HomeMy Public PortalAbout07-09-2002PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES - JULY 9, 2002
PRESENT: JERRY BROST, RON JOHNSON, RANDY BRINKMAN, DICK PICARD,
LENNY LEVER, BILL LOE, SHARON JOHNSON AND MARY VERBICK.
ALSO PRESENT: PLANNING AND ZONING ADMINISTRATOR LOREN
KOHNEN AND PLANNING AND ZONING ASSISTANT.
ABSENT: ELIZABETH WEIR
1. CALL TO ORDER
Vice chairperson called the meeting to order at 7:03 p.m. It was announced that item #4 - Wara
Real Estate would be tabled until the August meeting.
2. PATRICK ZILVERBERG - 1392 MEDINA ROAD - PLAT 3 LOTS TO 1 LOT -
PUBLIC HEARING
Loren Kohnen read his memo to the planning commission and put up an overhead of the site and
explained the request.
Linda Zilverberg said they have lived here for 7 years.
Bill Loe asked how far the back lot goes into the wetland and Loren pointed it out on the
overhead.
Sharon Johnson asked about the history of the property and were they separate lots when they
were purchased.
L. Zilverberg said yes, they were separate and they just never thought about combining them
until now. She said they should have done it sooner. They had taken the house down that was
there when they purchased the property and put up a new one.
The public hearing was closed.
MOVED BY BILL LOE AND SECONDED BY RANDY BRINKMAN TO RECOMMEND
PRELIMINARY AND FINAL APPROVAL FOR THE COMBINATION OF 3 LOTS TO 1'
LOT FOR PATRICK AND LINDA ZILVERBERG AT 1392 MEDINA ROAD WITH THE
FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:
1. Drainage and utility easements be shown on plat: 10' on the front line and 5' on side
and rear lines.
2. Wetlands be delineated and shown as a drainage easement
3. 33' of Medina Road be dedicated as road right-of-way.
Lenny Leuer wanted to make sure the applicant understands the conditions.
MOTION PASSED.
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3. ACE PROPERTIES - 5022 COUNTY ROAD 101 - SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR
OFFICE BUILDING - PUBLIC HEARING
Loren Kohnen read his memo to the planning commission and put up overheads of the area and
of the proposal.
Larry Palm, Ace Properties, introduced those here tonight for this application: Todd Mohagen,
architect and Deb Gniftke, Ace Properties.
Bill Loe asked if this property has always been zoned commercial and Loren said yes. Bill
asked, before Cherry Hill and Loren said yes. Bill then asked who did the berm that is there.
L. Kohnen said Hans Hagen, the developer of Cherry Hill put in that berm.
B. Loe asked who would have to do the additional berming.
L. Kohnen said the applicants are responsible for any additional berming that is required. He
said it seems better to enhance the berm that is there rather then building a new berm.
Sharon Johnson asked about parking.
L. Kohnen explained the proposed parking.
Mary Verbick said she agreed with enhancing the existing berm rather than building new.
Jerry Brost asked about the hardcover and if the requirements were met.
L. Kohnen said yes.
Todd Mohagen, Ace Properties architect, said that we show the berm right up to the parking
area. He said they designed the northern berm at a 3:1 slope right to the parking and brought up
to match the Cherry Hill berm. He said anything greater than 3:1 is too hard to maintain. He
said they proposed a 5' fence on top of the berm.
Kim Hoversten, 239 Cherry Hill Alcove, said he came to see what is going on and wondered
about the lighting and what would be seen from the 2nd story of the homes.
Larry Palm said they have not had time to meet with the neighbors, but do plan on having a
meeting with them (Cherry Hill). He said they were mainly electrical contractors so the lighting
will not be a problem.
L. Kohnen asked Ace to have a diagram of the sketch that is on the bottom of page Al made
larger and also a view from the north looking at the site.
K. Hoversten asked if the easement from Cherry Hill residents would be permanent and he was
told it would be a temporary construction easement.
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John Wood, attorney representing Joe Berthiaume, property owner to the south, asked a few
questions: 1 - Where is access - Loren pointed out the drive on 101, very near where the present
one is; 2 - are there plans to ask Mr. Berthiaume to give up any property for access in the back -
Loren said no - nothing would be asked of Mr. Berthiaume until he does something with his
property and 3 - are any variances being asked for and Loren said no.
M. Verbick asked about the trees in the back of the lot.
L. Palm said most of them will have to go. He said some in the NW corner are small enough that
they will try and re -plant those.
S. Johnson asked if they had drawing of the west elevation for the fenestration.
L. Palm and T. Mohagen passed out new drawings and went over them.
Dick Picard asked if we would need anything from the watershed since there were no wetlands
on the property.
L. Kohnen said we would not need anything, but they would probably ask for silt fence.
D. Picard asked about condition #8 - administrative conditional use permits.
L. Kohnen explained that they would be for any rental portions of the building.
D. Picard asked about soil being removed for the ponds, would it be used on site.
L. Palm said they hope to use it all on site, otherwise it will be trucked out.
Lenny Leuer had four questions: 1 - Overflow for NURP pond - which way will it flow on 101.
T. Mohagen said he thought to the south , but wasn't sure.
L. Palm said they have worked with Hennepin County, they are doing quite a bit of work there.
L. Leuer - Question #2 - This is one of our 1st improvements in the UC zoning district. He said
he is looking at the sketch from the applicant showing someone looking from the 2nd story in
Cherry Hill - did the applicants come up with it.
L. Palm said the ordinance is telling us what to do.
L. Leuer said the ordinance is not so clear about blocking the building as about screening the
parking. He wondered if we were setting a precedence in requiring 2nd story screening..
L. Kohnen said it is vague for a reason because it is not practical to do it in some cases.
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L. Leuer said his attitude is highly based on a resident looking out at the fence - he said he
questions the fence on top - are we requiring it.
L. Palm said that the city had given them direction on the height of the berm and a fence. He
said they knew there would be a berm and plantings.
K. Hoversten said he would prefer to look at plantings vs a fence.
M. Verbick said when she stood on the existing berm looking at Cherry Hill she noticed many
kids. She said we might want to consider the safety of a fence..
L. Leuer said he is uneasy about making a fence mandatory. He said lets pole the planning
commission to see if they feel the fence is necessary for screening.
The planning commission, applicant and resident present all did not feel a fence was necessary.
Jerry Brost said are we talking about if fencing is taken away, will we still screen the building
completely.
S. Johnson asked why we were trying to screen a 2nd story at all. She said our ordinance was
reasonable to protect parking, docks, etc., but said she is very uncomfortable with trying to
completely screen from 2nd stories.
L. Leuer's 3rd question: he asked if there had been an earth balance done.
T. Mohagen said the engineer felt it was a pretty well balanced site.
L. Leuer's 4th question: the city engineer questioned the berm on the west property line - it
appears to go into the road easement.
L. Kohnen pointed out on the overhead where Lenny was talking about.
The applicants said they will just remove the berm from that area of the easement.
The public hearing was closed.
MOVED BY RANDY BRINKMAN AND SECONDED BY LENNY LEUER TO
RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR ACE PROPERTIES AT
5022 COUNTY ROAD 101 FOR AN OFFICE BUILDING WITH THESE CONCERNS:
1. The berm is removed from the Clydesdale Court easement
2. The fence on the proposed northern berm is optional
3. All requirement of city engineer
4. Watershed review and any conditions they may have
5. A letter from Hennepin County planning and roads is required
6. The redesign of the northern berm
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7. West wall of building as per amended plan that was submitted
8. Construction easements from Cherry Hill residents boarding the applicants property.
9. All leased or rented spaces must receive an Administrative Conditional Use permit before
occupying the space.
10. The plantings on the northern berm are not expected to be 100% screening.
MOTION PASSED.
4. WARA REAL ESTATE - COUNTY ROAD 116 N OF HIGHWAY 55 - CONCEPT
PLAN REVIEW - PUBLIC HEARING
MOVED BY SHARON JOHNSON AND SECONDED BY RANDY BRINKMAN TO TABLE
THIS APPLICATION UNTIL THE NEXT MEETING AT THE REQUEST OF THE
APPLICANT.
MOTION PASSED.
Tom Supel said there is a lot for the planning commission to think about with a mixed type of
development. He said at the staff meeting there was talk about having residential on the northern
part of the property. He said if it moves in that direction, it raises the question if the City is
interested in bringing more affordable housing into the city. He said it might be wise to rezone it
partially residential and what kind of housing would be appropriate.
5. DARREL FARR DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION - 172 HAMEL ROAD - SITE
PLAN REVIEW FOR EXISTING BUILDING AND CONCEPT PLAN REVIEW
FOR MIXED USE DEVELOPMENT - PUBLIC HEARING
Loren Kohnen read his memo and put up an overhead of the site. He said lets deal with the site
plan review for the existing building.
The public hearing was opened.
Bill Loe asked if the site plan and concept plan reviews were separate items.
L. Kohnen said yes, so that they may start work on the existing building.
Darrel Farr introduced himself and stated the company philosophy on Uptown Hamel. He said
they have been in business since 1965 and have built in 6 states and 31 cities. He said they have
done office/warehouse, retail and commercial. He said they currently office in Plymouth. He
said the City's interest in redoing Hamel is appropriate, seeing communities develop like Hamel
used to be and can be again, a place to work, recreate and live. He said Hamel is a desirable
place to live for singles, empty nesters - this is an exciting opportunity. Mr. Farr said he was
raised in Golden Valley and is excited about the possibility of doing something in Hamel. He
said he is familiar with the Dorweilers (Hamel Bank). He said they have also acquired 3 more
parcels in Hamel and the sites have to be developed either simultaneously or in short order. He
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said this is a nice place to have some shops, bakery, florist, candy, antiques, etc. He said they
have designed this site for the empty nesters, another one for seniors and another site with retail.
He said this site they are talking about tonight would be retail on the first floor and condos on the
upper floors. He said we have to work with other land owners so the street scape is attractive.
He said they would incorporate a complete trail system - the park is a real asset to the Hamel
area. He said their company is currently redoing the city of Byron, just west of Rochester. Mr.
Farr introduced those with him: Lucinda Gardner, president of Farr Development (and
daughter). He said she oversees development and will do so for this project.; Bill Thibault - he
said they have known each other for 30+ years - he said they did a senior project in Maple Grove
with Bill; Lon - designer and architect and David Foy - Counselor Realty - he said they have
worked with Mr. Foy since 1976.
Dick Picard asked Loren about #1 - the lots being re -platted.
L. Kohnen said that there are multiple lots and this is the time to take care of it.
Lucinda Gardner said that they do not feel they should have to do that to remodel the interior of
the existing building. She said they know it will have to be done and will apply to do it, but does
not feel it should have to be done for this first part of their application.
Sharon Johnson asked if for remodeling the existing building there would not be anything needed
Lenny Leuer said you would if something was done on the outside.
L. Kohnen said the ramp will be on two lots and building code does not allow even an entrance
to be on 2 lots. The city council can work out if re -platting needs to be done.
Jerry Brost asked the applicants why they would not want to do it now.
L. Gardner said they would like to start the interior remodeling while the re -platting is going on.
D. Farr said that the outside work would not be started until the re -platting was done.
L. Leuer asked Loren if touching the interior needs a permit like the exterior would.
L. Kohnen said yes.
L. Leuer asked if there was an existing conditional use permit.
Sandie Larson said yes, for United Sprinkler.
L. Leuer asked if it was invalid.
L. Kohnen said yes, the new ordinance was done to be more flexible in the area.
L. Leuer asked if they could work if they stay in compliance with the conditional use permit.
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L. Kohnen said it would not be a problem.
L. Leuer said he has concerns about the plat. He asked if we don't usually ask for drainage and
utility easements.
L. Kohnen said yes, we will ask for that when the re -platting is done. He said the planning
commission can put that on as a condition when approving the site plan review.
L. Lener said that a sidewalk is being talked about - will there be an easement for that?
L. Kohnen said yes when the re -platting is done.
L. Leuer said knowing the history of Hamel and the differences in lot lines, is there going to be a
problem. He said lets ask a resident who is here that knows some of that history.
Clifford Fortin, 195 Hamel Road, said that all the lots were 40' lots when platted in the 1879. He
said he had judicial markers done when he had the property passed to him. He said the new
Fortin Hardware owners also did it.
L. Leuer said during his site visit he looked for markers and did not see any.
L. Kohnen said that survey stakes will be put in during the platting. Conditions should be: 1 -
sidewalk easement; 2 - drainage and utility easements; 3 - survey markers be found and
identified for proper lot lines.
S. Johnson said she is uncomfortable with the liability with approving anything without the plat.
Mary Verbick said she is confused. Loren said if the applicant had come in with an application
for re -plat, the city council can decide if they can go ahead with the interior remodeling -
S. Johnson said she is still uncomfortable doing anything without re -platting.
L. Kohnen said he recommends that Sandie send these minutes to Ron Batty so he can be ready
with his recommendation to the city council.
J. Brost said we have to be clear on `remodel' - inside or exterior, like entrance, etc. He said it
needs clarification on what we are recommending.
L. Leuer said we should make mention of the 3 items we need on the re -plat.
M. Verbick asked Loren if we do our part on the site plan review, could they bring forth the
interior remodeling question to the city council.
L. Kohnen said there should be some decision on the site plan review.
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MOVED BY JERRY BROST AND SECONDED BY MARY VERBICK TO RECOMMEND
APPROVAL OF THE SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR 172 HAMEL ROAD WITH 6
RECOMMENDATIONS:
1. Sidewalk easement be given on plat
2. Drainage and utility easements be given on plat
3. Survey markers be found and identified for proper lot lines
4. All lots re -platted into one before work begins on site
5. All lighting, new and existing must meet lighting ordinance
6. Old garage on north side of building be removed
7. Signage must meet city sign ordinance
8. Parking areas be paved and striped
9. All requirements of city engineer
10. Existing conditional use permit will be voided
MOTION PASSED.
Concept Plan Review:
Dick Picard read from the Uptown Hamel ordinance and what it entails for concept plan review
- that it is an informal review, etc.
Loren Kohnen read his memo to the planning commission.
Bill Thibault made a presentation to the planning commission. He said that on 5/15/01 the
Uptown Hamel ordinance was approved - he gave background on his work with the city and now
he provides help with the implementation of the ordinance for developers. He said they have
looked at the ordinance very closely and provided drawings of the concept. He said this concept
plan review is an optional step in the ordinance and they are interested in what the planning
commission thinks. He explained that there would be 25 lower level parking spaces with 43
total. He said that everything in Loren's list had been addressed. Uses: He said all are permitted
uses and they would come back for a site plan review. Height: He said the height is 48' to the
peak of the roof Open Space: Bill said in senior housing typically the parking and open space
is reduced and here we are talking about empty nesters. He said they were meeting about 91% of
the ordinance requirements. Parking: He said the parking ordinance states there should be
flexibility in Uptown Hamel. Hardcover: He said if housing is removed, 90% hardcover is
allowed - Bill said with mixed use he thought the commercial hardcover requirement should be
allowed with plaza requirements met and water brought to one of the low areas. Utilities: all
utilities will be underground. Street scape: Street furniture and street lights will be provided.
Bill said if the mix of uses is proper and you like the basic design and architecture, then some
flexibility should be allowed.
Mary Verbick asked how much flexibility for open space.
B. Thibault said if you remove use for townhouses and you reduce the open space by 50%.(?)
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M. Verbick asked if it was anticipated that the association will dictate that only empty nesters
can live here.
B. Thibault said single people could be considered. He said under law you can eliminate some
people. He also said that in condo units, parking spaces are bought with the unit.
L. Leuer asked about the exterior.
D. Farr showed and explained the material that they would use.
There was discussion on concrete siding - it has a 20 year color warranty.
Ron Johnson asked if there were any buildings in the area in this style.
D. Farr said there was a similar one in Maple Grove behind Target off of Dunkirk. He said it is
not the same style, but has this siding - there are 3 apartment buildings + townhouses.
Bill Loe asked the approximate price of the units and Mr. Farr said in the $300-$400,000 range.
Bill said that wasn't affordable.
D. Farr said no they are not. He said there would be 5 units per floor with 3 units on the 1st floor.
Some would be 2 bedroom and some 2 bedroom + den - very open - in keeping with what people
are looking for today.
B. Loe asked if the entrance to the underground parking was off of Sioux Drive and Mr. Farr said
yes.
S. Johnson said she thought it would be appropriate to go 2 steps back and get a feel if the
planning commission thinks this mixed use is in the right spot.
B. Loe said it seems like overkill of this lot - he said how about scaling down with 1 less level -
he said it seems like a large concept for this small piece of property, but it is a great concept.
L. Leuer asked Bill Thibault if he knew the height of St. Anne's steeple.
B. Thibault said he thought 50' - he will check - he said you don't typically count the basement
level as a story - we think of this as a 4 story building.
S. Johnson said this is a very visible spot when traveling west on Highway 55 - what do we want
as a visual coming into town.
M. Verbick said the steeple isn't quite as huge a footprint as a 4 story building - it will
monopolize the skyline.
Randy Brinkman asked if it was feasible to look at something smaller - this is the gateway to
Hamel, at the main gate. He said his feeling, taking Hamel as a whole, is this the place to do this
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- it is a big concept, massive. We have talked height, parking - if we do this what happens to the
next development.
B. Thibault said in a lot of cities you have a punctuation in the downtown area, a capital
building, etc. There is the steeple and it is better for greater heights going east from St. Anne's
and less flexible to the west. He said it would be a challenge to them to make the building 35'
high and keep the style. He said it is hard to decide how the height is measured according to
your ordinance.
L. Kohnen said the common way is to the top and our ordinance measures it'/2 way to the
highest peak.
S. Johnson asked who would look at the intersection of Highway 55 and Sioux Drive.
L. Kohnen said the city engineer did have some concerns about the intersection.
There was discussion of traffic, etc.
R. Brinkman asked about retail.
David Foy, said they have talked about many different retail shops; jewelry. coffee,
bakery/deli/coffee, florist, antique shop, real estate brokerage firm, photo, dry cleaners.
There was discussion of the architectural style, etc.
S. Johnson asked why the arts and craft style was chosen vs an older style.
D. Farr said the Prairie movement is popular today.
L. Leuer said the ordinance says that development should reflect the old town, small town scale.
There was further discussion of size and scope of the building.
D. Farr said it is a fallacy that Uptown Hamel can develop with 1 and 2 story buildings.
B. Loe said the tone of Uptown Hamel will be set and you will be scrutinized closely.
D. Farr said we will get whatever you want to see this more closely - plans of Hamel, video,
whatever.
M. Verbick asked if 3 stories could be considered.
D. Farr said with three stories there would be 13 units with an elevator and if we did retail on
some other site and did all condos here at this site, it might work. He said 18 units is pushing it.
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D. Picard said that Hamel needs a building like you are talking about, but this is putting
something in that doesn't fit. He said the City has spent a lot of time putting together what
Hamel should be and then to see this - - -
L. Kohnen said that we reviewed Gramercy and if we had used this same concept Gramercy
could have 400+ units. We are talking about 1/3 an acre here with condos and retail, etc. The
concern is parking and it also has been a policy of the City to ask for 10% of units to be
affordable.
MOVED BY LENNY LEUER AND SECONDED BY RANDY BRINKMAN TO
RECOMMEND TO THE COUNCIL THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION LIKES THE
IDEA OF A MIXED USE DEVELOPMENT WITH THE FOLLOWING CONCERNS:
1. Primary concern is the height of the structure - 4 stories is too tall
2. The minimum lot size per dwelling unit is up for discussion
3. Not enough parking spaces
4. 5' rear set -back is a concern.
MOTION PASSED.
6. MINUTES OF JUNE 11, 2002
There were some spelling corrections + Page 5, under the motion change Sharon to Ron.
MOVED BY RANDY BRINKMAN AND SECONDED BY JERRY BROST TO APPROVE
THE MINUTES AS CORRECTED.
MOTION PASSED.
Loren Kohnen said that he had asked someone from the Hennepin Conservation District to come
to the next planning commission meeting to talk about the different kinds of wetlands.
MOVED BY DICK PICARD AND SECONDED BY RANDY BRINKMAN TO ADJOURN.
MOTION PASSED.
Meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m.
Planning and Zoning Assistant Date
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