HomeMy Public PortalAbout2021_tcwsmin0712Council Work Session July 12, 2021
Council Chamber, 25 West Market Street, 7:00 p.m. Mayor Kelly Burk presiding.
Council Members Present: Ara Bagdasarian, Zach Cummings, Suzanne Fox, Vice
Mayor Martinez, Kari Nacy, Neil Steinberg and Mayor Kelly Burk.
Council Members Absent: None.
Staff Present: Town Manager Kaj Dentler, Town Attorney Christopher Spera, Director
of Planning and Zoning Susan Berry Hill, Director of Plan Review Bill Ackman, Director
of Human Resources Josh Didawick, Police Chief Gregory Brown and Clerk of Council
Eileen Boeing.
Minutes prepared by Executive Associate Corina Alvarez.
AGENDA ITEMS
1. Items for Discussion
a. Murals on Private Buildings
Ms. Susan Berry Hill and Mr. Christopher Spera provided an overview of
the points Council discussed during the May 24 Work Session and reviewed some
of the issues that Council should consider regarding mural regulation.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of Council to form an ad -hoc committee with a duration of six
months and develop a pilot program to allow murals on private, commercial buildings,
outside of the Historic District. Council can be petitioned for additional time, as needed.
The ad -hoc committee will be composed of one appointed representative per Council
member, pertinent staff, and one member from each of the following::
• Public Art Commission,
• Economic Development Commission, and
• Board of Architectural Review
• Council representative (Council Member Bagdasarian was selected to
represent Council on the committee)
b. Town Council Retreat Follow Up — Environmental Topics
Ms. Susan Berry Hill and Mr. Bill Ackman presented some of the items
that Council discussed during its April retreat, regarding environmental topics.
Council and staff discussed the item.
c. Civilian Oversight Body for Leesburg Police Department
Mr. Kaj Dentler gave an overview of what Council previously discussed in
regards to a task force committee for civilian oversight of the Leesburg Police
Department.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to the July 27 Council Meeting.
Council also agreed to form a task force to review the Leesburg Police Department's policies
and procedures and to advise Council if there is a need for a Police Advisory Board. The
task force will include:
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Council Work Session July 12, 2021
• Leesburg Police Department staff
• Town staff and
• One appointed Town resident per Council member with law enforcement
and/or legal systems knowledge
d. Classification of Health Insurance Benefits for Town Council
Mr. Josh Didawick gave an overview of Town health insurance rates and
the current classifications.
Council and staff discussed the item.
There was no consensus to change the Council's Health Care Classification but there
was Council consensus to discuss this item during the next budget cycle.
2. Additions to Future Council Meetings
Council Member Fox requested a one-time $3,300 payment to the Loudoun
Freedom Center for use towards the Sycolin Cemetery site maintenance/improvement
before the memorandum of understanding is signed.
There was no consensus to add this item.
Council Member Cummings requested a grant of $100K for the Loudoun
Freedom Center to use towards improvements at the Sycolin Cemetery site.
There was no consensus to add this item.
Council Member Nacy requested that the Planning Commission provide Council
with completed sections of the Legacy Leesburg, by the end of August, to allow Council
to better prepare for when the final draft plan reaches Council in the fall. No work
session discussion was requested.
It was the consensus of Council to ask the Planning Commission to send a draft of any
completed Legacy Leesburg sections by the end of August for Council's review.
3. Adjournment
On a motion by Council Member Steinberg, seconded by Council Member Bagdasarian, the
meeting was adjourned at 9:23 p. m.
Clerk of Council
2021 tcwsmin0712
2 Page
July 12, 2021 — Town Council Work Session
(Note: This is a transcript prepared by a Town contractor based on the video of the meeting. It
may not be entirely accurate. For greater accuracy, we encourage you to review the video of the
meeting that is on the Town's Web site — www.leesburgva.gov or refer to the approved Council
meeting minutes. Council meeting videos are retained for three calendar years after a meeting
per Library of Virginia Records Retention guidelines.)
Mayor Kelly Burk: I will call to order that the Town Council work session of July 12th, 2021, and our
first topic for discussion tonight is the Mural on Private Buildings. This is Mike Watkins. No, it's not.
Susan Berry Hill: Mr. Watkins is not here. He is not able to be here. I'll stand in for him on this one. I
don't have a long presentation, but I'm just going to start by refreshing everybody's memory about what
was discussed last time on this, which was the May 24th work session. On May 24th, Mr. Watkins
presented some information to you. He noted that the zoning ordinance currently allows murals on
public buildings, but it does not allow them on private buildings, and so that was the question before
you. He also noted the public murals are subject to the Public Art's guidelines as adopted by Council
initially in 2008, and then revised in 2018.
There is a prohibition from having commercial messaging on the murals. The topics that you all
discussed on May 24th, you touched on a number of different things. One of them has to do with First
Amendment. I'm noting on this slide that the Town Attorney would need to research this if we were to
pursue private murals on private buildings, and I believe he has already done some of that. He told me
tonight, just now, that he had sent you a memo on that. Chris, do you have anything you want to say to
that point?
Christopher Spera: Thank you, Susan. I would only add, that was not intended to be a comprehensive
memorandum to you. It's basically just a very brief sort of introduction to the topic, highlighting some of
the issues with respect to regulation, should you choose to do regulation, or should you choose to allow
these types of murals. Sort of flagging the issues, as I tried to indicate it's not a very clear area of the
law and there are definitely some slippery slopes in there if you attempt to do some regulation, but
should you choose to go forward, we have to look at it much more closely and much more carefully
than the 30K -foot view that I tried to share with you through that memo earlier today.
Mayor Burk: Thank you.
Susan Berry Hill: Okay, other things that you've touched on, in your discussion on May 24th, the
maintenance of murals and so there were questions about who would maintain murals on private
buildings and how do we, as a community, assure that there is maintenance and upkeep of those
murals. You also discussed impacts on economic development questions were asked of Russell
Seymour, the Director of Economic Development, whether there was support. Generally, if that's a
compatible objective, private art and economic development, and I think Russell had said yes.
I mean, communities that are noted for art are sought out by people who are interested in not only
looking at the art but maybe will come to patronize restaurants and other retail businesses in the area,
so they're related and compatible. You discussed COPA and oversight responsibilities. Who would be
responsible for looking at private murals and going through the approval process, and so forth. We
talked a little bit about the Public Arts Guidelines that COPA administers, and whether or not that could
be used or expanded to look at private murals.
We also discussed commercial properties or residential properties or both. Some of you expressed
concern about murals on private residential properties, so the question was, could we limit this to only
commercial properties in town? That question was discussed and there was no resolution on it, but
that's one of the things for you all to consider. Where in our town? Is it appropriate for private murals?
Would it be in the H-1 District considering we have a Historic District and what do we want to see in
terms of private murals in the Historic District?
What about the Gateway District which is also another architectural control district. However, its entries
to our Town. Other commercial areas in Town which are just commercially zoned. Is it all of the above
Page 11 July 12, 2021
or just a portion of those? That's a quick recap of the things that you discussed on May 24th. Tonight,
you might want to discuss these points where for H-1 impact on historic resources including
recommendations from the BAR. As you know the guidelines currently asked for input from the BAR
which is non -binding and they provide that recommendation to you.
Would that continue with looking at private murals in the H-1? One of the things that Mr. Watkins
included in his memo to you was, would you want to consider a pilot program? One of the communities
that he researched was Roanoke and they are developing a pilot program for how to, I think among
other things, including how to maintain murals in good condition. I believe that they're looking at bonding
the murals so that there's assurance that they are kept looking nice. That was something that you might
want to consider.
Of course first amendment review is, as Mr. Spera noted, would be something if you initiated work on
this, we definitely would want to delve into that issue in more detail but he's given you as he said a 30K
foot level response tonight. Approval process. Who would be responsible for looking at private murals?
Would that responsibility go to the COPA? Would we want to revise the Public Art Guidelines to include
public and private art guidelines? Would you task COPA with developing those guidelines for you? They
might want to include such things as size, scale and locational factors on buildings.
Again we need to work very closely with Mr. Spera on exactly what those guidelines could do but that
might be something that you would like to consider. Regarding initiation, the zoning ordinance text
amendment, I think maybe Mr. Watkins would disagree with me if he were here tonight but I would say
that's probably the last of your considerations. We can change the zoning ordinance to include private
murals as well as public murals and be done with it. Most of the research that he did, communities did
not get into regulating private murals. They left that to guidelines that would be administered through
their arts commissions.
I think that would be our recommendation as well that the zoning text amendment is very simply allowing
for the private murals but the guidelines are what would address size, scale, locational factors. Then
you would want to also consider which districts. The text amendment would address that as well. That's
a very thumbnail overview of where we're at with private murals, so I defer to you.
Mayor Burk: All right. Thank you. Does anyone have any questions at this point? Mr. Bagdasarian, you
go ahead.
Council Member Ara Bagdasarian: Thank you, Susan. When it comes to impacts on historic
resources is that like staff and BAR resources is that what you're referring to?
Susan Berry Hill: I think if the private murals were allowed in the H-1, we would need to decide what
is the staff and BAR's role. In looking at that clearly, from staff's standpoint and I think from a BAR
standpoint not interested in commenting on the art itself. That is the role of COPA and we want to stay
in our individual lanes here. In terms of impacts on those resources of course it's our Historic District
and we may have limited abilities to restrict what types of private murals people propose. That's a
consideration for our Historic District as hopefully, we won't detract from the integrity of the Historic
District. I think that's what that first point is getting at, is making sure that the integrity of the District is
not compromised.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Now is that the aesthetic integrity more so, because I know that the
Loudoun Museum building, there was a structural integrity consideration that we had to bring into
consideration. Would that be applicable to any of the properties when it comes to historic preservation?
Susan Berry Hill: That's probably a good question for the BAR to weigh in on. I know the recently
proposed mural on the Loudoun Museum was-- there was a lot of discussion around the proposal there.
I think first and foremost, it's the integrity of the building itself and whether painting on the building will
compromise the integrity of the brick, the mortar, the structural integrity, and so forth. That's the first
and foremost concern.
Page 21 July 12, 2021
Council Member Bagdasarian: That would be fantastic to include in the guidelines because there are
paints and materials that are approved for historic buildings and alternatives like panels so
[unintelligible] art. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Fernando "Marty" Martinez: Just an FYI, I'm very supportive of having commercial
buildings be able to put murals up. As far as economic impact, I'm not sure where that falls in or not. I
don't think that's really an applicable impact, because I just don't think it is. I do believe that COPA
should be their oversight but I also believe the Town Council should be the final yes or no on the mural.
I also believe that there should be no commercial murals. That'd be like a big billboard so none of that.
I also, as far as the maintenance goes, whoever's putting up the mural, if a building owner is allowing a
mural to be put up, my feeling is it's his responsibility to take care of it.
As far as lifetime, or six months, or how long the mural is going to be up there, that's going to have to
be part of the oversight. How long can we expect that integrity of the mural itself to uphold, and if, say,
it's only good for a year, but they want to keep it, then they got to improve on it. Those kind of things.
Essentially, that's where I feel. As far as private, right now I would like to see us just do the commercial
buildings, private building owners to be able to put up murals. As far as residents, or private homes, it'd
have to be a pretty unique situation for me to even consider something like that. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Fox?
Council Member Suzanne Fox: Thanks. You said, we're considering Gateway District, H-1, and what
other district?
Susan Berry Hill: Just all commercial districts.
Council Member Fox: All commercial districts. I'm on the fence. I'm not opposed to Gateway and other
commercial districts. I'm really not. I've always said this and I 'll probably have to say it again and I'll
probably say it again, at some other point in time, but our H-1, we're worried about the integrity of our
buildings, and I understand that. I'm worried about our integrity, because we require homes in the H-1,
again, you need permission for a certain color paint or a certain kind of window. We put them through
the wringer when they come here, bureaucratic -wise. I don't understand how those two are compatible.
I just don't understand that.
If I wanted to paint a mural on my commercial building here in Town, I don't think they'd have any historic
basis whatsoever and that's what we're trying to preserve. At least in the H-1, that's what we're trying
to preserve. I think we do it because we love art, and that's fine. I get it, but I think it needs to make
sense as well. 1 don't mind the other districts but I couldn't support H-1, especially what we put our
businesses and citizens through to be in H-1.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Neil Steinberg: Thanks. This is fine. I actually now have more questions than when
I came in. In the end, it boils down to the reality and the practicality of what we're looking at. If we look
at the H-1 first, I'm trying to envision what inventory there actually is on the commercial side that would
take a mural now. One of the questions would be within the H-1 you have what were residences that
had been converted to commercials. They look like houses but they have businesses inside of them.
Is there any distinction to be made in the BAR say between a commercial building, it looks like a house
as a canvas, versus say King Street Station which is a new building. I think I'm not even sure if it has
any broad surfaces that could take a mural anyway. That would fall entirely on the owner of the property
not the individual tenants. Do we even have an idea or have we taken the time to consider what buildings
in the H-1 might actually appropriately become canvases for a mural? What would the regulations say
about that? Do we know?
Page 31 July 12, 2021
Susan Berry Hill: Most of the Downtown is zone B-1 which is a commercial district. It does allow for
residential uses within that district. I believe that if you're just generally looking at commercial buildings
most of the Downtown would be eligible for private mural, if that was the criteria.
Council Member Steinberg I understand that. I'm just-- so it would make no difference whether or not
it had originally been a residence and had been say for example the Pat-- what was the Patterson
House which now houses Blue Ridge Title, I think, but it's obviously it was a residence and looks like
one. The Historic District or the regulations for the B-1 don't necessarily address or would necessarily
address whether or not that particular building would be appropriate for a mural commercial or not or
could we shape it in any fashion like that? I know it's.
Susan Berry Hill: I think that would be hard to say because the building's been used in the past for
residential purposes that it would or would not be eligible for a private mural. I think you'd want to stick
with the zoning and which enables and which sets what the land use is for the property.
Council Member Steinberg Currently everything that has a mural on it or is being proposed from you
all as a publicly -owned building including the museum at this stage even though it's occupied by the
Loudoun Museum Group. It's still a public building in that respect.
Susan Berry Hill: Yes.
Council Member Steinberg It seems to me within the H-1, B-1 there just don't seem to be that many
appropriate canvases to use that word. I guess that's to be determined. Now outside now we're into
privately -owned shopping centers and there are a few free-standing buildings but most of them are also
corporately owned. If we took Plaza Street Shopping Center as an example, do we have any say
whatsoever on what management could decide they want to do with murals on any one of the buildings
within that shopping center or any of the other shopping centers in the end?
Susan Berry Hill: I think the zoning will just establish where/what districts private murals would be
permissible in. Now whether a private, management company for individual shopping centers, I think
they would have to come up with their own rules I guess for whether or not a mural could be painted.
Council Member Steinberg That's what I'm asking. With or without a zoning amendment, can they do
that now?
Susan Berry Hill: No.
Council Member Steinberg So they cannot?
Susan Berry Hill: No. We've had-- I'll think of one example which was Village at Leesburg approached
staff. This is a number of years ago and they were interested in promoting art and to be competitive in
the retail world. One of the things that they wanted to do was paint large murals on portions of their
blank walls in their development. Of course, we told them that they could not do that because private
murals were not permitted under the zoning ordinance. If you were to consider something like this that
would be permissible, providing that the management company of one of these shopping centers
agrees that their tenant spaces could be painted upon.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay, alright. Regarding the gateways, there are only three that really, I
think would serve the purpose that would be the Southeast and Edwards Ferry Road, those three
gateways. The seven gateway, you have what will probably become some commercial venture involving
the Greenway/Allman properties, but that's guided by the H-1 already. Those guidelines would apply
there. We still don't know what commercially is going to happen at Meadowbrook, for example, but it's
set way back off the road. The current zoning regulations would still apply to whatever commercial entity
may or may not come about, for example, at Evergreen Mill Road and 15.
Susan Berry Hill: The Meadowbrook property I think you're referring to and so, that is being proposed
for commercial rezoning off of Route 15. I think the front part is being proposed for P -district.
Presumably, if Council would want to see just general private murals in commercial districts, it would
apply to their development, if it's approved, in the Meadowbrook.
Page 41 July 12, 2021
Council Member Steinberg: Currently outside any other commercial district can any homeowner, if
they choose, any private homeowner and they're not dictated by an HOA, can any homeowner paint
their house with a mural if they so choose if it's a freestanding?
Susan Berry Hill: No.
Council Member Steinberg: They cannot?
Susan Berry Hill: No, there's no murals on private property.
Council Member Steinberg: I see.
Susan Berry Hill: Only public buildings or public property.
Council Member Steinberg: Well, I think we still have a lot more discussion to have about this. I
personally think that COPA and the BAR, in regard to the H-1, B-1 should work together in terms of
whatever review and approval process would take place. I concur that advertising would be out of the
question, but I think we still have discussion here. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Anyone else at this point? Wait a minute. Yes? Go ahead Mr. Cummings.
Council Member Zach Cummings: Thanks. One question for the Town Attorney. Is there anything
legally that we should consider if we were to allow only a commercial properties to do private murals
rather than allow both commercial and residential?
Christopher Spera: I would have to look at that because what we would have to articulate is what is
the government interest, the substantial government interest that is being advanced? What is the
interest that's being protected by drawing that distinction? I'm not prepared to answer that question off
the cuff tonight but that's the issue. Perhaps other jurisdictions have done so and we can articulate it in
that way. Look at what other —sort of benchmark with what other jurisdictions have done. I'm not familiar
with a jurisdiction that has made that distinction yet, but I don't pretend to have covered the entire
waterfront on that.
Council Member Cummings: Sure. Then one question for Susan. In the other communities that you
and Mr. Watkins studied, on their private mural initiatives, was there a body that was the final arbiter or
gave the certificate of appropriateness or whatever that equivalent is for those jurisdictions?
Susan Berry Hill: I'm not certain because I don't know all the communities that Mr. Watkins researched.
He had difficulty I know this, doing the research in that trying to get people to answer their phone, first
of all and respond to the question. The limited research that he did do I know it was mostly their arts
commissions that were responsible for administering it. I don't know if the governing bodies had the
final say.
Council Member Cummings: I think my thoughts are I'm supportive of definitely of putting into place
some private mural initiative. 1 100% think commercial spaces should be able to do that, with some
guidelines and some oversight will say through COPA, and if it's in the H-1 through the BAR. I agree
with Vice Mayor Martinez that I think Town Council probably has to be the final arbiter. Unfortunately,
just to make sure nothing is put forward that doesn't really maybe reflect what Leesburg has to offer.
That's it.
Council Member Steinberg: Madam Mayor, just a second.
Mayor Burk: Excuse me. You've already asked. No, but I need to --
Council Member Steinberg: No, no, this is a microphone issue. I'm not sure if Mr. Spera's-- We're
having trouble hearing Mr. Spera on this side because he's behind this wall. I don't know if it's because
he's too far from the mic or if you all are hearing him through the speakers, but he's not coming through
the speakers at all. That's all.
Page 51 July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: Okay.
Christopher Spera: I will try and do better. Can you hear me now?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes. It's not coming through the speakers.
Christopher Spera: Okay. Might even be better if I just do this.
Mayor Burk: Just talk loudly.
Christopher Spera: I'll do that.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Nacy, do you have anything?
Council Member Kari Nacy: I don't.
Mayor Burk: I have a couple of questions and then I'll go back to you, and then back to whoever. You
sound like you're unsure as to whether we can actually limit it to just commercial properties?
Christopher Spera: Yes, I am unsure.
Mayor Burk: In a private mural, when you're referring to a private mural, you're talking about an
individual that might want to do one on their house or a business that might want to do one, is that what
you mean by private because we do have individuals that come before the Commission on Public Art
and asked for it to be done, but it's on Town property.
Susan Berry Hill: Yes. That would be considered a public mural because it's a public building, public
facility.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Because I think those murals are pretty public, I was a little confused by that. I do
have to say the COPA is pretty overwhelmed with all that they're doing now. I can't imagine telling them
that we're going to then have them increase their review of murals. That'll be very interesting. I do agree
that I would not be able to support having it in private homes in residential areas. I think that's a can of
worms that we don't, I don't know how that's going to go. I do agree that if commercial buildings, building
owner wants to do it, and it's okay with that commercial owner, as long as it's not an advertisement, I
don't have a problem with it.
I do believe the Town Council does have to have the final vote on it, and wait till you have that
experience, that will be fun. Is there the possibility that we could be pinning ourselves into a corner by
saying that we'll allow it on commercial property, we'll allow it in this area and this area, not this area
and not that area. Is it getting to the point where, if we did this, the implications would really be more
negative than positive because we're not prepared for the implications of it? I guess you can't really
answer that question. I guess that was just my thinking out loud as to how we going to handle that.
I think that the murals have been a great addition to the Town so far, and I do think they're an economic
development driver. I do believe that people come to see them and then stay for lunch, or businesses
look at it and say, "Well, this is a really cool town, let's open a business here," kind of thing. I do see
the value of them economically. I just think we have to be really careful and we don't want to end up
having them everywhere in places that we don't want them. Maybe that means that we start a pilot
program and see how it goes, but we'll see what we have at that point. But we really should, this is our
work session, Mr. Steinberg. This is where we should be asking questions.
If we need to get answers, we can postpone the final decision and have staff come back, but as many
questions as you can ask, please feel that now is the time to do it. In that case, I will say Mr.
Bagdasarian.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Alright. Been waiting so long.
Page 61 July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: I know.
Council Member Bagdasarian: To your point, COPA is currently, I would say, at maximum threshold
as far as their workload. That is a testament to the demand for public art in our community. I do think a
pilot program, starting off with anything new, it's always good to start with a pilot program. You have
your controls, you have your outcomes that you're measuring. With regards to the Historic District,
because it's also the Arts and Cultural District, and by the way Parks And Rec and COPA did an
awesome job last weekend installing some of the banners and signs for the Arts and Cultural District,
but we can obviously manage the quality content locations through the guidelines.
It's not like, "This is a free for all, hey, put it", and I do believe even though that the Historic District is
also the Arts and Cultural District, the entire Town can benefit from public art. There are other districts
that were mentioned, Village at Leesburg for example, that can certainly benefit. That's part of the
Leesburg experience. That's part of what we're trying to cultivate here and for residents and visitors and
people spending money. We certainly want to cultivate that throughout the Town. That's it. These guys
already got everything. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Well, when I mentioned about economic impact, the typical feeling is that when
you say impact, it's a negative impact. I do believe that it is going to be a positive economic driver, not
impacting the economics, but driving it and making it better. I also believe that it should be applied to
all districts. I don't want to sit here and segregate Historic District, from somewhere else. I have been
to Flagstaff, Prescott, Phoenix. They have some beautiful murals everywhere. I looked at that and
thought, if we could apply some of their historic content of their communities, the way they'd have done
it, and if we can do that to ours, I can't see us not having a win -win situation.
I also saw some in Philadelphia, on the way to a Philly's ballgame against the Nats. There were
warehouses full of murals that were phenomenal. I looked at those as real positives for the community
and I think that we can benefit even on a warehouse, we can benefit. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thank you. You mentioned we were speaking to, was it Roanoke that's
starting a pilot program?
Susan Berry Hill: That was one of the communities that Mr. Watkins looked at.
Council Member Steinberg: I'm just wondering also, and I may have mentioned this when this
discussion first came up, because Frederick is a lot closer. They have a larger historic district, public
art all over the place. I don't think it's all on public buildings, honestly.
Susan Berry Hill: Frederick, Maryland?
Council Member Steinberg: Yes. I know a lot of it is within the Historic District but I think a good portion
of it is on privately owned. That might be another example we'll look at this as we develop a pilot
program. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: The only thing I can think of as I listened to Council Member Martinez, and I
agree, there's some really nice art out there but it's also subjective. What's nice to one person is not
necessarily nice for another person. That aside, if we are going to really consider having something in
the H-1, we might want to take a look at our guidelines then in the H-1 because we just can't say we're
going to do something and you hold somebody accountable for something different. It just isn't right.
That's my input.
Susan Berry Hill: You're noting that there is nothing in the H-1 guidelines.
Page 71 July 12, 2021
Council Member Fox: There's nothing at all. Murals are considered okay in the H-1.
Susan Berry Hill: Well, it's probably something we would need to address if this is something that the
Council would like to do. The arts guidelines are what --
Council Member Fox: Got you.
Susan Berry Hill: --formulate the process by which the BAR provides some input to COPA and to
Council on art, but they're not to really comment on content of the art. It's just mostly the structural
integrity of the buildings on which it [crosstalk]
Council Member Fox: That I totally understand. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we should relax
what we expect of others with their homes. That's what I'm saying.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg Does this conversation also include freestanding art or are we simply
talking about murals in this case?
Susan Berry Hill: I believe the definition in the zoning arts of murals is something that is a fixed or
painted onto a building. I don't think it's freestanding. That would be a different type of art, I believe,
according to our own zoning ordinance.
Council Member Steinberg: Anything like sculpture, what have you, we would have to have an entirely
separate conversation outside of this one, if we wanted to consider more of that in certain situations
where it may or may not be allowed now, or do any of the regulations speak to freestanding art in the
H-1 or the B-1?
Susan Berry Hill: I do not believe so because we have freestanding sculpture, for example --
Council Member Steinberg: We do.
Susan Berry Hill: --in Raflo Park.
Council Member Steinberg: Yes, but that's public. Of course, I'm thinking of in a private situation.
Susan Berry Hill: On private. For example [crosstalk]
Council Member Steinberg: So Virginia Village has the globe.
Susan Berry Hill: -Crescent Place has got the Love.
Council Member Steinberg: The Village at Leesburg has the globe and so they don't have to come to
us or anybody else -
Susan Berry Hill: It's private property.
Council Member Steinberg: -to do that. Strictly murals, right?
Susan Berry Hill: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Nacy?
Council Member Nacy: Yes, thank you. Two questions popped in my head just for my knowledge,
because I don't know who wrote the Public Art Guidelines.
Susan Berry Hill: That's a good question. I'm not sure. I don't know if it was a combination of COPA
and Council. I'm not sure.
Page 81 July 12, 2021
Council Member Nacy: Just curious as we're thinking about who might be the body that writes the
addition.
Mayor Burk: I don't think it was COPA because, I don't think the Commission on Public Art was created
yet, but I don't know. I don't know that, go ahead.
Council Member Nacy: Just thinking ahead, if they are inundated is there a backup plan for who might
be able to actually write the policy for a potential pilot program? Then would Planning Commission have
to be involved at all in this process for the text amendment or any part of it? Are they--?
Susan Berry Hill: All text amendments go through the Planning Commission for public hearing. Any
aspect that pertains to the zoning ordinance would go through them. If the guidelines are referenced in
the zoning ordinance, I'm not sure if they would be or not, they would be a part of that review process.
Council Member Nacy: That was it, thank you.
Mayor Burk: I've written down some things that people have mentioned. I tried to pick up everybody's
suggestions. I'm just going to go through them and see if there are four people that would like to give
guidance to staff as we move forward on this. I think the first one we have to ask and people have
referred to it is, are we going to start this as a pilot program? Do we have four people that would be
interested in starting it as a pilot program? All right. It looks like everybody. Do we have a district that
we would like to start it in or an area that we would like to start it in? Does anybody have a suggestion
on where we should start it? I know where you don't want to get started?
Council Member Nacy: Can we potentially start it in commercial? Is that too broad?
Vice Mayor Martinez: [inaudible].
Council Member Nacy: You want a specific area?
Vice Mayor Martinez: --for the Gateway districts.
Council Member Nacy: Could we say commercial and wherever it lands?
Christopher Spera: The way that I would envision a pilot program is because this is not regulation.
This is a voluntary program, you would set some guidelines for eligibility. The property owner, either
opts in or opts out or asks to be of the pilotees, if you will. It's a completely voluntary program. You set
up your own set of rules, you can define whatever area you want.
Council Member Nacy: The only reason I say potentially commercial broadly is because we may not
get a lot of response. If we want someone to actually utilize it and we say, you can only do it in this one
little spot, it might not end up giving us the feedback we're looking for.
Christopher Spera: Based upon what I heard from each of you, as you went through the questions to
Susan and I, it would seem to me that if you were going to do a pilot program, it might make sense to
say commercial properties outside of H-1.
Council Member Fox: Thank you. That's exactly what I going to ask.
Christopher Spera: Just make it open to those properties, set up some rules. Again, this is a voluntary
program. We're not creating regulation here. You can try it out for size, without running afoul of first
amendment issues. Because again, it's a voluntary program, not regulation.
Mayor Burk: We do have yes for the pilot program. Do we also have yes, to have it commercial outside
of the H-1 for the pilot program? He said H-1, did you--?
Council Member Steinberg: [inaudible].
Page 9j July 12, 2021
Christopher Spera: It's up to you. I was giving you an example. It seemed clear you wanted to stay
out of the Historic District.
Mayor Burk: Right, so the H-1. So are there four votes? Oh, did you want to say something?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Well I was going to say, I mean excluding the H-1 for the pilot program
because I know that the H-1 is definitely going to require a little bit more work when it comes to setting
the guidelines.
Mayor Burk: This is commercial property outside of the H-1. Do we have four people that are willing to
do that? Okay. Ms. Fox, Mr. Steinberg, Ms. Nacy, Mr. Bagdasarian, myself, you guys too? Okay.
Everybody. Okay, that's yes. We are excluding private buildings, correct? At this point. All right.
Christopher Spera: By private, Madam Mayor, you mean residential?
Mayor Burk: Residential, yes. I'm sorry, you're right. Private, residential. Do I need to get four people
to agree to that?
Council Member Fox: [inaudible].
Council Member Steinberg: So that's commercial building [inaudible].
Mayor Burk: So that next one is commercial buildings. The maintenance, I guess we need to give you
as much direction as we can give you. I'll go through these and if we don't want them, we'll just not have
them. The maintenance would be at the requirement of the business, the building owner. Is that four
people okay with that one? Looks like everybody's okay with that one. That's a yes. The historic
guidelines and the Historic District, we don't need that one. Not in the H-1. There can be no distinction
between a commercial building that's a house, a former residence because now it's commercial, so we
can't say you can't do it on a house. That's a new bill. That's a commercial. So that one's out.
Susan Berry Hill: Yes.
Mayor Burk: So that one's out. I don't how to word this one. How COPA and BAR work together? Does
anybody remember who brought that one up?
Council Member Steinberg: I did.
Mayor Burk: What did you want on that one? That they would work together to do what on the pilot?
Sorry I --
Council Member Steinberg: Well, I'm just thinking, I know, COPA has got a lot of work to do, but I
would assume they might like to have some input on this process, especially as part of a pilot program.
I think it'd be a good place to start. In the end, if they decide, "We don't need to be involved in this,"
then they can say so. I think we should at least ask them.
Mayor Burk: What about the BAR? Because I don't think the BAR is really thrilled at the prospect of
doing murals, viewing murals anyplace but in the Historic District. They don't want to be looking at --
Christopher Spera: You've excluded H-1 from the piloting program anyway.
Council Member Steinberg: Well we're excluding —yes.
Mayor Burk: So it wouldn't be the BAR.
Susan Berry Hill: [unintelligible] through the Gateway District though, outside of the H-1. The BAR
might want to have some say [crosstalk].
Page 101 July 12, 2021
Council Member Steinberg: Yes, there are parts of the gateways that are under their review, so we
should at least ask them as well.
Mayor Burk: I think everybody would be happy if you did that. That's okay. Right? Yes, sir.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Can I make a suggestion?
Mayor Burk: Yes, sir.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Since this is a pilot program, I wouldn't want to get both COPA and BAR
completely involved in it. Can we have a subcommittee that's composed of EDC, COPA, and BAR to
get together and put together some guidelines in how we're going to approach this?
Mayor Burk: Sure, if you've got four people that are willing to go along with that one. Let's see,
committee of the EDC, COPA, and the BAR.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Or in any other commission, you think it might have or maybe even a Council
member can help be part of that.
Susan Berry Hill: And there task would be?
Council Member Nacy: [inaudible].
Christopher Spera: You can have a committee composed of one of each of these, a member of each
of those boards.
Vice Mayor Martinez: And maybe a Council --
Susan Berry Hill: Their task again is to develop --
Vice Mayor Martinez: A pilot program —
Susan Berry Hill: --pilot program and guidelines.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Then that way, if we decide to move forward on it, we have a framework that
whoever we decide is responsible for it can work with it.
Council Member Steinberg: [inaudible].
Mayor Burk: This is a commission of EDC, COPA, and the BAR, you want them to develop the pilot
program?
Susan Berry Hill: And guidelines for that.
Mayor Burk: And guidelines.
Vice Mayor Martinez: With the Council member. Here's another thought maybe somebody from staff.
Mayor Burk: Well, I think staffs definitely got to be there. I don't think anybody from Town Council
needs to be there, but staff definitely needs to be there.
Council Member Bagdasarian: We'II deliver it to Susan's desk tomorrow morning.
Mayor Burk: You want someone from Council?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I think so. Personally, I think Ara would be probably the best one to do that
because he's been on EDC, COPA.
Page 111 July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: Ara doesn't have enough to do right now.
Council Member Bagdasarian: I'm fine doing it, but this is technically an ad hoc task force? Right?
It's --
Christopher Spera: Very similar. We would bring you a resolution much as we did with respect to the
Airport that this is an ad hoc, not a standing committee.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Right.
Christopher Spera: It would serve for a limited duration much like the Airport.
Mayor Burk: What is the date? We should put a date that it needs to be completed by, or return to the
Council for-- What date would people want to put this on?
Christopher Spera: Six months. Is that enough time?
Mayor Burk: Six months?
Council Member Steinberg Next meeting.
Mayor Burk: Is six months reasonable, Ms. Berry Hill?
Susan Berry Hill: I guess, I don't really know --
Christopher Spera: We're treading new territory.
Susan Berry Hill: --but we can try.
Council Member Bagdasarian: I think that is fair.
Mayor Burk: If it doesn't, if it turns out that six months isn't enough, there's no reason why you can't
come back to Council and say, "We've been working on it, but the six months doesn't work." That's not
a problem to come back.
Christopher Spera: We can build that, Madam Mayor, into the resolution that basically at the end of
four months, they can make a decision if they want to petition the Council to extend the duration, or
come in and give you a report where things stand and you can consider amending your resolution,
creating the ad hoc committee.
Mayor Burk: Okay.
Christopher Spera: We'll just build that into the resolution for you.
Mayor Burk: We have support, four people for a commission from the EDC, COPA, and the BAR to
develop a pilot program for murals in the commercial areas outside of the H-1. It'll also include a Council
Member, Mr. Bagdasarian, and staff. It will be tasked for six months, but it will come back with a report
to tell us if it needs to continue on. So do we have four people willing to do that, support that?
Council Member Bagdasarian: For clarification, we're talking about --
Mayor Burk: Getting a little nervous now, aren't you?
Council Member Bagdasarian: I can back out, it's not too late. We didn't vote yet. We're talking about
first a pilot program with first draft of the guidelines?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Yes.
Page 121 July 12, 2021
Council Member Bagdasarian: Because we need the guidelines in order to --
Susan Berry Hill: We have to have the guidelines [unintelligible].
Council Member Bagdasarian: Just to be clear too, it's not starting from scratch because we already
have Public Art Guidelines we're incorporating. For everyone at COPA that's at home, we should be
able to get this.
Vice Mayor Martinez: I think the --
Mayor Burk: That's good.
Vice Mayor Martinez: --concerns that have been presented in this presentation could be applied as
part of those guidelines. For example, the scope, the mass, what percentage of the building does a
mural take depending on the size of the building.
Mayor Burk: Well, alright. That's good. You're ready for that?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Do we have four people that are interested in doing that? We have everybody.
Council Member Cummings: [Unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: That's all right. Yes, I didn't see Ara vote. Did you know--?
Mayor Burk: Does this mean I'm going to be covering another one of the EDC meetings? No, I'm only
kidding. All right. You got your marching orders, you know where we are at this point?
Susan Berry Hill: Yes.
Madam Mayor: Thank you. I hope Mr. Watkins feels better soon. Town Council Retreat Follow -Up.
You're doing that one too?
Susan Berry Hill: I'm going to start it. Mr. Ackman is here with me tonight and we are going to try to
address some of your topics that you discussed at your April retreat regarding environmental topics. To
start this off, we're going to give you an overview of what we think you're interested in. Then we'll take
our cues from you. If we miss the boat, let us know and we'll try to address what you are asking for. To
start with, we always look at where is the authority given for implementation of the Town Plan. That is
given in section 15.2-2224.B in the State code. That gives implementation authority to localities in a
number of different ways.
One of those is subdivision ordinance, or DCSM Zoning Ordinance. Those are implementing tools of
our Town Plan policy. We do have policy in our plan right now that addresses environmental factors.
We are going to continue that policy direction in the Legacy Leesburg Town Plan. I'll get into a little bit
of that at the end of the presentation. That sets the basis for what Bill is about to talk about and what I
will follow him on. With that DCSM and SLDR regulations.
Bill Ackman: Good evening. As you're all aware from our last presentation, the Town has very stringent
regulations governing storm water management, floodplain, and land development, including land
disturbance. As we discussed before, any development can begin construction. The developer must
prepare and obtain approved plans from the Town of Leesburg. Regulations for items such as, but not
limited to those items on your screen must meet the strict requirements of the DCSM subdivision
ordinance as well as the zoning ordinance and the Town Code. In addition, all required easements must
be reported associated with the plan as well as a public improvement bond posted with the Town.
There's even more restrictions required for land disturbance before they can go out and break ground.
The plans must be approved, the plats must be recorded, the bond must be posted, but in addition to
that, the State of Virginia's Department of Environmental Management or Department of Environmental
Quality, DEQ must approve a storm water management permit. That'll come in play a little later.
Page 131 July 12, 2021
Loudoun County must approve a grading permit. Before the Loudoun County approves a grading permit
they also require a bond to make sure that the developer keeps the site in a clean condition and free
from runoff onto other dirty water from approaching on other properties adjacent to it. The Corps of
Engineers requires a permit, if any wetlands are being disturbed. As we've discussed numerous times,
any work in the flood plain requires approval from FEMA. Most importantly, no site plan will be approved
unless all special exception conditions, rezoning, proffers, and conformance with the concept
development plans are being strictly adhere to.
How long are plans approved for? Generally, the answer is five years, unless they start construction,
have a substantial amount of work done, under which case they are vested until the project is
completed. What happens to the stalled projects? What happens to those projects that are vested,
they're out there? They start construction, you look and you're like, when are they ever going to finish?
There are several scenarios I'm going to throw at you. The first scenario is, there's a temporary delay,
maybe the economy. Maybe the developer is refinancing and he works with us, he works with the
County.
He says, "I'm going to stabilize the site. I'm going to start back up as soon as possible." The County
does inspections every week, as well as after every major storm. Any violations they see, they pass
along to the developer to take care of. If the developer does not take care of it, then the County will pull
their bond and take care of it themselves. Option number two and I like to call this the Crescent Park
option or the Crescent Park scenario. Construction ceases as a new owner takes ownership of the
property. In this particular case, a site must be stabilized and continue to be stabilized and the Loudoun
County inspector does his thing, as I mentioned earlier, and the County continues to inspect.
The applicant works with Town staff to make sure the plans they have remain valid and they make
changes to suit their need as a new owner. During this entire period, the bonding remains in place. At
any time, the Town can step in, pull the bond, and do any work that needs to be done. Option three, or
scenario three. The developer desires to permanently stop construction and walk away from the project.
Many times they don't want their bond pulled for financial reasons down the road. They will stabilize the
entire site, they'll finish all required storm water management items that are stated in their permit, that
I mentioned earlier, to meet all State, local and Federal requirements.
Once that is done, they will be let off their bond and their plans will then become void. If they ever want
to do anything with that site again, they would have to start all over. Option four is like the worst case
scenario. Oh, sorry. I'm on option four. I apologize. I got carried away talking and forgot to hit the clicker,
but option four is the nuclear option. The developer walks away, he leaves the site a mess and in which
case the County would step in, they would pull the developers erosion sediment control bond and they
would stabilize the site. At that point, the Town would step in and then we would pull our public
improvement bonds. We would do any storm water management improvements that's required by the
State permit that was granted by the State and put in any public infrastructure needed to maintain it.
Only then would we avoid the plans. Those are the points I wanted to make. Susan, you want to?
Susan Berry Hill: Okay.
Vice Mayor Martinez: May I ask a question?
Mayor Burk: Sure.
Vice Mayor Martinez: My concern is on the performance bonds. Are they typically enough to stabilize
the site? I'm assuming you're going to pull their bond, we then take control of the money and we can
use that to stabilize the site. Is that typically enough?
Bill Ackman: There's actually two bonds in place. The first bond is the County bond. The County,
before they issue a grading permit, with their bond, they would come out, make sure permanent erosion
sedimentation controls are in place, and that the site is completely stabilized so that the public
improvement bond would only be used for putting in any storm water management requirements that
would be needed. Because even rough grading a site requires storm water management on a large
Page 141 July 12, 2021
development. That would have to be put in. Generally, there would be enough money in that bond.
Generally. Every case is a little different.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Are there any monetary penalties to the developer for walking away?
Bill Ackman: It would just be their financial reputation --
Vice Mayor Martinez: Forfeiting the bonds and maybe not get an approval the next time they want to
apply?
Bill Ackman: We would probably scrutinize pretty carefully, yes.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Thank you, Mike.
Susan Berry Hill: We know from your retreat you're also interested in tree canopy. Just going over
briefly what the tree canopy regulation states. The State code provides enabling legislation to establish
tree canopy requirements. We do have those in Article 12 of the Zoning Ordinance. They vary
depending on the land use and the intensity of development of the property, but they range from 10%
canopy to 15% to 20% is the highest level of tree canopy protection. That's provided through a number
of different means. It can be preservation of existing trees shown on the plans, it could be general
landscaping, street trees, and buffer areas are included in that canopy calculation.
It could be a combination of preservation of existing trees plus planting new trees as a part of those
buffers or street tree plans, or the State code allows for and so does our zoning ordinance, a fee in lieu
of providing planting, meeting the tree canopy requirements. Sometimes developers find that they have
a difficult time meeting that tree canopy requirement if utilities are in the way and their site is constricted
by other such things. That gives them an opportunity to pay for the tree canopy that they cannot plant
on site.
Buffer yards are Article 12 of the Zoning Ordinance addresses buffer yards. Those are intended
primarily to provide a physical transition between land uses. Our zoning ordinance covers all different
kinds of situations from where there's a least amount of transition needed to where there's a greater
transition that is needed between, for example, light industrial uses and residential uses. That would
be the greatest buffer area. In the Downtown where your uses are very proximate to one another, the
buffering is not needed as much. We also have in Article 12 stream valley buffer regulations. That
establishes the setback from a creek or stream for development. It's intended to provide naturalized
areas that protect those riparian buffer areas. It's provided to reduce runoff and increase the quality of
the stream. That's the purpose of the stream valley buffers.
It can be reduced if on -site best managed practices are provided. Best management practices are those
things that can be done to increase the quality of the water. On our capital projects, when we need to
go into build a capital project, we have a policy of replacing one-to-one each tree that's removed. If, for
example, the tree replacement can't work because again utilities, for example, we provide the money
in our tree fund. We have a tree fund that is established for that purpose. Sometimes, we, the Town
contributes to that, sometimes the private developer contributes to it through the payment in lieu
allowance.
With legislative applications, the Council can accept when volunteered, limited or phased land
disturbance, enhanced preservation measures, and environmental site designs. I'm going to go over an
example of how we use those things in a land development application. This is the River Creek now
known as East Quarter property. It is directly adjacent to the Costco. You can see that on the left side
of this aerial. This was the first submission that was submitted to staff. As you can see, and if you all
remember that site, it was a very heavily treed site, lots of hardwoods on the site, it was very high -
quality tree stand on the property. With that submission, we were very interested in trying to save as
much of the tree canopy as we could. We worked with the applicant on that. Their second submission
came in with this.
Then we moved to a higher degree of preservation for this plan, where they actually shifted their unit
type from an apartment -type product to townhouses and concentrated those townhouse developments
Page 151 July 12, 2021
in the center of the site, thereby preserving a good part of the tree stands that surrounds the
development. That happened over the third, fourth, and fifth submissions. This shows just a graphic of
that design. With the approval of that process, we established a tree preservation through two things,
the design of the property, as well as the proffers. This is an example of a proffer that provides for tree
preservation areas.
The development is held to that proffer, it's also held to the concept development plan. If there's any
change in the plan, they have to demonstrate substantial conformance to this land development plan.
The tree preservation is held. That is an overview of regulation addressing environmental topics in our
DCSM, SLDR, and the Zoning Ordinance. Where are we going with our policy? That is Legacy Leesburg
has a number of different goals and strategies within the plan that are of interest to you. You'll learn
more about these things when the plan comes to you, but some of these things that are in the plan is
the Green Print Initiative.
That strategy suggests that the Town map all areas that are natural areas, park areas, green areas, so
that we have a good understanding of the whole network throughout the Town. There's another strategy.
The third bullet here, Town -wide environmental resource assessment, it's looking at those individual
natural areas, park areas, and private green areas and cataloging those and proposing what we want
to do to enhance them. Green building and site design is also another strategy that's in the plan. Energy
use, tree canopy, again, trying to continue our efforts with encouraging tree canopy preservation and
enhancement.
Then lastly, urban agriculture is another strategy that's in the plan that encourages our environmental
goals. Those are things that are currently in the plan that should enhance our environmental efforts.
Just lastly, a word about what the General Assembly has some House Bill and Senate Bill that were
discussed in this last General Assembly. House Bill 2042, it gives localities the ability to exceed tree
replacement and conservation for specific circumstances that include development impacts on storm
water, recurrent flooding, and housing redlined areas. That becomes effective July 1 of '22, I believe.
Senate Bill 1393 creates a stakeholder group to address tree conservation. That's effective if reenacted
in '22. We noted here maybe Council wishes to participate in that stakeholder group. Lastly, Council
always provides a legislative package every year. In the past, we've supported enabling legislation to
strengthen tree conservation efforts. Perhaps this is something Council wishes to do next time. That is
a summary of everything environmental. We're here to answer any questions that you might have.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: I have one question. Under the Green Print Initiative, number three, it says we
would require having a developer convert a portion of existing developed land to open space. How
exactly would that work? How would they take what's not open space, green area, whatever, and
convert it to especially in infill areas. I understand the preservation, but I don't know if requiring
conversion is, I don't know, is it legal?
Susan Berry Hill: That would be through a legislative application. If the opportunity presented itself to
cluster the development on the property such that you could leave area for more green open space or
natural areas, then that would be a policy that encourages that to happen through the legislative
process.
Council Member Fox: Basically, if it's an encouragement and they say, "Oh, I'm fine with that," but not
have be a requirement with that. It just seems like a coercion to do something that's not there and put
it there. That's an issue.
Susan Berry Hill: The example that I provided for the River Creek/East Quarter, that was something
staff suggested to the applicant. They didn't have to try to concentrate the development in the center of
the site, but they saw the value in it because they actually got more units out of the development than
they initially did. We came up with a way to help not only preserve the tree canopy there but it also
benefited the developer in terms of a development plan that he liked.
Page 161 July 12, 2021
Council Member Fox: So there would be no arm twisting just working with and if works out and they're
fine with it, okay.
Susan Berry Hill: Yes.
Council Member Fox: I don't want the arm twisting. That's all. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. Thanks for the presentation, Susan. It was pretty clear about the
environment improvements and who's responsible. I guess the question that Vice Mayor Martinez
alluded to, I wasn't sure we got the answer. The funds that are in place, are they sufficient? In the worst
case scenarios are we sometimes left as we say holding the bag?
Bill Ackman: Until we're in that situation, we never really know. We try-- Public Works every so many
years adds an inflationary number to the bond estimate and that's what it is. It is an estimate. The best
answer I think I can give you is, a lot of developers complain that our bond estimates are too high. That
they can get it done cheaper.
Council Member Steinberg: I'm shocked.
Bill Ackman: I know, I know and if that's any indication, it would appear as though that the numbers
are there. We've always remind them that this isn't the cost that you get. This is the cost that the Town
gets when we put out something to bid to fix something that you didn't do correctly. Thereby, we would
expect those costs to be a little bit higher.
Council Member Steinberg: All right. I don't know if this is a question for you or Susan. Why did DEQ
downgrade efficiencies on water quality devices and what qualifies as a water quality device?
Bill Ackman: I'll take that one. By downgrading them it meant that, for example, you had a
manufactured filter and in the past they would have said that any storm water that runs through that
filter would filter out 70% of the pollutants. After having them installed for a period of time, the DEQ
realized it wasn't really filtering out what was replicated in a laboratory somewhere, but it was actually
more like 45% or 50%. They downgraded them from giving credit to filtering up the 70% of pollutants to
only filtering, depending upon the device, somewhere between 20% and 50%. By downgrading those
devices, it actually enhanced and increased water qualities.
Council Member Steinberg: They didn't actually downgrade the device so much as they downgraded
the expectations for the results of the devices?
Bill Ackman: Correct. They downgraded their efficiencies, which was a good thing.
Council Member Steinberg: No, it sounds like a good thing. Talking about the fee in lieu for the tree
canopy then, does this come into play only when a developer has no choice? You've mentioned
underground utilities and so on that would make planting trees a difficulty. Can the developer choose
as, say in the case of parking sometimes, to simply pay a fee in lieu as opposed to providing the desired
tree canopy?
Susan Berry Hill: We try very hard to get the planting to be done by the developer. That's used only
when there are specific circumstances where it makes it very difficult to meet the canopy, such as
overhead lines are in the way, or underground utilities prohibited from meeting that canopy requirement.
Council Member Steinberg: How's the fee-- the amount? How's that fee determined?
Susan Berry Hill: There is an amount in the zoning ordinance for a replacement cost for that tree. It's
specified in the ordinance.
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. The stakeholder group mentioned, do we know when that is and
what the overall scope of it is going to be?
Page 171 July 12, 2021
Susan Berry Hill: I do not know. We can find out if it's something that interests Council.
Council Member Steinberg: Yes, I think it would be nice to know. You mentioned housing redlined
areas. I wasn't sure exactly what the context of that was. I saw an article a couple of days ago about
tree canopies and how they relate to different types of economic areas in various cities and towns. What
the article pointed out was, oftentimes, what we think of as redlined areas had the least number of trees
in their areas, which means this area here of a lower -income is 10 degrees hotter than this area over
here of a higher income. Is that what we're talking about here, or?
Susan Berry Hill: I can't really speak to that. I didn't follow that bill closely through the General
Assembly, so I don't know.
Council Member Steinberg: We don't know yet. Okay. Then, is this conversation only supposed to be
about building issues in the Town Plan and so on? Other environmental issues, in my opinion, we would
need to really start looking at our recycling program. I saw Vice Mayor Martinez' email regarding the
blue bin for glass recycling. We know we have to take a hard look at what's happening to glass. I don't
expect that necessarily to be included in Legacy Leesburg, but it certainly should be part of our overall
discussion.
Susan Berry Hill: I believe the EAC is looking into the recycling issue with the glass.
Council Member Steinberg: Then I guess at some point down the road, we will also start looking at
the Town fleets, the LPD fleets, and staff fleets, and so on, as we think about converting internal
combustion engines to electric, I suppose, as part of our discussion as well. Okay, thanks.
Mayor Burk: Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Thank you. Just a couple of questions. Are these strategies-- Has this
been reviewed by the Planning Commission, these [crosstalk] --
Susan Berry Hill: This is in the current draft that is being reviewed by the Planning Commission.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Okay, and has the EAC also provided their input on this?
Susan Berry Hill: Yes. They weighed in heavily on-- Its principle five is all things green, and they
weighed in heavily on that. A lot of their contributions have been inputted into the most recent draft and
that's online.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Great. I know last month, we discussed the PACE program and C -
PACE. Would that be applicable to the green building and site design aspects? That's more of a funding
mechanism, but would that be considered part of that initiative?
Susan Berry Hill: Good question. I don't know. I don't remember if the plan currently addresses that.
I'll have to look it up.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Okay. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Will you email us tomorrow and let us know?
Susan Berry Hill: Yes, we'll do.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Nacy?
Council Member Nacy: Oh, thank you. I had typed a question down. Let me see what I did with it. It
was about the fee in lieu. I think you might have already answered it. I just wanted to make a comment
to attest to everything that Susan and Bill were both saying that the staff really does a great job of
suggesting to developers to use even things like better environmentally friendly light bulbs. When
applications come to the Planning Commission, a lot of the times when the really great developers give
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a presentation and go through all of that, they will point those things out. I know it's not something we
can ask them to do, but the Planning Department really does a great job of suggesting it.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I'm glad Mr. Steinberg brought up the blue bin thing out. I know we talked about
a lot of this, but there were some other things that I think we're missing that should be part of this
discussion. One is the blue bin. Our glass recyclables has been a real big headache for us in trying to
figure out what we need to do. The biggest problem is the weight. I can remember back when I was a
kid, I could get a couple of pennies for a bottle. Now it's like you can't give them away or you can't even
throw them away. We need to find some Town -wide solution for that.
The other one was, one of the things that I talked about, I believe at the retreat, was finding a way to
reduce the use of plastic bags or any plastic bottles, and some plan or initiative for the community.
Either we ban them, or we have them pay a user fee to use the plastic bags. That's direct revenue to
the Town that we can use for environmental issues. Did you have a comment?
Kaj Dentler: I was just going to interject that that's on your schedule for August the 9th. Tonight's topics
that Susan and Bill have been discussing have only been focused on your requests for open space and
development standards. All the other things are important, but they're not what you asked for, for this
discussion. [Crosstalk] They're all out there in a different way.
Mayor Burk: They are on future agendas.
Kaj Dentler: They're all coming.
Vice Mayor Martinez: With that, I'l l just say a couple other comments in what Neil was also saying, we
need to reduce the carbon footprint. We also need to think about implementing solar energy when we
have an opportunity to update some of our systems, find ways to use electric system, and reduce the
carbon footprint. Those are just things that, you talked about LEDs, the lighting and all that. These are
just things that I would like to see staff take a considered effort. Of course, the biggest problem we have
right now with staff is, you're overwhelmed. I don't want to tax you anymore unless we get you some
more resources.
These are things that we need to look at and do something about for our Town and the community and
to reduce that carbon footprint. Thank you, Susan, and thank you, Mr. Dentler.
Mayor Burk: Susan, I just have one question. The PACE program, is it in the Leesburg Legacy? Is it
something we tell the developers about that there is this program?
Susan Berry Hill: I didn't hear the first thing you said. The what program?
Mayor Burk: The PACE program, the financing for our solar.
Susan Berry Hill: I've got to follow up on the plan and see if it's in there. If it is, I'll let you know about
that. I'll let if it's not either, and perhaps that's something we can recommend to the Planning
Commission that they include in the draft.
Mayor Burk: That is something that EAC talked about. They did at their last meeting talk extensively
about glass and what to do with glass. There's conflicting information that says that some of the glass
is being crushed up and being used in the landfill to cover the landfills rather than using soils. Then
there were other things also. They're continuing to have that discussion because they want to make
sure that they have the most up-to-date information. We'll hear back from the EAC in the not too distant
future. Thank you. Very nice. Appreciate it, even though you were 5 minutes and 13 seconds over.
All right. Next person.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Actually there were two presentations, Bill and yours. I think we should give you
some leeway.
Page 191 July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: Thank you. The next one is the Civilian Oversight Body for the Leesburg Police
Department. We don't have the Chief here tonight.
Kaj Dentler: The Chief was supposed to be here, I'm not sure where he's at. I can assure this
presentation won't go five minutes over. What we're wanting to do tonight is just really set the table.
Council has discussed having a task force, or an ad hoc committee, or some type of body to consider
a Civilian Oversight Body for the Police Department. This slide is really the presentation, just in order
to help you think about what are your discussion points because you have to decide what you want to
do. What's not up there is the purpose. If you want to have one, why are you having one? What is the
reason that you're doing it? Make sure that you consider that.
From there, and these were all in different orders of priority to you possibly. Is it a task force? Is it
another advisory body that you're creating? Is it a limitation of time in order to report back to Council?
Just like we talked in the first item six months to come back. Do you want this particular body to have
6, 12 month reporting period? How are you going to make up the body? What's the membership going
to look like? If there is one, how are you going to appoint that? Clearly, the purpose and the scope is,
to me, the best advice I can give you is, what exactly are you trying to accomplish so that the rest can
just be created to get you where you want to go?
Chris is here to answer all the legal questions that you may have. Maybe you have a police officer here
[crosstalk] --
Mayor Burk: She's saying no.
Kaj Dentler: Just teasing. Let me know if she pulls a stun gun out on me.
Mayor Burk: Okay, yes.
Kaj Dentler: [inaudible] questions here.
Mayor Burk: I'd like to start with this one because I had the opportunity this weekend to meet with a
former Marine, an FBI agent, and a former Leesburg police officer. The thing that became very, very
apparent to me very quickly into the conversation is that the Leesburg Police Department is very highly
regarded. It's a professionally run department. Towns and other counties come to our Police
Department to observe how we're doing policing. Our Chief is considered by other departments and
Federal agencies as an example of true leadership. The FBI is very aware of him and holds him in very
high regard.
He runs a very professional police force, and he sets his standards very high and demands that those
standards are adhered to, with mentoring programs, professional development programs, and one-on-
one interactions with leadership. The Leesburg Police Department is proud of its diversity, it has an
African -American Chief and also a woman, African -American woman second in command, and another
woman in a third command. Many of the officers have come from very different backgrounds and we
have multiple languages that are spoken in our department. I have to ask, what is the problem that
we're trying to solve?
Where's the data that indicates that there is a problem with our Police Department? I'd like to know how
many interactions the police have every year and how many complaints do we have from those
interactions, and what are they for? Are they for civil rights complaints, domestic abuse, trafficking to
kidnapping? What's the data? I don't think we can make any decisions until we have that data. I think
the next thing that we're going to have to be very careful about is, if you're going to do this task force or
a board, we need to be very careful on who's on that board. Will it be people with law enforcement
experience?
Will the Chief make the recommendations to Council to who should be on it? Will we allow someone
who's a domestic abuser, or someone who has gun issues or drug interactions with the police? What
are the standards and the objectives for the board, and what do we expect them to do? Has everyone
on this Council done a ride -along? That's something that I've done twice. I would recommend it to
anybody that hasn't had the opportunity. It is really very interesting. We approved our officers having
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body in -car cameras, so there is accountability. If a police officer is involved in a shooting, it is not the
local police that investigates, it is the State police.
They don't investigate themselves. I'd love to see a map of the State and Federal oversight of the local
police departments. Where is the data? Who investigates when and who does the reporting? We have
a model Police Department with excellent leadership team in a diverse community that is served by a
diverse Police Department. I'm just trying to figure out why do we need this task force or commission,
and what are we basing this on? My concerns run very deep that we have to be careful that we are not
making it sound like we have a department that needs oversight that is having problems.
We have an excellent Police Department that is recognized throughout the State. I wanted to bring
forward my concerns and my general thoughts in regard to this. Kari. Nacy, sorry, Council Member
Nacy. Sorry.
Council Member Nacy: Thank you. I have a disclosure to make before I make my comments. I have
consulted with our Town Attorney regarding topics to do with the police force and organizational conflicts
of interests because my husband was just recently hired by the Town of Leesburg to go through the
academy and become a police officer and today was his first day. I am disclosing that.
Mayor Burk: Thank you. We appreciate that.
Council Member Nacy: Will recuse myself when it's appropriate, at the appropriate times. I will always
make sure I remind everyone with that disclosure before we discuss anything with the Police
Department. All that being said, I completely agree with everything you just said. I had written down the
same comment about, I'd like to see some data if there are issues, but what problem are we trying to
solve? It doesn't seem like there is one, but if there is, and I'm not sure if that's something we would
have to gather in a closed session, because it has to do with HR -type things. I agree, I would like to see
some data if it exists.
Mayor Burk: There's a lot of data.
Council Member Nacy: I mean within the Town for issues that we may have had with police officers
specifically. I did not realize until you just said it that we have oversight from the State police and other
organizations. That's great. The Chief made a comment the first time that this came up that, if we have
a board like this, his thought on it, his vision for it was to be for educational purposes. I think if we do
pursue something like this, I agree that it would be to establish an educational, I guess, advisory board
between the citizens. I don't think it should dive into at all, anything that has to do with investigations or
things that should be handled by Human Resources or an outside law enforcement body.
Mayor Burk: All right. Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: Thank you. I actually had a lot of thoughts, so I wrote them down too. I'm going
to go ahead and agree with Council Member Nacy and with the Mayor about the problem and the
purpose. I don't know what the purpose is and I'd like to be able to know the purpose. If there is an
issue, why couldn't our Chief or why we would consider him ill-equipped to deal with this himself. I see
it as another solution in search of a problem here in Leesburg. I'd like to know what a Citizen Oversight
Committee would do that we're not able to. What would enable us to do if we actually had that? What
kind of problem is there? I need those facts.
Do we have a problem with racism in our PD? If so, do we have any indication whatsoever that our
current Police Chief would be ill-equipped to handle that problem? If so, what would that be? While an
oversight committee is the thing right now, there's not enough reason, in my opinion, for us to burden a
very well -run, well -respected Police Department. Members of that committee would largely comprised
of individuals who probably have close to no qualifications for police work, who would insert themselves
to oversee a work of professionals.
Moreover, I would say that this would add more layers of administration, red tape things, whatever you
want to call it, adding more inefficiencies to what we already all agree is a well -run operation over there.
If I were to consider this, Council Member Nacy did bring up the education component. If we're going
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to consider this, that would be the only reason. If anyone can articulate the problem, I would consider it
only if they can articulate the problem we're trying to solve. We've got to stop with the implications and
work on facts.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. Before I make comments, I have a clarification question for the
Town Attorney. Virginia Code 9.1-601 Al and A2 are mentioned. On first reading they seem to be
contradictory in that, Al says you can't do it and A2 says you can, but is what A2 indicating that you
can, but it's the County that's going to do it as opposed to the Town?
Christopher Spera: As I recall the two sections that you're referring to, the distinction is that one defines
what a locality is. The locality that is able to create an oversight body. Towns are not included in that
definition.
Council Member Steinberg: It says, however, this is A2, the Town's Police Department can be
subjected to an oversight body by Virginia Code blah, blah, A2, express the [crosstalk] --
Christopher Spera: It's correct. That's a distinction I have tried to point out to anyone who would care
to listen, including our legislative delegation, and in my letter to the Attorney General that you directed
me to prepare, that it seems a little bit odd that a Town is not included in one of the localities that is
authorized to create one of these oversight bodies, but the Town's Police Department is clearly subject
to an oversight body created by, what I would call, the umbrella entity, the County.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay, fine. Thank you. All of that aside then, these are my comments.
The Town of Leesburg does indeed have an excellent Police Department and a fantastic Chief, now.
We're in a good position now. Now, that perspective might be viewed slightly different by other members
of the community who could see it entirely differently. I think that's one of the things we want to look at.
The communication that we can develop so more of the community feels comfortable. It's funny, it's not
just the Police Department. Oftentimes our residents have difficulty communicating with the Planning
Department or the Streets Department.
It's usually when they have a problem and then they don't know how to work with the system or who to
talk to. My feeling is, great communication's always a great idea and the time to develop a good program
is when you don't have a critical situation or a serious problem, because that's when tensions get higher,
and it becomes more immediate and sometimes then you take steps that aren't as well thought out. I
would in no way cast dispersions on our Police Department, which does an excellent job, but I would
think that in this context of a good situation, this is when we want to form some kind of communicative
body with professionals, people who are familiar with law enforcement.
There's people who are willing to get involved, and obviously, as we say, regular citizens that the
makeup of a commission or task force, whatever phrase we'd like to come up with, would be made up
of. Again, I will just did iterate, I think now would be an excellent time to try to do something like that as
opposed to when we're forced to do something like that. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I wish, since I was the one who brought this up, that I had been able to speak
first and talk about what my vision of this is. I believe it's to be a task force. I would love to see members
of the Council as part of it, but we also appoint somebody that we feel has the right motives in putting
this together. Now, as far as purpose and scope, my whole idea was to, one, educate everybody who
is part of this task force but also to determine, do we really need an advisory commission? Definitely
not oversight because we don't have the authority to create an oversight committee, but somebody that
works with the Police Department, and Council Member Steinberg is right.
Last year when we had the things happening in St. Louis and all around the country, we got a lot of
emails questioning our policies. Now, I will say this as far as our Police Department goes, it is top notch.
We have a great Chief and he is proactive in solving things before they happen. I think when we talked
to him or I talked to him about this, I said this is a great way to start it off, to understand what we might
Page 221 July 12, 2021
be looking for and it's an education to the people on the committee on what our Police Department is
really all about. This is not an advisory commission. It's a task force to determine, do we really need it?
It's not something that's going to go in there and start causing all kinds of grief. No, I would like to see
the Chief work with this task force, get all the information out there. When it comes time to where we
have to explain ourselves, we can say, we took the effort to be proactive. Council Member Steinberg
also said something that I was going to mention. Now, is a time where we can afford to look at it, take
care of it and if we find out that, guess what, we don't need anything because our Police Department
doesn't need it, that's fine. I can live with that.
I just want to make sure that we are serving our residents who are concerned about this and that we
educate them. Those who are going to be part of the task force and then they can go out and talk about
whether or not our Police Department needs help. I personally don't think it does, but I think this is a
way of working with the Police Department, getting out a positive message. If there's somewhere down
the road we need some help, we have it. That's it. No, there's no conspiracy, there's no nothing that
we're trying to undermine the Police Department.
We're trying to help them in working with our residents, having a conduit between our Police Department
and our residents, because sometimes that message gets not taken the right way. That is my comment.
Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Thank you. I just want to echo what the Vice Mayor and Council Member
Steinberg said. You're right, we do not have an issue right now that we need to face, but that's our
opinion. We cannot put ourselves on every citizens' shoes that interact with our police, just like we can't
with those who interact with our other Town staff. I look at this task force as simply an education vehicle
to help educate the public on the processes and the policies in place by the police, but also to help us
educate what the police need, because we should have officers on this task force that can talk to us
about what they need as members of the police force, that maybe it's not getting through the ranks and
the file of what's happening at the police station.
I really believe that it's all about education and being proactive. You should never look down about
being proactive. It's much easier to deal with these very heavy conversations now, when there's not the
emotion of a specific incident to drive those conversations, I'd like to hear from the Police, the individual
officers. Maybe there's something they can offer that we can put into place in a policy, or we've heard
the Chief talk about having trouble recruiting folks to fill the ranks. Maybe there's some solutions there
from the men and women who serve every day to help us as a Town to better serve those folks.
I just look at this task force not as a group looking for a solution to a problem that's not there, it's getting
the citizens involved in their government. That's the ultimate device of living in America. We're a
representative democracy. It doesn't have to just be the folks elected, it can be the folks who step up
and want to serve and can look at tough situations and make those decisions. I just think it would just
be short-sighted of us as a Council to not have the political will to say, "Let's have these conversations,
and if something boils up, we can have the conversation now, we can talk about it and we can find a
solution and move on."
If nothing comes to the forefront, we still have educated people about what the men and women who
serve in the Leesburg Police Department do every day. It all just helps create the community that
everyone-- There's a reason why everyone comes and moves to Leesburg and lives here and stays
there, is because they love it. This will only strengthen that. It's not going to bring it down.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: I 'll keep this brief because there've been so many strong comments.
Obviously, this is an emotionally charged issue. I also do believe in being proactive rather than being
reactive when something happens that causes us to make decisions under duress and we don't want
to do that, but we go back to the why. Why are we doing this? What is the purpose? From my
perspective, it's about citizen engagement. There's different levels of citizen engagement. Oversight is
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certainly one of the most, I would say, extreme levels and you have appeals. Then you have the
education side of engagement. I think looking at what is the most appropriate level of engagement for
citizens and how do we build those connections, we do have an incredible force here in Leesburg. We're
lucky to have a chief like Chief Brown and officers that are interested in being part of the task force, by
the way. You're here. I do think it's important. I don't think that we can have enough citizen engagement.
This is an opportunity to look at how do we, as citizens, connect with the Police, and as Council Member
Cummings mentioned, and vice versa? Listen to some of the needs and challenges of our force that
we can address.
What makes the most sense for Leesburg today, but also have a framework to look into the future and
how do we engage with our citizens more effectively. We can never stop improving in any department.
Whether it's the Police Department, whether it's Public Works, whether it's Economic Development, we
can never stop improving. That should be something that we should adopt as a part of our culture as a
Town, constantly improving. I know that the Town Manager does it on a regular basis, but I think it's
something that we should consider across the board. How can we improve? What can we do today to
improve things for tomorrow? That's it. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Okay.
Council Member Fox: Madam Mayor, can I just add something?
Mayor Burk: Yes, of course.
Council Member Fox: I heard about the engagement and I agree with that, but I would contend that
our Police Department has, I think more than any other department in this Town, has done such an
amazing job with community outreach. They tell people who they are already. There's been no incident,
not incident, but no lack of opportunity for any citizen to opine or anything like that. That's in place
already. I want to give them kudos for actually getting out there and engaging. That happens already
and they do tell people who they are.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Thank you. I'm still stuck on the purpose. I need a clarification. Someone, Mr.
Martinez, if you want to make a purpose and see if we can get some clarification and votes on it.
Vice Mayor Martinez: What I suggested is to review the Police Department's policies and procedures,
and to determine whether or not we need an advisory commission for the Police Department. It's strictly
an educational and citizens are being part of it.
Council Member Nacy: Can I have a quick clarifying question?
Mayor Burk: Yes.
Council Member Nacy: When we say the Police Department's policies and procedures, could you
explain what that means because they enforce the law. Outside of the law, what are their--?
Vice Mayor Martinez: For example, last year during the racial strife we had, there was a group of
people that are going around to local communities asking us to implement certain policies, like the
getting rid of the chokehold and other things.
Council Member Nacy: [unintelligible].
Vice Mayor Martinez: Right. The good news is our Chief already implemented that, but that doesn't
mean that there aren't other things like that that they could improve on. I'm not looking for them to make
recommendations on changes in the policies. It's more understanding what our Police Department is
doing and how they're benefiting the community. What happens there then is they then go back into the
community and, "Hey, what part of this Police Department is doing a great job?" They could end up
being an advocate for our Police Department, more than doing nothing but criticizing it. That's what we
want to do. We want to make our citizens understand that there's a lot of people out there that won't
speak up, so these people will be speaking for them.
Page 241 July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: The task force is to review police policy and procedures to understand what the Police
Department--?
Vice Mayor Martinez: --and determine if there's a need for any further movement.
Mayor Burk: A need for a-- we can't say any movement. What's a better term? Is there a need for an
oversight committee?
Vice Mayor Martinez: No. You can't have an oversight. An advisory commission.
Mayor Burk: They're not going to be the advisory commission?
Vice Mayor Martinez: No, they're not. They're just a task force trying to determine if there is a need for
one. More than anything, as the Chief had mentioned, this is an opportunity to educate. Once you
educate then people become your advocate and once they understand what you're truly doing.
[Unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would like to have a task force to review police policy and
procedures to understand what the Police Department does and determine if there was a need for an
advisory committee?
Council Member Steinberg: Madam Mayor?
Mayor Burk: Yes?
Council Member Steinberg: If I can offer some context to Vice Mayor Martinez. In the NAACP, for
example, they have a Legal Redress Committee. If a member of the NAACP or any member of the
community feels they have an issue and aren't quite sure where to go, they can take an issue to the
Legal Redress Commission or Committee. That committee knows how to deal with your bureaucracy
and the various types of agencies that have to be dealt with. I see this as a similar context in that we're
creating perhaps a body that understands the system and knows how to communicate with the system.
This is oftentimes one of the greatest feelings that citizens they don't understand how to get into the
system or don't feel like anybody's listening. Again, to me, it's a situation of just creating greater
communication between the force and the community.
Mayor Burk: The wording says the task force is to review the police policy and procedures to
understand what the Police Department is doing and determine a need for an advisory committee. Are
you now adding that there would be a redress?
Vice Mayor Martinez: No.
Mayor Burk: I don't understand what you were trying to add?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Basically, it says it would be giving if they ended up doing an advisory
commission, part of that would be being an additional form of communication facilitator between the
Police and the community at large.
Mayor Burk: When everybody speaks, they're supposed to have three minutes after the original five
minutes. Sorry, Eileen.
Vice Mayor Martinez: A lot of that is more in the future. I'm happy with what you wrote and I think as
we move further on we can reconnect those different aspects to it.
Mayor Burk: All right. Are there four people that are happy with the wording there? All right. Mr.
Steinberg, Bagdasarian, Cummings, and Vice Mayor. Now you need to determine who is going to be
on this committee. Do we have any suggestions on that? Yes, Mr. Vice Mayor?
Page 251 July 12, 2021
Vice Mayor Martinez: My suggestion was have one of the- a staff member, a Police Department
member or two, have each Council member appoint a person. Part of that criteria would be to make
sure that they have experience with law enforcement or at least legally. I know a person I'm thinking
about as a lawyer who understands a lot of these issues. I would take any recommendations from our
Town Attorney on who else should be part of that. Maybe an HR person.
Christopher Spera: It would seem to me based upon the scope that was approved with the four votes
that what you're looking at is less HR issues and more is there a disconnect between what's going on
in terms of outreach, understanding between the Police Department and the community. That's what I
thought I heard. I don't know if that's an HR issue or even if it's a legal issue.
Vice Mayor Martinez: What I don't want this task force to do, sorry, is to cross the line between that
and an HR issue. That's what I want to prevent is you're going into an area that this is not your scope.
I know as soon as we start getting into some of this, I want to make sure that we don't cross that line.
That's the only reason I was suggesting. Of course, that could be you.
Christopher Spera: It could be me. Obviously, I serve at the Council's pleasure and I'm happy to do
whatever it is that you need me to do. It seems to me that what you suggested is you have this
committee, whatever you want to call it --
Vice Mayor Martinez: Task force.
Christopher Spera: --and the intent of it is to basically reach out to stakeholders, reach out to the
community, interact with both the Police Department and people in the community and figure out where
the connection is good or where the connection is bad. I don't know that that's particularly HR or
particularly legal. I think you just want people that you trust to be able to reach out to the community
and accurately give you feedback.
Now, again, as staff, both HR and the Town Attorney's Office can support whoever you appoint. We
could provide that input as staff.
Mayor Burk: All right, Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Just also for clarification, we're talking about looking at identifying
opportunities for increased citizen engagements, right? Opportunities or assessing where we are with
that. Council Member Fox's comment, is it ideal right now? There's a level of citizen engagement ideal
but to have that dialogue I think is important.
Vice Mayor Martinez: [Unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: Can we have Mr. Steinberg?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Sure.
Council Member Steinberg: I'll go back to what I said at the very beginning since we're not in a crisis
mode, we're not faced by a given situation, at least we don't think so. We actually have some luxury of
time in coming up with what we feel might be the best approach to this thing. Now we have already in
the Town 12 commissions. Do we want to consider creating a permanent commission where Council
members come up with appointees and it acts just like any of our other commissions on an ongoing
basis so that as problems arise, we have a body that is prepared to work with both the police and the
residents for any serious problems or not serious problems necessarily? That's a thought.
Mayor Burk: Are you putting that forward for tonight? Did you want --
Council Member Steinberg: I'm saying that is how we can consider shaping this for the long-term. It's
not like we have to [inaudible] [crosstalk] Go ahead.
Vice Mayor Martinez: For short term, we should just stick to a task force.
Page 26] July 12, 2021
Mayor Burk: Excuse me. Would you finish what you were saying, please?
Council Member Steinberg: Yes, I think long-term, that is a situation we might want to create but short
term, we have to start somewhere, of course. With this advisory task force, however Vice Mayor
Martinez once refer to it, I'm happy with that, yes.
Mayor Burk: So we have, who would be somebody from the Police Department, somebody from staff,
the Council will appoint seven people familiar with legal or police procedures.
Council Member Nacy: I have a question on that. Point of clarification, I guess. Would that be people
that reside in the Town?
Mayor Burk: That would be the next question, have to reside in the Town. Do we have four people that
see this task force, this commission, whatever, as a staff person, a police member, seven residents that
are familiar with legal or police procedures as members? Anybody else? Okay, so it's the four
gentlemen.
Vice Mayor Martinez: The police officer [Unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: Is there anything else that we need to follow through on tonight?
Kaj Dentler: Madam Mayor, the only thing I would ask as you frame this out is that you be specific that
this group, this task force, and even the ultimate creation of a body if there is such one --
Mayor Burk: We can barely hear you.
Vice Mayor Martinez: [Unintelligible].
Kaj Dentler: What I ask is as you consider creating this task force and even the ultimate result of this
what it may be, whether it be a body or advisory commission or whatever, that be a specific scope that
does not allow the committee to have HR responsibilities personnel.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Agreed.
Kaj Dentler: The Council -Manager form of government that we have it's the Town Manager and the
Chief to handle these types of things. I think you should be very specific that they should not be getting
involved in any personnel HR matters.
Vice Mayor Martinez: That's my concern and I agree with you.
Kaj Dentler: I think that's important.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would put that on the specifications. All right, so it's the
gentlemen again. Is that sufficient information?
Kaj Dentler: Yes, I think we can create a resolution that comes back to you in two weeks, but don't
want to do it tomorrow. I think we need some time to process this, come back in two weeks, and then
you can deal with that at that point and vote on it if you're ready to go.
Vice Mayor Martinez: That's fine.
Kaj Dentler: Okay.
Mayor Burk: All right. The next thing that we have for discussion tonight is the Classification of Health
Insurance Benefits for the Town Council.
Josh Didawick: Good evening Mayor, Members of Council. This discussion was requested at the June
7th Work Session and I'm just going to give a brief overview but what we're really talking about are
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Council members' health insurance rates when we talk about classification. Council members are
eligible for the same health insurance coverage as other employees. We currently have three rates,
one for regular full-time employees, one for regular part-time employees, and one that elected officials
pay. The coverage, policies, everything that govern the plan are the same regardless of status.
In terms of the costs and fiscal impact, and things like that the premiums that everyone pays are built
into the annual budget. As Council, you can change the rates, you can change the elected officials'
rates at any point, you could have them match the regular full-time, regular part-time rates, you could
create another rate altogether, should you choose.
The overall fiscal impact would depend on the amount of that change and when it goes into effect. The
rate change can go into effect anytime you decide for it to. However, changing the rates for Council
does not create a qualifying mid -year event scenario. So somebody whose currently not on the plan
and the rates change, they can't get on the plan just because the rates change. That really is my brief
overview.
Mayor Burk: Thank you.
Josh Didawick: I'm happy to answer any questions.
Mayor Burk: All right. Thank you. Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes, thank you. Why are there three categories? We're so-called part-time
employees, but we pay more as an elected official than a part-time employee would for health
insurance.
Josh Didawick: Good question. I don't know the full history of that. I think at one point, Council paid
the same rates as regular part-time employees and at some point, as you can see, regular part-time
employees' rates went down.
Council Member Fox: Yes. I guess this would be the time for me to say it but if we're going to consider
any sort of change, I think it would be just to go ahead and come in line with part-time employees' rates.
I'm not sure going to full-time with, I don't know, budget -wise, I don't see that as a positive thing right
now but I would definitely support pulling in line with other part-time rate employee paying payers.
Thanks.
Christopher Spera: Madam Mayor, if I might just interject briefly, the only justification that I can think
of for the distinction that the insurance company has done in setting these rates is that there may be
employee wellness type initiatives that an employee a regular, whether they be full time or part-time,
might be able to participate in that an elected official might not, and so that might have been a
justification for saying, well, if the employees an employee, there's some things that the employer does
from a wellness perspective that would justify a different premium than an elected official who isn't
required to participate in those types of wellness programs. I don't think the insurance company is
getting over on us. I think that that might be their justification for doing it that way.
Council Member Fox: So it's the insurance companies who set the three-tier rates then?
Josh Didawick: That's where I was going to interject. I mean that could be the case or it could have
been the case at some point. The Town used to be self -insured. The Town sets its rates, yes we set
our own rates. We do have-- we participate. The plan administrator is the Local Choice, which is
administered by a state agency but we set our rates, we set our categories for coverage and if you think
about it, having full-time, regular, part-time, that's really a recruitment and retention tool for us.
Kaj Dentler: I think that the short answer to your question is we don't know how that was done because
neither Josh nor I knew that those rates existed, the Council category, until we got this exercise.
Council Member Fox: Okay, so then my comment pulls. I suggest we pull the rates for elected and
part-time employees to the same.
Page 28J July 12, 2021
Vice Mayor Martinez: Actually, I was there and there were some members on Council that wanted to
get health insurance, but we didn't know how to give it to them so they created this category that allowed
them to get health insurance, and it's never changed.
Mayor Burk: Interesting [unintelligible]. Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Just quick comment. First, I hear every day from my wife that this is a
part-time job. I don't think it is but I just think one of the things, when Vice Mayor Martinez brought this
up, one of the things that I really keep coming back to is a lot of us are very privileged to be able to
serve on the Council. Unfortunately, there are other folks who maybe aren't as privileged and would like
to serve, and would be good to have their voices heard. Any kind of extra benefit that would allow a
unique, diverse group of people to decide they can run and run for this position, I think would only
benefit the Town.
Mayor Burk: Anyone else at this point?
Vice Mayor Martinez: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Martinez, I'm sorry.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Kaj, impact on budget. At this point, there's only two people who would be eligible
if we did the change today. How big an impact would it be?
Kaj Dentler: Josh has the numbers, but it's not much. Nothing I would concern myself with for the
budget.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Okay, and then if we do this and it becomes in place for next year, how big of
an impact on budget if all 7 decided they were going to do it? I already know there's three of us, people
on there that are on other health plans that don't need it, but.
Josh Didawick: It probably would depend on the enrollment and the tiers, but maybe $10K to $20K
difference.
Vice Mayor Martinez: Okay. I just wanted to make that clear because I agree with Zach, we talked
about this and it's just another added incentive for people who worry about running for Council and what
are they going to lose when they do, and here, in this case, they're not going to lose anything. I think
it's a win. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: All right. Well, my concerns don't center around the cost. We know that it's not going to
be an extremely expensive endeavor. I don't see us as full-time employees. I don't think anybody is a
full-time employee that works on this. Most of us have other jobs. I have a problem with being
categorized as a full-time employee when you have people that are full-time employees. I have an issue
with that. I understand that the incentive aspect of it, but I don't think anybody loses anything by coming
here, they may gain something. That I think is what you're trying to say, that they would gain something
if they didn't have insurance, and then they were able to come serve on Council and get that insurance.
That would most certainly be an incentive for many, for some people.
I have problems with the process and I always used to hate that word, but we have citizens that would
love to be able to have insurance and they can't afford it and they don't have jobs, or they don't have
the ability to get that insurance. Here, we're doing it out of the budget process. We haven't sent it during
the budget process where people could come and speak to us and have a public hearing on it as part
of that process. I'm uncomfortable doing it this way.
That doesn't mean that that is if we talk about it at the budget process time, and I would even suggest
that we tell Mr. Dentler to put it in the budget for this upcoming budget. Then we have gone through the
process in a way that allows people to be aware of it, that we're not doing it after we've already planned
our budgets so now we're bringing this up again. I think that we could just do it better if we waited to do
it at the budget time.
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There's also the fact that you've got two people that are receiving benefits and good for them, but then
you have other people that aren't. Is that a raise? Are those people that are getting the benefits, and
this always used to come up with the teachers, we would always argue back and forth in regard to all
of this. It's nothing new, but that's also a consideration in regard to it, but I do think that it would be
better addressed at the budget. That being said, anybody else have anything at this point, Mr.
Steinberg?
Council Member Steinberg: Thanks. I concur with Mayor Burk that, in the end, there's a greater
discussion that absolutely belongs in the budget discussions and also the issue of a level playing field.
I think everybody on this Council works hard.
Mayor Burk: Definitely.
Council Member Steinberg: The insurance of course is a benefit, which a number of us, myself
included do not take advantage of, either don't want to or can't, depending on the kind of insurance you
have. I think this discussion absolutely has come to the budget cycle and we need to decide. I know
sometimes it's politically unpopular, sometimes the residents will see us as trying to enrich ourselves,
but as Councilman Cummings said, the work involved here is quite a workload and I don't think that's
the case.
When the time comes, if we want to consider an equal benefit for all members of Council who serve,
whether they use it for insurance or not, I think that's a discussion that we absolutely need to have in
the interest of fairness to all Council members. We're just a couple of months out. If in its wisdom, the
Council for the members who were involved now see it as a fair thing to do to go ahead and change the
current formula, I can deal with that, but I think, again, we need to address the greater issue. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: That being the case then, are there four people that want to change the classification of
the health insurance benefits for the Town Council members at this point? Are there four votes for that?
Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Steinberg: Can we include in that language that this would be an issue that we
absolutely --
Mayor Burk: That can be next. Yes. Mr. Cummings and Mr. Martinez, and then Mr. Steinberg would
like to add another aspect that we bring this up during the budget process, that this be part of our budget
deliberations.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Everybody is in favor of that one. Thank you very much.
Josh Didawick: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Are there any future agenda items? Ms. Fox?
Council Member Fox: Yes, I'd like to ask that Council consider re -appropriating what we would spend
on maintenance for this fiscal year and grant that amount to the Loudoun Freedom Center. I asked
about that amount and it's about $3,300. That would help them with some of the issues that they're
having. We wouldn't be reaching into our budget to find more money to do this, and from what I
understand, that's basically what they asked for in the first place.
Mayor Burk: Are you asking for a work session or are you asking for indication tonight that you'd like
to do it tomorrow?
Council Member Fox: I'd like to do it before the MOU is signed, I suppose.
Kaj Dentler: Can I just inject --
Mayor Burk: Speak loudly?
Page 301 July 12, 2021
Council Member Fox: Yes, I can't hear you.
Kaj Dentler: I'm sorry. That $3,300 number that you referenced, that's basically in-house costs. All the
maintenance is done by our staff, we're not contracting the work out.
Council Member Fox: Okay, but it's what can't be re -appropriated then?
Kaj Dentler: Well, you don't want to give staff away -
Council Member Fox: No.
Kaj Dentler: - or equipment. It's all their in-house costs. It's just like they're cutting grass at Ida Lee or
somewhere else on the highway.
Council Member Fox: So would we save those in-house costs?
Kaj Dentler: You give them less work they have to do so they can do the other work that they have
been doing for you.
Council Member Fox: Got you. That would be--
Kaj Dentler: If you may want to take a different approach and just say, I don't know, if you're going to
contract it out, it's going to be more expensive. If you wanted to pick a number, we could evaluate a
number for you, which you may say $5K or something like that, that you give them as annual
maintenance. That might be a path you want to take, but you might want us to evaluate what it would
cost for a contractor to provide the same level of service that we're providing in-house.
Mayor Burk: Are you talking about an annual payment?
Council Member Fox: No. One time. One-time payment.
Kaj Dentler: A one-time payment. Whatever number you would pick, I can do, you can tell me what
you want me to research. I can come up with a number for you based on that direction.
Council Member Fox: We don't have to decide tonight. I just wanted to make sure it gets done before
the MOU is considered.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cummings, is that, oh, I'm sorry. Was that it?
Council Member Fox: Yes, we have to --
Mayor Burk: Are there four people interested in, well, I'm not really quite sure. What would you say?
Council Member Fox: I like that number and I'd like to know if four Council members are interested in
taking what we would have spent and giving it to the Loudoun Freedom Center. I don't care if it's a
contracted amount or would have been in-house, but it seems like that amount would be appropriate.
Mayor Burk: What is that amount?
Council Member Fox: $3,300.
Kaj Dentler: That's the amount of staff in-house costs. Their hours or hourly rate, the time, the mowing -
Mayor Burk: So you don't have to pull it from somewhere else because you can't, it's not money left
over. It's money that is their salary basically for the time they spent here.
Kaj Dentler: Correct. It would give you a baseline of how to come up with a cost.
Page 311 July 12, 2021
Council Member Fox: Okay [unintelligible].
Kaj Dentler: If the goal is to provide funds to the Loudoun Freedom Center so they can maintain it,
based on what we perceive as the annual cost, then the best thing to do is to get some contractor costs
estimates of what they would charge us to do the work same as we are doing it. If I hire landscaping
company A --
Council Member Fox: I don't want to help them maintain it, I wanted to give them some grant to help
them make some improvements that they were looking for. I don't see this as a yearly thing.
Kaj Dentler: Then I would just pick a number that you want to donate to them as a contribution because
there's no formula that you can come up with. I don't even know what they would do. It'd be better just
to pick a number that you're comfortable with.
Mayor Burk: You want to donate $3,300 to the Freedom Center?
Council Member Fox: Yes. I just see it as an offset.
Council Member Steinberg: I have a question.
Mayor Burk: Yes.
Council Member Steinberg: Once MOU is-- the Town is currently doing maintenance around the
cemetery. With the signing of the MOU, what will the Town commitments be to that maintenance?
Kaj Dentler: We only take care of things outside. We don't go inside the cemetery.
Council Member Steinberg: I understand that. What I'm asking is, that level of maintenance and that's
the money we're talking about at this point, right, that will continue around the perimeter of the
cemetery?
Kaj Dentler: We'll do, right, we'll stay outside the cemetery.
Council Member Steinberg: As I recall the discussions, the budget for that was roughly $3,500 a year,
that's basically what we're talking about.
Kaj Dentler: Right.
Council Member Steinberg: We will continue to do that?
Kaj Dentler: Correct.
Council Member Steinberg: Even with the signing--
Kaj Dentler: We still have to mow the larger field and around that -
Council Member Steinberg: Understood.
Kaj Dentler: - but we're not going inside.
Council Member Steinberg: Even with the signing of the MOU, we will continue to do that.
Kaj Dentler: Right.
Council Member Steinberg: Okay. Thank you.
Council Member Fox: That's not something I understood.
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Mayor Burk: Do you want to withdraw or you still want it?
Council Member Fox: I still want it.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Any other questions Mr. Cummings? Do you have any questions?
Council Member Cummings: No, I'm sorry. It's unrelated.
Mayor Burk: My concern with this, Suzanne is, now we're donating to a cemetery, and we have a
request from St. James Cemetery. Are we willing to give them some money also?
Council Member Fox: The only difference between the two is I want to acknowledge that we have
some, we've had some ownership in this. I just feel that with that ownership, we have, I don't feel like
we have an overwhelming responsibility because we didn't do much in the first place, but I feel like
that's the distinction.
Mayor Burk: All right. Mr. Cummings, do you have-- your light is on? I'm just trying to figure out if you
having a question.
Council Member Cummings: No, no.
Mayor Burk: Anyone else at this point? Then are there for people that would be willing to donate $3,300
to the Freedom Center? That's it. That did not pass. Was that it? Mr. Cummings do you have
something?
Council Member Cummings: I do. Thank you. Just to follow up on Council Woman Fox's comments
on the Sycolin Cemetery and in the MOU. We're approaching the deadline that we've asked for a
response from the Loudoun Freedom Center. I really think it's imperative that we get the cemetery into
the hands of these historic preservationists that can shine a light onto the community that's been
overlooked. We've owned this land. To talk quickly about what the Mayor just brought up about other
cemeteries, we don't own those cemeteries. We own this land and this is our cemetery.
The maintenance, although above and beyond what certain people might think we should have been
doing, it was not efficient and effective enough to preserve a historic cemetery. We spend a lot of
conversation and a lot of money on historic structures in the Historic Downtown, yet when it comes to
the Sycolin Cemetery, we very quickly rush and push and move forward without looking at any type of
help to get this land transferred over to them and to preserve this historic cemetery of folks who don't
have their history preserved throughout Virginia and the country.
What I'm asking tonight is if we would reconsider before the end of July, so at our next meeting, creating
a grant up to $100K to be spent by the Loudoun Freedom Center to do some work to get the cemetery
ready, to begin to teach history, and to allow the family members, and there are family members out
there of folks buried at that cemetery, to work. The way the grant would work is we wouldn't just be
handing money over. We would be asking for them for the work that they have done to submit an invoice
to the Town and the Town would pay, again, up into an amount of $100K especially to be used for the
drainage issue. That's what I'm asking.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that are interested in donating, creating a grant program for the
Loudoun Freedom Center for $100K? Yes, sir?
Council Member Bagdasarian: I've got a comment/question. I still maintain the work that needs to be
done at the site clearly has to do with the drainage. Last, or two meetings ago, we proposed having a
meeting with the Freedom Center and our engineers to determine what needs to be done and can the
Town do the work. Since that didn't pass and this is an opportunity to allow the Freedom Center to
determine which contractors they decide they want to use and to get the work done. It is something that
we own. This is still a property that the Town owns. I think that this is something that we need to address
for clarification this is we're reimbursing the construction costs for the actual work. It's not just a financial
grant?
Page 331 July 12, 2021
Council Member Cummings: Correct.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Okay.
Mayor Burk: All right. All in favor? I mean not. We're not voting. I'm sorry. Are therefore people that
would like to do this? All right. That does not pass. Okay. Anyone else at this point? I do have one thing.
We in the past have held a meeting between all the boards and commissions where the chair would
then talk about what that board or commission was doing and the boards could interact. It was a very
popular evening event. We haven't had it in the last year or two. I would like to ask that we reinstate
that evening where we bring all the boards and commissions together, for them to share with each other
and with us all the different things that they've been doing. Would there be a problem reinstating that
again?
Kaj Dentler: We're already planning that.
Mayor Burk: Okay. Never mind.
Kaj Dentler: We've been trying to find an evening day and even a breakfast time. We're working with
the Chairs to find out when they would be available to attend. We're working on that as we speak.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Where does this event take place? Is it Ida Lee or something?
Mayor Burk: It's been at Ida Lee.
Kaj Dentler: It is in Ida Lee.
Council Member Nacy: Something popped in my head when you said boards and commissions. Are
there four people that would want this? I know that there was some back and forth about the Legacy,
the Town Plan, where it's at, and the Planning Commission was asking to delay it a bit. If that happens,
I don't know if we need to vote on that tomorrow night or what the deal is there, but if that happens,
could we ask for the work they've done up until this point for us to begin to review it up until the point
where they are currently?
Mayor Burk: I understand what you're trying to do but we would end up reviewing things that they might
change. Then we would be doing double and I know what you're saying. I asked a similar thing. Could
you send us things that you weren't going to change? They told me they didn't know what they weren't
going to change.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes, because it would be ideal to start our review process even at the
first sections or whatever the Planning Commission has done because the first sections are all about
the vision and values and guiding principles. If we could get that process started while the rest of the
plan is being reviewed and updated, I think that'd be an efficient process.
Mayor Burk: Well, we could ask them to do that I suppose. I don't see any reason why we couldn't ask
them for that. You want to ask for the first-- do what chapters you're asking for?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Whatever section is completed by the end of August? That original?
Council Member Nacy: I think it's like not even an actual chapter. I think it's like the foreword, almost.
Mayor Burk: Okay.
Council Member Nacy: I have to look at it.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Whatever is completed by the end of August so then we can start our
process.
Mayor Burk: Can we do that?
Page 341 July 12, 2021
Christopher Spera: Yes, you can.
Mayor Burk: You're looking confused Eileen.
Eileen Boeing: [unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: I know. I'm just asking for clarification. Are there for people that would like to start
reviewing it before it's-- I don't even know how to say it, before it's completed or whatever's--
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes, whatever at the end of August.
Mayor Burk: Whatever's completed by the end of August. Would we have four people that would like
to review it? All right.
Council Member Steinberg: [unintelligible].
Council Member Nacy: We don't have to [unintelligible].
Mayor Burk: Let me make sure. Mr. Martinez, are you a yes or a no?
Vice Mayor Martinez: I did not hear the conversation, so I abstain.
Mayor Burk: [Unintelligible] abstention.
Council Member Nacy: I don't mean for us to do it in a way that we then take our comments and
bombard them with a whole new set of stuff, but just so that we're that much more prepared -
Mayor Burk: When they're done.
Council Member Nacy: - when they're finished so that it's not a shock and surprise at what they've
been doing.
Mayor Burk: Right. That's good.
Kaj Dentler: May I ask would that then be a work session discussion of Council in September or you
just want to get the information to start reading it? The latter?
Council Member Nacy: Yes. Sort of where my head is. I don't think we need to talk about it yet but I
would like to at least see what they've been doing.
Kaj Dentler: Okay. No problem. I just want to make sure I knew what you wanted me to do, so. Got it.
Mayor Burk: All right. Is anybody else? Is there a motion to adjourn?
Council Member Steinberg: So moved.
Mayor Burk: Second?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Second.
Mayor Burk: All in favor?
Council Members: Aye.
Mayor Burk: Opposed? All right.
Page 351 July 12, 2021