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HomeMy Public PortalAbout1997/12/08 - ......- A Special Meeting of the Mayor and Council of the Borough ofCarteret was called to order by Council President Stanley Gutowski on Monday, December 8, 1997 at approximately 7:00 PM., at the Municipal CourtlPolice Facility, 230 Roosevelt Avenue, Carteret, New Jersey. Upon individual roll call vote, the following were noted present: Council President Councilmember Stanley Gutowski Deborah Bialowarczuk John DuPont James Failace William Feingold " " " . Noted absent were Mayor Peter 1. Sica and Councilmember Jack Fazekas. A1so noted present was Borough Attorney Craig 1. Coughlin and AFSCME Staff Representative Paul Mercatanti. The Clerk stated that on December 4, 1997 in full compliance with the Open Public Meetings Act, a notice of tonight's meeting was sent to The Home News Tribune, The Star Ledger and posted on the bulletin board. The following Disciplinary Hearings and Grievances: Disciplinary Actions: 1. William Kolibas, Jr. - July 2, 1997 2. Kevin Vitale - October 7, 1997 3. Ted Surick - November 6, 1997 Grievances: 1. William Kolibas, Jr.- July 1, 1997 2. William Kolibas, Jr.- July 2, 1997 3. Kevin Vitale - October 17, 1997 4. William Kolibas, Jr- November 7, 1997 Council President Gutowski asked for a motion to go into Closed Session to discuss the personnel matters. 1 DEC~1BER 8, 1997 SPECIAL MEETING ROLL CALL STATEMENT OF NEETING NOTICE PURPOSE DISCUSSION DECEl1BER 8, 1997 RESOLUTION #97-371-1 CLOSED SESSION Adopted Adjourned Into Closed Session tlEETING OPEl~ED Disciplinary Hearings Willirun Koli1x~s, Jr. RESOLUTION #97-371-1 was introduced by Council President Gutowski and was referred to the Council for ¡iction. Upon MMS&C, by Council members DuPont and Bialowarczuk RESOLUTION #97-271-1 "RESOLUTION TO GO INTO CLOSED SESSION" was adopted. Upon individual roll call vote, Councilmembers Bialowarczuk, DuPont, Failace, Feingold and Gutowski voted in the affirmative. Councilmember Fazekas was noted absent. At approximately 7:02 P.M., the meeting was adjourned into Closed Session. Upon MMS&C. by Councilmembers Failace and Bialowarczuk and unanimous affirmative vote of the five (5) Councilmembers present, the meeting was opened at approximately 7: 1 0 P.M. Council President Gutowski said these are disciplinary and grievance hearings. He would like everyone to know that the people that are charged do have the right to have their hearing in open session, if they desire. If they choose to have an open session, he will remind people who are here to observe, that is exactly what they are here for, to observe, and he will not tolerate any outbursts, any comments. Nothing ITom the audience. If that happens he will have the room cleared and ¡hey will hold these in closed session. This is going to be held properly and efficiently. He stated the Council would hold one of the disciplinary actions which is Ted Surick's. It is the one filed by the Mayor. The Mayor is out oftown. Mr. Surick said that was supposed to be cancelled. Council President Gutowski said it is cancelled. He already said they were going to hold it. They are not going to do it. The first one they will hear tonight is the disciplinary action against William Kolibas, Jr. that was filed by Mr. Surick. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas ifhe had a representative? Mr. Kolibas said yes. Paul Mercatanti, AFSCME Council 73, said Mr. Kolibas would like his hearing to be in open session. 2 Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti and Mr. Kolibas to come up front to sit. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Mercatanti how many witnesses did he anticipate? Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Kolibas will be presenting most of the case himself. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas if he had any witnesses? Mr. Kolibas said approximately six Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if they were present? Mr. Kolibas said yes. Council President Gutowski asked the witnesses to wait out in the hallway until they are called. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if he had any witnesses? Mr. Surick said he had Mr. Carpenter and Mr. Golino. Borough Attorney Coughlin said they were going to sequester all the witnesses because they wanted to hear independent recollections. Borough President Gutowski asked Municipal Clerk Barney to read the charges. Municipal Clerk Barney said this is the one dated July 2, 1997. She read "The charges are Violation of 4A:2-2.3 (a) 2. Insubordination 6. Conduct unbecollÙng a public employee. Specifications: Threatened and cursed at me in ITont of numerous borough employees- and taxpayers at the ribbon cutting ceremony on July 1, 1997. On July 2, 1997 he (Mr. Kolibas) came to the Borough Garage at 7:20 A.M. and threatened me in front of another borough employee. Signed by Ted Surick." Mr. Ted Surick was sworn in. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick to state his name and spell it for the record. At approximately 7:15 P.M., Councilmember Jack Fazekas was noted present at the conference table. Theodore A. Surick, S-U-R-C-I-K Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if he was employed by the Borough of Carteret. Mr. Surick said right. DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Disciplinary Hearing William Kolibas, Jr. Continued DECEl1BER 8, 1997 Disciplinary Hearing - William Koli1x~s, Jr. Continued ,18',. ....'" ,., c' Borough Attorney Coughlin asked in what capacity? Mr. Surick said Superintendent. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick ifhe caused certain disciplinary actions to be filed against Mr. Kolibas by Preliminary Notice of Discipline dated July 2, 19917 Mr. Surick said he did. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked in that Mr. Surick alleged certain incidences took place on or about July 1, 1997? Mr. Surick said right. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick to describe what happened? Mr. Surick said the borough had the opening ceremony for the new borough hall annex and he received a letter to go to the bank. When he was riding by he saw Mr. Kolibas's truck there and he got on the radio and told his guys that ifMr. Kolibas can go to the opening and stay there, so could they. When he walked in Mr. Kolibas threatened him. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked what did Mr. Kolibas say? Mr. Surick said Mr. Kolibas said he was going to kick his rear end. Punch him in his heart. The whole thing. Borough Attorney Coughlin repeated "going to punch you in your hear?" Mr. Surick said yeah, he just had open heart surgery not too long before that. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick what, if any, action did he take? Mr. Surick asked at that time? Borough Attorney Coughlin said yes. Mr. Surick said at that time he didn't take any. Borough Attorney Coughlin said, no did he Mr. Kolibas take? Mr. Surick said Mr. Kolibas came after him at that time and started yelling and screaming. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick what did he mean by came after you? Mr. Surick said Mr. Kolibas came up to him and told him he was going to kick his ass. He told his foreman that he was going to have his foreman do ¿¡ it, but he came over. c·,.·····._.._ Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick where was he at when this took place? This was at the annex? The opening of the annex and did he park in the parking lot? He asked Mr. Surick to walk him through it. Mr. Surick said he parked in the parking lot, walked through the door and he saw Mr. Kolibas talking to his cousin, which his cousin went down there to tell him his name was used on the radio Borough Attorney Coughlin asked who was the cousin? Mr. Surick said Anthony Fiore. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick how did he know it was Mr. Kolibas's truck at the annex? Mr. Surick said Mr. Kolibas was the only one who drives it besides Chick. Borough Attorney Coughlin said so, it's a borough' vehicle, not his personal vehicle. Mr. Surick said it was the borough vehicle. Borough Attorney Coughlin addressed Mr. Surick and asked if he saw Mr. Kolibas engaged in conversation with Mr. Fiore? Mr. Surick said Mr. Fiore and then Mr. Carpenter. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick what did he do then? Mr. Surick said he just kept walking beéause he knew, you know how you can feel somebody talking about you, well, he just kept walking. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick where did he walk to? J'vlr. Surick said he walked to the other side and talked to a couple of girls that were there. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if it was Mr. Surick's testimony that at that point Mr. Kolibas... Mr. Surick said no Mr. Carpenter was coming over to him to tell him what Mr. Kolibas told him. Mr. Kolibas then came over and told me himself Borough Attorney Coughlin asked where did that take place? Mr. Surick said forward part of the building. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked who was present at the time it took place? Mr. Smick said Joey Golino. It ..vas full, it was packed. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long did Mr. Surick's encounter with Mr. Kolibas last? DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Disciplinary Hearing IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Disciplinary Hearing - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Surick said a few seconds. Borough Attorney Co:.!ghlin asked him then what did he do? Mr. Surick said he yelled back at him and told him this wasn't the place. Mr. Manetta came over and told Mr. Kolibas the same thing, Mr. Manetta winked his eye His guys saw that. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr Surick when he said he yelled back at him, what did he mean by he yelled back at him? Mr. Surick said he went over there and said number one, his guys were the guys that did all the work on the bank. Mr. Kolibas got mad because he thought I said something bad on the radio which he didn't think telling his guys to go over there was anything bad. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if that was the end of the incident on July 1st? Mr. Surick said yes, that was the end of it. He said Jimmy Failace came to the garage and he wanted to know anything about it and he told Mr. Failace he wrote a letter of reprimand. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifMr. Kolibas reported to Mr. Surick? Mr. Surick said now he does. Borough Attorney Coughlin said, no, on July 1 st? Mr. Surick said no, he didn't. But the next morning Mr. Kolibas was in the garage and he threatened him again and told him if he filed charges he was going to kick his rear end all over town. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked approximately how many people were at the annex opening. Mr. Surick said 105 -200. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked·if they were all borough employees or were there members of the general public as well. Mr. Surick said there were members of the general public. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick what happened on July 2, 19917 Mr. Surick said Chick, which is supposed to be the senior man, went down the garage. Mr. Mercatanti asked who Chick was? 6 Mr. Surick said James "Chick" Tuturro. He is supposed to be the senior man on the truck, was in the garage about 7: 10 or 7: 15 A.M. He said he called Chick over and asked him to do him a favor. He told him when he comes to the garage, just get gas, get what he has to get and then get out of here. He told Chick he didn't want Mr. Kolibas around. Mr. Kolibas is starting trouble with his guys, talking union business with his guys. Chick said okay he would do that. Five minutes later Mr. Kolibas came running into Mr. Surick's office and threatened to kill him again. Mr. Kolibas said if he did press charges against him, he would do something. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked who was present at that time? Mr. Surick said Robert Kately. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick ifhe remembered the exact words that Mr. Kolibas said? Mr. Surick said he didn't. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick to describe Mr. Kolibas's vocal intonation, can he describe the tone of voice that he spoke in? Mr. Surick said he was mad. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he was excited? Mr. Surick said yes, he was very excited. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he was angry? Mr. Surick said yes, angry. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if at any point during the two times, was he concerned for his safety? Either on the 1 st or the 2nd? Mr. Surick said not really. There were too many people around. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick how many people were around, in total, on July 2nd? Mr. Surick said the whole garage was there. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick how many people comprised the whole garage? Mr. Surick said six guys. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Smick if he believed they all heard Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Surick said nobody heard him. 7 DEC~ER 8, 1997 Disciplinary Hearing William Kolibas, Jr. Continued DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued second were you and Mr. Kolibas? ~~ Mr. Surick said and Robert Kately. . Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick how long did his encounter with Mr. Kolibas last on the 2nd? Mr. Surick said ten minutes. He said he told Chick to get him out of there before he gets fired. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if this was in Mr. Surick's office? Mr. Surick said yes. Chick was in the truck Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if he said anything to Mr. Kolibas on the 2nd Mr. Surick said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin said "you didn't say anything?" Mr Surick said he told him to get out of here before he gets fired. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Tuturro was there as well as Kately? Mr. Surick said no. Tuturro was outside by the truck. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if at some point Tuturro came in? Mr. Surick said no. He had yelled out the door. Council President Gutowski asked if there were any questions from any Councilmembers? The Council said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if he had anything else to add? Mr. Surick said no. Mr. Kolibas asked if he gets to cros~ examine Mr. Surick? Borough Attorney Coughlin said yes he did. Paul Mercatanti said he just wanted to get something straight on Mr. Surick's testimony. On July 1st Mr. Surick said he was in the parking lot and Mr. Kolibas threatened him. Mr Surick said no. He was in the bank (annex). Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Surick mentioned that George told him what Willie said, but you also said WiJlie confronted him? 8 Mr. Surick said George was cOllÙng over to tell him what Willie had said. Willie jumped over and told him what he had told George. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick ifhe filed charges in court on the same issue? Mr. Surick said no, he counter-filed charges against him and his father Mr. Mercatanti asked ifit was regarding the same July 1st date? Mr. Surick said no it wasn't the same. It was for cursing. He just countersigned a complaint. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick if he just signed things that he didn't know what they were? Mr. Surick said nope. Mr. Mercatanti said so you just sign anything. Me Surick said nope. Mr. Mercatanti said but you knew what this was when you signed it? Mr. Surick said yes. Mr. Mercatanti said in other words you will sign some things and you don't know what they are. What happened to the disposition of that suit? Mr. Surick said everybody dropped the charges. Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Surick as a counter signature dropped the charges also? Mr. Surick said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked then why are we discussing this here? Mr. Surick said this is all together different. Mr. Mercatanti asked it's all together different, but it's the same situation? Mr. Surick said it was all together different. They were criminal charges. Mr. Mercatanti said okay they were criminal charges. He said he would like the charges on July 1 st dismissed immediately. This was the same charges he filed on four. He's saying they were criminal charges. We all know they weren't. He countersigned a suit He says he doesn't know what he countersigned and then he had the thing disllÙssed. It was good enough to dismiss in court, it should be good enough to dismiss here. 9 Borough Attorney Coughlin said to the best of his knowledge there were criminal charges that were filed initially in the Carteret Municipal Court which were removed to Woodbridge. Is that another charge? Mr. Mercatanti said yes and from what he understand ITom Mr. Kolibas it was the same incident on July 1 st. DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING William Kolib.~s, Jr. Continued DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued ~- Borough Attorney Coughlin said he thinks they arose out oft~e facts of circumstances, but clearly the evidentiary level is different and the consequences are different. The criminal matter is different and unique from disciplinary charges. One could theoretically be guilty of disciplinary violation and not be guilty of a crime. He asked Mr. Mercatanti if he agreed? Mr. Mercatanti said in this instance with the personalties, he disagrees. The disciplinary hearing and the charges that were filed in Woodbridge Court are one in the same If you recall, the disciplinary charges came about and all of a sudden we had criminal charges. We all waited for the disposition of the criminal charges and he finds out tonight that the crillÙnal charges were dropped Again he is asking the Council, if the crillÙnal charges were dropped, why are we holding this disciplinary hearing. Especially if the criminal charges dealt with the July 1 st issue. He said it was something for the Council to think over when they, go into Closed Session Mr Mercatanti said on Jul y 2nd, Mr. Surick mentioned again that Willie threatened him, he asked if that was correct? Mr. Surick said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick to specifically state what Mr. Kolibas said. Mr Surick said Mr. Kolibas told him he was going to kick his ass ifhe didn't drop the charges against him. Mr Mercatanti repeated "If you didn't drop the charges against him". What charges are they talking about? Mr. Surick said Mr. Kolibas thought he had pressed charges against him and he had not. He said he didn't press until the 2nd. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick if he knew why Willie was at the garage on the 2nd? Mr. Surick said he was getting fuel and oil for the truck. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick if he knew if Willie was investigating a grievance? Mr. Surick said he didn't. Mr. Mercatanti asked if Willie was the union president at the time? Mr. Surick said yes he was. Mr. Mercatanti asked if Willie had the right to go into the garage to investigate a grievance? Mr. Surick said he has to check with him first. 10 Mr. Mercatanti said that wasn't the question. As union president, does he have the right to go into the garagt). Mr. Smick said he has to check with him first and he got a directive from the Mayor on that. Mr. Mercatanti said that was after the fact. Borough Attorney Coughlin told Mr. Mercatanti to ask Mr. Surick when he got the directive. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick when did he receive the directive? Mr. Surick said in 1992. Mr. Mercatanti asked the Council to disregard that because there is a long standing policy in this town if a union president has to investigate a grievance, the union president has the right to go on any work site and investigate the grievance unannounced. This has been the policy when Mike Bucsak was president. It's been a policy when Willie Kolibas is president and it was a policy when John Riley was president. He asked Mr. Surick why he was interfering with Mr. Kolibas's right as union representative? Mr. Surick said he wasn't interfering with his rights. Mr. Mercatanti said you threw him out of the garage. Mr. Surick said he didn't throw him out of the garage. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he thought they would get a lot further if they ask a question and have an answer. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick why he was interfering with his rights to investigate? Mr. Surick said he didn't interfere with his rights. Mr. Mercatanti asked if he threw him out of the garage? Mr. Surick said no he did not. He said he told Chick that when he was done getting oil and doing whatever he had to do, please leave. Mr. Mercatanti asked if that was throwing something out of the garage? Mr. Surick said he didn't think it was. Mr. Mercatanti said they were using semantics again. He said he had no further questions. Mr. Mercatanti said he would like to recall Mr. Surick at another time. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he wanted to rec:ill him? 11 Mr. Mercatanti said they may have to depending on what Mr. Kately says. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if there were any questions from the Council? DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING William Kolibas, Jr. Continued DECEl1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - \Jillirun Kolibas, Jr. Continued ,~.'i' Council President Gutowski asked if anyone else had a question for Mr. Surick? Councilmember Failace said had a few questions. He is not sure if they are for Teddy or Paul. He asked about the union business and when they can they go? Any time of the day? Mr. Mercatanti said the practice has been usually any time during the day. The way it works is a union member would call the president and say he has a problem with such and such a person. The union president would then go to his supervisor and tell him he had to go to such and such a place and be relieved of his duties for that time. He also has to state a specific time when he expects to be back. Councilmember Failace said they wouldn't make it lunchtime? Mr. Mercatanti said no, the reason it hasn't been lunch time is because sometimes lunch times vary. For example, some of the guys are out on the road and they can't be reached at lunch. The past practice has always been to investigate it but not waste the whole day doing it. He added that it has never been abused Borough Attorney Coughlin said he just had a couple of questions. He asked Mr. Surick how long he had been in a supervisory capacity? Mr. Surick said the past ten years. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if during that time has there always been a collective bargaining agreement in effect with regards to his subordinates? Mr. Surick said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick if he was familiar with that contract? !VIr. Surick said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe had the occasion to have to deal with that contract ITom time to time? Mr. Surick said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe was familiar with the grievance procedure? Mr. Surick said yes Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe was familiar with the rights of the union in investigating the matters of a grievance? Mr. Surick said yes he was. He said nine out of ten times if the guy comes in and talks to one of his guys, he comes into the office. He said you just can't pull guys off the tmck or out of the garage because you're the union president. 12 DEC~ER 8, 1997 Borough Attorney Coughlin said but on July 2nd, it's Mr. Surick's testimony, did Mr. Kolibas asked him to.. DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas,Jr. Continued Mr. Surick said no, he did not. He was just in the garage getting oil, from what Chick told him. Borough Attorney Coughlin said in Mr. Surick's conversation with him, Mr. Tuturro is here and he can testify as to what he said, did Mr. Kolibas ask him to..... Mr. Swick said he never said one thing that he had any union business in the garage. Paul Mercatanti asked Mr. Surick what time the work day started? Mr. Surick said 7:00 A.M. Paul Mercatanti asked what time did the work day start in the public works department? Mr. Surick asked his guys? Mr. Mercatanti said yes. Mr. Surick said 8:00 A.M. Mr. Mercatanti said that's the answer 8:00 A.M. Mr. Surick has noted that this took place at 7:20 A.M. Mr. Surick said right. Mr. Mercatanti asked if it was prior to work? Mr. Surick said right Councilmember Bialowarczuk said in the first part of Mr. Surick's testimony he stated that Willie Kolibas had a conversation with George Carpenter and then George Carpenter came over to him and told him what Willie said. Mr. Surick said right Councilmember Bialowarczuk said and in the second part of his testimony he stated that Willie jumped over George and didn't give George a chance to tell him. Mr. Surick said both Councilmember Bialowarczuk said it can't be both. Which one is it? 13 Mr. Surick said George started telling him and then Willie came over and started yelling and screaming at him. DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Koli1x~s. Jr. Continued . ,-,..",",< Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long was Mr. Surick engaged in conversation with Mr. Carpenter? Mr. Surick said a couple of seconds. Mr. Mercatanti told the Borough Attorney he had to talk to the Council about this because there was a meeting about this whole thing with the Unfair Practice charge. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked that they go off the record. At approximately 735 P.M., the tape was turned off. At approximately 7:38 P.M. the tape was turned back on. Council President Gutowski asked if there were any other questions from the Council before they moved on? Borough Attorney Coughlin called George Carpenter. George Carpenter was sworn in by Borough Attorney Coughlin who asked him to state his name and spell it for the record. George Carpenter, C-A-R-P-E-N-T-E-R Paul Mercatanti asked Mr. Carpenter what his title was? Mr. Carpenter said Foreman in the Road Department. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter if he was employed by the Borough of Carteret Mr. Carpenter said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he was employed by the Borough ofCarteret on July] st? Mr. Carpenter said yes. Borough Attorney Couglùin asked him ifhe was present at the grand opening of the annex? Mr. Carpenter said yes. 14 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if at some point during that event was he engaged ir. conversation with Mr. William Kolibas, Jr., when Mr. Ted Surick arrived') Mr. Carpenter said yes. DEC~ER 8, 1997 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter to describe for the Council what happened upon Mr. Surick's entry into the building? He asked if he knew what time it was? DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Carpenter said about 10:15 A.M. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter to walk them through the event of the next few minutes as related to Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick? Mr. Carpenter said when he got to the Borough Annex, Mr. Surick wasn't there yet, Willie was there. He walked in and Willie called him over and asked him if Teddy was using Willie's name over the radio. He told Willie the only thing Teddy said was to tell the guys to come to the annex, if Willie and Chick could go, our guys could go too. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter if he reported to Mr. Surick? Mr. Carpenter said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked then what happened? Mr. Carpenter said he told Willie that was the only thing he heard Teddy say and Willie told him to tell that M----F---- that he was going to punch his lights out or something to that effect. About three llÙnutes later Teddy walked in and he went over to tell Teddy what Willie said and Willie came over and said "never mind he would tell him himself'. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked what did he say? Mr. Carpenter said the same thing. Willie started cursing and yelling that he was going to punch Teddy's lights out. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how many people were around at the time? Mr. Carpenter said there were thirty or forty people in the place, at least. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the encounter between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick draw the attention of everyone there? Mr. Carpenter said not everybody. Most of them. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter to describe the tone of voice that Mr. Kolibas was speaking in? Mr. Carpenter said he was mad. Kind of yelling. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him what he meant by kind of yelling? 15 l'vlr Carpenter said just about everybody heard him. Borough Attorney Coughlin said, but they all didn't pay attention? DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued ~ Mr. Carpenter said not everybody, no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long the encounter lasted between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick? Mr. Carpenter said a couple of minutes. He wasn't sure. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he was at the annex because he had heard Mr. Surick on the radio and went there in response to that? Mr. Carpenter said he was going to go anyway. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter when Mr. Kolibas said M...F....he assumed that was the vernacular for mother and a curse word. Mr. Carpenter said correct. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if there were other curse words uttered at the time of the direct encounter between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick. Mr. Carpenter said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how that encounter ended? Mr. Carpenter said he wasn't really sure how it ended. He walked away. He told them to calm down and he walked over to the other side and got coffee. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if they continued on for some time? Mr. Carpenter said they continued on. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked what did Mr. Surick say to Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Carpenter said Mr. Surick said "yeah, urn hum and kept telling Mr. Kolibas to come outside and neither one of them went outside. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifMr. Kolibas made other statements in response to Mr. Surick's responses? Mr. Carpenter said Mr. Kolibas just said he was going to do bodily damage to Mr. Surick. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked again how long did the entire encounter last? Mr. Carpenter said it seemed a couple of minutes to him. Mr. Mercatanti told Mr. Carpenter that he said, just prior to his last answer. "kept telling him to come outside", who kept telling who to come outside? Mr. Carpenter said Willie kept asking Teddy to come outside. 16 Mr. Mercatanti asked if Teddy said anything back to Willie that he was going to come outside? Mr. Carpenter said no. Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Carpenter testified that there was a lot of yelling, but not everyone paid attention Was it loud yelling? Conversational yelling? A threat of yelling? Mr. Carpenter said there were threats and it wasn't just a normal voice it was loud Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Carpenter what would he consider loud? He raised his voice and asked if this would be loud? Mr. Carpenter said louder than that even. Mr. Mercatanti said so it was high pitched yelling. Mr. Carpenter said not quite yelling, but just about Mr. Mercatanti repeated "not quite yelling". He asked Mr. Carpenter what time did he say he got there? Mr. Carpenter said it was after the morning break some time. Mr Mercatanti asked what time was there morning break? Mr Carpenter said ten something. Mr. Mercatanti said he had no more questions. Council President Gutowski asked if the Council had any questions? Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter when he said Mr. Kolibas used the word threat in connection with his remarks, can he define what he means by a threat? Mr. Carpenter said he threatened to do bodily harm to him. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter to stay in case they need to question him further. Council President Gutowski asked Ted Surick if there were any other witnesses? Mr. Surick said Joe Golino. Council President Gutowski called Mr. Golino. Joseph Golino was sworn in. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino to state his name and spell his last name for the record. Joseph Golino - G-O-L-I-N-O. 17 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino ifhe was employed by the Borough ofCarteret. DECEl1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - \Jilli~ Kolibas. Jr. Continued . DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilliam Koli~~s, Jr. Continued Mr. Golino said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked in what capacity? Mr. Golino said he was a laborer. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he was working on July I, 1997? Mr. Golino asked if that was the day this happened. Borough Attorney Coughlin said it was the day the annex opened. Mr. Golino said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he was present at the annex? Mr. Golino said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him about what time? Mr. Golino said he couldn't tell him exactly, around 10:30 A.M. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he had the occasion while he was at the annex to witness an encounter between Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Golino said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he knew who Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick were~ Mr. Golino said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino to describe the encounter? Mr. Golino said he was there before Teddy got there. He and Mr. Kolibas were standing where the tellers used to be when the bank was open. He said he was standing to his left and George was in ITont of him and Tony was on his right. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked who Tony was? Mr. Golino said Tony Radomski. He said as soon as Teddy got there Mr. Kolibas got very upset He didn't get too loud because there were a lot of people in there but, it was loud enough. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino when he said it didn't get too loud, did Mr Kolibas say something? Mr. Golino said he said a lot of things. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked to whom? 18 Mr. Golino said to Mr. Surick. DEC~ER 8, 1997 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked where was Mr. Surick at? DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Golino said Mr. Surick was directly on the other side of George from him. B(\rough Attorney Coughlin asked if he was engaged in conversation with Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Golino said he was not engaged in any conversation. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino where was he standing? Mr. Golino said he was to Mr. Kolibas's left. Borough Attorney Coughlin said Mr. Kolibas was where the bank tellers were and Mr. Golino was further along than that? Mr. Golino said right. To the left side, but up a little. Borùugh Attorney Coughlin said then Mr. Surick walked in at some point? Mr. Golino said right Borough Attorney Coughlin asked where did Mr. Surick go when he walked in? Mr. Golino showed where Mr. Kolibas was and where they were all standing and said Teddy walked in around them. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how far away was Mr. Surick from Mr. Kolibas when he finally reached the point? Did he stop or was he walking at the time the encounter first happened? Was Mr. Surick walking at the time Mr. Kolibas encountered him? Mr. Golino said yes. He was walking. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Surick walked to the front door? Mr. Golino said not the front door, the back door. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how far into the building did Mr. Surick proceed before he is engaged by Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Golino said as soon as he saw him. Just like maybe as soon as he passed. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how far is that in feet? Mr. Golino said three or four feet. 19 Borough Attomey Coughlin asked how long did it take from the time Mr. S urick first entered the building until the time he first encountered Mr. Kolibas? DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARiNG - \Jilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Golino said five or ten seconds. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if then there was conversation between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick. Mr. Golino said if that's what you want to call it. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino what would he call it? Mr. Golino said a lot of profanity and threats. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him who uttered that profanity and threats? Mr. Golino said Mr. Kolibas. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino if he knew what Mr. Kolibas said? Mr. Golino asked if the Borough Attorney wanted him to say what Mr. Kolibas said? Exactly? Borough Attorney Coughlin said yes. Mr. Golino said Mr. Kolibas said" M-----F------I'll kill you, you c--k s-----r let's go outside and I'll punch you in your heart" amongst other things. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked what did Mr. Surick say? Mr. Golino said he couldn't hear Mr. Surick because he was on the other side ofMr. Carpenter. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long the encounter lasted between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick? Mr. Golino said about five minutes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how many people were present at the annex at that time? Mr. Golino said about forty. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the encounter was loud enough to draw the attention of the people? Mr. Golino said he was sure a few people heard it. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if anyone else came over? Mr. Golino said he didn't remember. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how loud was it? 20 Mr. Golino said it wasn't loud, but it was louder than a whisper. DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Borough Attorney Coughlin said he assumed there was conversation going on throughout the building, was the words spoken between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick louder than that polite conversation that was going on? DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Golino said he didn't think so. He said he was sure some people llÙght have heard, who were close by, but people on the other side of the room probably didn't hear it Borough Attorney Coughlin said he didn't have any other questions. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Golino where he was working that day? Mr. Golino said they were in West Carteret. Mr. Mercatanti asked where he took his break? Mr. Golino said one of the places up there, he didn't know, but they weren't through with break yet. Mr. Mercatanti asked what time was his break? Mr. Golino said it's supposed to be at ten, but sometimes it's a little before or a little after. Mr. Mercatanti asked what time did he take break that day? Mr. Golino said he didn't remember. Mr. Mercatanti asked if they could assume it was 10:00 A.M.? Mr. Golino said a little before or a little after. Mr. Mercatanti asked how long was his break? Mr. Golino said fifteen minutes. Mr. Mercatanti asked ifMr. Golino stuck to the fifteen minute rule? Mr. Golino said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Golino if he was saying he got to the annex at what time? Mr. Golino said about 10:30 A.M. He said he didn't remember exactly. Mr. Mercatanti asked if he remembered ifhe was there? Mr. Golino said yes, he remembers being th~re. 21 Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Golino if he had any other problems with Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Golino said no. DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Borough President Gutowski told Mr. Mercatanti that was not relevant. Mr Mercatanti said he thought it was relevant He said here is a man who testified that he said he was at the bank, when he is telling us in cross examination he was in West Carteret. Mr. Golino said he said he was at the bank at 10:30 and worked in West Carteret at ] 000 A.M. Mr. Mercatanti said he is making this a hostile witness. This man has a problem with Mr. Kolibas because Mr. Kolibas is going to testity against him on another matter. It is in Mr. Golino's interest to have Mr. Kolibas leave the employment of the Borough. Borough Attorney Coughlin said this is speculative as to what Mr. Kolibas is going to testity to in some future matter. He said Mr. Mercatanti could ask the witness about his relationship with Mr. Kolibas. He could ask him if he signed any tangible indication as per the evidence, ever sued him, etc. That it is Mr. Mercatanti's belief that he is going to testity against Mr. Kolibas sometime in the future. Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Kolibas is going to testity against Mr. Golino. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he believes that's too far afield. He told Mr. Mercatanti to ask Mr. Golino what his relationship was with Mr. Kolibas. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Golino if Mr. Kolibas ever filed any complaints against him in the past? Mr. Golino said he might of He didn't know. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Golino if he had ever harassed Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Golino said no. Mr Mercatanti said he had a letter to the Chief of Police, ITom Mr. Kolibas and Mr. James Tuturro pertaining to harassment and Mr. Golino and Mr. Kately's names are mentioned. He asked Mr. Golino ifhe was aware of this? Mr. Golino said no. This was the first he is hearing of it. He asked if that was the one Chick signed an incident report? Mr. Mercatanti said no. He said there is another report. He said he had no further questions at this time. He could see where this was going. Borough President Gutowski asked if anyone on the Council had any questions. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino to walk him through his morning on July 1 st? 22 Mr. Golino said they left for West Carteret to do the West Carteret route. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him at approximately what time? Mr. Golino said he started at 8:00 A.M. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him what did he do then? Mr. Golino said he went to West Carteret to do the route and a little before ten or a little after ten they take a break outside, so the radios in the trucks are on, that's when Mr. Surick came on and asked if they wanted to go to the annex. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Golino what he did then? Mr. Golino said they got in the truck and went to the annex. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifhe was present in the garage on July 2nd? Mr. Golino asked what day was it? Borough Attorney Coughlin said the day following the annex incident. He asked Mr. Golino if he witnessed any shouting between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick on that day? Mr. Golino said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he had no further questions. Borough President Gutowski asked if the Council had any questions? Mr. Mercatanti said he had one more. He asked Mr. Golino ifhe shut the truck off on his break? Mr. Golino said sometimes they shut the truck oft: but they leave the radio on. Borough President Gutowski asked Mr. Surick if he had any more witnesses? Mr. Surick said yes, Tony Radomski. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifMr. Radomski was present? Anthony Radomski - R-A-D-O-M-S-K-I was sworn in. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he was employed by the Borough of Ca11eret? Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifhe was working on July 1, 1997. 23 Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked ifhe was at the grand opening of the annex on that day? DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolib<~s, Jr. Continued NOV~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Radomski had an occasion to witness an encounter between Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him to describe the event leading up to it and the encounter? Mr. Radomski said when they walked in Willie was bitching about Teddy using his name over the radio and they were having a little argument about it and Willie turned around and told Teddy to come outside and they would settle it. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Radomski when he walked in was Mr. Surick there? Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas were already engaged in conversation when he walked in? Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he heard the words being spoken? Mr. Radomski said no. He was standing next to Willie and Teddy was by the wall. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Radomski if he was standing next to Mr. Kolibas and he couldn't hear the words he was saying? Mr. Radomski said he heard the words Willie said. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Radomski what Mr. Kolibas said? Mr. Radomski said he was bitching that Teddy used his name over the radio. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him to be more specific about what Mr. Kolibas said when he stated "bitching". Mr. Radomski said just why Teddy was using Willie's name over the radio and nobody else Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Radomski if he could hear Mr. Surick? Mr. Radomski said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him how far apart were Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas, in distance? 24 Mr. Radomski said from where he was to the wall. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if there was ever a time that they moved closer together? Mr. Radomski said yes there was. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked when was that? Mr. Radomski said Teddy came walking over and said they could settle this outside. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Teddy was saying that towards Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long the encounter lasted, from the time he first saw it until the time it ended? Mr. Radomski said not quite ten minutes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked when Mr. Surick moved closer to Mr. Kolibas could he then hear? Mr. Radomski said yes, he was standing right next to Willie. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Radomski what did Mr Surick say at that point? Mr. Radomski said he refused to go outside with him. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked "Mr. Surick refused to go outside?" Mr. Radomski said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him what did Mr.Kolibas say? Mr. Radomski was inaudible. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe could describe whether this conversation was loud or normal tone? Mr. Radomski said it was loud at the beginning because he was yelling across the room. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if it was still loud when they moved together? Mr. Radomski said not as loud as when they were yelling across the room. There were other people talking at that time also. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if it was loud enough to attract the attention of other people in the room? Mr. Radomski said yes. 25 Borough Attorney Coughlin said he had no further questions. DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued DEC~1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Mercatanti said he just wanted to get something straight on Mr. Radomski's testimony. Mr. Radomski said that Teddy said "let's settle this outside"? Mr. Radomski said no, Willie said it. Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Radomski said Teddy said it before. Mr. Radomski said no, he said Willie did Mr. Mercatanti said he would love to hear the tape on that one replayed. He asked Mr. Radomski if it was in a threatening tone? Mr. Radomski said yes Mr Mercatanti asked ifthere was cursing involved? Mr. Radomski said yes. Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Radomski testified before that they were yelling and that Willie was saying that Teddy was using his name on the radio and that it was an altercation? Mr Radomski is saying it was loud, was it threatening? Mr. Radomski said yes. Mr Mercatanti said and Mr. Radomski is saying that Willie is the one that said "let's go outside and settle this?" Mr. Radomski said yes. Mr. Mercatanti said and Teddy did not say anything.. Did Teddy walk toward Willie? Mr. Radomski said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked if Teddy's motion was threatening? Mr. Radomski asked what did Mr. Mercatanti mean by threatening? Mr. Mercatanti asked if Teddy came up to Willie? Chest to chest? Point fingers? Gestures, say something? Mr. Radomski said no, just talked. Mr. Mercatanti asked if he talked in a normal tone or a loud tone? Mr. Radomski said a loud tone. There were other people talking there. Mr. Mercatanti asked ifit was common place for a supervisor to talk in a loud tone to a subordinate? Mr Radomski said yes. 26 Mr. Mercatanti asked if it was common place for a supervisor to curse at subordinates? Overall? Mr. Radomski no. Mr. Mercatanti told Mr. Radomski in his initial testimony he said that Teddy said let's go outside and settle this and now, under cross examination he was saying Willie Mr. Radomski said he did not say that Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Radomski where was he that day Was he on the garbage truck? Mr. Radomski said no he was on the payloader. Mr Mercatanti asked where was that? Mr Radomski said he was working with Bobby Kately at the time. Mr. Mercatanti asked where? Mr. Radomski said they were working in the Hill Section. Mf. Mercatanti asked where was the Hill Section? How far is that ITom the annex? Borough President Gutowski said it was a two minute drive from the annex with a payloader.. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Radomski if he took a break? Mr Radomski said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked him what time his break was? Mr. Radomski said at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr Radomski if he took his break at the annex or somewhere else. Mr. Radomski said they were going to stop at the deli, Bob Kately came over and asked if they heard over the radio that the crew was invited to go to the borough annex. He said he didn't hear the initial transmission over the radio because he didn't have a radio in the payloader. Mr. Mercatanti asked what time was that? Mr. Radomski said at 10:00 AM. 27 M.r. Mercatanti had no further questions Council President Gutowski asked the Council if they had any questions? DECil1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilliam Kolibas, Jr. Continued DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINE HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Neeting Recessed ,".. ·",!)i.~'r. Council President Gutowski asked Mr Surick ifhe had any more witnesses or anybody that would present anything different? Mr. Surick said not really. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti to call his first witness. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Mercatanti if he was going to make a motion to dismiss? Mr. Mercatanti said he wanted to make a motion to dismiss the charges. He said they had a meeting during the summer with Mayor Sica and Councilmember Gutowski. The meeting was about an unfair practice charge that was filed relating to the July 2, 1997 meeting in the borough garage. He said they felt that management was being very unreasonable in the investigation of grievances and threatened Willie with police action if he showed up at the garage. At that meeting, Mr. Kolibas and Mr. DeBella were there, and his recollection was if the union dropped the unfair practice charge that this discipline charge would be dropped. In turn the union did drop the unfair practice charge. He's surprised that they are here discussing this charge. He was very surprised when he called Kathy Barney and found out this discipline charge was still there. If the borough is not going to drop this charge, he thinks they will have to institute the unfair practice charge again and go through all that. The meeting was there, the Mayor was there and they agreed. The consensus was that after their last fiasco, the grievance hearings that they stayed until 10:30 P.M. , that they were going to try to settle all outstanding matters with the committee made up of Council. At that time, it was the Mayor and Mr. Gutowski. That was the arrangement. A1so, they would wait and see what happened with the criminal charges and those charges were dropped. He is asking that this charge be dismissed. If Council is going to start having meetings to alleviate problems like this and then go back on it's word, which he is assuming they aren't doing and that it was just a lack of communication regarding that meeting, he would suggest that they would have to have grievance hearings on everything. He is again asking Council to dismiss this charge. He said as it goes tonight, he will present all of their witnesses who will say tillS never happened and go from there. He said he is velY disappointed. He understands there are other charges here. When Mr. Kolibas asked him to represent him on this charge, he did say to him that he thought this was dropped. Borough Attorney Coughlin told Mr. Mercatanti what made the most sense was to reserve on that motion at this time and go ahead and take the testimony on the witnesses on behalf of Mr. Kolibas and consider the motion when the disposition part comes. Mr. Mercatanti asked for a brief recess. Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Fazekas and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was recessed at approximately 8: 10 P.M. 28 Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Failace and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was resumed. Noted present were: Council President Councilmember Stanley Gutowski Deborah Bialowarczuk John DuPont James Failace Jack Fazekas William Feingold " " " " A1so noted present was Borough Attorney Craig 1. Coughlin. Noted absent was Mayor Peter J. Sica. Mr. Mercatanti called William Kolibas, Jr. Mr. Kolibas was sworn in. Stated his name and spelled his last name. Mr. Mercatanti told Mr. Kolibas that he just wanted him to tell the Council what happened that day in his words. Mr. Kolibas said he and his partner, James Tuturro, were scheduled to work at the municipal annex. That was for the opening. Ray Tobias who would normally have been there was on vacation. They needed someone there. Pat DeBlasio called the Chief and asked if he and Chick could go over there and they went. They started at 7:00 A.M. and were there until around lunch time, 11 :30. When the ceremony was over they cleaned up. In the morning they trimmed the grass and cut the weeds, put a new American flag up and did all kinds of things. At about 10:05 AM., Anthony Fiore,Jr., who is his cousin, came into the annex. He was surprised to see him because he was supposed to be working at the park. He asked him what was the matter. At this point in time there was a disturbance. The lights flickered on and off. Mr. Mercatanti addressed the Council and said they didn't have this when the management was testitying. Everyone was quiet and the lights weren't flickering oil' and on. Councilmember Bialowarczuk said it was an accident. Borough Attorney Couglùin said he didn't think there was a person in this room that believes that Mr. Sica did it on purpose. 29 Borough President Gutowski asked Mr. Thomas Sica to move away from the light switch. DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Neeting Resmed PRESENT DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJilli[llTI Kolib.~s, Jr. Continued ~.~-:""""~: ~&'J¡ Mr. Kolibas said about 10:05 A.M., Anthony Fiore, Jr, came in and he asked him what he was doing there. Mr. Fiore said he just want to tell him, before they get here, that Teddy was on the borough radio telling all his men to come to the borough annex because ifit's good enough for him and Chick then it's good enough for everyone of his men. He told his cousin that he was there working. He didn't know why Teddy was calling his men in. With that Mr. Carpenter walked through the door and he asked George what was going on. He asked why was Teddy using his name on the radio again? He's done it in the past. George said he didn't know, Teddy just told everyone to come in because he and Chick were there. With that, almost simultaneously, Teddy was walking through the door. Teddy came right up to him. He asked Teddy why he was using his name on the radio for. He told Teddy to knock it off Mr. Smick said shut your fat f------ mouth He again told Mr. Surick to stop using his name on the radio. Mr. Kolibas said Teddy said something to the effect that he should have buried you and your father along time ago. He said he told Mr. SUlick again, not to talk about him or his father. Mr. Kolibas said Mr. Surick said get the f--- out of my way and he walked over to the other side of the building. Mr. Kolibas said he told Mr. Surick that he was going to lose his patience with him one day and he's not going to like what is going to happen. With that Mr. Surick went to the other side. There was no one there but him, George Carpenter, Anthony Fiore and Ted Surick. That is what happened up to that point Mr. Surick went to the other side of the building, but he came back over to Mr. Kolibas. The Mayor had just put his picture up on the wall. They brought the ladder out to him. Mr. Surick came walking over. He thought Mr. Surick was leaving. Mr. Surick started to talk about some other stuff again. He told Mr. Surick they should go outside and talk about this and put an end to it. That's what the go outside came ITom, after the borough workers were there. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Kolibas if that was the conclusion on July 1st? Mr. Kolibas said except when he told Councilmember Failace what happened. Councilmember Failace said he would look into the matter. He said he never got any kind of response from him. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Kolibas to explain the incident on July 2nd? Mr. Kolibas said he wanted to back up a minute He went back to the Police Station and told the Chief and Sgt. Magner what happened. They told him to stay out of Teddy's way. So he did. July 2nd was Wednesday morning. He and Chick went to get gas at the garage at 7:00 A.M.. He said they went specifically at 7:00 A.M., because he knew Teddy wouldn't be there because his men don't' start until 8:00 AM. It just happened that Mr. Surick was there Mr. Surick was just going into his office when he saw them pull in. Mr. Surick stopped going into his office when Mr. Tuturro was getting out to pump the gas, when Mr. Surick told Mr. Tuturro "Get him out of here now, he's not allowed down here." Mr. Tuturro didn't know what was going on. He's 75 years old and he didn't have a clue. Mr. Tuturro asked him what this was about? He said he told Mr. Tuturro he didn't know and told him to put the gas in. He told Mr. Tuturro he was going inside to talk to Pat DeBella because he had some union business to discuss about Vitale and his fire calls. 30 Mr. Kolibas said he walked into the garage and Mr. Surick walked into his office. He said he came back out of the garage and Chick pulled the van in the front where they usually check the oil Chick had already checked the oil and the van was parked in ITont of the bay doors. Mr. Surick came out of his office again and started hollering about his father. He said he didn't remember his exact words, but it was nasty things about his mother and his father. He told Mr Surick to stop talking about his mother and father because there will be a problem. He told Mr. Surick he was going to lose his temper and that's what Mr. Surick wanted him to do and it's wasn't going to happen. He said he started to back the van up and Mr. Surick continued to yell and scream. He said he opened the door to the van and got out and walked towards Mr. Surick's office and told Mr. Surick to "knock the s--- off" He said he told Mr. Surick if he wanted to meet him somewhere, meet him after work and they will take care of this, but to forget about it for now. He said he got in the truck and left. He went back to the Police Station and told Sgt. Magner what happened. Sgt. Magner gets a call ITom Mr. Surick regarding what happened and something about his not being down there are borough business, but on union business and that's what instituted the unfair labor charge. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr.Kolibas if he recalled the meeting they had with the Mayor and Council. Mr. Kolibas said yes he did Mr. Mercatanti asked him to explain what occurred at that meeting to the Council. Mr. Kolibas said the Mayor and Councilmember Gutowski, Pat DeBella and he thinks John Riley were there. He wasn't sure about Mr. Riley. He said they were talking about all the grievances that were happening at that time. Mr. Surick was denying Kevin Vitale his vacation time. There was something about all of this stuff too There was something else about Kevin's check. Mr. Surick refused to give him his check after being suspended. He said they were in there talking and Mr. Mercatanti proposed that they would drop the unfair labor charge ifthe town and Mr. Surick would drop the disciplinary charge against him because it stemmed from that incident, it only made sense. That's how he thinks the Mayor put it Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr.Kolibas if there was anything else he would like to tell the Council regarding these two incidents. Mr. Kolibas said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas if he could tell them where he was positioned when he had a conversation with Mr. Surick and Mr. Carpenter? Where was he standing? 31 Mr. Kolibas there were two different conversations. One with Mr. Fiore , he was by the ITont door. The one with Mr. Carpenter, they were by Pat DeBlasio's office door. DECE11BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEAP. ING - WilliaQ Kolibas, Jr. Continued DECEt-1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - Williæn Kolibas, Jr. Continued ~,¡¡,,;.V Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas where the imtlal encounter take place? Mr. Kolibas said right at the door way because Teddy was cOllÙng in. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked by Pat's office? Mr. Kolibas said yes. By that back door. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Surick came in through the back door? Mr. Kolibas said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long did that encounter last? Mr. Kolibas said however long it would take to say the words Mr. Surick said to him and he told Mr. Surick to knock it off He said he guessed two minutes. Not long. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Surick continued on his way? Mr. Kolibas said yes, he walked past them. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Kolibas remained there with Mr. Fiore and Mr. Carpenter? Mr. Kolibas said in that general area. He thinks it was a little further where the glass window starts. Borough Attorney Coughlin said the ceremony took place at that point. He asked Mr Kolibas if subsequently he had a second encounter with Mr. Surick. Mr. Kolibas said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin said it was Mr. Kolibas' testimony that at that point, Mr. Surick said he should have buried Mr. Kolibas and his father? Was that at the second time? Mr. Kolibas said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas how long that encounter lasted? Mr. Kolibas said it wasn't long at all, it could have only been a minute. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked who was present during that encounter? Mr. Kolibas said Tony Radomski. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how long the ceremony took? How long was it in time from the first encounter to the second encounter? 32 DEC~1BER 8, 1997 Mr. Kolibas said about ten to fifteen minutes. DISCIPLINARY HEARING - Willi~ Kolibas, Jr. Continued Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas if he ever cursed at Mr. Surick in either one of these conversations? Mr. Kolibas said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he ever threatened Mr. Surick? Mr. Kolibas said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if he ever raised his voice? Mr. Kolibas said he might have raised his voice because he was being yelled at also. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he was moving on to the 2nd of July. He asked him at any point, during the morning he had the encounter with Mr. Surick, did he ever enter Mr. Surick's office? Mr. Kolibas said no, never. He said he was not allowed in Mr. Surick's office. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Kolibas why not? Mr. Kolibas said Mr. Surick told him to stay out of his office. He said he was the only Union President that wasn't allowed in a supervisor's office. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the whole encounter took place in the garage portion? Mr. Kolibas said no. It took place in front ofMr. Surick's office where the side door is where the workers go in. None of it took place in the garage itself Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the only other person there was Mr. Tuturro? Mr. Kolibas said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin had no further questions ofMr Kolibas. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti to call his next witness. Mr. Mercatanti called Chief Joseph Sica. Borough Attorney Coughlin swore Chief Sica in and asked him to spell his name. Joseph Sica - Police Chief S-I-C-A. 33 Mr. Mercatanti introduced himself to the Chief He said the Chief was here to testifY about Mr.Kolibas' whereabouts on July 1, 1997. He asked the Chief if he gave Mr. Kolibas a work assignment for July 1, 1997? DEC~lliFl; 8, 1997 DISCIPLINAHY HEtJm~G - ,/illion KolilxlG, Jr. Continued . ·,4;A~ Chief Sica said actually. Dennis McFadden, Mr. Kolibas' direct superior did. He received a call that they needed someone over at the annex and that is where Mr. Kolibas was assigned. Mr. Mercatanti asked Chief Sica what time did he receive the call? Chief Sica said it was that morning. Ray Tobias was out sick and they needed someone to do some work around there because they were just opening the building up. Willie and Chick were his utility people at the Police Station and he sent them to the annex. Mr. Mercatanti asked Chief Sica if he remembered who he received a call from? Chief Sica said no. Mr. Mercatanti said that is all he had for the Chief Borough Attorney Coughlin had no questions. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti ifhe had anyone else? Mr. Mercatanti called Ron Pusillo. Borough Attorney Coughlin swore Mr. Pusillo in and asked him to spell his name. Ronald Pusillo - P-U-S-I-L-L-O Mr. Mercatanti told Mr. Pusillo they were discussing the events that occurred on July I. 1997 at the annex opening. He asked him if he was there? Mr. Pusillo said he remembers it well. He said he was there. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo if he saw Mr. Kolibas there? Mr. Pusillo said yes he did Mr. Mercatanti asked who else did he recall was there? Mr. Pusillo said Vincent Manetta, Teddy Surick, there were a lot of people there. He said he can't remember all of them that were there. Mr. Mercatanti asked if Mr. Pusillo saw any confrontation between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick? Mr. Pusil10 said he heard them talking. J\.Jr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusil!o if he recalled what the conversation was about? Mr. Pusillo said aU he knew was Mr. Surick was hollering something about Mr. Kolibas being there. Mr. Kolibas was saying he was told to go there by the Police Chief. They were yelling at each other. 3¿¡ Mr. Mercatantj asked Mr. Pusillo if there was any cursing involved? .--- DECÐ1BER 8, 1997 Mr. Pusillo said not that he heard. Not in that building. DISCIPLINA11Y HEARWG - WillÍE:n Koli1x~s. Jr. Continued . Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo where did this confrontation take place? In front of Pat DeBlasio's office? Mr. Pusillo said no. It was in the lobby. Said it was off to the right. Right next to the Tax Assessor's desk. His wife and two sisters, his brother and sister-in-law were all in that same area. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo when he heard that conversation between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick did he notice any other Carteret employees there? Mr. Pusillo said George Carpenter. Mr. Mercatanti asked ifhe saw any other employees there? Mr. Pusillo said no. Mr. Mercatanti had no more questions. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo what time did he arrive at the annex that day? Mr.Pusillo said he didn't remember. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he remembered about what time? Was it noon? Mr. Pusillo said he didn't remember He said he couldn't tell him because he was not sure. He said he knows he was there for quite a while. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if it was in the morning or the afternoon? Mr. Pusillo said he believes it was late morning. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo ifhe was there at the time of the ceremony took place? Mr. Pusillo said yes. He thinks he was there. He was talking to the Mayor. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo ifhe saw the Mayor hang his photograph up? Mr. Pusillo said no, when he was there the picture was already up. He said Mr. Surick told him he was talking to the Mayor and he told Mr. Surick that he was. He said he told the Mayor that he was the 13th Mayor of Calteret 35 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo if the encounter he witnessed between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick was after his conversation with the Mayor? DECE11BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Pusillo said before. q,...."' Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo if he witnessed Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick engaged in conversation? Mr. Pusillo said yes. In the lobby in the annex. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked where in the lobby? Mr. Pusillo said in the lobby Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if it was close to where the bank tellers would have been. Mr. Pusillo said yes, he would say that. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo if that was before or after he had his conversation with the Mayor? Mr. Pusillo said it was before. He had the conversation with the Mayor later. After the incident was over, he went over and was talking to the Mayor. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo how many people were in the building at the time? Mr. Pusillo said it was loaded. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the people in the building were all engaged in conversation? Mr. Pusillo said yes. Everybody was talking to each other. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo how close was he to Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Pusillo said he told them he was by the desk, by his brother-in-law. Willie was about ten or fifteen feet in front of him on the right hand side. Teddy was on the other side. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked the other side of what? Mr. Pusillo said the other side of the lobby. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him how far apart were Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Pusillo said ten feet. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if they were talking to each other? Mr. Pusillo said yes. 36 Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo if he could hear what they said? DECENBER 8, 1997 Mr. Pusillo said no. He wasn't listening to them. A1l he knows is he looked up and saw them both arguing with each other. DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJillian Kolibas, Jr. Continued Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo if he couldn't hear what they were saying, how did he know they were arguing? Mr. Pusillo said because you could tell they were arguing with each other. He said he could tell them when someone was arguing. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe could hear what they said? Mr. Pusillo said all he remembers was something that Mr. Surick said "you don't belong here." Mr. Kolibas said that the Chief sent him there. He said he didn't know who Mr. Kolibas worked for. At the time he said he thought Mr. Kolibas worked for the Police Department and not for Mr. Surick. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo what his relationship with Mr. Kolibas was? Mr. Pusillo said he was friends with everyone in the town. He's ITiends with Mr. Surick also. He said he knew all of them sitting up there too. He said it was a sad situation in this town..... He asked to say something... Borough Attorney Coughlin said Mr. Pusillo wasn't here to make a speech or editorialize. Mr. Pusillo asked the Borough Attorney why was he bothering him then? Borough Attorney Coughlin said he wasn't bothering him. He asked Mr. Pusillo if they were arguing now? Mr. Pusillo said no, but they would start pretty soon. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Pusillo how long the conversation.. . Mr.Pusillo said he didn't know how long it took He said he wasn't paying that much attention to it Borough Attorney Coughlin said then Mr. Pusillo doesn't know very much about what happened. Mr. Pusillo said he knows that there was words between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Smick. That's what he knows. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he didn't have any other questions. Council President Gutowski asked if anyone else on the Council had any questions? They all replied no. 37 DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJillirun Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo if on his cross testimony he said he heard Mr. Surick say to Mr. Kolibas "what are you doing here?" Mr. Pusillo said yes. He said that. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo if he heard that. Mr. Pusillo said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Pusillo ifhe heard Mr. Kolibas say "the Chief sent me here". Mr. Pusillo said yes. Mr. Mercatanti called Vincent Manetta Borough Attorney Coughlin swore Vincent Manetta in and asked him to state his name and spell it. Vincent Manetta, M-A-N-E-T- T-A. Mr. Mercatanti said they were concerned with what happened on July 1,1997 at the annex open house. He said he wanted to get Mr. Manetta's version. He asked Mr. Manetta ifhe was there at the open house? Mr. Manetta said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta ifhe saw Mr. Kolibas there? Mr. Manetta said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if he saw any other Carteret employees? Mr. Manetta said many. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if he saw Mr. Surick there? Mr. Manetta said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked if he saw George Carpenter there? Mr. Manetta said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked ifhe saw Joe Golino there? Mr. Manetta said he thought so, but he wasn't sure. He said he didn't remember who was there exactly. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if he saw a confrontation between Teddy and Willie? Mr. Manetta said he saw them having an argument. Yes. From across the room. 38 DEC~ER 8, 1997 Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if he heard any of the conversation? DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Mr. Manetta said no, he did not. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if they looked like they were arguing? Mr. Manetta said they looked like they were arguing. Maybe he sensed an argument, but they looked like they were. Mr. Mercatanti asked if George Carpenter was there during that argument? Mr. Manetta said he was in the general area. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Manetta if Joe Golino was there? Mr. Manetta said he didn't know. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Manetta where was he at when he witnessed what he believed to be a confrontation? Mr. Manetta said he was in charge of running the open house, so he was all over. He thinks he saw them from across the room. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Manetta where was he at? Mr. Manetta said in the middles of the lobby. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Manetta where were they relative to each other? Mr. Manetta said by the first teller's cage. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if they were standing next to each other? Mr. Manetta said yes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked what time did that take place? Mr. Manetta didn't know. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if Mr. Manetta knew if it was before or after the ceremony was held? Mr. Manetta said no. Borough Attorney Coughlin said he didn't have any other questions. Borough President Gutowski asked if the Council had any questions. No one replied. 39 DECEl1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - IJillian Kolilk~s, Jr. Con tinued ".-"-,..... Mr. Mercatanti called Anthony Fiore. Borough Attorney Coughlin swore in Mr. Fiore and asked him to state his name and spell his last name. Anthony Fiore, F-1-0-R-E. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore if he saw Willie at the annex opening? Mr. Fiore said he did. Mr. Mercatanti asked him if he saw Teddy there? Mr. Fiore said yes. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore if he noticed any argument or conversation between Teddy and Willie? Mr. Fiore said he noticed a conversation. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore ifhe overheard any of the conversation? Mr Fiore said yes, he did. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore to state for the Council what was said to the best of his recollection, of that conversation? Mr. Fiore said to the best of his recollection, he was standing next to Mr. Kolibas Mr. Smick came in. Mr. Kolibas said to Mr. Surick "Teddy, is there some kind of problem?" Mr Surick replied, with something to the effect of, "Shut up, 1 have nothing to say to you." Mr. Kolibas said "Why not Ted?" Mr. Smick's reply was "I should have buried you and your father a long time ago." That was his last reply. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr Fiore if he knew, approximately, where this conversation took place? Was it the lobby? Mr. Fiore said he had never been in the. place before so it was probably toward the back end of the building, but not all the way towards the back. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr Fiore how far was he between Willie and Teddy? Five feet? Ten feet? Right next to him? Mr. Fiore said he was right next to them Mr. M ercatanti asked Mr Fiore if it was a threatening tone that Mr. Surick used? Mr. Fiore said yes. It was more a sarcastic tone then a threatening tone. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore why was he there? 40 Mr. Fiore said he was sitting in the Parks Department Office before going to the annex. There is a borough radio system in the Parks Department Office. He overheard Mr. Surick calling his men to go to the annex. They were asking him what he wanted them at the annex for and Mr. Surick said if it was good for Little Willie, it's good for the rest of them He said he proceeded to go to the annex and tell Mr. Kolibas what was going on. Mr. Mercatanti asked if there were any other Carteret employees there? Mr. Fiore said there were other departments. There were the people who work in the building. As far as anyone else, when he got there, no. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr. Fiore if there were any Road Department employees there? Mr. Fiore said when he arrived at the scene, no. Eventually, they started coming In. Mr. Mercatanti asked Mr Fiore what time was it that he arrived? Mr. Fiore said he didn't remember. It was maybe 10:45 A.M., he said he didn't really remember. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore at the time he witnessed the encounter between Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas, how close were they to each other? Mr. Fiore said Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick were a foot or two away. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore how close was he to them? Mr. Fiore said he was standing right ncxt to Mr. Kolibas. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore if there was anybody else near them at the time? Mr. Fiore said the place had people in it. As far as near him, it's a pretty small place. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore if he knew George Carpenter? Mr Fiore said he did Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore if he knew ifMr Carpenter was there that day') Mr. Fiore said he didn't recall Borough Attorney Coughlin askedMr. Fiure how long the encountcr lasted between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick? 41 Mr Fiore said thirty seconds. A minute maybe. DECEl1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEt.RING - \Jilliar:l Kolibe.s, Jr. Continued DEC~ER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas, Jr. Continued Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore ifhe could tell him how long he stayed at the annex that day? Mr. Fiore said he stayed about 45 minutes. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe was there prior to the ceremonies beginning? Mr. Fiore said he didn't remember if he was there for the beginning of the ceremony, but he was there from around 10:45 A.M until people started to leave Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him if he was present when they were officially opening it. Mr. Fiore said he didn't really remember. He didn't know ifhe got there just after. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore if he remembered the Mayor putting his picture up on the wall? Mr. Fiore said he didn't recall. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore if the picture was up when he got there? Mr. Fiore said he didn't remember. He didn't notice Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the encounter between Mr. Kolibas and Mr. Surick took place immediately upon Mr. Fiore's arrival? Mr. Fiore said he was there for about two or three minutes when Mr. Surick arrived. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Fiore ifhe knew what door he came in? Mr. Fiore said yes, he did It was the back door Borough Attorney Coughlin said he had no further questions. Council President Gutowski asked the Council if they had any questions. Councilmember Failace asked Mr. Fiore was saying that George Carpenter, Tony Radomski and Golino weren't there? Mr. Fiore said he knows they were there, eventually, he doesn't know if they were there when they had the argument He said he didn't believe they were. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Surick ifhe would like to recall.... Mr. Surick said they could have Bob Kately here. 42 Council President Gutowski said they were asking him if they wanted to recall any ofthe witnesses at this time. ~ -- DECEl1BER 8. 1997 Mr. Mercatanti said Mr. Kately wasn't one of the original witnesses. DISCIPLINARY HE/,RING - ílillimn Kolibas, Jr. Continued Borough Attorney Coughlin asked to hear ITom Mr. Carpenter again. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Carpenter to come back up and told him he was still under oath. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter if he could describe where the encounter took place? Where, physically, within the building? Mr. Carpenter said you come in the back door and walk up two steps and about ten feet, right by the first teller window Borough Attorney Coughlin asked him ifhe knew if there was a ceremony that took place that day? Mr. Carpenter said yes there was Borough Attorney Coughlin asked if the encounter Mr. Carpenter witnessed, prior to the ceremony or subsequent to the ceremony? Mr. Carpenter said it was before. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter if he could tell him where Mr. Golino was at the time Mr. Carpenter was witnessing the encounter between Mr. Surick and Mr. Kolibas? Mr. Carpenter said Mr. Golino was in the general area He said Mr. Golino could hear what was going on Borough Attorney Coughlin asked about Mr. Radomski? Mr. Carpenter said Mr. Radomski was in the basic area by Joe Golino. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked how far away were they ITom where the encounter took place? Mr. Carpenter said six - eight feet, maybe. Borough Attorney Coughlin asked Mr. Carpenter ifhe knew where Mr. Fiore was? Mr. Mercatanti said he had an objection because Mr. Carpenter sat through all their testimony, so all he has to do piece it together. Council President Gutowski told the Borough Attorney to ask him again. Mr. Mercatanti again raised his objection. Mr. Carpenter sat through everybody's testimony. ¿;3 Borough Attorney Coughlin said he had no further questions. Mr. Mercatanti had no further questions. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti if he had anything else to say before they went into deliberations? DECEI1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HEARING - William Kolibas. Jr. Continued ' NEEIING CLOSED tlEETING OPEI<ED Mr. Mercatanti told the Council they had to make a decision. He said he thinks they have a Supervisor out of control. Questioning the whereabouts ofan employee when the Chief of Police, said in testimony, that he got a call that the employee should be there. The Sergeant assigned the employee there Why should another supervisor question the whereabouts of an employee. That's number one. Number two - why should a supervisor tell all his men that "if Willie is there, everyone should be there". He said he thinks the Council is really going to have to address that issue. He told them they had a supervisor running amuck. Council President Gutowski asked Mr. Mercatanti to stick to the charge. Mr. Mercatanti said this is the charge. The charge is that the supervisor confronted a subordinate employee and yelled at the employee. We have witnesses that have said that. Of course, he has witnesses that say he didn't do anything. He said this is a reenactment of the grievances they had back in the summer. It's their word against our word. He is telling them that this supervisor was looking for a confrontation and he proved it from the statement ITom day one when he said "Willie's there, everyone else should be there" over the radio, when Willie was assigned to do his work. As far as the bits and pieces of getting into the testimony, he said it's their word against our word and they can go all night and keep bringing witnesses. He said they really have to question the sincerity and the integrity of the supervisor involved. Again, he restated his objection to the charge to begin with when they had a meeting with the Mayor and Mr. Gutowski and they said if we dropped our unfair labor practice, this charge would be dropped and here we are. Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Failace and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was adjourned into Closed Session at approximately 9:00 P.M Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Failace and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was opened at approximately 9:30 P.M. Borough Attorney Coughlin said after consideration of the evidence that was introduced at the hearing, the Council's concensus with regard to all charges relating to July 2, 1997 will be dismissed. The insubordination charges that relate to July 1st will be dismissed. There will be a finding of guilty with regard to the conduct unbecoming a borough employee with a suspension of three days. 44 -"''' Councilmember Feingold said he wanted it to go on record that he did not feel that the Borough sustained it's burden of proof, which he has been informed by the attorney is clear and convincing evidence, which is more than the preponderance of the evidence, but less than beyond a reasonable doubt. He felt that there was a credibility question and the proofs were in (inaudible) and therefore since there was not sufficient proof that there was (inaudible) burden of proof He felt as though Mr. Kolibas should have been found not guilty of conduct unbecoming a public employee. He was also the person who raised the issue of whether he should be found guilty of insubordination The Council agreed with him on that. As far as the penalty, he thinks that a 3 day suspension penalizing mere words, if we accept that the words were said, is too severe and a letter of reprimand would have been sufficient under the circumstances given the history between the parties. In his view there may have been some provocation in this matter. He thinks the Council has erred and made an erroneous decision Although he respects their decision, he respects the opinions of the Councilmembers, he didn't think this was correct. Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Fazekas and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, a recess was called at approximately 9:35 P.M. Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Failace and DuPont and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was opened at approximately 9:40 P.M. Council President Gutowski said the next grievance they were going to take under consideration was the one filed by Mr. Kolibas involving a transfer He told Mr Kolibas he had the option of having it opened or closed. Mr. Kolibas asked that it be held in Closed Session. Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Feingold and DuPont and unanimous vote of the five (5) Councilmembers present, the meeting was closed at approximately 9:41 PM. Councilmember Fazekas was noted absent at approximately 9:41 P.M. Councilmember Fazekas noted present at approximately 9:43 P.M. ¿,5 Upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Failace and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was opened at approximately 11:45 P.M. DECll1BER 8, 1997 DISCIPLINARY HE/,RING - IJilliaD Kolibas, Jr. Continued Recess t1eeting Reconvened Grievances- WilliaD Kolib.~s. Jr Kevin Vitale . Heeting Closed Councillænber Fazekas Noted Absent Councilmember Fazekas Noted Present tleeting Opened DECEl1BER 8, 1997 ADJOURNED There being no further business, upon MMS&C, by Councilmembers Gutowski and Feingold and unanimous affirmative vote of the full Council present, the meeting was adjourned at approximately 11:46 P.M. Respectfully submitted, ~-"~/~A~~' /KATHLEEN M. BARNEY, Municipal Clerk KMB/sj 46 --.------