HomeMy Public PortalAboutSpielman FamilyCertainly one of the oldest
living residents of Valley Coun-
ty, J. E. Spielman, celebrated
his 98th birthday in McCall on
July 22. He spent the entire day
greeting friends and relatives
at the home of a eon, Ernie,
where Mrs. Spielman served
coffee, birthday cake, and
doughnuts to the many who
stopped to visit.
Born in Hagerstown, Maryland,
the elder Mr. Spielman lived in
Kansas for a number of years
before coming to Idaho as a
young man. He settled in Long
Valley in old Thunder City near
the present town of Cascade.
There he farmed, worked, and
raised his family of five boys
and one girl. He has since lived
in Cascade, Donnelly, and Mc-
Call, spending most of his adult
years in Long Valley. For many
years he has been a familiar
figure in McCall.
First -hand report makes
local history «exciting"
by Linda Hansen
MCCALL— History can be dull. It
can be an endless list of facts and
figures. Remember learning about
the Spanish Armada or the War of
1812? If only you could have met
someone who lived lived during those
periods of history, they might have
been fascinating events. The In-
termountain Historical and
Genealogical Society makes local
history exciting by having "old -
timers" talk about their own ex-
periences many years ago. When
you leave a meeting you can
almost hear the clomp of horses
and the jingle of harnesses that
pulled teams through towns that
are no lonnger here.
Thunder City was one of those
towns. Dave Spielman and his
brother Clarence from Star were
Thursday night guests of the
historical society, adding their own
personal insights to the "dic-
tionary- definition" of Thunder City
as "the town that supplied the gold -
miners on Thunder Mountain with
`necessities. "' The city sported the
usual assortment of buildings early
in the century - two stores owned
by the Logue family, a livery barn
(owned by Ted Harwood's step-
father), a blacksmith shop, a
restaurant, and a saloon. And then
there was Clarence Spielman, the
first "cat doctor" in that end of the
county.
The Spielman family came to
Thunder City from bt, se valley in
1912 so the father could manage a
cattle ranch. The Spielman
brothers don't really consider
themselves `old- timers" in the
area, but they do remember a
'efferent kind of life `way back
.i when "everybody was poor."
They remember now everybody
used to help each other, be neigh-
borly, and. "raise hell" in that little
town. Dave and Clarence both
recalled the time some "mule-
skinners" were sent to build a
road then got "snowed out" and
ended up "laid out" as a result of
the good time they had in the
saloon.
Clarence and his father arrived
in Thunder City first, later to be
joined by younger brother Dave
and the rest of the family. Clarence
recalled the family's move by mule
team - "it kinda rubbed off on
Dave," he laughed. By the-time
Clarence was 14 years old, his dad
bragged about his capabilities. He
went to work in the hay fields,
"traveling" with a threshing
machine. At 16, he was driving
freight teams into Knox (about a
mile or two north of Warm Lake)
and being a man in every respect.
Dave recalled the time Clarence
let him tag along for the day's
journey that included gulping
bootleg whiskey and two days'
worth of reeling around, all for a
mere three dollars! Clarence also
chewed tobacco at a tender age but
hid it well so young Dave and his
friends wouldn't discover his
secret. They did, however, and
regretted it ever since. Ted Har-
wood's mother caught her son,
Dave, and another boy chewing the
stuff, cut off two good plugs apiece
and made tham sit on her back
porch until every morsel was gone.
As the saying goes, "boys will be
boys" and when one brother
recalled an incident from
childhood, the other "topped it with
a better tale. Both brothers agreed
that the Logue stores were the
main supply outlets for Thunder
Mountain miners and the 16
townspeople, but they also
provided a marvelous choice of
tobacco and plenty of space under
the warehouse to smoke without
being seen by the grown -ups. "It's
a wonder that warehouse full of
hay and supplies never burned
down," they both agreed.
Big brothery Clarence taught
"little" Dave many bad tricks, but
Dave survived in spite of them. In
fact, Dave pointed out, "I
graduated from Cascade High
School in 1922 as the smartest boy
in my class." After a loud guffaw
from Clarence, Dave admitted he
was the only male graduate that
year. He went to work as a meat
cutter for Sollie Callender in
Cascade and wanted to work up in
the front of the shop "to talk to all
the pretty girls," but Sollie kept
him in the back room for three
years, making sausage.
During those early years in the
Thunder City and Cascade areas,
the two brothers recalled the great
number of sheepmen. In fact, the
Logues stocked their stores with
stock salt that was mostly pur-
chased by the sheepherders. At one
time, a man named Van Deusen
was the biggest independent
sheepman in America. In addition
to sheep, many local people
imagined they could amass a
fortune by raising and selling
timothy seed in that fertile valley.
Of course, cattle- raising flourished
and audience member Mrs.
Charles Cruickshank remarked.
"The beef just doesn't taste as
good nowadays." Neither Dave
not Clarence knew exactly why,
but speculated that it may have
been the wild grass or the timothy
upon which the cattle grazed.
Dave, the meat cutter, recalled
that good cuts of beef were rarely
eaten by the cattlemen them-
selves. "We ate the old cows," h
said. "The rest were sent t
Portland." Dave remembere
always eating up the ribs, heart
and liver first "because the:
spoiled the quickest."
Taking one last look arourn
Thunder City, both brother
recalled the problem of keepinj
warm in winter, walking lonj
-distances, and the low, low prig
tags attached to everything. L
1913, the Spielmans lived in a house
that cost nothing, got milk an(
eggs free, raised vegetables, an(
the father earned $40 a month
with no income tax. Dave als(
remembered walking a three -mill
stretch to school, carrying hi!
lunch in a four -pound lard bucket
He also remembered that lunches
froze in the cloakroom by noon, s(
he would trade his lunch for
classmate's beef jerky.
With electric and oil heat
hamburgers from a drive -in, an(
sky -high rent and income taxes
the good old days are gone - and s(
is Thunder City. Like the demise of
Vanwyck, the railroad pur an enc
to the little town and it mergec
with Vanwyck and Crawford int(
Cascade. But you drive by the old
site whenever you go south past
Cascade and over the bridge.
Thunder City was located about
where Pat Allen's ranch is now.
ROUGH DRAFT
May :31, IV /3
Thursday, May 3rd, 1973
Speaker: Dave Spielman
I'm kinda disappointed in the attendance I got when they heard about me,
what we are going to do is to talk about Thundez City and what happened
around there in our time, oh by the way there are some people who don't
,they know me,_
know my brother, /I'm Dave, this is Exazir Spielman. Actually in this end
of the Valley he is known as Doc Spielman. He was the first Calf Doctor
to practice in this end of the County. He never had a formal education,
never went to college, but he did practice as a calf doctor up here, he is
retired now, same as I am. I'm going to let him start in by telling.......
he's older than ,1 am .... but he knows about how it happens that we came in to
Long Valley. Frank =do you want to tell them how it happens that we got up
here?
Well, I'm going to remain seated, because my age is beginning to shcw up,
but Dave started telling you like would lead you to believe I never did go
to school, but I did, I went three days one time. Dave was sick and he was
trying for perfect attendance so I attended in his place........ lots of laughter...
We first came to Long Valley to the old Thunder Mountain City. Not right directly
in the town, but it was 1912, Dave came up later with the family, he was pretty
small and so was Ernie. My father came up here from Boise Valley to work for
a Rancher, there might be one or two that remembers the Rancher, Old Ike
had a cattle ranch, well. in those days you know all of us younger kids we had
to help support, the older kids in the family we had to help the old folks
raise the young kids, everybody was poor. Dad talked to this old farmer, he
bragged me up, I was pretty young then in 1912, I was 14 years old. Dad told
him how good a man I was, he said man. The old farmer said all right have him
come up here so, I don't remember now how he got word to me, but I think he had
to write, I don't believe they had telephones down in Boise Valley, I came up
there right after 4th of July. They were just starting to hay, most of the hay
Page 2
they put up in those days was wild hay, it was called timothy hay at that time.
In Long Valley we was known for faising timothy seed, in fact it was about all
they could raise axunndxThxmdaxx2ity, except in Thunder City, Thunder was the
kinda of a place they could raise hell there. But Thunder City was named after
the Thunder Mining Gold in the Thunder Mountains. I was a pretty small kid
and a lot of this is heresay to me. Thunder City was the jumping off place
to go into the Thunder Mountains. txhappanxknxxemRmhas mining area. I happen'
one
to remember unza incident, I don't remember the time, gut it was probably about
1905 or 1906, along in there. They had contracting outfits coming up here that
were building the roads from Thunder City on into Thunder Mountain. I happen
to remember, well my father was running a livery barn in the town of Star , now
I finally got back out to there and I have completed tae circle now, but he was
running a livery barn in the fall of the year. These contractors and outfits, the
snow drove them out. I remember the two outfits, I remember their names.
and Bill Whitehouse who had their headquarters in Star, the Goldsmith outfit
who had their headquarters over in Nampa,l X)J They come out and stopped in
Star at that time, all these construction men, they were mule skinners, about
all the kinds of construction they had in those days. They got their pay in
the little town of Star, it is a big town now to what it was then. They all
started celebrating, they had two saloons there then. These fellows all tried,
this was before prohibition days and they was all wanting to drink it all up
so the country was dry then. They didn't manage to do it, but I can remember
they all had to be laid out and the best place they had to put them was in the
harness room in my Bad's old livery stable. I can remember that was where they
laid them. Anyway, to get back to Thunder City.. I came up here that year in
July and I worked in the hay field there. I was pretty young, I guess I daldn't
have any more sense than to work hard so I did pretty good. That fall the
threshing machine came around, a lot of these younger people don't know what
a threshing machine is, anyway I worked there for this farmer....... inaudible...
3
At the same old Pete Neff lived in the lower end of Round Valley, there were
two threshing machines in the lower end of the valley at that time. Old John
Lock, he thought well for a kid he was getting around pretty good so he asked
me if I wanted to keep working for this rancher, and I figured when threshing
was over I would get laid off so I traveled with the Threshing Machine and
went on down through the lower end ofxknnxdxYxttuyxxxd Long Valley and we
wound up at Round Valley., at old farm. This John Lock was
partner and John.... inadible.... about that time Dad decided he wanted to
gets a team of mules and he
stay up there so he'/went down and got the rest of the family so Dave came here
and Ernie too, just like an old mule and I don't know I think some of those
characteristics sorta rubbed off on them.
The next spring we moved into Thunder City. Thunder City at that time was,
they had two stores in Thunder City, the Logue Brothers, they were Uncles of the
Sheriff, Merton Logue. They had the two stores and one of them you had to have
an appointment to get into it, that was the drygood part. The two stores were
a block a part. One of them was just a general store and the drygood store there,
Fred Logue and his family lived in back of the drygood store so anybody wanted
drygoods they had to go to the back door and get Fred or his wife to come out
and wait on them or else go up to the wother store a block away and get someone
O
to come down and wait on them. There was a livery barn which was owned by
Ted Harwood's stepfather. One Saloon, Frisbee__ run the saloon, he later
became a game warden. At one time I think he was stationed here in McCall .
Walt Cromno had a blacksmith shop. There was a restaurant there, I think some
of the people might have heard of Emis Smith, he was an Indian who was quite famous
as a mail carrier in the back country on skiis. His wife run the restaurant.
There was a hotel. This hotel belonged to Tom Armstrong and his wife. Tom
Armstrong's wife was a sister of the late J. F. Martin, he was pretty well
acquainted around here. As near as I can recall that was all the businesses there
was.in Thunder City at that time.
ROUGH DRAFT
4
Shortly after that prohibition came in. The saloon was turned into a Post
Office. Er::ie and Dave prompted me on that, I didn't quite remember that.
Lisbee
(Voice from the audience, the old saloon, which Lee Frixhee run, the post office
Cromwell Cromwell's
was Ella i9xnwn, Walt CxR3waft wife was the postmistress. Ella was real nearsighted.
I guess when she wanted to put the letters in the boy she had to hold them up like
this, and also she played the piano, no they didn't have a piano it was an orgap
she played at the church all the time, and I remember when she played she was
playing like this and looking right over at the pews. I was hoping that tonight
Thelma Redman would be here, that is their daughter, Ella Cromwell's daughter.
She was here last time we was here and I asked her if she would come up but
she didn't show up..... well go ahead..) (Voice was probably Dave Spielman).
Well any way at this time Thunder City was, oh they supplied the people in
Round Valley in the vicinity of Thunder City, especially in the winter time any
of the residents of Round Valley would come to Thunder City, it was a two day
trip, you can't hardly feature that now. It was winter time and they had snow
roads. Usually they would come up in the morning when the roads were froze and
the horses could stay on top, in the afternoons when the snow got soft it was
an exceptional hoarse that could travel on that. When it was soft they would
slide off and get down. It reminds me of the time -------------- inaudible. - --
_ I drove team and moved stock to both their stores to what is now
They seen
Hamilton's store in Cascade. Logue brothers built that building. / Thunder City
was dead when the railroad came through and they moved over there, I took
two 1,orses and a sleigh in the winter time and moved the stock from the stores to
Cascade and I remember once I was late getting back, I used to get up real early
in the morning and go when the roads were solid. The horses got to slipping off
ood
this road and couldn't travel, they weren't what we called snow horses in those
days. There I was and couldn't go no place. I unhitched them and then there was
W
Jack Ready,
another old timer lived right there and could see I was having trouble./ lie
could see I was having trouble, so he put on a pair of skiis, that was the
way they traveled in those days. He come over there and helped me, we rustled
a shovel and shoveled out a place for these horses to stay that night and then
he skiied back to his place and carried some hay over tin his back over to feed
those horses for the night. The next morning of course the snow was froze and
we hitched the horses up and went on back to Thunder City. Xt"X Another
voice..... This Jack Ready.. Murl Ready you know is Road Supervisor for the
County, that was Jack Ready's son.. He is still busy on the job.... answer
from Spielman, well hg's young.... answer well, I guess he is.....
Frank says, well, you had better let someone else talk that is about all I
know.
Dave Spielman speaking.... here is an old map I picked up, it doesn't show
things too plain, it has some of Adams County and Valley County and this was
before there was a New Meadows and before there was a Cascade. I'll pass it
around if you want to look at it.
A voice from the audience asks where Thunder City is now from the highway.
Old Thunder City, if you leave Cascade, as you leave Cascade and go across
the river bridge going south, south east, you make the turn in the road, you
know where Pat -Arn is, well, that is the turn, right in the turn in the
Old Thunder City. It goes through what was the center of it. The old barn
that used to be on the Woyer place was just burned down in the last month or so,
it's not there now. The old livery stable that John
had, that
was Ted Harwood's stepdad, is still there, the stable isn't there but the house
is, a little square house there about a 4 room house. It is on the left hand
side going down..... mingled voices inaudible.... That was the main seat of
Thunder City. Right now you come from Cascade right straight and curve around
I
like this by Pat Allen's place. The road before came this way and come out this
way coming across the valley. In Thunder City there was the a store here, the
post office here, the blacksmith shop here, the other store, Logue brothers
other store, drygoods storethat was the one if you wanted gum boots or gingham
or calico, Logue grabbed the key and went down the sidewalk, they had a board
sidewalk, and then just across the road, the road come in here, right in here
was the old hotel run by Armstrong, then on down here was Warner Brothers Ranch
and the old barn that was just burned down or torn down. The road that goes
out east of here went over pretty close to Warner's Mill, they had a sawmill
and circled over into Piersall and in to Scout Valley and on in to Yellowpine
and that country over there. The main street of Thunder City ran east and
west. You know where all the dredge ponds are, the road went out of Thunder City
just like that. The schoolhouse sat right in here. Logue brothers had a warehouse
right in here, it set up on piling probably 2 feet high and Jerry Logue, that is
John Logue's son, he used to swipe all the tobacco out of the store and we rolled
our own and smoked pipes underneath this warehouse, God knows how we kept from
stock
burning it down. The warehouse had bailed hay, -suft salt, grain and all that.
Anytime we got tired of Tuxedo then we got the Prince Albert, we didn't like
Prince Albert we had Bull Durham, didn't want that we had something else, so
we had our choice of tobacco. end of tape..........
H
Start of new tape....... now Ted Harwood is about my age, probably a few days
younger. lie and I used to fight in Thunder City every day Rx and that big tall
Indian, he was the town cop, and about the time I would get him down Enis would
come around and pull us apart.
Spielman speaking... Dave was speaking about this Warner brothers
sawmill, which was straight east of Thunder City. That was a water power driven
saw mill. About the last time it was operated was either 1913, or about. This
rancher I worked for cut some logs and we would take the logs to the mill and the
mill would cut them into lumber for a certain percentage, that was my first
experience in the woods. I went out and help him cut these logs. It was on Big
Creek.
To anybody that wants to know the location of Thunder City, I think I can make
it a lot plainer now. The first building beyond Cascade airport on the azxpaxt
highway is from Thunder City. Where Pat Allen lives now, that was part of
the Warner brothers old ranch. There was a big two story house at one time
and there was a real old barn there. One of the big stocks in trade at Logue
brothers store was supplies for the sheep men. Years before the sheep men used
to come clear in with pack strings, I guess 2/3 of the supplies was stock salt,
the rest was the stuff sheep herders used. That was quite a trip, so they
finally went to hauling supplies from Thunder City into the old town of Knox,
which is down the river from what is now Orin Lake. It was at that time a
couple of people run that, it was almost a legend, there might be a few people
who remember, old Molly Kessler, old Molly was a mother to everyone. One year
therg, I forget which year it was I think around '13 or '14 I drove freight
team, I was driving for Ted Harwood's stepdad, We didn't have really horses
in those days, they were just Cayuoses. was a load, of course that
road was quite a road in those days. It was such a road, it was in 1913 the
first Model T was getting in there. The Logue brothers bought the first two
of them, one for each family. Old Len run the saloon, he bought one,
everybody got to telling about what they could do with their Fords. Someone
come up with a $50 bet that they couldn't drive to Knox with their Fords.
was a gamblin' man and he called the bet. In order to
win the bet, which he won, he took the body off this Model T Ford and just laid
a board on the gas tank, which was under the seat, three men went in, that is
the way they rode this Ford . When they come to these high centers they carried
the Model T across ................lots of lalughter ............ he won the $50 bet.
I can remember hauling freight over that road, there was many and many a place
a� that time you would drop off of one board and go right straight down to another.
Dave speaks...... I remember him driving the freight then... Frank was 16 years
team
old and he was driving the freight $a-m into Knox, and I got to to with him. It
go
was over 4th of July, we were going to be there on the 4th of July. It was a
days trip in there. I remember we got in there, and the whiskey, boy did they
have it up there, of course it wasn't legal then, it was during prohibition
then, but there was a fellow by the name of Dukey Walls that brought moonshine
liquor from McCall into Knox for the big 4th of July celebration. The way he
come in was from Lick Creek, and along the river to Knox, but that was where
they got the liquor was from McCall. I think that is where all the moonshiners
were at that time. I remember I was just a kid and he was only 16 and he got
real stewed and he had lots. of money, I don't know $3 or $4, and he was giving
it to everybody and I was thinking about the old gal or whoever it was that
run the hotel over there, I was wondering how the devil we were going to pay
for our meals and the nights stay when we got- ready to leave, and do you know
how we left town the next day ?, he hitched up those four horses, why he was
still drunk, and got up on the seat and got the whip back and he just let out
a great big whoop and we went out with the rocks just a jumping out from under
that wagon and when we got to along Big Creek way and there was the game warden,
i 7«I•y
Len Exislwe -j and Frank stopped to fish with him and caught some fish and he
wanted to see his license and he wouldn't show it to him and he teased Fw- i-&bee
for a while and finally showed it to him, he was still drunk the next day.
Frank speaking ...... I guess it is okay for you to tell that one, but I sowed
my wild oats when I was young... As Dave told that story I'll tell one, I shouldn't
tell it as it is on Ted Harwood but Ted is here and I'll leave in the morning so
I'lltell it.
Ted's brother George, George was a
I was driving this
freight team for Tots stepdad, the nights that I would be in Thunder City I would
have to camp out in their yard, but I was 16 years old then and I was a man so I
chewed tobacco. I would take a plug and just a little piece about that long would
do me for a trip in and back, I kept a supply in my tent. George, Ted and Dave
they got to investigating my tent and they found this chewing tobacco. They thought
I
it would be fun to chew tobacco so they all took a chew of this tobacco. About
that time Ted's mother came out and caught them chewing tobacco. She made them
tell her where they got the tobacco. They told her they got it out in my tent,
so she goes out to my tent and she cuts out three slices of the chaw of tobacco,
and marches all three kids over and sets them down on the back step of their
hNx=iR house and made them take a bite out of this and chew on this and about
the time she thought they had all the good out of it she would have them spit
it out and take another chew, I doubt very much if any one of the three kids
has ever taken a chew of tobacco since. Lots of laughter.
If anyone has any questions that I can answer about that... I'm not used
to talking very much.
Dave asks, I don't think you ever mentioned the year we came in here........
xaszh replies, 1912.
Dave says, I am going to talk about myself for a little bit........
We were around Cascade a lot. In fact I graduated from high school in
1922 as the smartest boy in the class, and I went to work for Sollie Callendar,
Frank Callendar's Dad, he had the meat market there in Cascade. Frank was probably
about 12 or 13 years old when I worked for Sollie. I was working on the farm that
summer and Sollie Callendar came out to hire me away from the other guy so I went
to work for him, I thought boy I'll be a butcher and be able to talk to the pretty
girls most of the time. I think i.t was about three years I worked for him before
they let me up in the front room to cut meat , I was building fence, hauling hides,
and everything but cutting meat, I was in the back room pulling the meat off the
heads, rendering lard, suet, making sausage. That is the reason I'd like Fran:
to attend here tonight so I could tell a few things about him. Actually he turned
out better than we thought he would...... laughter...... I think last meeting you
talking
had Mabel Madden, what is her name Hasbrouck. She was :taiing about old Fred Golden,
I
the butcher., the first butcher in the Valley. Well he had a little old shed there
in Thunder City that he used to come over to once in a while of of course the only
10.
refrigeration you had then was ice. I think when I come up here to the Valley
and worked for Bill Dineharkwas the first time I ever knew about mechanical
refrigeration, in Cascade we used ice and Dinehard used ice until I think up
until about 1930 or 1931 before we used mechanical refrigeration.
Frank-speaking ....... Dave speaking of Callendar put me in mind of.. in 1912
when I came here Sollie Callendar and his brother I believe it was, Winston
Callendar they run a four horse station, that is how I came in here, the railroad
was built further up, it wasn't through, but they only carried passengers to
Montour. In Montour you got on the stage. I remember traveling all night,
we went from Montrour to Sweet, up through Ola, up through High Valley, and
down into what is now Cougar Mountain Lodge now. When we got to just this side
of Thunder City, we had traveled all night, we pulled over to this ranch and
I told the driver where I was going and he let me off. John Hobbs was driving
the atage. It was just getting daylight, we traveled all night.
Dave asks, is there any one who want to know anything. Frank says there are
probably some here who knows more than we do. Dave says no, the only one here
who knows anything, and he's not old enough, is probably kraxkx Bob McBride .
Bob has lived here all his life you know.
from audience, no it was before that.
When was that 1913 or 1914, answer
Dave says...... we lived on this ranch out from Thunder City when we first
came here. I believe, now I'm not sure but I believe my dad when he went to
work there I believe his salary was $40 a month and we got milk, eggs, the house
furnished, that was the salary then. There was no income taxes then.
Frank speaking.... Incidentally, at that time or a year or so later two
(Tom or Don)
murder cases were tried in that area, one of then was out at old Crawford's
Horace
father was shot there then, At one time when I was a kid
I worked for Horace, I knew the man who was convicted of the killing. At the
same time there was two brothers that lived down, just about now where Hazel Hasbrouck
lives, they were the Dunn brothers, they were found murdered there and I don't
11.
think that case was ever followed through. There were all kinds of rumors of
what happened, and so on. Also, about the same time the year I came here or
the year before there was a Murder case in Stanley. It was over gambling.....
voice from the audience..... it wasn't murder, they didn't kill him. Bectel
lived, they didn't kill him.... Frank says, I don't want to argue yith you,
but I'm pretty sure they killed him. I think you're a liar cause they did
kill him .... Also there was a murder case there, I don't remember too much of
the particulars of that one. His name was Sinclair. I remember old John Emery's
trial was held at Idaho City and shortly after that, Emery's run a hotel and
that building was moved to Cascade, it was part of what is now the Valley Club.
.... much conversation intermingled......
Jess LaFever moved a building over to Cascade and it was a barber shop.
....question from audience.... did they move any of the buildings from Thunder
City into Cascade? ...... I don't recall any of the buildings they moved from
Thunder City... I think there were one or two buildings torn down for the
lumber...:. question from the audience.... is that the reason there were three
towns so close together..... Stanley, Crawford, and.......
• Fxank answers... inaudible.... Thunder City and Crawford was only 5 miles
Van Wyck Van Wyck
apart, it was about 4 to 5 miles over to ftaxiny, Rkantay was an older town than
Crawford was. Dave says ...... To go to Van Wyck you take the road that goes over
the hill to the golf course now in Cascade, that is the old road and down over
the hill into the Valley where the old town of Crawford was. Frank says... I
wouldn't be surprised that was the first bank in this valley. There was a bank
there at one time. Question from the audience...... where did the town of Van Wyck
get its name ?.... end of tape...........
New tape....... Frank speaking..... the educated people call it Cascade.
Dave speaking.... Callendar's Slaughter House was just west of the Cascade Dam
probably a 100 yards. It set right on the river, there was a swimming pool at
Jamison Hot Springs, the hot springs was east of the slaughter house.
12.
It is up above the Lake. voice from the audience.... I thought they
covered up the hot springs with the lake, yes it is under water now..
Mabel Madden was here and talked, not that I knew Mabel too good, but
I remember myself (Frank speaking) , Nokes, Fred Nokes oldest
boy, the other people passed away a short time ago, Ted Harwood's sister Bea,
and myself and I think Terry Logue, a brother younger than Herman. We all go
to Thunder City to attend Mabel Madden's eighth grade graduation exercises.
Question from the audience, There was some people who lived there in the
early days, they had a ranch up there on the present road into Warm Springs
in Scott Valley, the Scott family who came in there from California, do you
know anything about them? -F-r -ask answers..... I don't recall anything about
that family, at the time I was there it was the Taylor place, and Baker, Willie
Baker, they had a place there and there was some people by the name of Harvey
that had a home in there. There was two brothers, Fred and Wes. There was
another old fellow up there, he was a bachelor, name of Delano, he was a real
at that time. A lot of them they didn't take the ground up for
the farming, they took it up a lot of them for timber claims. This Taylor
place they had a son and a daughter and the daughter was a school teacher. If
they lived in Scott Valley she must have been the only teacher there. I remember
hearing something about the Scott's but I never knew them.
Dave says.... you know along about then was when the fishing was good in
Big Creek, you could go up to Scott Valley and there was more big trout and
you could go up there and catch a hundred in a day. There was a blacksmith there
in Thunder City and he was always going up to Scott Valley to catch a hundred
fish, there was no limit at that time, by the way Walt Cromwell was one of the
early Probate Judge's in the County, he was also a Deputy Sheriff for a while.
` Question from the audience, Did Warner's have a sawmill in order to make the
lumber for all these buildings or what? Frank answers.... well I don't know I
13.
don't think there was another saw mill in the country. Questi.on..... when did -
he get the steam engine, did he have that when you were there ?...... Frank
answers..... he must have got that about that time because I remember it being
run afterwards by a steam engine. Question.... Do you know what happened to
the steam engine? No..... From audience, Would you like to know where it
is? It is buried under the Lake, we bought it and used it to run a small saw
mill and we buried it. F -rank says, well there was a lot of saw mills later
you know. F=affk says.... you used to go down to the Hot Springs..... answer,
well..... once in a while..... lots of laughter..... The building was burned
down before we bought the ranch but we did use it and several people used it
besides us(women's voice). I didn't come up here until 1939.. Frank says.. along
in 1916 and 1917 they were logging quite a bit along in there. Frank says.....
In those days there was no place to take a bath in those lumber camps and
unless there was something like the hot springs we probably had a bath once
a year. We would go down to the hot springs and all take a bath, we :could
take our clothes down there and wash them, then a few years later just north
of Arlington, what we used to call the old Rash place, there was a hot springs
there and we used that hot springs for the same purpose.
Dave says.... That is where the old dentist lived, wasn't it. Doc Burke, he
used to travel around the Valley, he had a team and a buggy, no I think he only
used one horse and he had this in his buggy, this old milling machine, I don't
know it looked like a deal all most, and he would go around visiting
the farmers to see if anyone needed any dental work, well he would unload there
and you fed him and put him up for the night and he took care of your teeth, but
he still charged you for it....... Frank says.... he was also a part time veterinarian
Lots of laughter...... 'Frank says, I don't think he had a license to practice
dentistry,.... Dave says.... well I don't think you had a license to practice
calf doctoring..... answer, well, no I didn't......
You were talddng about steam engines.. well I was working for Lawrence
14.
he had a and he built his mill there. I worked for him
before he moved to Van Wyck. He had a fire and it burned up the engine and
I was working for him rebuilding that mill and I happen to remember in Thunder
City there used to be these pieces for these boilers and we hauled them into
Thunder Mountain to fix these old steam engines. He picked up a steam engine,
I don't know who owned it or anything about it, but it was brand new and it
was unloaded off the freight way there and he was going to put it in his sawmill.
Frank,speaking.... well the story how thex all these steam engines happen
to be here, it was a few years before our time, these freight outfits were all
hauling this equipment into the Thunder Mountain mines and the boom went bust
and they just unloaded all this machinery wherever the fellows wanted it.
.....lots of intermingled conversation.... inaudible.........
That Thunder Mountain Boom was before our time (RxvRxspeaking). I think it
was along in '07,'08 or '09.
Frank speaking, you know it was the sheep outfits, they came to Thunder City
to get their stock salt, they came out from Bear Valley and all back in there,
they came out to Thunder City. We used to get a lot of what they called Camp
Tenders from these sheep camps. A good share of them were Basque o's. We got
several of them in there at one time, especially at the time the saloon was
running there. Dave says.... you know at that time there was an awful lot of
sheep that came in here. There was two big sheep outfits, one of them was
Little and the other one was Van Dusen, and they were both from Emmett,
they were the big ones and there was one, I think he was from around Boise or
maybe out at Mountain Home and that was Archibald. He was basque. This Van Dusen
at one time was supposed to have been the biggest independent sheepman in the
United States and he had well over 200 bands of sheep and thats a lot of sheep.
Well, I guess that's about all unless there is something someone else wants
to talk about.... By the way, I just remember back, and you talk about this
Scott, if I remember right the old Taylor place was the old Scott place. It was
15.
the first place you came to going snkm from Thunder City into Scott Valley.
That was before I came here (Frank speaking). A big two story house there,
that was the Taylor place and at one time it was used as a stopping place
on the route from Thunder City into Thunder Mountain.
This summer that I was hauling Freight into there I spoke of Molly Kessler
being kinda of a motherly person to everybody, all Jim, he wan't too ambitious,
he had another old fellow, a bachelor he used to stay with, Molly would get
them to go out once in a while and catch a mess of fish, it was usually on
the menu every day, but I was hauling this freight and making my regular
trips, we only hauled 30 hundred, that doesn't sound like very much, four
horses, like I say these were Cayuses, not really horses. It was sometime
in July, a snow storm came up and the horses feet balled up with snow and
they couldn't hardly stand up pulling the wagon. I had a camp at what they
call Horse Pine Flats over there and I camped there overnight, all I had was
a lunch to eat because every day I made it into Warm Lake, but anyway Molly
knew I was supposed to be in this night and she figured something sure had
happened to me, the next morning I got up, I never unharnessed the horses,
I left the harnesses on them, I had one balky horse, and I had a dickens of
a time getting them started, they was all cold.and chilly, three horses couldn't
hardly handle the wagon and this one finally pitched in enoughk to get the wagon
going, and I got up oh to about what they call Prince Albert Springs up there
and here come this old Jim and this fellow coming out on a buckboard to meet me.
I wondered how they got out, I got on into Warm Lake and Molly just swore that
something had happened to me, she kicked them out and made them come over the
hill to see what had happened..... lots of laughter..... Molly was one of these
women that went out and got the meat in the fall of the year. Jim, oh sometimes
he would go out and get one pretty close to Knox, at that time it
I
was called Hard Knox, there was too Know, they called that Hard Knox. Molly
would always go out and get the winter's meat, sometimes Jim would help her.
16.
It probably took maybe 15 or 20, not over 30 minutes to get all the fish you
could possibly eat in a days time. I was driving this freight team and going
do,m the other side of Warm Lake summit, was the name of that
Creek, I used to sometimes stop the horses there and I caught fish while setting
in the wagon.
Question from the audience..... how many people lived there in Thunder City?
Dave answers, they didn't take a census..... -wit says ... There were the Conder's ( ?)
family, there were three kids, Rupe and his wife, that's wife, there was Enis Smith
and his wife and three kids was 5 more, he had two stepdaughters. There was the
Ted
Harwood's two sisters and a brother and him, the Callendar's and the Logue's, Fred
Logue and three boys and one girl, Dave says, yes one girl, she graduated in
my class when I was the smartest boy in the class....... inaudible..........
It was everyplace in the Valley was a ranch, there weren't too many places
that were over 100 head, everyone had a few head of cattle and a few hogs,
now they have consolidated into large ranches. Dave says, actually there are
very few cows in the Valley now that are owned by the people who live here. Most
of them are brought up from outside, just for the summer months. You know what
happened, there used to be two butchers, along in 1922 and on, Bill Dinehart
was up here in McCall and Callendar was in Cascade, they were the two big butchers,
the people here sold there cattle,.other than the local butchers, they were
shipped to Portland but what happened Sollie Callendar and Bill Dinehart bought
the biggest share of the cattle in those times, what they would do, they would
buy the whole thing, the old cows, the bulls and the hefers, end of tape......
New tape......
I don't know what it is, I think it is maybe this danged mechanical
refrigeration, we used to eat the spare ribs the first thing because they didn't
keep too good and the liver and the heart, you had to eat the liver and the heart
and the spareribs first before you eat any of the other.
17.
Dave. speaking...
When we used to butcher at home all the farmers would gather together
in one place and all butcher at the same time. I remember at home you could
hardly wait until we could get into the real meat, we had to eat the damn
liver first.
-Frank speaking...
I don't know if it means anything to anybody, but it has meant a lot
to me since I have left here and I left here about 6 years ago, and live
down there in Star. All I have to do is set there and rubber and when I
get tired of setting and rubbering I get in the car and drive around the
country. I think there are very very few people that can realize how
many cattle are on feed lots in Boise Valley. I fish right out on highway 44
and also the Star Road where it goes , south of Nampa, I have a recliner
and if I get it set just right I can set and watch that intersection, I
watched and I was amazed at how many cattle in the spring, that are hauled
in here to pasture and then in the fall hauling them out. When I got to
setting down there and watching and I never counted then or attempted to make
an estimation but it is amazing how many cattle are hauled, a
lot of them are gathered up by individual ranchers and they take them out and
they are fattened at these feed yards, these commercial feed yards. Some of
these feed yards I don't think hold the heavy cattle, they feed them for so
much a pound gain that they put on. I was talking to one of these feed lot
operators, he mmu didn't own the feed lot, just about 3 weeks ago. There was
some sort of a controversy over feeding them some sort of a cattle food to
make them fat and sassy,:and the pure food outfits come up with a.... I think
the ruling was they have to take this chemical out of their feed for a certain
length of time before they went for slaughter. The stuff they give the cattle
was used to raise the price of meat because they had to give them more feed due
to this chemical. I was amazed at how many cattle there are. I don't have
10
anything to do, I get tired of sitting at home and I get in my car and drive
around. My first trip the other day I went over to Twin Falls, I was tired
of driving the freeways, I took the highway and went through the little town
of Hamilton over there and down the Slate River and down throughk that grand view
country. There was lots of cattle over there, and in what they call Apache
Valley both ways from Twan Falls, it is just like.Boise Valley, I didn't know
there was that much cattle over there. This big packing company, the Missouri
Packing
REk$ng Company, it was supposed to get into operation out south of town this
fall, and I was reading an article the :ku other day about how many thousand
head of cattle it would take to supply them. You go out and look at one of
these big feed lots, I asked a fellow, how many cattle you got here, and he
said about 8,000 head here, to look at it I couldn't believe that, but he
had no reason to lie to me. They are in these fences and they can't walk
around.much so they fatten faster.
Question from the audience....... When you were in Thunder City was the
out in the pastures��
grass /like they say it was, Timothy , etc. -Fk says...... Native grass down
in the meadows...... Question, what has happened to it ?....... Well, a lot of
raising timothy
people thought they were going to get rich /so they plowed up the native grass.
A lot of that pasture was whtat they called bunch grass, and then of course down
in the bottoms they had kind of a sue ( ?) grass, I don't know it wasn't considered
to be good pasture. And during this time everybody in Long Valley was going to
get rich raising Timothy Seed, well they went out there with a plow and plowed up
all the land, and there was quite a bit of money made in this Valley raising
Timothy Seed for a while. They raisied Clover Seed too, but they could raise
Timothy Seed without irrigation at that time. Dave says.... the biggest share of
the people that fed their cattle here in the winter, they fed it with this wild
hay. It was a native grass. There are probably a few places they still have
the old wild grass or native grass but they are very few.
19.
It had a chance to grow higher at that time because there wasn't so much
to eat off of it.
Where did Nancy
live?
(Question from the
audience). Well,
they were living right
in Thunder Bolt
here. Nancy has a
sister, half - sister,
they lived down on Big Creek from Thunder City there about 1/2 mile down through
there. Question, where did Grandaddy Crawford live?..... Well when I first
knew your Grandaddy Crawford he lived on what was called the Haybailer Place.
Do you know where the
Cemetary is? XXKXXXX Just across the
road is the Haybailer place. Grandaddy Crawford lived there in 1912 because
I was traveling with this threshing machine, that was the first time I seen
Mary. I had met and Nancy prior to that. If I recall right there
they left there and went to Nampa or rather left there and went to Emmett and
they lived in Emmett for several years, then the old man Crawford came back
to Round Valley, what used to be called the old Neffs place. He bought that
for a ranch there, last I recall old Jerk Crawford we called him, that was
where they lived it was called the Neff place.
Confused intermingled voices,..... inaudible...
Question, where the Kirby's here then? Yes old _Dwight(?) Kirby he was
prosecuting Attorney when Valley County was formed. He was also a banker.
Dave Kirby lived on down in the Valley. E Kirby was Frank Kirby's son,
Ethel Kirby was Mother of the Year a couple of years ago, well she was a sister
to Jack Morgan of New Meadows.
Mingled voices, inaudible.
Dave says..... You know you were taRng about deer, the first blizzard we
lived on the Wendt Ranch, just north of Thunder City and I walked to school in
the winter time, it was about 3 miles across the field there. It got awfully
cold in those days doom there, it got colder and they had a whole lot of snow,
but I would carry a lunch in one of these 4 or 5 lb lard buckets to school and I
20.
v
would trade it off to the other kids. You know the old timers there because
all they brought to school was jerky and I would trade my lunch for jerky.
The deal was this if you took your lunch bucket you had to put it in the cloak
room and of course it was cold except in the middle of the room and when you
went out there at noon to get your lunch it was harder than a rock, it was
froze. I remember Jerry Logue, he was just a little older than I, I think
he was a year ahead of me. Our ink would be frozen up, you know they had
inkwells in the old time desks and they would be frozen up so we would put
we forgot it and
our ink bottle up on top of the stove, and I remember one day /it got to boilding
and blew the cork out, I'll never forget that it blew ink all over everything.
Whny was it Jerk Crawford? (Question from the audience). His name was
Jurden Crawford and they called him Jerk... tT4ank- says..... well he is gone now
and it is all ancient history but he was one of these moonshiners in the moonshine
i�--
days......, lots of laughter..... Dave says, F don't you start telling about
the moonshiners up in this end of the town........ says, well I'm glad
you don't want me to spout all I know..... end of tape.
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Photo courtesy David Spielman
Spielman and students before pagoda in Xi'an.
r -3 I q
began contradicting the reports from
Western media.
Claiming that the likes of VOA
were lying, they issued these re-
ports one to three days after inter-
cepting the broadcasts they were
countering. The government
sources claimed that nobody had
been killed by the military, but that
citizens had attacked soldiers and
destroyed military vehicles. In addi-
tion, they said that the trouble was
incited by just a few "trouble -mak-
ers".
Some students on my campus
denied that anyone had been killed
in Tian'anmen Square, but others
reported a wide variety of figures,
ranging from 23 to 3,000. Numer-
ous students told me that most of
the university community did not
believe the government media. As
time passed, however, more and
more students claimed to believe
the Chinese reports. They were be-
ing told not to believe VOA or
BBC.
My supervisor, seeing my
copies of typewritten summaries of
VOA broadcasts, told me not to
distribute them to students, but said
I could feel free to have my own
opinions.
Students were very optimistic
after receiving substantial support
from the citizenry in late May, but
the bloody invasion of Tian'anmen
on June 4 caused their morale to
plummet. Not in the mood to re-
sume their study routines, but afraid
to demonstrate any more, most
striking students went home to
their families.
The administration on my cam-
pus tried desperately to restore rou-
tine by sending telegrams to stu-
dents' homes all over China. Stu-
dents returned to take their final ex-
aminations, but attendance in regu-
lar class sessions remained sparse.
Discouraged about the suppression
of the student movement and about
the future, the students seemed very
dejected.
For awhile they remained eager
to discuss the political situation
"Most participants in the student
movement do not want to overthrow
China's current government system,
but to gain a greater voice in govern-
ment affairs and to see the corruption
cleaned up."
with me in private, but after learn-
ing that authorities had come to
campus to look for protesters,
many of them began to avoid me.
they became especially paranoid
about traveling with foreigners.
Meanwhile, the parents of a
young Chinese woman who I had
proposed to, asked us to terminate
our courtship for fear that the whole
family would be punished for asso-
ciating with a Westerner.
Following the U.S. govern-
ment's advisory to leave China, I
strongly considered leaving. But no
airlifts were coming to Van, and I
heard that the situations at Beijing
and Shanghai airports were very
tense and that some people were
having great difficulty getting
flights out of Hong Kong. I conse-
quently concluded that it would be
safer and more convenient to stay
put.
When I did leave, I had trouble
booking a flight from Xi an to Bei-
jing. Northwest Airlines was not
able to give me a direct flight from
Beijing, so they arranged for me to
fly to Tokyo on a Chinese airliner
and then transfer to a Northwest
flight to Seattle.
Since I saw numerous other for-
eigners in the city during this time,
I assumed it was safe, but I tried to
be cautious. Seeing many armed
soldiers on the streets, I tried not to
walk past any spot too often, lest I
arouse suspicion. However, I did a
lot of walking and even visited
some Chinese friends twice.
Communication between the
Unites States and China was some-
times difficult, but this was mainly
due to China's poor infrastructure.
Even before the upheaval, I had had
difficulties placing calls to Idaho,
and my university's backward tele-
phone service makes it virtually
impossible to call that institution
from abroad.
My family and the U of I used
telex to reach me quickly. These
messages, taking three days, were
not hindered at all and my phone
call to my mother on June 9 went
through almost immediately. Be-
cause of the volume of inquiries,
however, I was unable to complete
my call the U.S. embassy the same
day.
Fortunately, I never found my-
self in danger, but the massive pro-
paganda campaign, the monitoring
activities, and the search for pro -
democracy students made me feel
uneasy. Although I never felt scared
in Beijing, I did not want to push
my luck during martial law. One
soldier asked me where I was going,
but did not act threatening.
I would like to return to China,
but probably not in the near future.
Sensing that the situation is poten-
tially very dangerous for Ameri-
cans, I want to wait for an im-
provement in the political climate.
I think that there will be a
stalemate until top leader Deng Xi-
aping dies, and then there will be a
difficult power struggle between
hardliners and moderates. Political
disarray in China might persist for
many years. When order is restored,
however, I think that it could again
be worthwhile to work in that
country.
Meanwhile, I think that as an
English teacher, I can do more good
elsewhere since Chinese students
will probably have little opportu-
nity to use their English for awhile.
The Chinese government is now
allowing very few students to go
abroad and few native English
speakers are now entering China or
remaining there.
Most participants in the student
movement do not want to over-
throw China's current government
?1a4 X45
system, but to gain a greater voice
in government affairs and to see the
corruption cleaned up. Communism
will not be eradicated as long as the
majority chooses not to eliminate
it.
Even with a substantially greater
degree of democracy, such a system
can be retained. It is possible for
people to have a say in political af-
fairs even if the economy remains
largely under government owner-
ship.
I think it is very possible to at-
tain more democracy, since most
Chinese would probably like to
have it. As citizens of the world's
most populous nation, these people
are a mighty force, but they have an
extremely tough battle to fight. If
they band together in loyal
cooperation, they can win, but there
will probably be much bloodshed.
If these people decide they want
to dispense with communism com-
pletely, they are capable of realizing
that goal if they work closely and
valiantly together. Despite horren-
dous opposition, a committed and
united group of people can accom-
plish much. Imagine what can hap-
pen when a billion committed peo-
ple cooperate!