HomeMy Public PortalAbout2021_tcwsmin0524Council Work Session
May 24, 2021
Council Chamber, 25 West Market Street, 7:00 p.m. Mayor Kelly Burk presiding.
Council Members Present: Ara Bagdasarian, Zach Cummings, Suzanne Fox, Vice
Mayor Martinez, Kari Nacy, Neil Steinberg and Mayor Kelly Burk.
Council Members Absent: None.
Staff Present: Town Manager Kaj Dentler, Town Attorney Christopher Spera,
Deputy Town Manager Keith Markel, Director of Finance and Administrative
Services Clark Case, Director of Economic Development Russell Seymour, Director of
Public Works and Capital Projects Renee LaFollette, Deputy Director Parks and
Recreation Kate Trask, Zoning Administrator Michael Watkins, and Clerk of Council
Eileen Boeing.
AGENDA ITEMS
1. Electronic Participation for Council Member Fox
Council Member Fox requested to participate in the Council Work Session
electronically. Mayor Burk, Council Member Bagdasarian, Council Member
Cummings, Council Member Nacy, Vice Mayor Martinez, and Council Member
Steinberg were physically present at the meeting.
MOTION2021-102
On a motion by Vice Mayor Martinez, seconded by Council Member Steinberg, the
following was proposed:
To allow Council Member Fox to electronically participate in the March 24, 2021, Town
Council Work Session.
The motion was approved by the following vote:
Aye: Bagdasarian, Cummings, Vice Mayor Martinez, Nacy, Steinberg and Mayor
Burk
Nay: None
Vote: 6-0-1 (Fox abstain)
2. Items for Discussion
a. Continuing Disclosure Requirements
Mr. Thomas W. Bruno of McGuireWoods gave a presentation on the
Town's Continuing Disclosure Policies and provided information on Securities
Laws and Requirements applicable to Municipal Bonds.
Council and staff discussed the item.
b. Arts and Cultural District — Wayfinding System and Murals on Private
Buildings
Ms. Kate Trask gave a presentation on the Arts and Cultural
Wayfinding System and Mr. Mike Watkins provided background information
on murals, as defined in the Town's Zoning Ordinance.
1 Page
Council Work Session May 24, 2021
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of the Council to add the Arts and Cultural District
Wayfinding System to the May 25, 2021, Council Meeting and to continue discussions
on Murals on Private Buildings at a future work session.
c. Virginia Main Street Program
Mr. Seymour gave a presentation on the nationally organized Virginia
Main Street Program.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of the Council to continue discussions on this item at a
future work session and to allow staff to do additional research and obtain feedback from
the Economic Development Commission.
d. Council Planning Retreat
Mr. Dentler presented Council with a work plan for the items identified
during the Council retreat.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of the Council to continue with the work plan as presented
and to have staffgive a presentation on Emergency Preparedness at a future work session.
e. Strategic Approach to Potential Property Acquisitions
Mr. Dentler presented Council with different strategies for future
potential property acquisitions.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of Council to allow staff to prepare recommendations for
property acquisitions to discuss at a future work session.
3. Additions to Future Council Meetings
Council Member Steinberg requested a letter of support for the city of Ranson,
West Virginia in opposition of Rockwool.
It was the consensus of the Council to add this item to the May 25 Council Meeting.
Council Member Cummings asked for staff to develop a questionnaire/survey
to be sent to applicants who come before the Board of Architectural Review (BAR) to
gauge their satisfaction with the BAR process. Draft questionnaire/survey to be
provided to Council before being used with applicants.
It was the consensus of the Council to have staff develop the questionnaire/survey.
2 (Page
Council Work Session May 24, 2021
Vice Mayor Martinez requested that the Planning & Zoning Department
present to Council a list of approval processes that it considers could be handled
administratively by staff.
It was the consensus of Council to add this to a future Work Session for discussion.
Vice Mayor Martinez requested to have Council consider classifying Town
Council members as full-time for benefit eligibility versus part-time.
There was no consensus of Council to add this item to a future Council meeting for
action.
4. Adjournment
On a motion by Council Member Bagdasarian, seconded by Council Member
Cummings, the meeting was adjourned at 8:52 p. m.
•
Clerk of Council
2021_tcwsmin0524
3 iPage
May 24, 2021 — Town Council Work Session
(Note: This is a transcript prepared by a Town contractor based on the video of the meeting. It
may not be entirely accurate. For greater accuracy, we encourage you to review the video of the
meeting that is on the Town's Web site — www.leesburgva.gov or refer to the approved Council
meeting minutes. Council meeting videos are retained for three calendar years after a meeting
per Library of Virginia Records Retention guidelines.)
Mayor Kelly Burk: Town Council work session of May 24. As per the revocation of the Governor's
executive orders requiring mask -wearing at indoor meetings, members of Council, staff, and public may
decide to no longer wear masks in the meeting if you are vaccinated. If you have not been vaccinated,
we would like to encourage you to do so, but the executive order continues to require that individuals
wear masks for their protection and others if they have not been vaccinated. However, Council will not
be asking for proof. If you've been vaccinated, it will be up to your private, moral decision to follow these
guidelines.
Our first item for today is to have -- I need a motion to move to allow Council Member Fox to
electronically participate in the May 24, 2021 Town Council work session. Vice Mayor Martinez moved.
Is there a second? Second by Council Member Steinberg. All in favor indicate by saying, "Aye."
Council Members: Aye.
Mayor Burk: Opposed? That passes 6-0-1. Ms. Fox, you are now part of the meeting. The first item for
discussion now is Continuing Disclosure Requirements.
Clark Case: Good evening, Mayor Burk, Council members, members of public, my name is Clark Case.
I'm the Director of Finance and Administrative Services for the Town. I'd like to introduce T.W. Bruno.
He is a principal partner with McGuire Woods, the Town's bond attorneys. He's an expert in continuing
disclosure responsibilities for local governments. He has been the Town's bond attorney for longer than
I have been with the Town. He is an expert in our bonds. I'm going to let him do the presentation, but I
did want to briefly introduce him so you know who he is.
Mayor Burk: Thank you very much. Welcome, Mr. Bruno.
Thomas W. Bruno: Thank you. Good evening, Mayor, members of Council, happy to be here. As Clark
said, bond counsels the Town and the primary purpose of my visit tonight is because in 2019, the Town
put in place continuing disclosure policies. Continuing disclosure the policies deal with how the Town
communicates with its bond investors. Part of those policies require that Town Council receive regular
information about the Town's obligations and the regulations that would impact Council members and
the Town under the securities laws.
Just a very 10K -foot view here, the securities laws and regulations that do affect the Town are limited
compared to, say, your corporate issuers like Facebook or GameStop, or whatever. There is something
called the Tower Amendment and then also the 10th Amendment to the Constitution limit what the
Federal government through the SEC can regulate, but the Town is subject to what are called the anti-
fraud provisions. They require full and fair disclosure to the bond market.
We most commonly come across these when the Town is going out to sell bonds to investors. Like
what happened in December of last year. We put together what's called an official statement. That's a
disclosure document that the underwriters use to sell and market the bonds to investors. However,
those anti -fraud provisions are-- they reach any public statement from the Town including a statement
from a staff member or from an elected official that could be reasonably foreseen to reach investors.
The Town, for example, it posts its annual audit on a website called EMMA, which is a repository for
disclosures to the municipal market. The Town's also required to make other types of disclosures on a
periodic basis on EMMA, and those are designed to reach investors as well. Any statement, a press
release, something on the Town's website, those all could be designed to reach investors and would
be subject to these anti -fraud provisions.
Page 11 May 24, 2021
What are the obligations under the anti -fraud provisions? It's that the disclosure is accurate and contains
all material information, and doesn't omit any information that makes those statements inaccurate or
misleading in a material way. What is material? It's there in my presentation, and there is no clear bright -
line rule. It is a facts and circumstances test, and it is considered at the time that you're making the
disclosure but there's no bright -line rule. In a pessimistic view of it allows your regulators to come back
and second guess decisions and statements.
I think in light of things like budgets and secondary statements that are made to investors, not the
primary disclosure documents made in the context of a sale, it's helpful just to go through this real quick
case study in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania where in an SCC enforcement action, the SCC staff found that
the town's or city's budgets that were posted on the city website, the state of the city address that was
posted on the website, and a mid -year report that was prepared for the City Council all contained
materially inaccurate information.
In that instance, Harrisburg, in 2011, declared bankruptcy and for the four years prior were not able to
get an audit from their auditor and so they had no audits, they made no postings on that EMMA website.
There was no other information available to investors but the budgets that were all on the website said
that they were AAA -rated when in fact, they were in the BBB category.
They said, in the state of the city address, they talked about the strength of the general fund, how well
it was performing, but omitted that there was a $260M contingent liability on a generator project where
they guaranteed the debt and the mid -year report omitted a line item where they were making payments
on that guarantee. There was almost 10% of the general fund expenditures for that time period. The
SCC staff said, in looking at that, that those pieces of information that were available to investors omitted
material facts, and the city was sanctioned under that.
What type of considerations should there be given to these against secondary disclosures? The first is
to acknowledge that the anti -fraud regulations, they reach any statement that's going to be reaching
investors. Elon Musk is in the news for tweets that he makes because they impact the market on Tesla
shares and it's those types of things. He's going to be deemed to be somebody in the know about what's
going on at Tesla just as elected officials are going to be deemed to be knowing what's going on at the
Town and so a statement that a public official makes, given the wrong circumstances could be, again,
subject to scrutiny under these regulations. Things like budgets and projections and interim reports.
There is a principle in disclosure called the total mix of information, and that's to say that disclosure is
not done in a vacuum. You're doing it in the context of all the other information that's available to an
investor and so the Town, unlike Harrisburg, has posted years and years of audited financial statements
on that website.
If there is information available to investors, going back years then the Town makes the other regular
reporting requirements that are made. So if an investor pulls down the budget from the website and
makes a decision based on that, and the budget contains something that's missing, well, more likely
than not, this principle of the total mix, sort of doctrine is going to-- say the SCC is going to look at that
and go, "Well, all of this other information was available and so you can't just rely on the budget that
might be missing something. You have to look at all the other information that's available."
In addition, the SCC staff has come out to say that they want to encourage localities to provide
projections especially given the impact that COVID might have had on financial performance and tax
revenue, and so forth. Again, putting disclaimers on materials also helps put the information into context.
Those are the types of things that the Town can do potentially to take advantage of those safe harbors
around disclosure that's being made on the website on a secondary basis to investors.
Again, what types of things should you be doing as elected officials? Become familiar with the Town's
disclosure policy, understanding how it works. Become familiar with the documents that the Town uses
to sell bonds to investors, that official statement but then also other types of things that go up on EMMA
and then what other things might be important to an investor. Those are also things that are probably
important to you because they all bear on the financial health of the Town. Question staff, question
advisors like me about, "What does this mean? What should we be doing? What's going on?"
Page 21 May 24, 2021
Try to encourage a disclosure environment that removes political considerations from disclosure as well
as avoiding what's called the silo effect. That is, again, silo effect, meaning getting information for
disclosure but getting it from a source that doesn't understand the context. For example, we need to
put in that official statement, the number of connections that the Town's water system has.
Getting just the number of connections from the Director of Utilities without the Director understanding
that what we're trying to do is to communicate to investors the strength of the system and whether it's
growing or shrinking. They need to understand that they're not just reporting a number, but that number
is being used for something bigger. Putting that into context. Avoiding just the input-output, updating
the number without thinking about, "What else should we be saying about the Town and its ability to
pay moving forward?"
A disclosure should be done on a group basis. Obviously, there's got to be a point person. Somebody's
got to be primarily responsible. Getting input from third -party advisors, getting input from other staff
members on the disclosure basis. Again, the policies that we have in place have a disclosure group
that is responsible for producing these documents. Clark is the point person and that makes sense
given his role with the Town. He's also responsible for getting input from the Director of Utilities and
Public Works, and the Police, and getting information from the County to the extent if that's necessary.
As well as getting information from third -party advisors like financial advisors, and lawyers, and the like.
That's my tight 10 minutes on security laws.
Mayor Burk: Thank you. You had 31 seconds left. Ms. Nacy, do you have any questions?
Council Member Kari Nacy: I don't.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Ara Bagdasarian: No questions.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Neil Steinberg: Can you spell the acronym EMMA?
Thomas W. Bruno: Yes, it's E -M -M -A.
Council Member Steinberg: It is E -M -M -A. What does that stand for?
Thomas W. Bruno: Electronic Municipal Market Access, I think.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay, so is the site --
Thomas W. Bruno: It's emma.msrb.org. It's run by the MSRB, which is the Municipal Securities
Rulemaking Board which is deputized by the SCC as the regulatory body for the Municipal Securities
market.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. You mentioned that, as elected officials, we might behoove
ourselves to be familiar with the information being sent. Obviously, we rely on the experts on our staff
whom we place a great amount of trust. It's a lot of information. You just brought up the municipal waste
system with all of its connections, so there's a lot of detailed engineering and very specific information,
which we're not experts in or even necessarily aware. How do you become more familiar? To what
degree should we, as elected officials, be with that avalanche of material?
Thomas W. Bruno: That's a great question. I think the SCC would say that the first step is having a
good set of policies in place, and just understanding the policies. Like you say, you're the elected
officials. You're running at a higher level and you're relying on staff and advisors to know the details.
Nobody's expecting you to know how many connections there are, but knowing that there's a system in
place that fosters the ability to come up with that information, and disclose it in a way that's in
compliance, that's really what you want to be looking for. Making sure that you're getting staff in the
right position to succeed vis-a-vis the security regulations and the disclosure requirements.
Page 31 May 24, 2021
Council Member Steinberg: Understood. There's obviously --
Clark Case: Can I chime in just for a second here?
Council Member Steinberg: Absolutely.
Clark Case: One of the things you have to be tuned into is that periodically, I send you information
about continuing disclosures. For example, you'll get an email from me that says, "The continuing
disclosure has been posted." What that means is that I went out to the EMMA website and I took all the
information we're required to give to the market, and I put it out there in a timely fashion. I'll send you a
notice that that happened. If you don't see that happen before January, there's a problem.
When we get to CAFR, we present it to you one night, the very next morning, or even that evening, we
will post it on EMMA. If you don't hear from me about it, there's a problem. This whole session has a
memo about what continuing disclosure is attached to in your agenda. The policy is also attached to an
agenda. The policy requires me to give it to you every year. If you don't see that update in a given year,
there's a problem.
Two things you really have to know is that we're doing it and you're getting that confirmation from me
that you're doing it. Whether it be me or a successor. Every year, as elected officials, you should be
getting those notices that say the disclosure is being done. That's really critical. Then knowing generally
what that disclosure should be and it's really easy. You just really type EMMA and hit Google. It will
bring it back and be in the list.
You can literally go to the site and you can see all of the Town's documents. You literally drill down to
town Leesburg and search for town Leesburg and it will bring all those documents up and you can see
that they've been posted. It will also tell you whether or not we posted it timely. There's ways for you to
check behind me if you need to but the number one thing is knowing that you're getting those things
from us regularly.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. Thanks. I believe that answers the question. Thank you very much.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Zach Cummings: No, Neil asked all of mine.
Mayor Burk: Yes, okay, and vice Mayor?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I have no questions.
Mayor Burk: Thank you very much, we appreciate you coming and explaining all that to us. It sounds
very complicated but hopefully, we'll get it down.
Thomas W. Bruno: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Thank you.
Thomas W. Bruno: Thank you very much.
Mayor Burk: All right. Our next presentation is, or item for discussion is the Arts and Cultural District
Wayfinding System and Murals on Private Buildings.
Kate Trask: Good evening Madam Mayor, Council. I have a two-part presentation for this evening. I'm
going to get us started with the Arts and Cultural District - Wayfinding System and then Michael Watkins
is going to follow me with a discussion about murals. Just a little background about the Arts and Cultural
District. March 2011, the Council established the Arts and Cultural District for Leesburg. In 2019, COPA
came forward with a marketing strategy which Council approved and through that, they developed a
logo as well as a plan to identify the Cultural District with banners.
Page 41 May 24, 2021
They had put forward in their March 2021 update to Council that they put forward 25 poles to place their
Arts and Cultural District banners on. Of those, 18 were Dominion power poles. We only got eight
Dominion power poles approved. All the Town poles were approved but only eight Dominion poles. We
needed to quickly come up with a new strategy on how to identify our Arts and Cultural boundaries and
with support from COPA, staff developed what we're proposing tonight as a wayfinding system.
We want to do a wayfinding system in phases. Our first phase would obviously to launch our Arts and
Cultural District and that would include putting the banners on the approved poles, both the Town's and
Dominion's as well as creating small Arts and Cultural District signs that would go on our currently
mounted wayfinding signs and have this done the 1st of July.
I'm going to take you through the actual locations of these. The map you see in front of you is the Arts
and Cultural District, that's the brown and the blue. The heavy line is the historic district boundary, so
you can see where the two cross over. These blue dots are the approved Dominion poles, primarily
these are going to be along Catoctin Circle. That's what those are going to look like.
If we move in, the green dots are the Town of Leesburg poles. We approved more but for a consistency
and easing in, we're only going to do three at this time. There we go, that's what those are going to look
like. They're all the black acorn lights. Wayfinding poles, these are where we would like to put small
signs. Now, please this is not to scale, this is what we pulled together as staff. That's what we already
have existing, there's wayfinding signs throughout Town. There's a number of locations with all the
yellow dots and we're looking to out the smaller sign on that post. Again, that would be the poles,
Dominion in the Town and then the wayfinding signs would be the yellow dots.
Phase two would be obviously filling in more holes because we aren't able to fill in all the boundaries
that the district goes to. We're looking at creative ideas. The sidewalk inlays would be inside the brick
sidewalk through the cement sidewalk in a few places. Look for locations for more Wayfinding poles
particularly along Catoctin Circle where we don't have a lot of light poles to work with, as well as working
with the VDOT on the supplemental guide signs. Right now, VDOT is telling us that those signs can't
exist on the bypass. We're trying to work with them on those business entrances into Town where it's
actually more Town property and Town -managed roadways. We'll be working on that as well.
Hopefully, getting all of that started by January of '22 and completed by January of '23. Let me show
you a few more options here. We talked about the inlaid sidewalk markers. These are those red dots.
A lot of these locations are where you have private residences. They don't take to banners or signs.
We've taken out that whole concept of placing a banner on a public or on a private building because it
wasn't going to make sense to put it on someone's home.
We're looking at more like something like this. You're familiar with perhaps our MLK walk in Town.
Taking that same concept that already exists and creating something-- To be determined, these are
just optional sketches that we've put in to put these so that when you're walking in Leesburg, so it's not
just above your head, visual, but you actually see it when you're walking as well. Maybe a lot of a little
less visual clutter in some of the locations.
Finally, we get to phase three which is going to be pretty much the maintenance of the district. In our
outline fiscal years '23 and '24, there are some Capital Improvement projects for some of our sidewalk
replacements and that's going to bring us some of those nice black acorn lights along east and west
market streets, West Loudoun as well as North King Street. As those light poles come on board, we'll
be able to add banners to those locations as well. Then, of course, we need the maintenance of them.
Our banners and signs do tend to either get worn -torn or they are wind -torn, or they get beat up by
vehicles sometimes. We'II need a little maintenance money to continue those along the way. I think that
takes me to Mike.
Mayor Burk: Mike, you have four minutes.
Michael Watkins: Madam Mayor and Council, I've got the mural portion of this presentation. In the
zoning ordinance, there is a definition for a mural, and it's: A graphic painted on or affixed to the exterior
of a public, and I emphasize, public building or wall generally for the purposes of decoration or artistic
expression, including but not limited to painting, fresco or mosaic not interpreted by the Zoning
Administrator to contain a commercial message and installed following the Public Art Policy as reviewed
Page 51 May 24, 2021
and approved by the Leesburg Commission on Public Art in accordance with the Leesburg Public Art
Guidelines.
What does that mean? Murals are not currently permitted on private buildings. Murals are limited to
public buildings at this point in time. Murals are subject to your Public Arts Guidelines. Those were
initially adopted in 2008 and then revised in March of 2018 principally to include Council as the endorsee
of the artwork. What do other communities do? Well, murals are not limited in some instances.
Therefore, they're permitted on public and private buildings. Some define murals in their zoning
ordinances but most do not.
Murals are prohibited from having commercial messaging as determined by the zoning administrator.
They rely on a public art commission to administer guidelines for public buildings and they include
additional review by an architectural board or commission within historic districts.
Some possible action from Council could include leaving what's in place today. The existing practice
would be public buildings only, no private buildings. Or, Council can amend the definition of a mural in
the Zoning Ordinance to permit murals on private buildings. That would include a text amendment. Then
additionally, Council could also amend the Public Art guidelines to create certain guidelines for murals.
In summary, if you were going to initiate changes to either the art guideline policies or the ordinance, a
clear direction from Council would be appreciated. Both Kate and I are here to answer any questions
you may have.
Mayor Burk: Thank you. You're both willing to answer questions? Correct. Mr. Steinberg? Oh, wait,
man, let me start with Ms. Fox because I forgot her at the last one. Ms. Fox, do you have any questions?
Council Member Suzanne Fox: Yes, I have a few questions. Thank you. Can you hear me?
Mayor Burk: We can hear you very loud and clear.
Council Member Fox: The first question I had, the zoning amendment, one thing with preservation --
I noticed that the Arts and Cultural District overlaps the Old Historic District of course and some of it is
outside of it, but I'm wondering if preservation staff was consulted about the Zoning Amendment and
the signage and things like that.
Mayor Burk: Council Member Fox, if I understand correctly, you're asking about the wayfinding system,
if we've talked to the architectural review board?
Council Member Fox: Yes. Or even Lauren on staff with preservation.
Kate Trask: Yes. Lauren and I have had multiple conversations and these signs are considered exactly
what we're calling them, wayfinding signs, and they do need to go through the certificate of
appropriateness process.
Council Member Fox: Oh, okay. I have different information than that. I have BAR feedback because
I did ask BAR and conferred with Lauren that she wasn't consulted at all, so I was confused there. Also,
the wayfinding package that you have, there was some confusion or actually concern from the BAR
because of course it does overlap with the Old Historic District. They're concerned that the proposed
signage made it seem like the [unintelligible] in the Old Historic District and they would hopefully, they
were hopeful that it could be redesigned so that there was no confusion for that. That's my input on that.
As far as the murals are concerned, I was wondering how the murals are going to be vetted. I just heard
Mike say that the BAR at other places usually vet the murals. How will that happen if they have public,
oh I'm sorry, private murals?
Michael Watkins: In the small sample that I conducted in preparation for this item, I sampled
communities that have a historic district. In most of those communities, the BAR, their architectural
board or Board of Architectural Review would only look at those pieces of art that are on public buildings.
If on private property, there was very little regulation whatsoever.
Page 61 May 24, 2021
Council Member Fox: I see. Okay. We don't know how they would be vetted except it would come to
Council or we would just kind of-- because I can tell you right now that the BAR has no idea you're even
considering private. At least, the Chair is very surprised by the consideration of murals on private
buildings. I wanted to let you know that that was feedback that I got from the BAR.
I guess my concern, clearly, I don't think we're thinking it all the way through quite yet. I did vet it a little
bit and found out that there's no documented history of murals or even advertisements on side of the
buildings here in Leesburg. I would love to know that example if there is one, I just don't know one and
I haven't been able to uncover one.
We have residential -style buildings and according to the BAR, most of them have historic significance
and have their own rich histories, so painting on them, it's pretty much a no go for me from my
perspective. If what we're really trying to do maybe is change the Downtown instead of enhancing it, I
thought we wanted to enhance it. I thought that was one of those values we talked about in our retreat,
but it seems like there's a full-blown change going on here. I don't think we should try and pretend then
that we're really caring about the historical value of the Downtown.
I said it before, and I'll say it every time, that when it comes to the property owners in the H1 having to
replace a window, their siding, the color of their house, roof, anything, we pretty much rake them over
the coals in the name of historic preservation. I'm a little worried about the disconnect there. I think if
we're just going to do what we want to do and we're not going to be consistent, I don't think that's good
policy going forward.
When I think about all this in the nutshell, I'm not quite sure how an Old Historic District is simpatico
with an Arts and Cultural District. It seems like there's a lot of butting of heads to me for that. That's just
my thoughts on that. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Thank you, Council Member Fox. Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thank you, Mayor Burk. I don't really have any questions about the
wayfinding program. I think that's fairly straightforward and helps us to delineate a certain commitment
to art. Obviously, the most complex issue here is the murals on private. Are we talking only about B1,
H1 areas, or anywhere in Town?
Michael Watkins: That's something that Council would need to give a direction to staff on, is that if
you're going to initiate changes either to your Art Policy and/or to the Zoning Ordinance and you wanted
to open up opportunities for private property, that would need to be part of your discussion.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. In the same vein, I presume then we need to decide are we talking
about private residents? Are we only talking about commercial buildings? Are we talking about the
existing structures or are we talking about new development? There are obviously a lot of different
approaches that we could take and none of these decisions have been made, we're at the very early
stages of this discussion, I presume?
Michael Watkins: Correct.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. Now I saw in the staff report that we would certainly be
discouraging any kind of commercial vein, so advertising would not be allowed obviously. I don't know
if we need to get the Town Attorney involved. The Town can have sole discretion on making decisions
about what they will or will not accept in any given situation, or would we be in a position where if we
accepted a piece of art on a private building, then all of a sudden denying another piece of art on a
private building becomes a problem? Are there first amendment issues going on here that we have to
think about, Mr. Town Attorney?
Mayor Burk: Yes.
Page 71 May 24, 2021
Christopher Spera: I'll say yes. I'm not going to say with too much greater specificity than that because
I need to look at it, but you can see the potential for inconsistency there raising first amendment issues.
I would be cautious about that. I'll look into that.
Council Member Steinberg: In shaping any kind of ordinance, we would want to be very careful about
making sure the Town could accept or deny at its discretion, I presume.
Christopher Spera: We'll have to walk that line very carefully. Yes, sir.
Council Member Steinberg: Yes. Okay. Then when we come to art on private buildings who then
becomes responsible for maintenance and the overall lifespan of a particular piece of art, things like
that? I'm throwing these questions at you. I'm not expecting you to have specific answers although you
might have some suggestions based on other jurisdictions.
Michael Watkins: In this regard, I was able to speak with the coordinator with the city of Roanoke.
They're test piloting a program where the mural is licensed, but again, that's only on public buildings.
When it comes to private artwork, again, I found very little regulations. They were content -neutral if
there were any at all. Most of the artwork on private buildings, no regulations whatsoever.
Council Member Steinberg: Even in the Historic District?
Michael Watkins: With the exception of the Historic District.
Council Member Steinberg: Excuse me. I misunderstood that.
Michael Watkins: Just like our policy today with the Public Art Guidelines, the Board of Architectural is
included and they're given the opportunity for non -binding feedback or input.
Mayor Burk: Are you finished or you're not finished?
Council Member Steinberg: I think there is one more, if I get through this. Call somebody else for a
minute.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Thank you. I saw the Economic Development Director. What is the
impact of public art on economic development for towns and cities?
Russell Seymour: It can be very positive. If you have an opportunity to bring people downtown, if you
have this designated area being able to bring those people downtown to see something, to physically
be a part of that, obviously it has a very positive spin-off. We'll also tell you that if you're having an arts
district much like any type of incentive program that you're putting out there, you're giving other types
of venues, providers, artistic providers a reason to come down and congregate in that area. When you
look at it from that standpoint, it can be very positive.
Council Member Cummings: Thank you. The Town Attorney answered one of my questions. I just
find it fascinating when folks talk about private rights and property rights that we're having this
discussion at this level on what a private citizen can do to his or her own building. Sounds like there's
a lot that we need to determine here to make a policy work.
I don't have any real specific questions. I'd love to hear more about other communities what they're
doing with their both private and public mural initiatives. I'm definitely supportive of more public art,
more art in historic districts and developments. I think it drives folks and give them a reason to come
and visit and spend their money. I think if we do it appropriately, I think we can make a policy work. I'm
less concerned about rampant art that is distasteful and upsetting to folks. I think we may be thinking
too much about the problem and not about the positive. That's just my thoughts tonight.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Page 81 May 24, 2021
Vice Mayor Fernando "Marty" Martinez: One of the questions I had was in the ordinance -- First off,
let me say this, on the wayfinding, I'm going to be fully supportive of it. I think it's the right thing to do.
Now, let's talk about the mural, not that I'm discounting you, Kate. The question I had was about the
permanence. I would say that if we craft any ordinance that I would like to see some town or whoever
is responsible for approving that to have a way to ensure that if it's going to be considered a permanent
mural that it's reviewed every couple years just make sure that it's up kept.
If it's not going to be permanent, what's going to be our length of time to have it up? Six months, a year,
after two years you got to take it down and put a different one up. I think those are things that as the
Town Attorney probably agrees to is that we have to make sure that when we do that, we have to be
very specific in what we want and what we asked for of anybody putting up a mural.
I agree with Mr. Cummings in that we need to--- I find it that if a business owner owns a building or is
leasing the building and gets approval of the property owner, that he should be able to put whatever he
wants on there long as it's appropriate. The content is appropriate for the Town. I understand that if we
craft an ordinance like this, we will have to have a Historic District and an outside Historic District.
Making sure we specify that in a Historic District, there's going to be a lot more restrictions on what you
can put up in the historical content of those murals.
The other question is that okay, let's say we make COPA, the one who is looking at the mural to be put
up. Who goes to the BAR to get a certificate of appropriateness in the historic area? Does COPA do it
for the mural owner or does he go to COPA then he goes to BAR, and then he comes to Town Council
to get the final approval? Those are things again we're going to have to make sure we're very specific
on how we do that.
Are we going to have COPA have an approval or denial authority on the content of the mural or the
mural placement? If we're going to do that, again, we have to be very specific on what we allow them
to do. I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Spera, we'll have to go back into the COPA's charter
or its rules and policies and change it allowing them to have that authority.
Christopher Spera: That's correct. You would need to change COPA's mandate if you're going to give
them that additional role.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Right, and that is something we would really have to consider. Those are my
comments. I'm very supportive of a mural policy. I have been to the cities of Prescott, Flagstaff, some
places in LA. Philadelphia has a whole row of warehouses with murals on them. They can be done very
attractive. When I saw the one in Prescott, I thought, "Wow, this is something I would love to see in our
parking garage." It was a historical wagon train all the way to the cars. One long wall and I thought that
was very tastefully done and appropriate where was that. I'm very pro mural. I love to have property
owners have the ability if they have a mural they want to put up to be able to do it within the guidelines
of any ordinance we create. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: No thoughts on the subject. No. Thank you, though. I appreciate all
the work you put into it so far. I really appreciate the creative solutions about creating a sense of place
with the sidewalk plates. Who on staff does the mock-ups?
Kate Trask: Actually, Barb Smith, she's the one who did the graphics for us.
Council Member Bagdasarian: She did an excellent job on that.
Kate Trask: Thank you.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Just a few, a few thoughts, it really comes down to what does the
community want? From what we've seen over the last decade or longer, the visual arts culture,
walkability, music, it's all in the Town Plan. I was going to talk about how does this align with the Town
Plan? Based on the feedback that we've heard from the community, this does align very well. The thing
is the Arts and Cultural District is not something new. This has been on the books for 10 years and
Page 91 May 24, 2021
we're finally now actually getting it to the place that it needs to be, actually launching this Arts and
Cultural District, and in creating that sense of place.
The question is, how can we help facilitate the Arts and Cultural District living with the Historic District?
It shouldn't be one or the other. I think that they can coexist. In fact, they can complement one another.
Figuring out how we can do that's going to be important. Once again, it creates, the sense of place.
As far as art on public buildings, I think that is something I support wholeheartedly. On the way to the
meeting, I walked by Delirium and got to see the artwork on the fence and one of the sitting areas as
well on the windows of Delirium cafe. That's not signage. That is clearly, that's art, and it helps enhance
the overall sense of place. Murals, once again, I'm a big proponent of murals. I think more people are
going to be living in the Historic District. We'II talk about the Historic District right now and the Arts and
Culture District. Having a sense that's inviting, that tells stories of our history, that's where we could
connect history with art in our unique sense of place. I do think it's something that we should pursue,
we should pursue both of those aspects. I have one quick question for you regarding the VDOT signage.
Kate Trask: Renee is going to get that.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Renee, awesome. Regarding the VDOT signage, I know there's the
brown historic district sign on, I think it's on the bypass.
Renee LaFollette: It's on the bypass.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Would an Arts and Cultural District sign be not in the same category
as that sign?
Renee LaFollette: VDOT's policies, as they have been explained to us and what we've been able to
find in the written documents online, is that they will sign for historic districts. They will not sign for arts
and cultural or agricultural or any of those other types of districts but they will sign for historic districts.
That's one of the things that I'll keep working with VDOT on, which is why the bypass may be off-limits
because of its limited access nature. We'll look at Market Street. We'll look at King Street that we have
control over as well since we maintain those roadways. Market Street might become more of a
challenge now once we finished the Battlefield and 7 interchange project because that now is going to
make that a limited access corridor. We have started the dialogue with VDOT and we're going to
continue to see what we can get put up.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Great. This is truly enhancing what already exists. You come
Downtown in the Arts and Cultural District any day during the week and there's so much happening and
people are coming for that whole experience. The last thing is, come on Dominion. What's up? That
next, we need them on board. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Kari?
Council Member Nacy: Thank you. I just have one quick question. Our Town has a whole Historic
District. It's registered. I don't remember what the-- Does that come into play at all if we were to do
something in historic specifically district?
Michael Watkins: This official designation, no, ma'am.
Council Member Nacy: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: I do have some questions here. We only got eight Dominion poles approved. I'm not quite
sure where you would have put the other ones because when I look at the map, if we can go back to
that, it seems awkward where the signs are. It doesn't, does it? Because we have them on the blue
ones then there's nothing until you come in and then there's a lot Downtown. I have to say I'm glad to
see the wayfaring signs put on, so we're not creating new signs but at the same time, there's a lot of
sign pollution Downtown.
I'm concerned that does this add to that or how can we-- It's hard for me to imagine what it's going to
look like is what I'm trying to say. The sidewalk things, those are great. The banners up in the certain
Page 101 May 24, 2021
areas are really-- you see them all the time. They're great. They're lovely additions to towns. You've got
four orange ones and I guess they're different intersections. Is that why you have four going into Town?
You missed it? It's up further?
Kate Trask: That's Harrison and Edwards Ferry Road that clump there by where Dodona --
Mayor Burk: These are on the sidewalk?
Kate Trask: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Those are sidewalk ones. Then the wayfaring signs are on poles around Town and that
would be on Harrison Street and --
Kate Trask: Those are the yellow dots on this map. We use the ones that are existing right now and in
the future, hopefully, fill in some of those empty spaces that you're noting. Particularly if you look on
Catoctin Circle, if you go between West Market, and I'd say West Market in Harrison, we only have one
sign. We got to develop it.
Mayor Burk: I just want to keep in mind that we need to have the notice that we do have this Arts and
Cultural District. We also need to keep in mind that we don't want to get to the point where it's so
cluttered that it no longer looks attractive. I'm sure that you're doing that, but I just want to bring that
forward.
The murals. I don't think anybody can deny that I have supported the arts and will continue to support
the arts and really believe in the arts and know that it's an economic driver, and that it's a great thing,
and I really appreciate it. I have real misgivings about allowing it to be on private property unless it was
commercial property because I think we're getting into someone that wants to put something on their
house that may not be what's appropriate or what's distasteful to me may not be distasteful to you. Now,
we've got neighbors against neighbors because I want to put something on the side of my house. That
really worries me and concerns me.
Then the fact that it will come to this board to make that decision worries me even more because we
will be the arbitrators of what is distasteful or what's not distasteful. It gives me a little pause when it's
on private property. I do believe that free speech will come into play and that someone will come in with
something that really could be pretty wild and have problems for certain people. Then we have certain
guidelines but it still falls in the cracks that it's free speech. I would be okay with the murals if we kept it
to commercial buildings and not advertisements.
I would be very, very hesitant and ask my colleagues to be very careful about considering allowing it to
be on private property. I think you're opening a can of worms that you will so, so regret when you're
done. Talking to various other Mayors that do have it, that is one of the things that they talk about, that
they really do regret because there's so few requirements you can put on it and it does cause problems
in neighborhoods. In the whole thing of determining what's appropriate, they've all said was a very
difficult and very divisive element to it. If we go forward with this, I would hope that we would keep it as
commercial and government -owned buildings. That's easier to determine what can go there and how it
can go there.
Michael Watkins: I believe the resolution pending for initiation tomorrow has included on there an
initiation to the zoning ordinance. If there's specific Council direction as we prepare the ordinance if
you'd like to do so, now's a good opportunity to help guide staff in preparing those amendments. There's
lots of good feedback that you provided this evening. That's the guidance that I would ask and relay to
you all is that if you do initiate changes, that we've got some pretty good direction from the dais.
Vice Mayor Martinez: I have to agree with the Mayor, and that one of the things I would like you to do
in that resolution, or ordinance or whatever we need to do that it'd be commercial, specific, non -private,
as far as property.
Mayor Burk: Thank you, and Mr. Steinberg?
Page 111 May 24, 2021
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. I don't recall seeing anything in the staff report that showed us
examples of art on private buildings? Did I miss something or do we not have examples of that?
Michael Watkins: I purposely did not. Again, not knowing the direction Council would take, my job this
evening was to illustrate the regulations that are in place and to ask for your guidance and input with
any recommended or initiated changes to the regulations that we have in place.
Council Member Steinberg: Have we had any conversations, out of curiosity, with the city of Frederick
because I know they have a pretty robust art scene and public art there on a variety of buildings. I'm
not sure if they're all publicly owned or not, honestly.
Michael Watkins: I purposely stayed in the Commonwealth so that we have like regulations. The City
of Frederick, their zoning regulations are much different. Maryland versus Virginia and then based on
some of the COVID restrictions that are in place, other jurisdiction staff isn't as readily available as we
are. So it's difficult communicating with some of the other jurisdictions. Again, the feedback that I got
from the staff that I was able to talk with is that art work on private properties, there's not a whole lot of
content -based regulations whatsoever.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. I think we've established that therein lies the trick of the whole
thing, the private property situation would give us the greatest headache. I don't know if we want to get
four head nods now to not actually try to finalize this tomorrow but to continue the discussion so we can
flush this out and understand exactly where we're going, as opposed to try to [crosstalk].
Council Member Fox: Madam Mayor, I do have an extra question.
Mayor Burk: Yes, ma'am.
Council Member Fox: As I was listening to everything, I'm hearing commercial versus private property,
I am wondering if commercial property isn't private property? I'm not understanding the distinction.
Mayor Burk: I think yes, of course, it is, but I think we're talking about buildings that are used for
commercial purposes as opposed to homes.
Council Member Fox: Got you. I was wondering if Mr. Spera, if he could answer if there would be any
problem with making that distinction?
Christopher Spera: Generally, in the first amendment realm, you can restrict commercial speech at a
much higher level than you can non-commercial speech. I believe that is the primary distinction between
what you put on the side of a commercial building versus what you might or might not allow on the side
of a residential structure. I think that's why that tends to be a bright line to the extent that a line is drawn.
Council Member Fox: Okay.
Mayor Burk: All right, Mr. Steinberg, are you finished?
Council Member Steinberg: I just wanted to also be assured from our Economic Development Director
that he's becoming an expert on the subject of non -fungible tokens?
Russell Seymour: Could you spell that, please?
Mayor Burk: Was that a facetious question?
Council Member Steinberg: It was, but I would expect he's studying it just a little bit. Anyway, I think
this whole thing points out the complexity and the potential dangers.
Mayor Burk: All right. I need to see if there are four people-- Mr. Steinberg made a suggestion that you
want to continue this discussion. You do not want to vote on this tomorrow. Are there four people that
want to continue the discussion at this point? Okay, Mr. Steinberg?
Page 121 May 24, 2021
Vice Mayor Martinez: I want to do something tomorrow.
Mayor Burk: Well then don't raise your hand.
Council Member Bagdasarian: A point of clarification though.
Mayor Burk: Excuse me.
Council Member Bagdasarian: A point of clarification, is the way that the draft motion reads is that we
would be initiating the zone ordinance tax amendment, correct?
Mayor Burk: Right.
Council Member Bagdasarian: We wouldn't be actually --
Mayor Burk: No, you're not voting on it but you're initiating it as it's written.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Tomorrow?
Mayor Burk: Right. If you want to, if you don't want to add things tonight, and you want to postpone it
for additional discussion, that's what Mr. Steinberg is asking for.
Vice Mayor Martinez: We will still be having a public hearing?
Mayor Burk: We couldn't have the public hearing--
Kaj Dentler: Not tomorrow, no.
Mayor Burk: --because you don't know what it's going to be yet.
Kaj Dentler: You would just be giving --
Vice Mayor Martinez: But eventually?
Mayor Burk: Yes, eventually, we would end up with a public hearing. Let me ask again, Mr. Steinberg
is asking to not approve it tomorrow. At this point, we could add things. As Mr. Watkins said we could
add things that we want into the initiation but if we do not want to do that and we want to continue this
discussion to another work session at another time, I need to see four people that are interested in
moving this to a later work session to discuss again. So Mr. Steinberg, Mr. Cummings, Ms. Nacy--
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: --and Ms. Fox, this does not get voted tomorrow--
Kaj Dentler: Madam Mayor --
Mayor Burk: --and we do not have to have any discussion on what we want changed?
Kaj Dentler: Madam Mayor, may I ask since there was-- it did not appear to be any objections to the
wayfinding system, does Council --
Mayor Burk: Right, that's my next question. That's my next question. That was initiating the mural
program and the next vote is for approval of the banner program. Do we have four people that are
interested in improving that? Okay, I think. Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: No.
Mayor Burk: It's 6-1. All right.
Page 131 May 24, 2021
Kaj Dentler: Mayor and Council, tomorrow night the draft resolution will be revised by striking item
number six referencing the murals on private buildings in order for wayfinding to go forward and then
I'll reschedule a future work session on murals on private buildings.
Mayor Burk: Great.
Kaj Dentler: All right, thank you.
Mayor Burk: All right. Thank you very much. That is everybody's understanding, correct? All right. The
next item we have tonight is the Virginia Main Street Program. Mr. Seymour.
Russell Seymour: Good evening, Madam Mayor and Members of Council. The next item on the
agenda is the Virginia Main Street program discussion. You may recall that this was something that
was brought up at a Council work session and actually during the April 12th meeting to take a look at
whether or not we should look at reevaluating the Main Street Program as it has been put out. The Main
Street Program is, first and foremost, it is a nationally -organized program. This is a program that prides
itself on the revitalization of downtown areas in particular where we'll go ahead and say of defined
areas. They've had success for a number of years over this program in areas but again nationally
focusing predominately on revitalization.
The Virginia Main Street Program took a slightly, I want to say a different approach, but they added to
it and if you look at the last piece down there, it talks about, "The program was designed to address the
need for revitalization as the national program does. However, ongoing management of small to mid-
sized downtowns, aspects of the main street approach may be applied successfully in other commercial
settings." When I look at that is its not just the revitalization of areas that have fallen by the wayside but
the Virginia program has now put in opportunities to look at maybe perhaps enhancing development,
working with additional programs that are downtown. That was one of the things that we caught that it
really has made some progress in changing. It's not simply a revitalization area if you will.
There are currently 30 different programs or 30 different localities that are divided into five separate
regions right now throughout the State. The program was voted and first put in place in 1984 with the
first program actually starting in '85. They mention here the last count there are approximately 90
jurisdictions or 90 areas, I should say, that are currently looking at some type of Main Street Program
in the State.
Something that has changed possibly since the last time it was brought before the Town, the Main
Street Program is undergoing a number of different updates if you will. One of those updates has been
a tiered system. I think it's important to bring this up because in having a discussion with DHCD over
the last couple of weeks, these tiered systems have really opened up a number of opportunities. Tier
one being that every locality is in a tiered one program. The new requirements you could be on their
mailing list, they could follow you on social media. However, you put that up there for a designated area.
Tier two is again a non-competitive process. There's an application you put in but it is a very minor
application, would be done online. Basically, it puts it out there that a locality or a designated area has
interest in doing this. Tier three and tier four are starting to get more into competitive processes and in
discussing with them, there's been a lot of discussion about the institution of a 501(C)(3), a non-profit
organization. That typically is put together in phase three but certainly is in place by the time you go to
phase four. The difference between phase three and phase four is usually about a two to three-year
time period in progressing through those two areas. Something that I did find that was interesting prior
to this change, when the Town was looking at this previously, DHCD told me that the Town is actually
in a tier two program. Again, it's not anything that's mandated. It doesn't bind you to anything but it is a
tiered program.
One of the things that is very interesting also, about the exploring Main Street tier two program, it does
open up a locality for possible DHCD grants. Those grants can be used for a number of things. There's
a seven thousand dollar grant in particular, that can be used for anything from marketing to actually
doing research and looking at if this program is something that is important or would fit within your area.
Tier two does open up some of those types of opportunities.
Page 141 May 24, 2021
Again, looking at what they have historically done, they typically focused on historic areas or historic
assets. In this case, obviously, we're talking about our Downtown area. They talk about increasing tax
revenue, creating jobs. I would say that the program probably is less a response of that as the
businesses or the groups that are involved in that program that are doing it. Nationally, they talk about
a sense of place. Obviously, we have a very good sense of place here in our Downtown area. I think
there are opportunities in looking at this tiered system that may make that even enhance that a little bit
more.
Lastly, I wanted to mention a couple of the funding a program and what that would mean for us here.
Local contributions typically, they start out-- a budget is-- so we'll go from backwards to front. Average
range for our annual budget on programs across the State is anywhere between a hundred and fifty
and $225K annually. Now, once these programs are established and a 501(c)(3) is in place, there's a
significant amount of fundraising that is basically tied to that 501(c)(3). That's where they'll make about
70% of their money for their budget.
When you look across the State of Virginia, at the 30 programs that are currently involved, on average
a locality may start out putting in all of the money for the program with the idea that is tiered off or
[unintelligible] off as it goes through, but at no point did we ever see anything that was below the 25%
to 35% average. Something from a budgetary standpoint as we look to move forward, one of the
questions would be from the budget, what are we looking at?
I think you're looking at starting out if you chose to move forward with a complete program in creating
a 501(c)(3), you'd be looking at putting out that money to begin with, and then tiering it off. But always
having to keep in mind that most localities are still within that 25% to 35% range if you will, for your
budget. Finally, before I go to questions, I just want to conclude my staff presentation by looking at a
recommendation.
I think it's important that staff is very interested in this program and in support of a Main Street model.
It does not necessarily mean that it has to be the prescribed Main Street Program. One of the things
that they talk about is their approach in this is that a Main Street Program can be something that is put
out, and then tailored to the Town or tailored to any jurisdiction.
Part of staff's recommendation is while we're in support of this idea, or this type of program, we'll be
recommending that the Council allow us now because there're obviously have been some changes in
Leesburg, as well as changes to this program since it was last presented. Allow us some time to go
through, really take a very hard look at this and look at some options and opportunities.
The tiered system is a very interesting program for us. Knowing that we were considered in that tier two
program that would be the first area that I would want to take a serious look at. At this point Madam
Mayor, Council members, I will answer any questions that you have.
Mayor Burk: All right. Mr. Martinez, do you have any questions?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Russell, thank you. I know, at the time when they brought it up. I was very
interested in us moving forward but I'm more than willing-- This is not a time -critical thing, so I'm more
than willing to give you more than enough time to go and do a real good thorough study before you
bring back a recommendation. Thank you.
Russell Seymour: Thank you, sir.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Thank you. Just a few questions, I'm trying to wrap my mind around the
dollars and cents of the program. Do you have a sense of for a similar size, Main Street Program how
much the startup cost was for the municipality?
Russell Seymour: I think from a budgetary standpoint, if you're looking at going for-- there's no cost
involved really, in tiers one and tiers two. There's advertising, most of that would be done in-house,
there's not a lot of costs associated with that. By the time you start to get to tier three, and really that
Page 151 May 24, 2021
501(c)(3), that's when you start to see on the low end, in that range, that 150K to 225 really does involve
the outlay at that point when a locality wants to move forward.
Council Member Cummings: The other question I had is trying to- and if this is something you need
to work on, I understand because it's into the details, but what do you envision as-- The Main Street
Program, obviously, is the name for Main Street where at most-- runs through with most small towns,
but Leesburg, obviously, has a unique business district that spans beyond just the Main Street. As the
Economic Development Director, what are you thinking as far as the district that this would encompass?
Would you think it would just encompass Downtown or be open to other businesses throughout the
Town?
Russell Seymour: I think first and foremost, it's designed to be a designated area. I think that when
you look at both the national and the State programs, they sit themselves best in areas like a downtown.
I think it would be harder to try to move this out. Now, by no means do I think you can't do something
in other areas. In fact, I think you can take bits and pieces of this and create similar programs in different
areas, but I think if you want to follow a model that would take you to that tier three or tier four, you have
to have a very defined, designated area.
Council Member Cummings: In your research and preparing the report, is there an average of the
number of businesses in a Main Street Program that would be similar to Leesburg?
Russell Seymour: It was interesting. One of the comments or one of the questions I had asked the
DHCD is, "When was the last time they pulled any statistical information?" The last time that a summary
was done was back in 2015, so they realized they need to update that. They talked about the different
types of estimates or jobs that were created.
There was no number in there about the size of an area. Obviously, even if we were to establish a
Main Street area, there is no obligation or requirement on part of the businesses to join that program.
It would really be something that-- we talked about rising tide and all ships, really that would be a lot of
that program would be there. There is no rule of thumb, although I would suggest that before part of our
research is really getting out and talking to the businesses within an area to find out if there's interest, I
would be very leery of Council moving forward with something that the majority of the local businesses
really don't favor.
Council Member Cummings: Sure. Is that just a public survey that we put out, or is there more to that
to ask the local businesses?
Russell Seymour: No, I think it involves-- We do a lot of existing industry visits with staff and I think,
really, this is something that would be much more involved in a survey> I think really getting out and
talking to them, and part of it is explaining the program to them and what that is, there's the Main Street
Program, if you ask people, "Do you support a Main Street program?" You're going to get-- I should
say, "Do you know what a Main Street Program is?" You're going to get varied opinions. I think that is
something that is still very prevalent in the minds of a lot of our businesses.
Council Member Cummings: Perfect. I think that's it for me right now. I appreciate it.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. I'm assuming one of the advantages of a Main Street Program,
especially once you get it firmly established would presumably have a director of some sort as a staff
member who would be running the program in general?
Russell Seymour: If there was establishment of that 501(c)(3), that would not be a staff member per
se, that would be a hired position tied to that nonprofit organization.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. How do you, as you take these steps forward--? And I can
understand why it winds up being a designated area because you have commercial areas like say,
Virginia Village, Village at Leesburg, and any number of the shopping centers, they have management,
they all sit under an umbrella that does cooperative marketing and things like that. Whereas, for
Page 161 May 24, 2021
example, the B1 is a gathering of disparate businesses and it's hard to sometimes get consensus or
cooperation. Having an umbrella organization makes perfect sense in a designated area.
The fact of the matter is, you may have overwhelming consensus today but as businesses come and
go, maybe not necessarily so much, say, 10 years down the road. How do you maintain momentum in
a program like this once you get it started, assuming it has proved itself, then how do you keep
businesses involved? That's the job of the director of your 501?
Russell Seymour: I think it's both. The way you keep them involved is success. Not only having
success, but then showing and explaining what that success is so that as you're going through each
year by year, you're continuously communicating. When I've seen these types of concepts fail, usually
coming down to communication has been a factor in that. Getting that information out, letting the
businesses know, this is what we're doing. These are the responses that we're getting back, it's a
positive momentum moving forward, and making sure that everybody understands that.
Is it a part of the 501(c)(3)? Absolutely. I would also say it is very much also a part of our Economic
Development Department. We would still be working with those businesses. We would still be doing
that and marketing and putting that information out there. While part of that program success will be
based on the 501(c)(3), and I certainly see that from a grant or a budgeting process, working with the
business community would also remain part of the Town's function.
Council Member Steinberg: Can the program also hope to work with the residential portion of the
designated areas since it obviously-- I'm not saying necessarily in a financial way, but just in an
informational way, because it obviously serves to enhance the area in which these people live, even
though they are not necessarily business owners in that area. Do these programs tend to try to reach
out in cases like that?
Russell Seymour: I have not seen a program that has ever really talked or highlighted a lot of their
intentions with the residential aspect of it. I do know from an informational standpoint, they do pretty
much cover any, or they should, cover the area that they oversee. As most of these are revitalization
efforts when you're talking about that, you're talking about getting that information out to everybody
that's involved in that district.
Council Member Steinberg: I see. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Thank you, Mr. Seymour. I appreciate the presentation. Obviously,
this is something that we've been discussing in the Town for 15-- How many years? 20 years? A couple
of decades. The thing is 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it was more about revitalization. Thankfully, our
Downtown has really become a thriving destination. Now it's really more about enhancing and
optimizing the Downtown and all the different aspects because they -
I appreciate the whole Main Street versus a Main Street type organization makes total sense. Main
Street may make sense but I think looking at other possible models based on Main Street, because it's
about managing events and maintenance and marketing as a destination, all those things in advocacy
for the business owner. When Council would like to get input from the Downtown businesses because
it is a specific destination, a group of businesses, that's an important factor.
One of the other key factors that I think that will -to Mr. Steinberg's comment- impact the success of a
Downtown organization, whether it's Main Street or otherwise, is having somebody on staff for the
organization, not purely volunteer based, because people get burned out. You have a lot of turnover,
but having somebody that acts on behalf of them. I know that there are models, we talked about funding.
It'll be-- several optimizations be optimal to have some self -funding mechanism that funds that are
generated from the Downtown like parking, other things that might be able to be used that are contained
from the Downtown region that we can explore as part of this whole process.
Then finally, just I'll be great to get EDC input on this. I know that's part of the plan, because, I think it
made a lot of sense 10 years ago, it makes a lot of sense today and just reframing. I know that part of
Page 171 May 24, 2021
the concern is, "Well, why do we need a revitalization organization when that's not where we are?" But
there are opportunities right now to enhance what is already working, coordinate things, act on behalf
of the business community, and really take the Downtown to the next level. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: All right. Ms. Nacy?
Council Member Nacy: Thank you. I agree. Everybody's asked many of the questions I was going to
ask, but I really like the idea of staff going out, as you were saying, and looking at maybe coming up
with your own program that could potentially cover, just like Council Member Cummings was saying,
other areas of Leesburg. I think we're in great shape in our immediate Historic Downtown right now.
I think there are other areas that we could focus on, that could use a little bit of a revitalization effort
that would help draw more people. You bring them in, and then they'll just keep coming into other areas
of the Town, too. I'd be curious to see what staff finds out from that perspective. Then even from the
Historic District itself, what business owners would be interested in participating in a program like this.
That sort of thing. That's really it.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: Thanks. I really am very interested in the tier system that's come out. I know
that the last time we spoke about this, that wasn't available. It's very intriguing to me and I'd be interested
in taking a closer look at that or having Mr. Seymour do that. I think that would be a great idea. I did
take a look. I don't see the guidelines. I couldn't find the program guidelines in our attachment section
of the report. I don't know if it's just my computer not showing me that, or they're just not there.
I wanted to really go ahead and study those guidelines if I could get a copy of that. It also said in the
staff report that the Main Street Program offers a type of assistance and support for the local
revitalization efforts. I was wondering, what exactly that assistance and support would be? I'm sure it's
probably inside the guidelines somewhere. I just don't see it.
Russell Seymour: Madam Mayor, I will say there was-- I found out this evening that all the attachments
did not get included in everyone's packet, so they will be sent out this evening to everybody that's
involved. I'm sorry, Ms. Fox, that was part of it. I didn't quite make out the second question. You said
you saw something written?
Council Member Fox: Yes. That the Main Street Program offers a type of assistance and support for
local revitalization efforts. That's very broad, a thirty thousand -foot view. I was just wondering, what
types of assistance and support it actually offers? You probably don't know for each of the tiers, but
they were very broad about that. I just wanted to see what the benefits would actually be.
Russell Seymour: It is. You'll see when they talk about it in the tiered system. When they talk about
the different levels within that tiered system, one of the things that they're referring to are everything
from training programs, to marketing, to actually developing and working with localities to develop the
plans. Financial assistance that would be available for those types of plans. I believe, Ms. Fox, those
are the things that they're talking about a revitalization effort. As you continue to move up through the
tiers, there are additional funds available that start getting into specific revitalization or development -
type projects.
Council Member Fox: Okay. When you suggested Main Street model that said to me, and correct me
if I'm wrong, that we can actually do this without an actual buy -in. Is that correct?
Russell Seymour: That is correct. In fact, one of the first things that it says on top of the tiers before it
starts in that, and this is from the Virginia Main Street Program, it says, "A community does not need to
be designated as a Main Street to do Main Street work." I think that's probably first and foremost, you
don't have to have the official designation. Even going through tier two, you don't have to have that in
order to be able to tap into some of their resources, and do those similar types of programs.
Council Member Fox: Okay. I have to agree with Council Member Bagdasarian. If we are going to
optimize something like this, I-- First of all, I agree with Council Member Nacy that there are other places
that really could use some revitalization, but if we're going to focus on a specific area, which looks like
Page 181 May 24, 2021
maybe just the Old Historic District or the Arts & Cultural District as a whole, have the funds that we
might expand derive from those would benefit in those areas. I have to agree with that too. But in all,
the Main Street-- the tiered system, I would love to see us study that a little bit more and have some
information come back to us on that. That's it.
Mayor Burk: Thank you very much. I would disagree that the Downtown is in great shape. It's if you
walk there's, as I'm just thinking, I can think of at least five businesses, five buildings that are vacant at
this point, and that's just thinking about it quickly walking around. While I do understand the need for
looking at the Town as a whole, I am concerned that the Downtown, we are looking at it as being in
better shape than it is, and that concerns me greatly.
I do also, I'm concerned that you are looking at taking on a whole new program by yourself is-- and I
caution you to be careful. You don't want to add-- Because Main Street programs, they have at least
one person employee doing them, many times they have more than that, and they are full-time
programs that people want to participate in and to work. So, I just caution you to be careful looking at
something that you're going to add to your plate, and if you can, that's great, but I caution you to be
careful.
Russell Seymour: I will go ahead and answer that question now. There are certain things we can do
with tier one, possibly tier two. There's no way we can do a Main Street Program with current staff that
we have in looking at this on bigger. We would need to look at options for doing that, whether it's a
501(c)(3), whether it's additional staff, there would have to be other options, but I do believe that we
can look at tier one and tier two, and certainly provide the information and look at moving those things
forward.
Mayor Burk: All right. Thank you. Mr. Cummings, do you have-?
Council Member Cummings: I just had one quick question. I'm sorry. Neil brought up the cooperative
marketing of other smaller, there's strip malls or whatever-- other locations. I wondered if it wouldn't be
possible, as we're continuing to discuss this, trying to determine what venues actually offer that
cooperative marketing. Because today I had some conversations with business owners that have
businesses in a privately -owned mall, if you will, or strip mall that don't offer a cooperative marketing.
There are areas that may seem like they have cooperative marketing offered as part of their rent, but
they don't, in fact, have that. Just something to think about as we continue the dialogue.
Mayor Burk: You're asking from us tonight to see if we have four people that would be interested and
allowing you to continue to research the Main Street Program, and bring it back to us in a couple of
months as to what you would recommend after having researched it?
Russell Seymour: Yes. Ma'am. If there is interest from Council in us moving forward that. Yes.
Kaj Dentler: Madam Mayor, may I add? I think Mr. Seymour also wants to indicate that we would get
input from the Economic Development Commission in addition to his own research.
Mayor Burk: I would assume that would be part of your research. Absolutely.
Kaj Dentler: Okay, just to be clear.
Russell Seymour: It's in your agenda actually for next week.
Mayor Burk: All right. But we're not expecting this to come back in two weeks or anything of that nature.
That this will be a long-term research project, and that you'll come back with recommendations in the
not too distant future. Do we have for people that would be interested in that? Mr. Steinberg, Mr.
Cummings, Mr. Martinez, Mr. Bagdasarian, and Ms. Nacy, myself. Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: All right.
Page 191 May 24, 2021
Russell Seymour: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: I only needed four so I don't know why I went on. Our next discussion is the Council
Planning Retreat.
Kaj Dentler: Madam Mayor, Council Members, I'll be very brief. As you had your retreat in April and in
your packet, and on the screen indicates the variety of items, the business items that you identified
under the work plan. You adopted these in your minutes, but the purpose of tonight is to make sure
that the work plan that is in front of you is what you want. I've already calculated all these items into our
Tab A or your Council calendars, everything is there.
The short story here is if you wanted anything changed, reprioritized, deleted, whatever, now's the time
to tell me. If you want to think about it and come back in two weeks to reconfirm, that's fine. These are
our staff marching orders. I didn't want to assume that your approval of the minutes was your consent
on the items. I want to just make sure this is what you want.
Mayor Burk: Does anybody have any changes that they would like to have made to the schedule?
Council Member Fox: I have one change.
Mayor Burk: What's that, Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: I was hoping that we could also, as we spoke about at the retreat, focus a little
harder on emergency preparedness and management in more detail. That got talked about quite a lot,
but it got left off the final draft and I didn't realize it until this staff report.
Mayor Burk: Do you understand what she's asking?
Kaj Dentler: Yes, I talked with her this afternoon. Although Council in your discussion at the retreat,
you identified this as one of your big rocks, emergency and preparedness, but once you made your
final list of priorities to pursue in the work plan, emergency and preparedness was not one of the items.
It's still a very important item that we do day-to-day. Certainly, if you wish to add it, we can. If you wish
to have a future work session, in which Joe Dame comes and we talk about what are the specific things
that you're looking for, then that would be helpful.
I would think just adding it to the list without any direction other than coming back for a future work
session would not be helpful to me, because I know what I'm looking for Joe and our department
directors to do, but I do not know what you may be looking for specifically without discussion.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would like to have Mr. Dame come and do a-?
Kaj Dentler: A basic one-on-one emergency preparedness and what our plans are already, et cetera.
If you want to add on to that and discuss it, happy to do that, that's not a problem at all.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Fox, would that satisfy your concern?
Council Member Fox: It would.
Mayor Burk: Okay, are there four people that would be willing to do it? I think everybody's okay with
that.
Kaj Dentler: I'll add that to the list. Then I'l l find a date that works. Okay. No problem. All right. Thank
you.
Council Member Fox: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: All right. The next thing is the Strategic Approach to Potential Property Acquisition. You're
busy tonight.
Page 201 May 24, 2021
Kaj Dentler: It's also mine. I'm going to bring it home for you for the night. This is a discussion that
Council, you came up with a few months ago that you wanted to talk about. How are we acquiring
property? Do we have a plan? Are we are haphazard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What I've tried to
do versus having discussions on very specific parcels, tried to have more of a general discussion on
what type of strategy you may want to take, and what would. This is the whole intent of a very short
presentation here tonight to stimulate discussion.
When we look at things, it's important to go back to our history and our past to learn those lessons.
There have been some very successful acquisition efforts that have occurred simply in my time. Not
because of me, I don't mean to imply that, but there are three things that occurred. Eighty six acres
that we acquired in 2001 when I was the Park's Director, and we partnered with NOVA Parks at that
time, it was Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority.
We're just now moving forward with development of that, 20 years later. That was a great forward -
looking acquisition. Land banking is never a bad thing, if you can't afford things, you're not 100% sure
what you want to do with it, but if you don't acquire the land today, you may not have it tomorrow or at
a price that you can afford. The second item, although is somewhat controversial over the years, the
Town leased the 20 acres that's now known as Isaak Walton Park.
We leased that for many years. Council members at that time-- I was the Park's Director-- Council
members had decided this property we will acquire. I was never even asked whether we wanted to, but
Council did have the foresight to go forward with it. You certainly could debate the financing mechanism
that we use and et cetera, but I think we all would agree that was a good forward -looking project that
we did, that provides open space and now even a very successful dog park, the only dog park that we
have in Leesburg.
We ultimately acquired ownership of that several years later, as you see in 2016. The third item that to
me stands out over the last 20 plus years is the Town acquiring the 40 acres by the west side of the
airport, the west of the runway that is between us and the Microsoft development project. There is a lot
of interest today to build and develop that, but my guidance has always been the same. You own the
land. There is no rush to develop it. If there's the right move to develop it today, so be it but not
developing it and waiting is also never a wrong thing, the land is only going to become more and more
valuable.
We're now starting conversations on that. Council had the vision to look forward. Yet despite those
things, I really couldn't say that we as a Town had the vision. These were very singular types of
opportunities, and what we're trying to discuss is looking at what's a strategy that we may want to take
that has sustainability and commitment.
There are things that we missed or opportunities that we passed on, not a criticism by any means
because that would be for all of us. Many years ago, when Mr. Noe was the Town Manager, the Council
discussed expanding Town Hall and acquiring properties up Wirt Street. The Council made a very
committed, strong decision not to do that. That's okay. That was a decision that was made but looking
ahead, will Town Hall ultimately have to expand? Will it need to expand? What decisions and
opportunities may come before you?
Westpark has worked out well to our advantage if the County steps forward, but we could have easily
lost that at the same time because the Council was unable to reach a decision on moving forward with
that. Fortunately, it worked out, it's going to be a good thing for the community in the long run. One that
we lost in fairness, when I was the Park's Director, we did have a 20 -year master plan for open space.
The Rogers Farm now known as White Oaks. No one wanted to make the commitment to acquire the
property until it was too late, and now it will be homes. We'll welcome many of our new residents just
like we welcome everyone else. At the same time, you could also say we missed a great opportunity
for a significant open space opportunity for our residents' long-term legacy type of opportunities.
Other discussions that have been held that we've not taken action on yet are the O'Conner property,
40 acres immediately adjacent to the north side of Ida Lee Park. It is a complicated arrangement to
acquire that with the ownership. It hasn't been easy, it has gone through a variety of different potential
developments, but it still remains on our horizon if we wish to have that discussion. Finally, there have
Page 211 May 24, 2021
been discussions over the years, should we be looking to acquire adjacent properties to the Balch
Library to expand their operation? That's a strategic discussion that is worthy of Council having
deliberations on with the Balch Library Commission.
What am I basically suggesting is in our discussion? We should be having discussions, and if you wish
ultimately myself and the staff to develop a plan based on your guidance, we'll certainly do that, but we
should be defining what are our organizational needs? Why do we need to acquire new property? What
are the criteria we're going to use? What departments need expansion of their facilities? What are the
residents' needs of open space, et cetera? What do we need to do? What are the key criteria? Is there
a limit on cost? Is there a limit on environmental? Are there environmental factors that make a property
more attractive to us than others?
Development of an inventory. Now, the tricky part of this is once you make and develop a public
inventory, then you've just made that property even more valuable. Although we may still want it, we
have to be careful that we don't jack the price up and reaches out of our--. That's always a tricky part.
As government, we work at a disadvantage in reality. We always keep that in mind.
Then the last two pieces, I'll play the most important. Again, you heard me talk, we develop a 20 -year
plan for open space and a variety of technologies, but the ultimate commitment to acquiring property is
where the rubber hits the road. If we don't develop some type of plan and we don't fund that, then we
can have dreams and it might be pie in the sky, but when the opportunity comes, can you strike? That's
the bottom line.
If you develop those properties or develop the targets, you know where our needs are and looking 10,
20, 40 years down the road and you possibly rank those, then we have something to work from. Even
if we just characterize the types of characteristics of properties that we're looking for versus specific
parcels, then ultimately whatever your direction is. That is the presentation for tonight. I think we're just
trying to create a framework of where you want to go with this, if you want to go with that. That's my
thoughts, to stimulate your conversation, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
Mayor Burk: Are you asking at this point that you would like to get direction from the Council in regard
to setting up the first steps of coming up with the plan?
Kaj Dentler: Correct. I think that's ultimately what Council should do. If you're serious about developing
or having a discussion and developing a true acquisition plan for the Town's long-term needs when
opportunities come about or to be more proactive even to acquire properties, then I think we should be
having a discussion that we develop a report or a plan of action that we can work from. Because that
even goes into not even having a planning document, but it goes into a funding document, for my
recommendation, so we have a guidance.
Years ago, for example, Alexandria-- Oh, I forgot who I'm working with. Hopefully, I'm telling you the
correct story. My understanding is that they reduced their real estate tax rate by a certain percentage
because they made a commitment to open space. Obviously, open space acquisition in Alexandria is
very challenging and very expensive. What they did is they reduced their tax rate, I want to say by two
cents, and then they added a cent back that was designated specifically for acquisition purposes. I do
not know if that has held over the test of time, but it's in essence a model of a program that could be
developed. Ultimately, it takes money to get these properties and we're just not going to get them. Yes,
long answer, but that's correct, Mayor.
Mayor Burk: All right. Miss Nacy, do you have any questions?
Council Member Nacy: I don't, but yes to all of them.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Thank you, Mr. Dentler. Just one quick question. Historically, how
have we funded strategic land acquisition? Is it from the General Budget, was it from bonds?
Kaj Dentler: Sure. Bonds are being used. The 86 acres was a bond acquisition. I'm pretty sure that
that cost was about $2M for the Town. Isaak Walton was something that we added to the budget
Page 221 May 24, 2021
because we're paying an annual lease. That was added directly to the General Fund expense. Then
ultimately, the land was transferred to us, the ownership. The 40 acres, 1 believe mostly was a grant
with the Town share that we were able to get.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Okay. Then we know that preserving green spaces is something that
the Town does value. It's something that is in the Town Plan. Looking at options to have some strategic
fund for land acquisition, but it makes sense to explore. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Miss Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes, I am up for exploring this. I just wondered if this is something that will
happen in an open or a closed session? As were talking about specific parcels and things like that, how
would that work?
Mayor Burk: As you came back to us, would that be a closed session?
Kaj Dentler: Yes. When we come back, we can have a general conversation, but I think if it gets
narrowed down to specific parcels, to the extent that we're allowed to do, I think it's much wiser to go in
closed session to have the discussion. Especially if you are targeting a very specific property or two in
the near future. I think it's a careful, legal balancing act to make sure we're in compliance, but also
protecting the cost of that particular property.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Sorry, Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I know we're going to have to have several categories in which to talk about land
acquisitions, and I wrote down a few that I thought. One is what land can we help with the different
communities in protecting their supposed green space. Another category is, what properties around
that we can use for Town expansion? We already know of a couple pretty close to here. Existing
properties, Liberty parking lot, how we can use any type of agreement to bring that forward.
I also look at new infrastructure. We talked about that. Utilities Department is one that we have to look
at land acquisitions, right of ways, and what's coming in the future and what we need to purchase. I
think that is also. The other one was the County. What properties border the Town and the County that
it might be a good idea to get in talks with the property owners and County, and how we can purchase
that and bring it forward into the Town? We're looking at north and east, and maybe even west. We
need to look at those.
Then we look at Westpark. That's a big green space commitment from the County. I understand they're
still going to be putting it into a covenant of protecting the area. For me, that's great because that gives
us another big area of green space within the Town that we can use as a park pass, however we want
to do it. Again, I'm looking forward to working with the County on how we get that done.
I think those are the different types of reasons why we should be looking at buying property, especially
when there's property in the JMLA that might be better suited for us than the County. Those are the
things, and I'm really excited about us taking this step. I know that we've had these conversations before
about properties that we should be buying, but we never had the political or Council, or an opportunity
in our markets to be able to do something like this. I'm looking forward to some kind of strategic long-
term plan that we can target certain areas in Town as something that we can bring into the Town. Who
better to protect parks and green space than the Town? So I'm looking forward to our conversations
with that. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Thank you. One quick question. What are the rules for the Town to earn
income or revenue off of whether it be property we acquire or if we acquired a building that had tenants,
let's say, just as an example. Are there certain rules we have to follow from the State?
Kaj Dentler: I would defer it to the Town Attorney.
Page 231 May 24, 2021
Christopher Spera: Generally, you're not prohibited from generating revenue, but generally, there's a
line you can cross when you become a commercial real estate operator. For example, income that you
generate from park rentals, and that's completely legitimate income, but if your park rental became a
365 -day operation, is it truly a park anymore? That's the line that you can't cross.
Council Member Cummings: If we build a building that has a theater on one level and had apartments
above, we couldn't manage and make money off the rents?
Christopher Spera: Typically, housing is handled generally through an authority or by working with a
not -for-profit. Generally, municipalities tended not to operate housing directly. Usually, they'll create a
housing authority or they will partner with a not -for-profit and make a contribution either in terms of land
that they got through a proffer or maybe funds for housing that came in through a proffer and contribute
that to a specific project. Generally, the municipality is not, in and of itself, the operator of housing.
Council Member Cummings: Perfect. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Well, thanks for the presentation. This is a no-brainer, and obviously long
overdue. As part the Council, I look forward to being part of this process that will only help us serve the
future prospects of the Town. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: You need from us four votes, four handshakes, four headshots, whatever, that you want
us to move forward on your suggestion that staff come up with the recommendations and bring it back
to us and discuss this plan.
Kaj Dentler: Correct.
Mayor Burk: Are four people interested in doing that? Miss Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Okay, everybody. There we go. All right. Additions o Future Meetings. Miss Nacy?
Council Member Nacy: No.
Mayor Burk: Miss Fox?
Council Member Fox: I'm sorry, no, I'm having some issues here. Sorry.
Mayor Burk: Do you have any additions to future meetings?
Council Member Fox: No.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: No, not tonight. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Yes. Thank you, Mayor Burk. I think we've all seen the letter from the City
of Ranson looking for some level of support in their situation dealing with Rockwool. They got a
favorable judgment from Denmark, so I'm looking to have us write a letter of support to them. I think it's
relatively time -sensitive. I don't know how much time we want to spend either in discussion or actually
having a letter written in order to be able to send it.
Mayor Burk: Are you asking for a letter of support for the -
Council Member Steinberg: City of Ranson.
Page 241 May 24, 2021
Mayor Burk: The City of Ranson.
Council Member Steinberg: West Virginia.
Mayor Burk: West Virginia. Right.
Council Member Steinberg: Yes, in their effort against Rockwool.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would be interested in seeing a letter tomorrow in regard to
this? We've read the emails that we all got. Are there four people that would be okay with just having a
letter written and ready tomorrow to send off to them? So Mr. Steinberg, Martinez —
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Miss Fox, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Yes. Okay, so we've got Steinberg, Cummings, Martinez, and Fox, and everybody else.
We're a very agreeable group. Who have I skipped? Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: I have one. I just wanted to ask staff to develop a questionnaire for
applicants and their representatives that come in front of the Board of Architectural Review with the
goal of learning about the process and just trying to ensure that we're always serving our citizens in a
better way, and fixing any issues that may be arising that we're not hearing about directly.
Mayor Burk: Are you asking for a review of the BAR process after it has happened? You're asking staff
to follow up with the applicant to evaluate the process?
Council Member Cummings: Absolutely, yes, and that could be either written or in -person or phone
calls, whatever, just to put together a system that has questionnaires and is the same for every
applicant, so that way we can glean information to help better the process of what's happening at the
Board of Architectural Review.
Mayor Burk: And you're asking for them to put it together and bring it back to us to finalize?
Council Member Cummings: No, I just would like them to get a questionnaire going so we can begin
to gather information.
Mayor Burk: But if the questions don't meet your goal-?
Council Member Cummings: They can bring it back. I would just like to get it going sooner rather than
later.
Vice Mayor Martinez: A clarification. The survey is not for the Town Council as much as it is for the
BAR and the Planning Department to get a better reading on how effective they are in working with the
residents.
Council Member Cummings: Correct.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Okay, and we as a byproduct can get a result of that survey after so long and
see how we're making progress?
Council Member Cummings: That sounds exactly like what I was trying to intend, so thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: The survey is to be sent to residents then to find out-?
Page 251 May 24, 2021
Vice Mayor Martinez: Applicants.
Mayor Burk: Whoever the applicant is before the BAR.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Just for clarification, so it is like a customer satisfaction type survey.
Mayor Burk: Right.
Council Member Bagdasarian: How can we improve? We should be looking at all aspects of the
Town? That's good.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I have two to ask.
Mayor Burk: Wait, no. Sorry, your thing's still on. I didn't know if you had another comment because
your light is still on. Are there four people that would be interested in doing this customer service survey?
You've got four people, Miss Nacy, Mr. Bagdasarian. Well, actually, you've got everybody. Suzanne,
are you a yes?
Council Member Fox: I'm a yes.
Mayor Burk: Okay, so we have everybody. Now, Mr. Martinez.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Well, I've got two asks. One is, one of my concerns about the BAR now. I'm not
being critical of the BAR as much as-- I think they have so much on their plate that I would love to see
the Planning Commission or the Planning Department come forward with the list of changes that could
be more administrative because I see there's a lot of stuff coming to the BAR when I was on as liaison
that could have been done administratively. I'd like to see if the Planning Department has any
suggestions on what we can do to change the process to make it easier for the BAR to work and things
that can be done administratively.
Mayor Burk: Okay. You're asking them to come back to bring to Council a list of administrative tasks?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Because anything we do that we want the staff to do administratively it's going
to have to be approved by Council. I'd just like to see if the Planning Department has any suggestions.
Mayor Burk: All right, and there's no timeline on when this comes back?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Well, I wanted it done yesterday.
Mayor Burk: Good luck with that one. Are there four people that would be interested in pursuing that
one? Miss Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Everybody's agreeing.
Vice Mayor Martinez: The last one is we are considered part-time when it comes to health benefits,
and I would like to change that classification to full-time, and I need to know Kaj, is this something that
can be done administratively? Or do we have to vote on it?
Kaj Dentler: Council needs to make that direction.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Once we say we want to do it, do we have to have a formal resolution? Or can
we just have four head nods, and then you can move forward?
Kaj Dentler: Well, I'm going to defer to Chris, but I think you need to take a vote.
Page 261 May 24, 2021
Mayor Burk: You have to take a vote, it's budget.
Kaj Dentler: If you want to, because you're adding that as part of your benefits package, which I think
only requires a vote, but I'l l defer to you, Chris.
Christopher Spera: Off the top of my head, I'm almost certain you're going to have to vote on that, so
I think it's in the Town budget.
Vice Mayor Martinez: I got no problems with voting for it, but I just wanted us to change that
classification so that we are permanent or we're treated under the health benefits package as full-time
versus part-time.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would like to see that? That does not pass.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Suzanne?
Mayor Burk: It doesn't matter, it's not four. You don't have Mr. Steinberg coming -
Council Member Fox: I need a little bit more information before I could say, "Yes, let's absolutely do
it." I'm not ready to say yes yet.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Okay.
Mayor Burk: I have nothing.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Not to pass, right?
Mayor Burk: No, it didn't pass. You got the votes, right? No, Mr. Martinez, Mr. Bagdasarian were the
only two that voted for it. You ended up voting for it? Okay.
Eileen Boeing: I'm sorry. Were there four head nods, or-?
Mayor Burk: No, there was only three. Mr. Cummings, Mr. Martinez, and Mr. Bagdasarian.
Council Member Nacy: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: All right. Okay. I have nothing. Is there a motion to adjourn? Moved. Second by-? I haven't
heard anybody, second.
Council Member Cummings: [inaudible]
Mayor Burk: Cummings, all in favor? Indicate by saying aye.
Council Members: Aye.
Mayor Burk: Opposed?
Council Member Fox: Aye.
Mayor Burk: All right. We're closed.
Page 271 May 24, 2021