HomeMy Public PortalAbout1999-10-17 AttorneyClient Session Bal Harbour Club Inc and Ava Developments - CASE 98-026BAL HARBOUR VILLAGE
ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION
October 17, 1999
655 -96th Street
Bal Harbour, Florida
12:10 o'clock p.m.
PERSONAL TO UCH REPORTING, INC. ( 305) 944-9884
MAYOR ANDREW R. HIRSCHL
ASSISTANT MAYOR DANIELS. TANTLEFF
COUNCILMAN JAMES E. BOGGESS
COUNCILMAN PEG E. GORSON
COUNCILMAN SEYMOUR "SY" ROTH
ALFRED J. TREPPEDA, VILLAGE MANAGER
STEPHEN JAY HELFMAN, ESQ .
Weiss, Serota & Helfman, P.A.
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THEREUPON, T HE FOLLOWING PROCEE DI NGS WERE HAD:
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Let's call this
meeting to order, if we may.
This is an open meeting and a roll
call of the members present.
MS. HORTON: Mayor Hirschl?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Here.
MS. HORTON: Assistant Mayor
Tantleff?
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: Here.
MS. HORTON: Councilman Boggess?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Here.
MS. HORTON: Councilman Gerson?
COUNCILMAN GORSON: Here .
MS. HORTON: Councilman Roth?
COUNCILMAN ROTH: Here.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Okay. The open
meeting has now concluded. The tim e is
now 12:13 p.m.
We are now go ing to have an
attorney-client session in accordance with
Section 286.01 18 , Flori da Statutes. The
session is estimated to last one hour.
The following people will be in
at te ndance at the meeting.
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Myself Mayor Hirschl, Village Council
members, Assistant Mayor Treppeda (sic),
Councilman Boggess
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: You said
Assistant Mayor Treppeda.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Excuse me. Assistant
Mayor Tantleff, Councilman Boggess,
Councilman Gerson and Councilman Roth.
Also the City Attorney present will
be Steve Helfman, and Village Manager,
Alfred Treppeda.
These proceedings wi ll be recorded by
a certificate court reporter. At the
conclusion of all lit i gation discussed,
the transcripts will be made part of the
public record.
All individuals who I have not named
shall leave the room at this time.
(Thereupon, the Ms. Horton left t he
room. )
MR. HE L FMAN: Okay. We're here.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Steve, we're here.
MR. HELFMAN: A couple of you had
expressed an interest when this lawsu i t
was se r ved on us l ast week to have an
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executive session which is ca lled by our
offices.
So we have asked you to meet today
for the purpose of describing to you,
answering questions, if we can, the
lawsuit, the impacts of the lawsuit, what
it's about, the potential in particular
for settlement, see if there's a way to
resolve th is without necessarily going
th rough a full-blown legal proceeding, the
cost of litigation, in particular what i t
might cost to go through this process.
While we don't hav e a good hand l e on
i t yet, I can give you a sense of what I
th i nk will be entailed and general l y to
explore the suit and get a good
understand i ng of i t .
This is not to be a meeting about the
zoning app l ication, which is going to be
heard tomorrow. That is while a related
matter, that proceeding --all the
judicial proceedings are concluded. It's
not the proper subject of a private
attorney -c lient meeting.
ASSISTANT MAYOR T ANTLEFF: But you --
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MR. HELFMAN: So those proceedings
are separate and distinct from this
although there is some relationship and we
can certainly touch on that relationship,
but that hearing will go forward
independent of any discussions here
ASS ISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Let me ask
you
MR. HELFMAN: --even tho ugh they are
related.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Why would
you come up with that --what I find to be
a ludicrous statement, to just proceed
with the zoning hearing when this is
clearly a lawsuit that says that if the
Master Plan was executed improperly and
the trial Court based their decision on
voting against the Council because we have
to go with the Master Plan, if there's a
potentiality that the Master Plan can be
i nvalid, the n how in the world can we
proceed with a zoning hearing that
could --
MAYOR HIRSCHL : I think that's
tomorrow's discussion, is what he's
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saying.
MR. HELFMAN: That is tomorrow's
discussion.
What I'm telling you is that may be
the proper discussion tomorrow
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: I go t you .
MR. HEL F MAN: --at the h ea ring or
before tomorrow if you would like to
discuss it with me and I'm certainly happy
to do that and we should, but it's not the
topic of th i s lawsuit.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: I got you.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay? And that's what
we're talking about here.
I understand that they're related. I
understand that this lawsuit may very well
have some impact on the zoning of that
property . There's a direct linkage there
and we'll talk about how you should
proceed tomorrow and what you should do --
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Thank you.
MR. HELFMAN: --but not i n th i s
meeting.
This meeting is focused on this
lawsuit, the merits of it, the potential
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for settling it , and the potential cost
involved in it.
So let 's do this . Let me try to
explain bri e fly --although you're all
very smart. You looked at it . Let's not
assume that you understand what's in there
and let's talk about what's there and what
the allegations are .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Describe it to us,
please.
MR. HELFMAN : Okay. And I may be
repeating it, but let's just go through
it.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: We'll let you know.
MR . HEL F MAN: I know you will .
There is --in 1985, th e --let's go
back further . There is a plan that was in
place for this community which I believe
was first developed in 1975, a State
required Master Plan 1975 plus o r
minus. I may be off by a year.
The state mandated that al l
governm ent s adopt comprehensive p l ans.
They saw growth coming. They saw urban
sprawl coming . They saw Florida blooming,
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and they said you need to adopt
comprehensive plans to control your
growth. This is '75.
I believe that our Village did that .
I wasn't here then, but I'm pretty sure
that we adopted one and we had a
comprehensive plan in place.
What the State found was that none of
the governments were following their
comprehensive plans. They would take
them, they would put them up on a wall
(indicating) like this over here and that
was it. They 'd never look at it.
In 1985, the Legislature said,
listen. We meant it when we said adopt
p l ans and we want you to follow them, not
just adopt · them.
So in 1985, they adopted what they
called the Growth Management Act. I t was
a comp le te revision to the '75 law and
they said now, you've got to adopt new
plans and in these new plans, which were
rea l ly jus t amendments of the ones we told
you to do 10 years ago, you have to put
enforceable provisions in there.
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You have to have concurrency. You
have to have all of these things that
would force the local government not just
to plan, but to implement.
Following the 1985 law, we did that.
We adopted a plan .
MAYOR HIRSCHL : '75 law .
MR. HELFMAN: '75 first and then
'85
MR . HELFMAN: I 'm sorry .
MR. HELFMAN: we did a new revised
plan that had all the teeth in it. Okay?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Thank you .
MR. HELFMAN: And at t h at time for
the f i rst time --and it really took us
several years from the date the
legis l ation passed un til we got our plan
in place which was '88, '89, we adopted a
more detailed plan than we had in '75.
Acco rding to the l awsuit , for the
first time we addressed par ticular
properties in the Village as to how they
should be developed and utilized.
One of those in particular that ha d
focus within our plan was the Bal Harbour
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Beach C l ub property --the Bal Harbour
Club p r oper t y which was the Beach C l ub
component .
I 'm not sure what the plan says about
t he baysid e prope r ty that the club owns,
bu t c l e arly
Okay. Jim is i ndicating nothing, but
clearly t h e b each prope rt y was the
t opic --a topic --in the plan .
I think it did two things, even
though the l awsu i t doesn't descr i be thi s .
I think what t h e plan did was map th e
property like every othe r p r operty in th e
Village with a land use, and I th i nk i t
mapped i t consistent wit h th~ entire
oceanfront a re a . I t hink what it did was
take for the first time --and t a k e t h at
Beach Club proper t y and pu t the same
mapping de s ignat i on on it that all the
others had which was OF, I think,
o c eanfront . Okay?
I n addition to tha t , t here was a
t extural p rovis i on in t he plan tha t was
in s erted that sa i d s ometh i ng to the effect
t ha t we antic i pa t e that the Beach Club
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property will or could be developed in the
future as mu l ti-famil y resi dential
high-rise or hotel, which is the same uses
that all of the other properties along the
beach front had .
It basically acknowledged in the plan
that this site would go in the future to a
multi -fami ly /hotel use like everyth i ng
else along the oceanfront.
That happens in '88, early . '89.
1 99 --I'm going to guess now --7 --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Just to correct
you
MR. HE LFMAN: Yes.
In
MAYOR HIRSCHL: because I received
a copy of the transcripts, it happened in
I 8 7 f
'88.
and it was ratified in January of
MR. HELFMAN: In te resting. So I
don't know where the '89 da t e came from.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I have no idea.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I think 1 87 and
I 88 •
MAYOR HIRSCHL: The transcr i pts
reflect '87 and '88.
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MR. HELFMAN: Okay. Most of the --
the first towns that did comp plans were
along the oceanfront.
I don't know why they picked i t that
way, but the State developed a schedule of
468 l oca l units of local Government
when they did their plans.
We happened to be one of the very,
very first because they got everybody
along the east coast and on the oceanfront
to do plans first.
I don't know the l ogic of it. That's
just the way they laid it out. That's
just some hi story
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: That's whe r e the
most rapi d growth was taking p l ace.
MR. HEL F MAN: Maybe they wanted
people to get their plans in place sooner.
So we move then --we adopt the plan.
We move to '97, I t hink. I don't know the
date that these guys filed their zoning
applicatio n in the first in stance, but
maybe it's '98 now and the club comes i n
with Ava Development, who is their
contract purchaser.
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Ava has a right to acquire the club
land and/or --it's confusing --the club
certificates.
They negotiate a fairly comprehensive
deal to buy up the club, and they get
consent from the club to come in and
rezone the club's property, but they join
both i n the application as the owner and
the contract purchaser.
They come and they ask for rezoning.
We know they put on their whole spiel. We
deny it. Okay?
We go through the Court proceedings.
We go to the Appellate Division . They
said we acted improper l y and that's the
reason we are coming back tomorrow to have
a hearing to consider the rezoning of
their property.
There were two people who intervened
in those judicial proceedings and
participated in those judicial proceedings
over the past year and a half.
Is it Howard Berlin? Is that his
name?
MR . HELFMAN : Yes.
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MR. HELFMAN: Okay, Howard Berlin and
Doug Rudolph. They are two owners o f
properties who were not sued when --if
you call it sued --who were not named in
the appeal with the Village when the
Village decided to deny the zoning.
They jumped into the proceedings as
individua l s whose in terest was affected
and they participated in the appeal
arguing essentially what the Village was
arguing all along in saying that the
Village properly denied the zoning. They,
like the Village, lost that proceeding.
They were side by si de with us during the
proceeding.
Doug Rudolph now has pursued another
avenue, I think I think that's the
purpose of this to try to upset the
zoning on that property. Okay?
Recognizing that he and we lost the
appeal, he now is pursuing another avenue
to try to keep that property from being
developed as multi-family oceanfront, and
that's this lawsuit. Okay?
What he's saying is that the original
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comprehensive plan, 1987 and 1 88 , was
improperly adopted, at least that port ion
of it that related to this property.
Okay? He's saying that --and because of
that, that portion of the plan should be
void.
Now, what follows from that is well,
if t he plan was void, then the zoning that
has followed whether by Court order or
otherwise --is void because you can't
have oceanfront multi-family zoning if the
comprehensive plan doesn't so designate.
And I think that's a good theory. I think
he's right. I mean , fu ndamentally, zoning
has to follow fr o m the plan. If the plan
is in val id , then any zoning activity that
followed from it is void.
Now, understand that this is very
co mplicated. He's filing this lawsuit 12
years after the plan was adopted. T here
are all sorts of things that have happened
in the interim, including Court decis i ons.
So the direct link between whether
the plan was void or not and where we are
with zo ning is not --it's not so clear.
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There's this fundamental concept which is
absolutely true, that zoning must fo llo w
from the plan and I t hink that what he's
doing is, if he can kill the plan, he
figures that from there, the zoning is
going to fall apart and he's probably
right.
He's probably right that if the plan
is invalid, then the zoning that follows
therefrom should f ail, if it doesn't
automatically fail. Okay?
So that's his goal, as best I can
tell which is the way he's go i ng to get to
the zoning now is not through the zoning
process, but to have the plan declared
in valid.
The reason that he says that it's
invalid is because the vote on the plan
was tainted by at least two, maybe three
Council people, including Jim --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Four.
MR. HEL F MAN: Does he say four?
Potent ial ly four Council people who he
claims had a conf l ict of inte rest, who he
claims voted on this knowing that they
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were going to have special ga in or benefit
as a result of that 1 987, '88 vote. Okay?
They knew at the time that they had some
special interest different than everybody
else and that they wer e approving
something that was enuring to their own
personal gain or benefit.
And his theory is if that's true,
then the whole process was ta int ed and it
was, in effect, a denial of due process to
the public. The public did not get a fair
hearing and the people who live in this
Village didn't get a fair hearing on this
thing because whi l e it appeared that
everything was fine, sort of behind the
scenes, the decisions were prejudiced and
the decisions were tainted.
Now , some of you may say well,
listen. There's only one or two people
and the vote was unanimous, and so there
were still three others who voted for t he
plan.
The concept in conflicts of interest
and the reason tha t the conflict law says
if you have one, you're supposed to not
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only not vote, but you're supposed to
leave the room, okay? You're supposed to
leave the room because while you may not
vote, you may influence the process .
If you're ther e, you're speaking
against it. You think i t's g rea t. Other
people follow you. You're a leader .
You're the Mayor maybe. They know that
you have been involved. The whole
process, Courts say, can get tainted by
just the presence of somebody there.
So they're saying wi th peop l e, even
if the vote cou l d have gone three to two
or something, once i t's poisoned, it's
poisoned.
You can't just look and judge what
the other people wou l d have voted. Maybe
the discussion would have been a different
kind of discussion. Maybe it would have
been a negat i ve discussion. Maybe some
Council peop l e were intimidated by t he
Mayor and didn't want to speak up.
I don't think that's the case in this
town, but --they talk up whenever they
wan t to, but it's possible.
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So they're saying that the whole
process was tainted and should be set
aside.
We need to answer this lawsuit and we
need to respond to this lawsuit. We need
to deal with this lawsuit. We have 20
days in which to file a responsive
pleading. You have to give some response.
Maybe i t's a motion to dismiss the
lawsuit because we think it's got some
fundamental flaws in it.
Maybe it is just to answer the
lawsuit and raise whatever defenses we
think we're going to raise along the way
which is when I say answer, you admit the
things that you know are true, you deny
the things that you know are false, and
those things that you don't know the
answer to and you want to look into, you
say, we don't know.
That's what an answer to a lawsuit
is. It's not answering it yes or no
excep t to those things that you absolutely
know.
That will continue the process moving
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forward and ultimately unless there's a
settlement, it would bring this matter
before a Court to determine whether or
not, in fact, there was an improper vote.
Okay?
What I wanted to do today was just
tell you about this lawsuit, t alk about
it, entertain questions, not necessari l y
make any final decisions about how we want
to proceed.
I think we need to look into some of
these allegations. I think I would like
to talk with Doug Rudolph and his lawyer
and say, what are you trying to do here?
Are you just trying to delay something?
Because lawsuits are often filed sort of
for delay purposes. They're not supposed
to be --
(Thereupon, there was an interruption
in the meeting, after which the follow i ng
proceedings were had:)
MR. HELFMAN: Maybe Doug is doing
this because he wants leverage over the
club. He's been negotiating with the
people at the club .
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Maybe he's doing this because he
doesn 't really want to accomplish the
upset of our plan, but wants strategically
to deal with Ava and the club. I don't
know because I haven't really talked to
him about it.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Well, you
know, through a ll that, you never said
that maybe he's doing it just because he's
right.
Everything you just said is
MR. HELFMAN: I'm not done.
I'm saying, you know, maybe he's
doing it because he just want to overturn
the plan and that's it and he just --
whatever the consequence is, that's what
he wants to do.
I don't know what he wants to do and
I won't know until I talk to him. And I
may still not know about what his goals
are and he may not tell me.
The reason I raised these issues is
because if you all want me to begin to
have some discussions with them about
potentially coming to some resolution of
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this thing that works out well, I'm happy
to do that.
That's part of this meeting. The
statutory purpose of this meeting to a
great extent is for the purpose of talking
about potential settlement and approaching
the other side and discussing it with
them.
So that's where we are. Th i s is ve r y
serious. I mean, this is not a joke.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: It's
criminal.
MR. HELFMAN: I don't think --I
don't know t hat it's criminal, but it
certainly addresses improper activity .
Okay?
This is not someth i ng to be dealt
w ith lightly. This is not something that
should --you know, that is a maneuve r and
if he's using it that way, I think he's
doing it improperly because this involves
people's reputations, their credibility.
I mean, this is serious.
I mean, at some point, the press is
going to know about this lawsuit. This is
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not going to be a secret. You know, I
don't think they know yet or we would have
gotten some calls. But at so me point in
the next probably two, three days after
tomorrow, I suspect, this lawsuit is not
going to be a big secret. I suspect it's
going to be
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: I did get
a call.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: I gave i t
to Al . The reporter called me.
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: Right.
MR. HE LFMA N: You should have him
cal l me.
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: It was
only what was the special Council meeting
about. I said it was about having an
executive session. That's all we said.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay. So it 's a very
sensitive issue. This i s going to be the
subject of newspaper articles.
There is no question that this is
going to be a big deal. Conflict of
in terest i s a hot issue. Th i s club site
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is a very hot issue. I mean, you all need
to understand that this thing puts you
right in th e middle o f this. It is going
to be as hot or hotter than it's ever
been. Okay? And everybody is going to be
watching you very carefully with the way
you deal with this lawsuit.
So I just --it needs to be dealt
with thoughtfully. We need to have
whatever executive sessions. We need to
confidentially discuss the suit and make
sure that we treat it properly, but it's
not something to be taken lightly and say
oh, we just do this or we just do that
or --you know, it has huge, huge
ramifications both from a PR standpoint
and a legal standpoint.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: We have two options,
the way I see your description here.
One is to fight it. The other is to
admit it. Is that basically the way you
go on this?
I mean, we 're being sued. Either we
fight the lawsuit or we acquiesce.
MR. HELFMAN: You --
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MAYOR HIRSCHL: Or is it not that
simple?
MR. HELFMAN: It's not that simple.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I mean, I'm not a
lawyer. Sorry .
MR. HELFMAN: No, no. Those are
options or some place in between and you
may resol ve --
MAYOR HIRSCHL : Or negoti ate a
settlement.
MR. HELFMAN: I mean, those are
always the spectrum.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Now, do you negotiate
a settlemen t? I don't understand how you
negotiate a settlement.
MR. HELFMAN:
either.
I don't necessarily,
Now, le t me tell you that one other
part of this that's important before we
get into discussion about it.
This lawsuit involv~s the club and
its p roperty and its members and former
members, okay?
Within short order, there's going to
be a motion by --filed by probably Ava,
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in all like lihood without question, the
club, and potentially the shareholders of
the club to intervene in this laws uit.
They are not going to sit back and watch
the Vill age fight with Doug Rudolph about
their property, in effect. Okay? They
are going to come into Court and th ey're
going to move to interv ene . I would say
they have got a 98 percent chance of
getting in this lawsuit .
You may tell us and we'll talk to
you --about whether we want to oppose
that, whether we want them in it or not,
but the cha nces are is they get in. They
own the land that is the subject of the
lawsuit. They have forme r members who
voted on this thing. They are directly
impacted by the outcome of this suit. r
can't envision a Court not letting them
part i cipate.
So you also need to understand that
once they're in, how th ey handle th e
lawsuit may affect the way we handle the
lawsuit.
We may say, we'd l i ke to settle.
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They may say, we're not settling this
lawsuit --
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: But again,
Steve, what the Mayor asked is: How do
you settle a lawsuit whe n they 're claiming
a conflict of interest in the adoption of
the Master Plan? That's the law . The
law
MR. HELFMAN: You might settle, for
example, by saying, you know what? We're
not going to admit anything in this
lawsu i t, but what we're going to do is,
we're going to rehear the comprehensive
plan . Okay? Let's have a full -blown fair
public hearing where everybody gets to
speak , no prejudice . Everybody d i scloses
that they don't own an interest in the
land.
And Rudolph may say, you know what?
If you're going to do that, that's all I'm
looking for i s an open fair process . I
don't need a Court to determine that this
guy was a bad guy or this guy wasn't a bad
guy.
Maybe that's h ow you sett l e it. I
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don't know. I have no idea, but there are
multiple ways. And I suspect by the time
this thing makes its way through the
process, there will be so many different
tangents and so many different turns that
this thing takes that we can't even any
think of because once Ava and the club get
in here, they're going to have a way that
they want to track this lawsuit. Okay?
They're going to say --they're going to
come up with a million reasons why the
lawsuit shouldn't even be heard at all.
On the other hand, we may say, well,
listen. You know, we want this thing
aired. We want to make sure. Maybe Jim
Boggess said, you know what? I want this
thing to go away. I want to be done. I
want a Court to say I didn't have any
conflict of interest. Okay? I want to
clear the air here. I don't want it
settled because I didn't do anything
wrong. Okay?
So this thing could take so many
different angles, and it will have
multiple people involved in it . It's the
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beginning of a process that we will work
through t ogether and get through it, but
it's going to be compl i cated and it's
going to be sensitive and the newspaper
articles are not going to stop .
going to be there.
It's
This is a serious thing that they
have done, a very serious thing. And if
it's true, then rightly so. I mean, if
there was an improper voting on th i s
thing, then it should be addressed. I
mean, I'm not --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: How do we determine
that?
MR. HELFMAN: What typically happens
is you go through discovery, you go
through --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: That means you
investigate .
MR. HE L FMAN: We do a l i mi ted
investigation.
I'll call up Jim. I'll say, what the
h ell's going on h ere? Did you have th i s?
Did you do this?
I'll call up Olsen. I'll say, hey,
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Olsen, listen. This is your reputation.
Do you want to sit down with me and
explain to me why you didn't have a
conflict of interest, or do you want me to
admit that you did? Okay.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: So you would --
MR. HELFMAN: That's an investigation
on our behalf.
Then there's formal discovery i n a
lawsuit where we subpoena people. We take
depos i t i ons. We file requests for
admissions.
Please admit this. Admit that.
it. Provide us with documents.
Deny
I mean, I don't know who was a
member. I'm going to want to see the
club's membersh ip rolls. For that year at
that t ime, I want to know whose name it
was ves ted in. You know, I think Jim
never owned a certificate in this place,
as far as I know. We're going to find
out. I think his condominium owned the
certificate and that he had some
beneficial interest in one -twelfth of the
certificate.
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So I don't know that for sure. We're
going to look. I want to talk to Jim
about it, but all that's going to come out
through the discovery process and if we
find
MAYOR HIRSCHL:
that.
If we al l ow you to do
MR . HELFMAN: Yes.
ASSISTANT MAYOR T ANTLEFF: Can I ask
you? What does the case law say?
MR. HELFMAN: About what?
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: About
MR. HELFMAN: You ain't going to find
a case like this.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: No. What
does the case law say in terms of a
conflict of interest? What does the case
law say?
MR. HELFMAN: There is a prohibition,
which you all are aware of because of
you're public officials
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF : But are
there any cases that
MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
MR. TANTLEFF: Okay. Do you have any
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case law today at all, whether interns or
anybody working over the weekend for this
major meeting? Do we have any case law to
discuss t oday?
MR. HELFMAN: There is a lot of law
on confl i ct of interest. Most of it is
opinions --
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Attorney
General.
MR. HELFMAN: --Attorney General
opinions, which are opinions. They're as
good as your opinion and my opinion.
Okay?
ASSISTAN T MAYOR TANTLEFF: Right.
Sure, okay.
MR. HELFMAN: But basically, what the
law is that you're all aware of i s that if
you have a matter that will enure to your
own private special gain different than
the public at large, you shou ld recuse
yourself from voting on that matter.
Okay?
But that is a decision that's vested
in you all as individual people who are
the only ones who know what you have and
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don't have.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: So the a t torneys have
no obligation --
MR. HELFMAN: No.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: at the beginning
of the meeting to get into that .
MR. HELFMAN: No unless --well, let
me tell you what typically happens.
What typically happens --and I
expec t ed that you might ask that --is
that somebody comes to us --and this
happens all the time in the multiple
ci t ies --and says, listen. I'm a little
b i t concerned . You know, I own part of
this proper t y or my sister owns it or I
have had people that say, my mother lives
on that block. Do you think I should be
voting on this th i ng?
And we then will give advice. We
will say, this is the law . We'll try to
help out and give advice on whether or not
you really have a conflict that you should
be recusing yourself on. That's the way
that these things proceed .
Otherwise, what happens is your
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lawyers end up be ing policemen, which is
not our job. You didn't hire us to be --
(Thereupon, there was an interruption
in the meeting, after which the following
proceedings were had:)
MR. HELFMAN: I don't know what I
ordered --
Let the record reflect that there's
food being passed out now and when I said
I don't know what I ordered, I can't
figure out whe t her i t's ham, roast beef,
or turkey.
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: There was
an original order, and that order got all
messed up. They sent bread and no food,
so it's whatever is t he re
MR. HELFMAN: By the way, I could
care les s . So it doesn't matter. Tak e
whatever you want. I'm talking, so I'm
not going to eat here.
We should know this, by the way, for
the future just so we have a good
understanding so that we don't end up in a
situa ti on similar to t hi s in the future.
We're not policemen, your lawyers.
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We don't stop at every matter on the
agenda and start quizzing each of you and
say now, does your mother work h ere? Does
your father work here? Do your kids have
any interest in a trust that might be
affected by this?
We don't know your personal lives.
It's not our business to be querying you
about whether or not you have a conflict
of interest on any particular vote. Okay?
Our role is t o give you advice and
when you believe that you have a potential
conflict , you should come to us and se ek
our advice on that, but we're not an
enforcement agency. Okay?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Ok ay. You made i t
clear.
MR. HELFMAN : But t hat's a fair
question, Andy, a very fair question
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Sure, it's a f air
q u estion . I thought about it.
MR. HELFMAN: --because it comes out
and people say well, why were we in this
situation?
It's because the obl i gation is on the
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person who votes by State law to identify
whether he is working on something or
voting on something that might benefit him
personally.
It's not on your lawyers to do
pre-voting investigations on e v ery matter
like we hav e an agenda --
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: The burden
is on the elected official to come to you.
open .
MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Got you.
MR . HELFMAN : And then we are very
But our clients do not want us
probing into their personal lives and
their finances on every vote t hat they
take .
It would be unworkable if I had to do
that or we had to do that with you, and we
wouldn't be your lawyers f or lon g because
I don't think you'd stand for it.
So that 's the answer to that
question.
Why don't we open it up? If I th i nk
that you're delving into questions that
are beyond t he scope of this kind of
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meeting, I'll tell you.
Again, there may v ery well b e an
impact of this lawsuit on the zoning of
the property that's the subject of this
lawsuit.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: So what do
we do about that?
MR. HELFMAN: And ultimately,
depending on what happens with this
lawsuit, we may do something about it or
the Court may do something about it. It
may tell you that the zoning was improper
because the comp plan was invalid.
We may at some point have to go back
and downzone the property. If we z one
it
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS:
upzoned yet.
It hasn't been
MR. HE LF MAN: It hasn't been upzoned
yet. But if we upzone i t, we may have to
go back and downzone it. We may have to
go back and say, hey, listen. It was
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Is this the
appropriate time to talk about zon ing
right now?
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MR. HELFMAN: No. I 'm just saying to
you at some point in the future depending
upon on what happens with this, that there
are all sorts of consequences to the
property that are going to occur and to
us, too. We will be in the middle of
that.
MAYOR HIRSCHL :
about the l awsuit.
I would like to talk
MR. HELFMAN: I do, too.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: You mentioned before
that --and I don't know --I still don't
know any law, I'm happy to report.
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I know minimal
dentistry. I know less law.
I would like to know that you said
something that the case is twelve years
old.
Are there statutes of limitation that
come into play here that would allow us to
overlook this lawsuit and just move on?
is one question.
The second question I have is: If,
as you mentioned in your discuss ion with
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us, that since the public was not given
the fair opportunity to be aware of the
compromises that people had prior to
voting, that they should be allowed to
have that opportunity for a hearing.
My question is, what takes precedent
here? What is the answer?
MR. HELFMAN: This is a highly,
highly, highly unusual lawsuit. There is
nothing that comes close to this kind of
lawsuit.
MAYOR HIRSCHL:
sound expensive.
It's beginning to
MR. HELFMAN: Oh, no. It --yes.
mean, it may very well be and we may not
control that. Doug Rudolph may control
it.
I
In othe r words, the degree to which
he wants to pursue this aggressively , we
may be responding to a lot of stuff --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I couldn't care less
about Doug Rudolph.
City
I care about th e
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --and the City's
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exposure
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --the City's
obliga tion to the citizens
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --or the City's
ability to tell Doug Rudolph to go take a
hike because the statutory limitations
have been exceeded here.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: That's what I want to
know.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay. There are a
number of defenses t o the lawsuit that
we're just beginning to look into and he
may --there's all sorts of things.
There's something called la tch es,
which is a concept that you waited too
long. You have a good case, but you
waited too long. Why did you wait a year?
Why did you wait twelve years?
I mean, the Courts are not going to
redress something just because you dec i d ed
that now is the right t im e to go after i t.
T here are statutes of limitations in
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lawsuits, like anything.
At some point --you may have been
really taken by a contractor, but at some
point after four or fiv e years, you can't
sue the guy any more.
MR. TANTLEFF: Do you know if there
are statutes of limitations?
MR . HELFMAN: I don't know whether
there's one on this particular type of
proceed i ng, but we're going to look at it.
I mean, those are the kind of things --
MR. TANTLEFF: Has anything been done
since we got served with the lawsuit?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: No. This meet i ng
MR. HELFMAN: Very little. This
meeting .
I mean, we have read it. We have
evaluated it. I have a number of ideas
about defenses. I have spoken to Jim
Boggess a little bit about the
allegations.
Yes. We're at the very formative
first stage of evaluating t he su i t and how
we want to respond to it, but like any
suit, there's going to be --there's a
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question of standing.
Does Doug Rudolph have standing to do
it? Was he an o wner of prope r ty in the
Village at that time?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No, he was not.
COUNC ILMAN ROTH: In 1988?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Does that have an
effect?
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: I t could.
MR. HELFMAN: Even if it was proper,
he wasn't here. He wasn't a res i dent. It
wouldn't have made a darn bit of
difference is the argument. Okay?
Because you --
Now, the r e doesn't mean there wasn't
a wrong. It just means that Doug Rudolph
can't assert th e wrong. It doesn't
mean
What Co u rts very often say is, you're
exactly right. There was a terrible wrong
here, but you don't have the right to
raise it.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I see.
MR. HELFMAN: Maybe your neighbor
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does. Maybe somebody else who lived here
at that time. So --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Suffice it to say,
it
MR. HELFMAN: But I don't know this
because I didn't know until you just told
me that he didn't own the property.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: He didn't.
MR. HELFMAN: I know that his wife's
family, I think, owned some property here.
Who knows?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS : Yes.
MR. HELFMAN: Maybe they amend the
lawsuit to bri ng in other Plaintiffs who
have standing.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: It's a
mess.
MR. HELFMAN: It is a mess. There
are always --you know, you read it. It
paints a picture and then you 90 back and
you start talking to other people and you
have got a whole different picture.
It's like oh, wait a minute. For a
minute there, I thought I was going with
this guy. Now, I'm going this way. Now
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that I hear he didn't own property there
and I hear he waited twelve years, all of
a sudden, while there may have been a
problem, maybe he's not the right legal
person to address the problem.
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: Can I ask
you? Were you our City Attorneys back
then?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Yes .
MR. HELFMAN: Individually, we were.
Our l aw firm wasn't.
We were working at a firm called
Fine, Jacobson and t hey were the City·
Attorneys at the time. Richard sat with
you.
There was a lawyer i n the firm at the
time who --small wor l d his name is
Carter McDowell, who now represents the
club .
That may result in some i n terest ing
conflict of interest poten ti ally here. I
don't know. I haven't even thought about
it, but Carter worked with me and Richard
and he was a land use expert at Fine,
Jacobson and he reviewed your
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comprehensive plan from compliance with
State law.
I think he was here. Maybe I was
here. I don't remember exactly the
proceedings.
Did you guys look at the transcripts?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I read the
transcript, some of it.
MR. HBLFMAN: Yes . Do you remember
who was there?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: No .
COUNCIL MAN BOGGESS: T h e records are
so sketchy.
I asked for this information several
weeks ago and I sent it to you at that
time because I heard a rumor this was
going to happen, but there was nothing in
there.
COUNCILMAN ROTH: You heard a
rumor --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Did we get poor
records?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: The transcripts shows
that matter up for vote --
MR. HELFMAN: R i ght.
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MAYOR HIRSCHL: --and who voted for
it.
MR. HELFMAN: So it 's minutes. It's
not a transcript.
MAYOR HIRSC HL: Minutes. Minutes is
what I looked at.
MR. HELFMAN: So it doesn't show any
of the v erbatim discussions that occurred
or who was there --
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: And the
tapes don't exist.
MR. HELFMAN: They don't ex i st?
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: No.
MR. HELFMAN: Why is that?
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: They don't
have to keep the tapes forever. There are
records destruct ion time limits.
MR . HELFMAN: And we don't have
tapes?
VILLAGE MANAG ER TREPPEDA: No, no
tapes.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I wish we did.
MR. HE LFM AN: You hav e looked?
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: Yes.
MR. HEL FM AN: So the answer on the
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statute is there may very well be not only
a statutory bar but a common law bar from
bringing something too late.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Okay. My next
question
MR. HELFMAN: And that could be even
be as long as a year.
For example, if Doug Rudolph became
aware of this s i tuation a yea r and a half
ago, he may be precluded at this point
from raising it.
rt may be in the law that he waited
too long, that he should have brought it
with --and raised it in the other appeal
if he knew that it was a problem. So
and that --a Court of equity decides
whether it's really equitable at this
point for him to bring that up.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Okay . Let's assume
he has no standing . He has no --
MR. HELFMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --he has no
whatever, but the allegations pan out to
come true.
Do we, as the elected officials, have
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an obligation to right the wrong without
the lawsuit now forcing us to because the
lawsuit conveniently or for whatever
reason has to be dropped because of its
legal problems, as you say --
MR. HELFMAN: If a Court
MAYOR HIRSCHL: but the merit of
it is here .
MR . HELFMAN : If a Court said, we
find that there was a conflict of
interest, but t hat Mr. Rudolph doesn't
have standing to raise these issue s and,
th erefore, we dismiss the suit or we find
in favor of the City, I think at that
point certainly you would arguably have
th e opportunity to do something to address
that. Okay?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I missed you there.
If the Court says that the City
ASSISTANT MAYOR TANTLEFF: The
lawsuit has merit, but that the Rudolphs
don't have standing to bring the
lawsuit --
MR. HELFMAN: R i ght.
AS SISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: --then we
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could do something.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Okay.
MR. HELFMAN: What the law doesn't
let you do is pass ord i nances and at the
same time act in the judicial role of
judging whether your own ordinances are
Constitutiona l or valid or no t .
There's l aw, fairly well established
law, that leaves the validity of an
ord i nance with a separate arm of
Government. That's t he separation of
Government into the judicial arm, the
legislative arm, the executive arm.
You, in adopting that ordinance, were
acting in a legislative capacity. You
were passing an ordinance establ i shing a
policy, a land use comprehensive plan
policy, for the City.
You're not acting as Judges to
determine whether your action was proper
or improper or legal or illegal. That's
left to the Courts.
So if the Court f ound that there was
a violative c onflict of interest and that
this thing was done improperly, at that
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poin t , yes . I think that even if Doug
didn't have standing, you would arguably
ha v e the r i ght to go in and remedy that
wrong.
That may j ust be by holding a n other
hearing, a public hearing, allowing
everybody to come and do that .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Let's assume t he
Court say s there's no merit for this
lawsu i t at all.
MR. HELF MAN: R i g h t .
MAYOR HI RSCH L : There's n o thing wrong
here . I t's f i ne.
MR. HE LFMAN : Okay.
MAYOR HIRSCH L : And I , as a Counc il
person who have read those transcripts
I'm not a Judge or a lawye r .
MR . HEL F MAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I r e ad an d
unfor t unately, it does deal with o ne o f
our own here p r esen t --
MR . HE L FMAN : Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --wh i ch i s
disturbing to me because he's a great guy.
What if we --we know what that says
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in the minutes. I mean, it's there. I
kept reading it and reading it and reading
it.
MR. HELFMAN: You might have --I'm
making this up, but you might have the
ability to bring a dee action, a
declaratory judgment action, on your own
saying that a dispute has arisen between
the Vil l age and a property owner, for
examp l e, and that you want the Court to
declare the rights of the parties and
maybe bring th is is sue before the Court
through the Village.
Now, that's unusual, but we could
conceivably end up in a situa tio n like
that. It's totally outside the scope of
this. It's as though no suit ever
happened . Somebody just brought it to
your attention. You're in dispute as to
what your rights are as a Village in
enforcing your plan because somebody has
alleged that i t's invalid and you're
looking for the Court to determine whether
it's valid or not.
Now, the property owner who i s
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affected by that is go ing to be a
Defendant. They're going to come in and
say, they can't do this now. They passed
the ordinance. It's 12 years and now
they're second guessing themselves, and
they'll come up with all sorts o f defenses
to keep you from getting that judgment
that you're looking for.
So there is probab ly an avenue to
explore it if t hat lawsuit doesn't go
anywhere --if this lawsuit doesn't go
anywhere.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: In your professional
abili t y, does this lawsuit forgetting
the statute of limitations
merit?
does it have
MR. HELFMAN: I think if all of it is
true, if everything that they have said is
true --and forgetting about all the
technica l d if ficulties. If you had the
right Pla i nt iffs and you brought it timely
and everything else, I think it could be
meritorious.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I'm done with my
questions.
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Next? Anybody?
MR. TANTLEFF: So we don't talk about
the zoning hearing until tomorrow.
COUNCILMAN ROTH: We can't talk about
the inter-relationship
MR. HELFMAN: You can ask me and I'll
tell you whether I think we should leave
it for another discussion.
What do you want to know?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Ask a question.
COUNCILMAN ROTH: I want to know
basically --when we had the little chat
in private, you know
MR. HELFMAN: If you want to know
COUNCILMAN ROTH: Because we have to
make a decision tomorrow.
MR. HELFMAN: whether this affects
your vote tomorrow, I don't think that's
the proper topic to be discussed here.
I 'm happy to t alk to you about it
privately and give you my thoughts on
whether or not it impacts the vote
tomorrow.
So let me tell you what I think
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Do we have to
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recommend to you what to do at this point
or publicly, we have to do that?
MR. HELFMAN: If you think --
MAYOR HIRSCHL : Do we announce this
lawsuit to the public tomorrow?
' MR. HELFMAN: I think that there's
COUNCILMAN ROTH : You've got to
answer it.
MR . HELFMAN: I suspect that amongst
all of you, it will be raised tomorrow --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: That's enough of that
question .
Do we then --do we --
MR. HELFMAN: Let me tell you what
we're going to do .
We're going to review it. We're
going to see whether there are any blatant
fatal defects in this suit, whether there
are defenses that absolutely should be
raised.
We're going to try to investigate the
truth of the allegations, as we would with
any lawsuits. If you got sued for a
contract or you got sued by some patient,
I'd come and I'd sit down with you --I
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know it's never happened and it won't
happen --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: It better not.
MR. HELFMAN: But I come and I sit
down and I say, "Andy, what happened here?
Did you ever see this person?"
"Yes. Well, they were here. I don't
remember exactly what happened or 11
MAYOR HIRSCHL: So you investigate.
MR. HELFMAN: So I'm going to do the
same thing with the Village.
I'm going to look at your plans. I'm
going to look at the notice. I'm going to
see --I'm going to look into this and
formulate a strategy for you all to
pursue.
I can come to you and explain that
strategy and say, "This is--" and we'll
talk about it. You'll tell me. I'm just
the lawyer. You're the client. You all
collectively will tell us how you want to
deal with this lawsuit.
I'll try to give you more
information, things that I've l earned,
tell you the potential defenses that you
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have.
If you don't want to raise some of
those defenses because you think that yo u
want to move this thing forward and get it
to issue and answer it and you say, just
answer the Compla int. Let's get going.
Let's get this thing before a Court as
quickly as we can and get a resolution to
it, great . We wi ll do that .
We'll do that and we'll probably call
a meeting, whether it's an Executive
Session and appropriate for that or a
regular meeting to discuss how we move
forward.
We have, I think, 15 days in which to
file an answer or some responsive pleading
and we take it seriously. I mean, we'r e
going to do it. We're working on it . Let
me tell you who is working on it
MR. TANTLEFF: And also, on that
note. What if we wanted another law firm
to handle the case?
MR. HELFMAN: You could certainly do
that.
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: Because I
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would like to bring it up for discussion.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Now?
MR. TANTLEFF: I don't know when t o
bring it up .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Regarding th i s case?
MR. TANTLEFF: Regarding this case .
MR. HELFMAN: Yes, this case .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Okay. Then --
ASSIS T AN T MA YER TANTLEFF: I just
think that --
MR. HELFMAN: I don't think i t's out
of order.
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: Yes. I
mean, I have great respect for you --
MR. HELFMAN: Right .
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: --and
your firm --
MR. HE L FMAN: I know that.
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: --but I
think this firm is too close. I think
Richard was sitting on the Council during
this meeting.
I will say publ i cly that the last
lawsuit we went throug h was not very
sa ti s f actory to my, you know, conc l usion.
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I think that everything that we were told
did not happen.
I would like to investigate the
possibilities of bring i ng in outside
counsel that are well versed in munic i pal
law to handle th i s l awsuit and let them be
our City Attorneys, but I don't think it's
a good idea to have them in this lawsuit,
given the --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: You don't think it's
a good i dea for what reason?
MR. TANTLEF F : We l l, Richard Weiss
may even be a witness in this potential
lawsuit. we don't know what's go i ng to
happen going back there and I think it's
just time that given the complex i ty of
this lawsuit, that we don't have our
regu l ar Village Attorney serve in this
lawsuit which can go in a hundred
d i fferent directions.
It's just something I wanted to bring
up for discussion.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I feel very
comfortable with them, but --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I mean, the
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possibility does exist that Richard would
be deposed --
MR. TANTLEFF: Of co ur se.
MAYOR HIRSCHL --and all that stuff,
too?
Isn't there a client-attorney
privilege?
MR. HELFMAN: It is conceivable that
somebody might want to ask R ichard whe ther
there were discussions between him and the
Council people about a potential conflict
of interest.
That's the only --th e only th ing
that I would think would happen is
typically, the lawyer i s not deposed on
that. But somebody would go to Jim in a
deposition and say, well , did you talk to
anybody about thi s? Did you think you had
a conflict of intere st? Did you talk to
the City Attorney?
If he said no, that would probably be
the end of it.
I'm n ot --I understand your concern.
I'm not adverse to it. You all need to
determine whether you think that we're --
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I don't th i nk the conflic t of in t erest
thing should interfere with you all having
to go ou t and get outs i de counsel. I
don't think --
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: No, that's
not
MR. HE L FMAN: And if i t eve r did at
some point create a situat i on, we
obviously would immediately --we would be
the first people to say, wait a minute.
We're going to be a witness in th i s th i ng.
We can't be the lawyers. That would b e
the f irst thing.
If that's what you'r e concerned
about --
ASSISTANT MAY E R TAN T L E F F : No.
That's like 10 percent of the concern.
MR. HELFMAN: Okay. If y o u have some
othe r concern, you should air it --I
don't know t ha t this is really the proper
f orum to do it.
MR. TANTL E FF: Okay.
MR~ HELFMAN: I think if you all want
to have a meet i ng to discuss it --forget
about the merits of the lawsuit, which you
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may not want to discuss in a public
meeting, but you want to talk about what
lawyers you have handle it?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: It has to be at a
Council meeting?
MR. HELFMAN: Yes. You can't talk
otherwise outside of a Counc il meeting.
COUNCILMAN ROTH: We only have 15
days to answer.
Why can't they answer the lawsuit,
and then we could decide if we ne e d an
outside counsel?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Te l l us why we
shouldn't, though . You're an attorney.
MR . TANTLEFF: That sounds like a
good plan.
I just know that a lot of cities do
have other people other than their
attorney handle matters.
MAYOR HIRSCH L : R i ght.
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: The last
lawsuit, we let them handle. We should
bring in it's time that we bring in
other people who are very competent to
assist us with our legal troubles. This
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is going to be a big one.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: That last
lawsuit was a stab in the dark, at best.
MR. TANTL EF F: Right.
COUNCILMAN BOGG E SS: So t he results
of that shouldn't be --
MR. T ANTLEFF: No, but just in
general, I know from friends on the Dade
League that I speak to that all cities do
use other attorneys other than their City
Attorney.
MR. HELFMAN: Well, j ust so you know,
the reason tha t they do that is because
they don't have 27 man law firms that only
do municipal work.
Typ i cally, they have one City
Attorney who doesn't have the experience
in multiple areas, is not a l i tigator, is
general l y just a governmental person and
when they get sued they typically go
out
Like the City o f Coral Gables has a
woman named Elizabeth Hernandez. E very
single matter that comes in the City, she
farms out. She's jus t sort of the
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General.
MR. TANTLEFF: Right.
MR . HELFMAN: None of them have law
firms with 27 lawyers with mun i cipal local
government expertise that are handling it.
We have more lawyers, I think, than the
County Attorney's Office possibly.
MR. TANTLEFF: Right.
MR . HELFMAN: So that's t he reason
they do it .
But I'm not telling you --I don 't
want in any way to dissuade you, bel i eve
me.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I think it's an
important poin t .
MR. HELFMAN: I want you all to
have
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF: I wanted
to bring it up for discussion.
MAYOR HI RSCHL: As you all recall
when we did Munisport, you even told us,
bring in Gerry Richman
MR . HE L FMAN: Right.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: --you know, bring in
other attorneys --
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MR. HELFMAN : Right, absolutely
and
MAYOR HIRSCHL: This is without
question
MR. HELFMAN: --if you feel that
we're not suited to handle this matter and
you feel that there's another law firm
that should do it, you should have that
discussion.
mean
I am not offended by that.
MR . TANTLEFF: It's not meant to
offend you.
I
MR. HELFMAN: I want you guys to have
the best representation there is .
MR. TANTLEFF: Right.
MR . HELFMAN: I think we can provide
it to you, but that's your decision, not
ours . We don't make that decision.
MAYOR HIRSCHL : And that discussion
is not now. Correct?
MR. HELFMAN: It's not during the --
it's not purpose of this meeting.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Right.
COUNCILMAN GORSON: You're leaving us
off. What do we do tomorrow?
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MR. HELFMAN: We're going to talk
about that --individually, I 'm happy to
chat with you about it, but not as part of
this proceeding.
COUNCILMAN GORSON: You started to
say something about tomorrow. You got off
on something else.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Can you give us
est i mates on cost? You mentioned earlier
that cost is one of the d i scussions today
a nd you had a very loose --
MR. HELFMAN: Yes, yes.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: number out there.
MR. HELFMAN: I don't even have that,
but let me t hink about this.
I think that this could be a --if
it's tr ied, it goes all the way through?
I think this could be a hundred to
$150,000 matte r .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: You'll have the
biggest law firm in town by the time you
get done with it.
MR. HELFMAN: I'll have --
COUNCILMAN ROTH: So it's a thousand
hours or less.
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MR. HELFMAN: I think that's what it
could be.
Now, I don't know what the other side
is going to do. I mean, Doug Rudolph has
got to --I mean, he's in this and so it
depends. He drives that to a great
extent. How many depositions he wants to
set down, how many hearings he want to
have.
I mean, I don't know what the
motivation is here, you know? I'm not
sure tha t he's in it for that numb er.
don't know. I have no idea what his
I
theory is or whether he's just do i ng this
to sort of throw something out there to
try to pidetrack the process.
I suspect that the developers will
look at this as something that is just
something that he's throwing out there to
try to mess up the process.
MAYOR HIRSCH L: It seems stronger
than something thrown out there, though,
to me.
At face value
MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
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MAYOR HIRSCHL: At face value, it
does.
MR. HELFMAN: It 's certainly serious
allegat i ons.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Yes, and as you
say
MR. HELFMAN: The strength of them I
don't know, but the seriousness of it
is
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Let's not call the
paper.
MR. HELFMAN: You know what I really
think that you should --
MR. HELFMAN: Please.
MR. HELFMAN: --probably tell them
that the matter it's a litigation
matter and just refer them to us and let
them call us.
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: Send it
right to them.
MR. HELFMAN: That way, you don't
have to worry about anything. Just tell
them, listen. Our lawyers have asked to
us refer any comments to them, and you're
out of it.
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MR. TANTLEFF: So can I ask you then?
Tomorrow when he get to tab B, do we
just look to you for what we do from
there?
MR. HELFMAN: Yes. You and I will
talk about it after the meeting
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Have your individual
discussions --
MR. HELFMAN : Yes. We have some
time.
ASSISTANT MAYER TANTLEFF:
meetings?
Individual
MR. HELFMAN: Yes. Okay, anything
else?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Any other questions?
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: Do you
anticipate asking for another Executive
Session at tomorrow's Council meeting so
we wouldn't have to ca l l a special
meeting?
MR. TANTLEFF: Do we proceed with
letting you do the answer?
MR. HELFMAN: You probably should.
think what we'll do at t omorrow's meeting
is ask for another Executive Session
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meeting that we set maybe 10 days from
now.
If we need it, fine . If we cancel
it, we cancel it. It doesn't that way,
we'll have it available and we won't have
to call another meeting to have a meeting.
MR. TANTLEFF: So do we let you
proceed now with the answer? Is that what
you need now fro m us, the 20 day limit?
MAYOR HIRSCHL: I think he has to do
an investigation.
MR. HELFMA N: Well, we're going to do
all of the work in anticipation of
preparing a responsive p leading . Whether
it's an answer or a mot ion to dismiss, I
don't know. You're going to do one or the
other .
MR. TANTLEFF: Right.
MR. HE LF MAN: I mean, you have a
responsibility, I think, to at a very
minimum --at a very minimum --at least
file some responsive pleading and not
default on the lawsuit.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Of co urse not.
MR. HELFMAN: I mean, is it worthy
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enough that you're n ot going to just close
your eyes and hope it didn't happen.
MR. TANTLEFF: Right.
MR. HELFMAN: I mean, we're going to
file something . So either way, the
research that we're going to do and the
investigation we're going to do is
basically the same.
What we arrive at in terms of that
respons i ve document that we fi le , wheth er
it's a mot ion to dismiss to say to the
Court basic all y, this thing should be
dismissed, it shouldn't even be here, or
whether it's okay, they state a claim . If
all this is true, but we deny that it 's
all true. It's not --you know, we'll
decide that as we go along over t h e next
two weeks, the best filing that we should
make .
COUNCILMAN GORSON: Is that something
you're going to discuss w ith us?
MR. HELFMAN: Yes.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Should we get
Jeanette back?
VILLAGE MANAGER TREPPEDA: Yes.
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MR. HELFMAN: Let the record ref l ec t
that we have now concluded th e
attorney-client session and then we are
going to ask the clerk --
MAYOR HIRSCHL: We're back in open
meeting. The attorney-client session has
now been closed --terminated.
Members of the genera l public are now
invited back i nto Council chambers for
further proceedings or matters . The time
is now 1 :09 p.m.
MR. HELFMAN (To the Reporter): Keep
this on the record.
MAYOR HIRSCHL:
adjourn?
Is there a motion to
MS. HORTON: It's 1:10. You're all
p r esent. You are going to need a motion
to adjourn.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Is there a mot i on to
adjourn?
COUNCILMAN BOGG ESS : So mov e .
MAYOR HIRSCHL: Second?
COUNCILMAN GORSON: Second.
MAYOR HIRSCHL: All in favor?
THE COUNCIL (IN UNISON): Aye.
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MAYOR HIRSCHL: Th i s meet i ng i s
adjourn e d.
Thank you .
(Thereupon, th e meet i ng was conc l uded
a t 11 : 5 0 o' c 1 o c k. a. m. )
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF FLORIDA
) ss.
COUNTY OF DADE )
I, CAROLE BERNARD BECKER, a Notary Public
in and for the State of Fl orida, do hereby
certify that I reporte d the foregoing meeting at
the time and place hereinabove set forth; and
that the foregoing pages numbered from l to 73,
inclusive, constitute a true and correct
transcription of my shorthand report of the
meeting.
WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL in the City of
Miami, Dade County, Florida, this 20th day of
October, 1 999.
CAROLE BERNARD BECKER
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