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HomeMy Public PortalAboutSpielman FamilyCertainly one of the oldest living residents of Valley Coun- ty, J. E. Spielman, celebrated his 98th birthday in McCall on July 22. He spent the entire day greeting friends and relatives at the home of a eon, Ernie, where Mrs. Spielman served coffee, birthday cake, and doughnuts to the many who stopped to visit. Born in Hagerstown, Maryland, the elder Mr. Spielman lived in Kansas for a number of years before coming to Idaho as a young man. He settled in Long Valley in old Thunder City near the present town of Cascade. There he farmed, worked, and raised his family of five boys and one girl. He has since lived in Cascade, Donnelly, and Mc- Call, spending most of his adult years in Long Valley. For many years he has been a familiar figure in McCall. First -hand report makes local history «exciting" by Linda Hansen MCCALL— History can be dull. It can be an endless list of facts and figures. Remember learning about the Spanish Armada or the War of 1812? If only you could have met someone who lived lived during those periods of history, they might have been fascinating events. The In- termountain Historical and Genealogical Society makes local history exciting by having "old - timers" talk about their own ex- periences many years ago. When you leave a meeting you can almost hear the clomp of horses and the jingle of harnesses that pulled teams through towns that are no lonnger here. Thunder City was one of those towns. Dave Spielman and his brother Clarence from Star were Thursday night guests of the historical society, adding their own personal insights to the "dic- tionary- definition" of Thunder City as "the town that supplied the gold - miners on Thunder Mountain with `necessities. "' The city sported the usual assortment of buildings early in the century - two stores owned by the Logue family, a livery barn (owned by Ted Harwood's step- father), a blacksmith shop, a restaurant, and a saloon. And then there was Clarence Spielman, the first "cat doctor" in that end of the county. The Spielman family came to Thunder City from bt, se valley in 1912 so the father could manage a cattle ranch. The Spielman brothers don't really consider themselves `old- timers" in the area, but they do remember a 'efferent kind of life `way back .i when "everybody was poor." They remember now everybody used to help each other, be neigh- borly, and. "raise hell" in that little town. Dave and Clarence both recalled the time some "mule- skinners" were sent to build a road then got "snowed out" and ended up "laid out" as a result of the good time they had in the saloon. Clarence and his father arrived in Thunder City first, later to be joined by younger brother Dave and the rest of the family. Clarence recalled the family's move by mule team - "it kinda rubbed off on Dave," he laughed. By the-time Clarence was 14 years old, his dad bragged about his capabilities. He went to work in the hay fields, "traveling" with a threshing machine. At 16, he was driving freight teams into Knox (about a mile or two north of Warm Lake) and being a man in every respect. Dave recalled the time Clarence let him tag along for the day's journey that included gulping bootleg whiskey and two days' worth of reeling around, all for a mere three dollars! Clarence also chewed tobacco at a tender age but hid it well so young Dave and his friends wouldn't discover his secret. They did, however, and regretted it ever since. Ted Har- wood's mother caught her son, Dave, and another boy chewing the stuff, cut off two good plugs apiece and made tham sit on her back porch until every morsel was gone. As the saying goes, "boys will be boys" and when one brother recalled an incident from childhood, the other "topped it with a better tale. Both brothers agreed that the Logue stores were the main supply outlets for Thunder Mountain miners and the 16 townspeople, but they also provided a marvelous choice of tobacco and plenty of space under the warehouse to smoke without being seen by the grown -ups. "It's a wonder that warehouse full of hay and supplies never burned down," they both agreed. Big brothery Clarence taught "little" Dave many bad tricks, but Dave survived in spite of them. In fact, Dave pointed out, "I graduated from Cascade High School in 1922 as the smartest boy in my class." After a loud guffaw from Clarence, Dave admitted he was the only male graduate that year. He went to work as a meat cutter for Sollie Callender in Cascade and wanted to work up in the front of the shop "to talk to all the pretty girls," but Sollie kept him in the back room for three years, making sausage. During those early years in the Thunder City and Cascade areas, the two brothers recalled the great number of sheepmen. In fact, the Logues stocked their stores with stock salt that was mostly pur- chased by the sheepherders. At one time, a man named Van Deusen was the biggest independent sheepman in America. In addition to sheep, many local people imagined they could amass a fortune by raising and selling timothy seed in that fertile valley. Of course, cattle- raising flourished and audience member Mrs. Charles Cruickshank remarked. "The beef just doesn't taste as good nowadays." Neither Dave not Clarence knew exactly why, but speculated that it may have been the wild grass or the timothy upon which the cattle grazed. Dave, the meat cutter, recalled that good cuts of beef were rarely eaten by the cattlemen them- selves. "We ate the old cows," h said. "The rest were sent t Portland." Dave remembere always eating up the ribs, heart and liver first "because the: spoiled the quickest." Taking one last look arourn Thunder City, both brother recalled the problem of keepinj warm in winter, walking lonj -distances, and the low, low prig tags attached to everything. L 1913, the Spielmans lived in a house that cost nothing, got milk an( eggs free, raised vegetables, an( the father earned $40 a month with no income tax. Dave als( remembered walking a three -mill stretch to school, carrying hi! lunch in a four -pound lard bucket He also remembered that lunches froze in the cloakroom by noon, s( he would trade his lunch for classmate's beef jerky. With electric and oil heat hamburgers from a drive -in, an( sky -high rent and income taxes the good old days are gone - and s( is Thunder City. Like the demise of Vanwyck, the railroad pur an enc to the little town and it mergec with Vanwyck and Crawford int( Cascade. But you drive by the old site whenever you go south past Cascade and over the bridge. Thunder City was located about where Pat Allen's ranch is now. ROUGH DRAFT May :31, IV /3 Thursday, May 3rd, 1973 Speaker: Dave Spielman I'm kinda disappointed in the attendance I got when they heard about me, what we are going to do is to talk about Thundez City and what happened around there in our time, oh by the way there are some people who don't ,they know me,_ know my brother, /I'm Dave, this is Exazir Spielman. Actually in this end of the Valley he is known as Doc Spielman. He was the first Calf Doctor to practice in this end of the County. He never had a formal education, never went to college, but he did practice as a calf doctor up here, he is retired now, same as I am. I'm going to let him start in by telling....... he's older than ,1 am .... but he knows about how it happens that we came in to Long Valley. Frank =do you want to tell them how it happens that we got up here? Well, I'm going to remain seated, because my age is beginning to shcw up, but Dave started telling you like would lead you to believe I never did go to school, but I did, I went three days one time. Dave was sick and he was trying for perfect attendance so I attended in his place........ lots of laughter... We first came to Long Valley to the old Thunder Mountain City. Not right directly in the town, but it was 1912, Dave came up later with the family, he was pretty small and so was Ernie. My father came up here from Boise Valley to work for a Rancher, there might be one or two that remembers the Rancher, Old Ike had a cattle ranch, well. in those days you know all of us younger kids we had to help support, the older kids in the family we had to help the old folks raise the young kids, everybody was poor. Dad talked to this old farmer, he bragged me up, I was pretty young then in 1912, I was 14 years old. Dad told him how good a man I was, he said man. The old farmer said all right have him come up here so, I don't remember now how he got word to me, but I think he had to write, I don't believe they had telephones down in Boise Valley, I came up there right after 4th of July. They were just starting to hay, most of the hay Page 2 they put up in those days was wild hay, it was called timothy hay at that time. In Long Valley we was known for faising timothy seed, in fact it was about all they could raise axunndxThxmdaxx2ity, except in Thunder City, Thunder was the kinda of a place they could raise hell there. But Thunder City was named after the Thunder Mining Gold in the Thunder Mountains. I was a pretty small kid and a lot of this is heresay to me. Thunder City was the jumping off place to go into the Thunder Mountains. txhappanxknxxemRmhas mining area. I happen' one to remember unza incident, I don't remember the time, gut it was probably about 1905 or 1906, along in there. They had contracting outfits coming up here that were building the roads from Thunder City on into Thunder Mountain. I happen to remember, well my father was running a livery barn in the town of Star , now I finally got back out to there and I have completed tae circle now, but he was running a livery barn in the fall of the year. These contractors and outfits, the snow drove them out. I remember the two outfits, I remember their names. and Bill Whitehouse who had their headquarters in Star, the Goldsmith outfit who had their headquarters over in Nampa,l X)J They come out and stopped in Star at that time, all these construction men, they were mule skinners, about all the kinds of construction they had in those days. They got their pay in the little town of Star, it is a big town now to what it was then. They all started celebrating, they had two saloons there then. These fellows all tried, this was before prohibition days and they was all wanting to drink it all up so the country was dry then. They didn't manage to do it, but I can remember they all had to be laid out and the best place they had to put them was in the harness room in my Bad's old livery stable. I can remember that was where they laid them. Anyway, to get back to Thunder City.. I came up here that year in July and I worked in the hay field there. I was pretty young, I guess I daldn't have any more sense than to work hard so I did pretty good. That fall the threshing machine came around, a lot of these younger people don't know what a threshing machine is, anyway I worked there for this farmer....... inaudible... 3 At the same old Pete Neff lived in the lower end of Round Valley, there were two threshing machines in the lower end of the valley at that time. Old John Lock, he thought well for a kid he was getting around pretty good so he asked me if I wanted to keep working for this rancher, and I figured when threshing was over I would get laid off so I traveled with the Threshing Machine and went on down through the lower end ofxknnxdxYxttuyxxxd Long Valley and we wound up at Round Valley., at old farm. This John Lock was partner and John.... inadible.... about that time Dad decided he wanted to gets a team of mules and he stay up there so he'/went down and got the rest of the family so Dave came here and Ernie too, just like an old mule and I don't know I think some of those characteristics sorta rubbed off on them. The next spring we moved into Thunder City. Thunder City at that time was, they had two stores in Thunder City, the Logue Brothers, they were Uncles of the Sheriff, Merton Logue. They had the two stores and one of them you had to have an appointment to get into it, that was the drygood part. The two stores were a block a part. One of them was just a general store and the drygood store there, Fred Logue and his family lived in back of the drygood store so anybody wanted drygoods they had to go to the back door and get Fred or his wife to come out and wait on them or else go up to the wother store a block away and get someone O to come down and wait on them. There was a livery barn which was owned by Ted Harwood's stepfather. One Saloon, Frisbee__ run the saloon, he later became a game warden. At one time I think he was stationed here in McCall . Walt Cromno had a blacksmith shop. There was a restaurant there, I think some of the people might have heard of Emis Smith, he was an Indian who was quite famous as a mail carrier in the back country on skiis. His wife run the restaurant. There was a hotel. This hotel belonged to Tom Armstrong and his wife. Tom Armstrong's wife was a sister of the late J. F. Martin, he was pretty well acquainted around here. As near as I can recall that was all the businesses there was.in Thunder City at that time. ROUGH DRAFT 4 Shortly after that prohibition came in. The saloon was turned into a Post Office. Er::ie and Dave prompted me on that, I didn't quite remember that. Lisbee (Voice from the audience, the old saloon, which Lee Frixhee run, the post office Cromwell Cromwell's was Ella i9xnwn, Walt CxR3waft wife was the postmistress. Ella was real nearsighted. I guess when she wanted to put the letters in the boy she had to hold them up like this, and also she played the piano, no they didn't have a piano it was an orgap she played at the church all the time, and I remember when she played she was playing like this and looking right over at the pews. I was hoping that tonight Thelma Redman would be here, that is their daughter, Ella Cromwell's daughter. She was here last time we was here and I asked her if she would come up but she didn't show up..... well go ahead..) (Voice was probably Dave Spielman). Well any way at this time Thunder City was, oh they supplied the people in Round Valley in the vicinity of Thunder City, especially in the winter time any of the residents of Round Valley would come to Thunder City, it was a two day trip, you can't hardly feature that now. It was winter time and they had snow roads. Usually they would come up in the morning when the roads were froze and the horses could stay on top, in the afternoons when the snow got soft it was an exceptional hoarse that could travel on that. When it was soft they would slide off and get down. It reminds me of the time -------------- inaudible. - -- _ I drove team and moved stock to both their stores to what is now They seen Hamilton's store in Cascade. Logue brothers built that building. / Thunder City was dead when the railroad came through and they moved over there, I took two 1,orses and a sleigh in the winter time and moved the stock from the stores to Cascade and I remember once I was late getting back, I used to get up real early in the morning and go when the roads were solid. The horses got to slipping off ood this road and couldn't travel, they weren't what we called snow horses in those days. There I was and couldn't go no place. I unhitched them and then there was W Jack Ready, another old timer lived right there and could see I was having trouble./ lie could see I was having trouble, so he put on a pair of skiis, that was the way they traveled in those days. He come over there and helped me, we rustled a shovel and shoveled out a place for these horses to stay that night and then he skiied back to his place and carried some hay over tin his back over to feed those horses for the night. The next morning of course the snow was froze and we hitched the horses up and went on back to Thunder City. Xt"X Another voice..... This Jack Ready.. Murl Ready you know is Road Supervisor for the County, that was Jack Ready's son.. He is still busy on the job.... answer from Spielman, well hg's young.... answer well, I guess he is..... Frank says, well, you had better let someone else talk that is about all I know. Dave Spielman speaking.... here is an old map I picked up, it doesn't show things too plain, it has some of Adams County and Valley County and this was before there was a New Meadows and before there was a Cascade. I'll pass it around if you want to look at it. A voice from the audience asks where Thunder City is now from the highway. Old Thunder City, if you leave Cascade, as you leave Cascade and go across the river bridge going south, south east, you make the turn in the road, you know where Pat -Arn is, well, that is the turn, right in the turn in the Old Thunder City. It goes through what was the center of it. The old barn that used to be on the Woyer place was just burned down in the last month or so, it's not there now. The old livery stable that John had, that was Ted Harwood's stepdad, is still there, the stable isn't there but the house is, a little square house there about a 4 room house. It is on the left hand side going down..... mingled voices inaudible.... That was the main seat of Thunder City. Right now you come from Cascade right straight and curve around I like this by Pat Allen's place. The road before came this way and come out this way coming across the valley. In Thunder City there was the a store here, the post office here, the blacksmith shop here, the other store, Logue brothers other store, drygoods storethat was the one if you wanted gum boots or gingham or calico, Logue grabbed the key and went down the sidewalk, they had a board sidewalk, and then just across the road, the road come in here, right in here was the old hotel run by Armstrong, then on down here was Warner Brothers Ranch and the old barn that was just burned down or torn down. The road that goes out east of here went over pretty close to Warner's Mill, they had a sawmill and circled over into Piersall and in to Scout Valley and on in to Yellowpine and that country over there. The main street of Thunder City ran east and west. You know where all the dredge ponds are, the road went out of Thunder City just like that. The schoolhouse sat right in here. Logue brothers had a warehouse right in here, it set up on piling probably 2 feet high and Jerry Logue, that is John Logue's son, he used to swipe all the tobacco out of the store and we rolled our own and smoked pipes underneath this warehouse, God knows how we kept from stock burning it down. The warehouse had bailed hay, -suft salt, grain and all that. Anytime we got tired of Tuxedo then we got the Prince Albert, we didn't like Prince Albert we had Bull Durham, didn't want that we had something else, so we had our choice of tobacco. end of tape.......... H Start of new tape....... now Ted Harwood is about my age, probably a few days younger. lie and I used to fight in Thunder City every day Rx and that big tall Indian, he was the town cop, and about the time I would get him down Enis would come around and pull us apart. Spielman speaking... Dave was speaking about this Warner brothers sawmill, which was straight east of Thunder City. That was a water power driven saw mill. About the last time it was operated was either 1913, or about. This rancher I worked for cut some logs and we would take the logs to the mill and the mill would cut them into lumber for a certain percentage, that was my first experience in the woods. I went out and help him cut these logs. It was on Big Creek. To anybody that wants to know the location of Thunder City, I think I can make it a lot plainer now. The first building beyond Cascade airport on the azxpaxt highway is from Thunder City. Where Pat Allen lives now, that was part of the Warner brothers old ranch. There was a big two story house at one time and there was a real old barn there. One of the big stocks in trade at Logue brothers store was supplies for the sheep men. Years before the sheep men used to come clear in with pack strings, I guess 2/3 of the supplies was stock salt, the rest was the stuff sheep herders used. That was quite a trip, so they finally went to hauling supplies from Thunder City into the old town of Knox, which is down the river from what is now Orin Lake. It was at that time a couple of people run that, it was almost a legend, there might be a few people who remember, old Molly Kessler, old Molly was a mother to everyone. One year therg, I forget which year it was I think around '13 or '14 I drove freight team, I was driving for Ted Harwood's stepdad, We didn't have really horses in those days, they were just Cayuoses. was a load, of course that road was quite a road in those days. It was such a road, it was in 1913 the first Model T was getting in there. The Logue brothers bought the first two of them, one for each family. Old Len run the saloon, he bought one, everybody got to telling about what they could do with their Fords. Someone come up with a $50 bet that they couldn't drive to Knox with their Fords. was a gamblin' man and he called the bet. In order to win the bet, which he won, he took the body off this Model T Ford and just laid a board on the gas tank, which was under the seat, three men went in, that is the way they rode this Ford . When they come to these high centers they carried the Model T across ................lots of lalughter ............ he won the $50 bet. I can remember hauling freight over that road, there was many and many a place a� that time you would drop off of one board and go right straight down to another. Dave speaks...... I remember him driving the freight then... Frank was 16 years team old and he was driving the freight $a-m into Knox, and I got to to with him. It go was over 4th of July, we were going to be there on the 4th of July. It was a days trip in there. I remember we got in there, and the whiskey, boy did they have it up there, of course it wasn't legal then, it was during prohibition then, but there was a fellow by the name of Dukey Walls that brought moonshine liquor from McCall into Knox for the big 4th of July celebration. The way he come in was from Lick Creek, and along the river to Knox, but that was where they got the liquor was from McCall. I think that is where all the moonshiners were at that time. I remember I was just a kid and he was only 16 and he got real stewed and he had lots. of money, I don't know $3 or $4, and he was giving it to everybody and I was thinking about the old gal or whoever it was that run the hotel over there, I was wondering how the devil we were going to pay for our meals and the nights stay when we got- ready to leave, and do you know how we left town the next day ?, he hitched up those four horses, why he was still drunk, and got up on the seat and got the whip back and he just let out a great big whoop and we went out with the rocks just a jumping out from under that wagon and when we got to along Big Creek way and there was the game warden, i 7«I•y Len Exislwe -j and Frank stopped to fish with him and caught some fish and he wanted to see his license and he wouldn't show it to him and he teased Fw- i-&bee for a while and finally showed it to him, he was still drunk the next day. Frank speaking ...... I guess it is okay for you to tell that one, but I sowed my wild oats when I was young... As Dave told that story I'll tell one, I shouldn't tell it as it is on Ted Harwood but Ted is here and I'll leave in the morning so I'lltell it. Ted's brother George, George was a I was driving this freight team for Tots stepdad, the nights that I would be in Thunder City I would have to camp out in their yard, but I was 16 years old then and I was a man so I chewed tobacco. I would take a plug and just a little piece about that long would do me for a trip in and back, I kept a supply in my tent. George, Ted and Dave they got to investigating my tent and they found this chewing tobacco. They thought I it would be fun to chew tobacco so they all took a chew of this tobacco. About that time Ted's mother came out and caught them chewing tobacco. She made them tell her where they got the tobacco. They told her they got it out in my tent, so she goes out to my tent and she cuts out three slices of the chaw of tobacco, and marches all three kids over and sets them down on the back step of their hNx=iR house and made them take a bite out of this and chew on this and about the time she thought they had all the good out of it she would have them spit it out and take another chew, I doubt very much if any one of the three kids has ever taken a chew of tobacco since. Lots of laughter. If anyone has any questions that I can answer about that... I'm not used to talking very much. Dave asks, I don't think you ever mentioned the year we came in here........ xaszh replies, 1912. Dave says, I am going to talk about myself for a little bit........ We were around Cascade a lot. In fact I graduated from high school in 1922 as the smartest boy in the class, and I went to work for Sollie Callendar, Frank Callendar's Dad, he had the meat market there in Cascade. Frank was probably about 12 or 13 years old when I worked for Sollie. I was working on the farm that summer and Sollie Callendar came out to hire me away from the other guy so I went to work for him, I thought boy I'll be a butcher and be able to talk to the pretty girls most of the time. I think i.t was about three years I worked for him before they let me up in the front room to cut meat , I was building fence, hauling hides, and everything but cutting meat, I was in the back room pulling the meat off the heads, rendering lard, suet, making sausage. That is the reason I'd like Fran: to attend here tonight so I could tell a few things about him. Actually he turned out better than we thought he would...... laughter...... I think last meeting you talking had Mabel Madden, what is her name Hasbrouck. She was :taiing about old Fred Golden, I the butcher., the first butcher in the Valley. Well he had a little old shed there in Thunder City that he used to come over to once in a while of of course the only 10. refrigeration you had then was ice. I think when I come up here to the Valley and worked for Bill Dineharkwas the first time I ever knew about mechanical refrigeration, in Cascade we used ice and Dinehard used ice until I think up until about 1930 or 1931 before we used mechanical refrigeration. Frank-speaking ....... Dave speaking of Callendar put me in mind of.. in 1912 when I came here Sollie Callendar and his brother I believe it was, Winston Callendar they run a four horse station, that is how I came in here, the railroad was built further up, it wasn't through, but they only carried passengers to Montour. In Montour you got on the stage. I remember traveling all night, we went from Montrour to Sweet, up through Ola, up through High Valley, and down into what is now Cougar Mountain Lodge now. When we got to just this side of Thunder City, we had traveled all night, we pulled over to this ranch and I told the driver where I was going and he let me off. John Hobbs was driving the atage. It was just getting daylight, we traveled all night. Dave asks, is there any one who want to know anything. Frank says there are probably some here who knows more than we do. Dave says no, the only one here who knows anything, and he's not old enough, is probably kraxkx Bob McBride . Bob has lived here all his life you know. from audience, no it was before that. When was that 1913 or 1914, answer Dave says...... we lived on this ranch out from Thunder City when we first came here. I believe, now I'm not sure but I believe my dad when he went to work there I believe his salary was $40 a month and we got milk, eggs, the house furnished, that was the salary then. There was no income taxes then. Frank speaking.... Incidentally, at that time or a year or so later two (Tom or Don) murder cases were tried in that area, one of then was out at old Crawford's Horace father was shot there then, At one time when I was a kid I worked for Horace, I knew the man who was convicted of the killing. At the same time there was two brothers that lived down, just about now where Hazel Hasbrouck lives, they were the Dunn brothers, they were found murdered there and I don't 11. think that case was ever followed through. There were all kinds of rumors of what happened, and so on. Also, about the same time the year I came here or the year before there was a Murder case in Stanley. It was over gambling..... voice from the audience..... it wasn't murder, they didn't kill him. Bectel lived, they didn't kill him.... Frank says, I don't want to argue yith you, but I'm pretty sure they killed him. I think you're a liar cause they did kill him .... Also there was a murder case there, I don't remember too much of the particulars of that one. His name was Sinclair. I remember old John Emery's trial was held at Idaho City and shortly after that, Emery's run a hotel and that building was moved to Cascade, it was part of what is now the Valley Club. .... much conversation intermingled...... Jess LaFever moved a building over to Cascade and it was a barber shop. ....question from audience.... did they move any of the buildings from Thunder City into Cascade? ...... I don't recall any of the buildings they moved from Thunder City... I think there were one or two buildings torn down for the lumber...:. question from the audience.... is that the reason there were three towns so close together..... Stanley, Crawford, and....... • Fxank answers... inaudible.... Thunder City and Crawford was only 5 miles Van Wyck Van Wyck apart, it was about 4 to 5 miles over to ftaxiny, Rkantay was an older town than Crawford was. Dave says ...... To go to Van Wyck you take the road that goes over the hill to the golf course now in Cascade, that is the old road and down over the hill into the Valley where the old town of Crawford was. Frank says... I wouldn't be surprised that was the first bank in this valley. There was a bank there at one time. Question from the audience...... where did the town of Van Wyck get its name ?.... end of tape........... New tape....... Frank speaking..... the educated people call it Cascade. Dave speaking.... Callendar's Slaughter House was just west of the Cascade Dam probably a 100 yards. It set right on the river, there was a swimming pool at Jamison Hot Springs, the hot springs was east of the slaughter house. 12. It is up above the Lake. voice from the audience.... I thought they covered up the hot springs with the lake, yes it is under water now.. Mabel Madden was here and talked, not that I knew Mabel too good, but I remember myself (Frank speaking) , Nokes, Fred Nokes oldest boy, the other people passed away a short time ago, Ted Harwood's sister Bea, and myself and I think Terry Logue, a brother younger than Herman. We all go to Thunder City to attend Mabel Madden's eighth grade graduation exercises. Question from the audience, There was some people who lived there in the early days, they had a ranch up there on the present road into Warm Springs in Scott Valley, the Scott family who came in there from California, do you know anything about them? -F-r -ask answers..... I don't recall anything about that family, at the time I was there it was the Taylor place, and Baker, Willie Baker, they had a place there and there was some people by the name of Harvey that had a home in there. There was two brothers, Fred and Wes. There was another old fellow up there, he was a bachelor, name of Delano, he was a real at that time. A lot of them they didn't take the ground up for the farming, they took it up a lot of them for timber claims. This Taylor place they had a son and a daughter and the daughter was a school teacher. If they lived in Scott Valley she must have been the only teacher there. I remember hearing something about the Scott's but I never knew them. Dave says.... you know along about then was when the fishing was good in Big Creek, you could go up to Scott Valley and there was more big trout and you could go up there and catch a hundred in a day. There was a blacksmith there in Thunder City and he was always going up to Scott Valley to catch a hundred fish, there was no limit at that time, by the way Walt Cromwell was one of the early Probate Judge's in the County, he was also a Deputy Sheriff for a while. ` Question from the audience, Did Warner's have a sawmill in order to make the lumber for all these buildings or what? Frank answers.... well I don't know I 13. don't think there was another saw mill in the country. Questi.on..... when did - he get the steam engine, did he have that when you were there ?...... Frank answers..... he must have got that about that time because I remember it being run afterwards by a steam engine. Question.... Do you know what happened to the steam engine? No..... From audience, Would you like to know where it is? It is buried under the Lake, we bought it and used it to run a small saw mill and we buried it. F -rank says, well there was a lot of saw mills later you know. F=affk says.... you used to go down to the Hot Springs..... answer, well..... once in a while..... lots of laughter..... The building was burned down before we bought the ranch but we did use it and several people used it besides us(women's voice). I didn't come up here until 1939.. Frank says.. along in 1916 and 1917 they were logging quite a bit along in there. Frank says..... In those days there was no place to take a bath in those lumber camps and unless there was something like the hot springs we probably had a bath once a year. We would go down to the hot springs and all take a bath, we :could take our clothes down there and wash them, then a few years later just north of Arlington, what we used to call the old Rash place, there was a hot springs there and we used that hot springs for the same purpose. Dave says.... That is where the old dentist lived, wasn't it. Doc Burke, he used to travel around the Valley, he had a team and a buggy, no I think he only used one horse and he had this in his buggy, this old milling machine, I don't know it looked like a deal all most, and he would go around visiting the farmers to see if anyone needed any dental work, well he would unload there and you fed him and put him up for the night and he took care of your teeth, but he still charged you for it....... Frank says.... he was also a part time veterinarian Lots of laughter...... 'Frank says, I don't think he had a license to practice dentistry,.... Dave says.... well I don't think you had a license to practice calf doctoring..... answer, well, no I didn't...... You were talddng about steam engines.. well I was working for Lawrence 14. he had a and he built his mill there. I worked for him before he moved to Van Wyck. He had a fire and it burned up the engine and I was working for him rebuilding that mill and I happen to remember in Thunder City there used to be these pieces for these boilers and we hauled them into Thunder Mountain to fix these old steam engines. He picked up a steam engine, I don't know who owned it or anything about it, but it was brand new and it was unloaded off the freight way there and he was going to put it in his sawmill. Frank,speaking.... well the story how thex all these steam engines happen to be here, it was a few years before our time, these freight outfits were all hauling this equipment into the Thunder Mountain mines and the boom went bust and they just unloaded all this machinery wherever the fellows wanted it. .....lots of intermingled conversation.... inaudible......... That Thunder Mountain Boom was before our time (RxvRxspeaking). I think it was along in '07,'08 or '09. Frank speaking, you know it was the sheep outfits, they came to Thunder City to get their stock salt, they came out from Bear Valley and all back in there, they came out to Thunder City. We used to get a lot of what they called Camp Tenders from these sheep camps. A good share of them were Basque o's. We got several of them in there at one time, especially at the time the saloon was running there. Dave says.... you know at that time there was an awful lot of sheep that came in here. There was two big sheep outfits, one of them was Little and the other one was Van Dusen, and they were both from Emmett, they were the big ones and there was one, I think he was from around Boise or maybe out at Mountain Home and that was Archibald. He was basque. This Van Dusen at one time was supposed to have been the biggest independent sheepman in the United States and he had well over 200 bands of sheep and thats a lot of sheep. Well, I guess that's about all unless there is something someone else wants to talk about.... By the way, I just remember back, and you talk about this Scott, if I remember right the old Taylor place was the old Scott place. It was 15. the first place you came to going snkm from Thunder City into Scott Valley. That was before I came here (Frank speaking). A big two story house there, that was the Taylor place and at one time it was used as a stopping place on the route from Thunder City into Thunder Mountain. This summer that I was hauling Freight into there I spoke of Molly Kessler being kinda of a motherly person to everybody, all Jim, he wan't too ambitious, he had another old fellow, a bachelor he used to stay with, Molly would get them to go out once in a while and catch a mess of fish, it was usually on the menu every day, but I was hauling this freight and making my regular trips, we only hauled 30 hundred, that doesn't sound like very much, four horses, like I say these were Cayuses, not really horses. It was sometime in July, a snow storm came up and the horses feet balled up with snow and they couldn't hardly stand up pulling the wagon. I had a camp at what they call Horse Pine Flats over there and I camped there overnight, all I had was a lunch to eat because every day I made it into Warm Lake, but anyway Molly knew I was supposed to be in this night and she figured something sure had happened to me, the next morning I got up, I never unharnessed the horses, I left the harnesses on them, I had one balky horse, and I had a dickens of a time getting them started, they was all cold.and chilly, three horses couldn't hardly handle the wagon and this one finally pitched in enoughk to get the wagon going, and I got up oh to about what they call Prince Albert Springs up there and here come this old Jim and this fellow coming out on a buckboard to meet me. I wondered how they got out, I got on into Warm Lake and Molly just swore that something had happened to me, she kicked them out and made them come over the hill to see what had happened..... lots of laughter..... Molly was one of these women that went out and got the meat in the fall of the year. Jim, oh sometimes he would go out and get one pretty close to Knox, at that time it I was called Hard Knox, there was too Know, they called that Hard Knox. Molly would always go out and get the winter's meat, sometimes Jim would help her. 16. It probably took maybe 15 or 20, not over 30 minutes to get all the fish you could possibly eat in a days time. I was driving this freight team and going do,m the other side of Warm Lake summit, was the name of that Creek, I used to sometimes stop the horses there and I caught fish while setting in the wagon. Question from the audience..... how many people lived there in Thunder City? Dave answers, they didn't take a census..... -wit says ... There were the Conder's ( ?) family, there were three kids, Rupe and his wife, that's wife, there was Enis Smith and his wife and three kids was 5 more, he had two stepdaughters. There was the Ted Harwood's two sisters and a brother and him, the Callendar's and the Logue's, Fred Logue and three boys and one girl, Dave says, yes one girl, she graduated in my class when I was the smartest boy in the class....... inaudible.......... It was everyplace in the Valley was a ranch, there weren't too many places that were over 100 head, everyone had a few head of cattle and a few hogs, now they have consolidated into large ranches. Dave says, actually there are very few cows in the Valley now that are owned by the people who live here. Most of them are brought up from outside, just for the summer months. You know what happened, there used to be two butchers, along in 1922 and on, Bill Dinehart was up here in McCall and Callendar was in Cascade, they were the two big butchers, the people here sold there cattle,.other than the local butchers, they were shipped to Portland but what happened Sollie Callendar and Bill Dinehart bought the biggest share of the cattle in those times, what they would do, they would buy the whole thing, the old cows, the bulls and the hefers, end of tape...... New tape...... I don't know what it is, I think it is maybe this danged mechanical refrigeration, we used to eat the spare ribs the first thing because they didn't keep too good and the liver and the heart, you had to eat the liver and the heart and the spareribs first before you eat any of the other. 17. Dave. speaking... When we used to butcher at home all the farmers would gather together in one place and all butcher at the same time. I remember at home you could hardly wait until we could get into the real meat, we had to eat the damn liver first. -Frank speaking... I don't know if it means anything to anybody, but it has meant a lot to me since I have left here and I left here about 6 years ago, and live down there in Star. All I have to do is set there and rubber and when I get tired of setting and rubbering I get in the car and drive around the country. I think there are very very few people that can realize how many cattle are on feed lots in Boise Valley. I fish right out on highway 44 and also the Star Road where it goes , south of Nampa, I have a recliner and if I get it set just right I can set and watch that intersection, I watched and I was amazed at how many cattle in the spring, that are hauled in here to pasture and then in the fall hauling them out. When I got to setting down there and watching and I never counted then or attempted to make an estimation but it is amazing how many cattle are hauled, a lot of them are gathered up by individual ranchers and they take them out and they are fattened at these feed yards, these commercial feed yards. Some of these feed yards I don't think hold the heavy cattle, they feed them for so much a pound gain that they put on. I was talking to one of these feed lot operators, he mmu didn't own the feed lot, just about 3 weeks ago. There was some sort of a controversy over feeding them some sort of a cattle food to make them fat and sassy,:and the pure food outfits come up with a.... I think the ruling was they have to take this chemical out of their feed for a certain length of time before they went for slaughter. The stuff they give the cattle was used to raise the price of meat because they had to give them more feed due to this chemical. I was amazed at how many cattle there are. I don't have 10 anything to do, I get tired of sitting at home and I get in my car and drive around. My first trip the other day I went over to Twin Falls, I was tired of driving the freeways, I took the highway and went through the little town of Hamilton over there and down the Slate River and down throughk that grand view country. There was lots of cattle over there, and in what they call Apache Valley both ways from Twan Falls, it is just like.Boise Valley, I didn't know there was that much cattle over there. This big packing company, the Missouri Packing REk$ng Company, it was supposed to get into operation out south of town this fall, and I was reading an article the :ku other day about how many thousand head of cattle it would take to supply them. You go out and look at one of these big feed lots, I asked a fellow, how many cattle you got here, and he said about 8,000 head here, to look at it I couldn't believe that, but he had no reason to lie to me. They are in these fences and they can't walk around.much so they fatten faster. Question from the audience....... When you were in Thunder City was the out in the pastures�� grass /like they say it was, Timothy , etc. -Fk says...... Native grass down in the meadows...... Question, what has happened to it ?....... Well, a lot of raising timothy people thought they were going to get rich /so they plowed up the native grass. A lot of that pasture was whtat they called bunch grass, and then of course down in the bottoms they had kind of a sue ( ?) grass, I don't know it wasn't considered to be good pasture. And during this time everybody in Long Valley was going to get rich raising Timothy Seed, well they went out there with a plow and plowed up all the land, and there was quite a bit of money made in this Valley raising Timothy Seed for a while. They raisied Clover Seed too, but they could raise Timothy Seed without irrigation at that time. Dave says.... the biggest share of the people that fed their cattle here in the winter, they fed it with this wild hay. It was a native grass. There are probably a few places they still have the old wild grass or native grass but they are very few. 19. It had a chance to grow higher at that time because there wasn't so much to eat off of it. Where did Nancy live? (Question from the audience). Well, they were living right in Thunder Bolt here. Nancy has a sister, half - sister, they lived down on Big Creek from Thunder City there about 1/2 mile down through there. Question, where did Grandaddy Crawford live?..... Well when I first knew your Grandaddy Crawford he lived on what was called the Haybailer Place. Do you know where the Cemetary is? XXKXXXX Just across the road is the Haybailer place. Grandaddy Crawford lived there in 1912 because I was traveling with this threshing machine, that was the first time I seen Mary. I had met and Nancy prior to that. If I recall right there they left there and went to Nampa or rather left there and went to Emmett and they lived in Emmett for several years, then the old man Crawford came back to Round Valley, what used to be called the old Neffs place. He bought that for a ranch there, last I recall old Jerk Crawford we called him, that was where they lived it was called the Neff place. Confused intermingled voices,..... inaudible... Question, where the Kirby's here then? Yes old _Dwight(?) Kirby he was prosecuting Attorney when Valley County was formed. He was also a banker. Dave Kirby lived on down in the Valley. E Kirby was Frank Kirby's son, Ethel Kirby was Mother of the Year a couple of years ago, well she was a sister to Jack Morgan of New Meadows. Mingled voices, inaudible. Dave says..... You know you were taRng about deer, the first blizzard we lived on the Wendt Ranch, just north of Thunder City and I walked to school in the winter time, it was about 3 miles across the field there. It got awfully cold in those days doom there, it got colder and they had a whole lot of snow, but I would carry a lunch in one of these 4 or 5 lb lard buckets to school and I 20. v would trade it off to the other kids. You know the old timers there because all they brought to school was jerky and I would trade my lunch for jerky. The deal was this if you took your lunch bucket you had to put it in the cloak room and of course it was cold except in the middle of the room and when you went out there at noon to get your lunch it was harder than a rock, it was froze. I remember Jerry Logue, he was just a little older than I, I think he was a year ahead of me. Our ink would be frozen up, you know they had inkwells in the old time desks and they would be frozen up so we would put we forgot it and our ink bottle up on top of the stove, and I remember one day /it got to boilding and blew the cork out, I'll never forget that it blew ink all over everything. Whny was it Jerk Crawford? (Question from the audience). His name was Jurden Crawford and they called him Jerk... tT4ank- says..... well he is gone now and it is all ancient history but he was one of these moonshiners in the moonshine i�-- days......, lots of laughter..... Dave says, F don't you start telling about the moonshiners up in this end of the town........ says, well I'm glad you don't want me to spout all I know..... end of tape. E o ano•� 5* = w w ouc o n C 'a.o � Y " ° n c n o a n �C c y n. h to 0 '-°+U) N a N p CD A� M O w 0 9 Oq CD °^ w �•, R�� nos c °° no�:;cso`�o•.,���" v� G p' " �7 O S O° p. O CD O w O CY Co ] .�OO ° c n R ° c O ' r W a p "Crc^ � o0 'CD ai o a .0 Cn <� ; E. 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The government sources claimed that nobody had been killed by the military, but that citizens had attacked soldiers and destroyed military vehicles. In addi- tion, they said that the trouble was incited by just a few "trouble -mak- ers". Some students on my campus denied that anyone had been killed in Tian'anmen Square, but others reported a wide variety of figures, ranging from 23 to 3,000. Numer- ous students told me that most of the university community did not believe the government media. As time passed, however, more and more students claimed to believe the Chinese reports. They were be- ing told not to believe VOA or BBC. My supervisor, seeing my copies of typewritten summaries of VOA broadcasts, told me not to distribute them to students, but said I could feel free to have my own opinions. Students were very optimistic after receiving substantial support from the citizenry in late May, but the bloody invasion of Tian'anmen on June 4 caused their morale to plummet. Not in the mood to re- sume their study routines, but afraid to demonstrate any more, most striking students went home to their families. The administration on my cam- pus tried desperately to restore rou- tine by sending telegrams to stu- dents' homes all over China. Stu- dents returned to take their final ex- aminations, but attendance in regu- lar class sessions remained sparse. Discouraged about the suppression of the student movement and about the future, the students seemed very dejected. For awhile they remained eager to discuss the political situation "Most participants in the student movement do not want to overthrow China's current government system, but to gain a greater voice in govern- ment affairs and to see the corruption cleaned up." with me in private, but after learn- ing that authorities had come to campus to look for protesters, many of them began to avoid me. they became especially paranoid about traveling with foreigners. Meanwhile, the parents of a young Chinese woman who I had proposed to, asked us to terminate our courtship for fear that the whole family would be punished for asso- ciating with a Westerner. Following the U.S. govern- ment's advisory to leave China, I strongly considered leaving. But no airlifts were coming to Van, and I heard that the situations at Beijing and Shanghai airports were very tense and that some people were having great difficulty getting flights out of Hong Kong. I conse- quently concluded that it would be safer and more convenient to stay put. When I did leave, I had trouble booking a flight from Xi an to Bei- jing. Northwest Airlines was not able to give me a direct flight from Beijing, so they arranged for me to fly to Tokyo on a Chinese airliner and then transfer to a Northwest flight to Seattle. Since I saw numerous other for- eigners in the city during this time, I assumed it was safe, but I tried to be cautious. Seeing many armed soldiers on the streets, I tried not to walk past any spot too often, lest I arouse suspicion. However, I did a lot of walking and even visited some Chinese friends twice. Communication between the Unites States and China was some- times difficult, but this was mainly due to China's poor infrastructure. Even before the upheaval, I had had difficulties placing calls to Idaho, and my university's backward tele- phone service makes it virtually impossible to call that institution from abroad. My family and the U of I used telex to reach me quickly. These messages, taking three days, were not hindered at all and my phone call to my mother on June 9 went through almost immediately. Be- cause of the volume of inquiries, however, I was unable to complete my call the U.S. embassy the same day. Fortunately, I never found my- self in danger, but the massive pro- paganda campaign, the monitoring activities, and the search for pro - democracy students made me feel uneasy. Although I never felt scared in Beijing, I did not want to push my luck during martial law. One soldier asked me where I was going, but did not act threatening. I would like to return to China, but probably not in the near future. Sensing that the situation is poten- tially very dangerous for Ameri- cans, I want to wait for an im- provement in the political climate. I think that there will be a stalemate until top leader Deng Xi- aping dies, and then there will be a difficult power struggle between hardliners and moderates. Political disarray in China might persist for many years. When order is restored, however, I think that it could again be worthwhile to work in that country. Meanwhile, I think that as an English teacher, I can do more good elsewhere since Chinese students will probably have little opportu- nity to use their English for awhile. The Chinese government is now allowing very few students to go abroad and few native English speakers are now entering China or remaining there. Most participants in the student movement do not want to over- throw China's current government ?1a4 X45 system, but to gain a greater voice in government affairs and to see the corruption cleaned up. Communism will not be eradicated as long as the majority chooses not to eliminate it. Even with a substantially greater degree of democracy, such a system can be retained. It is possible for people to have a say in political af- fairs even if the economy remains largely under government owner- ship. I think it is very possible to at- tain more democracy, since most Chinese would probably like to have it. As citizens of the world's most populous nation, these people are a mighty force, but they have an extremely tough battle to fight. If they band together in loyal cooperation, they can win, but there will probably be much bloodshed. If these people decide they want to dispense with communism com- pletely, they are capable of realizing that goal if they work closely and valiantly together. Despite horren- dous opposition, a committed and united group of people can accom- plish much. Imagine what can hap- pen when a billion committed peo- ple cooperate!