HomeMy Public PortalAboutHarris, BillI,
RELEASE OF TAPES TO IDAHO BICENTENNIAL COMMISSION'S ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
737'
t / /'1 - rt i S'
on this day,
hereby give and grant to the Idaho State Historical Society and the Idaho
Btcentennial Commission as a donation for such scholarly and educational
purposes as the Idaho Historical Society and the Idaho Bicentennial
Commission shall determine, the tape recordings made today, and all
literary rights therein.
(Z.
/X-171,‘
(signed)
('�_ (witness)
Bill Harris
with Joe Bennett
and Doug Jones
April 8, 1976
Page 1.
DOUR "Today's date is April 8, 1976. We are conducting an intervie- between Mr.
Bill Harris and Mr. Joe Bennett for the purpose of recording oral history.
This conversation is tape recorded at the Forest Supervisor's office in McCall.
The time now is approximately 1.0:00 a.m."
JOE "I want to ask you about yourself first Bill. Where was you born. Bill?"
BILL "I was born in Portland in 1920. My brother injured his hin Bud they had him
in several hospitals. My mother at the time I was born was in Portland with
Tom."
,10E "What was it that happened to his hip?"
DILL "Really, I don't think they ever knew, Joe. He aeparently had injured it some
way. What they used to say was that he had TB of the bone or something. Of
course this has been a good many years ago when they didn't know as much as
they::do now. So he was on crutches all of his life."
JOEL "Where did you go to school?'
BILL "Well, first I went to Donnelly in 1975. Dad had the store down there so we
went to: school. I don't know when we left there and then we went to Riggins
and completed the school year there."
JOE "There was just you and Tom in the family?"
,BILL "Yeah"
JOE "Can you tell us about your dad? Where was your dad born?"
BILL "Dad was born in Pasley, Oregon,"
"
P a g e 2
J O E " I s t h a t o u t f r o m B u r n s ? "
B I L L " Y e a h , i t ' s j u s t d o w n s o u t h o f L a k e v i e w . "
J O E " W a s t h a t a l l c a t t l e c o u n t r y ? "
B I L L " O h y e a h , I w o u l d s a y s o . T h e n t h e y m o v e d t o B u r n s w h e n d a d w a s y o u n g . T h e y
l i v e d i n B u r n s f o r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s t i l l d a d t h e n c a m e o v e r i n t o t h e C a l d w e l l
a r e a . B u t i n B u r n s d a d ' s f a t h e r w a s a c a r p e n t e r . A m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s h e u s e d
t o m a k e c o f f i n s . I f h e w o u l d g e t s o m e g o o d w o o d h e ' d m a k e i t i n t o a c o f f i n .
H e h a d t h e f i r l s o u t t h e r e l i n i n g i t . I g u e s s B u r n s w a s q u i t e a w i l d a n d
w o o l y t o w n . O f c o u r s e t h e I n d i a n s l i v e d r i g h t n e x t t o t o w n . Y e a r s a g o w e w e n t
b a c k a n d i t m u s t h a v e b e e n i n ' 2 6 , ' 2 7 , a l o n g i n t h o s e d a y s . T h e r e w a s a n
o l d I n d i a n u p t h e r e , O l d S c a r f a c e C h a r l i e . D a d s t o p p e d a t t h e s h o r e t h e r e i n
B u r n s a n d b o u g h t a c a n o f c o f f e e a n d a s a c k o f s u g a r . W e a l l w e n t o u t t o s e e
S c a r f a c e C h a r l i e , H e r e c o g n i z e d m e . B u t t h e y w e r e s t i l l l i v i n g o n t h e o u t -
s k i r t s o f t o w n i n t e e p e e s a n d s o f o r t h . "
J O E " W h a t d i d t h e y d o f o r a l i v i n g ? D i d t h e y l i v e o f f t h e g o v e r n m e n t ? "
B I L L " N o , t h a t ' s b e f o r e B I A r u i n e d a l l t h e I n d i a n s . T h e y w e r e p r e t t y m u c h o n t h e i r
o w n . I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e h e l l t h e y d i d d o , J o e . "
J O E " D i d y o u r d a d e v e r r a i s e c a t t l e ? "
B I L L " N o , o h d a d u s e d t o p u n c h c a t t l e . H e u s e d t o t e l l m e a b o u t e x e r c i s i n g h o r s e s .
B u t i n t h o s e d a y s a n y b o d y t h a t h a d a n y m o n e y h a d a r a c e h o r s e o r t w o . "
J O E " W h e n d i d h e g o t o C a l d w e l l ? "
B I L L " I d o n ' t k n o w , i t m u s t h a v e b e e n w h e n h e w a s m a y b e t h i r t e e n , f o u r t e e n . "
"
P a g e 3
J O E " O h , h i s f o l k * m o v e d t h e r e . "
B I L L " N o , I t h i n k d a d l e f t h o m e . H e u s e d t o t a l k a b o u t w o r k i n g o n r a n c h e s o u t t h e r e .
T h e n h e g o t a j o b d r i v i n g d e l i v e r y t r u c k f o r a s t o r e t h e r e i n C a l d w e l l . H e
w o r k e d t h e r e f o r I d o n ' t k n o w h o w l o n g . H e w a s i n C a l d w e l l q u i t e a f e w y e a r s .
T h e n h e e v e n t u a l l y b o u g h t t h e s t o r e b u s i n e s s . "
J O E " D i d h e h a d e C o u p l e s a s a p a r t n e r ? "
B I L L " N o , w h e n t h e y h a d t h e s t o r e i n C a l d w e l l i t w a s B a k e r b H a r r i s . "
J O E " W h a t k i n d o f a s t o r e w a s i t ? "
B I L L " I t w a s g e n e r a l m e r c h a n d i s e . I n t h o s e d a y s i t w a s q u i t e a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t .
T h e y s u p p l i e d a l l t h e g r o c e r i e s t o t h e g o v e r n m e n t c o n s t r u c t i o n o f L a k e L o w e l l .
T h e y d i d n ' t h a v e t h e w h o l e s a l e w a r e h o u s e s . T h e g e n e r a l m e r c a n t i l e i n t h a t
c o u n t r y d o n e a l l t h e b u s i n e s s . O f c o u r s e , t h e y d i d f o r m a n y y e a r s b e c a u s e
e v e n w h e n w e w e r e i n W a r r e n i n t h e l a t e ' 3 0 ' s t h e F o r e s t S e r v i c e b o u g h t m o s t
o f t h e i r g r o c e r i e s f r o m d a d . T h e m i n e s b o u g h t f r o m d a d a n d t h e s i t u a t i o n i s
e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t n o w a s f a r a s g r o c e r i e s i s c o n c e r n e d . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e n
h e l e f t C a l d w e l l a n d c a m e u p h e r e b u t h a d h a d t o h a v e b e e n ' 1 3 o r ' 1 4 . I t w a s
d u r i n g W o r l d W a r I w h e n h e c a m e u p h e r e . T h i s i t - w h e r e w e w e r e l i v i n g w h e n I w a s
b o r n . W e l i v e d o u t a r o u n d t h e l a k e . A c t u a l l y o u r h o m e w a s h e r e , m y m o t h e r
j u s t h a p p e n e d t o b e i n P o r t l a n d . "
J O E " Y o u d o n ' t k n o w h o w h i m a n d C o u p l e s g o t t o b e p a r t n e r s ? "
B I L L
" T h e
o n l y t h i n g I k n o w a b o u t F r a n k , d a d g o t h i m u p h e r e t o r u n t h e s t o r e h e r e i n
M c C a l l . I I , m p r e t t y s u r e h e h a d t h e s t o r e i n C a l d w e l l . Y o u p r o b a b l y k n o w m o r e
a b o u t w h e n d a d c a m e t o M c C a l l t h a n I d o c a u s e I j u s t d o n ' t k n o w . "
Page 4
JOE "I know they bought out %e4:Willimas. Then evidently your dad bought Couples
out."
BILL "Well, I really don't think Frank had any money in. it. I think he was an
apparent partner or something of this kind but I don't think Frank had much in
it. Dad told me he actually came up here to buy something else, he didn't
come up here to buy that store. He'd been up here before. I don'tknow where
it was, Joe, but he came up to buy some other place. He'd known Frank for years.
I don'tknow 'whether they'd been in business before that or not."
JOE "Then Willimas and May took it over do you know whether they was just running
t 7 T,
j3E
it for your dad?"
"I don't know."
"Seems to me that they had in on a lease. They both worked for your dad. Did
he go to Donnelly then and buy a store?"
BILL "I think he had already bought that. Then he bought the store at Rigging.
When he bopght that I don't know."
JOE "Did he buy that from Homer Lavander?"
BILL "I don't know. I never knew much about that Riggins store. The only time we
were there was the winter of '26 when I was going to school there. Then after
that we Caere:=never in Riggins at all."
JOB "Wag talking about the Forest Service, one time I was on a fire and we were paid
off of Williams 6 May's checks."
BILL "Yeah, of course in those days they had little banksall over the country. There
was still a lot of people like dad that done a lot of the financing around."
Page 5
JOE "I think it was the same as Newt Willimas. He kept everybody's money in that
old safe. Newt showed me one time. He picked up a sack and told me this
belongs to Tom Pete. There was twothousand dollars worth of gold in that
sack. Then he had others and he said this belongs to so and so and so on.
So I think your dad did the same thing. He went from Higgins to Warren, was it?1Q
BILL "Fundamentally, Joe. He had the store at Burgdorf but it never amounted to
too much. But I think Andy was in there. When dad first bought Burgdorf
Oliver Manus was running the place and ran it till '27, '28."
JOE "Who owned the place when your dad bought it?"
?'ILL "Fred Burgdorf, he bought it directly from Fred. Then Andy Canner was there for
a couple of years and then dad took it over."
;JE "Well, did your dad have interest in the hot springs when Andy took over? The
Riggins hot springs?"
BILL "No"
JOE "I think Oliver come down here from Burgdorf and run a store here."
BILL "I don't know where Oliver went. Isn't his boy the ditor of the paper in
Meridian or something?"
JOE "Seemed like he is."
BILL "I think it's his boy."
JOE "That the only child he had was a boy."
BILL "I thought he had a girl."
JOE "'Yeah, he did too."
BILL "I can't remember, Joe. ThisJadamn near before my time!"
0E "Well, that stere at Warren, they was mining quite a bit when you run that."
BILL "Oh yeah, the dreldges were allliming. I don'tknow really when he went in
there either, Joe. I would guess it was probably in the early 130's but I
really don't know."
JOE "Was there more than one dredge there?"
BILL "Oh yeah, there was three there at one time, Joe."
30E "Did Baumoff and Fisher own all three of those? Or just one?"
BILL "Yeah, one I think so. I think Andy Cavanah was dredging in there before any
of them. Then Baumoff and Fisher came in."
JOE "Who had that Mickey Mouse??
IIILL "Well, I don't know. They were dredging on some ground that McDowell was
interested in and this Mrs. Long. I remember going over there, you remember
the Longs. Well, his daughter, I can remember her coming in years later.
She was trying to acquire some property that her dad had had in long past years
or something. They were on that Mickey Mouse boat I think. But I don't know
the really situation at Warren very much. The only time I was over there, Joe,
would be on Labor Day or something of this kind. Then I drove truck in there
in later years when we were hauling junk in there. I used to drive truck for
dad for a long time."
JOE "Yeah, I know Tom drove truck too for your dad."
(BILL "Yeah"
JOE "Was that when he started getting interested in mining property when he went to
Warren?"
Page 7
BILL "Oh no, it was years before then."
JOE "When he was still in the store here."
BILL "I would say so, yeah. He was grub staking old Leaf Holt." (Az%�i. 7l'/.,?c_
//
E f /pfeE < S4 // •
JOE 'bn that Holt property, he finally owned that, didn't he?" h���
BILL "No, I don't know who had the controlling interest. I would suppose Leaf did
though. Dad had quite a bunch of stock in that damn thing. Of course Jay
i
Czizet went in there he raised her up and put a block under her and then they
moved into the UVX and they put it on a paying basis. Old Czizer dabbled
around over there in -Warren for a good many years. I don't know when he went
up to the Anchor but he was up to the Anchor for a year or so promoting it."
=DF "He was a good promoter." CGa /9„' "(G a/5 o
.vi /f?" a 5-.4. // dr?TH-
ILL "Oh, you bet;" 1 ���-�`�
(� h4-/z�ti
'JOE "I remember A.R. Cruisin told me one time they had a meeting in Boise for the
Unity, a bunch of the stockholders. They had him and I believe Howly to go down
and go through Czizet's room, they thought they was, or he was high grading
on them. They found three thousand dollars worth of gold. So they jumped him
about it. He said, Sihat are you gonna do about it?'. Well they couldn't
do nothing because they wanted him to go back east and raise some money. He
was the only one of the bunch that knew anything about it. They let him keep
the three thousand dollars worth of gold he'd high graded P"
BILL "Yeah, back in the old days they had to get to the east to keep those mines
going. No way they could dig enough to keep going. That guy in there at
Page 8
BILL "Buffalo Hump, Sheepherder Bill. They had this big meeting about keeping the
road open into Buffalo Hump. One meeting they got this meeting going and old
Billy and they were all talking about keeping this road open and the horses
they were gonna have to use and all of this. And Billy said, 'Oh to hell with
the road to Buffalo Hump. Keep the road open to Pittsburgh;' That's where
the money was coming from."
JOE "Yeah, there sure was a lot of money sunk in a lot of holes in the back
country."
END OF SIDE 016E
OE "Your dad was interested in a lot of different things I think, Bill. Did he
invest in a lot of things besides the store?"
BOB "I don't believe so, Joe. If you're talking about stocks and bonds and these
things. He had a some land scattered all over and this type of thing. He
wasn't too interested in stocks and that type of thing. Dad didn't do much in
the store business after the war or even during the war because of the fact
that he quit running the thing when they came out with rationing food stamps. He
threw everything in the air and left."
JOE "what year was it he bought Burgdorf? Do you know?"
BILL "I don't know. I got the deed some place. But it was long in the early '20's.
JOE "well, do you know where Fred Burgdorf went to?"
BILL "Well, she was dead. I don't know when she died. But Fred stayed at Burgdorf
for a number of years during the summer. I think he lived in Weiser during
the winter, yeah."
Page 9
JOE "I see where he also had some cattle down on the South Fork, Fred did."
5/e
BILL "Well, he, and Freeman Nefkin used to run cattle up there. They'd bring them
to Burgdorf in the summer and take them down to the South Fork in the winter.
They ran cattle in there for years, principally to butcher. Fred used to
butcher a lot of cattle and sell them to the mines."
JOE 'Yeah, I think that's where he made most of his money."
BILL "I wu uld say so."
•�� �� 4
JOE "Do you know who owns that range ranch now?"
BILL "No, I think one of those places down there is either the Thompson place. I'm
sure it's on down the river. It's not up as far as where Barkell's are. I
don't think any of the old timers ewn anything in there anymore. It's changed
hands as a matter of fact two or three times. Hettenger bought the Thompson
place and I don't know who bought the place that Fred owned."
JOE "Then your dad finally retired and lived in Riggins then."
BILL "Yeah, fundamentally."
JOE "He went to California there for quite a shile. Did he run a store there?"
BILL "Well, he had a store down there years and years ago down at Newport Beach.
I don't even knew when that was. It probably was in the '30's. Did you ever
know the Ackley's? They weee from Caldwell."
JOE "Yeah"
BILL "Hew died here not too long ago. Dad had Orville down there running the store
in New Port. I don't know what the situation was but in any event Orville
committed suicide. This is long before my time, I swear. I think probably dad
got rid of the store shortly after Orville died. Dad had a home in Oceanside
and they spend the winters down there for years."
Page 10
JOE "Did Paul, what's -his -name, did he run the store for your dad here in Donnelly,
Paul Hinkey?"
BILL "Claude, no Claude was never down there. He ran the store in Warren."
JOE "Faul Wallace run the store or did he work for your dad?"
BILL "No, I don't know."
JOE "Then Stockwell bought your dad's store there in Donnelly."
BILL "Yeah, the Davidson's. Frank ended up with a store here in McCall but I think
he was swapping and trading with Donny on that store in Donnelly.
JOE "Well, letla find out something about yourself. What's your occupation, Bill?"
LL "I'm an engineer."
"Can you tell us some of the different places you've done surveying?"
a "Mostly in the west here, Joe. I spent ten or fifteen years in Alaska."
JOE "What did you do up there? What was that for? Homestead land?"
BILL "No, all for mining companies."
JOE "You surveyed out the mining claims."
BILL "Yeah, for a while I had a diamond drill outfit and we used to work and so
forth with the diamond drill. We worked all over Alaska."
JOE "What part of Alaska was it, Bill?"
ILL "Everywhere, I was all over. I worked three years up north of the Artie Circle
about where they're running this pipe line through now. Most of the time I
spent in the southeast, Juneau, Haines."
OE "Have you done a lot of that work here?"
Page 11
BILL 'bh yes, not too much locally."
JOE "I remember seemed like you were surveying the road going down the river."
BILL "Oh yeah, the Salmon. From Whitebird to Cottonwood."
JOE "Did you do that through the state?"
BILL "Yes, fundamentally. What we were doing in there Joe, they used to do all
this aerial photography, they still do a lot of it. We were running control
for aerial photography."
JOE "That'sr~why you see all these marks across the highway. Bill, like here in
the valley can you tell us. You can go up here on the mountains and some
of these roads that go east and west and they're pretty crooked. Is that
the fault of the surveyor?"
BILL "I'd say it was the lack of surveying, Joe;"
JOE "I was just wondering if the surveyor was off that much or the farmers just
didn't put their fences on the line."
BILL "Well, I'd say it was fifty-fifty. As time went on the surveying accuracies
t
increased donsiderably. But back when I first started working around here in
the '40's it left a lot to be desired. Some places down there in the valley
that you're speaking of on the township lines and so forth where they're off
anywhere from half a mile in joinitigrthe townships together. Through the valley
the lines should have been run reasonably straight."
JOE "On this mining you surveyed, where you had the diamond drill. What did you do
there? Just what was the object? To establish their holdings?"
i
Page 12
BILL "Oh yes. These companies will go in, we still do the same thing although I
quit going to Alaska. That's for younger people than I am' A company will go
in and they will want to explore a certain area. We did practically all the
work for exploration, Joe. They might say in a square mile out here we want
to put some drills in and we want to do some exploration on it. So they go,
they say to go in and locate claims in that area. This is the only way that
can acquire the right to go in there and not have some one else go in on them.
So we just go out and locabeclaims on the area. In Alaska the country is so
rough southeast in there that it's difficult to get any kind or equipment
in there. So we had a couple packsack drills. They are a drill you can put on
your back but we could drill a hundred, hundred and twenty feet. The country
is so heavy with timber that aerial photograph, you just can't use it."
JOE "Then you worked down in Arizona and that country."
BILL "Oh, I have, yes."
JOE "It keeps you pretty busy."
BILL "Well, we have been. We don't know what to look forward to this year. Mining
is bad this year. It has been for several years. Most of theta work we've been
doing for the past few years is for the petroleum people. But their budgets
apperently are going to be whacked seriously this year."
JOE "How do you do same of that surveying around town, Bill? Did you have to survey
pretty accurately around the lake here?"
BILL "We do anymore. We all use a sort of a distance meter which is way, way over
whatever we had before. If you're chaining very far with those steel chains and
Page 13
BILL "you didn't correct for change in temperature you're off considerably. That's
because of the expansion or contraction of the tape. If the chain is lying
on the ground if you don't use a balance or if you don't put a certain tension
on it then it's subject to a small error, Joe."
JOE "It's pretty hard to find these corners some times isn't it here?"
BILL "bell, it's impossible to find a lot of them. You hatre to do something to
re-establish them although in days gone by we seren't too careful about that
either: With the distance meter though it makes it so easy for us. We can
run a eight or ten mile out there out in the valley if we know where we're
going and know what'to do. Whereas a few years back before the advent of the
distance meter it would take you a week to run around one of those things.
That was a tremendous job. So we're certainly doing a lot better work now."
'JOE "I know when they run 55, they come over to my place and looked for a corner
stone to tie on to. At one time there was a rock about that big around and
about that high there and chiseled a lot of stuff on it. When they graded
that road they tore it out with the grader and,:Tushed it over next to the fence.
Somebody hauled that rock off, probably thought it was Indian writings or
something. That thing mudthave weighed a thousand pounds. Somebody stole that
rock."
BILL "In the main part of the valley down there there are very few, back in the
'80's many of the corners were just wooden posts. Generally speaking the
easiest place and sometimes the only place is when you get out in the timber.
Page 14
BILL "You can find the bearing trees and so forth and maybe witness points, too.
As time goes on we do a little better work. I've surveyed things out around
the lake here, Joe, years gone by when that lake frontage was thirty, fortyv
dollars a foot. You couldn't spend very much time or the first thing you knew
you had more in the lot for the survey than the lot was worth. Now the lots
are worth quite a little money so it makes it possible for you to charge
more for the survey and do a good job. It's all a matter of economics. Like
when the government survey came through here and this land was worth ten
cents an acre it didn't make much difference if they weee ten feet off, who
cared?"
JOE "You surveyed where they are gonna put this new sewer line around the lake."
r m. "Yes"
"Was that quite a job to do, Bill?"
BILL "No, but we're still looking at the job coming up. All we've done now is just
fly it and we've done a little field.."
END OF SIDE TWO
JOE "Let's get that again about the sewer line. You said something about part of
it being in the lake."
BILL 'bh yes, there will be a lot of it in the lake, Joe. The things people don't
understand that the lines that are in the lake are gravity lines, they're not
pressure lines. If there should be a leak in one of them the sewage isn't
Page 15
BILL "coming out, the lake is coming in. Actually as far as pollution is concerned
there won't be any."
JOE "Then they have certain stations where they connect to that."
BILL "Yea, end it'll be pumped."
JOE "One house won't be, there will be several houses connected to it."
BILL 'bh yes, with the situation like that what you do, Joe, is we'll come from
both ways into a pumping station then both of these will come from up here and
down here. They'll come in and be pumped out. Of course, that is a pressure
line when they're pumping out. But bulk of the lines in the lake will be
gravity lines. We hope that we can get the preliminary fields taken and so
forth this summer and be ready to go for bids next spring. We've only been
at this for five years, Joe:"
6 "Bill, back in '28, '29 along in there I was for four years on the County
Health Board. I and Louie Williams went and checked thelake from out there.
Some of them had septic tanks and some of them was running their sewage directly
in the lake. Even then we had pollution problems. One woman said, 'My
husband is so finicky I know he isn't doing that direct in there.' but he was.
He didn't have a septic tank. They had a nice house though."
BILL "I'm sure you recall back in the old days when you go out to some 61d prospectors
cabin and the place they put their outhouse was over the creek so they
wouldn't have to dig a hole: Sewage disposal was real simple, you just let it
right on down the creek."
Page 16
DOUG "I was wondering about some of the buildings at Burgdorf. Were most of those
built by your father? Like the hotel that's up there now."
BILL "Yes, dad built most of them. The buildings that are out in back were built
before we came there. I guess the two houses are still setting up there, what
we called the hon!ymoon cabin. The little red cabin that's right across from
the pool that was there. Chris Arnold was supposed to have built that. There
were some barns there. I think that the barns though that were there years
gone back pretty well caved in. Dad built a store in there and it caved in.
The old hotel was right across Pram the swimming pool. $ was in such bad
repair that dad started to tear it down and when I got there didn't have much
choice. I had to go ahead and tear the thing down. There was a part of that
that was really old. It was a frame outside and they kept building on and
patching up. Doing this, that and the other thing. But inside of that there
was an 61d frame log cabin that had apparently been there for a thousand years.
We pulled square nails out of that. They haven't used those for quite a few years."
JOE "Probably some of them made right there."
BILL "Could've been. They're about the only buildings that were there. Several of
those buildings back up there that were build by the tie hackers in the '30's.
Fellas that would come there and work and they just built M./cabin on the place.
I don't know when that red barn and the grdhery that set along side of it were
built. It's been there ever since I can remember. It's not that old. The old
log barns that were on down the other way I think they're pretty well caved in."
Page 17
ft'
/ 9 7 z- —'7 s )
JOE "Like Sue Kerr, she got a cabin up there. Do they own the land?"
BILL "No, that's on a Forest Service lease. As I understand they're now going to
terminate these. They're going to let these people stay there the rest of their
life. Then they'll take those out. Dad got the big idea in the '40's about
the time I come into the picture, he was gonna let people build places up
there. I didn't completely agree with that so we stopped that. Now the place
is intact, Joe. There isn't anyone that holds anything in there except us."
JOE "How many stores is ;your property?"
BILL "A hundred and sixty, Burgdorf homesteaded it. I got the homestead papers
some damn place. He homesteaddin 1903, I think. But previous to that I've
always understood that there was supposed to have been a fella that went in there
as early as 1848 or 1850. A guy by the name of Wolfe. He squatted on this
thing and was there when the gold rush started and the whole bit. Apparently
Fred went over and bought his squatters right to the thing. I don't know
when Fred went there. He didn't homestead until 1903 but he had been there
quite a long while before that."
JOE 'bn some of these surveys you've done, have you hit any old places that were
owned by squatters rights?"
i n
IBILL 'hd
IJOE "There was a lot that squatted here when they first come in."
',BILL "Well, anything I know about in the valley was homesteaded."
le4
Page 18
JOE "That Burgdorf place is the only one there close that joins the property till
you get down on the Secesh."
BILL "Well, there at Squaw Meadows there's a homestead. Theq over on Secesh Ubba
patented 650 acres in there. That's the only patented land in there which
does down the creek. Of course over its the Warren area there are some patented
mining claims. There are a few patented mining claims in the Bear Creek area."
JOE "How about War Eagle?" ( /V4 l/ !V��
-� c/t. s e ..:./} }
BILL "I d,,n't know whether there is anything patented in there or not. There might
be."
'^,B "Is there any up Grouse Creep there?"
:ALL "I don't know, I would doubt it. I don't think any of that War Eagle ground,
in fact I know for quite a long ways up there, there isn't anything patented."
JOE "How do they go about patenting that for mining claims, what do they have to do?"
BILL "Well, it quite a process. Of course where we enter into it is the survey.
If they take it by a legal subdivision they don't need a survey. They just
apply for a patent just as you would I suppose a homestead."
JOE "I' you go out there to where this land hasn't been surveyed and file on a
twenty acre mining claim, you aan stake that in any shape."
IIBILL "Yeah, there are two types of claims there's placer and lode. You can take a
placer by a legal subdivision, that is northwest quarter of the northwest
quarter and all this. If you do that it doesn't require a survey. If you take
what they call a stream placer or if you're on unsurveyed land then you have to
Page 19
BILL "have a survey."
DOUG "How long was Burgdorf run as a resort? When did they close up the hotel?"
BILL "Well, that I couldn't say. I don't have an idea because I got out of the
picture there in about '65, '66. So what happened after that time I have
no idea."
DOUG "Was it '65 or '66 when yotx'son took it over?"
BILL "Approximately, maybe '67."
JOE "Well, you have two children, don't you? A boy and a girl."
TLL "Yeah"
"They own it jointly."
__:i,l. "Yes, I kept a ten year tenency on it because they were both seventeen or
eighteen. I didn't want them to do anything with it immediately. Principally
to wait till they get their feet on the ground and get a little more sense."
DOUG "The hotel was run up to '65 or 166?"
)BILL "Spasmodically. We first went in there in '48. For several years in there
during the early '50's we used to have a ldt of tourists. Then people got
a little more affluent and the place got a little more run down and there were
fewer and fewer people who wanted to look at a cook storve and go out back to
the outhouse. I'd sayb the mid '50's it was re w y pretty well shot as far as
tourists. Without putting a lot of monty into it and I mean a lot. And the
pool, when the state adopted the code down here they neglected to put in any-
thing about swimming pools. So we kept running it for a while until P g they finally
wok* up that they didn't have this law."
IDOUG "Who built the master cabin up there? The one with a big fireplace and picture
Page 20
DOUG "windows."
BILL "I built that."
DOUG "What year was that built in?"
BILL "Jesus, I don't have any idea. When Hazel and I first,moved up there we
started building it. It's one of those continuing processes."
DOUG "I understand that when Fred Burgdorf had the property that there were two
large pools, is that correct?"
BILL "No, there was a division down the middle. They didn't have any swimming
suits. You've been there, I'm sure."
DOUG "Yeah"
: LL "There was two hot pools. There used to be a board petition and the ladies
were on that side and the men are on this side. There used to be a board
fence around it."
DOUG "But is that the original pool that is there?"
BILL "Well, not really. Dad rebuilt the thing in the late '20's. Put new logs in
it because they were all rotting out. It got to leaking so bad of course it
still did. But he did have to put new logs in it."
DOUG "How many gallons per minute dues the spring run?"
BILL "To my recollection it flows about six hundred gallons a minute."
JOE "You started to say something about the pool when they stopped you and a
different code. I saw something about it was hard on the hot springs because
they didn't chlorinate the water."
BILL "No, under the code what happened..of course at that time I was living at
Page 21
BILL "Boise and plenty active in all of these municipal projects and all kinds of
junk when I was down in there. They adopted the sanitary code that came out of
Utah. Utah had a law or something on the book in regard to swimming pools.
So when the state of Idaho adopted this code they took it practically verbatum
from Utah. Jammed it into force here but they didn't realize that Utah had
a seperate law that covered swimming pools. They got this thing through and
they didn't cover swimming pools: Any pool that is on a commercial basis,
w.1if you were running Burgdorf pool now and you were charging; people to go
in you would have to chlorinate it. I believe you have to have a trough that
goes around it. Also I don't think you can get by with anything but concrete."
END OF SIDE THREE
DOUG "What you think the futus'of Burgdorf will be if the Forest Service does put
the road through which appears that they are intent upon doing? Do you think
that you sont.:will sell it?"
BILL "If you can figure out what he's thinking you're way ahead of me. I have no
idea."
DOUG "Fait enough"
BILL "I looked at that road before it started. This has been a good many years
ago when I was still sharp shooting around in that type of work. The job
looked too big for me. I didn't want to tackle it. I wanted the road that they
never built that went from Secesh Meadows to the South Fork. There was about
six or seven miles in there. We don't know how much information we are getting
Page 22
BILL "from the Forest. They contend that they're only going up to the forks of the
road with this which would be a little advantage as far as any tourism is
concerned. It would be a turn around type thing. A person would drive up there
then turn around and come back. They wouldn't have any place to go unless they
wanted to battle that road down on French Creek., which takes a pretty hearty
soul. By God, I went down over that road one time. It was unreal. Down there
in an old Model A. I was hanging on the outsides and said boys I'm gonna
jump: If you think that wasn't hairy."
JOE "Did you ever see where old timers used to do down?"
BILL "That was the road we were on."
JOE "They went right straight down. I've never seen anything like it. I hunted
in there."
?. "That had to have been maybe '27, '28. I don't know what the devil we were
doing down there. I was just petrified. You could spit for four miles. There
was just two tracks going down there."
DOUG "As I understand it the Forest Service contends that there are no structures
at Burgdorf that are more than twenty or thirty years old. From what you're
saying it sounds as though that's not exactly accurate."
BILL "No, there are some of those places that were there when I first recall being
there, which was in the '20's. That old windless, I don't know what happened
to it. It was still there when I left. That was a tragedy. I hung a lot of
cows up on that thing. Dad and I used to butcher a lot up there. We used to
Page 23
BILL "butcher all the meat that went to Warren. Dad had a butcher over there, old
Harry Marsh. But old Harry quite often wouldn't make it, so we'd murder these
old brutes. It had a great big wheel on it, twenty or thirty feet across.
Hook those old hooks into the old cow and away it would go. Wheet.it up there
and start whacking at it. I noticed that was gone. Chris Huddle planted that
tree after that house was built there at Burgdorf. I haven't seen it for
years. Even when I was a kid it was a pretty good sized tree. So I don't
know when those houses were built. The old Burgdorf house and the honeymoon
cabin are originals. As you go into Burgdorf you go right straight ahead and
run right into them.
MUG "They sit that close to the road? Oh I see, not following the road."
;ILL "No, you don't make the turn there that goes through."
JOE "I saw that swimming pool and that board fence was taken down. Of course, we had
swimming suits on."
(BILL "The first swimming suits that ever came in there came when old Oliver Manus
had the place. They came out of the natatorium. If those weren't the dampest
things you ever saw. The natatorium in Boise, they bought new suits or done
some cock-eyed thing. We acquired all the suits from them. Those old gray
suits and it looked like you were going to a full dressed ball."
'JOE "I remember I had one reached clear down to my knees."
I'BILL "You were fully clothed."
'DOUG "Was there more gamut Burgdorf than there is now?"
(BILL "I'm not a hunter, I don't know. There used to be quite a lot of game up there.
I don't know what the situation is now."
Page 24
JOE 'What was the name of that old guy that used to sing in poetry?"
BILL 'WA George Molts."
JOE "Did he die up there, Bill?"
BILL "No, eventually ended up in Orofino in the old home of some sort and he died
up there. No, I never knew how old he was but he had to be well into his
hundreds."
JOE "I think Rin Wahn I saw one time. I went in one time with Crawford McBride
when he was taking the mail. We had to go around by Riggins and French Creek
to take the mail into Warren. When we come back that night we stopped and I
was fishing down there on the lower end of French Creek where those cabins are."
RILL "Yeah, Rin lived down there for a long time."
;OE Yeah, he come out of there and he just had his underwear on. He was sick in
bed. He heard me out there and he come out and he said, 'Joe, I want you to
tell George I'm dying.' George Schaffer. I said, 'O.K. Rin, I will.' He never
said hello or nothing just that he was dying. And by gosh he was, too, he
died. So I called George and told him about it."
DOUG "Do you know if there's any evidence that any Indians ever inhabited Burgdorf
or used Burgdorf at all?"
BILL "I don't know. You can find arrowheaddt "down in the creek, the Jeanette Creek.
I've seen some of them that have come out of there. We put a new foodation
under what we called the 'little red cabin' it's an old cabin that's right by
the pool there. When we did old Ed Heins was out there and he dug up what
Page 25
BILL
DOUG
BILL
JOE
"appeared to be one of those Indian bowls that they used to grind grain. It
was a stone that:: had been hollowed out. It came out from where that house
was. Other than that I don't know. Of course this is something that, who
cares? I mean years ago."
"I was talking to the state archeologist in Boise. He asserted that that,.
was another reason for not putting the road through, commercializing it."
"There is an old dump down there. Before they put that in I do want to go
down through that old dump. -II keepthinking I'm the only one that knows it's
there, but I may not be either. We got a bunch of those, never did know
what the devil those things were, they were old Chinese gismos. They were
brown pot about this big around, it would come up to a neck and then they kind
of flared, Joe. There used to be a lot of them around those old Chinese
diggings. There was several of those in there and then a bunch of other junk
that was in that old dump."
"34ok Park's wife Louise gave my wife a half gallon *whiskey jug that she found
in a mine up there. This was years ago and ray wife's got that. She give it
to my son last summer."
ILL "I found one of those I think it was Elkhorn Whiskey or something. t had the
white writing on it and of course the bottle had turned purple. It was in
perfect shape. I found it up there on Logan Creek up out of Big Creek. They
used to use a lot of those jugs in the old days when they used to use the cross
k
Y cut saw, Joe. They used to take Kerosene out to keep pitch off the saw. They
a
Page 26
BILL "used to carry those jugs out, as well as they might take a little nip once in
a while if they did happen to have a jug with them. So you find them in some
pretty odd places."
JOE 'bne time I was up on a peak over here. I was setting up on this peak and it
was kind of steep where I was stepping and my heels was kind of digging in.
I thought I bet nobody ever been up on this peak before. All at once I
kicked out a whickey bottle; I left it there like a fool. It was buried in
under this ground. So I knew I hadn't been the first one::up there."
BILL "You look back but in those days, who in the hell cared, Joe?"
l'OUG "Do you know if the Chinese were ever up at Burgdorf much?"
a.L "I'd say not too much. Burgdorf by in large was always kind of a resort and
a way station and this type of thing. As far as there being any large camp
or anything of that kin4 there newer was."
JOE "They didn't mine there."
BILL "No, there was mining all around it but;as far as Burgdorf itself, it was
principally a way station. Of course years ago it was known as Resort. The
first post office was Resort Post Office, it wasn't Burgdorf."
END OF SIDE FOUR AND INTERVIEW
James Harris, "Jim", was born in 1881 and raised on a remote ranch in Burns, Oregon,
moving as a young man to Caldwell. He owned and operated a general store there in
partnership, marrying Louie Etta Roberts, who spent her early years in Alpha. He opened
a store in McCall, also in partnership, around 1915, with stores subsequently in Donnelly,
Warren, and the Golden Anchor Mine. He purchased the back country telephone
company about that time, and Burgdorf Hot Springs, from Fred Burgdorf in 1922. He
and Louie had two sons, Tom, who was tragically killed in a fire, and Bill, who became a
respected mining and civil engineer. Jim and his family spent winters in Oceanside,
California, where he also owned a grocery store. Later, they moved to Portland during
winter months. He and Louie divorced, and he married Edna Hinkley. They lived the
remainder of their days in Riggins., where he died in 1972.
Jim was known as a generous, constant man with a great sense of humor. He was an
astute investor. In addition to the stores and telephone company, he owned many
properties in Valley County, and elsewhere, including he Haight Ranch and the ranch
which has become the Nokes Ranch, Sylvan Beach, and property surrounding Harris
Cove, which is named for him. He was a generous silent partner for numerous businesses
in timber, banking, utilities and retail which were critical to the early growth of this
community. He lent the funds on a handshake to build the current Hotel McCall after it
burned. A rumor in McCall held that he was responsible for Sharlie being in the lake as
one of the sturgeon he purportedly transplanted from the Snake River.
(Oa 2/r°
/ViAALf
/1.4_itA.;z(
EDNA E. HARRIS /•-/C — 6 cj
Funeral services for Mrs. Edna
E. Harris, 76, a long-time Higgins
resident who passed away January
8th in the McCall Hospital, were
conducted Monday in the Higgins
I.O.O.F. Hall, Rev. Foster Shep-
hard officiated and graveside rites
were conducted in Lewiston by the
Riggins Rebekah Lodge, -Walker
Chapel of McCall was in charge of
local arrangements.
Mrs. Harris was the wife of re-
tired McCall and Riggins business-
man James Harris. She was born
in the PomeroyPeola area on Oct.
17, 1892, and attended school at
St. Mary's Convent at Genessee.
She was married in 1906 to Fred
Hinkley, and subsequently to Harris
in 19-42. Her affiliations included the
Riggins Rebekah Lodge and the
C air.h of Christ Scientist,
Survivors include her husband;
two sons, Clifford C. Hinkley, Lew,
iston and Claude A.Hinkley, Cas-
son City, Nev.; four grandchildren
and two great-grandchildren.
arris ,2- is -
Bill Harris, •77, of McCall, died
Thursday, Feb. 12, 1998, at a Boise
hospital.
Services will be conducted at 2 p.m.
Tuesday, Feb.17, at Payette Lake Ma-
sonic Lodge, McCall. Burial will follow
in the McCall Cemetery.
Bill was born Feb.22, 1920, at Port-
land, Ore., to James and Louie Harris.
He attended the first grade,in Donnel-
ly, Idaho, where his parents had a
store. They moved to Riggins, Idaho,
in 1927, and later to Monrovia, Calif.,
where he graduated from Monrovia
High School in 1937, then attended
Monrovia Junior College. He then en-
rolled in the Colorado School of Mines
at Golden, Colo., where he pursued a
degree in mining engineering. His ed-
ucation was interrupted by World War
II.Hejoined the U.S.Marine Corps and
served in Company B Engineers, 3rd
Platoon, Fourth Marine Division, see-
ing action in many of the main land-
ings in the Pacific Theater.
He returned to the School of Mines
after the war and graduated as an en-
gineer of mines in 1947. He was ap-
pointed a U.S. mineral surveyor that
same year, recently receiving a certifi-
cate from the Bureau of Land Man-
agement recognizing his 50 years of
distinguished service in that capacity.
He also received his professional en-
gineer/professional land surveyors
reoistration in 1951.
Bill spent his early summers in
Burgdorf, Idaho, where his parents
owned the resort. In addition to work-
ing at the resort, he worked with Wal-
ter Hovey Hill, a prominent mining en-
gineer and surveyor in Idaho history.
The mountains were always his fa-
vorite place to be and there are very
few of them in the West, including
Alaska, that do not have his footprints.
Bill was a member of Sigma Alpha
Epsilon, Toastmasters, the Idaho So-
ciety of Professional Engineers, the
Idaho Society of Professional Land
Surveyors, Payette Lake Lodge #91,
AF & AM, the Scottish; Rite., the York
Rite and El Korah Shrine.
He is survived by his wife, Julie of
McCall; his son, Dr. Scott Harris and
wife, Connie of McCall; daughter,
Gretchen Harris of Boise; son, Roger
Edwards of Donnelly; son, Bill Mitchell
of New Meadows; daughter, Dawn
Newmann and her husband, Ron of
Portland; son, Tom Kerr and his wife,
Faye of McCall;12 grandchildren; and
four great-grandchildren. He also has
his Marine buddies whom he served
with, and especially Joseph Maffesoli
of Michigan who occupied the fox
holes with him.
He was preceded in death by his
parents; a brother, Tom Harris; and an
infant daughter.
The family suggests that memorial
contributions may be made to the
Shriners Hospital for Children in Salt
Lake City.
Friends may call Monday from 1 to 7
p.m. at the Heikkila Funeral Chapel,
McCall.