HomeMy Public PortalAbout06-28-2000PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES - JUNE 28, 2000
PRESENT: LENNY LEUER, SUSIE MACKAY, ELIZABETH WEIR, JERRY BROST,
TOM SUPEL AND JIM LANE. ALSO PRESENT: PLANNING AND
ZONING ADMINISTRATOR LOREN KOHNEN, PLANNING
CONSULTANT BILL THIBAULT, CITY ENGINEER TOM KELLOGG AND
PLANNING AND ZONING ASSISTANT SANDIE LARSON.
ABSENT: BRUCE WORKMAN
Chairperson Lenny Leuer called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m.
Lenny reminded everyone that this was a public meeting, but not a public hearing. After
the applicants and staff had presented their material and gone over it, if any one
attending had any comments, we would then hear them. He said that Bill Thibault
would start with a short presentation and then the applicants would give their
presentation.
Bill Thibault, Thibault Associates, planning consultant for the City, gave a brief synopsis
of what had been occurring. The City had adopted a PUD ordinance that covered the
PUD1 and PUD2 areas. Tonight the application concerned PUD1. Tonight's concept
plan is based on this new PUD ordinance, PUD1, which covers the `Elwell' property. He
said that this concept plan needs to be reviewed under the guide of the ordinance. Bill
stated that some of staffs concerns included: 1) some encroachment in the area that is
to be preserved; 2) proposing some development in the steep slope area; 3) the N-S
trail; 4) SW corner - the buffer strip not completely done. Bill said that the City has
received some rationale from the applicants on why they have deviated from the
guidelines. He felt that the overall plan was a good one, but some changes were
needed. He said tonight's findings would go to the city council and the developer will
use the comments from tonight and from the city council in their application for re-
zoning and preliminary plat. Bill also mentioned that the drainage plan is a complex
issue that needs to be looked at.
David Newman, Restoration Development, 1521 94th Lane NE, Blaine, said he first
wanted to thank the planning commission for holding this special meeting and also
wanted to thank the staff for keeping them so well informed. He said that meetings
were scheduled to go over concerns and because of being so well informed, they were
not at all surprised at the staff memos for tonight's meeting. Dave said that the concept
plan is very detailed and he said if it is adopted by the city council, will then come back
with the preliminary plat with more detail. He said they would touch on the drainage
issue tonight, but they realize that it needs more work. He said that when he 1st came
to the city he did not know about conservation developments and since then has
learned a lot. He introduced Steve Apfelbaum, John Uban, and Marty Campion that
were here tonight to help with the presentation.. He said that Steve would explain the
conservation development and John would talk about the overall plan. He said they
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would also assure us that the open space will be permanent open space. Dave said
that Restoration Development was made up of: Bancor Group, Lundgren Brothers and
VKO Enterprises (Vance Opperman).
Steve Apfelbaum, Applied Ecological Services - Wisconsin, had slides of various
landscapes, plants, etc. He stated that they wanted to restore some of the history of the
land and want others to look up to this project as an example of what can be done. He
stated that those who went on the tour of the property saw the major reshaping of the
land that has occurred over the years - canary grass, an Asian import, woods that look
wonderful from a distance, but there is nothing growing in the understory - buckthorn is
present - he stated that the developers are proposing to restore the land back to the
way it was. Steve had slides of work that had been done in Illinois at a development
called Prairie Crossing and also had slides of the Elwell property. He said earlier they
had toured the Elwell property and there had only been 2 bird species there when at this
time of night there should have been many more. He talked of restoring drainage ways
without impacting trees - reduce the undesirable shrubs and trees and keep the
desirable ones - he said this will take some major grading to restore the drainage ways -
he said they are very familiar with alternative ways to stabilize sites which are different
from engineering methods - he said that Prairie Crossing is a 700 acre development
which has much open space and was designed around what we call the stormwater
treatment train - this reduces the total amount of water that leaves the land - it was 50-
75% at Prairie Crossing - he said that swales are not ditches, they drain into prairies,
then into wetlands. He said that many of the residents at Prairie Crossing have chosen
native plantings vs manicured lawns.
John Uban, planner with Dahlgren, Shardlow, Uban, said that he wanted to show how
the ecological approach relates and integrates with the proposed design of homes. He
explained the concept and had slides - he said this development has a single minded
focus - ecological restoration with a system of upkeeping - stewardship of the land. He
had other slides of the property - he said that an overview of the property was needed
for the concept plan and planning. He said there are 150 lots and 95% of the lots abut
open space - 40% abut open space on 2 sides - he said there were 1000's of trees on
site and they will be planting many more. The inner trails will be `soft' trails and the
trails along 101 and Evergreen will be hard - he said the plan far exceeds the ordinance,
so their plan includes the bonus units for the total of 150 units. He said without the
bonus units, they could not do the extensive restoration.
Marc Anderson, Lundgren Brothers, said there will be a homeowners association and
covenants (a recorded document) that will govern architectural control. He said the
association will own the outlots and the covenants will govern that they stay preserved.
The PUD also calls for a conservancy - the job will be to come in periodically and
inspect that it is being done, the preservation, etc. He said the key to structure is
maintenance and education. The homeowners will pay an annual fee at about $1000
per year to maintain the conservation areas - he said the education plan is to hire a part
time ecologist who will be an employee of the homeowners association and educate
and help manage the program.
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D. Newman said they are excited about the project - he said on the south end there will
be areas of significant grading - he said once we remove the topsoil, we will have to
preserve and protect it. He said someone from Steve's company will be on site at all
times during the grading. He said this project is market driven - he said the remnant
piece on the east side of 101 will be left until the Plymouth side is being developed and
then will integrate into that. He said the 35% of the site is comprised of lots - that there
are unique environmental features - he mentioned the water train, the amount of lots
that about open space, the trails, buffers and the attempt to preserve views - tree
replacement - he said they felt that they had earned the bonus units with what they are
proposing to do with the restoration of the land. David said that they hope this is a
premier conservation development in the Twin Cities area and they think this plan does
that.
Staff:
Bill Thibault, planning consultant, highlighted the key issues. He said the ordinances
calls for 50% of the area to be preserved and their plan shows 58%. He said the plan
shows 22' street width and they are willing to make them 24'.
Loren Kohnen pointed out the area where it looks like the street is narrower.
B. Thibault said there is one way traffic around the cul de sac and if a road is too wide it
encourages parking, etc.. He said that the infrastructure is a key issue; who is
responsible for the open space; drainage of the system; he said the development is
consistent with the preservation guide, but wanted to look closer at the plantings, etc.;
slopes - 10' in some areas - he said the city was willing to discuss this; excavation for
the walk out units; N-S trail; trails.
J. Uban talked of the trails, he said that in some places it might need to be in the righ-of-
way, over the creek, etc. where 101 crosses and where the wetland juts into the ROW
they might have to bring the trail out and around it.
Lenny Leuer said he has a problem with any part of the trail being close to the traveled
portion of 101.
There was further discussion about trails.
Tom Supel wanted to know if the inner soft trails were public.
D. Newman said that some will be dedicated to the homeowners association - he said
they will not be checking id's, buy if there are a huge number of users, they may have to
restrict the use. He said the perimeter trails will be public.
J. Uban said that the park is not intended for a public park for community use.
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T. Supel said this seems like a use for very few residents. He also asked about the
trails having linkage to the adjacent community to the east. He said this is in the
recommendations, but does not see it mentioned.
B. Thibault said that the N-S trail needs to be better defined.
There was further discussion concerning the trails.
B. Thibault said that in the bonus provision, the developers are meeting and exceeding
in some areas - design and development and close to exceeding in the restoration area.
Jerry Brost asked how the building would be done - south to north.
D. Newman said they would start at the south end to the creek for Phase I and maybe
do Phase I of the estate lots to the north at the same time. He said there would also be
phasing of the restoration work. He also said they cannot get ahead of themselves.
T. Supel asked about the re -doing of the plan and J. Uban explained.
There was discussion about the re -alignment of County Road 101.
B. Thibault explained on an overhead how they answered the west border question - he
highlighted some of the other issues to talk about - grading, drainage, public roads, etc.
He said some items will not be known until the preliminary plat. He explained the
concept process: 1. Concept review and then to city council, then presented to
developer as a guideline; 2. Next step to have the public hearing on the zoning change
and the preliminary plat and 3. Developers construction plans are reviewed by staff.
Tom Kellogg, city engineer, showed alternative for the realignment of County Road 101
- he said the county is the authority here, this is just one option.
Paul Robinson said that this option came out of staff discussion and this is an idea for a
50 MPH curve.
Elizabeth Weir said that straight roadways encourage speeding.
B. Thibault said it is important for the county for the developers to show what they
propose for under the roadway by the creek.
T. Supel said that the developers don't have control over the road - so why #25.
B. Thibault said the county needs city approval for changing a design.
P. Robinson said this needs to be brought to the attention of the city council and then
get going with the county for a design.
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J. Brost said that a curve is needed to diminish the speed.
Jim Lane asked if the city knew the county's schedule on this.
P. Robinson said it is in the capital improvement plan for this year, but it will be delayed
because there has been no agreement on the design.
Jim Dillman said that is correct - probably is a 2-3 year project.
There was further discussion on 101.
J. Lane said we should do some fact finding on this.
There was discussion of roads, width, etc.
Susie Mackay said how about sidewalks.
L. Kohnen said he felt there should be sidewalks on at least one side of the road.
S. Apfelbaum said in Prairie Crossing there are connecting trails and roads are 18-24'
wide with 1-side parking.
B. Thibault said there is a relationship between the width of a road and pedestrians.
J. Dillman discussed manholes, placement, etc. He said that the street trees also need
discussion.
T. Supel asked if the City was going to supply more resources for the public works
department to take care of this subdivision.
J. Dillman said it is critical that the design calls for low maintenance now and in the
future. He said that durability and sustainability is important.
B. Thibault said that he recommends that the planning commission accepts this report
with any changes they may have.
L. Leuer asked about the burns that will happen annually.
S. Apfelbaum said it would not be large acreage all at once - he explained the
procedure and stated that it is very safe.
Planning commissioner Susie Mackay left the meeting at 10:07 p.m.
L. Leuer said that the lift station is needed and asked where it would dump to.
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Marty Campion showed on the map where and said that it would be a municipal lift
station.
L. Leuer asked if there would be access from 101 for the lift station.
M. Campion said it will show up on the larger map.
J. Dillman said that it would look like the one at Foxberry Farms.
M. Campion said that it would be replaced when the Elm Creek Interceptor comes thru.
L. Leuer said that during the drive around the site, he noticed manure piles and
wondered how they would be taken care of.
S. Apfelbaum said it had not been discussed - he said maybe spread it out where the
prairie will be - it is all old and composted.
L. Leuer asked Loren about the old farmstead, how many wells.
D. Newman said that will be part of the environmental study by the county - all that are
found will be properly abandoned except the one that is in use. He said in our purchase
agreement we have to accept the alignment that is done. He said that the county has
agreed it will happed in 2001.
L. Kohnen asked how many areas are to be protected and how many lots there are in
the protected areas.
P. Robinson said that in looking at the plan, 10-15 lots could be taken out of the
southern end and if the council is silent about bonuses, it will happen.
L. Kohnen said this is part of the bonus - where will you get land to take the place of
areas being developed. He said we want this to work properly. There wasn't a prairie
here before - it was all woods - he said it looks like the developer is trying to put lots in
areas that the city asked to be protected.
B. Thibault said that a judgement is to be made re the developers response to how they
are responding to our concerns.
T. Supel asked if there was a question on how precisely you read the PUD .
L. Kohnen thought it was result of what the committee, planning commission and city
council wanted.
J. Lane said that he is enthused with the concept. He had some questions:
1. What kind of entity is Restoration Development.
D. Newman said LLC and he is the president.
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2. Jim said he was concerned with the bonus units - he felt the concept plan should be
based on 120 units and improved from there.
3. Is it assumed that the bonus units will be sewered.
L. Kohnen said yes.
T. Supel asked Steve Apfelbaum about the storm water treatment train - is it effective
and stated that at least one city council member was very concerned with what works.
Do you have hard evidence that it works?
S. Apfelbaum said yes - he said it has worked in previous subdivisions and there are
papers that have been published, and there are research documents about it.
E. Weir asked how would it cope with a major storm.
S. Apfelbaum said it was designed to handle it. He put up a board and with M.
Campion, further explained it.
M. Campion said that as part of the preliminary plan, there will be a complete analysis
and we will meet with city engineer Tom Kellogg and go over it.
P. Robinson said that the hydrologist from Bonestroo was here and will work on it also.
J. Brost asked if in the impervious square footage, was the roof of the house taken into
account.
M. Campion said yes.
There was further discussion of drainage.
L. Weir said the drainage seems to be a key component in the development.
Helen Soars, 326 Cherry Hill Court, asked about the trails. She said that Cherry Hill is
likely to be part of the trail system - she said they don't seem to go into the open space.
She also asked if there had been any talk of the types of homes there would be.
D. Newman said there would be an architectural review committee. He said that
Lundgren's would not be the only builder and no one builder will be designated to one
neighborhood.
Sue , 18825 32nd Ave. N., Plymouth, said that they were looking for a new house
and wondered who the other builders may be.
D. Newman said LeGran Homes and they are also talking to other builders and real
estate people.
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Sue said that there are playgrounds, tennis courts and pools in other Lundgren
developments. Will you have that in this one.
D. Newman said they are looking at maybe a playground, but no tennis courts or pools.
Sue asked about the swales and what they were.
J. Uban put up an overhead and explained the difference between a swale and a ditch -
he said that a swale retains water at a 1-1 1/2% slope and a ditch at 2% minimum - he
said a swale is natural vs engineered.
Rita Gorman, Bloomington, said that her father-in-law has property to the west of this
proposal and wanted to know what was proposed next to his property. D. Newman
explained. Rita mentioned the speed on 101 and on Hackamore - she asked if there
had been any discussion of the increased traffic on Hackamore.
J. Uban said that the majority will use the 101 access.
Carolyn Smith, council member, said she has been looking at the plans and strongly
disagrees with a N-S road thru the development - she said she wants to see it kept
green and also asked about a possible hook up to Shawnee Woods Road - she said
she liked the idea of a public trail on the outside and also stated that it was unfair to the
community to think that the interior trails would be public - she said the investment in
this is substantial and maybe there should be a public trail someplace, but they
shouldn't all be public. She said she would like to see an extension of the trail from
Evergreen road and utilize the park in Hamel.
L. Leuer said it was time to come up with findings of fact to send forward to the city
council.
1. Follow up with overlay that was shown with modifications.
2. As such
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. Delete `add a park with' and replace with Consider - - -
8. As such
9.
10.
11. Delete `alter the plan and'
12. As such
13.
14.
15.
16.
4{
if if
4{
it ti
ii
I{ if
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8
17. Review instead of reduce - also delete `solely' . Add after 1st sentence - - and to
facilitate drainage with natural drainage system.
18. As such
19. " "
20.
21.
22. 4 out of 5 planning commissioners felt that the Evergreen trail should be off the
road - trail on Hackamore on the south side and no closer than 8' to the hard
surface of the road - other wording the same.
23. As such
24. Delete
25. Provide more details on the protected areas and reasons for
26. To be reviewed by the fire and police departments
if if
if
The approval of the planning commission is based on 120 units - Jim Lane and Tom
Supel agreed on this.
L. Weir felt that they have met many of our conditions and desires.
J. Brost said they are showing good intent
There was discussion on when the bonus units are determined
MOVED BY TOM SUPEL AND SECONDED BY ELIZABETH WEIR TO PASS ON THE
FINDINGS TO THE CITY COUNCIL.
MOTION PASSED.
2. MINUTES OF JUNE 13, 2000
There were a few minor changes on pages 4,5,7,9
MOVED BY ELIZABETH WEIR AND SECONDED BY TOM SUPEL TO ACCEPT THE
MINUTES AS AMENDED.
MOTION PASSED.
MOVED BY ELIZABETH WEIR AND SECONDED BY JERRY BROST TO ADJOURN.
MOTION PASSED.
Meeting adjourned at 1 a.m.
Planning and Zoning Assistant Date
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