HomeMy Public PortalAboutVerbatim Record of Zoning Meeting of June 26, 2012.tif1
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6 VILLAGE OF KEY BISCAYNE
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8 ZONING MEETING
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111 13 560 CRANDON BOULEVARD
REAR OF FIRE RESCUE STATION
14 KEY BISCAYNE, FLORIDA 33149
TUESDAY, JUNE 26, 2012
15 7:00 p.m. - 11:25 p.m.
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22 Taken before Mary G. Stephenson, FPR, Notary
23 Public for the State of Florida
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TAYLOR REESE AND ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 APPEARANCES:
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COUNCILMEMBERS:
FRANKLIN CAPLAN, MAYOR
MICHAEL E. KELLY, VICE MAYOR
MICHAEL W. DAVEY
ENRIQUE GARCIA
ROBERT M. GUSMAN
MAYRA P. LINDSAY
JAMES TAINTOR
VILLAGE MANAGER:
JOHN C. GILBERT
EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO VILLAGE MANAGER:
JENNIFER DUQUE
VILLAGE ATTORNEY:
WEISS SEROTA HELFMAN
PASTORIZA COLE & BONISKE, P.A.
BY: STEPHEN J. HELFMAN, ESQ.
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1 Thereupon, the following proceedings were had:
2 MS. DUQUE: Good evening, ladies and
3 gentlemen. The mayor has called the meeting to
4 order.
5 Mayor Caplan.
6 MAYOR CAPLAN: Here.
7 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Davey.
8 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Here.
9 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Garcia.
10 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Here.
11 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Gusman.
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COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Here.
MS. DUQUE: Vice Mayor Kelly.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Here.
15 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Lindsay.
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Here.
17 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Taintor.
18 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Here.
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MS. DUQUE: Please rise for the pledge of
allegiance.
(Thereupon, the pledge of allegiance was
recited.)
MS. DUQUE: First item on the agenda,
Mr. Mayor, is brief comments by council.
MAYOR CAPLAN: I think what we will do --
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good evening, first of all, everyone.
What we will do assuming, expecting that
representatives of the Silver Sands will want to
be heard, if it's okay, we will move whatever you
want to say, your presentation before the first
reading.
MR. CUEVAS: You prefer to do that now or
8 before the ordinance?
9 MAYOR CAPLAN: Then. I think it will be
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more efficient and we will be able to manage the
meeting in a more organized way.
That is okay?
MR. CUEVAS: Yeah.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Is Mayor Bermudez from Doral
not here?
Okay.
Anything? Any comments?
Did you want a brief report on --
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes, I would like a
20 brief report on the status of the school, the MAST
21 Academy proposition.
22 MAYOR CAPLAN: So today we had our second
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meeting with representatives of the school
district.
Very briefly, the point of which was to
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1 view a second draft of the ILA. We did so. We
2 had substantial comments on the first draft that
3 resulted in a much more evolved product. Evolved
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in the sense of programming curriculum, some of
the operational details that were absent in the
first draft.
We are still a distance apart on financing
this. Most of our meeting today addressed that
9 important issue. We made a lot of progress on
10 some points. We agreed on a methodology to try to
11 build a bridge or to get to a resolution on some
12 other points.
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13 It's kind of a long story as to what they
14 are. I will just tell you my own view is that the
15 third draft, which we are expecting to see
16 tomorrow, is going to be probably pretty nearly
17 complete in most respects but for the financing,
18 and on the financing, we probably have solved four
19 out of five or six issues, I think. I have to do
20 a little bit of legal research. Counsel has to do
21 a little bit of research because we were told
22 today something that has constitutional import,
23 that, frankly, we just couldn't relate to or
24 understand. So we will do a little independent
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review so that we are better prepared to either
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refute or accommodate to whatever they think is an
issue constitutionally.
We have about a week to get this done. We
4 think we are on target. Although it's a
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complicated document, we have to get it right. So
we are spending all the time that is needed
between now and next Tuesday to do this.
8 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Mayor, will we need
9 a special meeting to address this?
10 MAYOR CAPLAN: As it stands right now,
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probably no, but if our timeline slips at all, the
answer will be certainly yes.
And I am aware of Councilmember Davey's
14 travel plans. We will need to accommodate to your
15 schedule, particularly on the financing ordinance,
16 so we have it. It's on the calendar.
17 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Thank you.
18 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Where is the
19 councilman going? Hawaii?
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: It's none of the
21 councilman's business.
22 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Vegas.
23 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Vegas? No. We are
24 going to Ireland.
5 25 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Mr. Mayor, I think
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1 you also had some discussions with the parents of
2 the MAST Academy; is that correct? How did that
3 go after?
4 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yeah. We had the so-called
5 505 occurred last Wednesday. It was 504 because
6 one of the MAST's constituents didn't come.
7 The long and the short of it, it was a long
8 meeting, much of it was spent by the MAST parents
9 talking about things that had nothing to do with
10 this. This was a lot about past grievances, and
11 we sat respectfully and listened. It was helpful
12 to hear some of the background dynamics that led
13 to some of this rancor, but it really had nothing
14 to do with us; most of it. When it came time to
15 actually move forward, we reached some consensus
16 points, specially with one important principle,
17 which has to do with the establishment of the
18 Cambridge Academy at the school, at the MAST, as
19 an alternative curriculum, alternative program.
20 And this is to be worked out, but the long and the
21 short of it is that those kids that are oriented
22 towards the MAST curriculum as it has existed all
23 these years, that will continue. For those kids
24 that opt for a, to be determined, broader, more
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liberal arts, whatever the content of it consists
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of, and there is a lot of flexibility in
determining what it will be, they will have that
option.
That latter option is something that is
recognized internationally or similar to the
international baccalaureate program for academic
7 credit. It also confers AP credit and it's a
8 separate certification upon graduation.
9 So that, to me, was something that we had
10 hoped to bring into the dialogue anyway. We were
11 reluctant to do so early on because there was a
12 lot of threshold to cross and anger to overcome,
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13 but that is now part of our program. That is in
14 the interlocal agreement.
15 The long and short of it, it was positive.
16 I think not every single MAST parent is feeling
17 better. Some aren't, but it was a good meeting.
18 Okay?
19 MS. DUQUE: Next item, under special
20 presentations, Mr. George Herrera, audit partner
21 with Marcum LLP will be presenting the 2011
22 comprehensive annual financial report.
23 Unfortunately, Mr. Michael Futterman will
24 not be presenting.
110 25 MR. HERRERA: Good evening, Honorable Mayor
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1 and members of the city council, village council,
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excuse me. My name is George Herrera. I am the
3 audit partner with Marcum as well as partner,
4 Mr. Fierman (phonetic). Here with me is Allen
5 Fierman. He was the manager as well.
6 We are here to provide a brief presentation
7 of the comprehensive annual financial report for
8 the year ended September 30, 2011. We refer to it
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as the CAFR to move along. I would like to go
ahead and get started.
The CAFR, first section will be
introductory section. If I can have you go to
that section, I just want to highlight Roman
numeral five even though the pages aren't marked
15 as such. It's the certificate of achievement and
16 excellence in financial reporting. That is
17 provided by the Government Finance Officer's
18 Association. This is a procedures award given to,
19 sort of a CAFR kind of thing, presented. The
20 village will submit their 2011 CAFR for this
21 award. We feel comfortable that they will receive
22 that award of 2011 as well.
23 Moving on the following pages, the
24 financial section, you get to the independent
III 25 auditing report, which is my report. I just want
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1 to highlight the first three paragraphs of our
2 report. The first paragraph states what we did.
3 We audited the financial statements of the village
4 for the year ended September 30, 2011. The second
5 paragraph basically states what standards,
6 generally accepted auditing standards and
7 governmental auditing standards as required. The
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third paragraph, the most important paragraph, is
our opinion paragraph where we are stating that
the financial statements are fairly presented in
all material respects conforming with generally
12 accepted accounting principles. In other words,
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this is what we call an unqualified or clean
opinion, which is what the village wants to hear.
Moving on the next few pages --
16 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I have one question
17 about something.
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In the second paragraph, there
is a line -- well, there is a line that audit
includes consideration of internal control of the
financial report as the basis, but not for the
purposes of expressing an opinion of the
effectiveness of the village's internal control
over financial reporting.
I know you mentioned this before, but can
you just explain again why you say, accordingly,
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we express no such opinion.
2 MR. HERRERA: Right. Because we consider
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in your control as it relates to the financial
reporting aspect, but we did not do an audit of
internal control where we would test the
effectiveness of those controls and issue a
7 separate opinion. So we look at internal controls
8 as part of the progress in auditing the actual
9 financial statements, but did not perform a
10 specific audit of internal controls.
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Would we need if we
12 wanted to look at that, would we need to actually
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have a specific audit done?
14 MR. HERRERA: Yes. It would be separate.
15 Yes, sir.
16 Moving on to the next section, which is the
17 management section and analysis section, briefly.
18 If you don't read anything else in this CAFR,
19 please read this section.
The section basically
20 highlights the activity for the year, information
21 from the prior year.
These are comparisons.
22 Discusses major variances. Very informative in
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terms of explaining what has occurred during the
year.
I will let him continue on.
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1 MR. FIERMAN: If you look at page 11, pages
2 11 through 20, this is the basic financial
3 statements. This section includes the government
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wide statement of assets as well as statement of
activities as well as the fund financial
statements for the governmental funds, the
enterprise funds, as well as the fiduciary fund.
Now, pages 21 through 56, this is the notes
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basically includes required disclosures that
provide additional information about the village
as well as the numbers that are included in those
basic financial statements.
Now going to the back to pages 81 through
15 85, this is the compliance section. This section
16 basically includes required reports that are
17 required under government auditing standards as
18 well as the auditor general of the State of
19 Florida. Within this section, the only thing we
20 would like to highlight is that we are pleased to
21 report that we did not identify any significant
22 deficiencies of material weakness in internal
23 control, nor do I testify to any instances of
24 non -noncompliance.
11 25 I also provided to you when you received
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1 the CAFR was the communications letter. This
2 letter is required under statement of auditing
3 standards 114. We call it SAS 114 letter for
4 short. This is basically required communications
5 that we are required to communicate to you based
6 on the auditing standards, and one thing I would
7 like to point out within here is on page 30 that
8 we did not encounter any difficulties in
9 performing our audit, nor did we have
10 disagreements with management.
11 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Can I ask you a question
12 about that?
111 13 MR. FIERMAN: Sure.
14 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I think it was three
15 years ago you did note that there was some
16 problems with --
17 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Yeah.
18 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I forget the phrase you
19 used; the deficiencies in internal control over
20 financial reporting, material weaknesses. And
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since that audit, we haven't heard those phrases
any more.
So given the awards and your review, would
you say that the problems which resulted in those
comments three years ago have been sufficiently
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corrected and we, as a body, can be confident that
our bookkeepers are doing a good job in that
sense?
4 MR. FIERMAN: Yeah. Based on the last -- I
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think it has been the last two or three, last two
years now, we didn't come up with any of those
issues that we came up with I think was back in
2008 that we came up with, and everything has been
9 much cleaner. So, yeah.
10 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Great.
11 MR. FIERMAN: Just as a conclusion, I want
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to thank John and Bea and Lily and the entire
village staff for, you know, their cooperation and
assistance throughout the entire process, and also
like to welcome Vivian to the village as well.
Thank you.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you.
MR. HERRERA: Thank you.
MS. DUQUE: The next item under the consent
20 agenda is a capital project authorizing resolution
21 of the village council of the Village of Key
22 Biscayne, authorizing the purchase of first
23 responder training and equipment, including
24 funding for overtime, course instructor and
111 25 supplies, approving the interlocal agreement for
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joint completion of an urban areas security
initiative program between the City of Miami and
the Village of Key Biscayne for the purpose of
carrying out FY2010 urban areas security
initiative program objectives.
6 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Move.
7 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Second.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: On consent with help if we
ever need it.
Jim.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I have one
12 question. I noticed in the resolution that it
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includes funding for overtime in regards to this
14 additional training. Is that overtime payment
15 applied to the overtime that is shown in the 2012/
16 2013 budget?
17 MR. GILBERT: I believe that the training
18 overtime will reflect that the way the two line
19 items are broken down, and then we will be
20 reimbursed sometime later on. This won't come
21 right away. It takes a lot for the bureaucracy to
22 work, but that pending fund will be reimbursed,
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the amount of money that we used for the overtime.
you.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: All right. Thank
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1 MAYOR CAPLAN: Okay. Second the motion.
2 On consent all in favor.
3 (All councilmembers responded aye.)
4 MAYOR CAPLAN: Opposed.
5 MS. DUQUE: Motion carries.
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Next item on the agenda is approval/
deferrals/additions/deletions/substitution/
withdrawals.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Anybody?
10 No?
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: What are you doing?
12 MS. DUQUE: Next item on the agenda is the
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approval of the minutes of the June 12th minutes.
14 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Move.
15 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Second.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: Anybody? Comments?
17 All in favor.
18 (All councilmembers except Councilmember
19 Taintor responded aye.)
20 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I didn't attend the
21 meeting.
22 MS. DUQUE: Motion carries.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: So we should pass the hat
and send you to Ireland.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Where are you going
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1 to go next year?
2 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Hey, keep going.
3 MS. DUQUE: The next item on the agenda is
4 the building, zoning and planning hearing number
5 SP -20. The applicants, Real Equity Assets and
6 Consolidators, LLC, located on 101 Sunrise Drive,
7 is requesting approval of a site plan for an 11
8 unit apartment building.
9 Mayor, if I may, any participants speaking
10 in the hearing if they can be sworn in.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes.
12 MS. DUQUE: Please stand and raise your
11 13 right hand.
14 Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole
15 truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
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(Witnesses in the audience responded yes.)
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Good evening, mayor and
18 council.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: Good evening, Jud.
20 MR. KURLANCHEEK: This is a public hearing
21 for site plan approval for an 11 unit condominium
22 apartment building at 101 Sunrise Drive.
23 Some of you may recall that this site was
24 before you a few years ago for approximately the
10 25 same amount of units.
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1 The site plan review criteria are the
2 criteria which staff and the council are required
3 to evaluate the project. I have evaluated that.
4 I have submitted to you a report. It is in the
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record, and we have determined that it meets all
of the review criteria.
However, we are recommending that there are
three conditions that go along with the approval
9 and part of the record. That is, the dumpster
10 shall be constructed of concrete block and stucco.
11 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Shouldn't that be
12 dumpster enclosure?
11 13 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Well, there is the
14 dumpster enclosure that is concrete block and
15 stucco, and then we go on to say the material for
16 gate would be metal.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: No. What I am saying,
18 resolution one, instead of the dumpster shall be
19 constructed. I don't think you are going to make
20 a dumpster out of concrete block and stucco.
21 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Right.
22 VICE MAYOR KELLY: So it should say
23 dumpster enclosure.
24 MR. KURLANCHEEK: To be more accurate, yes,
10 25 sir.
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1 And that the Building, Zoning and Planning
2 Director shall approve the design of the aluminum
3 picket fence which surrounds the property, the
4 sliding gates at the entrance to the garage and
5 the dumpster enclosure itself.
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Why is that?
7 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We have seen in some of
8 these improvements, not these well -designed,
9 constructed as they should be.
10 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Don't we have
11 standards in our zoning code?
12 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We do not have design
13 standards.
14 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: No, no, not design
15 standards. Don't we have standards for what has
16 to go around?
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Well, we have the Florida
18 Building Code, but it doesn't go to the design of
19 the metal gate, what it appears to look like,
20 those sorts of things.
21 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I guess this is where
22 I start getting into are we going to decide what
23 people put on their homes. You know, if people
24 complain about the Khouri building next door, are
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we going to start doing those sort of things?
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MR. KURLANCHEEK: Not on single family
homes, certainly not.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Or on commercial
property.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: On multiple family
6 buildings, we look at this all the way from the
7 Consultatio project, every other set of plans we
8 have, because the appearance of the property, just
9 to make sure that from the public side they use
10 the higher condensed materials.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Some of these decisions or
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recommendations are about compatibility of
materials.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: Exactly.
15 MAYOR CAPLAN: Not controversial plan
16 designs.
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: For example, this is CBS
18 modern building, and you can see to put a wood
19 fence would be completely out of touch with the
20 design.
21 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: But isn't that up to
22 the person making the design?
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MR. KURLANCHEEK: Not really. Under site
plan review, there is limited design review that
we do have. As the mayor pointed out, that is
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compatibility of building materials with the main
building itself and the accessory structures.
3 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Jud, why do they
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have in the -- the dumpster is basically in front
of the building when usually I think most
dumpsters are found in the back of the building
mainly because not only aesthetics, but also
odors, I guess.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: I think it had to do with
access how you get a truck underneath the building
or the side of the building if you put it way in
the back, and then, of course, if it's way in the
back, you are closer to the adjoining properties
at the rear of the structure.
These are commercially use serviced and
16 they are normally taken care of. I mean, that is
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one of the other reasons why we want to get
involved with this whole site.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Well, I notice it
also had a reflective pool. I am trying to
interpret how deep it was. I think it's like a
foot and a half.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: Yes.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is that pool closed
with a fence? I mean you talked about a fence.
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so
1 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I think there is a
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Florida building code requirement that if it's
30 inches or so or two and a half feet, one or the
other, then you have to have the surrounding
5 fence, self-locking, self -closing gate. But that
6 is something we will get detailed with the
7 building permit. That is not meant for a swimming
8 pool. It's just a decorative.
9 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I know, but I would
10 be concerned about a small child.
11 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Uh-huh.
12 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We would also. We would
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also.
14 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Jud, what is the
15 total built area in the building as it stands
16 today?
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I don't have the -- let
18 me see.
19 VICE MAYOR KELLY: This says 22,000 square
20 feet.
21 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: No, that is the new
22 building.
23 MR. KURLANCHEEK: You are asking for the
24 square footage of the building itself?
25 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That exists, yes.
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1 MR. KURLANCHEEK: All I have is that is a
2 22 unit building. I don't have the square
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footages because we don't have the plans for the
existing building.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I want to know what
the scale is compared to what is there currently.
I understand they are putting 11 units, but I
still want to know whether it's actually bigger.
9 MAYOR CAPLAN: Did the FAR go up or down?
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Exactly.
11 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I can't definitively tell
12 you that the FAR went down, but I know that our
III 13 FAR numbers are lower than the county's.
14 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is not what
15 I'm asking.
16 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I know. I don't have the
17 square footage for the building because we don't
18 have the plans for the building. They don't
19 exist.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Did they survey the
21 property ever?
22 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We have a survey which
23 tells you the property dimensions and the
24 footprint, but there is no -- almost all the
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buildings east of Crandon Boulevard and many of
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the -- and all the Mackles, the county did not
give us those plans when the village incorporated,
and they have several excuses for that, but we do
not have plans for any building east of Collins.
I can't tell you the square footage.
6 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: It was not because
7 they had a fire or a flood that destroyed?
8 MR. KURLANCHEEK: It has been alleged that
9 there has been a fire, flood, and whatever else.
10 I don't know if they have insurance for that.
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19
20
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22
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5 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: The new would be
compared to the old one.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: It can't be in excess
of what our code --
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: It's not in excess
of the code. I think you are just trying to
compare.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I am just trying to
compare.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Blocking the
building.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I mean, you probably
kind of guess.
What is the biggest unit that is in there?
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COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Eighteen hundred
square feet.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: No. I think under the
new construction --
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: That is the old
construction.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: It's mostly one
bedrooms.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: Councilman, the architect
has told me he has some of the information you are
looking for.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Okay. I'll ask
111 13 him.
14 MR. KURLANCHEEK: He will be giving a
15 presentation next.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: The one thing, it was built
17 under the county, and the county's FAR is higher
18 than ours.
19 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Right. So it is going to
20 be less floor area, but that is assuming --
21 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: And it was done a
22 long time ago. So it's not necessarily that they
23 maximized FAR when they built it. It wasn't
24 always, just like the Sonesta had a much smaller
IP 25
FAR than was allowable on the property.
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1 MR. KURLANCHEEK: The third and last
2 condition that we had is that there are 14 coconut
3 trees and two gumbo limbo trees. We are
4
5
6
recommending that those be preserved and reused on
the property.
That concludes the report. Thank you very
7 much.
8 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Jud, can you answer
9 a few other questions?
10 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Sure.
11
12
• 13
14
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is the building
sprinkled?
MR. KURLANCHEEK: It will be. No. I'm
sorry. It's apartments. It won't be. It will be
15 hardwired.
16 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: No, no. Automatic
17 fire sprinkler system in this building.
18 MR. KURLANCHEEK: What the Florida building
19 code requires -- we don't get into those kind of
20 details in this level, but if the Florida building
21 code requires it, we will require it.
22 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I mean, the
23
24
• 25
analysis says it meets all the fire related fire
safety codes.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: It will be. It will be.
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1 We are site plan review. We don't get mechanical
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sheets because there would be no point to get that
should you deny it.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: The chief is here. I
5 can have the fire marshall address the issue.
6 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Actually, can I ask
7
8
9
10
11
one question because I think it is going to be
related and he may have to answer that as well.
For electrical loads, my understanding is
the new construction is using a lot more
electrical load than prior construction. Is
12 there -- are they -- are the people doing the new
5 13
construction responsible for putting their own
14 transformers in? Is that being monitored? I
15 would think this is part of fire safety. I don't
16 know. Or is this a rethinking that FPL should
17 handle it and it's just being overlooked?
18 MR. KURLANCHEEK: They are responsible for
19 making sure they can service the needs of the
20 building. So whatever FPL is going to require to
21 do that, they are going to be required.
22 I don't know if the premise of your
23
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question is accurate, if they are going to use
more electricity. I don't know that, but these
are all detailed questions that come out during
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1 building permit, never at site plan. They have to
2 meet FPL's requirements. They have to meet WASD
3 requirements, and every other agency that reviews
4 this.
5
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7
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Will you look into
that, please?
MR. KURLANCHEEK: Sure.
8 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Jud, also, another
9 question for you. They only have 17 parking
10 spaces according to the document, and they are
11 going do 30 with the new building. These units
12 are obviously considerably larger because there
10 13
are less of them. They are 1800 square feet you
14 have for each and every one of them. If you were
15 to divide the number of units by the parking
16 spaces, it's less than three per unit. You know,
17 I would suspect that these bigger units, you may
18 have more occupants.
Is less than three parking
19 spaces per unit sufficient to handle the traffic
20 that this is going to derive.
21 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Our zoning code requires
22 one and a half spaces per unit.
23
24
1110 25
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I realize that.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That needs to be
readdressed.
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1 MR. KURLANCHEEK: It may not be that you
2 are going to have two adults and children
3 occupying this unit with cars, but generally it
4 balances out. I think this requirement of three
5 per unit is certainly one of the highest we have.
6 This should not create a problem. Most of these
7
8
9
10
11
units are not going to be occupied all year round.
Even if they were, it would be unlikely that we
would have all three parking spaces occupied at
the same time.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I actually want to
12 thank the architect who provided these documents
1) 13
because they were incredibly clear and very
14 helpful. So thank you very much. You put a lot
15 of effort into it. We very much appreciate that.
16 Jud, I have a question about Miami -Dade
17 County Public School application. It states that
18 in the approval or the nonimpact, it states that
19 there is no impact because they are downsizing
20 from approximately 20 units to 11 units, but isn't
21 the reality we have 11 large units? The chance is
22 there are going to be more children. How is that
23 captured?
24 MR. KURLANCHEEK: They look at a variety of
1111 25
factors as we do, looking at the average family
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size, which is about 2.4 something, I believe.
But, essentially, their standard is the same as
our standard, the urban density.
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: How are we
5 documenting that? I just found that having lived
6 in the Commodore Club and a couple of other condos
7 where it has changed so dramatically. I'm
8 concerned about how that is reported and whether
9 it's our responsibility to report more accurately
10 given the change in our demographics.
11 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We don't have anything
12
110 13
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16
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18
more accurate than the census track that we have
on the village.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Okay, and is that
how we use?
MR. KURLANCHEEK: That is how everybody
uses it, yes.
MAYOR CAPLAN: I think you are raising a
19 large point. We don't track it.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We don't.
21 MAYOR CAPLAN: I think we have come to
22
23
24
110 25
realize that population growth is something
different than unit count, and maybe we should
find a way to attend to this question you are
raising in a more systematic way.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Specially when you
2 are determining impact.
3 MAYOR CAPLAN: Right.
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I mean, this isn't
5 about limiting what can be built. This is
6 actually about determining the impact.
7 MR. KURLANCHEEK: It's also very difficult
8 because the units are sold and rented.
9 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Everything is
10 difficult, but we can do our best.
11 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I look at it a
12 little bit differently. This has currently -- it
• 13
didn't tell you how many one bedroom units it had.
14 It said it had both one and two. The new building
15 is going to have 11 three bedroom units. So there
16 is 33 bedrooms compared to perhaps 20 or 25. I
17 don't know how many two bedrooms they have now.
18 So the bedroom count is going up. I thought it
19 was interesting it says the current building
20 contains 22 units, but the plan says it has 20
21 units.
22 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yeah. There is a
23 discrepancy.
24 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I heard two phrases that
111 25
I disagree with. One is that these units won't be
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1 occupied full time. That is not the history of
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what is going on in the multifamily homes, and the
second being that there will be an average of 2.1
members in these units. That is a joke.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: I said the census bureau
6 has an average family size. I don't know how many
7 people are going to be living in the building.
8 VICE MAYOR KELLY: It doesn't apply. It
9
10
11
12
5 13
doesn't apply here, and neither one of those
things apply, and this is going to add more
people, and more children to the Village of Key
Biscayne making our situation worse.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: But you also have to
14 go to by what the census tells us. I don't think
15 we can guess. I have seen a lot of numbers fly
16 out there. I want to know what that number is.
17 If Dade County schools is telling me it's one
18 eleven, then that is what I am going to go by.
19 I think we need to find out the exact
20 instead of guessing. I think it's real important,
21 so we don't have these innuendos flying around.
22
23
24
5 25
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 2.82.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: There is another
number.
MAYOR CAPLAN: I don't know that they have
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1 a number. We had this conversation today. They
2 measure projected population increase on the basis
3 of a calculation per unit. That is it.
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is why the
5
schools are overcrowded by 130 and 140 percent. I
6 mean, we need to deal with it.
7 MAYOR CAPLAN: We need to deal with it, but
8 we can't deal with it by looking to the school
9 district to provide information that they don't
10 keep.
11 MR. KURLANCHEEK: There is nobody keeping
12 track of the number of people living in these
5 13
units. Perhaps maybe we can use the condominiums
14 to have that information, but we certainly don't
15 have that.
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: The condo
17 associations would have it.
18 MR. KURLANCHEEK: They probably would. I
19 can say because in the building where I reside in
20 there's 17 units, and at no time are there more
21 than eight or nine units occupied.
22 MAYOR CAPLAN: What we do know is if we
23 build it, they will come.
24 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Yes, and it's clear
5 25
that these condo units are no longer occupied
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families have figured out they can rent one of
these condominium units cheaper than it is to buy
a house on the Key and still have all the
5 advantages of living on the Key. You can't blame
6 them. That is reality that these condominium
7 units are being filled by not husband and wives
8 but husband and wives and children. That is what
9 I think is a concern of the village that we are
10 going to discuss later on tonight.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Are these intended to be
12 condos or are these intended for rental?
14
15
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Why don't we let them
come up and present.
MR. KURLANCHEEK: I only give you a report
16 based upon the site plan review criteria. With
17 all these points having concern, I can only go by
18 the criteria.
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: And I appreciate
20 that. I just think we need to address how we are
21 addressing.
22 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Thank you.
23
24
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MAYOR CAPLAN: Gentlemen. Welcome.
MR. PECCHIO: Good afternoon. My name is
Rafael Pecchio. I live at 251 Crandon, Unit 322.
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1 Good evening, Mayor Caplan, Vice Mayor
2 Kelly, councilmembers, staff members, fellow
3 residents. We are here to present --
4 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: You can put that
5 podium up. There is a button. Because you look
6
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quite uncomfortable there. There is a button
there on the side.
MR. PECCHIO: Thank you. We are here to
9 present our project that you already talked about,
10 and our architect, Gabriel Lopez, he's going to
11 have a presentation for you. So after that, maybe
12 we can talk a little bit more about it.
11 13
io
MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you.
14 MR. LOPEZ: My name is Gabriel Lopez at
15 7400 Southwest 141 Terrace.
16 This is the site that is covered. These
17 are the neighbors; the one in the east, and the
18 one in the north. We address those sides with
19 facade to be contextual with those kind of
20 openings in windows. This is east and west. This
21 is our site plan.
22 You were asking about --
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: Help is on the way.
24 MR. LOPEZ: You were asking about this
25 pool. We were planning to have glass right in
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1 there so nobody would fall and is only one foot
2 deep.
3 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is that a
4 cantilevered roof covering?
5 MR. LOPEZ: Yes. You will be able to see
6 it in one of the views.
7 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: It's pretty doggone
8 long. I was questioning just how that might do in
9 a hurricane with a flex.
10 MR. LOPEZ: Well, we do have to comply with
11 all the structural codes, and, I mean, we are
12 going to try. This is basically to give some
11 13
sense of entrance to the building. If somebody
14 walk here, it doesn't block anything, but just the
15 view like a welcome thing.
16 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is that an ADA
17 ramp?
18 MR. LOPEZ: Excuse me?
19 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is that an ADA ramp
20 going into the lobby?
21 MR. LOPEZ: Yes. This is an approach that
22 we want to do because, I mean, it gives a lot of
23 privacy to the users of the pool and also create
24 very good impact because we are not creating a
111 25
terrace of concrete. So we are putting some green
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1 around, and deck, and water. So we prevent the
2 sun to go into the units. So we save energy with
3 that, and we give a nice place for the people to
4 be and also for these guys to look at.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: Can you do that again?
6 One more time slowly.
7 MR. LOPEZ: It does it by itself.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: One more time.
9 There is about a four story difference.
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: And lengthwise a little bit
12 longer. Depthwise --
11 13
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Also.
14 MAYOR CAPLAN: -- a third wider.
15 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is why I would
16 like to see what the square footage was before and
17 after to know what we are actually getting, what
18 we are doing, because it all has an impact.
19 I would like more detailed analysis.
20 VICE MAYOR KELLY: What was there and what
21 went in?
22 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I think she just
23 wants to see a footprint. That will help.
24 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: To what exactly --
II 25
this always comes down to what in a site plan
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approval, what are our rights and what are our
obligations as a council.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Correct. That is
what I want to hear.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I have a few
6 questions to ask him before we get into that if I
7 could.
8 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I just want to be
9 clear with the attorney because I think we are
10 talking about things and I think Mayra brought up
11 some points that are valid, but I don't know if we
12 necessarily --
II 13 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, if it's
14 legal, but not something that is going to be done
15 or going to be added, then we shouldn't do it, and
16 that is my point.
17 MR. HELFMAN: In the site plan approval
18 process, you have a certain amount of discretion.
19 You can impose considerable restrictions on
20 the development. You can ask the developers to
21 adjust the development to -- for example, somebody
22 raised the issue of the dumpster. To the extent
23
24
II 25
that there is a reasonable concern about the
location of the dumpster, to the extent that there
can be a change to that, a change in the site plan
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to accommodate a different location, that is an
appropriate condition or change.
But, ultimately, to the extent that they
comply with the code and conform with the
reasonable conditions that you want to impose upon
them, the fact that they are building to a certain
7 FAR is not a basis to deny them. The fact that it
8 is a greater size than was previously there, to
9 the extent that the code allows this size, it's
10 not a basis to deny the site plan approval.
11 VICE MAYOR KELLY: The question I have is
12 our open space criteria is based on the number of
11/ 13 residents per acre.
14 MR. HELFMAN: Our public open space, yes.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Public open space. This
16 will clearly increase the number of residents from
17 22 bedrooms to 33 bedrooms.
18 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Not necessarily.
19 There is no -- that is where I think we get into
20 we make assumptions that I don't necessarily know
21 are in evidence.
22 I understand what you are saying, but I
23 don't think that is necessarily what follows. I
24 mean, I think we can do a study.
1110 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Let's do an
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1 analysis.
2 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: We should do an
3 analysis. I absolutely agree with that, but I
4
5
6
7
don't think it's fair to draw conclusions based on
any data until we actually review the data and
made a study.
MAYOR CAPLAN: I think you can't do the
8 analysis that you are talking about because it's a
9 backward look. It's not a forward look.
10 MR. HELFMAN: Our current concurrency
11 regulations, which is what you are talking about,
12 are based upon a unit analysis, not a population
I/ 13
analysis. The way we address an overcapacity or a
14 lack of capacity is based upon unit approval, not
15 population approvals. That is the mechanism that
16 we have in our code. So where you have a --
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: But we assess the
18 deficiency based on population, not by units.
19 MR. HELFMAN: We evaluate the deficiency
20 based upon population, but we manage the
21 deficiency based upon units. It may not make --
22 it may not make sense to do it that way, but that
23 is the methodology that has been used throughout
24 the state for growth management. That is how it
11 25
has been done.
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So you measure it based upon population and
how many people per acre if you will. You have
open space, for example, but when you go to
control it, you control it by how many units you
5 are approving. So what the regulations say is you
6 should not be approving any more units if you have
7 a lack of capacity, but a reduction in units is
8 not a prohibited approval.
9 This is considered a reduction in units
10 even though what may ultimately result is an
11 increase in population at the project. Even
12
14
15
though the unit count is going down, your
population may go up, which is what you are really
concerned about.
Now, I don't know if that is the case here.
16 It may be. It may be that your unit count goes
17 down, but because of the type of new units that
18 are going in, the population will increase or the
19 demographics that are going in will increase the
20 population even though there are half the number
21
22
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111 25
of units, let's say. Maybe the population will
double.
That is the dilemma, but you don't have any
regulations in place to control population right
now.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I am aware of that.
2 I am just trying to define the deficiencies.
3 MR. HELFMAN: Right. I know. I know.
4 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I'm trying to understand
5 why this comes before a vote.
6 MR. HELFMAN: Why is it before a vote?
7 Simply because anything but a single family --
8 your zoning code, you decided or some prior
9 council decided that anything with the exception
10 of single family development should come to this
11 council for their approval. You wanted the
12 ability to see it. You want to be able to have
13 some input in the process. Even though it may not
14 be input over how big it is or the FAR, you wanted
15 to have some limited input in the process of
16 approving a non -single family development.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I just haven't heard a
18 criteria that would justify a no vote.
19 MR. HELFMAN: It's really not a no vote
20 opportunity. It's a vote to --
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: So then why does it come
22 to a vote?
23 MR. HELFMAN: Because it's an opportunity
24 to participate and impose, if you will, limited
ID 25
conditions on that development that you feel would
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1 make this development more compatible, and it
2 gives you some input in the development process.
3
4
5
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: The Consultatio. We
worked with them.
MR. HELFMAN: It was. Consultation was
6 very similar, although larger scale.
7
8
9
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Bigger scale,
obviously.
MR. HELFMAN: There are really no
10 differences, their site plan approval.
11 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: They had a site
12 plan. They already had a site plan.
5 13
MR. HELFMAN: Well, the first people came
14 in for a site plan, and the second developer came
15 in for a modification to the site plan, but it's
16 no different. It's just a bigger project, but
17 it's site plan approval, and we are in the same
18 exercise as we were there, which was working with
19 the developer, and there we raised some
20 significant concerns.
The developer was willing
21 to work with us, move buildings around, change the
22 location of buildings, create view corridors. I
23 mean, that was an exercise working with the
24 developer where we came up with --
ID 25
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Well, but let's be
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1 clear. The first site plan that was approved was
2 frankly in my opinion God -awful. It was four huge
3
4
5
6
buildings along the property line, but the
council --
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: They worked with us.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Well, subsequently,
7 Consultatio worked with us, but the first project
8 that was approved in 2007, April of 2007 was
9 for -- or March of 2007, was four towers along
10 because that is what our zoning code allowed.
11 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: This all sounds to
12 me like a good neighbor policy. Like if we all
111
13 said, you know what, I hate the look of that
14 building, it doesn't matter. They can build it,
15 correct?
16 MR. HELFMAN: Yeah.
17 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: So what they are
18 doing today or tonight is they are showing us what
19 their design is going to be and trying to get
20 input from the community, being the council, to
21 say we love it, we love it but can you make it a
22 little shorter, maybe even make it a little less
23 narrow, more trees, whatever it may be, but that
24 is what I am getting the sense of. We really
• 25
can't tell them not to develop this, except from
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the three points that we talked about, downstairs
and some other small things that were here.
It sounds like a good neighbor policy.
They are showing us what is going to be built.
They are showing the community what is going to be
built.
7 MR. HELFMAN: To some extent, this is a
8 design review, if you will, process. It's a site
9
10
11
12
5 13
plan review process, but the right to build X
amount of units at certain square footage exists.
You have no design criteria in your code for this
area as opposed to single family where you have
some design criteria. You deal with porches and
14 different types of things that you have
15 incorporated over the years, but you really have
16 limited design criteria outside of the single
17 family area. So this really is site plan review.
18 It's the layout of the property, how it's oriented
19 in terms of its neighbors, dealing with noise
20 concerns, potentially lighting concerns,
21 landscaping concerns, parking area concerns, and
22 those kinds of things.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: I think the important part
24 of this is not what is happening tonight. What is
• 25
happening tonight is they want to build this, and
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this is the next step in the process to do so.
The process that includes prior to tonight
with Jud, there are lots of criteria, and
building, planning and zoning's job is to make
sure they comply with that.
6 MR. HELFMAN: They could not get here
7 unless they met the code. So they meet the
8 minimum requirements of the code. To the extent
9
10
11
12
5 13
that there are modifications to this project that
you would like to see that you feel are reasonable
and want to impose conditions on that, you can do
that.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Steve, so I didn't
14 get an answer to my question as to whether this
15 building is going to have fire sprinklers in it.
16 If it didn't, could that be one of the
17 conditions we would say?
Because we are requiring
18 sprinklers in all these other buildings.
19 MR. HELFMAN: No, no. Because that is not
20 within the scope of what your review is. That is
21 governed by the life safety codes and either they
22 are required by the life safety codes or they are
23 not.
24 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Can't we make the
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codes?
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1 MR. HELFMAN: No. Those aren't your codes.
2 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Do you have fire
3 sprinklers in the apartments?
4 MR. LOPEZ: Yes.
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COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: We are. That is it,
you know.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: But I was asking
8 Steve.
9 MR. HELFMAN: You don't regulate that.
10 Those are adopted on a statewide basis.
11 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I also think the
12 reason we have site plan review is to have an idea
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13 what the growth is. I mean, one of the concerns
14 we had when we incorporated was the density and
15 the overpopulation, and something that came out of
16 the Sonesta project was the zoning in progress.
17 So it's more than just an aesthetic neighborly
18 analysis of the project, but really what the
19 actual impact is, and just so that we know what is
20 going on.
21 MR. HELFMAN: It's a certain level of
22 control.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: That is true. It's kind of
24 telling. We haven't done this in awhile.
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COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes, and we should.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: There was a project
2 that came before us -- were you guys on the
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council? Enrique was. There was a lot of glass.
Remember that?
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes. I remember
6 seeing it, but I wasn't on the council.
7 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: It was interesting,
8 and this is nice, you know.
9 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I think it is very
10 nice. They are up to code. Can we say no?
11 MR. HELFMAN: No, but you can impose
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changes or conditions.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: If there are things
that are really glaring.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: It's reasonable.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Can I ask them?
17 On the parking is at ground level?
18 MR. LOPEZ: Yes.
19 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: And I gathered, and
20 I have a hard time seeing the fine print. I had
21 to use a magnifying glass to catch the elevations,
22 but I gather that the lobby comes up about three
23 to four feet to hit base flood, and the lobby is
24 what you define as the first floor.
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MR. LOPEZ: Yeah. We have to raise the
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1 building because the flood zone doesn't allow us
2 to build on the street level. So we have to raise
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the lobby, but we have some elevators that go down
in the back to the parking, so we don't have
problems with the access.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: So, basically, you
7 have the parking at ground level. Then you come
8 up to the first floor level to meet base flood,
9 and then the second, third, and fourth are all, of
10 course, above that.
11 MR. LOPEZ: Yes.
12 MAYOR CAPLAN: Okay. As you can see, we
III 13 are wary of change.
14 Is there anything else? Okay.
15 We will call this.
16 We are going to close the hearing and we
17 call this question.
18 MS. DUQUE: Roll call.
19 Councilmember Gusman.
20 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Yes.
21 MS. DUQUE: Vice Mayor Kelly.
22 VICE MAYOR KELLY: No.
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MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Lindsay.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Taintor.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Yes.
2 MS. DUQUE: Mayor Caplan.
3 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes.
4 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Davey.
5 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Yes.
6 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Garcia.
7 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Yes.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: Gentlemen, thank you.
9 MR. PECCHIO: Thank you very much.
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COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I too think it looks
very good.
MS. DUQUE: Next item, Mr. Mayor, under
II 13 special presentations will be presenting the, I
14 guess, the presentation regarding the Silver Sands
15 property.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes.
17 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Mr. Mayor, is this
18 a result of your discussion with the Silver Sands
19 representatives?
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: I don't know if this is, but
21 if you want me to report on --
22 MR. CUEVAS: Good evening. How are you?
23 Vice Mayor Kelly, how are you? How are you?
24 I am Carlos Cuevas, 301 Ocean Drive, Silver
111 25
Sands. Let me introduce myself because I saw some
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1 people actually don't know me well. Let me tell
2 that I have been an entrepreneur for the last
3 25 years. My passion for sustainability draws me
4 to be the founder and chairman of Recyclable
5 Planet. Recyclable Planet is a sustainable
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development company, member of the Business
Council of the United States Conference of Mayors.
The U.S. Conference of Mayors is the
official nonpartisan organization of cities with
10 population of 30,000 or more. There are over 1300
11 such cities in the country today. Each city
12 represented in the conference by its chief elected
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official, the mayor. The primary roles of the
14 U.S. Conference of Mayors are to provide mayors
15 with leadership and management tools and creative
16 forum in which mayors can share ideas and
17 information.
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The Conference of Mayors' platform
has helped me to interact with mayors of many of
these cities learning valuable information of the
main needs and concerns of the people that live in
these cities.
I will work, develop around helping cities,
corporations and real estate developers to
implement sustainable programs that will enable
them to become more ecoefficient and socially
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responsible.
Now, councilmembers, with all due respect,
we, the Silver Sands, we are really concerned for
4 our property rights. Back in 2006, we were in
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favor of the Stop PUD on Key Biscayne Petition.
We were against the atrocious development proposal
that was on the table back then for the Sonesta
8 site. We were against the PUD because it was the
9 right thing to do and it was unfair, an unfair
10 PUD.
11 After reading the petition initiated by
12 Vice Mayor Kelly this past week, I saw two lines
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that caught my attention. The density ordinance
14 does not prevent redevelopment, and the density
15 ordinance has no effect on single family homes.
16 Something did not make sense to me and I took some
17 time to make a little research at the building and
18 zoning department and came to the conclusion that
19 the proposal, the density proposed ordinance
20 simply doesn't work.
21 Why the proposed density ordinance does not
22 work? It does not work because it doesn't solve
23 any of the present or future density issues. It
24 is totally exclusionary. It is unbalanced. It is
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unfair. It is incomplete, and then it is
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discriminatory, and then most importantly, if the
legitimate action here is to attack density, then
it is extremely weak.
Over 500 single family home lots on the
west side of the island are available to be
6 potentially developed as four, five, six and even
7 seven bedroom homes. Sixty-five single family
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home building permits have been processed for new
home construction as we speak.
Those additional single family homes will
represent at least 8,850 new residents moving into
12 these houses. Five hundred new single family
homes will represent more than 12.3 percent of the
14 projected population of the island. Sixty-five
15 single family homes to be built in the next two,
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three years will represent 1.6 percent of the
projected population.
Development in the Silver Sands will
represent only 0.9 percent of projected population
according to the development proposal that we have
on the table tonight, today.
All of you have seen the transformations of
the Mackle houses.
So now, June 2012, after 99 percent of the
multifamily lots, land is being developed or is
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1 being developed as we speak, the only property
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2 available is our property, the Silver Sands, and
3 we have over 91.6 percent single family homes
4 developed as we speak also today, 2012.
5 So the additional number of units affected
6 by the proposed ordinance is just 38 units, which
7 is seven percent. We are supposed to have or we
8 are allowed 62 units, put thanks to the 90 plus
9 days that we had discussions, we built a project
10 that we actually -- was built around the
11 community, what the needs of the community.
12 So the number of potential new residents,
111 13 multifamily and single family homes affected by
14 the proposed ordinance is just seven percent. We
15 are talking about 140 potential new residents to
16 the Silver Sands site.
17 So the proposed density ordinance
18 effectiveness aims just to five percent of
19 potential new residents that the island will have
20 at some point in time.
21 In conclusion, this ordinance is selling
22 the idea of this council solving the density
23 problem, but actually it's not. There is a strong
24 need to change our mentality to be more
10 25 comprehensive and start to see the glass half full
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1 instead of half empty. Our small community needs
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unity, not social disruption.
So I am here tonight to ask councilmembers
to respectfully to please be fair and be rational.
It is obvious that we are many years late to
structure an ordinance that will control density
7 effectively. Ninety-nine percent of the
8 multifamily properties and more than 91.6 percent
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of the single family homes in the village are
already built or being built.
If the legitimate intention of the council
and the will of the community is to control
density, then the council should take the proper
time to work on a strong density proposal that
will include single family homes in the west side
of the island, existing property redevelopment and
multifamily.
The density ordinance proposal to be
19 discussed today does not solve any of the present
20 or future density issues, none.
The proposed
21 density ordinance affects only one property. The
22 proposed density ordinance, if passed, will
23 trigger a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the
24 village and hundreds of thousands of dollars to be
111 25 paid in legal fees over the next few years by the
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village and the Silver Sands.
The proposed density ordinance violates the
property rights of only one property, and my
personal comment is that I can't relate on how any
councilmember would sell the idea of fixing
density with an ordinance that does not solve
anything and only will bring misery and sadness to
one owner and her family.
That is what I have to say about the
density ordinance, but about the HR ordinance, I
have to say that on the meeting of February 28th
of this year, this council was scheduled to vote
on the reading of the HR ordinance, which was
intended to limit the use of our property to hotel
15 only. The ordinance was designed to impact
16 negatively our property and destroy the long term
17 investment that was made 20 years ago. At the end
18 of that night's discussion, this council in good
19 faith voted in favor of an extension of three
20 months that would allow, that would enable us to
21 find a common ground solution that would respect
22 our property rights and that also could find
23 balance with the concerns of the community.
24 The council appointed Mayor Caplan to have
111 25 the discussions with the Silver Sands. Mayor
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1 Caplan and I met many times without any
2 commitments. The discussions were mainly about
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the important issues that the village is facing
today; our traffic, school, park, and the need of
a hotel in the HR district.
The only effective way to solve land use
issues that could affect the property rights of
the single property owner is by creatively finding
solutions that will systematically dilute these
issues by the creation of an alliance and some
partnerships.
The best example to follow is the way our
mayor, councilmembers and staff work so hard for
months to reach an agreement with the school
15 district for expansion of MAST Academy. Now Key
16 Biscayne students will have the option to attend
17 one of the best high schools in the state thanks
18 to Mayor Caplan and the village officials' ability
19 to negotiate with the school district. We now can
20 say that a school solution is around the corner.
21 It wasn't easy, but we know by heart that this
22 solution is a win win situation for all parties.
23 Even Mast Academy committed when they realized in
24 the future that this was a good partnership.
II 25 This council failed to bring a hotel to the
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1 Sonesta site. They tried hard for it. The
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proposed HR ordinance to be discussed in second
reading tonight will, among other things,
completely terminate this initiative at the Silver
Sands.
6 The Silver Sands is an operating business
7 that is suffering the consequences of having a
8 major noisy construction next door. Our guests
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are turning away, cancelling their reservations
because of the next door ongoing construction.
The risk of being downswung pushes us to work on
the potential redevelopment plan.
Mayor Caplan started with the position of
zero residential units and wanting a hotel on the
site. Obviously, this is financially impossible
16 without a residential component. I think that was
17 Councilmember Gusman that made that comment on
18 February 28th. He said back then that different
19 experts and developers told him that if the
20 council wanted to induce a hotel in the HR
21 district, the HR ordinance was to in any case
22 destroy that possibility, and he is right.
23 We wanted to exercise our property right to
24 build 62 residential units that we are allowed
11 25 under current zoning code. No hotel, and using,
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of course, all the parameters of what the zoning
code allows us to do in terms of height
restriction and FAR.
After spending many weeks brainstorming,
analyzing, and discussing the current community
needs and concerns, we came to the conclusion that
we could induce a 40 room boutique hotel with a
8 low density component. We have in the table
9 today, a development proposal of 38 residential
10 units, and 40 rooms of award class boutique hotel,
11 not any hotel, but the world best. It will be a
blessing to have a hotel of this category in the
Key. We will have restaurant overlooking the
beach, and a world class spa.
15 I can probably say that we came to the
16 point where we are now by working together putting
17 our community first and respecting our property
18 rights. At the end of the day, we have been part
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of this community for many years, and we will
continue to be part of this beautiful community
for many more years to come.
We all agree about the importance of
keeping the magic essence of the site by creating
open spaces and the preservation of the gardens
and vegetation. More importantly, we understand
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1 how sentimentally attached is the owner of the
2 land, Mrs. Zoraida Lujan, has been to the
3 property. We also agree that this potential
4 development doesn't respond only to profits, but
5 to the commitment of delivering to the Village of
6 Key Biscayne the most exclusive and one of a kind
7 project that we could build, a project that all
8 Key Biscayne will be proud to have in their
9 community.
10 At this point, I will just want to
11 introduce Mr. Jonathan Breene. Jonathan is the
12 founder and CEO of the Setai South Beach. He also
13 represents the founder and CEO of Aman Resorts,
14 Mr. Adrian Zecha.
15 Aman Resorts is one of the potential
16 boutique hotel operators that we would like to
17 bring to our project, and I want Jonathan to
18 present briefly the essence of what Aman Resorts
19 represents worldwide.
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: If I could, Jen.
21 MS. DUQUE: Yes.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: The public hearing is open.
You are on.
Thank you so much.
MR. BREENE: Mayor, councilmembers, village
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1 members. My name is Jonathan Breene. I live on
2 444 West Rivo Alto Drive in the Venetian Islands,
3 and I was the founder and CEO of Setai Hotels and
4 Resorts. So I built the Setai here in Miami
5 Beach, which is now probably one of the --
6 probably the best hotels in the country. My
7 partner, Aman Development is Adrian Zecha, who is
8 the founder and CEO of Aman Resorts. I work with
9 Adrian. We are 50/50 partners on Setai. I work
10 with Adrian in the other Aman deals that he has in
11 this part of the world. I am very good friends
12 with Hugo Columbo. I have known Hugo for many
years, and recently he contacted me to see if we
14 would be interested in getting involved on this
15 site. I have had architects through the site. We
16 have been there many times, and it is definitely a
17 site that with the right density, 40 rooms and 40
18 apartments or 38 apartments fits into the Aman
19 model. We never do any more than 40 rooms, and we
20 never do any more than 40 villas or apartments.
21 Tonight I'll just give you a quick overview
22 of just some images, and just something about the
23 company. By being 40 rooms, you are able to
24 provide fantastic service. We have invited the
• 25
best hotel company in the world for the last ten
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1 to 12 years, very high end. In order to make a 40
2 room hotel work from operations point of view, you
3 have to charge very high rates. So that way you
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can do less density in terms of hotel rooms.
Today it's very difficult to make a five
star hotel stock up from a development point of
7 view unless you have some residential. So having
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the 38 condominiums that you can actually sell and
then some of those could possibly go back into a
rental program, can actually help the feasibility
of the project.
Aman Resorts was actually started in 1998
by Adrian. It was a site in -- this is the first
one. This is the Amanpuri, which is in Phuket,
15 Thailand. It was basically originally as his own
16 compound with some frames and then eventually they
17 decided to do 40 rooms and did 40 villas. Today,
18 it's the flagship of Aman, being 25 years on.
19 Villas here are selling for 24 million dollars.
20 Currently, there are 24 properties of Amans
21 around the world ranging from Bhutan, Cambodia,
22 China, France, Greece, India, Indonesia and going
23 through to Philippines, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Turks
24 and Caicos, and, obviously, United States.
110 25
is other developments just about to open in
There
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Greece, and also in Turkey just opened.
As I have said, there are basically only 40
rooms. So therefore the service of the hotels is
4 incredible. This is -- I picked ten hotels. I
5 didn't want to bore you with too many tonight, but
6 this is Amanpuri. So you can see that, again,
7 very low density. All very -- always trying to
8 build within the environment, not knocking down
9 trees and really trying to preserve. Up in Bali,
10 Amandari. Amankila, stepping down to the ocean.
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Again, whatever place they go into, they really
take people through basically architecture and try
to incorporate that in all of their developments.
14 This is Amanusa also in Bali. This is Amanjiwo.
15 It's probably one of the best Amans. It's the
16 middle of nowhere in Java, in Yogyakarta. It is
17 diagonally opposite Borobudur Buddhist temples.
18 It's a very spiritual sanctuary with monks that
19 come in and lecture.
Again, just preserving the
20 environment and building -- I mean, you would
21 think that building has been there for a hundred
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years. That is like ten years old.
There is two in the United States,
Amangani, which is in Jackson Hole, and then this
is just opened up, Amangiri, which is in Utah.
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Again, it took them ten years to get approvals in
here because that was the exact site that we
actually wanted, and, again, it was because of the
views of all the mountains.
Down in Turks & Caicos, Amanyara opened up
a couple of years ago, and that has been doing
extremely well with room rates in excess of $2,000
a night and villas selling for ten to 17 million
9 bucks.
10 In Morocco, Amanjena. So, again, you can
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sort of see the architecture of each different
location is incorporated into the hotels.
This was an old village in Montenegro that
they went through the whole project is an Aman,
and they have taken all the different village
buildings and built a hotel.
So, again, tonight, we haven't signed a
deal. We have been talking with the powers and
the family and depending on your vote and how
things go, we would be willing, Hugo and myself,
21 to get involved and try within a period of time to
22 sign up a deal, and, obviously, willing to listen
23 to the local village here of what they would like
24 in terms of design and start.
• 25
So thank you very much for your time.
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1 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you.
2 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Question. I just
3 thumbed through a few of the Aman resorts and it
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doesn't appear that all of them have homes as part
of them.
MR. BREENE: No. Some of the ones, like in
7 Yogyakarta that you couldn't sell a villa. So not
8 every Aman -- you only put the villas where you
9 can sell. So some of the original ones and the
10 beauty of, like, for example, different lodges in
11 Bhutan, no real estate is allowed in Bhutan.
12 Especially for foreigners. So many of the
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locations they go don't have real estate attached
to the hotel, but they are building in locations
where you can build in Asia and you can have the
16 Asian staff. The cost of building and the staff
17 levels are so much less and you can charge in U.S.
18 dollars. So the Asian hotels can make margins
19 with less real estate.
20 When you come over this side of the world,
21 all of the projects need real estate. Amanyara
22 has been a very successful hotel with 36 villas
23 and 40 units, and they need the villas to make the
24 extra economics work.
• 25
Because, obviously, first
of all, cost of labor in this part of the world
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1 and then the cost of building is much more
2 expensive.
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: So isn't part of the
4 determinative is your land cost?
5 MR. BREENE: Land, but land tends to be
6 sometimes only ten to 15 percent of the total
7 project. The rest of it is really construction,
8 the FF and A, and your metal work, and then once
9 you finish it -- I mean, generally, the highest,
10 the Setai was probably the most expensive building
11 built down here. So I needed revenues from my
12 condominiums and my room rates to justify it. And
13 that is why we have had to charge such high prices
14 because, again, from ongoing operations just to
15 justify that investment, we needed to charge very
16 high rates because, again, we have much more
17 higher labor cost in this part of the world than
18 you do in Asia and other areas.
19 So, for example, on Key Biscayne, we think
20 it's a spectacular site. We think to do only 40
21 little rooms and then 40 or 38 apartments, we
22 think that it's not a huge development. We would
23 like to sort of maintain the trees and really make
24 it a tranquil oasis, and as much as we can almost
5 25 put into a building, maybe put some cottages on
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the side, but the site itself is so beautiful that
you want to maintain and even enhance with larger
trees going down into a beach bar, which is
4 different. Like, again, Setai, I only had three
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acres and I have a 40 story tower. I think it's a
6 unique site that no one else, actually, I think in
7 Miami can replicate for an Aman.
8 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Are the apartments
9 intended to be rental units in your pool?
10 MR. BREENE: Depending on the owners. It's
11 up to them. For example, in Miami, at the Setai,
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we have 160 units of which 45 came back into a
rental program. Other people didn't want to rent
them or they wanted to fit them out themselves.
In this case, these will be bigger units,
probably sort of around 3500 to 4500 square foot.
Many of the villas down in, say, Amanyara are
18 about that size. They are always three or four
19 bedroom, and so I could see, I kind of get, but I
20 can see some people living there, and I can see
21 some others being more transient, and then putting
22 it back into renting it, and letting the hotel
23 look after it. One of the real problems with
24 someone when they come, if the fridge is broken,
• 25
this doesn't work, that doesn't work, and the
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beauty about the success at Setai has been when
the owners come and everyone is limited on time,
it's about being able to walk into an apartment
that is perfectly maintained, everything worked,
and then when you leave, they will look after
6 everything. For this echelon of clientele, is
7 very important.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: What was the experience at
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Setai on -- is there an FF and A in the package
that you would preselect if you wanted to be in
the pool? You would have to.
12 MR. BREENE: Correct.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: So that would be your way to
14 channel or to predict.
15 MR. BREENE: Yes. What we do then, we
16 basically say, unless you have the FF and A
17 program, you know, there we finish kitchens and
18 bathrooms. So we have to come in and do floors
19 and walls and, obviously, all the furniture. So
20 we actually cap it at 45. We didn't want any more
21 than 45 because we weren't quite sure back in
22 2001, 2002, you know, how many we could rent. We
23
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knew what we needed the rental numbers to make it
work, and we thought if we ended up with a
hundred, we might saturate the market at the high
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end. We actually could have done more back in
retrospect.
In this case, we will not allow a unit to
go into a hotel rental program unless we have it
5 completely fitted out in the Aman style. We also
6 have other designs by the Aman. We will come up
7 with, you know, a number of different types, and
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then that way, even if you are not going -- I
mean, the Aman design is so good, that even if you
are got going into a rental program, most people
will just say, listen, I'll buy the furniture
package so it's easy for me.
MAYOR CAPLAN: But your business model
14 would be to encourage people to join the rental
15 program.
16 MR. BREENE: It helps specially with only
17 40 rooms, but at Setai, I have got 88 and then I
18 have the 45 apartments, and I have the penthouse
19 that came back into the rental program that we
20 rent for 30,000 a night, and even then, we have to
21 work the economics to make sure we get a decent
22 net income.
23 With 40 rooms, we would need to try to get
24 as many of our apartments as guests so they are
• 25
coming in to help us on those economics. I think
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we can charge even a high rate by the room, you
know, a room hotel rate and residentials for a
good sales price than anyone staying in Miami
before.
MAYOR CAPLAN: You don't have occupancy
6 limits in your covenants? You are either in or
7 you are out of the rental pool. It's
8
discretionary on the part of the owner.
9 MR. BREENE: The way we do it is,
10
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basically, you sign up for three to five years.
You have a penalty if you want to get out.
We allow an owner, they normally select in
October. They have four dates. We have blockout
14 dates; Art Basel, Christmas, New Year's, Easter,
15 and they can select one of those out of the four.
16 So the owners are fine, and the rest of the time
17 we are able to have enough inventory during those
18 peak times to sell those.
19 VICE MAYOR KELLY: If I may, Miami Herald,
20 April 3, 2012, luxury hotel Setai axes operator.
21 When the Setai Resort and Residences opened in
22 late 2004, the property was hailed as a zen oasis
23 in the midst of Miami Beach. It commanded
24 discount rates of a thousand dollars and earned
• 25
raves for its sleek sophistication. But in the
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1 last few years, its owners say the hotel has
2 managed just an average of 50 percent occupancy at
3 a time when Miami -Dade occupancy averaged about
4 76 percent. Blaming the poor performance on the
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management company, the owners kicked out
Singapore based General Hotel Management and GHM
South Beach, LLC this past weekend and installed a
new operator. One of the complaints that the
owners had was that the quality of service was not
up to the beauty and the quality of the asset.
Trevi Luxury Hospitality Group based in Dallas is
now operating the hotel and condo at 2001 Collins.
Which one of those groups are you?
14 MR. BREENE: I am part of the ownership.
15 So the developer and the entity that we developed
16 is Setai Owners, LLC. My business partners were
17 Lehman Brothers. I was the managing member of the
18 LLC when we developed the property. I signed the
19 management contract with GHM, which is one of
20 Adrian's hotel management companies. Once Lehman
21 went bankrupt, every person that was a decent
22 person at Lehman basically left, and then it
23 became a bunch of people that were just all about
24 screwing this and screwing that.
II 25
So basically
what happened is that Lehman Brothers ignored the
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management contract and stormed the hotel at 2:30
in the morning.
They claimed that, for example, one of the
claims was a 50 percent occupancy, but in that
same article, they didn't mention what the room
6 rate was. In the hotel business we talk rent par.
7 You take a room rate and you take the occupancy
8 and it's really what you are left with. That is
9 the most important. So you might be at a
10 50 percent occupancy, but you might be going at
11 1200 or $1500 a night as opposed to a lot of other
12 hotels that might be at 72 percent occupancy, but
13 they are charging $150 a night. So their rent par
14 is much lower.
15 There is a huge litigation going on. The
16 contract --
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: You said you are an
18 owner?
19 MR. BREENE: I am the owner, but I don't
20 have any day-to-day control. So I had nothing to
21 do. It was Lehman Brothers or the bankruptcy
22 estate of Lehman Brothers that basically as a
23 member of the LLC, I was never informed on
24 basically that they were going to storm the hotel.
5 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: What percentage
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0
1 ownership --
2 MR. CUEVAS: Can I interrupt a second? Can
3 I? Because this is not about him or this is not
4 about Four Seasons or Hilton or whoever wants to
5 be. This is about an ordinance that is being
6 discussed today, which is the density ordinance
7 and the HR district ordinance. That is what we
8 are talking about. He has nothing to do with
9 anything that we are talking today. He is
10 bringing the presentation of Aman Resort, which is
11 a possible operator for the site. That is all.
12
5 13
14
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: So it's all
speculative.
MAYOR CAPLAN: No, it's not.
15 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is what it is.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: There is a news report that
17 you are explaining in context. I would like to
18 hear more about Aman.
19 MR. CUEVAS: Aman has nothing to do with
20 GHM Hotels. It is a completely different company
21 and it's a different hotel chain, and that is what
22 we are talking about.
23 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I totally agree with
24 what you just said, and I have been to Aman
110 25
Amanyara in Turks, and it was Nirvana to me. It
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1 was a heck of a road to get down there. I'll say
2 that. I got a little scared, but once we got
3 there it was unbelievable. I tried to talk our
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mayor, past mayor into going, but I guess the
rates were too high.
We didn't stay there either, by the way,
but someone said you have to go see it because it
is spectacular.
I am only saying that because when you came
up and I heard Amanyara or Aman Resorts, boy, I
doubled my enthusiasm because I know what you guys
12 have done. I have seen it. I have lived it, and
5 13
I breathed it. Now I'm even more excited to see
14 you guys pair up and do something because I agree
15 with you. I think it would be phenomenal.
16 So I do agree. I don't think we need to
17 badger this gentleman, and I think he's up here --
18 I'm excited that you are here. Thank you.
19 MR. BREENE: You are welcome. Thank you
20 very much.
21 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: It's nothing
22 against you.
We are trying to get information.
23 MR. BREENE: No, no, no. I have no problem
24 in answering any of the questions --
III 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Thank you.
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1 MR. BREENE: -- because it's public.
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COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We need to know
what we are doing.
MR. BREENE: And you need to know. You
need to understand --
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We need to know
what we are doing.
MR. BREENE: -- which is the parties.
9 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: And I certainly
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don't like when, you know -- thank you for
answering the questions, but I would like you to
answer.
MR. BREENE: It's my litigation going on,
14 and I think time will show that GHM, the
15 management company that was removed --
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: What was the
17 percentage interest that Lehman Brothers had in
18 the project?
19 MR. BREENE: Well --
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Because that seems
21 to be, you know --
22 MR. BREENE: The normal development deal is
23 that I put up a small amount of money. They put
24 up most of the equity, and after a certain return,
0 25
we were 50/50. Obviously, when the real estate
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1 market crashed, my basic economic interest, I'll
2 never get back to my 50 percent interest. So
3 Lehman controls, and can make all decisions, and
4 that is why under that scenario, we weren't
5 informed. They basically had -- because it's
6 their money. They are in control. They own the
7 hotel. So they can do with what they want with
8 it.
9 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Thank you.
10 MR. BREENE: You are welcome.
11 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Getting back to
12 this particular piece of property.
5 13
MR. BREENE: Yes.
14 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: In your opinion, in
15 order for it to work, it has to be basically a
16 50/50 split; 50 percent hotel, 40 units, and 40
17 condominium units.
18 MR. BREENE: Yes, and that fits exactly
19 into the Aman model in terms of when it is real
20 estate. Some will be less. Some -- everything is
21 depending on the site, but the perfect Aman model
22 is 40 hotel rooms, and 40 villas in this part of
23 the world.
24 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: And, obviously,
• 25
because you are going to be charging high hotel
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clientele. The condominiums are going to be very
expensive.
Who do you think is going to buy those
condominium units? I would assume probably
foreigners who are going to have those as a second
or third home, use them for short periods of time
of time, and perhaps put those units into the
rental pool, which would really mean that you
might end up with almost 80 hotel units.
I use the Ritz Carlton as an example. You
12 know, they have got 302 hotel units, now 188 condo
II 13 units, but theirs are classified as condominium
14 hotel units, which have their own definition,
15 which I was kind of surprised at. I understand
16 that the Ritz on their hotel units is running
17 about a 90 percent occupancy rate. On their
18 condominium unit, of which almost all of them, all
19 188, I think all but 11 are in the rental pool,
20 only one unit has a full time resident, and so
21 almost all those units are in the rental pool and
22 they are running about a 50 percent occupancy
23 rate. Evidently, the arrangement that the Ritz
24 has with their hotel and their condominium units,
II 25
hotel condominium, has worked very well to the
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to
1 benefit of its owners.
2 And my question is do you think the same
3 scenario would possibly work in regards to the
4 Silver Sands, i.e. you have 40 hotel units, but
5 you have 40 condo units that really become hotel
6 units.
7 MR. BREENE: They are bigger than the
8 typical, you know, for a hotel. Like, for
9 example, Setai, we have, most of our units that
10 were in the program were about 1400 to 1500 square
11 feet. So, you know, that is why we have to push
12 up the price per square foot, we have the good
13 rent.
14 Under the Aman model, I believe that the
15 sizes are perfect because they are very similar to
16 say Amanyara in Turks & Caicos where they are all
17 about anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 square foot
18 villas. So these units in here, I could see them
19 all being two, three, four bedroom, you know,
20 apartments that would basically come back in, and
21 Aman -- we call them Aman junkies. There's
22 300,000 people that unless you have been to three
23 or four Amans, you don't get classified. So he
24 has a database of 300,000 people. One third is
II 25
basically in the U.S., one third is in Europe, and
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1 then one third, give or take, is in Asia.
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COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Is the councilman
on your list?
MR. BREENE: I think so. I would have to
5 see.
6 So, first of all, there will be people that
7 say, you know what, because there is an Aman
8 there, I will go. No one would go down to Turks &
9 Caicos where the site sits because it sits on the
10 other end of the island unless it was an Aman. I
11
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15
mean, all these Amans, they are in the middle of,
like the one in Utah, it's in the middle of
nowhere, and they are getting close to $1500 at
about a 75 percent occupancy.
So I first of all think there will be a
16 number of Aman people.
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Remember there's only 40.
There will be people that already live on Key
Biscayne that already own a unit or a house, and
say, you know what, let me go, and I'll buy, and
sell the house or sell the unit, and then I think
there will be Latin America because on the island
you hear a lot of Latin buyers buying up, and a
lot of them know and go to many of the Amans, and
then the northeastern European.
Setai was mainly northeast when I first saw
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percent, and then it became more European, and now
it has come back and swung back to New York,
northeastern corridor.
I think there will be a mixture of them
all, and, again, I think we will try to make it
very exclusive being only 40, and we will try to
pick and say, hey, we can only try to make it a
bit more balanced as opposed to everyone from New
10 York, or anyone from, you know. There's not a lot
11 of units to sell. That is the beauty, and I think
12
II 13
14
the way the real estate market is today, it is
really sort of coming back.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: So you would not
15 expect families in essence to buy one of these
16 units and live in it on a year round basis.
17 MR. BREENE: Absolutely. I actually think
18 there will be some families that will actually buy
19 and live here year round. With all the services,
20 I mean, having a great restaurant, having a spa,
21 but I think the majority will be probably second
22 or third time homes, put them back into a program
23 and basically rent them when they are not here.
24 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I don't know if you
• 25
will be able to answer this question or somebody,
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1 the 38 and the 40 meets with our zoning code?
2 MR. CUEVAS: Yes, the density. Same
3
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5
meeting with the FAR, and the height description
as well.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I thought it was
6 said that he only had 62 units.
7 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Sixty-two residential
8 per acre or 30 hotel. So if he had a balance of
9 30 and 40, that was my question. I was trying to
10
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5 13
do the math in my head, and I think we are good,
but I just wanted to hear somebody say that
affirmatively.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: When the PDA was brought
14 forward, and the Defortuna project came forth, we
15 had developers here telling us the only way that
16 you could make money then was with a condo hotel.
17 You needed at least 300 rooms to do it. Then we
18 were told for a condo hotel it wouldn't work. So
19 now we can only do residential. If you want to
20 have a hotel, you have to have a big residential
21 building to justify the hotel rooms, that 40 hotel
22 rooms will never work,.and people said they talked
23
24
• 25
to Marriott, they talked to Ritz Carlton, and that
a boutique hotel would never work.
Suddenly, six months later, now boutique
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hotels work, but, again, only in the context of a
residential development, and yet in New York City
there are multiple boutique hotels on land that is
just as expensive as land here on Key Biscayne,
and they function, and they make a profit.
The thing that happens is every person
comes forth and tells you the theory that achieves
the goal that they want to achieve, but we never
9 hear from the alternate side. Where is the
10
11
12
boutique hotel that is functioning in New York
that does only hotel rooms and makes a profit on
land that is just as valuable as the Silver Sands
property? Where is that component?
14 MR. BREENE: I know of a 40 room hotel in
15 New York City that, basically, could make money.
16 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I wouldn't expect you to
17 tell me that. You are here to promote one agenda.
18 MR. BREENE: All I am just saying --
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: What about a
20 hundred room? I mean, it doesn't have to be a 40
21 room.
22 MR. BREENE: It's all a function of how
23 long have you owned, what is your basis. If you
24 are buying today, what is you construction cost.
• 25
All of those factors come in.
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1 Let me tell you when Aman was set up,
2 everyone said he was crazy. Forty rooms will
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never ever make money, and that was like within
the industry, and everyone still thinks he's
crazy, that 40 rooms can never make money.
The reason why it works is because he
started off in areas, in places around the world
where he was able to, 40 rooms, charge in their
local currency, build cheaply, but still an
amazing product, but charge huge U.S. dollars.
Most of the hotels, when he first opened Amanpuri
12 was $125. Adrian was charging five or 600. So
ID 13
14
15
16
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18
when you are paying everyone at the local
currency, but you are collecting in U.S., those
margins made Aman work.
When he then decided to expand out of Asia
and go to other parts of the world, his first -
places that he expanded to were other areas around
19 the world that had the same economics. When you
20 start coming to America, Caribbean and other
21 places, he has had to add real estate because a 40
22 room model, I know that -- I was the original
23 person involved with Amanyara, and then sold it to
24 another developer. I know what the economics are.
• 25
They are very tough to make work. A 40 room hotel
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1 as a stand alone on this island of Key Biscayne,
2 and I think you can talk to any person, would all
3 say the same. You would have to charge a lot of
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5
6
money because the starting levels for 40 rooms,
your margin is going to be very tight or you will
probably end up losing money.
7 MR. CUEVAS: Let me add something, Vice
8 Mayor Kelly. Don't forget that Zoraida Lujan, she
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14
has been here for over 20 years, and she is
committing great part of the profits in order to
have a better hotel in the island, and that is one
of the biggest reasons why she is open to that,
and risk that kind of profit in order to have a
hotel that works. It is different. It's not like
15 we are trying to get the investor out there to pay
16 for a hotel, but she is committing to her
17 community as well, the same way she was done it
18 for over 20 years. If that helps.
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I guess what my
20 issue is, there is a lot of hotels that's 125
21 rooms.
22 MR. BREENE: Yes.
23 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Is that feasible?
24 Is that profitable? That is --
• 25
MR. BREENE: Absolutely. Listen, they work
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1 because they build them. Okay? But, again, it's
2 hard just to throw a blanket over it and say 40
3 room hotel in New York City. It depends. If you
4 had opened a beautiful building for 20 years and
5 your base is next to nothing, and you don't need
6 to spend a lot of money on renovation, I can say
7 maybe it could work.
8 If you are buying today a site or you are
9 having to build and renovate extensively, only 40
10 rooms in New York City would be very difficult to
11 make work, but boutique hotels work. I agree.
12
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14
15
I'm just saying on this side if we were
just to look at this site on Key Biscayne, just
doing 40 rooms, I would find it very difficult and
you can find your own hotel consultants.
16 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That should be about
17 120; 118, I'm sorry.
18 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I was pretty close.
19 118.
20 VICE MAYOR KELLY: 118 unit hotel.
21 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is what I
22 thought.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: The model that I have seen
24 work in other cities which is the club quarters,
10 25
the tiny rooms, very nice one common area, great
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1 service in it, and no service otherwise.
2 VICE MAYOR KELLY: We really haven't done
3 research on a stand alone 125 units.
4 Not you. I am talking us, and we haven't
5 had a presentation.
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That is not true.
7 They came before the ZORC and said --
8 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Well, every presentation
9 we have had, obviously, was wrong because every
10 presentation we had never said a 40 unit alone --
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: With all due respect,
12 let me ask you this. Is every presentation going
II 13
to be wrong until they agree with your point of
14 view? That is what we are getting to here.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: No, but we are being
16 left out of information.
We are only being given
17 the information that suits the developer who is at
18 the podium.
19 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: We asked them to come
20 forward with a proposal. They have come forward
21 with a proposal, and now we are saying, wait a
22 minute, we don't want this, we want this.
23 VICE MAYOR KELLY: We are looking
24 critically at the proposal.
II 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Is this a good
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1 proposal?
2 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I think that is our job.
3 MAYOR CAPLAN: In fairness, what he said in
4 response to your question is that other things
5 being favorable, 120 room hotel could work.
6 MR. BREENE: The only problem, again, a
7
8
9
walkthrough return on equity, in order to do
projects today, let's talk about today and not
four or five years ago when money was really
10 flowing. To do projects today, you probably have
11 to put up at least 50 percent equity, sometimes in
12 some cases, we are doing some new developments
• 13
that are a hundred percent. So then you start
14 talking return on equity. If you do a hotel, full
15 hotel without any residential, you are sitting
16 there until you can sell the hotel and you have to
17 own it for five or six or ten years in
18 stabilization, basically. You have huge amounts
19 of capital, equity capital, which is very
20 expensive sitting there. The reason why a lot of
21 the projects we are doing today, in order to make
22 it work in today's financial markets, is that we
23 are trying to get as much real estate, that we can
24 sell the real estate, use that money to pay down
11 25
the actual hotel equity investment. So that is
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sort of in today's economy is the only way you can
get financing.
So, for example, having the 30 or 40
residential apartments, by selling those as soon
as we complete them, we are able to then pay down
6 the equity. Either pay it off or get it down to a
7 basis where then the hotel can stay up.
8 That is exactly what I did at the Setai. I
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II 13
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15
ended up spending -- everyone thought I was crazy.
I spent way too much on the hotel, but that was
the reason why I was having a premium in the
condominiums and used those proceeds to pay off as
much of the equity and debt on the hotel
investment.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: If I may, 120 room
16 hotel, and we are talking about density here, will
17 create a lot more traffic, a lot more density and
18 a lot more activity in any street than a 40 and
19 38, a 38 villa and 40 room high luxury hotel.
20 I mean, I think your project, what we
21 talked about here tonight goes with the property.
22 I know your track record or the company's track
23 record that you have. I think it's incredibly
24 good for the Key. It's what we are looking for,
110 25
and it's the economical response. That is the way
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we do, and I foresee it, as a realtor, that a lot
of those properties, like it happened in the Ritz,
3 will go into the rental pool. I don't see that,
4
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you know, many families paying right now ten,
seven to ten million dollars, and not get any
return, but I do see that as an investment, and
7 put it in the hotel pool like people have. So
8 what you have brought tonight, I don't know how
9 official it is, but it sounds very good.
10 MR. BREENE: Thank you.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: So the project economics
12 that you just described and the sunken capital,
II 13
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15
16
17
38 units is what they are talking about. That
correlates to property.
Is 38 units in your estimation what it
takes to make the project swing or is it half of
the total development or how do you get to 38?
18 MR. BREENE: Thirty-eight, it was already
19 proposed. When I got involved on the project, and
20 they said they are trying to do 40 hotel and 38, I
21 said, you know what, that is perfect spot for an
22 Aman.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: That just happened to work?
24 MR. BREENE: We got presented. I said, you
10 25
know what, it does fit into. Because we have
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1 other brands. If it was more hotel rooms, it's
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more than 40 rooms, we don't do it as an Aman. It
either becomes as Setai or some other brands,
chains and other things that we have, but 40 rooms
and under the 40 apartments, it was the perfect
6 split. So it didn't actually come from us. Then
7 I said this is a perfect Aman.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: As Carlos said, our starting
9 number is zero. Any increment over zero for a lot
10 of people is a problem. So there is a number at
11 which the project works and there is a number less
12 than that at which the project probably doesn't
10 13 work.
14 MR. BREENE: I feel those numbers, we can
15 make it work, and it's not going to be easy.
16 Because I am telling you this is 40 rooms. We
17 don't know how many villas are going to come into
18 the program. Forty rooms is going to be, we are
19 going to have to squeeze, and try to make money,
20 and provide that level of service. So the more we
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can have in real estate to pay off the investment,
and make sure that the operations of the hotel
work so this hotel can be profitable and stay open
and never have any problems for 20, 30, 40 years.
Again, I think for the community to have something
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like an Aman resort on the Key, I think it just
helps the overall community and other real estate
values, and, you know, again, all residents, the
restaurants are open so people can come at night,
5 and have breakfast, lunch or dinner. The spa also
6 is open to outside. Hotel guests and owners get
7 priority, but it's not like a gate that you can't
8 come in. So Amans in all the ones around the
9 world, again, the local people can go.
10 VICE MAYOR KELLY: How much are these rooms
11 going to go for per night?
MR. BREENE: At Setai, we are averaging for
the hotel rooms at about 800, and the apartments
we get about 2500. So I would say --
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: So the days of $130 a
16 night Silver Sands where you can keep your family
17 there if you ran out of room in your house, those
18 days are gone.
19 MR. BREENE: If they are happy to pay
20 $1,000 a night.
21 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Good joke. In
22 1972, the room went for 16 bucks.
23 MR. CUEVAS: We have discount cards for
24 residents.
5 25 MAYOR CAPLAN: We are kind of an informal,
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1 casual place. We are not stuck up as a community
2 generally. Is Aman right for us?
3 MR. BREENE: Yes. I say that. Again, if
4 you have been before, I mean, you meet Adrian
5 Zecha, he is the most down to earth, simple guy.
6 Whole Aman philosophy is less is more. There is
7 no one in that organization that is stuck up. In
8 fact, he is the anti -European hotel. Because he
9 used to tell me before he started Aman, the Regent
10 Hotels, which was the best hotel company in the
11 world. They sold it to Four Seasons. He hated
12 going to Europe because he found so many of the
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European hotels were so stuck up and you always
14 had to wear a tie and jacket. Aman is the anti
15 that. When you go to Amanpuri, the staff walk in
16 their bare feet.
17 This is the perfect company in terms of
18 completely anti, you know, tie, and stuffiness,
19 and it's the opposite. And that is why I think
20 people love Aman. Anyone that has been to an Aman
21 will testify to that.
22 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: One word,
23 phenomenal.
Phenomenal. I have never been so
24 excited to see this gentleman in front of us. It
• 25
is first class, yet so relaxed. It's
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1 unbelievable. It's just the opposite of --
2 MR. BREENE: Understated elegance.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: You know our community.
MR. BREENE: Yes.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Do you think the
6 prototypical Aman guest will, on the third night
7 will connect to our village?
8 MR. BREENE: Absolutely. There is
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definitely one thing that they don't want to
just -- they will have dinner there one night.
Aman guests, I mean, because most of these Aman
properties around the world, you will have to be
someone, almost an explorer. To get to some of
14 those things, you have to travel. They are never
15 in like just a simple. So this would be one
16 location that is easy for them to get to. So by
17 and large, these Aman people, they will come, they
18 will stay, but they then will come out to the
19 little restaurants and little boutiques in the
20 village. They work with the general managers and
21 then they take the guests for women's clothes and
22 this and that. So all of the different Amans have
23 their little shops. All the Aman junkies when
24 they go end up going to the little restaurants,
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and so very much so, and I think that, you know,
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1 it's different to a Setai guest. Setai guest
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likes going to the Beach and, you know, going to
our restaurant once, and then going out on the
Beach.
The Aman guest I think is a little bit more
oriented to Key Biscayne, more quiet, that village
feel, and so that is why I think that Aman is like
a better fit than a Setai, because it's very much
like off the beaten track, long way from South
Beach, and you have your own little quaint village
here that I think that is why it fits so well.
12 MAYOR CAPLAN: I appreciate that answer.
ID 13
When this idea was broached, I have not been to an
14 Aman. I am like the former mayor. I travel
15 cheap, but I have this question, whether Aman is a
16 level of stratosphere that is not the level that
17 we aspire to be at for our part.
18 MR. BREENE: I think you will find it
19 charges very high prices, but, again, even the
20 restaurants, like you go there. They are no
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different to any of the other restaurants that
they have down here in Miami, and are very open,
and it's not like they try to shut out the local
community and keep the restaurant just for
themselves and no one can go and enjoy it.
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so
1 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: You can get a beer
2 for eight bucks just like the Ritz.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: I don't like to spend eight
dollars for a beer.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: That is why you
don't go to the Ritz.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Any other?
8 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Yeah. There is one
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thing that really resolved me and I want to make
sure to the way it is.
You integrate this structure into that
beautiful garden, because I was there the other
day, and, I mean, when we talk about a 120 room
hotel or big condo, just seeing all the concrete
there going down and destroying that because that
is kind of our last oasis, I just want to make
sure from what I see on the brochures --
18 MR. BREENE: We already looked at that. We
19 had the designers, and one of the things was, you
20 know, enhancing the whole garden. I know it is
21 very important for the owners. Carlos had told us
22 that. The way it feels. So one of the ideas that
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we have been talking through with Carlos is having
a tower pushed away, like facing to the street,
and maybe doing some cabanas, like some little
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1 rooms down the side. We are going to need to
2 incorporate a garage, and I don't know the water
3 tables. We haven't gone into all of that. Even
4 if we have to move a lot of those trees, and we
5 believe that we can actually relocate, and put
6 them all on the side, and then if we have to build
7 a garage, and bring up the water tables, and then
8 design, the essence of the site, the trees and the
9 tranquility, and maybe doing some beautiful ponds,
10 and sort of the lanterns in those trees, and
11 relocating them. So I think when you come to see
12 the plans that we are sort of doing, we go forward
13 and we put it together, that is one of the things
14 that will be very important for all of us,
15 because, again, trees and specially some beautiful
16 older trees that are on the side, you know, you
17 can't buy them any more. Trying to relocate and
18 bring them to a site is impossible. So the beauty
19 about the site is it has got some fantastic trees
20 that from day one, you can walk in and you feel
21 like the project has been there for, you know, 15
22 years.
23 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Thank you.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: Anybody?
• 25
Thank you, sir.
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1 Ceci.
2 MS. SANCHEZ: Ceci Sanchez, 260 Cypress
3 Drive.
4 I love what I heard. I hope it becomes --
5 it seems to me that it could be a good thing for
6 our island, but I come because I'm concerned. I
7 think we need to reevaluate our island. I think
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now is the time to save paradise, and this means
that we need to check, and see what are we doing,
and it's density, and it's not to me the Silver
Sands or the 101 Sunrise Drive, but you need to
see, as we were talking about a little while ago,
about what other condos are doing or not doing,
and I don't know what we can do about it, but I
tried to call several buildings here on the island
today, and just to give you an idea, for example,
17 I called the Towers of Key Biscayne. The large
18 end corner two bedrooms, what we call the
19 Estorils, if you -- they allow you to remodel
20 those apartments and make them three bedrooms. So
21 just figure out. There is 20 stories. How many
22 of those, and there are I think three stacks in
23 each of the buildings, 20 stories of apartments.
24 If you add another bedroom, that means how many
• 25
more people will be living there. Because that is
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1 the trend. We are getting larger families.
2 Apartments are being used year round.
3 I am a realtor. Most of the owners because
4 of economic conditions if either they had them
5 shut and they only came once or twice a year, they
6 are allowing us to rent those units. So the
7 apartments are being rented year round or people
8 that never rented them, they are renting them year
9 round, but this is a problem of density for us.
10 It is more people, more children in school, more
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cars, et cetera, et cetera. So we need to look
into this.
I called Casa del Mar Condominium. You
14 have 27 stories. You have there 156 units. That
15 could be two bedroom units, not the three bedrooms
16 that are already three bedrooms, but those two
17 bedrooms, they allow them to be converted to three
18 bedrooms. So you are talking about if all those
19 apartments are converted into a three bedroom, and
20 you are going to get six people, you are adding
21 320 persons in just Casa del Mar.
22 In Key Colony, you know that they won their
23 lawsuit. We are talking about those 276
24 apartments that were two bedrooms. Now you are
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adding if everybody has three bedrooms there,
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there are 546 persons there. And that is the east
side of the island.
How about the west side of the island, the
single families?
I live in a two bedroom house. At some
6 point we were four. Now we are two. If one day I
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sell my house, how many persons are going to go
live there? Six? A minimum of six, maybe seven,
maybe eight.
I am asking the 101 Sunrise Drive, is there
a maid's room in that project? So is it going to
be six persons per apartment or is it going to be
a maid too? Is there some way that we can force
14 condominiums to enforce the two bedroom per
15 person? What are we doing? Is this the time that
16 maybe we could bring an independent person to come
17 here and evaluate the whole island? What is our
18 density? What is our capacity? Where is our
19 infrastructure? Could we have a moratorium until
20 that happens? Should we go to a referendum? What
21 are we going to do? Because this is a problem,
22 and it's not the Silver Sands. It's everywhere,
23 and, I mean, you hear people complaining, but we
24 need to do something, and I think the time is now,
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and property values are not going to go down. On
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the contrary, and now that we have the school,
more people coming.
So just think about it, please.
4 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, Ceci.
5 Just an administrative note as I sometimes
6 do. We reach our three minute rule very
7 regularly, but please try to keep your thoughts
8 contained within that time span if you can. Thank
9 you.
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Pat Woodson.
MS. WOODSON: Hello. Pat Woodson, 940
Mariner Drive.
So much of this is a lot of deja vu for me.
Well, I don't have to tell many people in this
room that, of course, we incorporated to have
16 control, zoning control, and to prevent density,
17 and additional development. So at the same time,
18 of course, reality is that every property on Key
19 Biscayne eventually will be redeveloped, and you
20 know that I am a long time advocate of
21 concurrency, and very keenly aware as I know we
22 all are that our infrastructure is stressed beyond
23 the max. Certainly, at peak hours, you can't park
24 to go grocery shopping. You can't get into the
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community center. Even if you do get in,
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sometimes you can't find a machine to work out on.
The school, obviously, close to a 140 percent
3 beyond capacity, well beyond capacity. And thank
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you for solutions coming down the pike, and at the
same time that will attract more families, and
maybe back to the same challenge in a number of
years.
8 So I have my view of this situation is that
9 I encourage you to take more time. I agree with
10 the gentleman representing the Silver Sands that
11 the density ordinance doesn't go far enough, and
12 doesn't really solve our problem. I think that it
5 13
can be improved and tweaked in a variety of ways
14 that might require some additional research. I
15 think the goal, whether we have a project that is
16 going to add units or maintain units or whatever
17 it is that we are dealing with, our goal should be
18 to get as close to zero net growth of units as
19 possible, and I don't know how we are going to
20 start counting bedrooms. I don't even want to go
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there at this point, but I think that in terms of
additional multifamily houses, that requirements
of a contribution of dollars to the village, which
enables us to perhaps the village is going to
start -- is going to need to use accumulated money
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1 for concurrency to start buying some of the aging
2 condominiums as they are available. The
3 Williamsburg. You know, if we had been able to do
4 that and convert that property right on Crandon to
5 green space so very badly needed. We are so
6 desperate for additional active green space. We
7 have tried as a council for many, many years to
8 purchase property and convert it to green space.
9 We have been short on money. I think we need to
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think about making sure that developers who come
to us for projects for multifamily houses make
very significant, meaningful contributions, far
beyond percentage. I think in retrospect you can
14 ask for certainly much, much more. We need it.
15 We need to maybe look at a density ordinance that
16 gives us more of a net zero unit growth through
17 acquisition of green space, which is, obviously,
18 so very difficult, and so very expensive. So I
19 urge you to take a look at that, and I think it's
20 a great idea for us to do our own independent
21 research when hotel consultants, hotel chains,
22 whatever, to say that, you know, are we stuck. We
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certainly have felt stuck, but are we really in a
situation where we have to accept formulas for
additional permanent residents in order to have
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1 hotel rooms? That may not in fact be true for
2 different companies, different organizations who
3 would be willing to work with us. So I urge you
4 to take the time to look at all of that before
5 making a decision. Thank you.
6 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thanks, Pat.
7 Michele Estevez.
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MS. ESTEVEZ: Michele Estevez, 798 Crandon
Boulevard.
I agree with a hundred percent. I am not
going to repeat many of her comments. I have been
12 coming to you to address this density for quite
5 13
some time, but mainly all that it has been
14 addressing is the population. I think our village
15 attorney was very clear this evening that we don't
16 have control over population, and it is in all the
17 comments and all the regulations that are in place
18 right now. What we are controlling is density,
19 and probably density is not our problem. Our
20 problem is population. Because this evening now I
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am very impressed with the project of the Silver
Sands, in which I was completely opposed before.
It's not about density.
So I urge that you postpone this evening
ordinance, and you look into what the ordinance
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1 can bring and change and look into the island why.
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Bedrooms in condominiums, bedrooms in homes. I
have been addressing all that prior to you. The
projects on the island that I think that will
come, they have been looking to population.
So once again, very short and precise,
please do not pass this ordinance this evening,
and look into the best interest into the
islandwide, and to look into the population.
Thank you.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, Michele.
Betty.
MS. CONROY: Good evening. Betty Sime
14 Conroy, 785 Crandon, Unit 1403.
15 Actually, you know, I am really sorry that
16 this presentation has to come before we really got
17 our ducks in order because, you know, the hardest
18 thing, and I know I was chairman when we were
19 preparing our master plan, it's really hard to
20 look ahead. It's really hard to know what is
21 going to happen. Who would have thought that the
22 Sonesta would be torn down? I don't know if you
23 all saw on the paper Camillus House was torn down.
24 So it's happening. It's happening, and it's going
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to keep happening, and, again, it isn't just the
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1 Silver Sands. L'Esplanade, the Harbor Plaza
2 Shopping Center, as we have seen tonight clearly,
3 101, redevelopment. We have got to control this.
4 As everyone has said, anyone that lives here, we
5 are maxed out. All our facilities are maxed out.
6 One major point that was made tonight that
7 I must say I did agree with, there certainly are
8 problems on the west side. No question we have to
9 address that, but it's way more complicated. So
10 tonight let's take that first step. Let's go
11 ahead. Let's pass the density ordinance. Let's
12 get moving on something to say, okay, enough is
• 13
14 We have been up here delaying, delaying, delaying
15 five years, meeting in these committees and
16 nothing is happening until look what is around us.
17 So I really urge to make this step because
18 it sends a message. We have an election coming up
19 in November. If anyone up here is hesitant, send
20 it to the voters. Let the voters make the
enough. We have got to draw the line in the sand.
21 decision.
If you have an election, these issues
22 are made clear. They are talked about. They are
23 researched, and that is a good way to find out
24 what your residents really want. Unfortunately,
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here we are June, July. We are missing a lot of
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1 people. There are a lot of snowbirds that would
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love to be here, would love to participate, and if
you have the referendum in November, they would be
here and they will be out voting because it is
such a big election.
So, again, I won't go over everything that
everyone else has said, but I do urge you to make
8 that step. Let's draw the line in the sand and
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say, look, no more, no more. We can't control
We are out of control already.
Thank you.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Thanks, Betty.
Mort.
MR. FRIED: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
15 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, Mort. Welcome.
16 MR. FRIED: Mortimer Fried, 291 Harbor
17 Court, Village of Key Biscayne.
18 I am really here to talk about something
19 you are going to take up in a little while. The
20 ordinance on density. Density, density, density.
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I heard it all the time I have been sitting there.
You came in and started with a request for a
variance changing apartments from 12 to 11 so they
can make bigger apartments, but if I understand
what happened, that variance was granted even
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1 though it was discussed and voted on that the
2 larger apartments were going to bring more
3 density. The ordinance covering the whole island
4 is beautiful for the east side of the island, east
5 of Crandon Boulevard because it will fix those
6 buildings which are there now. They can't go any
7 higher. They might be able to gut the interiors
8 and add more apartments, but that is what future
9 councils will have to look at, and the building
10 and zoning department will have to look at to see
11 if one of those 3,600 unit apartments in the large
12 condominium is suddenly broken up into three
13 200 unit apartments. Now even though there was
14 3600 unit up there, that is one family, God knows
15 how many people, but you are going to have that
16 many more people if they broke it up.
17 Now, density, I again say, applies
18 beautifully to the east side of the island. It
19 has no effect on the west side. I used to have a
20 house next to me that was no bigger than mine,
21 2500 square feet, four bedrooms, two baths, just
22 like mine, different layout, one family. I have
23 got a goddamn 8,000 square foot monster next to me
24 now. It's an unusual lot next to me. It goes
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back to 75 feet in the back, but it comes out to
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100 feet in the front, and where the old house
used to be in one little 3,000 square foot corner
of the property where they had a beautiful front
yard and a big wide side yard is now all covered
5 with concrete. It's a nice looking building, but
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I guarantee you it is not for one family, and that
is what we are running into constantly on the west
side of the island as long as you don't look at
building and zoning.
We have had two ZORCs appointed during
while this municipality has been in existence. In
the first one, and I quote my good friend
Mr. Llorente, former councilman, who said the sole
14 ZORC he was on did absolutely nothing. The second
15 ZORC appointed by the council had nothing but
16 builders and architects on it, and they drew code
17 plans that gave them the ability -- well, you see
18 them out there if you drive by, that 75 foot lot,
19 75 by a hundred, they are completely used up. The
20 back setbacks are no longer applicable. The front
21 setbacks are no longer applicable. What you have
22 to do, and where a lot of the density is coming
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from is not over there. It's over on this side,
the west side.
You have got to get in and change the codes
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1 and reduce the size of the buildings. You are
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still going to get multiple families, but you are
going to have less.
Thank you very much. I appreciate your
5 time.
6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Very nice.
7 MR. FRIED: I am going home.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: All right.
Anybody else?
Ed.
MR. SANCHEZ: Good evening. Ed Sanchez,
260 Cypress Drive.
What I have given you is a list of
properties that have sold since January 1st of
this year.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Single family?
17 MR. SANCHEZ: On the first column.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Single family?
19 MR. SANCHEZ: Excuse me?
20 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Single family?
21 MR. SANCHEZ: Single family. This is all
22 on the west side. PS means pending sales. CS is
23 closed. So you see 44 have sold, out of which 13
24 still have no close. Next column is the address,
25 then the living area, bedrooms, baths, the price
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1 that was listed, the price that was sold, and the
2 closing date. Out of this 44, less than ten are
3 Mackle. Ninety-nine percent probability those
4 Mackles are going to be torn down, and from 15 to
5 1800 square feet are going to be ending up with
6 about six, 7,000 square feet. From a family of
7 three or four, we will probably get six, seven or
8 eight people, plus a nanny. From two cars we are
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going to be getting four cars, plus a golf cart,
so forth and so on.
Now, don't count only the Mackles because
even the three million dollars waterfront
properties might be torn down to build a ten
million dollar property.
Basically, what I'm trying to tell you is
that when we talk about the Silver Sands or we
talk about 101 Sunrise, the numbers are not
significant compared to what Ceci told you what is
19 happening in the condominiums. I was manager of
20 Botanica. At that point in time, the occupancy
21 was two people per bedroom, and all the units were
22 recorded in the public records as a two bedroom
23 unit. They sued the association and they won.
24 Now there is no limit to the occupancy. You can
• 25
build three bedrooms that can be occupied by eight
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people. You cannot enforce any more, and this was
Botanica. Probably the same thing is going to
3 happen with the other condominiums, or it is
4 already happening. Like she said, Casa del Mar
5 probably will be getting about 200 more additional
6 residents. So what is that going to do with the
7 parking at Casa del Mar? What is it going to be
8 doing to the Winn -Dixie parking, to the St. Agnes,
9 to the school? So keep that in mind.
10 Thank you so much for your time.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, Ed.
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I am asked by one of my colleagues to ask
you all as you are speaking tonight's occasion or
at any time if you are a lobbyist registered as
such with the village to please identify yourself
as such so that we know what role you are speaking
with respect to.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Sorry?
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: We have our own registered
20 lobbyists. Lobbyists who register with the county
21 or otherwise, other municipalities, same rule
22 applies, not just to Key Biscayne, but generally.
23 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Do we have
24 registered lobbyists here? It should be with the
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county, and I know the City of Miami has a
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disclosure form that is a little broader than
registered lobbyist.
Steve, I think we talked about it. You may
want to address that.
5 MR. HELFMAN: We don't have our own lobby
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registration process, but the county's lobby
registration process is applicable within the
municipalities.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Okay. So point made and
understood I trust.
Mayor Vernon.
MR. VERNON: Mr. Mayor and council.
I am going to be very brief.
14 MR. HELFMAN: I apologize. I am told that
15 we do, in fact, we have our own lobby registration
16 process. So to the extent that somebody is a
17 registered lobbyist here, I think they are just
18 being asked to announce that they are.
19 MR. VERNON: And if they are not, they
20 don't have to announce.
21 MR. HELFMAN: Correct.
22 MR. VERNON: A couple of things. First, I
23 hear Pandora's box opening. I think it was last
24 meeting when you talked on this ordinance, nothing
• 25
in this ordinance pertained to single family west
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of Crandon and now I am hearing it does or it
should or something.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: It doesn't.
4 MR. VERNON: I understand it doesn't.
5 VICE MAYOR KELLY: It doesn't.
6 MR. VERNON: But there is a lot of
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discussion from the council that says it should.
Just a point I want to make.
To address former Councilmember Fried's
statement about the ZORC, Mr. Mayor, you had the
privilege to chair that ZORC committee and it was
the third ZORC, not the second, and we did, in
fact, or you did, in fact, reduce the mass of the
buildings on the sites on the west side of the
15 single family. We didn't increase them like -- I
16 don't know if Mr. Fried is still here. He's not.
17 But he stated, oh, we lost our setbacks, we lost
18 this. We didn't lose any of that. We actually
19 increased that back. We lowered the ability to
20 build that three story perceived house.
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It was
still only 35 feet at base flood, but I thought --
Mr. Mayor, you are not a real estate agent or an
architect, are you?
MAYOR CAPLAN: Uh-uh.
MR. VERNON: But you chaired that
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committee, correct?
MAYOR CAPLAN: Yeah.
MR. VERNON: Thank you.
Also there has only been one multifamily
project that I know of permitted since we
incorporated, and that is the new Oceana. So it's
not like we have been permitting multifamily
projects for 20 years and come to the end of the
road and now we are going to stop.
As far as the Aman goes, I was, you know,
unfortunately, I didn't get out to that end of the
island when we visited Turks & Caicos.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: You blew it.
14 MR. VERNON: But we were at a beautiful
15 home on the ocean, on the beach. We didn't want
16 to leave that, but I know of -- what I know of
17 them, it's an unbelievable resort, and I think an
18 opportunity if we truly want a hotel, it's an
19 opportunity to get one.
20 I think a good analogy on that article I
21 think, vice mayor, you read about the occupancy
22 rates, when the gentleman from Setai was speaking,
23 the analogy I always use to that is I relate it to
24 sports, and what is going to happen if you are a
• 25
Heat season ticket holder now. Your season
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tickets are going to go up tremendously, and Micky
Aronson is going to lose 3,000 season ticket
holders, but the amount of money he raises the
ticket price for those people who renew is going
to make up for those 3,000 he loses, and he will
just through attrition attract more season ticket
7 holders. Huizenga did. That was his model for
8 sports. He would raise ticket prices every year,
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lose, you know, ten, 15 percent of his season
ticket base, and he would make the same amount or
more money by raising tickets and slowly get those
season ticket holders back, and, unfortunately,
they are lousy product on the field now. So, you
know, they have other issues than that.
What is most important with this --
16 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I don't understand how
17 that applies here. I missed the analogy.
18 MR. VERNON: No, I said -- because I
19 thought you mentioned, you were making the analogy
20 that they were only 50 percent occupied.
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: The reason I brought
22 that up was because the owners of the Silver Sands
23 brought this expert up as someone who is going to
24 come in and manage this property and be a savior,
• 25
and I just happened to thumb through there, and
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1 suddenly unbeknownst to any of us, this property,
2 the Setai, had big problems. So I thought that is
3 something that the village should be aware of.
4 MR. VERNON: But I think what he was
5 referring to, and I don't want to speak for him,
6 but, you know, other hotels operate the same way,
7 is that their occupancy rate based on what they
8 charge may be greater than a hotel charging $150 a
9 night, but they are making more revenue than that
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hotel operating at 80 percent. That was all I was
saying.
And I think what is most important about
this ordinance is that you are -- and I think it's
important for everybody to understand when they
speak of density and construction and mass and
buildings and all this stuff is that you are
17 legislating against none of that. You are not
18 saying they cannot build 150 foot high building by
19 200 feet wide and call it a hotel. What you are
20 saying is they can't build a 150 foot building by
21 200 feet wide, or whatever the dimensions are, and
22 call it a condominium. That is the difference.
23 You are only legislating use. So for somebody
24 sitting on the south side of Key Colony that is
• 25
jumping for joy over this ordinance thinking
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nothing is going to get in their face, that very
thing, could very easily -- you are not
legislating against that, and I think it's
important for people to understand that because
there is a lot of people that don't understand
that and think this ordinance is going to prevent
7 anything from being done on that property. Just
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like there's people today that think nothing was
going to get built on Sonesta.
So those were my only comments. Whatever
you do, I just hope you guys do it. I elected all
12 of you and, you know, I sat up there for eight
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years not to send my decision making to the
14 public. I hope you guys make the decision and I
15 wish you the best of luck.
16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That is a good
17 comment.
18 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, Former Mayor.
19 Yes, ma'am.
20 MS. DAVITIAN: I am sorry I am so late.
21 Linda Davitian, 720 Myrtlewood Lane.
22 In fact, the village did permit other
23 multifamily dwellings on this side of the Key
24 incorporated.
• 25
Viamest was in the process with the
county and then we incorporated, and basically
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Ocean Club, and Grand Bay, and the Ritz Carlton
were all permitted under Key Biscayne well since
we have incorporated.
Secondly, for years, a number of us have
asked you -- I am grateful to the councilmembers
who are urging it, but we need to look at a
comprehensive view of what build -out realistically
8 is going to be on this island. It will improve
9 our future planning, our school planning, and all
10 of the things that you are working so hard to
11 orchestrate. It will give us a better view, worst
12 case scenario and best case scenario. If we don't
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look at it that way, we are doing this community a
disservice and we have been living with the
results of the disservice.
Thank you for your time. I know this is
hard work.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, ma'am.
19 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That is something, we
20 had it on the agenda. It was my item I think two
21 weeks ago and I took it off because we did get
22 late. But I think it is something. Again, it
23 goes with what Mayra is saying. I think we should
24 be looking at what is overall build -out. I think
• 25
it's something, you know -- Theo Holo was the one
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1 who came to me and said, what are we doing. We
2 have done with the 2020, but I think we could
3 update that or --
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Even if we followed
5 the 2020, I mean --
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: What do you mean we
7 follow the 2020? We are following the 2020, but
8 we need to look at, we need to update and really
9 understand what is build -out. What is the max --
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I think we need to
11 have numbers and really crunch it. Now just --
12 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That is what I just
13 said. We need to take a look at the build -out.
14 MAYOR CAPLAN: We will get to 2020.
15 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I would like to bring
16 that as a topic. We can discuss it if we get
17 through the rest.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: If I may ask, I am
19 confused where we are at this meeting.
20 We heard a presentation from the owners of
21 the Silver Sands.
22 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That was just a
23 special presentation.
24 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: We are hearing
ID 25
comments about the special presentation. These
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1 people, are they coming back to speak to us on the
2 ordinance? I just don't know where we are.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: We are not hearing comments
on the presentation.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I just wanted to
know where we are at.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: It's public comments.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Public comments.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: The ordinance is on
10 the floor. It hasn't been read.
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COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I know. That is
what I'm saying.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: We are just in public
comment section.
MAYOR CAPLAN: We are going to finish
16 public comments. Then we are going to discuss the
17 ordinance.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Thank you. I just
19 wanted to make sure we were on the same page.
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: I'll get to Mr. Goldmeier.
21 When Mayor Vernon was speaking about
22 Mr. Fried's presentation, one last thought
23 occurred to me. We didn't consider or approve a
24 variance this evening.
• 25
application.
We approved a site plan
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Mr. Goldmeier.
MR. GOLDMEIER: I pass.
MAYOR CAPLAN: That is what I call keeping
to the three minutes. Nicely done.
Anybody else?
MR. HELFMAN: Can I just say if you
7 intended to speak to the density ordinance, which
8 is on first reading tab five, item 9A, this is
9 your opportunity to do that. This is and was the
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public comment and public hearing on that item.
So if anybody has any further comment, the public
hearing on that particular item will be closed.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Going once.
14 Okay. We will close public comment on the
15 so-called density or more accurately the
16 anti -density ordinance.
17 Thank you all.
18 MS. DUQUE: Next item.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: No, no.
20 MS. DUQUE: I'm sorry.
21 MAYOR CAPLAN: We are not to the next item
22 yet.
23 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: She has to read the
24 ordinance in. We haven't even made a motion to
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the ordinance.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: No. I asked the
2 mayor to report on his discussions with the Silver
3 Sands people. We heard from Silver Sands. I want
4 to hear from the mayor.
5 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Okay. Sorry.
6 MAYOR CAPLAN: So February 22nd we had a
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hearing on the second reading on the HR, and at
that hearing we deferred action and we established
a timeout during which the Silver Sands wouldn't
take any action to procure any development
approvals, and during which we would meet in good
faith with best efforts to try to find some
accommodation of points that at that time were in
absolutely perfect and irreconcilable collision
because our initial proposition first and foremost
was that the right number of additional dwelling
units on Key Biscayne ought to be zero, and what
they wanted to do was to build the maximum
residential project that would be allowable under
HR, which is 16 units per acre resulting in
approximately 62 units of residential, a complete
conflict.
And second order of business for us was the
24 desire to facilitate, urge, guide, cajole, get in
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some way or another a hotel, which presupposed, I
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suppose, that Silver Sands was going to no longer
be Silver Sands.
A third possibility would be status quo,
but we were at second reading and taking action
that would have prevented their desire to build a
residential project.
That is by way what got us into this sort
of period of time that is just ended tonight. We
9 have met, as Carlos Cuevas said, a number of times
10 and reported last time about three council
11 meetings ago at that time on the 6th. The
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meetings have accelerated and increased in pace
since then because for most of the time that we
have been meeting, as I mentioned previously, my
part of the dialogue was no, no, no, and we
weren't really getting anywhere, and I reported
back previously that I was pessimistic about our
18 prospects. What changed was a decision that
19 possibly could allow for a hotel in addition to
20 some residential units as an economic driver to
21 support the development and the operation of the
22 hotel.
23 All of that work in process really
24 accelerated as the time was getting short before
25 this meeting, and you heard before you tonight the
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fruits of a fair amount of effort in, I would say
the past two and a half weeks or so on the part of
the Silver Sands team to come up with the Aman
proposal that you presented this evening.
What this boils down to being right now is
they wish to do a mix used project consisting of
38 units, I would like to think or possibly fewer,
38 units of condominium, 40 units of suites,
9 whatever the design is, of hotel. Not certainly,
10 but a lot of energy is going into that hotel being
11 an Aman. A restaurant, a spa as you related. The
12 overall project, as I have come to understand it
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13 from speaking to the project architect several
14 days ago and from the development team, would be
15 somewhat under height, somewhat under FAR, and
16 somewhat under density, allowable density of the
17 existing HR. Basically, that is it.
18 They are before us tonight because they are
19 ready to become, ready to tell us what they have
20 come up with, and ready for us to consider it, and
21 because of the ordinance coming up, of both
22 ordinances coming up tonight, both the HR and the
23 density ordinance. That is basically it.
24 As Carlos said, this entire process has
25 been without commitment, without anybody thinking
o
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1 that anything that is said, the tokens, a
2 decision. I have done my best to communicate
3 every step of the way that I have no opinion on
4 this. I am just listening, and that is what has
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come out of this.
Okay?
If you have any questions, I will answer
8 it, but is basically where we are at.
9 Okay?
10 Okay. Let's move on this ordinance.
11 MS. DUQUE: Next item for first reading is
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an ordinance of the Village of Key Biscayne,
Florida, amending sections 30-33(3) and 30-73(G)
of the village code of ordinances, amending the
site plan review procedures to prohibit the
approval of additional density in excess of
density previously approved pursuant to a valid
development order; providing for submittal of
proposed amendments to the village code of
ordinances to the qualified electors of the
village; providing for requisite ballot language;
providing for form of ballot and procedure for
balloting; providing for notice of election;
providing for effectiveness; providing for
severability; providing for conflicts; and
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1 providing for an effective date.
2 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Move.
3 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Second.
4 MAYOR CAPLAN: Discussion.
5 Who wants to start?
6 That was a mouthful, Jenny.
7 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: She did well.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: Jenny is filling in for
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Conchita who is not feeling well tonight.
Thank you.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Hope you are doing
well, Conchita.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Who wants to start?
Anybody?
VICE MAYOR KELLY: I usually start. I
16 would rather somebody else did.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: Want me to pick someone?
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I'll start. What
19 the heck.
20 You know, all of us here campaigned. Well,
21 except you, Mr. Mayor. You were elected without
22 campaigning.
23 This is a representative government. That
24 is what the founding fathers of the Key did. I
• 25
mean, they elected a council that was an odd
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1 number, seven people, a mayor. We all have the
2 power of vote. Everybody has the same right when
3 they sit on this dais. We sit down here every
4 other Thursday. All of us get a big thick book
5 that we have to read, prepare. I, myself, besides
6 reading it, meet with the manager just to try to
7 prepare myself for this meeting. There is a lot
8 of work that we do, a lot of preparation that we
9 do.
10 Taking an issue as complex as a zoning
11 issue, and putting it out to the voters, I don't
12 think is fair, and I don't think I am calling the
5 13
voters not intelligent because that would be a
14 complete lie. But even my wife, who is a very
15 well prepared attorney, you know, she doesn't read
16 or prepares herself the way we have to to deal
17 with these issues.
18 As a representative government, I am
19 really, really not against, because that is not
20 the word, but really preoccupied about having a
21 government by referendums.
Referendums I think
22 should come from the people, not from the
23 government. They can get signatures. They can
24 come in to us. They can impeach us or remove us
• 25
or whatever. That can be done, but us not taking
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our responsibility after we have studied this, and
I know all of you, and I know all of you are very,
very diligent when you prepare yourself to come
here, and putting this to the voters, I don't
think is fair to them.
So as far as I am concerned, it's a no for
me. I think going to referendum is not the way we
8 were structured or what we were elected to do.
9 Having said that, the next one.
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Amen.
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I think there are two
12 parts to this. I think there is the referendum
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question, and then there is the underlying subject
matter of this ordinance.
I would propose a motion to amend the
ordinance to withdraw the referendum portion at
this time.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I will second that.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I think if we are
20 going to vote on this, I agree with Enrique. I
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think that Dr. Kelly put together a petition, and
I received a number from people, but, frankly,
this goes back to the original, the petition for
the zoning ordinance as we call it, which requires
that any change in density or intensity, any
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change in definitions, and I am paraphrasing, I am
not quoting it specifically, but Section 415 of
our charter, you know, basically was put out to
the voters, and I think what happened is exactly
what happened with this petition in that there is
a lot of fear that gets built up in these things.
People are made to be afraid, and I don't think
that is the right way for things to be done. I
think we can debate these things and sometimes it
gets animated, but at least it's a debate between
informed people, and people aren't reacting out of
fear when they vote on something.
You know, the language, I took issue with
the language here, quite frankly, Mike, that the
Oceana development will add 616 new residents, 308
16 of which will be additional children. That is a
17 supposition. It could happen. That is a
18 possibility, but it's not fact, and when it was
19 put out there as fact, I found it to be
20 intellectually dishonest. Frankly, I didn't think
21 it was fair to put that out there, and say this
22 will happen. You could have said, you know, in
23 your editorial what you said is there is a
24 possibility. Again, I am paraphrasing. I think
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1 possibility that we could have 616 new residents,
2 and that was fair. I don't think that is unfair,
3 but here when you say there will be, I think that
4 is not being fair. Just as with the ordinance in
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2007, people said the council is trying to add
density.
I think this vote has to be up here. We
8 have to be the ones to do it. Whether you agree
9 with it or not, I think it should be up here. It
10 should be an informed televised debate that we
11 have and we will make the decisions. We were
12 elected. As the former mayor said, we were all
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elected up here to make these decisions. We all
14 work hard to understand what the issues are, and I
15 think we should be the ones to make these calls.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: I'll add my own reason for
17 disfavoring the referendum to solve this problem.
18 The problem is not as expressed in the petition.
19 It's too simplistic, I think, to say are we
20 suffering from the burdens and impact of
21 development. Of course, we are. It is too
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simplistic to ask people whether they disfavor any
further growth. Of course they do.
The problem is what do we do about it, and
to invite a result that would forestall the kind
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of flexibility that thus far has enabled us to
make some progress, as imperfect as it may be on
difficult longstanding issues, doesn't seem to be
4 to me to be wise. We want flexibility, and we
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want to be able to have a problem solved as best
we can, and if we slam the door because of a
visceral reaction that is utterly well-founded, we
8 are not serving ourselves very well. That is why
9 I am giving you back the --
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Also, I think it's
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a way really gauging from our constituents that
they want some action, that they would rather be
like in Carmel, California than a Miami Beach, and
14 that is a lifestyle choice they made.
So while we
15 incorporated 20 years ago for precisely this
16 reason, to be able to control our destinies, to be
17 able to address our building and zoning issues.
18 We now are all facing redevelopment, and we
19 need to -- we have a policy that we adopted when
20 we incorporated. We have the 2020 vision plan
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that gives us a philosophy or strategy for
handling things, and we need to start
incorporating the principles of why we
incorporated.
So we did inherit the development for the
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Ocean Club, and for the Grand Bay, and for the
other development --
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ritz Carlton.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Thank you, the Ritz
Carlton.
We then had -- were caught by surprise,
7 their pants down with Sonesta. No one thought the
8 redevelopment would happen so quickly. We were
9 completely unprepared, and now we see that the
10 village has evolved even more than we could
11 possibly imagine. The demographics, the sheer
12 demographics. We have from snowbird and retirees
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to full time residents, and many more families
14 than we ever expected. So I think this is a
15 reaction, and people are urging us to take
16 affirmative action. I don't mind taking
17 affirmative action, but I am tired of sitting
18 around and contemplating what should be done, and
19 I do think we need a strategy, and whether it's
20 several steps, that is fine, but we do need to
21 take an action. We do need to draw a line in the
22 sand.
23 We have, you know, in our 2020 vision plan,
24 we have target properties that were identified as
• 25
targeted and prime for redevelopment. They are no
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1 surprise to us. It's the entry corridor, which
2 has recently been purchased. It's the Harbor
3 Plaza, the Esplanade. There are two additional
4 properties that I think are prime for
5 redevelopment. The Arcade Mall, 20 Crandon, and
6 these are just commercial, but also in that 2020
7 plan, it identifies all of Sunrise and all of
8 Galen as prime for redevelopment.
9 We have right now, and I believe, Jud, is
10 the two buildings that are unoccupied. 101
11 Sunrise, is that currently occupied? And 285,
12 which is a rather large building. That is
5 13
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Is that 304?
14 MR. KURLANCHEEK: 303 Galen.
15 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: No, 285 Sunrise.
16 It's the old -- it's the old project.
17 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: No one is living
18 there, and then what on Galen? So we currently
19 have properties, multifamily properties that have
20 no occupancy, and they have a right to rebuild and
21 develop in some way, and if we don't get a hold of
22 a holistic approach to creating what we want to
23 maintain and value this community and the village
24 feel, then we are just -- we shouldn't be here.
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We are not doing what we set out to do. So we
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really need to take a step back and analyze, and
it's funny, the homeowners, they see a change.
They want it addressed, and they see what is going
on around them, and they have their very valid
5 points. They are absolutely right, but the people
6 in the condos on the east side feel that same
7 density, feel that same pressure, and so we need
8 to address both sides of the island, but we need
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to not just think about it. We really need to
take action.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Raging agreement. Raging
agreement.
So the merit in this ordinance is that it's
actionable, but it's not really effective action.
15 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, I think it's
16 a first step.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: It's a step.
18 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We clearly need to
19 do additional things. We need to -- I think the
20 building plan is absolutely necessary. I think we
21 need to readdress zoning. I think we need to
22 reconvene a ZORC or get some kind of outside
23 consultant that can help us with that.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: You know who is great at
• 25
that? Mayor Vernon is right. On February 22nd,
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our conversation kind of didn't allow this point
to be as fully realized as we have come to realize
it, and, you know, the school board really helped
make this point when they pointed to our
population growth over the last -- between the
6 last census and this census. It was all organic.
7 We built a unit in 20 years. We didn't permit,
8 Ms. Davitian, the projects that you mentioned. We
9 downsized them, but we didn't permit them.
10 MS. DAVITIAN: You permitted them.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: They were initially
12
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permitted under Miami -Dade County and they came
back --
MS. DAVITIAN: Not all of them.
MAYOR CAPLAN: -- with changes.
MS. DAVITIAN: Just the BMS property.
MAYOR CAPLAN: I think the Ocean Club and
Grand Bay both.
MS. DAVITIAN: Well, BMS included the Ocean
20 Club, but the Grand Bay was done later and it was
21 done -- I know the developer. He did it all, and
22 he did less than he could have done because he
23 lives in the community and feels that way.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: I mention this because we
• 25
haven't built a unit in all of this time, and our
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1 population growth is --
2 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: But it is
3 straggling up going one by one, and just going
4 through the motions is not going to work.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: I agree with you.
6 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: It's not going to
7 work, and we need to take affirmative action.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: I think one of the great
9 things is we welcome all of this. So what do we
10
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12
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14
15
do about it is the question, but I think about
whether it's a ZORC or something else, it's
actually a broader question.
We started to talk a little bit about this
when we were talking about the vacation rental
rates, which we did under dire pressure, part of
16 our own making. The issues that the gentleman was
17 speaking about at Botanica are analogical. They
18 tried to do head count limitations in bedrooms.
19 We do need to study this and we need to come up
20 with some kind of responsive solution because we
21 are getting --
22 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: But in the
23 meantime, do we control density and pass this
24 ordinance? Do we do a moratorium on building? Do
• 25
we start an analysis? I mean we just -
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1 MAYOR CAPLAN: Jim.
2 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Well, to address
3 the issue at hand, which is whether to amend this
4 ordinance to take out the referendum portion.
5
6
7
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That is all we have
spoken to.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Right. That is
8 what we are talking about right now. We are not
9 talking about the ordinance itself.
10 MAYOR CAPLAN: Right.
11 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: But as far as the
12 amendment is concerned, I have no problem making a
III 13 decision myself here, but, quite frankly, I feel
14 that this is a fundamental change or decision to
15 be made by this village. I have no problem taking
16 this to referendum and let the voters decide the
17 issue.
18 MAYOR CAPLAN: What issue?
19 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: And that is whether
20 or not to put a cap on density, and this density
21 myself to the east side.
22 When we get into discussion about the
23 ordinance itself, I would like to discuss the
24 Silver Sands.
• 25
I would like to discuss whether
other properties are involved and so forth, but as
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far as the amendment that has been proposed by
Councilmember Davey, I personally think we should
go to referendum and let the voters decide.
4 It took a four to three vote just to get
5 here. So even the council is somewhat split.
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Right, and informed.
7 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: That is why I think
8 it perhaps should go referendum. I think it's
9 very clear. I think the voters can understand the
10 issues and make that decision.
11 VICE MAYOR KELLY: With regards to
12 referendum, I am in favor of referendum for two
11,
13 reasons. First, because as Jim has so eloquently
14 said, I think the voters need to weigh in on this,
15 and the other aspect of this is if this ordinance
16 were to pass, it is merely an ordinance, which
17 could be changed by the subsequent councils. It
18 could be changed as early as November when three
19 new councilmembers come up here, and I think if it
20 was given the weight of an overwhelming voter
21 populace, the council may be a little less apt to
22 change it.
23 I also think it may provide some legal
24 protection should the developers try to start a
110 25
lawsuit because, again, you have the entire
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community speaking for this proposition, for this
ordinance.
So for those reasons, I would be in favor
of maintaining the referendum as part of this
ordinance.
MR. ECHEMENDIA: Mr. Mayor, it's just a
question.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Are you asking the
council?
MR. ECHEMENDIA: Yes, absolutely. I was
going to the chair.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Go ahead.
MR. ECHEMENDIA: I am a little confused
14 because there is some discussion.
Procedurally,
15 you have an HR ordinance and you have a density
16 ordinance.
There is some discussion.
17 On the density ordinance, if you read the
18 density ordinance, it's a referendum ordinance.
19 If you carve out the referendum, what you get is
20 basically a moratorium. I am just trying to
21
22
23
24
II 25
understand and see if you carve out the
referendum, you really have no ordinance other
than language that says you can't approve
anything, that nothing beyond what has been
approved pursuant to an existing development order
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1 can be exceeded, and that doesn't go to
2 referendum. So, in effect, you are adopting a
3 moratorium. That is more of a question than a
4 comment, but I think that is what the ordinance
5 gets converted into. Can you just help everybody
6
7
8
understand what happens if you remove the
referendum?
MR. HELFMAN: It's the same identical
9 ordinance. It just only becomes effective with
10 voter approval if it goes to the vote of the
11 electors, and if it doesn't, it becomes effective
12 on second reading. It's the same identical
5 13
ordinance. The effect of it is no different. The
14 voters' approval means nothing in terms of the
15 substance. So whatever its impact is, it is. The
16 voters can't change that.
17 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Understood. My question
18 is if you carve out -- the discussion seems to be
19 whether to take it to referendum or not.
20 MR. HELFMAN: Right.
21 MR. ECHEMENDIA: If Mr. Davey's amendment
22
23
24
5 25
passes, which means it doesn't go to referendum
but you adopt the density part, are you in effect
adopting a moratorium? That is, there is no
additional density beyond what has been approved
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1 under existing site plans? That is a question. I
2
3
4
am asking for the benefit of the council and the
audience.
MR. HELFMAN: It's not a moratorium.
5 Development can occur. There is just a limitation
6 on how many units can be built on particular
7 properties that come forward, but it doesn't stop
8 development. It may have the effect on any
9 particular property of limiting how many units,
10 but there is no moratorium.
11 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Fair enough. Just wanted
12 to -- because it's a little confusing when you
5 13
carve out the referendum.
14 MS. HUBER: Follow-up question. Doesn't
15 this have to go to a referendum under the existing
16 charter because it deals with density?
17 MR. HELFMAN: No, because it's not
18 increasing the density.
19 MS. HUBER: It's a change. It doesn't
20 necessarily say increase under your charter.
21 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is just
22
23
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argument, but I think it increases density or
intensity used.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Also changes in
definition.
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MS. HUBER: Right. That is why --
MR. HELFMAN: We haven't changed the
definition.
MS. HUBER: Okay.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: New district.
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: The lawyers are
7 confused by this. So let's understand it.
8 MR. ECHEMENDIA: That is what I am talking
9 about. All right? That is what I am saying.
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, lawyers.
11 MR. HELFMAN: Your lawyer is not confused.
12 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Exactly.
5 13
MAYOR CAPLAN: Any other discussion on the
14 motion to remove the referendum portion of this?
15 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: This is going to be
16 short and sweet. I have been against this from
17 the get -go, so I am not going to go through it
18 again, and the reason is because if this -- again,
19 I need to change my e-mail, but, you know, this
20 thing that went out, and I believe it was
21 generated by Dr. Kelly, was exactly the reason
22 this thing can't go to referendum because the
23 facts in it are untrue. I believe totally untrue,
24 and we are going to have the postcards again of
III 25 New York City. It will be delivered to everyone's
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1 home.
2
3
4
5
So, again, if I am reading this as not a
councilmember, but strictly as a citizen, I'm
going to sign this thing, and I'm going to sign
it, and I am going to sign again because I don't
6 want any more development. I don't think anybody
7 up here wants more development. Again, to me,
8 it's about property owners rights.
9 I'm totally against this. I would be
10
11
12
5 13
opposed against Mike's amendment, but that doesn't
mean that may not pass, but, again, the voters,
the way this is going out, I mean, I got e -mails
from people that live in Wisconsin for God's sake
14 on this thing. They are not even residents of the
15 island.
16 I am a little perturbed about this, but,
17 again, I have been against it.
I'll continue to
18 be against it, and that is where I am on this
19 thing. So without wasting any further time.
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let me mention one other
21 thing that is on my mind. You pointed out the
22
23
24
5 25
defense of it. It has some probable strength and
I'm aware of it
What is on my mind, though, is if we don't
change what -- something is going to change at
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1 Silver Sands probably. The property has not been
2 invested in in a long time. It's getting rather
3 tawdry. It's not likely that it's just going to
4 stay the same whatever we do. Something is going
5 to change. The zoning for that site allows a 150
6 foot tower on a small parameter. If we want to
7 guide a better outcome on that site, we have a
8 chance to do so. I know this is true. None of us
9 in our heart of hearts want one more unit. I know
10 that is true, and I don't need a referendum to
11 know what the people out there want in terms of
12 growth management. Anybody who has lived here for
5 13
more than three minutes knows the answer to that
14 question. But if we are going to have a voice in
15 this outcome, which we can, I wouldn't think it
16 optimal to foreclose that possibility by
17 referendum in part because of what I said earlier.
18 The question asked is going to be very susceptible
19 to a positive vote because the visceral reaction
20 is everybody is opposed to density as are all of
21 us, and if it goes down on that basis, you know,
22 we are going to be stuck with a 150 foot tower on
23 the footprint.
24 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Mr. Mayor, I just have
25 to answer one thing, and that is Councilman
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Gusman's statement that my petition was full of
untruths, I challenge you to pick out one untruth
other than Councilman Davey's remark that it
4 should have said may rather than will. Other than
5
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the number of potential residents in Oceana, I
want to know one thing that is untrue there.
Because it's one thing to challenge me for your
personal beliefs, but to call me a liar, I don't
accept.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I don't think a liar
came out of my mouth, Mike.
12 VICE MAYOR KELLY: You said it was untrue.
ID 13
You said there were multiple things that were
14 untrue, and I want to hear what they are.
15 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I am saying 616 new
16 residents and 308 sounds pretty arbitrary, very
17 arbitrary, specially when someone, and this may be
18 no fact either. I don't know. Again, e -mails
19 coming across like crazy.
20 But I have got another thing where if you
21 take the Miami -Dade County public schools facility
22 administrators, the student generation multiplier
23 for Key Biscayne multifamily units is .11. So not
24 six hundred -- not -- let's take Consultatio.
• 25
That would be 17 new students, not 308.
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1 So you understand my concern is when
2 someone sees this coming across their e -mails --
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: You believe there are
4 going to be 17 new students?
5 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I didn't say I don't
6 believe. I think that sounds a little crazy, but
7 I certainly don't think there is going to be 308.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let me do this.
9 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: All I am saying is I
10 remember the flyers of New York City scared the
11
12
5 13
heck out of everybody. People sat in front of
Winn -Dixie outside.
Mr. Mayor, let me talk. At least you let
14 the public. Please, may I?
15 MAYOR CAPLAN: I just want to keep this on
16 subject.
17 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: It is. I don't see
18 how it can be more subject. I'm talking about --
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: You are talking about the
20 veracity of the petition. You made your point.
21
22
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5 25
You are making your point about that you think
it's incorrect.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Then it is answered.
I will leave it at that.
I'll say it again. Never did I call
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1 Dr. Kelly a liar. That was never my intent. My
2 intent was I don't think -- I think this was sent
3 out. I just -- I don't think there is truisms in
4 this e-mail that went out. Okay? And I'll leave
5 it at that. Whether they are fact or whether they
6
7
8
are not, I don't think Dr. Kelly can show me facts
on this either.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: If you really want to go
9 there, the 12,000 residents in one square mile,
10 that is a fact. That the population density
11 greater than Detroit, Cleveland.
12 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Absolutely.
111
13 Absolutely.
14 VICE MAYOR KELLY: That is a fact.
15 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Absolutely.
16 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Key Biscayne's
17 population has increased by 17 percent over the
18 last ten years. That is a fact.
19 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Absolutely.
20 VICE MAYOR KELLY: The number of children
21 under 18 has increased by 35 percent. That is a
22 fact. KBCS is at 130 percent capacity. That is a
23 fact.
24 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Actually, I called
• 25
and looked.
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1 VICE MAYOR KELLY: The village green is
2 bare with dirt and rocks. That is a fact.
3 Parking is difficult at the Winn -Dixie and the
4 community center. That is a fact.
5
6
7
Do you want me to keep going? You have one
number.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Will you put order
8 here, Mr. Mayor? This is ridiculous.
9
10
11
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Don't tell me those
aren't the facts.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Put some order.
12 MAYOR CAPLAN: Enough. Let's get back on
5 13
the subject at hand. Let's get back on the
14 subject at hand. The subject at hand is whether
15 we remove the referendum from the ordinance.
16 Let's try to keep our tempers. You made
17 your point. You made your point in response.
18 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Can I call the
19 question.
20 MS. DUQUE: There is a motion on the floor
21 by Councilmember Davey to remove any language
22 referring to referendum.
23
24
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MAYOR CAPLAN: And the resulting effect
will be?
MR. HELFMAN: Let me just so everybody is
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clear what you are voting on.
Currently, this ordinance if it passed by
you would only become effective, it would go out
to the voters and it would only become effective
if the voters approved it.
There is a motion to take out the voter
7 approval provision. So that it will either pass
8 or fail here, and that will be the end of it.
9 Okay? It will end here with your vote either on
10
11
12
first or second reading, but it will not move on
to the voters if you decide to take that provision
out.
III 13 So you are voting now to take out the
14 provision, the motion is to take out the voter
15 approval provision in this ordinance.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: As Councilmember Garcia
17 related, there is an initiative provision in the
18 charter. Right?
19 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Correct.
20 MAYOR CAPLAN: If the residents wanted to
21 bring this question up for the electors, there is
22 a procedure to do so.
23 MR. HELFMAN: They could. They could.
24 VICE MAYOR KELLY: There is also the
• 25
ability for the council to bring something to the
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1 electorate.
2 MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I just want to point out
4
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9
the irony of those who speak against the council
doing that when, in fact, they sent an item out to
referendum when it was about the second vote on
the charter change, and it was the one time that
the people had spoken and the council used that
opportunity to use their power to send it back
10 again. The irony of people saying now, we should
11
12
ID 13
never send something to referendum is
mind -boggling.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: The council never
14 sent out a disinformation campaign such as the one
15 proffered in 2007, such as this petition. That is
16 my concern.
17 I have no problem. The people of this
18 community are intelligent.
19 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Is there a vote? Is
20 there a vote?
21 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Excuse me. Mike, I
22 have allowed you to speak. Quite frankly, the
23 people I knew who signed this petition I called
24 and said, hey, why did you sign this petition.
5 25
And they said, well, I am against density. I
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1 said, you take a poll of this council. Everybody
2 is against increases in density on this council.
3 Everyone of us, as the mayor has eloquently said,
4 does not want to see increases in density. This
5
6
7
is not the right way to do it. I don't agree with
it, and I explained my position. They said, oh, I
hadn't thought of it that way. The problem here,
8 as I stated to you before, when you start telling
9 people that it will add 616 new residents --
10 MAYOR CAPLAN: We made that point.
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Well, but I want him
12 to understand that is the real issue.
III 13 VICE MAYOR KELLY: What does that have to
14 do with the referendum?
15 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Because when
16 information is put out there that is not honest,
17 it's disingenuous, that doesn't truly tell all the
18 facts -- Mike, your thing about the twin towers at
19 the end of the island was ridiculous.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Wait a minute.
21 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let me stop this right now.
22 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I have a
23 different -
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let me stop. There is
5 25
nothing in this petition that is disingenuous.
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There is a supposition that there is probably a
reach because it reaches a conclusion that is not
founded in empirical data.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Correct.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: That is the one thing. All
6 right?
7 Is there something you want to add?
8 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: You know the
9 reality is we have several properties that will
10 once they are occupied increase density. So the
11 reality is we will continue growing. It's how we
12
5 13
14
are going to control that growth and how we are
going to try to maintain the village feel.
As Jud confirmed, Sunrise 101, completely
15 empty. Sunrise 285, completely. Galen 304?
16 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I think it's 303.
17 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: 303, completely
18 empty. So we will have growth and we will have
19 more children in the school. So it's not a big
20 stretch, and I think that what people are
21 concerned about is the constant redevelopment and
22 growth.
23 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: But that time can be
24 addressed through reasonable manner and not
• 25
through hysteria.
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COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, but I
think --
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: The question has been
called.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I think people are
smart enough to take it for face value and make
their own decision.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Let's call the question.
MR. ECHEMENDIA: Mr. Mayor, can I just one
last thing?
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I believe in the
people in this community.
Sir, we are having a conversation.
14 MR. ECHEMENDIA: I understand. I didn't
15 mean to interrupt.
16 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I believe in the
17 people. Don't ever suggest that I don't. I
18 always believe in the people.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: I have done this three
20 times. Here is the deal, ladies and gentlemen, we
21 are going to remove the rancor from this
22 discussion, and we are going to have a temperate
23 conversation about the substance of this
24 ordinance. We are not going to be bringing the
• 25
disingenuity of the petition. We are not going to
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1 be bringing up the inevitability of growth. We
2 all understand that. We are not going to bring up
3 everybody's frustration who is out in this
4 community because we all get it. We are as
5 frustrated as they are. Okay?
6
7
8
We have a question before us. Let's take
the poll.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Mr. Mayor, can I add
9 something? I do have a concern about what this
10 gentleman just brought up if we do change, if we
11 amend this. How does it affect?
12 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Could I clarify,
5 13
14
15
Mr. Mayor, what the point is? It's a very
important legal point.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: How does it affect
16 this first reading? Now I am really confused.
17 Explain. How does -- if we take out that it won't
18 go to the electorate --
19 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Robert, can I explain
20 something, please?
21 The Silver Sands has a development order
22 approved by the county. If you adopt this without
23 the referendum, just read what it reads. It says
24 no site plan, no site plan shall be approved which
• 25
would permit any development which would result in
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an increase in residential density in excess of
the density previously approved for the subject
property by a valid development order.
That means you kill the prospect of an
Aman. We are limited to the Silver Sands as it
exists today.
MAYOR CAPLAN: We are not having --
MR. HELFMAN: We are not at the motion on
the ordinance yet. We are talking about -- let's
10 talk about what we are talking about. Okay?
11 The issue is not the substance of the
12 ordinance right now. We will get to the substance
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of the ordinance, and you can vote it up or down.
Right now it's simply whether or not once you
vote -- if you vote the ordinance down, it is
never going to the voters anyway.
17 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Correct. That, I
18 understand.
19 MR. HELFMAN: So it will never come up.
20 All right? But what this issue is is if the
21 ordinance should pass, this is a decision that
22 under no circumstance will it go to the voters
23 even if it passes. This is a decision where a
24 majority of you may say, you know what, even if we
• 25
pass this ordinance, it stays here. It is our
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1 decision. It's not going to be a voter decision.
2 We are not going to send this out into the
3 village.
4 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Do we then rehash
5 the whole thing again and vote again?
6 MR. HELFMAN: You haven't hashed it out.
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COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I think we hashed
out a heck of a lot.
MR. HELFMAN: There is a whole hashing out
10 that has gone on as to whether or not the voters
11 should get the issue. That has been a discussion
12 here. Okay? And the public has spoken to the
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substance of the matter, but for right now, Bob,
14 the only issue that you should concern yourself
15 with is: Do you want the voters to get this
16 matter if you should approve it, if you should
17 approve it, but you haven't approved it yet.
18 Okay? I'm not sure that you will. You may not.
19 There may not be four votes here to approve it.
20 What has been placed on the table is just
21 the concept of, basically, what has been said is
22 under no circumstances does the mover of this
23 ordinance want it to go out to the public for a
24 vote. Even if it should pass, it has to be an
• 25
action of this council and it ends there. The
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1 responsibility is with this council, not with the
2 voters. Okay?
3 So you are doing nothing on the substance
4 of the ordinance right now. You are simply saying
5 it's not going to go to the voters, and then we
6 will vote on what we think of it.
7 MAYOR CAPLAN: All right.
8 MS. DUQUE: Roll call.
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Vice Mayor Kelly.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Is yes, meaning that
it's --
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Yes is for --
MR. HELFMAN: Yes means you would like it
to go to the voters.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: No, no. Yes is to
amend the ordinance.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: No.
18 MR. HELFMAN: I'm sorry. All right.
19 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Lindsay.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
21 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Taintor.
22 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: No.
23 MS. DUQUE: Mayor Caplan.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes.
ID 25
MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Davey.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Yes.
2 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Garcia.
3 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Yes.
4 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Gusman.
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COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: No.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: That was about the
most bizarre vote.
MS. DUQUE: Motion carries.
9 MAYOR CAPLAN: Do you have the feeling that
10 what we just voted on -- I have a feeling we got
11 lost in the essence of that issue.
12 You did. I did. I am not sure.
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COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: How many votes did we
get yes?
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: It died.
16 MS. DUQUE: It was a four three, so the
17 motion carries. The voters permission will be
18 removed.
19 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: You got lucky.
20 MR. HELFMAN: It's not what you wanted to
21 do.
22 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Now we go to the
23 substance of the ordinance?
24 Now we go to the substance.
10 25
MAYOR CAPLAN: All right. One of the
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1 things about taking this step is to take a step.
2 It's, you know, symbolic. We have difficulties
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taking the important steps, probably no different
from a lot of institutions and governments, and I
think there may be merit in having a whole new
look at density as a result of changes because we
have used the analogy of the meeting or heading
8 the PUDs for example. I am not sure that we have
9 a clear answer what can get rebuilt. I know we
10 have a clear answer on what we wish that outcome
11 to be, which is either the same or fewer units.
12 We are not dealing yet with population. We are
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only talking about units. So I think that some
device to address this as part of a larger
discussion about the points that we have been
talking about tonight that include population is
probably important.
What I don't want, and I think would be a
mistake is to not consider whether this proposal
that these people have brought forth has any merit
and whether it results in something we actually
like, whether it might make for a better outcome
if there is inevitability of change at the Silver
Sands anyway, and to divest ourselves of a voice
in this or a possibility of influencing what
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happens there because of a density cap ordinance
or, frankly, the HR ordinance passes they can't do
3 this. At least if you take at face value what the
4 gentleman said from Setai. So as it stands
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tonight, I don't want to foreclose what we might
think is a good option.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We can always
8 speculate about what the best outcome is going to
9 be. I mean, as it stands now, we have three empty
10 condos that will be redeveloped.
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The difference
with this property is that it has never been a
condo, and, actually, I asked Jud a question about
the master plan, and whether we actually could
approve any more units, and I would like to get
that answer because it is pretty clear.
16 MR. KURLANCHEEK: I think let's start with
17 the three buildings that you mentioned.
18 Redevelopment can mean occupancy the way they are.
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I meant
20 specifically with Silver Sands.
21 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Under the Silver Sands,
22 there is a variety of apartment to hotel mixes.
23 You can go to a maximum of 116.
24 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Under the density
IP 25
requirements of the master plan, what is
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1 acceptable without going into any options, just
2 without giving alternatives?
3 MR. KURLANCHEEK: You can go to a 62 unit
4 apartment building or you can have 116 hotel
5 rooms, and then depending on the mix of that, that
6 varies. So you can go to 50 hotel or 34
7 apartments or you can go to 75 hotel or 22
8 apartments, but there is a mix.
9 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: There is a
10 requirement to meet concurrency, though. Can they
11 meet concurrency?
12 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We have been looking at
13 concurrency from two points. One is what is the
14 village's requirement for concurrency.
15 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: The village, what
16 is our concurrency?
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We are short right now
18 somewhere over six acres.
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: So could you
20 without getting a kind of variance or an option
21 give a CO?
22 MR. KURLANCHEEK: They would have to go the
23 same route that the Consultatio project went.
24 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: If we granted that.
• 25
That was an alternative. But if we choose not to
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1 give an alternative, where are they at?
2 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Well, there -- Steve,
3 maybe you want to help. There are certain items
4 dealing with the one year from CO date that the
5 village has to be apprised.
6 VICE MAYOR KELLY: The site plan we
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approved tonight for that building said that they
met open space concurrency because it didn't apply
to them because going down --
10 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Going to correct.
11 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
12 VICE MAYOR KELLY: But that would not be
5 13
true in a site plan presented by these people.
14 MR. KURLANCHEEK: Exactly.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: So we would have to
16 somehow ignore our own criteria to approve a site
17 plan for that project.
18 MR. KURLANCHEEK: You would have to look at
19 the same way you approved the site plan for the
20 Consultatio.
21 MR. HELFMAN: You would have to exercise an
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exception that is within your comprehensive plan
and code to allow them to build, and the lack of
capacity for a public park land would preclude
them from getting a development order, a site plan
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1 approved. You don't currently have sufficient
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capacity, and the law as it applies in this
community would preclude the issuance of a site
plan approval today.
There is a mechanism in your code and comp
plan which is in your discretion that would allow
you to override that, which is really what was
done in the Consultatio project where you overrode
the prohibition and allowed the project to go
forward and basically said that concurrency should
be met a year after CO.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: That was done by --
MR. HELFMAN: That was done by the previous
14 developer, not by Consultatio and the previous
15 commission. So that is how they overcame the
16 problem, but that, again, is within the discretion
17 of this council.
18 If they just proceeded forward through a
19 normal process without the exception being
20 granted, they could not get a development order
21 today.
22 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Because the master
23 plan prohibits it.
24 MR. HELFMAN: Because there is insufficient
• 25
capacity in particular with regard to public open
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: They wouldn't meet
concurrency.
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR CAPLAN: That's parks in that, an
open space.
MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
MAYOR CAPLAN: There was something that I
noted somewhere along the way today as I was
thinking about this.
On hurricane evacuation, is our mandate
under comp plan to reduce density for hurricane
evacuation?
MR. KURLANCHEEK: It would be very
15 difficult for the property that was zoned
16 commercial, and you rezone multiple family, and
17 justify how you do that because of our
18 requirements for hurricane evacuation. When you
19 are looking at those criteria, you want to
20 eliminate as best as possible any new residential
21 development because residential development has to
22 evacuate and the difficulties with that where a
23 hotel guest gets on the next plane.
24 MR. HELFMAN: One of the premises of this
• 25
ordinance, and one of the goals and/or policies of
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our comprehensive plan is that we will restrict
any new residential development in order to not
create a greater burden on hurricane evacuation.
That has always been in the comprehensive plan.
It is one of the basis for adopting this ordinance
and one of the whereas provisions, if you will,
that supports if you wanted to pass this ordinance
that would support a density cap or density
limitation.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Apart from the whereas
11 clause, are we debarred because of the --
12 MR. HELFMAN: You are not debarred. It's
5 13
not concurrency regulation, but it is a goal
14 policy and objective. If someone wanted to
15 challenge the issuance of the site plan, they
16 could claim that you acted in violation of your
17 comprehensive plan because you issued a
18 development order that authorized new development
19 which was inconsistent with your comprehensive
20 plan which says you are not going to do that.
21 MAYOR CAPLAN: Got it.
22 VICE MAYOR KELLY: If this proposed hybrid
23 Aman development -
24 MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
• 25
VICE MAYOR KELLY: -- were presented to the
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1 Dade County public schools --
2 MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Through the same process
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that the developer went through tonight, would
they approve that?
MR. HELFMAN: They would ask for their form
7 of mitigation. They would extract a financial
8 contribution from them and then allow them to
9 proceed forward.
10 MAYOR CAPLAN: We discussed this
11 theoretically. They have a number anticipating
12 whatever we might do. One possibility is that
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this thing could get approved. They attributed a
14 number of the additional seats that would be
15 required if this thing is built and there is a
16 worsening involving awful impact.
17 MR. KURLANCHEEK: We had a conversation
18 with the staff of Dade County dealing with the
19 site. He said that there would be some kind of
20 impact fee associated with this because they do
21 not have any existing residential development.
22 MR. HELFMAN: They are not in the stop
23 development business. They are in the get paid
24 per development business.
• 25
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah.
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1 MAYOR CAPLAN: By the way, that impact fee,
2 so think in terms of impact fees being correlated
3 to a solution to the impact. It is also true that
4 there are no solutions to some impacts.
5 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, that is my
6 concern is that there are no solutions. You know,
7 that we are maxed out. We cannot create more
8 land.
9 MAYOR CAPLAN: To be honest --
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We are landlocked.
11 That is the biggest problem. If there were a
12 solution, I would -- I am a practical person, but
13 at some point on an island that is one and a half
14 miles, you know, one and a half square miles, you
15 have to acknowledge that you are maxed out, and I
16 think, you know, everyone feels that way,
17 including the residents that signed the petition
18 and were not frightened. They know and they are
19 intelligent people and they understand that they
20 are maxed out. They go to the grocery store.
21 They go to the fields.
22 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Let me take a second and
23 just add onto that. Okay. First of all, this is
24 the copy of the 580 signatures that were done by
• 25
today, and earlier I think someone made the point
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1 that they were from Wisconsin. You guys can look
2 through this. You will see that every signature
3 has a town associated with it. There may be a
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handful, so someone won't say I am being
intellectually dishonest, there may be handful
that came from off the Key, but it's less than one
percent.
Secondly, I want to read some of the
comments that people put with their signatures.
One says, while this won't affect Oceana, it will
hopefully send a message of limits need to be set
and the council and mayors have grown too close to
real estate connections while neglecting the needs
14 of residents. Growth can be good. Too much of it
15 on a small scale destroys the beauty we all come
16 here for.
17 Another person wrote, this is absolutely
18 necessary. Our streets, our schools, our parks,
19 our community center, our grocery store, our
20 parking capacity are all overgrown. This is a
21 matter of self-preservation for ourselves and our
22 children. Permitting an increase in population
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together with insufficient public facilities,
private infrastructure and space will result in a
decrease in property values and quality of life.
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1 The benefits to the community of an additional
2 residential builder are much smaller than the
3 cost. We have to be reasonable and avoid being
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guided by money and consider the overall welfare
of the residents.
What is interesting to me is these don't
7 seem like unintelligent people. These do not seem
8 like people who were fooled by a petition that
9 appealed to emotions. These seemed like the
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comments that I hear on a daily basis from people
who are concerned about the island that they live
in, and I just want to make the point there has
been a lot of bad things ascribed to this
petition, but it really is the voice of your
community who all came out in a week's time to try
and let this council know how they felt.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: I absolutely agree with
18 that. I absolutely agree with that. This is
19 broad speaking.
No question about it.
20 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Are we discussing
21 the merits now? Are we into -- because I am
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confused with this meeting again. And I say,
where are we?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good, Enrique.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: We are now into the
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substance.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Correct.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Okay? Whenever you
4 give me a chance, let me have a word.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: It sounds like you have the
6 floor.
7 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Yeah. We are all
8 fed up with the growth that happened here, but at
9 the same time, there is property rights. At the
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same time, every property here has been downsized.
You might say it's every property that is up for
redevelopment has been downsized by the units. We
talked about this property that came in tonight.
14 They have 30 apartments. They have 31 bedrooms.
15 They are going to have 33 beds, my understanding,
16 if I add the whole thing correctly.
17 At the same time, the Silver Sands has been
18 here for 40 years. Everybody knows that that is
19 an HR property. Everybody knows here that is a
20 dated property. Everybody knows that that mix had
21 a residential component. This is not a surprise
22 for anybody. To go back and rezone this, only one
23 property we are rezoning. That is block zoning.
24 We are not talking about anything else, and the
• 25
component that they have brought in today, I
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think, is a great solution to where we have to go.
We can sit here and bicker and fight, but
as Mayra said, all these properties are going to
be redeveloped, and as Mayor Vernon said, we would
5 not have to block whether we like it or not. It
6 might be a hotel. It might be an apartment
7 building. So we have to try to negotiate
8 something down that will bring something to the
9 community that has the ambiance and the spirit of
10 the community that we want, and I think these
11 people are on the right track. They have shown
12 something that is going in the right track. I
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cannot vote on anything that limits property or
14 people's rights. I am an immigrant. I think the
15 only immigrant on this table -- were you born in
16 Cuba and came here? Okay. That is two of us. We
17 all came here because it was a disaster where we
18 were; our safety and our property rights.
19 What we are trying to do here is act like
20 God and government on this property, and I think
21 it is wrong. They are entitled to the rights that
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they have had for 40 years. We are not just doing
a whole district. We are doing one property, and
that is my say. I will vote no for it. It's your
chance now.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Mr. Garcia, I just
2 want to redirect. You were talking about the
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density ordinance and not the property, and I
think the issue that is being discussed is that
this density ordinance discusses or affects all
6 redevelopment. So that is why it's important.
7 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: When the word
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density comes in, Mayra, I look at a 120 room
hotel and a 38 room luxury apartment and they are
talking about, I don't know, 5,000 square feet
plus and a 40 hotel room, you know, high class, I
think that will bring a lot less density and
traffic than a full-fledged hotel will be.
14 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Part of the --
15 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I am not finished.
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I am sorry about
17 that.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I live right next to
19 the Ritz and so does Mike Kelly. I mean, 7:00 in
20 the morning food trucks are coming in. 7:00 in
21 the morning workers are coming in. There is all
22 sorts -- when there is a party, traffic. What
23 does a hotel bring? A big hotel. That is what it
24 brings into the mixture.
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These people have
proposed something that makes sense. I would
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1 strongly recommend that we study this because this
2 makes sense, and this is our time to run with it.
3 That is my opinion. I humbly put it on the
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table. I will respect, of course, what you guys
decide.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: One of the things
7 that a hotel, if that were the way we would go,
8 would bring in is business to our merchants. That
9 has always been discussed as an incredible impact
10 that has been missing since the Sonesta closed.
11 I am not saying -- again, I am discussing
12 density in general, but I am just also, you
13 know --
14 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I believe that is
15 true that it fits the hotel because that hotel is
16 going to be fed by one street. That is density
17 for you.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: But you bought there
19 knowing the Ritz was there.
20 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: You bought when the
21 Ritz was there, and you bought there when the
22 Silver Sands was there. Since I started real
23 estate 20 years ago, everybody has been thinking,
24 after Andrew, when is the Silver Sands going to
• 25
redevelop. It's a dated property. They have kept
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1 it well. They met all our codes. They have been
2 unable to pay the taxes, but it's a dated
3 property. That property will go whether we like
4 it or not, and if we want to have a green space,
5 then, you know, increase your taxes and maybe make
6 it into a park. That is the only -- but
7 infringing on property rights, it is terrible, and
8 we are going to do that, we will have to pay them
9 for it.
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Well, we have had
11 zoning in progress for how long?
12 MAYOR CAPLAN: Five years.
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COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: After they bought
14 this property. They have been owners of this
15 property for over 20 years.
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We are allowed to
17 rezone.
18 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: I understand, Mayra.
19 Okay. Mayra, I don't want to -- please, go ahead.
20 I expressed my opinion without quizzing you. I
21 just -- let's express our opinion and go on with
22 it. Then call the vote.
23 I mean, we are all neighbors. I have to
24 say to Mike. You know, Mike Kelly and I fight
• 25
here every time. I have to wash up. I think I
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1 have cancer on my skin, and he very nicely comes
2 by. I trust him blindly as a father, as a doctor,
3 and here we disagree at everything. So let's stop
4 the bicker now, express our opinions, and vote.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes. Part of the
6 conversation is that if something is perceived
7 differently or something is perceived incorrectly,
8 we are supposed to say so. That is how we have a
9 lively conversation.
10 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I have two points,
11 two issues with the ordinance. The first issue I
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have is that, you know, when this was drafted, it
was, in fact, in my opinion drafted to affect the
one property, the Silver Sands because the hotel
was considered to be, and that is coming up for
second reading, but it was considered that could
17 be found to be, I don't know, illegal. I don't
18 think that is the word, but could be overturned by
19 a court. So I think that is why this ordinance
20 came forward, and that was my initial concern with
21 this ordinance in that it affects one property.
22 But I think, and Mayra actually brought it
23 up before, there is a larger problem here that
24 needs to be addressed. We need to figure out, and
• 25
the people from the west side -- I don't like
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1 calling us the east side and the west side, but
2 it's the easier way to do it. The people from the
3 west side are coming up saying, hey, we are having
4 real problems with density too. You know, these
5 are going up. They are huge and the people of the
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east side have their own issues.
We really need to step back, and look at
what the real issues are and how do we efficiently
9 address them. The way we are doing it now by
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saying we can't approve anything, what is the
impact of this ordinance on all those properties?
We don't know what that impact is going to be.
I think if we are going to do this, let's
14 do it right. Let's look at all the impacts, and
15 then come to a decision. I don't think this is
16 the right way to do it. I understand we want to
17 react, but I often think that a knee jerk reaction
18 is not always the best way to go.
19 The way this thing was created was not
20 looking at the whole east side, honestly. It was
21 looking at one property. How do we prevent this?
22 I don't think it's the right time for this. I
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think if we go forward, if we start looking at
these condominiums, and start saying how many
people are in and how much FAR is being used right
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now, how many units are in.
I think we have to do more studying on
everything in order to make an educated decision
4 for this community. I don't think this is the way
5 to go.
6 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We are in a
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catch -22 because if we don't set our guidelines,
if we don't draw our line in the sand, there is
always going to be discretion, and there is
always, you know --
MAYOR CAPLAN: I am feeling a conundrum and
12 I'll share it. Maybe this will lead to an idea.
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My conundrum is I don't want one more unit,
and the second part, I fully appreciate the
magnitude of the property generally, and I
understand that this ordinance doesn't really --
17 is aiming at the wrong target. We have a
18 different issue than this ordinance really
19 addresses. It's a step, but it's really not an
20 effective step.
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I wouldn't say it's
22 ineffective, not an effective. It may be
23 incomplete.
24 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Correct. We have
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to do more. It's a first step. It's a first
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1 step.
2 MAYOR CAPLAN: Better said.
3 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: May I tell you a
4 story?
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: The other point is I don't
6 know what is going to happen to the Silver Sands.
7 I want there to be no residential units. I have
8 been consistent in my speech on that point
9 forever, and I haven't changed my mind. I am also
10 pragmatic. I just don't know where this is going
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to wind up, but I wouldn't want to kill whatever
merit might lie in this proposition without seeing
whether we can make it better, whether we can, you
know, realize the benefits, and minimize the
15 detriments or eliminate the detriments. I don't
16 know, but I don't want to kill it.
17 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I have to tell you
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I was under the impression when extended or we
gave an extension to this, the HR issue, and that
this ordinance has evolved because density has
been such a big -- is a hot issue, but I thought
that the marching orders, you know, there would be
a contract at hand, and I just think it's all
great idea, and nothing concrete, and I just
think, once again, we can put things off forever,
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and we are still not with five years of zoning in
progress, and it's all sorts of issues that we
haven't addressed, and I think the density
ordinance is a great first step.
5 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I also want to applaud
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Mr. Helfman because I promoted the hotel only
aspect that we are going to consider in the second
reading, and he looked at the picture globally,
and said, hey, you know, you guys have been
10 talking about this for a long time. Why don't you
11 look at something that addresses the problem
12 globally instead of just focusing on that one
IP 13
aspect. I said, boy, the light bulb went off in
14 my head. I say, you know what, that makes sense.
15 So I don't think that the idea that
16 Councilman Davey promoted that this was just a
17 reaction to the HR district being undefendable is
18 really the case. I think it really was very
19 insightful on his part, and it showed historically
20 how this has been a concern of this community for
21 a long time. That we as a council have an
22 opportunity to do something. Now doing something,
23 one thing I learned after four years is doing
24 something up here is hard. You know, it would be
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great if I was the only vote, but some people
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1 would regret that, but, you know, trying to get
2 any consensus is difficult, and things take a
3 long, long time. It's like we are trying to
4 influence an elephant sometimes.
5 So, you know, Joe Biden said, you know,
6 don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to
7 the alternative. It's easy to look at this
8 ordinance and say, you know, Barry Goldmeier says
9 it's a nefarious plot to go after the single
10 family home. Buzz says it's Pandora's box, you
11 know. Meanwhile, Ceci says, my God, we are not
12 doing enough with this. We need to be going after
III 13 the single family homes.
14 It's impossible to craft something that is
15 going to please everybody. All right?
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: At once.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: At once. I think this
18 pleases a lot of people. I think my petition
19 shows that. I think the community shows that. Is
20 it perfect? Absolutely not. Does it go far
21 enough? I don't know. I think there is virtue in
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taking baby steps rather than trying to do
something global mainly because I don't think it's
ever going to get done, but also you are most apt
to make a mistake. If you can focus your
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attention to one thing, maybe you are going to
make a better choice there.
So, you know, I kind of see where we are
4 headed. Councilman Davey often says I count the
5 votes and I know where we are headed.
6 You know, this probably won't pass. I
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think, once again, the will of the people is going
to be ignored, and I know there is those who would
differ with that statement, but I think it will.
10 You know what? It is sad to say, I think people
11 say, don't shirk your responsibility by sending it
12 to the people. I think we may be shirking our
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responsibility by not passing this, and I think,
once again, the people are going to have to band
together, and go to the Winn Dixie, and collect
signatures, and take it to referendum just like
they have in all the situations where they wanted
something done, and the council wouldn't do it for
them, and we are going to see this on the ballot.
My concern is that may happen before the
Silver Sands gets their ducks together and goes
ahead and builds the, you know, the 64 residential
units.
24 MR. CUEVAS: Thirty-eight.
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: Eighty-eight?
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1 MR. CUEVAS: Thirty-eight.
2 VICE MAYOR KELLY: But I have no assurance
3 that we are going to -- we have nothing except
4 talks between you and the mayor. I have no
5 assurance that come -- and we ask you not to do
6 anything for the two months period. Well, that is
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over. So I have no assurance whatsoever that you
8 don't already have a buyer, and that you are going
9 to go to Jud on Tuesday with a development plan
10 under the existing code and all this could have
11 been a ruse. I have no assurance of that, and
12 that is my concern.
• 13
If we don't pass this tonight, it all could
14 be a ruse. It could all fall through, and then by
15 the time the citizens get their act together and
16 do what the council should have done, one more
17 giant condo, one more building like Max Puyanic's
18 postcard, which everyone says is far-fetched, but
19 the Oceana project looks an awful lot like one of
20 those buildings on that postcard.
21 MR. CUEVAS: What would you like to see on
22 the land?
23 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Sir, you are out of
24 order.
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: So that is my concern.
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I know where we are going, but I feel better
having gotten it out, and if anybody in the
community wants to work on going towards on
referendum on their own, I will be happy to help
them with it.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Frank, I have to --
7 MAYOR CAPLAN: Go ahead.
8 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: If I may.
9 Dr. Kelly, I'll tell you what. You know,
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this thing you sent out, it could say restrict
additional residential density on the Village of
Key Biscayne period, and you would have 500
signatures. I guarantee it. However saying that,
14 if those 500 people, if those 500 people had
15 Mackle homes and you were to say to those 500
16 people, this is going to include your Mackle home,
17 you cannot sell it for any more than you bought it
18 for, would they still be for this? I think the
19 500 would say, are you kidding me. I mean, you
20 are now taking away my property rights. That is
21 my right as a homeowner out here. Fair value. I
22 can get what I can within the law of Key Biscayne.
23 We are doing the same thing to these people, and I
24 think it's wrong. I am telling you, there is no
25 doubt in my mind that -- I am surprised you only
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1 got 500. I thought you would get a thousand.
2 Okay? And you don't need to say all this other
3 stuff. It could have just been five words.
4 Restrict additional residential density. You
5 would have gotten it. But I hope those people
6 know that they could be next. They could be next.
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: Let me ask you a
question.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Or what? It
couldn't happen, Mike?
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I don't think so,
12 no.
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COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: How? Tell me how.
14 You just heard it from three people out here
15 today. We are looking west. I would agree with
16 Buzz. Be careful what you ask for.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: When the council took
18 away the ability to build duplexes on Fernwood
19 Road, they infringed upon the property rights of
20 homeowners.
21 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: And I would have
22 been one hundred percent against that.
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: Yet the council did, and
the council did.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: I don't agree with
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1 it.
2 MR. VERNON: I have to to say something.
3 That is only because 24 of the 26 homeowners
4 sitting here asked us to do it.
5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That is right. They
6 came.
7 MR. VERNON: That was the only reason that
8 was done. It wasn't taking away anybody's
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property right.
Just real quick question. I know -- I
would -- thank you, Mr. Mayor.
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Well, but that means
that two didn't.
MR. VERNON: Right, and they weren't here.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: We are talking about one
16 here.
17 MR. VERNON: But the two weren't here.
18 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Yeah, but that doesn't
19 matter.
20 MR. VERNON: I am just saying.
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: It doesn't matter. If
22 we did that in favor of a single property owner
23 MR. VERNON: Is there vested rights
24 provision in this ordinance?
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MR. HELFMAN: No.
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1 MR. VERNON: Well, I respectfully ask that
2 you put it in. Because I can tell you right now,
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like Councilman Gusman just said, you can take
that to virtually every single Mackle owner
whose -- and I can march in -- every person that
is building a house out here today, every
developer, and they will tell you to a person,
they will not pay a million three if they can't
build what they are building.
10 VICE MAYOR KELLY: With all due respect,
11 this has nothing to do with the ordinance.
12 MR. VERNON: I understand that. That is
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why --
14 VICE MAYOR KELLY: This has nothing to do
15 with the Mackle owner.
16 MR. VERNON: There should be a vested
17 rights.
18 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let me tell you where I
19 stand.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is just fear
21 mongering is what it is.
22 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: This petition has to
23 do with Mackle owners, though. There are a ton of
24 Mackle owners. I looked in your list. I probably
• 25
know a dozen of them, and they are Mackle owners
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1 that signed this petition, Mayra.
2 VICE MAYOR KELLY: You are talking about
3 speculation to the nth degree here. Now you are
4 saying what they might think it says. That is far
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more different than what people signed this
petition thought.
COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Michael, I'm saying
8 people signed this out of -- I would sign it out
9 of fear of density.
10 VICE MAYOR KELLY: All right. We are not
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talking about the petition.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Let's call the
question.
MAYOR CAPLAN: This has no effect on single
family homes.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: No. Yeah. It's
fear mongering.
MR. HELFMAN: By the way, just so you
19 understand what Buzz was referring to, which is
20 not unusual. A vested rights provision or a
21 taking provision is not unusual when you pass
22 something like this. To the extent that somebody
23 believes that an ordinance like this shouldn't
24 pass, would be denying them some particular
25 special vested rights that they had, okay, they
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would have a right to come forward to a set time
period, let's say 180 days or something, where
they could come in and put forward a case that
said, hey, I have a special right to build here.
Either I hold a permit or you are taking my
property rights by virtue of this ordinance, and
they would come before this council to try to
establish those rights, and you would have an
opportunity on an individual basis to look at a
Silver Sands or whoever it might be, because this
applies to all properties, almost all properties,
and they could plead their case before you. So it
wouldn't be an absolute. It would give some
relief to a property owner who would want to make
15 their particular case. That is what he was
16 saying.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: There is a variation on
18 that. I love taking steps. It's great to take
19 action, even if it's imperfect, because we are
20 moving forward. We are making progress, but I
21 don't want to kill this possibility if we don't
22 have to, because it might be a good one. It might
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turn out to be something that would be beneficial.
So your point about, you know, shame on us
if they sell it tomorrow, they permit something
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1 that is 62 units. We ought to be pilloried.
2 To your point that within this period of
3 time maybe we expected something more tangible --
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Something.
5 MAYOR CAPLAN: We don't have it.
6 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Nothing.
7 MAYOR CAPLAN: What we have is what we
8 have. So what about continuing this process with
9 the same standstill in place. The analogy, what
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Steve just said is -- I don't mind taking a step.
I would rather conclude it, but I don't mind
talking a step, but I don't want to kill this
possibility. So how can we save this possibility,
take a step?
MR. HELFMAN: You have done that before.
16 You have done it with the HR. You pass it on
17 first reading. You don't set a date for second
18 reading. It keeps it alive, but you leave
19 yourself the opportunity to continue to discuss
20 it.
21 If you take no action, it dies. If you
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want to keep the -- if you want to keep this
alive, you pass on it first reading. You don't
set a date for second reading, and it will take on
the life of the HR ordinance basically, which has
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just been perpetuated over time.
You can bring it up at any time, and set it
for second hearing if for some reason you feel
that you have come to a point where there is no
progress being made.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: It is first
reading.
MAYOR CAPLAN: It doesn't come back for
second reading, not because we pass it being
confident but because there is always something
that causes it to be deferred until called.
12 MR. HELFMAN: Yeah. It's first reading.
5 13
This is not the adoption we are hearing. If you
14 want to keep the possibility of this alive, then
15 you pass it on first reading, and just don't set a
16 second reading.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: Maybe that helps take 38
18 units and turn them into something less than 38
19 units, which I would favor.
20 But I want to tell you further --
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: It also gives a stick, a
22 carrot stick to the Silver Sands.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: I don't know. I have said
24 this a lot, and I wrestle with this. We have a
5 25
lot of problems and we identified them in various
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1 ways tonight. I am not sure that 38 additional
2 units is among them. I am not sure that that is
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not utterly against the question in the grand
scheme of things, but I think we all discern where
the community is on this whole grand problem of
being victimized by our own success even when we
7 live out here. The second homes that have turned
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into primary residence is a phenomena that we have
had for years, years, and years, and it's not
going to stop.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Shall we call it?
12 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Jim hasn't --
10 13
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Oh, Jim.
14 MAYOR CAPLAN: Go ahead.
15 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I have been trying
16 to speak for the last half an hour.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: He has been very polite.
18 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Good luck with
19 that.
20 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: You know, Steve,
21 you stole my thunder because I was going to point
22 out to council that this is just the first
23 reading. This ordinance does not pass tonight.
24 It doesn't become effective until after the second
25
reading.
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1 VICE MAYOR KELLY: We had a deadline when
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it was going to referendum. We don't have a
deadline any longer.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: That is correct.
5 Personally, you know, I think that we
6 should vote for this ordinance. I agree it's a
7 first step, but I also agree with the mayor. I
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don't want to close the door on the Silver Sands.
If there is some way we can pass this ordinance
and X out the Silver Sands, because this ordinance
affects every building on the east side of the
village, and, obviously, we are going to have to
address the left side. That is going to be
another story.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I hope so.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: But this is the
first step.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: And I think that we
20 ought to proceed, you know, and pass this
21 ordinance. I think Councilman Davey has a good
22 point. We probably need to do some additional
23 studies on it. That can be done between the first
24 and second reading.
111 25
It also will give us maybe
some time to deal with the Silver Sands, because,
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you know, their idea of a 40/40 or 40/38 split
where most of that 38 quote/unquote residential
units are really a hotel arrangement where we
really get a number of hotel units, not just
condominiums, I think that is something that
perhaps can be worked out.
So I say pass this on the first reading,
you know, and we will go from there.
9 MS. DUQUE: I apologize for interrupting,
10 but we need a motion to extend the meeting.
11 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Motion to adjourn.
12 MAYOR CAPLAN: There is an item that we
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have to hear tonight. Can we stay for 15 minutes?
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I make the motion.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Second.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Second.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: All in favor.
18 (All councilmembers responded aye.)
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MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you, sir.
Opposed.
Just a point of qualification. Okay? My
22 point is the reason to keep the Silver Sands
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proposition alive is because it may be a
meritorious proposition. We just heard about it
for the first time, but if it's not this
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1 proposition, I am not sure I feel the same way
2 about another proposition. So it's sort of this
3 proposition that is on the table, not another,
4 this.
5 And, secondly, we have had this standstill
6 agreement that I think by mutual sense has
7 expired. Will you continue it if we have this
8 continuing process between now and whatever
9 happens next?
10 MR. CUEVAS: Which means?
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Which means don't go seeking
a building permit for 62 units in residential.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Sixty-four.
COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Sixty-two.
15 MR. CUEVAS: Well, if the real effort here
16 is to induce a hotel in our site, why is it that
17 we need to extend more time? Vice Mayor Kelly
18 just said, actually, he just said he doesn't want
19 to see more, you, know words in the air. We
20 should proceed to, actually, to site plan. That
21 is what he wants to see, actually. You all want
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to see a site plan submitted so we can proceed.
MR. HELFMAN: He is suggesting that he
would come forward with a hotel, a joint hotel
apartment site plan.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is not what I
2 just heard. That is not what I heard. That is
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not at all what I heard.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Let him clarify.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Please do.
6 MAYOR CAPLAN: Carlos.
7 MR. CUEVAS: We have been talking about a
8 proposition of a mixed use hotel, 38 units
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residential and 40 hotel rooms. That is what I am
talking about.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Oh, okay. Now it
is clear.
MR. CUEVAS: I am sorry I wasn't clear.
MR. HELFMAN: That is exactly what he is
saying.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Okay. Good.
17 MR. HELFMAN: He doesn't want to be
18 precluded during this holding period from actually
19 acting on his commitment and bringing forward a
20 real project.
21 MAYOR CAPLAN: This project.
22 MR. HELFMAN: This project.
23 MR. CUEVAS: We are talking about the mixed
24 use. That is the only project. So far, I think
Ili 25
everything that we said that we were going to do
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1 we did, and that is what we are standing on.
2 MAYOR CAPLAN: We made progress.
3 MR. CUEVAS: Yes.
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Carlos, I thought
5 you were going to come with a contract.
6 MR. CUEVAS: What? What was that?
7 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I like things in
8 writing with signatures.
9 MR. CUEVAS: Yeah, but under this threat,
10 we can't do much to be honest. It is more of a
11 partnership and alliance with the city in order to
12 move forward. We just want to know your reaction,
5 13
and see if you really want -- I mean, we have our
14 concerns of property rights, and the whole
15 procedure, and being under threat. It has not
16 been easy for us.
17 MAYOR CAPLAN: This has not been an easy
18 process.
19 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Mr. Mayor, if I may, just
20 a point of clarification. Where are we in light
21 of what Carlos said? I just want to make sure in
22 terms of a standstill that there is a reciprocal
23 standstill.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: We are going to probably --
• 25
we are going to call this question. If this
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passes, my qualification on this, and I have one
other comment before we take the vote or question
before we take the vote, is that in some effective
way, whatever the words are, allow for the
possibility of this particular project that was
described tonight to continue to be negotiated. I
am still not happy with any units, and I'm trying
to work around that intellectual hurdle and
practical impediment for me.
We all, I think, had a favorable reaction
11 up to a point at least. The point being concerns
12 about additional residential density. So I think
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in sum what I would like to do is continue the
process that we have been on, and give this a
chance to come back before council with something
more tangible as a proposed final solution.
17 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Before we put to
18 the second reading.
19 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Correct. So I think just
20 to restate that, I think what we would like to do
21 is -- I think we can probably come back with a
22 development agreement that incorporates a project
23 that hopefully is acceptable. Probably need about
24 90 days to do that. So there would be a --
25 neither of these two ordinances would come back
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1 for a less than 90 days. However, if we had
2 something that we can move on before the 90 days,
3 we can bring that before the council in terms of a
4 development agreement.
5 Steve, does that make sense? So, in other
6 words, if the ordinances would not come back for
7 second reading for another 90 days, giving us
8 90 days to continue to work with the mayor, but if
9 before the 90 days we conceptualize a development
10 agreement that we all think mutually we can move
11 forward on, then we can bring it to council. Is
12 that a fair statement?
5 13
MAYOR CAPLAN: It's a fair statement. The
14 only thing I think would be also desirable as
15 progress is made, I would like to bring it back
16 for my colleagues and for the community generally,
17 so everybody can see where this is going.
18 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Absolutely.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: And if we just decided at
20 any point along the way that we are never going to
21 get there, then I think some advance notice would
22 be appropriate.
23 MR. HELFMAN: I think the way we ought to
24 proceed is that if either party at anytime over
5 25
the next 90 days determines that in their own
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discretion, determines that continued discussions
are just futile, that they provide 30 days notice,
and that they can take whatever actions they feel
are appropriate.
You can file an application. We can reset
the hearing, and we move forward. So that we
would just give each other a 30 day notice. We
are going to move forward, reset a hearing. They
are going to give us 30 days notice that they
intend to take whatever action they want, file an
application for it here, for a site plan or
whatever it is they feel they want to do.
MR. ECHEMENDIA: That works for us,
Mr. Mayor.
MAYOR CAPLAN: If the 30 days falls -- we
have a summer break. If the 30 days doesn't give
17 us time until our next regularly scheduled
18 meeting, I would like it to be 30 days or the next
19 regularly scheduled meeting, whatever happens
20 later, so we can have a meeting.
21 I don't anticipate this happening, but
22 rather a contingency plan.
23 MR. ECHEMENDIA: Understood. Your point is
24 well taken.
25 MR. HELFMAN: So we are talking about a 90
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1 day period in which we are going to continue to
2 work with the developer, and try to come up with a
3
development agreement, plan of development. I
4 would say a plan of development for the property,
5 a mutually agreeable plan of development.
6 If at any time either of the parties
7 determine that we are going nowhere, they can
8 provide the other party notice on 30 days if they
9 intend to abandon these discussions and go in
10 their respective ways.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: I think that is desirable
12 from my point of view.
5 13
MR. ECHEMENDIA: We are in agreement with
14 that.
15 MR. HELFMAN: I think that is fair.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: All right. My one
17 question --
18 MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: Moving along to the next is
20 the section not exceeding the limits established
21 in the zoning district regulations, except as
22 provided in the comp plan. We will get to the
23 clause about provided in the comp plan in a
24 second. As established in the district regs.
• 25
Does this say what we want it to say?
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Because what is established in the district regs
includes, for example, the alternative 16 units
3 per acre. So it's not what is established. It's
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what exists, what is built or what, you know.
What I am getting at is are we really protecting
the density cap that we think we are if we refer
to what is established in the district regs
because that is the very problem.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: That is the very
problem.
MR. HELFMAN: Wait, wait, wait.
You are doing what has all been done.
Understand, we haven't touched anything here.
Okay? This is not language we are touching.
Let's look at the density standard at seven.
Let's not go back and start messing with language
that is already in the code that we are not
dealing with.
We do this very often. I show you part of
an ordinance.
MAYOR CAPLAN: You are right. You are
22 right.
23 MR. HELFMAN: And you guys want to retweak
24 it. Okay? Let's just deal with paragraph seven.
25 Okay? No site plan shall be approved which would
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1 permit any development which would result in an
2 increase in residential density in excess of the
3 density previously approved for the subject
4 property by a valid development order.
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MAYOR CAPLAN: You have answered my
question.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay? That is the simple
thing we are doing.
MAYOR CAPLAN: You have answered my
question.
Any other comments?
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: No.
MR. HELFMAN: By the way, you are not the
14 only council that does this to me. I don't want
15 to show anything but just the little piece.
16 MAYOR CAPLAN: Let's do this.
17 MS. DUQUE: Roll call for the ordinance as
18 amended.
19 Councilmember Lindsay.
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yes.
21 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Taintor.
22 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Yes.
23 MS. DUQUE: Mayor Caplan.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: Yes.
• 25
MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Davey.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: No.
2 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Garcia.
3 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: No.
4 MS. DUQUE: Councilmember Gusman.
5 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: No.
6 MS. DUQUE: Vice Mayor Kelly.
7 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Yes.
8 MS. DUQUE: Motion carries.
9 MAYOR CAPLAN: Thank you all.
10 Manager, we have to get to your item.
11 MR. GILBERT: Mayor and council, if I may,
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sometimes success brings challenges and urgency in
this item that I wish to discuss tonight, and I
will be bringing forth a formal resolution on
Tuesday.
What has happened is we have been very
successful, and we are pretty close to completion
the beach renourishment project, but because the
system is just completed, it's a preconstruction
biological survey and the preconstruction beach
profiles, based on the results of these surveys,
there has been additional beach erosion since the
beach was designed utilizing the 2010 monitoring
24 data. Therefore, additional beach fill is
25 required.
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1 Concurrently, there have been changes in
2 the sea grass growth, which further require beach
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fill redesign.
Five percent contingency was included in
the original bid as to the construction contract
with the project as beach renourishment projects
are routinely adjusted due to the dynamic beach
8 environment. We brought this to you attention.
9
The original contract schedule value is
10 total $1,569,875. Unfortunately, that contingency
11 is being utilized for seaweed removal, and based
12 on the additional needed tonnage, we are
III 13 requesting, rather proposing 9700 more tons of
14 fill to fill the templates that are required to
15 complete the project. This is an increase to the
16 original contract value of $283,053.75. The
17 additional fill replacement would require
18 approximately five to eight working days and will
19 not or should not impact the 45 day construction
20 schedule that we are normally undergoing.
21 I am gong to have Tim Blankenship step
22 forward and give you a brief overview. I wanted
23 this out there now for discussion.
24 The meeting of July 3rd is extremely tight
25 with a lot of other important matters, but I
so
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wanted a discussion to take place now so you could
understand what the resolution would be to the new
proposal.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: Good evening, Mr. Mayor,
5 councilmembers, Tim Blankenship with Coastal
6 Systems International. I will be very brief here.
7 I know it has been a long night.
8 So far, I do know the trucks have been --
9 the project has been going very smoothly. We are
10 getting about a hundred trucks per day. Right
11 now, we have about 31,000 tons on the ground as of
12 Friday. There were no deliveries yesterday. So
• 13
we are still at around 31,000 tons.
14 Our total contract value is about
15 47,000 tons. We are very, very close to coming
16 into our contract tonnage by around Monday or
17 Tuesday of next week. That is the reason why it
18 is cutting
so close on this July meeting. So
19 we wanted to get some additional feedback from the
20 council on these additional quantities.
21 Another challenge I wanted to discuss with
22 the council is the ongoing seaweed. We have not
23 been receiving any complaints, any concerns from
24 residents or beach goers about the ongoing
• 25
construction operations. It has been a very safe
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operation. We haven't had any issues, no
complaints.
The village has received a lot of
4 complaints about the seaweed. Last week the
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seaweed, the buildup of the seaweed at the beach
started to impact the construction schedule.
There is so much seaweed we can't, the contractor
is not able to place fill in the surf zone such
that it was starting to impact the construction
10 schedule. We met with staff on Wednesday of last
11 week and authorized the contractor to bring in
12 additional equipment to supplement the universal
5 13
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tractor. So you may have seen a big dump truck
14 out there and heavy equipment loading up seagrass,
15 seaweed.
They worked through the weekend. Now
16 they are about caught up.
17 The village manager mentioned there was a
18 contingency, about five percent contingency
19 because the beach system is dynamic.
20 Unfortunately, more fill is required to complete
21 the beach and we have had to tack that contingency
22 for the additional work associated with the
23 seaweed. I talked to the contractor tonight
24 before the meeting. I think that we finished up
25 with the additional seaweed removal. By the way,
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1 in terms of the seaweed removal, Miami -Dade Parks
2 has been cooperative and very supportive of the
3 project. They have allowed the contractor to haul
4 the seaweed to the handling area. It's like a
5 recycling area there in Crandon Park. So that is
6 going very smoothly. Public Works has been
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working very, very carefully and closely with
Miami -Dade County on it.
So as the village manager said, based on
the surveys that we have done, we need about 9700
more tons and that is going to be increasing the
12 contract unit price to 283,000. We had about
5 13
$74,000 in the contingency. We are probably going
14 to eat up about 15,000 of that or so with the
15 seaweed removal. So that is about a net of about
16 $63,000 left. So hopefully, you know, the overall
17 net cost to the village is going to be around 240,
18 the net increase, depending on the final tonnage
19 that is actually used.
20 So we also are going through the permits.
21 We have had to initiate permit modifications. We
22 are about three quarters of the way through permit
23 modifications.
We have moved forward with that.
24 We hope to have those modifications next week. We
IP 25
are on a very, very tight time frame, and our firm
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1 has incurred additional costs of about $24,000 to
2 get those permits modified. The advantages of
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having the permits modified is you will have
permits out to akin to ten years for the 37,000
tons.
So, again, we are going to try to keep the
net increase of the project as low as possible to
around $240,000 over the 1.5 million contract.
So with that, I will open up to any
questions.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: What is the status
12 on the sand testing in the Sonesta, on the Sonesta
111
13 property because once if it's viable and it's
14 excavated, we are going to actually have to store
15 it. So if there is a doubt that in one year, is
16 it worth waiting?
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, in terms of the
18 unit cost right now --
19 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I thought there was
20 going to be sampling of the sand. Has that been
21 done yet?
22 MR. GILBERT: Yes, that is done, and it's
23 compatible with our beach sand.
Of course, that
24 subsurface reservoir, that will be sand and can be
ID 25
put on our beach.
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so
1 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: When is that
2 excavation projected for?
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MR. BLANKENSHIP: You mean when is it
supposed to start?
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yep.
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The last discussion we
7 had with Consultatio and their general contractor,
8 which is Coastal Construction, that might start
9 around September 2012.
10 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: This September.
11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes, it may.
12 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: May.
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MR. GILBERT: It has been pushed back a
14 number of times. It's not having difficulty.
15 It's just been pushed back.
16 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: No, no, that is
17 fine. I am just wondering, you know. I like to
18 be efficient.
19 MAYOR CAPLAN: Is it an opportunity?
20 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Is it an
21 opportunity?
22 VICE MAYOR KELLY: This is about a 20
23 percent cost overrun?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Additional. It's not
5 25
really an overrun, additional scope.
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1 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: I would like to
2 know how we can miss 100,000 tons.
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I feel like we are a
4 bait and switch almost. You know, they get in,
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and now we have to cough up some more money just
to finish it.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: A 100,000 tons is a
8 chunk of sand. It's costing us another $300,000.
9 Yes, maybe you can get it down to 240, but, I
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mean, that is a heck of a miscalculation, I am
sorry, no matter how you want to blame it.
I think Mayra's idea of why should we dole
out another $240,000 for a 100,000 tons of sand,
which I assume that amount of sand is available at
the Sonesta project, and if it's going to be
available come September --
17 MR. GILBERT: We are not talking a 100,000
18 tons of sand. All right? We are talking the
19 original was 45,000. We are having to put down an
20 additional just short of 10,000. That is item
21 one.
22 To do, and I can certainly support
23 anything, but logistically should this sand,
24 should it become available in September, then we
5 25
have to bring back the heavy equipment. We have
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to do everything that we are currently doing
within the scope of a separate contract just to
take that sand that they we are going to pull out
of the ground and put it in the staging area for
us now to spread onto the beach like you are
currently seeing.
So, overall, it will be somewhat more
8 expensive. I did not look into that. What I
9 looked into was keeping the same trucks under the
10 same timeline with the same equipment utilizing
11 the sand that we would have to purchase additional
12 to get here and get it out on the beach within the
111
13 ten or 15 days if council approves my
14 recommendation next Tuesday evening.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: What happens if we don't
16 approve?
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We stop the project
18 around Tuesday, and you will have a smaller beach.
19 MS. DUQUE: I apologize, we need another
20 motion.
21 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Motion to extend
22 another 15.
23 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Second.
24 MAYOR CAPLAN: Second.
• 25
All in favor.
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1 (All councilmembers responded aye.)
2 MAYOR CAPLAN: Opposed.
3 VICE MAYOR KELLY: When you say a smaller
4 beach, can you go into more detail about that?
5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, the larger area of
6 the beach is in the north area. Again, because
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the only survey data that we have to rely on for
the design was from the county in 2010.
Then, obviously, we did the updated
10 seagrass survey as well.
The combination of those
11 two resulted in the final design, which we are
12 trying to maximize as much sand as we can right
111
13 now while we have the contractor mobilized. We
14 always want to get as much sand on the beach as
15 possible.
16 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Where is this additional
17 sand going to go?
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mostly in the north area.
19 The seagrass line, which is seaward in the north
20 area, kind of north of the Ritz Carlton.
21 VICE MAYOR KELLY: By north, what is your
22 designation of north?
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: A little bit north of the
24 Ritz.
• 25
MAYOR CAPLAN: So Commodore to Key Colony
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1 roughly?
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Island House to kind of
3 Ritz.
4 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Before we started
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the project, I was notified by the president of
the Commodore that looked at the plan, and said,
Mayra, we are getting renourished, and they kind
of just from --
MR. GILBERT: No, there was a reason for
10 that and that was explained to them regarding the
11 seagrass and the amount of sand. I met with them.
12 I met with them, and that was explained.
5 13
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: I guess it was
14 explained to them but not to me.
15 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I actually went down
16 there Sunday behind Oceana, and the sand seemed
17 deeper, but it didn't really seem like it went
18 that much further towards the water than it did
19 before.
20 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: The problem is,
21 Mike, is the seagrass. By the way, that has
22 invaded us so far in. I mean, growth, I think, I
23 think it's 12 inches per year, the penetration of
24 that, and we cannot put any more sand.
• 25
VICE MAYOR KELLY: Is that sand, this
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additional sand just going to go to make the beach
deeper or is it actually going to extend the
beaches further into the water?
4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We can't raise the
5 elevation. Elevation is set by the permits. So
6 we are going to go a little bit further down the
7 slope into the water and extend.
8 VICE MAYOR KELLY: It sounds like you can
9 go further.
10 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: Yes, but to a
11 certain extent. We cannot go as far as we wanted
12 to or we wished to and we had before.
5 13
VICE MAYOR KELLY: I am trying to
14 understand the impact of the sand.
15 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: I had the same sort
16 of, right there, at Oceana, right behind the
17 walkout and it seemed higher. You know, again,
18 this is one of those nights where the sargasso was
19 all the way up, where it was just blowing. It's
20 crazy when the sargasso is out there right now.
21 But, yeah, a couple of people have
22 commented the same thing, that they didn't see --
23 VICE MAYOR KELLY: A little underwhelming.
24 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Yeah, but at the same
• 25
time it is noticeable how much more sand there is,
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and I think if you pile it high enough, I am not a
beach expert, but maybe that will assist us in
3 keeping the beach a little longer. I don't know.
4 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: John, how much do
5 you think it would cost to remobilize the beach
6 equipment to spread the sand coming from the
7 Sonesta. Obviously, we don't have the cost of
8 trucks transporting it from central Florida. All
9 we have is the cost of remobilizing that equipment
10 to spread the sand from the Sonesta to --
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VICE MAYOR KELLY: Really, that is a case
of the sand.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Because it's
$300,000.
MR. BLANKENSHIP: If I can just clarify
16 real quick. The sand quality testing results that
17 you see, it is beach compatible, that upper layer
18 they are going to be excavating, but the silt
19 content is higher. The silt is anywhere from five
20 to eight percent.
21 So the contractor that is going to be
22 handling that material actually has to set up a
23 portable wash plan to get the silt down less than
24 five percent which is in the permit requirements.
25 So there is going to be a cost associated with
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mobilizing that wash plan, getting the wash plan
up to running, and then actually handling,
screening, washing the sand.
The additional mobilization cost, the line
item right now is about $50,000 to get the
6 equipment profile, a similar equipment profile
7 that is out there now; the off -road trucks, the
8 dozer, and the front-end loader.
9 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: So you are saying
10 than other than having to get the silt out, that
11 the additional cost to remobilize it, the
12 equipment, is only 50,000 and we are looking at
111
13 300,000?
14 COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: Yeah.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The line item is 50,000
16 for mobilization.
17 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Where would $300,000
18 come from?
19 MR. GILBERT: When the project was first
20 put to CIP about a few years back, we were looking
21 at a much larger project. A year and a half ago,
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this council chose to go with the smaller option.
We had money set aside. We actually had more
money than we anticipated we would need for this
project, and currently I still have $669,000,
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1 659,000 that I can use for the remaining part of
2 the beach renourishment project. That is only
3 because we had drawn and put aside money for a
4 more larger project, and we just went with the
5 smaller one back then with the anticipation that
6 we would be doing three events over the next ten
7 years.
8 MAYOR CAPLAN: Are we still planning on
9 sandbagging out of Sonesta?
10 MR. GILBERT: Yes. Yes, sir.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: Does that factor into this
12 cost benefit decision, because we are going to be
13 making sand out of Sonesta anyway if the timing is
14 right?
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: On the Sonesta sand, we
16 have estimated from the initial study that there
17 is about 50,000 yards, plus or minus. There has
18 been some discussion saving a certain amount of
19 sand for their -- they are trying to do an area
20 for their beach. What we have not been able to
21 find out right now is they are using a special
22 grouting method, a chip grouting method to
23 actually create the storing walls. We don't know
24 how much of that sand within -- you can just
25 picture a bathtub. Okay? We don't know how much
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of the sand is being -- I don't want to use the
word contaminated, but affected by that jet
grouting that you actually have a drill and then
it jets out gravel at very, very high pressures.
It mixes with the sand to kind of create this
6 concrete wall per se. We don't know how much
7 inside that bathtub now is still going to be beach
8 compatible. It's very, very new technology that
9 is being utilized there. We don't have any
10 information. We just, you know, as the trucks
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arrive, we just observe some of the operations.
You will see the cement silos, the cement trucks,
and things like that.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: What would be the
estimates as to how much? Do we have any
16 estimates as to how much it would be?
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Not right now.
18 VICE MAYOR KELLY: We have a 20 million
19 dollar school board payment coming up. I
20 personally would rather see us hold back on the
21 money if we can.
22 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: And stop this
23 project?
24 VICE MAYOR KELLY: I don't want to spend
111 25 another $300,000, specially if we can spend 50 and
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1 use the sand at the Sonesta.
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MS. DUQUE: I apologize. We need another
motion to extend.
MAYOR CAPLAN: We have until 11:30.
5 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Yeah, we went to
6 11:30.
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MS. DUQUE: Oh, it's 15 minutes. I
apologize.
COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: Here it is July,
10 August. We are talking two to three months.
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COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: We are talking about
the summer.
Anyhow, let's call the question.
14 MAYOR CAPLAN: Well, remember, as the
15 manager just said, we budgeted this three years
16 ago. We under spent per budget because we shrunk
17 the project.
18 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Could we have some
19 harder numbers by Tuesday as to how much it will
20 cost if we do this, if we go with the Sonesta
21 sand, the Oceana sand. I want to get this going,
22 but I think we have to be --
23 COUNCILMEMBER TAINTOR: The question is is
24 there enough sand? That is another thing.
5 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: There will be some.
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Whether it's the 40 or 50,000 yards, I mean, what
we can do is we can try to call --
3 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Forty or 50,000
4 yards?
5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: In the bathtub --
6 COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: How much is that in
7 tons? Because we are getting tons. It sounded
8 like you are getting metric on me.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's about 1.4. So there
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is still about 80, 70,000.
COUNCILMEMBER LINDSAY: We need better
numbers.
MAYOR CAPLAN: So what do you need from us
14 tonight? You need direction?
15 MR. GILBERT: No. This was just to get it
16 out. Because I didn't want to tie up a lot of
17 discussion, but I will, based on the feedback,
18 will get some additional information for you.
19 COUNCILMEMBER GARCIA: But the project
20 isn't being stopped.
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, no, no, it's not
22 being stopped.
23 MAYOR CAPLAN: So we are going to carry the
24 rest of the agenda. We are going to carry the
111 25 rest of the agenda.
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Thank you.
Motion to adjourn.
COUNCILMEMBER DAVEY: Move.
MS. HUBER: The HR, the item will come back
in two weeks?
MR. HELFMAN: We need to continue the HR
item also.
MAYOR CAPLAN: Anybody second?
9 COUNCILMEMBER GUSMAN: Second.
10 VICE MAYOR KELLY: Second.
11 MAYOR CAPLAN: All those in favor.
12 (All councilmembers responded aye.)
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MAYOR CAPLAN: Opposed.
14 Adjourned. (Thereupon, the proceedings were
15 adjourned at 11:25 p.m.)
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1 CERTI FICATE
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5 I, Mary G. Stephenson, FPR, State of Florida at
6 Large, certify that I was authorized to and did
7 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and
8 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
9 stenographic notes.
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11 Dated this 17th day of July, 2012.
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Mary G. S'tep`i`ienson, FPR
TAYLOR REESE AND ASSOCIATES, INC.
(305) 444-7331