastewater operations. The inspection of about 62 10 thousand manholes, rehabilitation of about 6600 11 manholes, inspection of 1900 miles of sewer, and 12 based on a calculation of similar rains that 13 happened in North County, we anticipate that we've 14 seen so far a reduction of 66 percent in the number 15 of basement backups and overflow in this. 16 Next, proposed wastewater rates. 17 There's three drivers to the work we have to do as 18 part of project clear. First, is getting the rain 19 out. 20 The problem we're addressing is excess 21 stormwater getting into the sewer system that cause 22 overflows and basement backus. Getting the rain out 23 before it gets into the sewer system is the most 24 cost effective way to solve that issue. 25 We will have to repair, catch up on the PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 13 1 repair and maintenance of much of the system, and in 2 some cases we will be building system improvements. 3 We want to maintain the District's 4 financial stability and do the financing in a 5 responsible manner. The Rate Proposal we're 6 proposing, assuming that bonding is the main method 7 of funding for the Capital Program, will assure that 8 the District maintains at least a double A bond 9 rating with the rating agencies. This is the 10 standard throughout the country for wastewater 11 utilities. 12 Slide eight. Wastewater Rate Proposal 13 Key Financial Elements, that we're planning on 14 spending 1.5 billion, starting 1.5 billion dollars 15 in capital work over the next four years. 16 The amounts per year are shown here 17 totaling again in the 1.5 million dollar program. 18 We're anticipating operation and maintenance costs 19 of 736 million dollars. And there will be 477 20 million dollars of total debt service cost, both 21 from past bond issues and the proposed bond issue 22 that MSD will present to the voters for the next 23 four years. 24 So, for the next four years we are 25 recommending additional bonding authority. We're PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 14 1 anticipating for that 1.5 billion dollars of capital 2 work that 415 million of it will be cash financed 3 through the monies collected through the rates and 4 we'll bond finance 1.1 billion dollars of the 5 Capital Program. 6 To do that, we are assuming that the 7 ratepayers will authorize us 900 million dollars of 8 additional bond authority. That would bring our 9 total debt authorization to 2.26 billion dollars. 10 100 percent of all bond revenues are used to pay for 11 the Capital Program. 12 What this will buy in the fiscal 17 13 through fiscal 20, approximately a total of 600 14 capital projects and 226, which will be construction 15 projects, the elimination of 39 overflows in the 16 system, and beginning the design of 24 miles of 17 storage conveyance tunnels as needed to collect 18 overflows prior to them entering the local creeks 19 and streams. 20 Slide 11 is a map of the wastewater 21 projects we plan on doing. I will note if you see 22 in the lower corner here Appendix 7.2.2, a 23 presentation like this is on a Rate Proposal. 24 Whenever you see a reference like that, it's a 25 reference to the section in our actual Rate Proposal PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 15 1 which is on our internet site. 2 This indicates where all the projects 3 are in each one of those little blue circles is a 4 number. We have copies of those presentations here 5 tonight. If you looked at the number in a blue 6 circle, next to the map there is a spread sheet. If 7 you go to that number, you'll find out the name of 8 the project, the cost of the project, the problem it 9 solves, what year we plan on doing it. Those are 10 available for inspection once we're done with the 11 presentation. 12 Operations and Maintenance. We're 13 proposing to inspect 60 thousand manholes, 14 rehabilitate 6,000 manholes, inspect 1600 miles of 15 sewer, clean 3800 miles of sewer, and rehabilitate 16 360 miles of sewers. 17 What is the cost of this? The voters 18 will have an option of how they wish to pay for 19 this. If you look under Option A, this is assuming 20 that the ratepayers authorize additional bonding 21 authority. 22 If the MSD would propose to request 900 23 million dollars in additional bonds, that would be 24 used to help construct -- start the construction of 25 1.5 billion dollars in capital improvements over the PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 16 1 next four years. And below you see what the result 2 would be to the average single family wastewater 3 sewer bill. 4 On June 30th, 2016, that bill will be 5 $40.72. Every year we are proposing the rates to go 6 up approximately ten percent, ending up in a final 7 bill for the average ratepayer $60.86 at the end of 8 fiscal 20. That's not -- may not represent your 9 exact bill, but if you take your current bill, it is 10 an increase of approximately ten percent per year 11 from whatever your current bill is. 12 On the right is assuming that the 13 voters decide not to authorize additional bonding. 14 If they do, per our consent decree with the federal 15 government, we still have to do the 1.5 billion 16 dollars worth of capital work in order to abide by 17 the consent decree. 18 Therefore, without bonding you see the 19 resulting rates. Fiscal 16, again same average cost 20 of $40.72; fiscal 17, in both scenarios is the same, 21 $44.72, because we're using past bonding authority. 22 (Interruption of overhead 23 announcement.) 24 MR. HOELSCHER: And increasing so that 25 you peek at $96.01 in fiscal year 2020. PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 17 1 Again, this is the decision we'll ask 2 the voters to make. Do you want to borrow money now 3 to pay for the program and keep rates lower, paying 4 the interest lower, or do you want to pay cash for 5 the program, which means you pay more now, pay less 6 later. 7 Now we'll address stormwater service. 8 First of all, I want to discuss the current 9 stormwater service. 10 If you look at this map, it is the map 11 of the District. To the right is the City of St. 12 Louis. There's a line of city limits within that 13 yellow area. To the east is the Mississippi River. 14 To the north and west is the Missouri River. To the 15 south is the Meramec River, and the District 16 boundaries wiggle into that. 17 The District's boundaries consist of 18 the City of St. Louis and about 85 percent of the 19 county, approximately out to the Highway 109 in 20 Wildwood. 21 If you live in the pink area for 22 stormwater, right now you are paying a twenty-four 23 cent per month fee and approximately a two cent 24 property tax. So in the pink area, MSD is able to 25 meet all state and federal regulatory compliance PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 18 1 issues with regard to stormwater. We collect and 2 track data on stormwater issues, and if necessary, 3 can do emergency response. For instance, if a home 4 is apparently going to fall into a creek due to 5 erosion. 6 That is all the service that's received 7 in the pink area. We do not maintain the storm 8 sewers in that area because of lack of revenue, and 9 there are no projects performed in order to resolve 10 stormwater issues. 11 If you live in the yellow area, which 12 is the City of St. Louis, and primarily near 13 Northwest and South County. If you live in that 14 area you pay us a 24 percent -- twenty-four cent per 15 month fee on your monthly bill, a two cent property 16 tax and an additional seven cent property tax that 17 shows up on your annual property tax bill. 18 With that, again you're paying -- 19 you're getting the same services you have in the 20 pink area. We're taking care of all regulatory 21 issues, but in addition, it allows us to maintain to 22 a pretty good degree the stormwater system located 23 within the yellow area. Storm sewers, inlets, 24 manholes and paved channels. There are no projects 25 done in the yellow area to address other stormwater PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 19 1 issues, such as erosion or flooding. 2 If you live in the green area, you pay 3 a twenty-four cent per month fee, pay a two cent 4 property tax, seven cent property tax, and up to 5 another ten cent property tax. 6 If you live in that area, we take care 7 of all regulatory issues, maintain the storm sewer 8 system, and with that extra up to ten cent tax it 9 does allow us to do projects to address erosion and 10 flooding in the green area. 11 What does that mean in real dollars? 12 If you add those together, again the pink area all 13 we do is regulatory work, the average District 14 customer pays $8.00 a year on their property tax for 15 that service. 16 If you live in the yellow area, you get 17 the regulatory work taken care of, you also get the 18 storm sewer system operated and maintained, the 19 average residential customer in the District if you 20 live in the yellow area pays $26.00 a year for that 21 service on your annual property tax bill. 22 If you live in the green area, you get 23 the regulatory work completed, we maintain and 24 operate the existing storm sewers, public storm 25 sewer system, and we can do projects to relieve PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 20 1 erosion and flooding. If you live in that green 2 area, you pay an average of $53.00 per year on your 3 annual property tax bill. 4 So as you can see, the amount you pay 5 per year on your taxes is directly related to the 6 services that MSD can provide. 7 I want to talk now about the main issue 8 MSD plans on addressing in the stormwater proposal. 9 There is a two cent District-wide tax that allows us 10 to address all regulatory compliance activities. 11 These come from state and federal agencies, as well 12 as our own local regulations. 13 It pays for the plan review and 14 permitting in order to regulate new development, 15 allows us to investigate complaints and collect 16 data, and to do emergency responses. 17 What that looks like in the pink area, 18 this is a representation, that gray area is where 19 you saw the yellow and green, what you see out there 20 with the little line, that's where that red/pink 21 area was as you see on the upper right-hand corner. 22 The little blue lines are all creeks 23 that MSD needs to address. There's 1,154 miles of 24 creeks in the red area that MSD has to monitor and 25 address with regard to the impact of stormwater PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 21 1 runoff. 2 Also, within there there are 2,638 3 green dots. These represent basins or best 4 management practices like rain gardens, that address 5 either stormwater volume or stormwater runoff 6 quality. We don't bill these but we do have 7 responsibility to review them when submitted and 8 police them to make sure they continuously function 9 to serve their purpose. That work is currently 10 funded through the two cent property tax. 11 The next sheet is the part that is 12 MSD's responsibility that is not currently funded. 13 The lines you see in the yellowish area that are 14 outside the gray area, they represent approximately 15 1,363 miles of public storm sewer that is the 16 responsibility of MSD that receives no operation and 17 maintenance. 18 Two issues we're wanting to address. 19 One, we're wanting to operate and maintain and fix 20 these storm sewers that are causing problems to 21 residents, they're causing problems to 22 municipalities. 23 The other issue is those folks living 24 outside the gray area are not participating in the 25 cost of maintaining the storm system throughout PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 22 1 MSD's entire area. If you drive on a public street 2 anywhere within our District boundaries, you are 3 benefiting from the storm sewer system that MSD 4 maintains. 5 We're looking to put in place a method 6 so that we can both operate and maintain those storm 7 sewers and also collect the appropriate revenues 8 from those individuals who live in that area. 9 Here's how we propose to do that. One, 10 our proposal would result in four years of 11 operations and maintenance at a cost of 90.8 million 12 dollars. That's higher than we had in the past. By 13 actually providing operation and maintenance of the 14 storm sewers in the red area, we are doubling the 15 amount of storm sewers that we have to operate and 16 maintain. 17 It also results in a six year 100 18 million dollar Capital Program to address stormwater 19 issues District-wide. I'll discuss exactly how and 20 why that happens. Part of it is the new rate, a lot 21 of it -- uTax, a lot of it has to do with change in 22 the way we can account for the monies with the new 23 tax that we're proposing. 24 What are the drivers? Again, the 25 necessary maintenance of the public storm sewer PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 23 1 system, especially that we currently cannot 2 maintain. It does initiate limited funding for six 3 years for stormwater problems District-wide. 4 What happens to our proposed stormwater 5 operating costs in fiscal year 16 under the scenario 6 I presented under our current service level -- 7 (Interruption of overhead 8 announcement.) 9 MR. HOELSCHER: -- we're anticipating 10 16 million dollars in operating costs. Fiscal 17 11 through 20, you see approximately 22 or 23 million, 12 a little less than 50 percent increase. That 13 increase comes because again we are doubling the 14 amount of storm sewers that we are going to operate 15 and maintain by operating and maintaining those in 16 that red area. 17 Next page is where the proposed 18 stormwater projects are. I will start in this case 19 at the top. The green area. There are 64 projects. 20 Approximate cost of 25 million dollars. Same rules 21 apply as we had with the other chart. 22 There's a chart over here that shows 23 where those projects are. Within each circle is a 24 number and we have a spread sheet here. If you look 25 at that spread sheet, you find the name of the PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 24 1 project, the problem it resolves, what we're going 2 to do, what it costs, and what year we do the work. 3 So in the green area, we're proposing 4 64 projects through 2020 at a cost of 25 million 5 dollars. 6 Most of those projects would have been 7 done anyway. There's a separate property tax we 8 collect just for that purpose, however with the new 9 rate some of that money was being put towards the 10 operation and maintenance of the storm system. This 11 allows us to dedicate all 25 million dollars in 12 projects in the green area. 13 In the yellow area, which has never had 14 stormwater projects resolve stormwater issues, we'll 15 be able to do 47 projects for a cost of about 17 and 16 a half million dollars. Approximately half of those 17 projects are in the City of St. Louis. The other 18 half are mostly Near North County and Near South 19 County. 20 Where does that money come from? The 21 existing funds that we're collecting in that area 22 can only be used for public operation -- operation 23 and maintenance of public stormwater system. The 24 new tax allows us to relieve ourselves of that 25 accounting restriction and those are monies that PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 25 1 were collected in the yellow area, they get to now 2 be spent in the yellow area to provide stormwater 3 projects. 4 In the red area, we've identified 59 5 projects at a cost of seven and a half million 6 dollars. In that red area, we have never done 7 projects in the past. The new rate approximately 8 eight -- we're proposing a ten cent property tax, 9 approximately 8.8 cents of that will go to operation 10 and maintenance. What we're proposing is that any 11 left over that's not used for operation and 12 maintenance can be used for District-wide stormwater 13 projects and stormwater issues. Because we do a 14 cost benefit analysis of the worst problem divided 15 by the cost, those projects will be done in the red 16 area. 17 So what does the change look like to 18 the revenues? If you're in the green area and 19 paying that five to ten cent tax, MSD will set that 20 tax at zero. They will no longer correct the OMCI. 21 We'll set the tax at zero in the green area. 22 In the yellow area there's a stormwater 23 tax of seven cents, that's both in the yellow and 24 green area, this new ten cent proposal would replace 25 that seven cent tax so we would no longer charge PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 26 1 that. 2 District-wide there's a two cent 3 property tax used to pay for regulatory issues, we 4 would continue collecting that. It's currently 5 sufficient to address District-wide regulatory 6 issues and we would leave it in place. 7 Again, we are proposing a District-wide 8 ten cent tax, property tax, paid annually in your 9 property tax bill to replace those taxes, and then 10 finally the twenty-four cent per month charge for 11 stormwater that's on everybody's monthly wastewater 12 bill, we will also eliminate that. 13 The impact in individual ratepayer will 14 depend on where you live for stormwater. Oh, there 15 you go. Okay. If you live in the green area, the 16 average property value in the green area is a 17 hundred and eighty-four thousand five hundred 18 dollars. 19 Based on that, the average person in 20 that green area is currently paying $62.00 a year on 21 their annual property tax bill to MSD for those 22 services. The proposal would reduce that by about 23 $20.00 a month, resulting in an annual property tax 24 bill of the average person in that area of about 25 $42.00 per year for property tax. That would be a PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 27 1 change in their total property tax bill of 2 approximately a decrease of one half of one percent 3 of the total property tax bill. MSD taxes are very 4 minor compared to the other charges on the property 5 tax bill. 6 If you live in the yellow area, the 7 average assessed evaluation in the yellow area for a 8 home is $70,800.00. Currently, if you live in that 9 area, you're paying an average of $12.50 a year on 10 your property tax bill. With the proposed change, 11 that would increase by $3.60 per year on your 12 property tax bill, resulting in a total property tax 13 bill for the average taxpayer of $16.10 per year. 14 That would be a change in the average overall annual 15 property tax bill of an increase of three tenths of 16 one percent. 17 Finally, if you're in the red area, if 18 you recall there's very little services provided 19 there, we're proposing to provide the whole arena of 20 services. Currently you're paying a two cent tax, 21 property value -- average property value in the red 22 area is $266,700.00. The average person right now 23 is paying $10.50 per year on their property tax bill 24 for stormwater services they provide. 25 If we add a proposed ten cent tax, that PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 28 1 would bring that total to $60.60 per year for the 2 average taxpayer in the red area to pay for full -- 3 for all stormwater services we're proposing. That 4 would be a change in the overall property tax bill 5 for the average person of an increase of 1.2 6 percent. So every thousand dollars, it would be an 7 increase of $12.00 on your annual property tax 8 bills. 9 Total impact to the customer. What 10 we've done is we've taken the annual cost of all of 11 MSD's services. So if you take -- if you look on 12 the left-hand side, this is assuming we get 13 wastewater bonds approved by the voters and we have 14 stormwater increases, in fiscal 16 the average 15 ratepayer to MSD will pay a total -- annual total -- 16 total annual cost of $522.00 per year for all the 17 services we provide. If these changes go in place 18 by 2020, the average person will be paying $771.00 19 per year for all the services that MSD provides. 20 The column on the right-hand side is 21 the average annual cost assuming the voters do not 22 approve additional bonding authority. Again, at the 23 end of 2016 the average property owner will be 24 paying an annual cost of about $522.00 per year for 25 all their services. If we don't have bonding, that PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 29 1 will go up to the average customer to $1,193.00 per 2 year for all our services. Again, a combination of 3 a monthly bill and your annual property tax bill. 4 Slide 31. Did want to mention that MSD 5 has a low income program. Essentially what that 6 does, it cuts in half the cost of what you pay MSD. 7 So if you take a look at this chart and 8 you compare it to the other one, you'll see that the 9 proposed annual cost per customer is about half of 10 what you saw in the previous chart. 11 If you're interested in that, that is 12 on our website and also, we have individuals here if 13 anybody is interested in the low income program. 14 The remaining rate process, again on 15 February 26th, 2015 MSD staff submitted to the Rate 16 Commission its proposal. Final wastewater rate 17 increase of the past Rate Proposal will go into 18 effect July 1, 2015. That's already been approved 19 by the Rate Commission. 20 The Rate Commission recommendations are 21 due to our Board of Trustees by August 10, 2015. 22 After that MSD's Board will review the 23 recommendations of the Rate Commission and they'll 24 do that between October and December of 2015. 25 What will happen after that is in 2016 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 30 1 the voters will be asked to decide two decisions. 2 One, on the wastewater side, as we saw previously, 3 you can decide to give MSD the authority, 900 4 million dollar additional bonding authority, that 5 will result in the chart that shows ultimately -- 6 approximately a $60.00 charge per month in 2020. Or 7 you can vote not to allow additional bonding 8 authority, which results in 2020 in an average 9 monthly cost of $96.00 per month for wastewater 10 service. 11 The second item that will be up for 12 vote is stormwater. If the voters vote yes on the 13 ten cent stormwater proposal, that new system that 14 we showed you would go in place, with the twelve 15 cents -- approximately twelve cent property tax 16 charged District-wide. The existing two cent tax, 17 plus a new ten cent tax, and the service levels that 18 are equalized throughout our area. 19 If the voters vote no, we'll maintain 20 the current system of taxes and the twenty-four cent 21 per month fee and we'll provide the services 22 throughout the area depending on how much you pay. 23 That will be totally up to the voters. 24 The Rate Commission, if you want to 25 submit formal comments for their consideration, PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 31 1 there is an email address that's set up here, as 2 well as a location, a written location as to where 3 MSD is located if you want to send them in writing. 4 In addition to this presentation, 5 there's two documents you have. One is titled MSD 6 Rate Commission. On that page, you will see a list 7 of their process, location of all the meetings. 8 We're at the first meeting today. And on the 9 left -- on the right-hand bar in blue you'll see all 10 the members of the Rate Commission, all the members 11 of the organizations, and the individuals who 12 represent those organizations. 13 There's a second document that says 14 2015 MSD Rate Proposal. One side is the wastewater 15 proposal we just discussed, got an overview. On the 16 back side is stormwater, with that colored yellow, 17 red, green map, and again, it is a summation of the 18 information that we've provided. 19 That's the end of the presentation. 20 The Rate Commission would like at this time to open 21 the floor to anybody who would like to comment or 22 ask questions with regard to MSD's Rate Proposal. 23 MR. TOMAZI: Is there anyone who wishes 24 to speak? Yes, ma'am. 25 MS. ERRA WISE: Yes. I'm interested, PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 32 1 you talking about all of this anticipating increase, 2 when are you going to put it on the ballot for the 3 public? 4 MR. TOMAZI: When will it go on the 5 ballot, is that your question? 6 MS. ERRA WISE: That's correct. 7 THE COURT: It will be in calendar 8 2016. Exactly what days, we don't know. When 9 that's set, there will be public information from 10 MSD. We won't advocate one way or the other. 11 What will go out to the public, we'll 12 let them know there will be a vote and let them know 13 if you vote this way, this will be the results, if 14 you vote this way, this will be the results, and 15 there will be a large public education campaign that 16 will occur prior to the actual voting dates. 17 They may be voted on separate dates, 18 they may be voted on the same day, and we don't know 19 which order they will be in. That's to be 20 determined by the Board of Trustees at the end of 21 this calendar year. 22 MS. ERRA WISE: My concern is with the 23 utilities. You all are killing us with all kind of 24 taxes, and this and that, and you look on your bill, 25 say you got a $40.00 bill, and when you get through PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 33 1 looking at this tax, this delivery, this service 2 coming in from wherever they get the product from, 3 you might have a $40.00 bill that turns into 60 or 4 $70.00 bill. 5 And we're senior citizens on a fixed 6 income, and it just looks like the utility companies 7 have this double barrel shotgun at us and we're the 8 ones that this will be dumped on. 9 And you don't have any people here 10 because I talked to some people, and I'm tired of 11 going to these meetings about these rate increases 12 and what have you, and everything is just constantly 13 going up. We're on a fixed income, our retirements 14 and our pensions, they don't care. 15 And if you don't pay within a timely 16 manner, you get a fee for everything. And sometimes 17 when you get that bill, say if you get it on the 18 10th, sometime it might be due on the 17th, seven 19 days later. 20 And these are the problems that the 21 public is running into with the utilities and 22 everything, and when you go to apply sometimes for 23 services from some of these agencies, first of all, 24 they'll tell you, you're a little too high, you 25 know, and this is really got the public turned up, PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 34 1 because I asked some people about this meeting, and 2 we -- I was just because it was in my neighborhood, 3 that's why I come. 4 But if it's not presented to the public 5 and you going to have to find a different way, I 6 don't know what you're going to do for us to get the 7 participation from the public because you go to 8 these meetings all the time, and it's one and two of 9 the same people that meet at the gas thing, the 10 light thing, and then we still end up with the 11 commissioners then still jumping the bills up. 12 That's really beyond our reach. 13 MR. TOMAZI: Thank you very much. We 14 appreciate your comments, and as a member of the 15 Rate Commission, we try -- the reason we're here is 16 to hear what folks like yourself have to say. We 17 appreciate your comments very much. 18 Is there anyone else that has any 19 questions or would like to speak? Anyone else? 20 Going twice? 21 (No response.) 22 MR. TOMAZI: Anyone else going three 23 times. 24 (No response.) 25 MR. TOMAZI: Thank you very much, PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 35 1 ma'am, we appreciate you being here. 2 With that, I would like to thank 3 everybody for coming here tonight and participating. 4 The next two public hearings will be conducted -- 5 the first one is tomorrow night at 6:00 at the 6 Pointe at Ballwin Commons, and then on Wednesday 7 night May 13th, 2006, at the Normandy City Hall in 8 Council Chambers. If you're interested in any other 9 dates, we can certainly provide them to you. 10 If there is no other input or 11 involvement, this meeting is -- this public hearing 12 is adjourned. Thank you. 13 (Wherein, the public hearing was 14 adjourned at 6:45 PM.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES Page 36 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 4 ) ss. 5 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 6 I, Kathleen Watson Brunsmann, a 7 Certified Court Reporter (MO), Certified Shorthand 8 Reporter (IL), Registered Professional Reporter, 9 Certified Realtime Reporter, do hereby certify that 10 the foregoing public meeting was taken by me to the 11 best of my ability and thereafter reduced to 12 typewriting. 13 14 ____________________________ 15 Kathleen Watson Brunsmann 16 RPR/CRR/CSR/CRR 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES A abide 16:16 ability 36:11 able 17:24 24:15 accomplishme... 12:8 account 22:22 accounting 24:25 acted 6:22 activities 20:10 actual 14:25 32:16 add 19:12 27:25 addition 18:21 31:4 additional 7:12 13:25 14:8 15:20,23 16:13 18:16 28:22 30:4,7 address 10:21 17:7 18:25 19:9 20:10,23,25 21:4,18 22:18 26:5 31:1 addressing 12:20 20:8 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note 14:21 Noted 5:3 Notice 6:9 8:7 Notices 8:9 November 5:14 number 12:14 15:4,5,7 23:24 O occur 32:16 October 29:24 officer 9:6 Oh 26:14 Okay 26:15 OMCI 25:20 once 15:10 ones 33:8 on-the-record 8:2 open 31:20 Opening 2:3 operate 19:24 21:19 22:6,15 23:14 operated 19:18 operating 23:5 23:10,15 operation 6:1 13:18 21:16 22:13 24:10,22 24:22 25:9,11 Operational 6:12 operations 12:2,9 15:12 22:11 opportunity 7:3 8:14 option 15:18,19 order 8:19 9:2 16:16 18:9 20:14 32:19 organizations 5:20,23,25 6:1 6:4,4,6 8:21 11:7 31:11,12 outside 9:25 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES 21:14,24 overall 27:14 28:4 overflow 12:15 overflows 12:22 14:15,18 overhead 16:22 23:7 overview 31:15 owner 28:23 P page 2:2 23:17 31:6 paid 11:2 26:8 parameters 11:10 part 12:18 21:11 22:20 participant 7:19 participant's 7:24 participate 7:18 8:2 participating 21:24 35:3 participation 34:7 parties 7:11 paved 10:20 18:24 pay 14:10 15:18 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21:20 21:21 23:3 33:20 procedural 6:12 7:1 Procedure 6:14 procedures 9:11 proceed 9:14 proceedings 5:1 6:13 7:5 8:7 10:2 process 29:14 31:7 product 33:2 Professional 36:8 program 1:9 3:8 11:18 12:1 13:7 13:17 14:5,11 17:3,5 22:18 29:5,13 project 12:18 15:8,8 24:1 projects 1:11 3:10 14:14,15 14:21 15:2 18:9 18:24 19:9,25 23:18,19,23 24:4,6,12,14,15 24:17 25:3,5,7 25:13,15 property 11:3 17:24 18:15,16 18:17 19:4,4,5 19:14,21 20:3 21:10 24:7 25:8 26:3,8,9,16,21 26:23,25 27:1,3 27:4,10,12,12 27:15,21,21,23 28:4,7,23 29:3 30:15 proposal 7:3 8:14 9:21 11:13 12:5 13:5,12 14:23,25 20:8 22:10 25:24 26:22 29:16,17 30:13 31:14,15 31:22 propose 15:22 22:9 proposed 5:18 6:17 9:5,20 11:9 12:16 13:21 23:4,17 27:10,25 29:9 proposing 6:9 13:6 15:13 16:5 22:23 24:3 25:8 25:10 26:7 27:19 28:3 provide 10:7 11:5 20:6 25:2 27:19,24 28:17 30:21 35:9 provided 8:18 27:18 31:18 provides 28:19 providing 22:13 public 1:12 3:11 4:14,17 5:6 8:3 8:6,11,16 11:6 19:24 21:15 22:1,25 24:22 24:23 32:3,9,11 32:15 33:21,25 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7:17 red 20:24 22:14 23:16 25:4,6,15 27:17,21 28:2 31:17 reduce 26:22 reduced 36:11 reduction 12:14 red/pink 20:20 reference 14:24 14:25 regard 18:1 20:25 31:22 regarding 5:16 8:7 9:5,10,25 10:3,22 Registered 36:8 regulate 20:14 regulations 20:12 regulatory 10:22 17:25 18:20 19:7,13,17,23 20:10 26:3,5 rehabilitate 15:14,15 rehabilitation 12:10 related 6:3 20:5 relieve 19:25 24:24 remaining 29:14 Remarks 2:3 render 11:10 repair 12:25 13:1 replace 25:24 26:9 Replacement 1:9 3:8 11:17 Report 7:21 Reporter 36:1,7 36:8,8,9 represent 5:24 16:8 21:3,14 31:12 representation 5:21 20:18 representative 4:17 5:23 represented 8:21 representing 11:7 request 15:22 requested 6:20 12:5 requests 7:12 required 10:12 10:21 requirements 10:22 requires 5:19 residential 5:24 19:19 residents 21:21 resolve 18:9 24:14 resolves 24:1 Resources 10:13 response 9:12 18:3 34:21,24 responses 20:16 responsibility 21:7,12,16 responsible 13:5 restriction 24:25 Restrooms 9:8 result 16:1 22:10 30:5 resulting 16:19 26:23 27:12 results 22:17 30:8 32:13,14 retirements 33:13 revenue 12:5 18:8 revenues 11:13 14:10 22:7 25:18 review 5:15 6:16 11:8 20:13 21:7 29:22 right 11:21 16:12 17:11,22 27:22 right-hand 20:21 28:20 31:9 River 17:13,14 17:15 RPR 3:19 RPR/CRR/CS... 36:16 rules 6:12 7:1 8:22 23:20 running 33:21 runoff 10:23 21:1,5 S savings 12:1 saw 20:19 29:10 30:2 says 31:13 scenario 23:5 scenarios 16:20 Schedule 6:12,14 Sean 4:16 second 30:11 31:13 Secretary-Tre... 4:20 section 14:25 see 14:21,24 16:1 16:18 20:4,19 20:21 21:13 23:11 29:8 31:6 31:9 seen 12:14 select 5:20 send 31:3 senior 33:5 separate 24:7 32:17 serve 21:9 serves 11:8 service 10:7,25 13:20 17:7,9 18:6 19:15,21 23:6 30:10,17 33:1 services 3:20 5:22 10:14 18:19 20:6 26:22 27:18,20 27:24 28:3,11 28:17,19,25 29:2 30:21 33:23 Session 8:11 sessions 8:4 set 25:19,21 31:1 32:9 sets 11:6 Setting 7:15,22 seven 10:11 18:16 19:4 25:5 25:23,25 33:18 sewer 1:8 3:7 4:8 9:19 12:11,21 12:23 15:15,15 16:3 19:7,18,25 21:15 22:3,25 sewers 15:16 18:8,23 19:24 21:20 22:7,14 22:15 23:14 sheet 8:17 15:6 21:11 23:24,25 Shorthand 36:7 shotgun 33:7 showed 30:14 shown 13:16 shows 11:1 18:17 23:22 30:5 side 28:12,20 30:2 31:14,16 sign 8:17,25 9:2 similar 12:12 single 16:2 sinks 10:9 sir 9:15 site 15:1 six 22:17 23:2 Slack 5:9 Slide 13:12 14:20 29:4 small 10:25 Snoke 4:19 socio-economic 6:3 soil 10:18 solve 12:24 solves 15:9 south 17:15 18:13 24:18 speak 8:17 9:3,5 31:24 34:19 Speakers 9:1 spend 11:21 spending 13:14 spent 25:2 Spokesperson 4:14 spread 15:6 23:24,25 ss 36:4 St 1:8 3:7,22 4:8 6:7 7:6 8:7,8 9:19 17:11,18 18:12 24:17 36:5 stability 13:4 staff 6:25 7:10 PUBLIC HEARING 5/11/2015 www.midwestlitigation.com Phone: 1.800.280.3376 Fax: 314.644.1334 MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES 10:1 29:15 standard 13:10 standards 10:12 start 15:24 23:18 starting 13:14 state 17:25 20:11 36:3 Steve 5:8 Steven 4:4 storage 14:17 storm 18:7,23 19:7,18,24,24 21:15,20,25 22:3,6,14,15,25 23:14 24:10 stormwater 1:11 3:10 5:17 6:11 8:13 10:16,19 10:23,25 12:21 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31:16 yellowish 21:13 Z zero 25:20,21 $ $1,193.00 29:1 $10.50 27:23 $12.00 28:7 $12.50 27:9 $16.10 27:13 $20.00 26:23 $26.00 19:20 $266,700.00 27:22 $3.60 27:11 $40.00 32:25 33:3 $40.72 16:5,20 $42.00 26:25 $44.72 16:21 $522.00 28:16,24 $53.00 20:2 $60.00 30:6 $60.60 28:1 $60.86 16:7 $62.00 26:20 $70,800.00 27:8 $70.00 33:4 $771.00 28:18 $8.00 19:14 $96.00 30:9 $96.01 16:25 1 1 11:13 29:18 1,154 20:23 1,363 21:15 1.1 14:4 1.2 28:5 1.5 13:14,14,17 14:1 15:25 16:15 10 29:21 10th 33:18 100 14:10 22:17 109 17:19 11 1:13 3:12 8:3 14:20 11th 3:21 8:4 13th 35:7 15 6:5 11:7 16 16:19 23:5,10 28:14 1600 15:14 17 14:12 16:20 23:10 24:15 17th 33:18 1900 12:11 2 2,638 21:2 2.26 14:9 20 1:11 3:10 14:13 16:8 23:11 2000 5:14 11:5 2006 35:7 2013 11:20 2015 1:13 3:12 6:8,13,16,21 7:9 8:5 29:15 29:18,21,24 31:14 2016 11:13,20 12:7 16:4 28:23 29:25 32:8 2020 11:14 16:25 24:4 28:18 30:6 30:8 22 23:11 226 14:14 23 23:11 24 14:16 18:14 25 23:20 24:4,11 26th 6:8,16 7:9 29:15 3 30th 11:14 16:4 31 2:5 29:4 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