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HomeMy Public PortalAbout1997/03/03 A Special Meeting of the Mayor and Council of the Borough of Carteret was called to order by Mayor Peter J. Sica at 6:30 P.M., on Thursday, March 3, 1997, 61 Cooke Avenue, Carteret, New Jersey 07008. Upon individual roll call vote, the following were noted present: Councilmember Bialowarczuk " DuPont " Failace " Fazekas " Feingold " Gutowski Also noted present were Attorney Craig Coughlin, Architect John Wanskus and Attorney Mike Bruno. The Clerk stated that on February 28,1997, in full compliance with the Open Public Meetings Act, a notice of tonight's meeting was sent to The Home News & Tribune, The Star-Ledger, and posted on the bulletin board. The purpose of the meeting was to adopt a Resolution to go into Closed Session to discuss potential litigation. RESOLUTION #97-78 was introduced by the Mayor and referred to the Council for action. Upon MM&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Fazekas RESOLUTION #97-78 "RESOLUTION TO GO INTO CLOSED SESSION" was adopted. Upon individual roll call, Councilmembers Bialowarczuk, DuPont, Failace, F¡fì~r:"'" Feingold and Gutowski voted in the affirmative. At approximately 6:32 P.M. a Closed Session was held. Mayor Sica told Mr. Wanskus the reason he is here was that the Council was not happy with the Library and they were prepared to take the contract from him unless he could (inaudible). MARCH 3, 1997 SPECIAL flEET ING ROLL CALL STATEMENT OF MEETING NOTICE RESOLUTION g97-7! RESOLUTI ON TO GO INTO CLOSED SESSION ADOPTED DISCUSSION MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTINUED Michael Bruno, partner in the law firm of Giordano, (inaudible) and was here on behalf ofMr. Wanskus. He said he echoed the sentiments of the Council on getting the project complete he said Mr. Wanskus was here with a proposal the Council would be happy with that required some clear time frames. He said he would be making a commitment and if he did not meet the time frames he would bear the consequences. He said he understood that the Council wanted the Library to be built, as did Mr. Wanskus because he spent a large part of the last two years on the project and has not done other work to try and complete this project. He said there has been an ongoing dispute with Mr. Wanskus's Engineer regarding this project. He said as a result of that the Engineering plans are not complete and the Architect plans are complete and have been completed for some time. John Wanskus said he had a meeting with the Council at the Borough Hall in January 21, 1997 and at that time he was asked about the status of the project. He said at that time he told the Mayor and Council that the Architectural portion of the job was complete and revised but the engineering portion which constituted the structural, electrical, and mechanical, plumbing and fire protection drawings had to be revised by his project engineer. He said his project engineer has been very difficult to deal with especially during the last several months. He said he has been doing everything within his power to have this man perform. He said both legal counsel have been in contact. He said this has put him into a very precarious situation with the Borough, not Mr. Saperstein who is his proj ect engineer. He said at this point Mr. Saperstein has continued to interfere with his client the Borough instead of performing his work. He said in trying to resolve this as best he could as he had stated at the meeting, he was given an ultimatum on record that ifhis engineer did not perform he should fire him and get someone else to do it. He said he fired him from the advice of the Council because he did not want to breach his contract with the Borough. He said he went with another engineering firm he knew and had two meetings to discuss the project with them page by page all the documents. He said they reviewed everything and were going to put a proposal together for him. He said it took them two and a half weeks to put a proposal together which was dated February 13th and they said they would perform the work. He said they had a meeting on February 18th with three of the Councilmembers to review the status of the engineering work. He said he brought the owner and the proj ect engineer James Anderson into the meeting with himself and his attorney and he told them this was the new engineer of his choice. He said they said they were able to proceed with their work with the architectural drawings. He said they said as they went forward with the project when the drawings were in a state of completion for contract bidding and construction. He said if there any problems which had to be resolved between the architectural drawings and the engineering drawings while developing the details they would work together and work out the details, which is how professionals are supposed to work. He said if the engineer had questions of the architect, the architect performs that and if the architect has problems with the engineer does what he says. He said that is an inner working relationship but has not had that with Mr. Saperstein. He said he felt if Mr. Saperstein was a professional he would work to his contractual obligations. He said Saperstein is to perform a set of documents, which can be reviewed and approved by the Borough to go out to bid, and he has not. He said he felt Mr. Saperstein has only caused 2 problems instead of doing his work and has blamed him continuously to the point where his credibility is lost and no one has any confidence in him. He said he was the same person as he was when he started this project and as professional as he has been. He said he has been doing work in the Borough and work is going forward in the Sports Complex and felt he was capable of doing and has delivered a project with notoriety. He said this is a project with an eloquent design, which is very sound from a programming standpoint and meets all the criteria an architect has to do in his career. He said it makes sense in a site plan, a space (inaudible) relationship, the users needs. He said nothing in the set of drawings could be disputed. He said if someone questions the studs this would be small intricacies and they would be resolved at that point before they go to bid. He said if the Borough Engineer wanted something changed, he did it. He said Mr. Palmar had comments on five pages of the specifications and he changed those five pages, gave it back to Mr. Palmar and he accepted it and said everything was fine. He said he never denied doing one aspect of anything of what anyone told him. He said everyone was aware of what he was doing and he was in contact with his client and had correspondence. He said he had a daily journal which he averaged two meetings per week in the Borough of Carteret during the process of doing this Library proj ect in regard to doing revisions that were requested which were completed in the Borough's building department. He said he started July 15th and continued working in the Borough of Carteret through August 9th every day. He said he worked with Mr. DiFrancesco on the third floor of the Borough Hall. He said there is no architect in this state that would work outside his office, but he did because he is committed. He said this was done because he was asked to do it, it did interfere with scheduling and other proj ects he had which he had to put on hold. He said he did it for the satisfaction of Mr. DiFrancesco and the Library Director Ms. Pearl. He said the architectural work was completed October 2, 1996 with the revisions. He said after he performed on May 22 with a set of substantially complete drawings. He said the drawings on the twenty second of May were then revised during the summer and completed October 2, 1996. He said at that point the engineer, Mr. Saperstein was supposed to perform his engineering revisions. He said Mr. Saperstein was given a letter from him on October 28th with all the changes that were made and Mr. Saperstein refused to do the changes. He said Mr. Saperstein was on notice to do these changes and did not perform for the last five months. He said he has not seen a set of drawings Mr. Saperstein since he submitted his drawings on May 22, 1996 and those are the same drawings he prepared and submitted April 4, 1996. He said one month from tomorrow would April 4th and the last time Mr. Saperstein worked on his drawings and felt with that non-performance, he chose not to work with Mr. Saperstein. He said he felt Mr. Saperstein's track record was that he has not gone forward to complete what he was obligated to do under Mr. Wanskus's contract, instead he has created difficulties for him, slanderous remarks which he would not tolerate from anyone. He said he has not defamed Mr. Saperstein or stated that his work is not complete but has stated that his work is not complete maybe once, but has not defamed anyone in this case. He said he felt he is the one who is being defamed. He said he proposed to complete this project he would work with James Anderson who he has the confidence in being a very professional company and had their resume for the Council to review. He went on to tell the Council some of Mr. Anderson's attributes. He said Mr. Anderson 3 MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTI NUED lARCH 3, 1997 II SCUSS I ON :ONTI NUED stated to him they would complete this work in seven to eight weeks and he believed that this would happen. He said he believed their quality of work would be such that there would be limited amount of problems when the bidding phase is initiated on this project. He said when a project goes to bid it must be precise, if there are any discrepancies the contractors can not issue a bid. He said this has to have complete cooperation between professionals to happen. He said someone could not high-ball a bid twenty percent higher just because the information is not on the plan, it has to be issued with the exact information that is on the plan as a basis of them establishing their price. He said if the plans are not of that quality and he felt Mr. Saperstein's plans are not of that quality in his professional opinion as well as Mr. Anderson's professional opinion after reviewing Mr. Saperstein's drawings. He said the drawings need to be precise, the drawings, which were done by Mr. Anderson, are done on computers and are all cad drawings, which are very clear and concise. He said James Anderson is a company that does a lot of Municipal work and a lot of public bidding work and is very familiar with the industry. He said James Anderson just completed the Municipal project for (inaudible) township where they were the project engineers. He said they have the experience to put the drawings with his together to make the package they determine necessary to go to bid. He said everyone has been waiting since September 21, 1995, when the Resolution was passed and felt in his heart he has delivered what he said he could. He said the only part of his work that was not delivered at this point were the engineering drawings and felt he should not be penalized or crucified to the point of not having performed this for the Borough as his client. He said he has done his hardest to do what he was asked to do and go forward with the engineer he selected to bring into the project. He said to hear that Mr. Saperstein is now given the opportunity to go forward and complete the project without him is asinine. He said he was the author and owner of the drawings with regard to design (inaudible) not Mr. Saperstein who was given the design by him. He said he was the one who created this from his own ideas and should be given the opportunity to complete what I said he could. He said he felt without Mr. Saperstein the project would go smoothly and forward rapidly and out to bid and built the way it was on the plan. He said if Mr. Saperstein is involved in the project and the Council decides to hire him by Resolution to complete the work. He said Mr. Saperstein could do the work ifhe started over with a new design but he assured the Council he would not deliver as he said he could. He said in four weeks at thirty thousand dollars this set of drawings would save the Borough a hundred thousand dollars that Mr. Saperstein claimed to do but felt that is an impossibility he felt this would not happen with this project. He is he is confident he could do the job and has experience no thinks he does have and is a very experienced architect. He said in Carteret he has done over one hundred projects in the last five years of all sizes, the four hundred and four thousand square foot UPS Building is his project that is right behind the Library and he had no difficulties. He went on to list different buildings and their varying sizes he has done with no difficulties and were they were located and said the Building Department could attest to that because he has received building permits and had his drawings on file for everything he has done including the Sports Complex. He said the Sports Building is almost done but there are some minor changes he reviews with the Building Department and gets the approvals in no more than seven days from 4 Mr. Pahnar per the contract. He said he does not and has never delayed on anything. He said the Sports Field was done, the lighting was done, the grading of the Soccer Field was done. He said he has performed for the Borough of Carteret and has a track record with the Borough and lives in Carteret but Mr. Saperstein has no track record or projects in the Borough but the Council believes whatever Mr. Saperstein says. He said he knew Mr. Saperstein was older than him and might have more experience in years than himself but he has more licenses than Mr. Saperstein does. He said he could create this project without Mr. Saperstein and could seal and do the engineering drawing because he has a letter from the Board of Architects stating that he could do that. He said Mr. Saperstein could not complete this project without him as the architect. Michael Bruno said one of the issues of confusion was the amount paid to Mr. Wanskus on this project together with the Sports Facility and the Marina Project. He said he has put together an outline of payments made by the Borough to date and how they were applied which he passed out to the Mayor and Council. He said he felt this was helpful because with the Library Project only some twenty thousand dollars was paid which was part of the reason for the delay on Mr. Saperstein's part. He said Mr. Saperstein claims he has not been paid and he refuses to perform as leverage to get additional payments. He said he has tried to request additional payments from the Borough, which have not been forthcoming. He said he understood the Borough's position because they would want to see finished plans before they let go of any further money. He said at this point with the plans before the Mayor and Council he felt it was reasonable and pursuant to the contract that additional monies be released to pay the engineer to complete the work. He said they would be agreeable to putting the money in escrow to only be released upon the Borough's approval of the engineering plans so they would be certain the money would not be released to anyone but the engineer and until the plans are complete to their satisfaction. He said at this juncture he felt it was important to note that only twenty three thousand five hundred dollars was applied to the Library Project. He said the other message he felt Mr. Wanskus wanted to convene this evening was that he was open to discussing this with the Borough in terms of what they would like by way of assurances Mr. Wanskus could give them to be happy and they could proceed with him as the architect. He said they are willing to give assurances in terms of timing or whatever else that would be reasonable so they would be satisfied they are making the right choice going forward. Mayor Sica said all the talking is a waste of time because they did not want to hear Mr. Wanskus's problems were with Mr. Saperstein or what Mr. Saperstein's problems are with Mr. Wanskus all they want is the finished product. He said we had no contract with Mr. Saperstein what so ever. He said Mr. Saperstein has called him over a hundred times yet he has not returned his calls because he has no reason to talk to him. He said all he knows is they were promised a finished project over and over and has not gotten it which is the problem. He said it could not continue this way. Michael Bruno said they do not disagree with the Mayor and they are proposing to hire a new architect to complete this project in eight weeks time. He said the Borough has to acknowledge that Mr. 5 MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTI NUED MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTINUED Saperstein has not completed the engineering drawings and Mr. Wanskus has submitted architectural drawings, which they have in front of them. He said there is outstanding engineering work that needs to be done and Mr. Wanskus's contractor Mr. Saperstein has not performed and they have terminated him and they would be proceeding with Mr. Anderson's company. Mayor Sica said again Mr. Saperstein's contention is that the architectural drawings are not complete enough to do the engineering work and this or that is not right, he said that is not the Mayor and Council's problem all they want is a finished product. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said they are now talking about waiting another seven or eight weeks they were supposed to have these things out to bid and felt this was another promise. Michael Bruno said he knew but all they could do is make a promise at this point. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said none of the promises have been kept until this point. Michael Bruno said they have asked the Council to give them one more opportunity to let them perform, it is a sophisticated project. Mayor Sica said four or five weeks ago when they had the meeting Mr. Wanskus said he could complete this project by March 15th provided he has "X" amount of dollars to pay for an engineer. He said they would have drew him up a check the next day morning payable to the engineer, not Mr. Wanskus to get the work going and the Borough would have a finished product. He said they waited until some time in February at a progress meeting to find out that they can not do it because they do not have the money to pay the engineer. He said he does not want to hear they are going to try to do it but they could not do it. He said if that was what was necessary the professional thing to is tell the client you need "X" amount of dollars up front to complete this project and give a guarantee of this, this and this. He said that would have been no problem at that point in time. He said to wait a whole month and then say they need "X" amount of dollars is the kind of stuff that aggravates him. He said they understand there are problems on every job and somewhere along the line they have to change something. He said they changed the roof design on the Sports Building just to save twenty or thirty thousand dollars. He said they are going to change things on the Library too, they may not put the mezzanine in which he has discussed with Mr. Wanskus when they were designing it they designed it to put it in or not put it in; the same with the clock tower. He said they would base these things on the cost of things and they know the cost would not be exactly what they put in the budget and if they want something they would have to pay for it. He said he wants them to show the Borough what they could get for this amount of dollars and they would tell him what they want and do not want. He said that is all they want and is all they have ever wanted. He said he did not feel anyone on this Council would have voted against putting up the money to hire an engineer to replace Mr. Saperstein. He said the Council does not care if Mr. Saperstein or Mr. Anderson does the work or even Councilmember DuPont does the work they could care less as long as the work is done. 6 MARCH 3, 1997 Michael Bruno said he could assure the Mayor that Mr. Wanskus wants it done and the only reason they did not request money specifically a month ago is because they are so far down the end of the road with this project and plans that they were hoping Mr. Saperstein would complete the plans knowing he would be paid when he was done. DISCUSSION CONTINUED Mayor Sica said" Mike, you live in hope, you die hopeless." Michael Bruno said when you have professionals you hope they do what they are contractually obligated to do. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said if he knew right away that Mr. Saperstein was not going to do it Mr. Wanskus should not have sat on it. Michael Bruno said he could assure Councilmember Bialowarczuk as the attorney on this matter this was not sat on. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said she listened to the attorney the other night who said exactly that. Michael Bruno assured her they are working on this everyday. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said now it is the same law firm, two different attorneys, both are saying two different things. Mayor Sica said they have two different things they have to decide tonight, do they want to continue with Mr. Wanskus and put the money up for the engineer and that is all. Michael Bruno said the Mayor has to understand something, that Mr. Wanskus owns the plans. Mayor Sica said that could be decided in the courts. He said as far as he is concerned who owns the plans at this point is irrelevant. He said Carteret is not looking to beat Mr. Wanskus out of his share of the profit or loss he would be making on this job. He said they have never had the intention to hire Mr. Saperstein for thirty thousand dollars and save the rest of the money that is not Carteret's intention or never would be. He said the town is not in the business of hurting anyone. He said they have no problem paying Mr. Wanskus his contractual price based on the performance of his work. He said they are not saying because he took so long they would fine him or penalize him "X" amount of dollars all they are looking to do is get a finished product. He said Mr. Wanskus has to assure him tonight that if they advance the money to Anderson and pay him directly if necessary to complete the job. He said Mr. Wanskus could continue as the architect of record until the project is completed and he did not want to change in mid stream that would be the last resort. He said if there is no other choice that would be the resort they would take or they could go to court to argue over who owns the drawings. He the town would rather spend money on books than lawyers. 7 MARCH 3, 1~91 DISCUSSION CONTI NUED Michael Bruno said Mr. Wanskus wants to perform and asked Mr. Wanskus to give the Mayor and Council his assurance that he would perform. Borough Attorney Coughlin said based on the conversation they had there is some question as to whether the architectural portion of the drawings is done. He said Mr. Saperstein has indicated he can not complete the drawings because he claims they are not done Mr. Wanskus claims that he believes they are done. He said the threshold question in that area is the Mayor and Council has to decide if they believe that they are satisfactorily completed. Mayor Sica said he felt part of it is and Mr. Wanskus touched on it is in practicality, those are the architectural drawings. He said when the engineer takes the drawings there may be a reason to make changes and that does happen to everyone. He said in theory the drawings are done in practicality if changes have to be made that is an architect's responsibility who at this time would be Mr. Wanskus. He said if they took the job from Mr. Wanskus an architect and an engineer still have to work hand in hand together to get the total completed product. Borough Attorney Coughlin said presumably Mr. Saperstein is familiar with that working relationship and when he says it is not completed he believed it is not completed to a point where he could do that and there is the refinement process which brings it ultimately to the point where it goes out to bid. He said his observation is they need to decide if they want to change streams in regard to the engineer or if they are going to go forward. Mayor Sica asked Mr. Wanskus if when he met with Anderson did Anderson say he could work with these drawings and get the job completed. John Wanskus said they lead us to believe they took a very preliminary look and he had the impression they did not understand the total scope until they sat down with the Council and they were talking about the project and they were some things they did not know. Michael Bruno said he got a letter from them today and they have indicated that based on their preliminary review of the documents provided they could provide adequate details to enable them to complete the engineering to complete a finalized set of documents. He said they believe that the documents are in shape enough to complete their drawings within their timeline and no one is saying that Mr. Wanskus is ... Councilmember Fazekas interrupted to say there is a punch list that also has to do with it, they do not have a punch list. He said they sent that over but they have to redo the punch list. John Wanskus said Councilmember Fazekas was talking about the engineering punch list, they are aware ofthe engineering punch list. Councilmember Fazekas said they did not seem to be aware of it that night. John Wanskus said they were not aware of it that night. 8 Councilmember Fazekas asked if they reviewed the punch list. John Wanskus said the comments on the punch list- the engineering drawings. . . Councilmember Fazekas said he really did not want to hear it because he was very upset over this and wanted to withdraw his question. Mayor Failace said it was a good question and he should not withdraw it. Councilmember Fazekas was noted absent 7:10 P.M. Mayor Sica said if there were a punch list out there they would have to be assured that Anderson has not looked at it. He asked what the comments were on it. John Wanskus said the comments on the punch list were reviewed with Mr. Anderson's company. He said the comments that were on the punch list were from the Building Department which came when the Building Department reviewed the drawings May 14, 16 and May 17'h. He said there were four reports from Mr. Greenberg, Mr. Neibert, Mr. Rosinski and Mr. DiFrancesco the four subcode officials who reviewed the plans. He said Mr. Saperstein was to complete those items, he did see those items complete on his plans. He said Mr. Saperstein did say he did complete them but he did not see them. He said the items on the punch list were reviewed with Mr. Anderson's company, James C. Anderson who said this is no more than normal to have a punch list and those items will be corrected prior to submitting the drawings in a completed set to go out to bid. He said they actually have a head start on this, they actually know what the items on the punch list are before they start their work. He said as far as them being in the dark; they are not in the dark. Councilmember DuPont asked if our engineer, Mr. Palmar (inaudible) to the architectural drawings or not, he has a bunch of comments and questions about this. Mayor Sica said what Mr. Palmar is talking about is the drawings that are architectural drawings and they can not go out to bid now because the engineering is not done on them. Councilmember DuPont said he did not say besides the engineering documents, the architectural (inaudible) John Wanskus said he had Mr. Palmar's whole punch list, this set of drawings is architectural. He said when he wrote the letter to Mr. Palmar who is an engineer; he told him in letter form that he should review the engineering drawings, not the architectural drawings. He said he felt the architectural drawings should be reviewed by Mr. DiFrancesco, the Construction Official, who would review the drawings and say if someone would get the permit or not. He said he could call Mr. DiFrancesco down here right now who is at home and had spoke to him earlier today in his office. He said he would testify they could get a building permit on these architectural drawings right now. He said this is a man with a license, which he felt he would not put his license on the line for anyone. He said Mr. DiFrancesco he 9 MARCH 3. 1997 DISCUSSION (CONTINUED) "lARCH 3- 1997 could give them a permit on this to build this building just the way it is with the code map. He said he said the reason he could issue the project to go to bid is that he did not have the engineering drawings. Mayor Sica said, as of late today that is what Ralph DiFrancesco told him, architecturally the drawings are 99 percent complete. He said except when the engineering drawings are complete there may have to be a movement of a stud here. . . Councilmember DuPont said he did not get that impression from Borough Engineer, Mr. Palmar. Mayor Sica said he did not understand why Mr. Palmar was even involved in the architectural. Councilmember DuPont they have to rely on who ever they had. . . DISCUSSION (CONTINUED) Mayor Sica interrupted to say, there is no doubt about it, he is a tremendously smart man, but felt Mr. Palmar is overlooking the thing about the engineer. He said he felt Mr. Palmar should concentrate on engineering which is his forte and architecturally the Building Department is the department who says architecturally it is the way it is supposed to be to comply with the building codes. He said today the Council read the letter from Mr. Neibert on the electrical and him wanting to take all the power out of the building. He said he had Mr. DiFrancesco look at the building today and brought him the (inaudible) and code. He said the wiring is perfect but Mr. Neibert has had the job shut down for a week for what he felt was stupidity because he did not read the code. He felt Mr. Neibert should worry about did they build this according to the electrical drawings, which he had the right to look at the Planning review but never brought anything up at the Planning review. He said now you want him to put it in and now you tell him to take it out. Councilmember DuPont said Mr. Palmar had a lot of good input as far as (inaudible) your spec (inaudible) and had a lot of comments. John Wanskus said those comments were all changed and there weren't that many changes. Councilmember DuPont said it seemed like a lot of sticky notes through out the. . . John Wanskus said yellow tabs Councilmember DuPont said during this project and he knew he wasn't here for most of it. He asked how many times were there cost estimates and there was some confusion about how much the project was supposed to be. Unidentified Voice said it is in the basic service agreement contract. John Wanskus said the one thing he would ever state to anyone is fact. He said because if you state fact you can not be proven a liar; only fact, that is the only thing that will come out of his mouth is fact. He said good or bad, he would not make himself look good and lie. He said to make me look good at someone else's expense, he will not do 10 MARCH 3- 1997 that which he would consider as a liar. He said he is not a liar, he would always state fact. He said with regard to the cost of the building when he first started this project a major concern of everyone's is that everyone knows the project will cost more than allocated by the Borough. He said they don't know exactly how much until the bids come back. He said in his contract which is a standard contract with an owner; Architect Bl41 Document that states on the firs page the three projects he is doing, the size of the buildings which was told to him for the programming of approximately a twenty thousand square feet Library, fifteen thousand square foot Senior Community Center. He said with regard to construction costs there is an article in the contract that states and went on to quote the contract the Council read along with him. He said evaluation of the owner's project budget preliminary estimates of construction costs and detailed estimates of construction costs if any prepared by the architect represent the architect's best judgement as a design professional familiar with the construction industry. He said it is recognized that neither the architect nor the owner has control over the cost of labor, materials or equipment over the contractor's methods of determining bid prices or over competitive bidding market or negotiating conditions. He continued to read the contract as the Mayor and Council followed along and quoted various sections of what the architect was required to do. Architect John Wanskus stated ...(inaudible)... equipment, component systems and types of constructions are to be included in the contract documents. He said to make reasonable adjustments in the sculpt of the project and to include the contract documents, alternate bids to adjust the construction cost to the fixed limit. He said he was given the size of the building from the first day and that is why it was in this contract, 20,000 sq. feet for the Library and 15,000 sq. feet for the Senior Center. He said he designed this building 20,015 sq. feet actually it became, with revision, 20,000 plus a mezzanine of three which can be taken away. He said it would be 16,000 sq. feet for the Senior Center because of the occupant load and the assembly room with the stage required and extra 1000 sq. feet and that is why it is 16,000.00. He said the Clock Tower was added as a design for the history of Carteret, which you can delete if you want, and the reflecting pool out front as a sense of design can be deleted as well. He said at no point was a fix limit for the budget of this project installed in this contract. He said this was the reason why he did not design for a cost. He said it was told to him, if the project exceed the amount made available, more money would be given. He said that is what was told to him as the architect. RE: LIBRARY/ SENIOR COMMUNITY CENTER Mayor Sica stated this was provided if the plan met everyone's need. Architect John Wanskus stated exactly. Councilmember Stan Gutowski said in Article 2.5 says the architect has to submit to the owner a preliminary estimate of construction cost based on the current area volume of other human cost. Councilmember DuPont said also in Article 2.43said Architect shall advise the owner of any adjustments to previous preliminary estimates or construction cost, any kind of change. Mayor Sica said he feels that cost can not be given until the drawing are done. 11 MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION (CONTINUED) Architect Wanskus said he did notify. .. He asked the Council to listen to one thing he has to say about this. He said they are right about ... (inaudible)...schematic design phase and design development phase. He said in those two phases he did changes to the building program. He said the changes he did were namely were the mezzanine, clock tower, and the reflecting pool at that point. He said these were before the construction. ..(inaudible)... was even started during the first two phases. He said he has a letter in his file, which stated these are going to increase the cost of construction. By how much he does not know. He said the reason is because the mezzanine had to increase the height of the building by approximately 4 feet as Mayor Sica knows. He said he did not have enough height. He stated he had the original set of drawing which were presented to the governor, when she came in September 22 or 23, 1997 at the White Rose Building and he said he has a copy of the presentation boards which he made and they did not have the mezzanine. He said the addition of the mezzanine-added cost and the Borough was alerted to that fact. He asked the Council if they wanted a copy of the letter because he could provide a copy of the correspondence Councilmember DuPont stated.. . (inaudible). .. received a memo from Mr. Wanskus on November 27 1997 . ..(inaudible)... He said the memo read Preliminary Project Budget Library. He asked Mr. Wanskus if he could explain how the cost went from $3,000,000.00 preliminary budget, and the Council knows all the ups and downs. He said he feels it is a $5,000,000.00 Library. He said he would like to know how the preliminary budget went from $3,000,000.00 to $5,000,000.00. He asked if Mr. Wanskus inform the Council and did the Council get the cost estimates they were suppose to have.. . (inaudible). .. Mr. Wanskus said there was never a cost estimate of construction, preliminary or broken down detailed estimate prepared by his office at all doing the start of this project or even now at the completion of this project, not once. He said the only thing that was stated by him was when the changes were made cost were escalating because every thing that is changed and added increases the cost of construction unless it is taken away. He said the perimeters of the building, as he initially had at 20,000 and 15,000 was designed and was designed as needed in the building. Unidentified voice said he basically did not fulfil1...(Inaudible)... Attorney Mike Bruno said the borough did not request. He said Mr. Wanskus would be happy to fulfill it. He said the Borough told Mr. Wanskus the budget was $3-3,500,000.00. He asked Mr. Wanskus to confirm dollar amount. Mr. Wanskus stated he was told $3,500,000.00 Unidentified voice said on the documents it says $3,000,000.00 Attorney Mike Bruno stated he is sure Mr. Wanskus would be happy to provide that if he was requested to. He said they heard the other night that the Council requested it and they were not prepared to give 12 it to the Council at that time but if that is something the Council wants Mr. Wanskus is happy to provide it. Mayor Sica said the Council understands adding the tower, the mezzanine, the reflecting pool, the walls they want over here, the bathrooms they want over here and the staircase they want over there that all adds cost and the they all understand that. He said as he said before when they sat down with Mr. Wanskus and said here is a basic ball park figure $3-3,500,000.00 and if it is going to go more then that let us know it is going to go more, when the time comes and the council gets a definitive number by way of the bid the mezzanine is .. . (inaudible). .. the roof is .. . (inaudible). . .up and if the Council wants to do it in the future they can do it. He said but if the.. . (inaudible). ..4 more feet it can not be done in the future. He said there are certain things that have to stay, even if the mezzanine is eliminated. He said the mezzanine could not be put in later on and then raise the ceiling. He said at that point and time the bids are received and of the council feels this is what then more money will be raised to do this as simple as that or cut back or just build something they can be proud of. He said this thing, if it is built according to the schematics, the module, this town has something to be proud off. He said that is what .. . (inaudible).. . town in. Mr. Wanskus said he could give a perfect example of what Mayor Sica is talking about in the sports complex in which he did not have a probable cost of construction on that project either. He said he went to bid the first time on that proj ect and the bids came back, the cheapest was $770,000.00, and the highest was almost $1,000,000.00 from the guy from New York City. He said he was brought into the Mayor's office and he said the Mayor asked him what kind of a building did he design, it is $7-800,000.00 why so much. He said he told the Mayor probably because there were not a lot of bidders, he said there were only four. He said the Mayor asked if they could re-bid. He said he told the mayor to re-bid and then see what the other numbers are. He said the second time they bid, he submitted to Gloria Goodrich 32 sets of drawings and there were 32 bidders who picked up drawings. He said and the lowest price was the one who was doing the building and that was $573,000.00 that was negotiated down with the change in some materials. He said the bidding form establishes the cost of construction. He said once those prices are gotten, which it says in article 5 that is where it will be determined and then it can be adjusted accordingly. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if it was fair to say the original plans prior to any changes were in the $3-3,500,000.00 range. He said that is what the Mayor indicated the preliminary budget was going to be. Mr. Wanskus said the initial set of drawings that were completed and the first drawing before the mezzanine and anything was added that was presented in front of the governor was more in line with meeting the budget at that time which was $3,500,000.00 established. Mayor Sica made a statement about the budget amount being $3,500,000.00 the rest of conversation inaudible 13 MARCH 3- 1997 RE: LIBRARY DISCUSSION MARCG 3. 1997 Borough Attorney Coughlin stated everyone recognizes that obviously if you build a house or whatever the more you add the more, the cost goes up. He said what needs to be established is whether there was a base at least when the original plans where constructed to a price range. DISCUSSION (CONTINUED) Mr. Wanskus stated there was 35,000 sq. feet, the building was lower, no clock tower, no mezzanine, no monumental stairs, no wall dividing the children area, no reflecting pool and the building was functional the way it was designed. He said he has a copy of those drawings and that was in line with that budget, maybe a little bit more depending when you went out to bid and all the drawings were done $3,500,000.00 maybe at the most $4,000,000.00. He said at the point now where the drawings are the price has escalated the mezzanine cost $3,000.00 plus adding 4 feet to the height of the building, the clock tower, reflecting pool, the wall between the two, the 1000 sq. feet to the Senior Center added cost. He said if these cost are added up it is going to be over $4,000,000.00 and everybody knows that. He said especially in the meeting on the February 18 and he was asked and he did not give an answer because he said it could be based on economic factor without doing a cost of construction detailed estimate and that is when DiFrancesco who was in the meeting said between $120-150 per sq. foot. He said his engineers JCA, an engineering company with a lot of experience in this field stated approximately $110-140 in that vicinity based on what they had done. Councilmember Fazekas stated if I was never provided with a cost and he goes through changes, he could not assume it is going to cost him more. He asked was that correct. Mr. Wanskus asked if he does not provide him with a cost estimate and you go through changes. ... Councilmember Fazekas said yes you do not provide me with an estimate and he makes changes how does he assume it will cost him more. Mr. Wanskus asked ifhe does not give a cost. Mayor Sica said well if you go from a 30,000 sq. ft building to a 34,000 sq. ft building, you know your are at a 1/7'h more cost minimum. Councilmember Fazekas said his point is with changes if it is never brought up, you do not know it is going to cost you more. Mr. Wanskus said he did state and he has letters and documentation that everything that was adding to the building was adding cost to the building and he can provide copies. Mayor Sica is very upset about the constant changes in the building. Mr. Wanskus said he does have copies of letters that were submitted with regards to changes to the building, adding cost to the proj ect. Mayor Sica said what needs to be decided at this point and time is what can be done with this building. He asked should they procreate x 14 amount of dollars for Anderson to do the engineering work and continue to have Wanskus stay on as the architect or do we change it midstream. He asked Mr. Wanskus to give them 5 minutes. At approximately 7:30 P.M. went into recess. At approximately 7:35 P.M. meeting reconvened. Councilmember Failace said they have to fire Mr. Saperstein. Councilmember DuPont asked the Borough Attorney how to send him out and he says they are not up to par or whatever. Do we have a right to say that we have to (inaudible). Who makes the call as to whether we are waiving our rights? Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said we would review the entire architectural drawings. He said he guessed that the term would have to be that they are substantially completed. If they conclude that they are then (inaudible). Mayor Sica said Mr. Saperstein is not the architect of record. We have Mr. Anderson do it and we should sent it to an independent architect and he can pay the cost. When he comes back it will be substantially completed and we will put him back on the project. Councilmember DuPont asked the Mayor a question and it was entirely inaudible. Mayor Sica said it can go out to bid. He said he would check to see if it needed some minor changes. Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said he thought they had to have a mutual standard that we have to (inaudible) back and forth. The Engineering would have had some (inaudible). Mayor Sica said that could be worked out between his lawyer and our lawyer. Councilmember Gutowski said if we fire Mr. Saperstein and hire Mr. Anderson and keep Mr. Wanskus in limbo and send these plans out to an independent architect, at his cost, if they come back we are going to tell it is at his cost. If they come back at his cost unproved. . . Councilmember Failace said or there has to be money in the (inaudible) room. If it takes another week and a half or so to add these drawings (inaudible). Mayor Sica said they were still going to need engineering work done. The architect that you are going to hire to do this independent study can't give you an answer unless you have some kind of Engineering (inaudible). You don't have the architectural drawings and you could see the (inaudible). Councilmember DuPont said (inaudible). Councilmember Fazekas asked if they had to fire Mr. Saperstein. 15 MARCH 3, 1997 RECESS RECONVENED DISCUSSION MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTINUED MR. WANSKUS & MR. BRUNO ,ESQ. - RETURNED TO MEETING Councilmember DuPont said Mr. Saperstein incurred costs and he also thinks he is going to do some architectural work as well. Councilmember Failace asked ifthey spoke to Mr. Saperstein. Councilmember DuPont said he spoke to him on Friday. Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said he may think he is going to do some architectural work. We don't want him going out and incur any cost because (inaudible). He said he can talk to him tomorrow morning. Councilmember Gutowski said he IS leaving for Florida on Wednesday. (ALL TALKING AT ONCE, INAUDffiLE). At approximately 7:50 P.M. Mr. Wanskus and Michael Bruno, Esq. returned to the meeting. Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said what they would like to do is try to come up with a way by which we would ultimately resolve this matter. What we would propose to do is the following. The Council's opinion is that their may exists a question to whether or not the architectural work is complete. We would like to resolve that by sending it to an independent architect at your cost. Their recommendation with regard to whether there is substantial (inaudible) architectural drawings. Recognizing the fact that there are not any engineering drawings to be done and that there is some open (inaudible) to be accomplished after the fact. Inaudible but it will be along those lines. If in fact this independent architectural review results in an opinion by those architects that there is substantial completion (inaudible). Then the Borough would reinstate Mr. Wanskus. If in fact they conclude that there is not substantial (inaudible) that the architectural plans are not in (inaudible) would be done. We would propose that Mr. Wanskus remain in the current status, which is not (inaudible) to conclude the job. If we wait any further claims to either the use if the drawings (inaudible). If that is acceptable we would proceed with that. Mayor Sica said the other thing is if the architect drawings and the independent architect come back and say they are okay then we would pick up or advance in order to pay Mr. Anderson to do the engineering. Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said that we would propose that we hire the engineer directly. Understand, that we believe in doing it and we do run the risk of a (inaudible). We think that would ultimately conclude that (inaudible). (Inaudible) asked how long do they propose that will take. Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said we want it done sooner rather than later. 16 Mayor Sica said he would go one step further and have Mr. Wanskus submit it in three days. Mr. Wanskus said he is not doubting his plans. He said he is not (inaudible). This is totally out of left field. He said he did not think this would be an issue. He said he could not give them a decision right now because in his opinion this is stating that he has to rely on another entity, another professional mainly another architect like himself to establish his own (inaudible). He said his fear is if he says no these drawings are terrible, you can't do anything, and these drawings are not in any type of completion. He said he was going to be not only penalized but ridiculed and he would be giving up all rights to (inaudible) and a year and one half of his life. To further enforce his concern the architect that the Borough is choosing most likely would have an opportunity to complete this work. He will be giving up all rights to his creation and not get any accolades fiom his profession as a society of architects. He said he is in a lose/ lose situation here after the one thing during this whole process from the very begiuning because of the doubt that they have instilled upon you. Mayor Sica said he did not think that Mr. Wanskus was in a lose/lose situation. He said he thought he was in a win/win situation because if you have confidence in your drawings then you have nothing to lose. We are the guys who are paying the bills and we are the one going overboard numerous times to try to get this thing going. He said he is now going to go overboard by paying Mr. Anderson to do it, by getting an independent architect to ensure that the drawings are good. He said he did not see anything wrong with the drawings. So, you are in a winning situation not a losing one. What you are saying is in fact that are architect comes back and (inaudible) then you are in a win/win situation too. If they were not good we are not going to take them or we are going to have problems with Mr. Sudia. So, now you are getting the best of both worlds. Mr. Wanskus said the Mayor was correct about that but on the other hand you said that he is giving up all claims to his creation. Michael Bruno, Esq. said he wanted to understand this. He said that they should work on the definition of substantial completion. Mayor Sica said we are taking into consideration that the Engineering drawings are not there with it so it may necessitate moving a beam here or something there. But, what they are saying is if there is something catastrophically wrong with these things and the roof falls down and kills somebody. There has to be something that is substantial in nature. Mr. Wanskus said that the Mayor was talking about malpractice. Mayor Sica replied of course he was. We understand that keeping you on fiom now to the conclusion of the project, your insurance is still in effect. If this building falls down six months after we open up we are going to sue your insurance company. Mr. Wanskus said we understand all that but we want to make sure (inaudible). 17 MARCH 3, 1997 DISCUSSION CONTINUED MARCH 3, 1997 INAUDIBLE - ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE. DISCUSSION Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin said they said to him the only thing that is out standing is the Engineering (inaudible). Based on that engineering there is ultimate fine tuning that needs to be accomplished at an architectural prospective before it can be sent out to bid. Mr. Wanskus said what he would say is that he is not sure (inaudible) but he will give you one in the morning, if that is expendable. Provided that they select the architect, we would like the ability to approve that selection. Mayor Sica said that goes without saying and cause of there too. Mr. Wanskus said he also acknowledges that we are doing this as a combination because the contract really says there is no right to arbitration. (inaudible) we will wait for you answer, thank you. OPENED TO THE PUBLIC At approximately 8:00 P.M., upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Fazekas and Gutowski and unanimous affirmative vote of the full members present, the meeting was opened to the public. ADJOURNED At approximately 8:01 P.M., upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Fazekas and Bialowarczuk and unanimous affirmative vote of the full members present, this meeting was adjourned. Respectfully Submitted, ~~ Municipal Clerk KMB/cp / tr lam 18 A Special Meeting of the Mayor and Council of the Borough of Carteret was called to order by Mayor Peter J. Sica at 6:30 P.M. on Monday, March 3, 1997, Municipal CourtlPolice Facility, 230 Roosevelt Avenue, Carteret, New Jersey. Upon individual roll call, the following were noted present: Council member Deborah Bialowarczuk " " John DuPont " " James Failace " " Jack Fazekas " " William Feingold " " Stan!ey Gutowski Also noted present was Borough Attorney Craig Coughlin, Attorney Michael Bruno and John Wanskus. Mailed to The Home News & Tribune, The Star Ledger and posted on the bulletin board on February 28, 1997. To adopt a resolution to go into Closed Ses:>ion to discuss potential litigation. RESOLUTION #97-78 was introduced by the Mayor and was refen·ed to the Council for action Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Fazekas RESOLUTION #97-78 "RESOLUTION TO GO INTO CLOSED SESSION" was adopted. Upon individual roll call, Councilmembers Bialowarczuk, DuPont, Failace, Fazekas, Feingold and Gutowski voted in the affirmative. At approximately 6:32 P.M., the meeting adjourned into Closed Session. Upon MMS&C, by Council members Fazekas and Gutowski and unanimous affIrmative vote of the full membership present, the meeting was opened to the public at approximately 8:00 P.M. MARCH 3, 1997 SPECIAL MEETING March 3, 1997 ROLL CALL STATEMENT OF MEETING NOTICE PURPOSE OF MEETING RESOLUTION #97-78 Closed Session Adopted Adjourned to Closed Session Open Session MARCH 3, 1997 SPECIAL MEETING -Continued ADJOURNED There being no further business or discussion, the meeting adjourned at approximately 8:01 P.M., upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Fazekas and Bialowarczuk and unanimous affirmative vote of the full membership present. Respectfully submitted, ~~WJ~ THLEEN M. A ,,~ CMC.... Municipal Clerk ' ----------------------------------- ------------------------ ------------------------------------ ----------------------- ----------------------------- ------------------------------ ----------------------------------- ------------------------