HomeMy Public PortalAbout1994-02-08 Special Meeting-Robinson-CASE 93-1192-CIV-ATKINS....
BAL HARBOUR VILLAGE
SPECIAL MEETING
FEBRUARY 8, 1994
4:00 P.M.
655 -96th Street
Bal Harbour, Florida
Re: CASE #93-llj2-CIV-ATKINS
Robinson v. Village of Bal Harbour
PERSONAL TOUCH REPORTING, INC . (305) 944-9884
MAYOR ESTELLE SPIEGEL
ASSISTANT MAYOR MATTHEW B. BLANK
COUNCILMAN JAMES E. BOGGESS
COUNCILMAN ANDREW R. HIRSCHL
COUNCILMAN SOL M. TAPLIN
CAROLE SHEROUSE MORRIS, VILLAGE MANAGER
RICHARD J. WEISS, ESQ., VILLAGE ATTORNEY
JOHN HAMILTON, ESQ.
WICKER, SMITH, TUTAN, O'HARE,
McCOY, GRAHAM & LANE
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THEREUPON, THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD:
MS. SPIEGEL: This is our special
meeting this afternoon at 4 p.m.,
February 8th, 1994.
May we have a role call, please?
MS. HORTON: Mayor Spiegel?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Here.
MS . HORTON: Assistant Mayor Blank?
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Here.
MS. HORTON: Councilman Boggess?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Here.
MS. HORTON: Councilman Taplin?
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: Here
MS. HORTON: Councilman Hirschl?
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Here.
MAYOR SPIEGEL:. This is our
executive session meeting and we will
have our attorney speak with us.
We will excuse you, Jeanette.
(Thereupon, Ms. Horton left the
room.)
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And Richard, do you
stay or leave?
MR. WEISS: I am going to stay.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I guess I
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will just kind of start off by doing
some introductions.
The gentleman at the end of the
table is John Hamilton. He is with the
firm of Wicker, Smith, Tutan, and that's
as far as I can remember.
MR. HAMILTON: ·Et al.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: He is the
attorney who has been retained by our
insurance carrier, Hartford, to
represent us in this matter.
Just to refresh your memory
relative to Executive Session, we can
meet --as we are involved in
litigation privately and discuss
these matters.
Obviously, we have a court reporter
present.
At the conclusion of the
litigation, the records and the
transcripts of these conversations and
these deliberations may be made public.
Is there anything else I need to
say?
MR. HAMILTON: Not as far as I'm
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conderned.
MR. WEISS: I would just add that I
think the purpose of the meeting is
that
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think John
needs to update everybody as to where we
stand.
MR. WEISS: is that we
originally had a lawsuit filed some time
ago by one of our police officers.
It has been going through the
discovery stage with depositions. The
lawyer for the insurance company
basically is doing his discovery, doing
his preparation for the case.
We have come to the point now where
it has been set for trial?
MR. HAMILTON: On the 28th of this
month.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: On the 28th.
MR. WEISS: So that at this point,
as you would with a private client, the
attorney for the insurance company
wanted to sit with us. Mr. Hamilton
wanted to sit with us and discuss with
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us what he thought about the case, what
he thought our possibilities were of
winning and losing, our liability,
possible settlement, and settlement
options, and those kinds of things.
Then at the conclusion of the
meeting, I would hope that the Council
would make some sort of decision as to
where the Village stood on this case.
John?
MR. HAMILTON: First, let me just
say briefly that the lawsuit that has
been filed in Federal Court is in front
of Judge Atkins who is the Senior
Judge, and that is now set for February
28th for trial --is essentially a
sexual discrimination action filed by
Pam Robinson .
Although there are other aspects to
it, to boil it all down to what she
basically claims is that number one, she
has to function in a sexually hostile
environment and number two, that she was
denied a promotion on the basis of her
gender .
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If, indeed, she has to act within a
sexually hostile environment or if she
was denied promotion solely on the basis
of gender, she has an actionable case
under Title 7 and also a Florida
statute with regard to sexual
discrimination.
We have conducted discovery in this
case. Your insurance carrier is
defending you through our law firm, and
we have taken depositions.
Basically, we have a pretty good
idea of where the Plaintiffs are going
to go, what the basis of their lawsuit
is, what the thrust of their claim is,
and what evidence they are going to use
to prove their claim ..
Let me say at the outset that until
the discovery of a piece of information
.that is, in fact, a memorandum that
existed in the I.A. file --and we will
get into that in just a minute --I felt
that the basis of the Plaintiff's claims
was not supportable at all.
I felt that the claims were simply
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not true and something that a jury would
not accept.
I still feel that there was no
sexual discrimination either in her
promotion, nor do I feel that there is a
sexually hostile environment.
So that you all understand what my
personal assessment of the facts are, I
don't think that her claims are valid.
However, there are certain facts
that we have to deal with, and among
those facts are that she did qualify
when she took the exam.
Under the Collective Bargaining
Agreement, the Chief has the option of
selecting any of the top three
qualifiers. There were three
qualifiers.
The Chief initially selected the
person who scored the highest on the
exam, which as I understand it from
talking to the Chief and others, is
traditional.
However, a position opened. He had
to make another selection, and he chose
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the third highest on the exam and
promoted that person over Pam Robinson.
We believe that his choice was a
correct one. It was based on a
multitude of factors, including the fact
that the individual that he selected had
far, far more supervisory experience
than she did, had longer time engraved
with the police force, and in fact was
more closely aligned with the purposes
of the administration than Pam Robinson
was, who had exhibited in the past a
refusal to accept the present
administration in the police force and
was closely aligned with the past
administration.
We feel those are all facts that
are going to come out and will support
our defense of this case.
However, in the process of
discovery, there reared its ugly head a
memorandum in an I.A. file.
So that you understand
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Excuse me.
What is an I.A. file?
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MR. HAMILTON: All right. We will
get into that.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Internal
Affairs.
MR. HAMILTON: There is an Internal
Affairs file, and there is a personnel
file.
In the personnel file for the two
police officers who were promoted to
Sergeant, this memorandum does not
appear.
The reason it does not appear in
the personnel files is because there was
basically no disciplinary action that
was taken on this particular memorandum
and no .disposition.
Unless there is action and
disposition, it doesn't go into the
personnel file of the individual
officer, but it may stay and did stay in
an I.A. file.
The incident and the memorandum
were generated prior to the time that
your present Police Chief assumed his
position.
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So it had nothing to do
specifically with his taking action or
failure to take action based on what was
in the memorandum.
In fact, the internal investigation
file, internal action file, that it did
appear in was actually a matter that
dealt with another issue completely.
It was during the course of that
investigation that this information
appeared and that a memorandum was
written, and the memorandum was then
placed in that I.A. file.
No action was ever taken. No
disciplinary action was ever taken
against the two police officers.
Let me tell you briefly what that
memorandum dealt with. It dealt with
the two police officers who were
promoted, now Sergeant Harold and
Sergeant Merrill.
They were doing some work after
hours in uniform in their police cars
with a --and I'm not quite sure
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It was the
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the lighting of the menorah.
.MR. HAMILTON: It was the lighting
of the menorah.
Apparently, they had had some
problems with people ignoring the
walkways and were walking in the streets
and generally having difficulty, and
they were on an open channel, and some
anti-semitic remarks were made.
I can tell you that one of the
remarks is extremely objectionable
both are objectionable. One is
atrocious, absolutely atrocious, and if
it is heard by a jury and if the Judge
lets it in, it's inflammatory.
It has to do with --to put it
briefly, "Instead of lighting a
menorah, perhaps they should be
lighting the ovens." Okay?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
MR. HAMILTON: That is something
that is just outrageous, and it will be
viewed so by anybody who listens to it.
Now, understand that this was never
substantiated.
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However, the memorandum that was
submitted has within it the comment that
Chief Treppeda --who was not Chief at
the time --was in the room at the time
that this conversation took place on the
open channel, heard it, and said words
to the effect, "What in the hell are
they saying things like that on the
channel for?"
That implies that he was there in
the room. Chief Treppeda has no
recollection of this incident.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: This is on a
tape?
MR. WEISS: No, no.
·MR. HAMILTON:• There is a memo that
was written by a police officer that
basically says this is what occurred.
I believe that words to that
effect, in fact, were said. I believe
that the facts will probably support
that they were said.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Can I add two
points to this?
MR. HAMILTON: Sure.
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Just because
I know some of you will understand.
As you know, on the police radio,
we have two frequencies. One is the
Dade' County frequency. The other is
the local frequency.
This was on the local frequency.
MR. HAMILTON: And short range, so
that it would only have been heard
simply by people who had access to that
frequency, which would have been your
police force. No one else.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Exactly.
MR. HAMILTON: Chief Treppeda has
no recollection of being there. He has
no recollection of these comments.
When he was making his decision to
promote the two individuals to a
position of Sergeant, he reviewed their
personnel files because that is where he
would find any disciplinary actions,
whatever he needed to review.
At that time, the internal action
files --or the I.A. files --were not
put in chronological order. They
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weren't in any way where he could have
--for example, he would have had to go
through 10 years of I.A. files in order
to locate this particular incident.
They are not listed by individual. So
he did not review the I.A. files before
making his decision in this case.
Without this --what I call the
smoking gun. Without this highly
inflammatory memorandum and situation, I
believe the Plaintiffs have no case.
With this, they are going to use
this as a springboard to suggest, number
one, that the Chief maybe did know
because the memorandum reflects that he
was there.
He says he doesn't recall the
incident and doesn't recall those words,
but they are going to suggest that he
did know and that his comment that he
didn't review the I.A. file or he didn't
remember may not be the truth.
And I want to tell you personally I
don't believe that. I have had numerous
conversations with the Chief. I believe
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him. I think a jury may believe him.
It was a long time ago. We are
talking
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It was 1987.
MR. HAMILTON: 1987, so we are
talking seven years ago.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: This is back
where Louise Miller was manager and
Vaquero was Chief.
MR. HAMILTON: That is a long time
.ago.
But on the other hand, there is
that possibility that a jury may believe
that, in fact, he did know about the
incident --it wasn't that he forgot
and he put a minor importance on
on that particular issue.
I personally don't believe that,
but there is that possibility.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Who discovered this
file?
MR. HAMILTON: I believe what
occurred
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I can tell
you what happened.
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MR. HAMILTON: Well, I will tell
you what I believe occurred.
I believe what happened was that in
looking for a basis to support their
claim in this case, that Pam Robinson
got access to the I.A. file or learned
about the existence of this document and
got either got a copy in advance or knew
that it was there and sent a request for
us to produce it.
That is what I believe happened.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: You're pretty
close.
I think what happened probably was,
the I.A. investigator on that case was
Jim Cooper.
Jim Cooper is a very close friend
of Pam Robinson's. He was Vaquero's
for the lack of a better phrase --
self-appointed successor. Vaquero was
grooming Jim Cooper to replace
himself --or most probably to do so. I
think that's the opinion probably of
most officers in the department.
At some point, her attorney
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basically said, "Where is this document?
Where is this memorandum?"
None of us had any knowledge of its
existence until he started bringing up
this document that none of us
understood, and we started taking the
building apart looking for it.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Who wrote the
document?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Robert
Mo ruzzi.
MR. HAMILTON: Moruzzi wrote the
document .
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: One of our
stel l ar officers .
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
MR . HAMILTON: Correct.
COUNCILMAN HI RSCHL: Was he in the
Police De p a rtment hearing this over the
radio when this came through, and he
wrote a memorandum?
MR. HAMILTON: That's right. They
were i n the room where they could hear
the radio, and these comments were made.
It was then later documented in an
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internal investigation that had nothing
to do with these comments.
The Chief has testified. I~ his
deposition, he was asked about this
incident.
He said he had no recollection when
he was making the appointments. He
doesn't recall the incident or the
comments.
He was asked whether or not if he
had known about the comments, would they
have impacted his decision with respect
to promoting these individuals and he
said most likely, it would have.
It doesn't mean that he would have
promoted Pam, had he been given an
option under the Collective Bargaining
Agreement not to select her, but he said
that these kind of comments, had he been
able to take them into consideration,
would probably have significantly
impacted his decision making with
respect to these two individuals.
MR. WEISS: What is the legal
impact of a factor not considered in an
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employment decision?
MR. HAMILTON: Well, see, that
really for me is not the issue because
if clearly it was a factor that was not
considered because the individual did
not have access and we are just
talking
If you could say, for example,
well, the Chief didn't read the I.A.
file. Maybe he should have, but he
didn't, so if he had known this or if he
had done that, he would have found this
out and he may have taken that into
consideration, that is one thing.
Unfortunately --whether it is
fortunate or unfortunate --the Chief
has no recollection of this, but the
memo itself mentions that he was in the
room when the comments were made.
That takes it out of the box of
being something that simply was not
considered, to put it in the box of,
well, the memorandum says he was there.
Now, the suggestion is perhaps it
was in his fund of knowledge, and he
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chose not to use it as a criteria.
So it calls into question his
credibility when he says, "I didn't take
into consideration in the promotions
that I made.tt
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think you
also need to remember that at the time
this event occurred, this memorandum was
written, Al was a corporal. He was just
another officer. He was not a part of
administration. I was the City Clerk.
Al was unaware whether an internal
investigation into those comments
actually was conducted or not and
whether or not those officers were
disciplined, because Internal Affairs
information is held in strict
confidence.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, actually,
according to --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It wasn't
investigated.
MR. HAMILTON: According to the
Chief, since he had no recollection of
this particular incident, he would not
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have even known that it occurred, nor
would he have sought to locate any
particular investigation.
If, in fact, there had been an
investigation and it had been supported
and verified, it would have resulted in
some disciplinary action which would
have appeared in his personnel file.
So his assumption was that since it
was not in the personnel file, either it
wasn't supported or it wasn't verified.
The fact of the matter is that
Moruzzi withdrew his complaint. He
withdrew it.
The reasons for that may come out
later, but the fact of the matter is he
withdrew his Complaint.
I don't think that that is a saving
grace, however, because regardless of
whether he withdrew it or not, if
somebody in a position of authority knew
that such a comment was made, I believe
that some sort of action would have been
taken.
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: Do you have
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the date that that comment was made?
What I'm driving at --
MR. HAMILTON: I do, but it is not
off the top of my head.
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: What I am
driving at is: If it was at the time
that the candles had to be lit, maybe it
was said.
But if it was not about that time,
I don't think anybody would think about
lighting the candles or --
MR. HAMILTON: I believe that there
will be no doubt that the comment was
clearly anti-semitic.
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: But could
you
MAYOR SPIEGEL: But what was the
date?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It occurred
during the time of the year --I don't
have the precise date in front of me --
but it occurred during the time of the
year when the menorah is lit.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: December.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: It was during
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Chanukah, wasn't it?
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Right.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I gave all of
the Internal Affairs files to John's
office.
We are waiting imminently for his
office to fax back to us a copy of the
memo, but he has all the files.
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: Because,
frankly, the point that I am driving at
is, if it was at a date that wasn't
anywhere near Chanukah --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No. It was
Chanukah.
COUNCILMAN TAPLIN: Then this
verifies it.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: To me, the
cogent point is this.
Chief Vaquero was responsible for
the department --
MR. HAMILTON: He was.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: at that
time.
Moruzzi made a report which was
never substantiated, and he later
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withdrew it.
The fact that he said Treppeda was
there does not, in fact, mean that
Treppeda was there.
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: We don't even
know that these comments were actually
made, do we?
MR. HAMILTON: Let me tell you from
the lawyer's point of view that I think
there will be sufficient evidence to
suggest that the comments were made, and
they will get before a jury.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Well, the
comments are despicable, but --
MR. HAMILTON: My function as a
lawyer is not to tell you what the truth
is.
My function is to tell you what the
impact of what the evidence may be that
is going to be in front of the jury.
MR. WEISS: So what is the impact
of this evidence on the case?
MR. HAMILTON: I think that it is
inflammatory.
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I think that without it, there
isn't much of a basis on which they can
claim sexual discrimination in promotion
of Pam Robinson.
First of all, the agreement clearly
allows the Chief to select among the top
three.
Secondly, because there is
sufficient support for his selection of
both Merrill and Harold on other
criteria that would justify his decision
making.
I clearly believe that absent that
issue, we have a strong chance of
winning this case.
In addition to that, let me tell
you that I don't think that we are
precluded from winning, even with that
issue. I want to make that clear.
MR. WEISS: Mr. Hamilton, I am not
sure that I understand.
I am not sure and I just need
for you to explain to them --how this
comes into
I mean, you said that it is
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inflammatory.
MR. HAMILTON: Yes.
MR. WEISS: If Pam was Jewish, I
understand that, but --
MR. HAMILTON: You are the Chief,
okay? You are the Chief.
"Chief, please explain to the jury
considering the qualifications of the
individual candidates for this
particular position in this community,
why you would select two officers who
made such clearly anti-semitic remarks
and exhibited that degree of
insensitivity to a position of
authority?
"Please explain that."
MR. WEISS: Okay. So he says --
MR. HAMILTON: He says, "I didn't
think it was that important."
MR. WEISS: No. He says, "I don't
recall that incident. It was --"
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It was in the
file, and you said it wasn't in the
file.
MR. HAMILTON: "But, Chief, --"
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MR. WEISS: Right, and it was an
incident
I am not saying that I wasn't
there. I just don't recall the
comments.
I reviewed the
MR. HAMILTON: That is obviously
our position, that that is what the
Chief has testified to.
MR. WEISS: Right.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: But I want
you to assume for the purposes of
argument that you have got a jury there,
and they don't believe that.
MR. WEISS: Okay. So the impact
that it has --
MR. HAMILTON: I mean, you have two
logical results.
They either believe the Chief, or
they don't.
MR. WEISS: So let's assume they
don't believe the Chief.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: He can also
say, "Having worked with all of these
officers, I knew from past experience
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that they had more leadership ability,"
and he was not aware of this Internal
Affairs memorandum.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I understand
what you're --it's 50 percent~-it can
go both ways.
But the issue remains that assuming
it was --I mean, Pam Robinson's
attorney is going to have to
acknowledge the fact that it is not in
the personnel file.
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Therefore, it
was not of i mportance in determining
part of the criteria in who they
promoted.
MR. WEISS: It wasn't considered by
the Chief.
MR. HAMILTON: I totally agree with
you.
I am telling that you without that
memo, I wouldn't be sitting here talking
to you.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I understand.
MR. HAMILTON: With that memo, if
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the jury does not believe the Chief --
Assuming he jury says, well, you
know, he was in the room. It's an
outrageous comment . How could he not
remember such an outrageous comment, --
MR. WEISS: So then what happens?
MR. HAMILTON: --especially when
he is in the process of selecting these
two individuals for a position of
authority.
How can he say that, and they can
go back into their jury room and they
sit down there and they decide: I don't
believe the Chief. I believe that he
knew about that comment. I believe that
that is something that he could not have
forgotten whether it existed in the
personnel file or not
Let me finish.
I am talking about, let's assume
the jury --that i s their decision
making. I have to assume the worst, not
the best.
MR. WEISS: So then where do they
go?
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MR. HAMILTON: Then they say well,
we don't believe he didn't remember. He
has told us under oath he didn't
remember.
What else don't we believe about
his testimony with regards to his
decision making concerning these police
officers?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Will they be
calling the former Chief Vaquero as
their witness?
MR. HAMILTON: They have him
listed.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I thought
they did not have him listed.
MR. HAMILTON: They have amended
their list.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: May I see the
amended list, please?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I should think
that all you would have to do is ask the
jury the following question:
Have any of you ever heard an
anti-semitic, an anti-black, an
anti-Catholic, an anti-Protestant, an
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anti-Indian, an anti-Arabic comment made
in your presence, and can you tell me
what the comment was and the date on
which it was made --
MR. WEISS: And who made it?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: and who
made it?
No. We have all heard this since
we were children, depending who we were
with and what was being said.
MR. HAMILTON: I agree.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: None of us
remember these things. You slough it
off let and --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: He is a good
co-counsel.
MR. HAMILTON: Do you want to sit
at the table?
MR. WEISS: Whose final decision
was it to make the promotion?
MR. HAMILTON: Well, according to
the agreement --the final decision is
the Chief's according to the agreement,
but actually the final decision has to
be approved --
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was
MR. WEISS: By whom?
MR. HAMILTON: --up the line.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Vaquero.
MR. HAMILTON: Vaquero.
MR. WEISS: So the final decision
made by Carole.
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
MR. WEISS: So Carole would also
be able to testify that she --
MR. HAMILTON: One of our points
and one of the things we are going to
stress in this particular lawsuit is
that they are claiming that there is
sexual discrimination in an environment
where basically the final decisions are
made
MR. WEISS: By women.
MR. HAMILTON: By women, and not by
men.
MR. WEISS: Let me ask you another
question.
MR. HAMILTON: So I am trying to
tell you that my view of the evidence is
that everything supports a defense of
this case, but one --
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MR. WEISS: Memo.
MR. HAMILTON: thing that really
bothers me, and it bothers me because it
is so inflammatory and it calls into
question the Chief's veracity. That's
what bothers me.
I don't have any question about the
Chief's veracity. I believe the Chief.
I think he may well be believed by a
jury.
But that issue is most likely going
to be before a jury.
MR. WEISS: Let me ask you a
question.
In your reviewing the past practice
here, although I know we have the
ability to follow the Rule of Three in
promotional cases, what has been the
practice in terms of --
MR. HAMILTON: Select number one.
MR. WEISS: Always?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Why was number one
not selected?
MR. HAMILTON: Number one was
selected.
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Number one
was selected. Number one was Steve
Harold.
After that, another vacancy came
up, at which time Chuck Merrill was
promoted.
MR. HAMILTON: See, the list is
good for a year.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: I see.
MR. HAMILTON: Within that one year
period, another vacancy came up.
There were two people who were
eligible at that time, Pam and Merrill.
Pam scored highest on the test in
all factors considered. However, of
course, that isn't the only criteria.
And she didn't score that much
higher, by the way.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: I was going to ask
how much higher.
MR. HAMILTON: No. They were
close.
MR. WEISS: The history is that
they have always taken the top
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candidate, always?
MR. HAMILTON: As far as I know.
When I asked,
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: As far as we
can determine.
There haven't been --
MR. HAMILTON: As far as I could
determine, they have taken the top
candidate.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: --that many
that were promoted by promotional exam.
It wasn't that long ago.
MR. HAMILTON: And you have to
understand, t here have n't been that many
in which there was a vacancy that opened
up after the top person was selected.
So this is a rather unusual
situation where you had more than one
opening during a period of time when the
list was still valid.
Even though we have talked to
Burke, who says that in his opinion, if
none of the candidates were qualified,
you could simply leave the position open
and select from another list, there
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isn't --I want to let you know that in
the Collective Bargaining Agreement,
there isn't really any definition as to
what you can do under this option.
I mean, can you leave the list
open? Can you declare the list null and
void because you don't like the
candidates and proceed to leave the
position open?
MR. WEISS: Altogether, did only
three people take the test?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No. They
were about seven who took the test.
MR. HAMILTON: No. Seven took it.
Only three --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: How many women
do we have now on our police force?
Pam?
MR. HAMILTON: Right now? Two.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Two.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Two besides
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Pam and
Madeline Orr.
MR. HAMILTON: Madeline was hired
after, however, Pam and I believe during
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the pendency of the claim.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Probably.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I thought I
saw a third one yesterday or this
morning.
If not, then one of our police
officers needs a haircut.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: That's a
possibility.
MR. HAMILTON: I think there are
two. At least, I am aware of two.
That was one of the first questions
I had I asked.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Only two.
If I may, I just want to read this
so that everybody knows it and I will
pass it around --but it is a very odd
fax and it is kind of hard to read.
This is the memo, and a it's a 65
form. It's addressed to Lieutenant
V . Valladares. Victor was the
Lieutenant at that time.
The subject is Radio Transmissions,
and it is dated 19 March '87, and it
says:
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"At the request of Detective Cooper
regarding an investigation he is
conducting, the following information is
submitted.
"On December 30, 1986, I was
working plainclothes detail in Bal
Harbour Shops observing the parking
areas.
"At approximately 6:00 to 6:30 p.m.
I was in the station squad room doing
some paperwork.
"Officer Treppeda was also present,
as a juvenile had been detained for
throwing a rock at a bus.
"My hand-held radio was on the desk
and it was on and mistakenly still on
Channel 6, local, since I had been on
that frequency earlier regarding a car
that was stolen from the Shop's parking
area.
"Officer Harold and Higginbotham
were working off duty for the Lighting
of the Menorah by the Shul of Bal
Harbour.
"Officer Merrill was working
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overtime for the City at the pedestrian
crossing at 96th and Harding.
"Officer Merrill and Harold were
carrying on a conversation, mostly
between themselves, but once in a while
also engaged in by Officer Higginbotham.
ttThe conversation was broadcast on
our local Channel 6. Officer Harold
said something along the lines that
'They are going to light the menorah
now. Maybe we should fire up the
ovens.'
"That was said with a German
accent.
"Officer Merrill responded
something about "the little kids with
their beanies."
"Officer Higginbotham said
something~ but I don't remember what it
was.
"Officer Treppeda was amazed at
what he had heard and asked me, 'Why are
they saying that on the air?'
"I attempted to transmit to the
trio to stop improper radio procedures,
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but they did not copy me.
"I later went to them in person and
advised them to stop this kind of crap
on the air in the future.
"This statement is true to the best
of my recollection."
It's initialed by Bob Moruzzi.
MR. HAMILTON: If you remember the
date of the memo,
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: And it was
written three months after the event.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: But December
30th?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: That's what
it says.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It fluctuates.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I know, but --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Moruzzi makes
a comment in here that he doesn't recall
himse l f what Officer Higginbotham said.
He doesn't recall, yet he was involved
in this conversation.
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: So I think
that has clouds --I think that that
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allows Treppeda --
The whole thing clouds.
MR. WEISS: Plus, Treppeda was
dealing with a juvenile at the time,
right?
MR. HAMILTON: But don't forget, it
also says that at that time Officer
Treppeda responded to what he heard and
said, "Why are they saying that stuff on
the air?"
So the memo implies, of course,
that he heard what was said.
And understand that the memo --
there are some very strange things about
the memo.
First of all, --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It's a very
strange memo.
MR. HAMILTON: --as you will see,
it is written substantially after the
event supposedly occurred.
Nothing was investigated at the
time of the event, no action was taken,
and in fact this memo was written at the
time that I believe Officer Merrill was
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being questioned with regards to
something totally different and all of a
sudden, the memo appears, and it appears
in an I.A. file that had nothing to do
with this incident.
So, you know, there is something
going on here that's very strange.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: The fact that
no action was taken on this casts a
great doubt on this.
If this had actually happened and
they know it had happened, I think some
disciplinary action would have been
taken.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I would have
hoped so.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: So why are
we putting so much emphasis on it?
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Because they
are going to.
MR. WEISS: Because it will
influence the jury.
MR. HAMILTON: I can't assume --
let me put it this way.
As I told you at the beginning of
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my little talk to you, I think there
will be sufficient evidence that comes
in, even from admissions of the officers
involved, that --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And from the
witnesses.
MR. HAMILTON: And from the
witnesses --that such statements or
similar statements were made on the
channel.
I have to operate under the
assumption in evaluating this case that
that is going to be proven. I believe
that they will prove that.
I don't not think that it is going
to be an adequate defense to say it
never happened.
I think that the thrust of our
defense has to be what I think the facts
are and will support, and that is that
it was not a part of any investigation
that was ever initiated on it.
Officer Treppeda at the time was
doing something else and had no present
recollection and wouldn't because he
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never was involved in any kind of
investigation or any action that was
taken upon it.
So when he made his decision, he
was reviewing the personnel files and
had no recollection of the incident
years later.
I think that your comment with
respect to that happens to everyone,
that they will put aside things that
they have heard, that they have heard
remarks.
We have all heard these kind of
remarks and years down the line, we are
not going to be able to say that we
recall them or who said them or under
the circumstances, regardless of whether
we are dealing with the person that may
have said them.
So .I think a jury can accept that
okay?
I am only concerned about the fact
that if they prove --which I believe
they will --that they occurred, then a
person who was present and heard those
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comments --which I think all around
this table, we would agree that if in
fact they were made, probably some
disciplinary action would have been
taken as a result of those comments.
He was the one who was now making
the decision with regards to promotion.
He had to evaluate three people, two of
whom were involved in this kind of
comment, and one of whom was not.
MR. WEISS: Have you filed any sort
of motions in order to
MR. HAMILTON: We are preparing a
motion in limine with respect to the
admissibility of this, taking the
position that it· is obviously so
inflammatory, that regardless of what
kind of probative nature it may have,
that it outweighs
MR. WEISS: The Judge will rule on
that just before trial.
MR. HAMILTON: Yes. He will rule
on that before trial.
He is not going to rule on it until
trial. I mean, he is just not going to
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do that.
MR. WEISS: There is a motion
called a motion in limine.
You can have a Judge rule on a
piece of evidence to say that evidence
can't come in, so that the discussion
battle about it doesn't come in front of
the jury.
The Judge sort of deals with it
ahead of time and says,• I am not going
to allow that in, and that's the end of
it.
MR. HAMILTON: Basically, a motion
in limine can deal wit h a lot of
different issues, one of which is, you
can't get it in because the rules of
evidence say you can't get it in.
Another basis is well, all right.
It may have some probative value here,
but the prejudice to the defense so far
outweighs the probative value that it
should not be allowed to come in because
it will color the entire case, and the
jury will make a decision only on this
piece of evidence and not on anything
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el s e .
Of course, the Plaintiff's position
will be yes, that is our very point.
Our very point is that it is so
overriding, it is so important that it
is something that clearly he remembered
and would have taken into consideration
and therefore, his decision on the
promotions is suspect because of it.
That is their case.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Yet if it was
so important, it would have been
pursued, which it was not at all.
Nothing ever happened with it. It was
not substantiated.
I don't know if Carole made you
aware but Officer Moruzzi
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: He knows all
about Officer Moruzzi.
MR. HAMILTON: I know all about
Officer Moruzzi.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Are you aware
that ex-Chief Vaquero also
MR. HAMILTON: I have a wealth of
information all of those individuals,
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and they will have to explain --
I mean, for example, Moruzzi is
going to have to explain why he withdrew
the complaint
If this was so important, if this
truly occurred, why did you withdraw
your complaint?
MR. WEISS: What did he say in his
deposition?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Why did you
wait three months to report it?
MR. HAMILTON: Why _did you wait
three months to report it, --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: A personal
theory, knowing the players back then,
is that Chief Vaquero did anything
he could to protect "his people," if you
want to call it that.
He stopped at nothing to do what he
did in his own surreptitious ways to
make --shall we say --not blackmail
type, but certainl y --
MR. WEISS: I just to remind you
that this is on the record.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I know it's on
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the record.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think --
MR. WEISS: Let me just ask you.
What does Moruzzi say in his deposition
about this?
MR. HAMILTON: We have not taken
Moruzzi's deposition. He wasn't listed
on their pretrial.
I think they have may have added
him, but he wasn't listed.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Do we have a list
of the witnesses currently?
MR. HAMILTON: Yes, we do.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: The current
witnesses?
No. I don't have the current.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, they just
amended. They had only listed four.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: We had taken all but
one of the four.
Essentially, you are talking about
the same people that were loyal to --
you know, Officer Bleim, Pam Robinson,
Mr. Burke who we have taken a sworn
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statement from, who is not going to help
them at all.
Mr. Burke is going to completely
support our position in this case, which
I think will come as somewhat of a
surprise to them since they listed him
on their pretrial.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Is it Officer
Burke?
MR. HAMILTON: Officer Burke, but
he is no longer
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Is he retired?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
MR. HAMILTON: Yes. He is retired,
but they listed him on their pretrial,
and so we took his sworn statement, and
his testimony is going to be supportive.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think you
all need to know --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: What is the trial
schedule?
MR. HAMILTON: It is now presently
scheduled for the 28th of February, but
you have to understand this is Federal
Court.
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we are not the only case on the
docket, and they will take criminal
cases first.
So when we will go, I do not know,
but we have to be ready to go by the
28th.
MR. WEISS: What is the position of
the insurance company?
MR. HAMILTON: We attended a
mediation with the Plaintiffs, as
ordered by the Court.
Actually, the Plaintiff's attorney
was supposed to get it set up long
before he did.
I had to call him and remind him to
do that because the Judge would not have
been happy had we appeared at the
pre-trial, which I just went to, and
found out that we hadn't mediated it.
I did not expect much to happen
there because I had gotten a demand from
the Plaintiff's counsel before the
mediation, which is clearly
unacceptable.
We went to the mediation. I
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believe that we had offered --I didn't
go --but I think we had offered as much
as $30,000 to settle the claim.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Something in
that area.
MR. HAMILTON: Something in that
area, and it was not acceptable to the
Plaintiff.
I think that I have to raise --one
of the purposes that I have come here is
not just to tell you about the lawsuit
because I think Carole could tell you
everything you need to know about the
lawsuit and what happened.
We constantly keep you informed.
She complains about the number of
letters she gets from me.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: This is the
file (indicating).
MR. HAMILTON: We believe in
keeping everybody informed about what is
going on.
The reason I came is because of
something else.
The insurance company has, of
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course, their interest in settling the
case. They evaluate the economics.
They have to pay me. They have to pay
the witnesses.
They have to look at their exposure
under their policy and how much they
potentially have to pay on the claims
that are being made and they are
interested, of course, in protecting
their insured and the future business.
They are still your carrier, as a matter
of fact.
However, there is another problem.
It doesn't factor into the insurance
company's evaluation of the potential in
this case, and their obligation to pay
under their policy.
That is that Pam Robinson is
presently a police officer on your
police force. Okay?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: As is Officer
Bleim.
MR. HAMILTON: As is Officer Bleim,
but Pam Robinson is presently a police
officer.
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She is seeking, of course,
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Back pay,
promotion, --
MR. HAMILTON: back pay,
promotion to Sergeant.
She is seeking the equitable relief
of having the Judge say, okay. There
was discrimination in the promotion so
you are going to have to be a Sergeant.
Make her a Sergeant. Give her the back
pay that she is entitled to.
She has suffered some degree of
discrimination here, so she is entitled
to compensatory damages, which are going
to be limited to $50,000 --no matter
what it is --plus attorney's fees.
So those are the economic damages
that you are looking at, plus the
equitable relief of making her a
Sergeant if she wins.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Plus adverse
publicity in the paper.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, see, the point
is that that is not the insurance
company's concern. That is one of the
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reasons why I am here.
The adverse publicity is not really
something that they are going to take
a look at and say, I am going to pay X
amount of money because you guys are
going to get some bad press.
So you have an interest of your own
with respect to this particular issue,
which needed to be brought to your
attention.
Secondly, you have an officer who
is making claims --whether valid or
not --of sexual discrimination and a
sexually hostile environment within this
department.
If she loses --she can either win
or she can lose this case. If she loses
this case, she is still an officer.
Any action that is done or taken
subsequent to this lawsuit with
reference to this lady --whether it be
promotion or whether it be how she is
treated by the Chief or anybody else --
is going to be subject to scrutiny by
her lawyer and by Pam Robinson with
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respect to Title 7, both in a
sexually discriminatory position or in
a vjolation of the section of Title
Seven that says you can't retaliate
based on the fact that somebody has
brought a lawsuit.
Every action that you are going to
take with respect to this lady is going
to be viewed by her in this context.
So I see there is another problem
that is particularly a problem for you
all, which is: Win or l ose, you still
are facing the problem that you have Pam
Robinson on your police force.
That is something that you all are
going to have to consider and evaluate.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: You know, at
Christmastime, all of us here came to
the luncheon --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: She was here with
her baby.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Of course.
Pam was here with her new baby.
There were other police officers around.
Every one of us was aware that this
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suit was pending.
I didn't see anyone be anything but
friendly with Pam, playing with the
baby. She was welcomed, just like any
other member of our family here.
And how she could claim
discrimination --and I just don't think
it would hold up.
Plus the fact I think when this is
over, if Chief Treppeda calls a meeting
and just said now, this is behind us.
Pam is still a member of the family,
blah, blah, blah, and get on with our
lives.
I don't see --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think you
need to understand --let me give you a
little more of the big picture and a
little less of the legal picture.
MR. HAMILTON: That's fine.
(Thereupon, Councilman Taplin left
the meeting.)
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think you
need to know that John and his
associate, Bill Fink who is not here
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today, have spent a tremendous amount of
time interviewing the employees in this
Police Department.
I wish I could tell you I had sat
here and heard every one of their
comments --I -haven't --but you have
probably got two or three full days
involved in interviewing employees.
They have had the luxury as to sit
and talk to some of our employees that,
frankly, I would lik~ to have.
They probably know more about some
of the incidents and gossip and all the
stuff that goes on in the Police
Department than probably anybody else
because you have had the opportunity
to talk to more of these people.
This suit and all of what is going
on right now is making an awful lot of
employees extremely uncomfortable.
Okay? I mean, beyond what you may
realize.
You have got two Sergeants out
there who feel like the world is on
their shoulders.
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The Chief and the Assistant Chief
are
I mean, myself? Yes. I will be
honest. I am concerned about this, and
I am upset about this, too. We all are
under a great deal of
pressure.
There are a lot of other officers
who, frankly, may be called as witnesses
who while going to Traffic Court or
Criminal Court doesn't faze them in the
slightest, the idea of walking into
Federal Court relative to this suit
makes them quake in their boots, and
they are under a lot of stress.
There is especially in view of
the fact that many of them feel that
they have gone out of their way to
extend, for lack of a better phrase, the
olive branch to Pam by being cordial at
the Christmas party, and the City sent
flowers when the baby was born --you
know, all of those little things that we
do routinely --and she had 90 days paid
maternity leave, those kinds of things.
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There is a great deal of resentment
that she is putting this City and them
through all of this.
Even if we sit down and call a
meeting --I'll be honest with you --
there are going to be some hard fee1ings
there for a long time.
Even if we do call a meeting and
say, "Okay. This is behind us. This is
over," the reality is that John is
right. This is
litigious word?
can I use your little
a litigious
individual, and the next time we have to
promote a Corporal, if it is not her, we
are going to be back in this room.
MR. HAMILTON: Let me say two other
things. Let me just give you some
examples.
There is a memorandum --actually,
a concerned citizen letter that went
out --that allegedly Pam reviewed
before it went out.
I n that concerned citizen letter
that occurred before the promotions were
made for Sergeant, it was stated in
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there that there is going to be a
lawsuit, essentially if Pam doesn't
receive the promotion.
There is attributed to Pam before
the promotions were made a statement
that she was going to either be made a
Corporal or a Detective or a Sergeant,
or she was going to sue.
The incidents of a sexually hostile
environment which she cites are things
like the following:
When she was going to have a
medical procedure, apparently she
revealed to Corporal Merrill what that
procedure was.
He went home and asked his wife who
is a nurse what the procedure was, came
back and said, "By the way, Pam, do you
know what they are going to do during
this procedure?" and told her, and she
took that as a sexually hostile event.
She says that on occasions, she is
pushed aside. In other words, when
another officer comes to a scene of a
crime, she is pushed aside and they
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continue on with the scene of the
crime --regardless of whether they are
senior or not --and she says that is
sexually hostile.
She says that at one time point,
she got into an argument with an officer
and a comment was made, "Well, it must
be her time of the month." That is
sexually hostile.
These are claims that she is making
against fellow officers that she took as
being sexually hostile types of actions,
direct statements, with respect to these
individuals.
Whether you agree with her
assessment or not --I don't. I don't
think under the law it is sexually
hostile.
I think as a matter of law, it is
not sexually hostile based on the latest
Supreme Court decision. It is not
pervasive. It doesn't affect her
ability to function in the police force.
I don't think they will be
sustained, but this is the kind of
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individual who is dredging up these
incidents --and I use the word udredge"
exactly the way it implies who
dredges up these incidents to support a
claim that somehow she is functioning in
a sexually hostile environment.
The reason I am here is to tell you
that my assessment of this attempt and
her use of these kinds of incidents
implies to me that you potentially may
have a problem in the future --win or
lose --with respect to this particular
lady and how she is going to view how
she is treated in this department.
That is something that you are
going to have to make a decision on,
also, with respect to the bad press that
you may receive and the potential that
you may have to appoint somebody to
Sergeant, which in your own Chief's
estimation is not qualified for that
position as a result of this litigation,
wh i ch definitely is going to be
upsetting to the people in the
department, I would imagine.
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MAYOR SPIEGEL: What about a
settlement prior to trial? Is there any
chance of that?
MR. HAMILTON: Well, there is a
chance of that, but that is another
reason why I am here.
The initial demand that I got
and I solicited a demand from the
Plaintiff's attorney on the following
with the following criteria.
Number one, it settles the case.
Number two, she leaves the force.
The reason I asked for that demand
was the very reason that I felt that her
continued presence is something that,
most likely, would result potentially in
litigation, whether it is retaliation or
not, which is going to be bad for the
City.
I want to know how much it would
cost to get rid of this problem
completely, including the problem that I
perceived through you all.
His comment was, "$200,000."
Now, that, quite frankly, is about
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four years of her pay, plus smart money.
I told him that it was
unacceptable. We are not paying that
kind of money. And I think it is
unacceptable.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: What about the back
pay? What would that total?
MR. HAMILTON: About $17,000, not
counting overtime.
I believe that there is a
potential and I am not saying that it
will come to fruition --but I believe
that there is a potential for settling
this case for less than a hundred
thousand dollars, including having Pam
resign from the police force.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: What about Bleim?
MR. HAMILTON: Bleim is the father
of her child and her live-in
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Boyfriend.
MR. HAMILTON: --boyfriend and
companion.
Allegedly. Let me put it on the
record. I don't know for a fact, but
allegedly, the father of her child.
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I would suggest to you that that is
a separate matter that you deal with
separately, and you deal with this
matter because if you try and have such
a global result, it will in my opinion
lead you to be doomed in having any
positive result in settlement
negotiations.
So I think you have to put that
aside and deal only with this issue.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Just deal with her
dismissal.
MR. WEISS: John, the bottom line
is, aside from the peripheral issue of
future liability, the future of what
happens with Pam and the department,
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
MR. WEISS: and
MR. HAMILTON: And the memo?
MR. WEISS: No.
MR. HAMILTON: You are going to keep
the memo in?
MR. WEISS: Well, let me just
f~nish the question.
--and the negative publicity to
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the Village that could come out of
either this case or this memo being made
public in other words, just the
courtroom issue, do you think we can win
this case?
MR. HAMILTON: I think we have a
better than 50 percent chance of winning
this case, even with the memo.
Of course, I am an eternal
optimist, also, and I believe I can win
anything.
But I think we have a better than
50 percent chance of winning this case.
MR. WEISS: Without the memo, you
think it's a clear win?
MR. HAMILTON: I think without the
memo, it's a clear
If I had to put percentages --and
I hate to do that because nobody has a
crystal ball
MR. WEISS: And I didn't ask.
MR. HAMILTON: but I will do it
because I venture where angels fear to
tread.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: If you
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believe that we have a better than 50
percent chance --or a 50 percent
chance --of winning this case, --
MR. HAMILTON: Yes.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK:
therefore, an I.R.S. demand would settle
for 50 percent.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, I
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: And if the
case is two hundred thousand, --
MR. HAMILTON: You are absolutely
correct.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: and you
feel that you can settle it for a
hundred,
MR. HAMILTON: Well, let me put it
this way. I don't think the case is
worth $200,000, period.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: That's what
they are asking for.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, that's what
they want.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Therefore,
you believe --
MR. HAMILTON: Well, don't forget,
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they are saying that she will resign.
So there is an opportunity cost to
her because she is making about $43,000
a year right now in her job.
So you are talking about an
opportunity cost to her. If she can go
get another job for $43,000 a year
within six months, then fine, but if she
can't, then she has got that opportunity
cost forever.
Oh, by the way, as part of any deal
with her resigning, she has to get a
letter of recommendation.
She didn't say who had to write it,
but I am assuming that she wants the
Chief to write it.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: The same
question I asked earlier,
MR. HAMILTON: The point is, you're
right. If there is a chance that we can
win this case, it obviously affects the
settlement posture of both parties.
That is why I think the case can be
negotiated for less than a hundred
thousand dollars.
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Don't forget that her attorney, Mr.
Cornell, under the statute has a right
to attorney's fees if, in fact, he
prevails.
So that is also a factor to take
into consideration because whatever is
paid, he is going to have to take his
dollar amount out of.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Can I ask a
question here, --
MR. HAMILTON: Yes.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: --one that
bothers me and that we may have talked
about and you may have touched on, but I
may just not remember.
Okay. We obviously know that Pam
has access to this memo, and at this
point, she is using this memo in
association with the sexual
discrimination cause of action.
MR. HAMILTON: Correct .
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: If Pam has
this memo, Bob Bleim has this memo,
Jose Andrade has this memo, --
MR. HAMILTON: Everybody has got
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this memo.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I don't think
Bob Bleim is going to take the City on.
I think Bob realizes that his employment
here is of a stature that he is not
going to find elsewhere.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, we took Bob
Bleim's deposition.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Jose would
use it in a heartbeat.
MR. HAMILTON: Right, but I mean,
we
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Is there any
way that we can be done with this
roommate forever?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We haven't brought
him into this at all.
What is his position?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Jose is a
peripheral character.
Jose is, I believe, on Pam's
witness list.
MR. HAMILTON: In fact, his
deposition is set for tomorrow.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes. He is
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being deposed tomorrow.
Jose is extremely hostile to the
Chief, and has been to the Chief and the
Assistant Chief since day one.
The classic scene everybody still
remembers is Jose standing in the
parking lot crying the day Vaquero left.
Jose --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Isn't Mr.
Vaquero the godfather of his children?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Probably. I
don't know.
This letter this "anonymous"
letter --attacking the Police
Department that went out a couple of
years ago, we have reason to believe was
probably in some part written by him and
Pam.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: In addition
to, if you recall, the lovely letters we
received from Sheila --
MR. WEISS: Levinson.
Just to add something to this case.
When Carole originally made this
decision and the Police Chief, the
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decision was not made lightly here. I
mean, it was something that --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Decision to do
what?
MR. WEISS: The decision to make
the promotion, --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: The
promotion.
·MR. WEISS: to promote these
other officers over Pam Robinson.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No. It was
not taken lightly.
MR. WEISS: It was something that
at the time from a legal point of view
and aside from this memo --that I
was very comfortable that was very
defensible.
I mean, obviously, the memo was
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Something
none of us knew about.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Were you aware
of the memo?
MR. WEISS: No.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Were you aware
of the memo?
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No.
MR. WEISS: Nobody --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Nobody was
aware of the memo.
MR. WEISS: And at that time, the
decision was --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Nobody was
aware of the memo until her attorney
showed it to me.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Is it stamped?
Do we know that memo was
actually
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It was in our
Internal Affairs file.
MR. HAMILTON: No question it was
in the file.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: When was it
put in there?
MR. HAMILTON: We are assuming in
'87.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes. Bob
Moruzzi hasn't been employed here since,
what, maybe '89? Something like '89.
MR. WEISS: Anyway, the point I was
going to make was that the issues here
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are --I think there are three issues at
least.
One is: Are you concerned about
the negative publicity if this case goes
to trial?
And there are two types of negative
publicity. One is the sexual
discrimination case, and the other one
is the anti-semitic case. That's the
first issue.
The second issue is: Are you
interested in having Pam Robinson leave
the police force? Is that an important
objective that the Council wants to take
care of?
And the third thing is --and if I
was trying this case, I would hope
people would do the same thing,
irrespective of what we may think about
this memo.
John is very concerned about the
memo and feels ~ike that the City with a
has a better than a 50 percent chance,
but it's not a slam dunk kind of a case,
that it causes some problems in the
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case.
I guess there is a fourth issue,
which is: We are insured for this --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: There are
limits to the policy.
MR. WEISS: I don't know what the
limits are.
MR. HAMILTON: I can't remember,
but the limits are sufficient. They
cover the demand of $200,000.
I can't make --as you understand,
however, about the insurance company.
One thing that I do not get involved is
in is coverage issues because that would
put me potentially in a position of
conflict.
I either say there is or isn't
coverage, and I don't --
MR. WEISS: There is no reservation
here, is there?
MR. HAMILTON: As far as I know,
there is no reservation of rights
letter.
I can tell you that I spoke --
MR. WEISS: I have never seen one.
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS:
seen one, either.
I have never
MR. HAMILTON: I spoke to the
insurance company --I want to say
Friday --maybe Thursday or Friday.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I leaned on
the agent today.
MR. HAMILTON: And there were some
comments with respect to well, we are
not certain that we cover the back
pay --but we are not certain we
don't --of $17,000.
I am not going to venture any
opinions about whether they do or don't.
That is only a comment that that they
made.
MR. WEISS: Because I don't think
they have given us a reservation of
rights --
MR. HAMILTON:
MR. WEISS:
No. They have not.
and I think they
have an obligation to let ·us know wher~
we are.
MR. HAMILTON: As far as the
present status, as I understand it right
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now based on the status of my file, they
have not made any reservations with
respect to coverage of the allegations
or the potential damages in this case.
MR. WEISS: So you understand, if
an insurance company looks at the policy
and says, we have received this lawsuit.
We think we cover some of it, but we
have a question as to whether we cover
all of it, they are required to send us
a letter that says, we are going to
supply you with a lawyer. We are going
to defend the case,
MR. HAMILTON: Right.
MR. WEISS: but we may not cover
all the damages.
MR. HAMILTON: They haven't done
that.
The only thing that puts a kicker
to this case in terms of fiscal
responsibility is the issue of the
negative publicity of the memo, the
negative publicity of the discrimination
should you lose the case, and the
potential problems that can occur as a
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result of Pam's continuing on, on the
police force here.
Those three things are basically in
your basket and give a value to this
case over and above what the insurance
company will consider in offering money
to settle.
That's the bottom line.
MR .. WEISS: Two last questions:
Do you want to settle this case if it is
funded by the insurance company?
Are you willing to settle this case
if the City has to kick in some money?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Well, that's
something we have to find out.
My point is, in trying to settle
the case: Wi·n or lose, she is still on
the police force.
MR. WEISS: That's right.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: When it goes to
trial, there are always reporters there.
Win or lose, if all of the memo is
brought out in public, the attitude
people will have when they happen to
meet the other two Sergeants on the
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street or the rest of the police force
or the entire Council.
MR. WEISS: John, is there a way --
I mean, to me, the memo is
certainly a key issue here.
Is there a way to get an earlier
ruling from the Judge on that memo?
Because that would change this case.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: If it is
inadmissible, --
MR. HAMILTON: I am going to give
you a legal opinion
First, I am going to give you a
practical opinion. The practical
opinion is that this Judge will probably
not rule quickly on such an issue.
He may refer it to the Magistrate.
The Magistrate will make a decision.
Then the Magistrate will send it up to
the Judge, and the Judge will make his
decision.
The second is a legal opinion. The
legal opinion is that based on what I
know of the rules of evidence, having
tried cases for 17 years, is: There is
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some probative value to this information
with regards to the Chief's decision
making.
Therefore, since there is probative
value, it satisfies the requisites for
admissibility.
The only issue is whether or not
the probative value is outweighed by the
prejudicial impact, which the Court will
consider.
Most courts are very reluctant to
take away from the jury evidence that is
probative --no matter how
prejudicial --because the basic
underlying philosophy is, let the jury
make the decision on the facts that are
probative to the issues being tried.
So I would say that your chances of
having this knocked out on a motion in
limine are not good.
MR. WEISS: And the other point
that I am just thinking about is that
irrespective of what happens in this
case --settle it, don't settle it,
whatever --this is a public record.
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This memo is a public record. It is
part of the depositions in the Court
file, I assume.
MR. HAMILTON: Yes.
MR. WEISS: It has been
produced.
There is nothing that prevents one
of the other people from sending a copy
of this memo to the Miami Herald.
I mean, there is nothing that in
the context of this lawsuit that we can
do to --it is a public record. We
can't destroy it
MR. HAMILTON: Other than a
confidentiality agreement with respect
to the memo itself.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: It can't be sealed.
MR. WEISS: No.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, a
confidentiality agreement with the
Plaintiff --
MR. WEISS: With the Plaintiff,
absolutely, but with respect to all
these other people in the department
MR .. HAMILTON: But the memo is a
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public record.
MR. WEISS: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: That will get
discovered.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: If Sheila
Levinson got ahold of it or Vaquero or
any number of people, they would love to
send it to the Herald.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I would
venture that they all have knowledge of
this memo.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Personally,
the memo does nothing for me.
Mr. Boggess made a comment which
was very accurate. We all are privy to
this. We have all been involved in this
in our own way over our lifetimes.
The real issue is her continued
employment in this City. That is the
issue, period. In my opinion, that is
the issue.
If she continues in this department
after the case is settled --or whatever
it may be --or it goes to Court and she
wins or loses and she is still in the
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department, we are continuing with a lot
of problems.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, the one
thing you have to understand is, --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: If we settle, she's
out.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Settling
without --
MR. HAMILTON: Title 7 absolutely
prohibits and nothing that has been
said here in any way implies that this
would ever take place --but it
absolutely prohibits retaliation against
an individual for bringing a Title 7
action.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: No one talked
about that.
MR. HAMILTON: I agree. Nobody has
said anybody anything about retaliation.
There will be no retaliation.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No.
MR. HAMILTON: But what I have to
tell you as a lawyer is that any actions
that relate to Pam subsequent to this
lawsuit --win or lose --will be viewed
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by her and any attorney in context of,
is there any retaliation that is going
on.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: You have told
us --or it has been said here today
that this is a litigious individual,
period. It has been mentioned here
today.
This is a woman who --
MR. HAMILTON: I think her attitude
about these issues is litigious, yes.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Well, there
are comments in our memorandum and
individual~ will testify she is not well
liked by other officers.
She is abrasive and tends to
escalate tension when responding to
calls.
This is nothing new.
MR. HAMILTON: No.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: This has been
going on with her performance for quite
some time, and I think that --
I hate to give people money
unjustified.
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COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: So do I.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It ·really irks
me to buy out our problems.
MR. HAMILTON: I have been doing
defense work for 17 years, and you don't
know how much I dislike it.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It disturbs me
as much as even th~ insurance company
saying, let's give her $30,000, without
even knowing what is going on here.
I find that insulting, too, but
that is unfortunately economics and the
way of the world.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, let me say
this. The insurance company knows what
is going on. They are fully advised.
They are aware of everything you
are aware of now and were before they
went into that mediation.
Their attempt to settle the case
was done not only in the interest of
economy, but also in the interests of
trying to protect you, because they have
an insurance policy that obligates them
to try and do that.
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I don't question their motives in
doing so.
My function here is to tell you
that in this particular case --as I
have described --there are interests
that go beyond the interests of the
insurance company in settling this case
that you have and that you ought to
consider.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I think --
MR. HAMILTON: Your decision is
your decision, but you should know --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: What decision
are you asking from us?
MR. HAMILTON: I am not asking for
a decision.
I am telling you facts. The
decision is yours.
If you tell me we don't care, go to
trial, that's fine. Let's go. That's
not my function.
My function is to simply answer
your questions and tell you that I think
there are issues that you have to deal
with, and how you deal with them is of
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course strictly up to you.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Can Officer
Bleim come at us with something or other
after this is over?
After all, he has got child support
now. Could he come in with some kind
of a reason that --
MR. HAMILTON: No. Based on a
settlement with Pam? The answer is no,
unequivocal.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I am
concerned. This memo concerns me.
If in fact it is true, it concerns
me that we have two officers who would
make comments like this, but we don't
know this is true.
I'm more concerned about the impact
this memo would have on their careers
than I am about the repercussions on the
Village because this is like someone
whose son goes out and says something,
makes an imprudent statement.
Are the parents always held
responsible for what is said? And that
is the analogy here.
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We cannot control what our people
say, and if there was, in fact, some
truth to this, why wasn't something done
about it seven years ago?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Well, you
know, Mr. Boggess, part of what you say
is part of the reason that Internal
Affairs investigations are kept
separate.
It is the idea that if you are
accused of something and a thorough
investigation is conducted and it is not
substantiated, that shouldn't go in your
personnel file. That shouldn't
prejudice your career in the future.
The problem is, this incident
probably took place. The problem is,
for some reason --for whatever
reason --
MR. HAMILTON: Nobody
investigated it.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: nobody
investigated it, and nobody took action
on it then.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: But there was
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an investigation.
MR. HAMILTON: No.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS:
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS:
No.
It says right
there at the very beginning, "At
Cooper's suggestion," --
MR. HAMILTON: Let me tell you a
little bit about this internal
investigation file, okay?
MR. WEISS: Was the internal
investigation file opened up on this
incident, or was it on another incident?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No. It was
on another incident.
MR. HAMILTON: Another incident.
MR. WEISS: There was never an
internal investigation file opened up on
this case?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No, and if
you sit and read this internal
investigation file, it's hard for
me --and I sat and read it one
afternoon to even begin to tell you
exactly what the investigation was
about.
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But this one said this one said
this thing, but this one said this one
said that thing, and somebody else threw
in something else, and this memo lands
in there, and --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Hearsay, as you see
on television.
MR. WEISS: It had nothing to do
with this.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No, no.
This was like tossed in there
MR. WEISS: What was the highest
level of command that this memo got to?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It is copied
to the Chief.
MR. WEISS: Did you take Vaquero's
deposition?
MR. HAMILTON: Vaquero was not a
witness until recently.
MR. WEISS: So are you going to
take it?
MR. HAMILTON: He was added, so we
will take him.
My function is not to take
depositions or preserve testimony of
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people who aren't listed.
So now that they have listed him,
he will be taken, but Vaquero was not
somebody I wanted to preserve testimony
on.
MR. WEISS: Somebody asked, John,
what decision you need a make the
insurance company sort of has an
independent, somewhat independent,
decision
MR. HAMILTON: I can tell you that
the insurance company's thinking in
t~rms of their exposure and the value of
this case --to them --is somewhere in
the vicinity of $30,000.
They probably would --I am not
going to say probably. They may come up
with some more money in order to avoid
trying this case, but that is the range
in which they are thinking.
So there is a shortfall between
what the insurance company thinks is the
value of the case to them and what I
believe it would take to settle this
case with the Plaintiff.
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COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I will go for
17 thousand, which is the back way.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Let me ask you
a silly question.
You know, we're talking about a
hundred thousand, two hundred thousand.
Are you authorized by the insurance
company to negotiate a private
settlement with this individual upwards
of whatever number?
MR. WEISS: $30,000.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I'm a little
bit confused on this.
MR. HAMILTON: All right. Well,
let me tell you what I am authorized to
do.
I am authorized to represent you
pursuant to the insurance policy.
I am authorized to make offers to
the Plaintiff, based on the money that
the insurance company is willing to pay,
okay?
However, there are cases in which I
become involved in which there is an
interest over and above the insurance
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company's interest, a private interest
of the Defendant to settle the matter
over and above what the insurance
company is willing to pay.
In the event that that causes a
conflict --I don't think it does in
this case because it is not a matter of
the insurance company having coverage
for the aspect of the case and saying,
"I am not going to pay because I
don't think there is coverage," and
then me coming to you and saying, "Do
you want to pay instead of the insurance
company?" Because then there is a
dispute of coverage.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: There are other
concerns here that have nothing to do
with the compensatory damages and have
nothing to do with the insurance
company's obligation to pay that you .may
wish to consider and make a contribution
toward a settlement.
I don't know if you are or not. I
am not asking for one. I am saying you
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ought to consider it.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: What has the
insurance company authorized you as an
upward number in settlement?
MR. HAMILTON: Right now, I believe
that the last thing they were willing to
offer was $30,000 in settlement of this
case.
Understand that they are looking at
their damages. Their damages that
they are looking are potentially 17
thousand some-odd dollars in back pay,
$50,000 cap on compensatory and punitive
damages for the sexually hostile
environment. So that is 67,000, plus
attorney's fees.
I don't know. He hasn't done that
much in this case, but maybe his charges
are high. How do I know? But let's
assume that his attorney's fees are
$30,000. I don't know.
MR. WEISS: Plus another 20 for you
for trying the case 15.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, no. I'm
saying $30,000 in attorney's fees. So
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we are at $97,000, --
MR. WEISS: Plus what they have to
pay you.
MR. HAMILTON: Plus what they have
to pay me for what I consider to be
probably --
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: That makes
it an even hundred.
MR. HAMILTON: That's five or six
dollars a day, plus what they have to
pay me for the three or four days that I
may be in trial, plus getting ready.
I would imagine that that would be
somewhere in the vicinity of about 15 to
18 thousand dollars total.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: So that would
be about $120,000.
MR. WEISS: That's what their
exposure is.
MR. HAMILTON: Their exposure is a
hundred and ten, a hundred and fifteen,
somewhere around there.
I mean, I could write them down,
but these numbers are --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Okay, just --
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MR. HAMILTON: His attorney's fees
and my attorney's fees are the only
things that are really questionable in
terms of what --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And out-of-pocket
cost.
MR. HAMILTON: Out-of-pocket cost,
but there really aren't any experts or
anything.
It's a matter of we have sent out
subpoenas, so they have incurred those
costs already.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: How long
are we with this insurance company,
Carole, approximately?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: About three
years.
This is one of the few policies
left anywhere, frankly, on the face of
the earth that covers you for this type
of suit. I don't know how much longer
it will.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: What is our
approximate premium?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I don't know
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off the top of my head.
MR. HAMILTON: So they are not out
of the ballpark already in their first
attempt to settle this case in terms of
their exposure and the potential to win
the case, I don't think. They are not
out of the ballpark.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: You say 30,
but we just added up $115,000.
MR. HAMILTON: Now, wait a minute.
They don't consider what they have
to pay to defend the case. That is
defense dollars.
You have to understand how
insurance companies work. There's
defense dollars and indemnity dollars.
Defense dollars are dollars they
pay to defend and the costs of the
defense of the case, which comes out of
the X pocket.
Indemnity dollars is the amount of
money they can pay based on what they
think their exposure in the case is.
I have insurance companies that I
represent that pay me a hundred thousand
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dollars to go try a case that they have
a million dollars exposure on and come
out and get a zero verdict, and it comes
out of X pocket.
So what I am telling you is their
exposure dollars in terms of what they
are going to have to pay --
It's seventeen-fifty plus
attorney's fees for the other side. So
you are looking at --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: 65, say, 70
or 80.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: 67, plus 30,
$97,000.
MR. HAMILTON: Now, you are also
talking maximum on 50.
First of all, there are two
separate issues here. There is denial
of the promotion and the sexually
hostile environment.
I think as a matter of law, they
are not entitled to the sexually hostile
environment.
So that's $50,000 right off that
figure. So you are looking at $17,000,
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plus attorney's fees.
So their exposure may be $47,000.
If you figure they have got a better
than 50 percent chance of winning,
$30,000 is a pretty good offer for them.
MR. WEISS: Let me just try to do
this.
Let's assume for a second that
whatever insurance policy we have --and
I don't have to argue with them about
coverage --that whatever insurance
policy we have covers all the damages in
this case.
In other words, win, lose or draw,
it's
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It is paid
for by them.
MR. WEISS: Paid for, and you guys
walk away.
And the question is, given that
scenario given that it is not going
to cost you any money one way or
another --is there something else here
for the Village that the Mayor was
talking about or that John and Carole
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have been talking about that is worth
the Village to pay some amount of money
to have this officer, who has this sort
of negative attitude, who doesn't get
along, who causes aggression and the
other things that are talked about in
the memo --having nothing to do with
really this case, is there something
that the Village would like to pay to
get rid of that? Is that worth
something? Do you want to do that?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Richard,
MR. WEISS: And the second issue
is, is there something that it is worth
the Village to pay to not have any
potential for this exposure?
I mean, those are really the two
narrow questions for the Village to
decide, and if we are assured by the
insurance company that we are covered,
those are the really the only two issues
for you.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: What would it
cost, assuming something happens and I
have grounds to terminate a police
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officer, you know the hearing procedure
and such that we have to go through.
Ballpark, what do you think it
might cost to prepare and do that?
MR. WEISS: $5,000.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: What did it
cost for Moruzzi?
MR. WEISS: I would say $5,000.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Okay.
MR. WEISS:
federal case.
$5,000 case.
You know, it's not a
It's a hearing. It's a
MR. HAMILTON: Let me tell you,
also, from an economic point of view
since I like to look at things from an
economic point of view.
You are also talking about the fact
that you have an obligation right now to
Pam Robinson every year to pay her
$43,000 a year.
Don't forget that.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
MR. HAMILTON: That doesn't
necessarily mean that it has to be a
factor in your consideration, but if you
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do effectuate a settlement in this case,
as a part of that settlement, Pam agrees
to resign.
You also eliminate your obligation
to pay 43,000 some-odd dollars plus
benefits.
MR. WEISS: But we would replace
her
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Well, there is
no savings there.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We have to pay it
to another officer.
MR. HAMILTON: Not necessarily at
that level.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: You're right.
Initially, there wouldn't be that
same cost.
MR. WEISS: But those are really
the two issues.
Assuming that the insurance company
is going to pay, one, do you want to pay
some money to get rid of Pam?
Number two, is it worth it to the
Village to pay some money to do this?
And assuming that you don't want to
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do either one of those, are your
instructions to try to the case?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I don't think
we have the right to sit here and say we
are going to spend tax dollars for hush
money, which is basically what we would
be doing.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I disagree.
I don't agree with that posture.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I just think
we are buying somebody off if we do
that.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I look at it
differently.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: We may be
financially resolving what may well end
up being a long term problem.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Could be.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Because whether we
win or we lost, we have got to remember
that she is a police officer here.
Whether we win or we lose, she is still
on the police force.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: This
individual is not a team player.
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MR. HAMILTON: We have all agreed
that this information is already
Disseminated, and the reasonable
possibility is --as expressed by
Carole is that it is in the hands of
people who would like to use it or will
use it against you in whatever way.
So with regards to the issue
concerning hush money, you are not going
to hush anybody up. the information is
already gone.
That's not going to stop --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: No . That will
still come out.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: When the
Herald gets this, can it be
substantiated? The answer is no. They
will not print it.
And who cares if they do?
MR. HAMILTON: The point is that we
all know that i t is already
disseminated. So you are not stopping
anything from be i ng disseminated.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: You're not stopping
that.
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The only thing you are stopping is
the employment of Pam Robinson.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: And again,
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And the animosity
among the force.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Couch it in
terms of an individual who is a licensed
police officer, who with a letter of
recommendation will go to a different
departments and pursue her interests in
a different department, in a different
environment.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: In a different
community.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Right.
She is certainly welcome to
continue in this department, win or
lose, but think about it down the road
and long term.
Is this going to be a team player?
And the answer is, no way.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No.
MR. WEISS: When you say team
player, you mean in terms of
police work?
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COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Correct,
correct.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: She is not
now.
MR. WEISS: Let me just give you
one other way to look at it.
Let's assume that Chief Treppeda
was really unhappy with her performance
and she really wasn't doing a good job,
for whatever reason.
We would say bring disciplinary
action, and let's assume that the PBA
was going to defend this case, and we
were trying to terminate her.
Would it be a case that you said,
it's worth X to get rid of this officer,
and let's say we have sat around and
said we don't have that great of a case,
but we maybe can win it.
What would you pay, if anything, to
get rid of this police officer?
You know, if she is not a good
police officer and she is not going to
do well, then at some point perhaps she
gets terminated for --
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Except you
know as w~ll as I do that terminating
police officer is tough.
MR. WEISS: I agree.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Impossible.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK:
find other reasons.
She will
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It's real
tough.
a
It is not like we can say, you are
just not a great police officer.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: You can't. You
can't.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It's tough.
MR. WEISS: Well, you can, but the
problem is, you have to have
identifiable incidents --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Very difficult --
grounds.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: We have all
been through this with Mr. Moruzzi.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: It's very
difficult.
MR. WEISS: How hard that was.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It was so
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obvious there were problems. Yet it was
impossible to terminate --with the
difficulty you had in getting it worked
out.
MR. WEISS: Was Moruzzi the one
with the alcohol?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Yes, which was
a clearcut problem.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: And we had
another problem with Glenn.
MR. WEISS: Grundy.
Now, Moruzzi, we won that case, and
that was the end of it.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: We won the
case with Moruzzi.
MR. WEISS: But I had to try the
case, and when --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: And add the
element --and let's be very frank --of
a different gender in this particular
case, this is even a more difficult
situation is that we could wrap
ourselves into later on.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, I can
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guarantee you if you want any
guarantees --I can guarantee you win,
lose or draw, if a time came when you
had to make a decision to terminate Pam
Robinson, you would be facing a
retaliation lawsuit, in a heartbeat.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: All over again.
MR. HAMILTON: I have to tell you
that right now. You would.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I have made my
decision personally on what we should
do.
Again, I will couch it --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Tell us about
it.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I will couch
it in terms of not wanting to spend
money, but reality is that this a
magnifying glass. We live in a very
small environment here, with a very
small Police Department.
I think that it doesn't serve
anybody's interests to try and protect
the City by defending the case, having
this officer back in the department, and
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having to tread on eggshells for the
rest of your life.
It is not going to work. It is not
going to work --probably not.
MR. HAMILTON: And if they win and
get the equitable relief, she will be a
Sergeant.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: And the next
time she is on a call and something
isn't go i ng exactly right and "tensions
escalate" when she is responding
which I am reading from the memo and
an officer asks her to step aside and
takes over, we are in trouble. We are
in trouble again.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And if she wins,
she is working at a higher salary.
MR. HAMILTON: About $7,000.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I know we
really don't want to give any --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Over a period of
years, plus benefits.
MR. WEISS: If we enter into some
sort of settlement agreement with her or
something like that, it has got to go
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through the Council, and it has got to
be approved at a Council meeting.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: At a Council
meeting, of course.
How do we go about this? Is this
just a round table discussion? Do we
make a motion?
What do we have to do?
MR. WEISS: It seems to me that the
first step is in terms of the Village is
to see whether this case can be settled
by the insurance company.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: By settled, I
think that includes resignation.
MR. HAMILTON: My comment to that
is, in my opinion, it cannot and I will
just tell you right now.
I think that the amount of money
that they are going to be looking for is
going to be in excess of what the
insurance company believes the value of
this case is because the Plaintiff will
be putting a premium on the issue of
resignation, and the insurance company
is going to say, "That is not our
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problem."
MR . WEISS: John --and I don't ask
you this in any
MR. HAMILTON: We can settle this
cas~ and give her money without the
·resignation and pay X amount of dollars,
which they will be willing to do.
But when the price goes up because
of resignation, they are not going to be
willing to do that.
MR. WEISS: I mean --and John, I'm
not asking this in any sort of a
negative way.
At some point, the split of the
money becomes --there becomes sort of a
conflict.
I mean, at some point, the
insurance company and our interest of
the Village is to try to resolve this
case, get rid of the officer --if that
is what the --at the least cost to the
Village.
The insurance company would like to
settle the case, do their obligation.
But the question is: I am
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wondering whether in order not to deal
with that conflict, I wonder whether it
would be possible for you to get two
numbers from the Plaintiff --
MR. HAMILTON: Absolutely.
MR. WEISS: so that it is
quantified for them, and so that we
don't end up --
MR. HAMILTON: Absolutely. I can
do that.
My initial thrust of this in
getting one number was because I felt
that you all would perceive that there
is a problem, and that I felt that you
had to know what the cost was going to
be. I had to know what the outlay was
--and I knew it was going to be some
fantastic amount that nobody would agree
to.
I was right, but I clearly will get
two numbers.
MR. WEISS: In other words, a
settlement figure for settling the case.
You stay on the force, you settle the
case.
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MR. HAMILTON: Now, let me tell you
a little settlement strategy from my
point of view, and that doesn't mean
that I am right. I'm just giving you my
thoughts.
Right now, he is faced with a
unified offer. By that, he is only
getting $30,000 unified meaning there
is only one attorney, one offer. Nobody
is distinguishing between who it is
coming from --
MR. WEISS: Village and insurance
company.
MR. HAMILTON: and on what
basis it is being paid.
It has been my experience in the
past that when you bifurcate your offers
from different people, the price goes up
because now, you have got two payors and
one payee.
Mr. Cornell is not stupid. Mr.
Cornell is going to know that there are
separate interests here.
He has already mentioned it. He
said, "Well, you know, John, you can't
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settle the case unless you get the party
involved because this case has more
value than simply the compensatory
damages. The insurance company is going
to pay."
He already knows. I mean, he is
not a stupid guy.
If you begin to telegraph to him
what comes from whom, he is going to try
and negotiate the price up on your side,
I'm just telling you from a
negotiating standpoint I believe that to
be true, so
MR. WEISS: Well, you can just ask
him
MR. HAMILTON: So what I would
suggest I mean, what the insurance
company is going to pay is based on what
I think the potential exposure is and
what they in their own mind are willing
to pay before they go to trial on this.
That is going to be their contribution.
I have already suggested to them
what I think the value of the case is
from that point of view, and they
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understand.
I have outlined what the damages
are, and they have made their decision.
They may come up with more money.
I would suggest to you that you
make a decision as to what you are
willing to pay.
It may not be enough. He may stick
to above a hundred thousand dollars and
you · all just tell him, "Sorry. We are
not willing to pay that kind of money
and neither is the insurance company."
But I would suggest that we
negotiate this --at least in the
beginning --with one demand --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: One, correct.
MR. HAMILTON: --from him and not
distinguish between who is paying what
and what is for what.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Yes, definitely.
MR. WEISS: I agree with that, and
I wasn't suggesting that you and I would
both negotiate with him.
What I was suggesting was that the
Council needs to quantify what it costs.
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MR. HAMILTON: The Council needs to
know what the bottom line is, the
difference between what the insurance
company is willing to pay and what the
demand is. That is what you need to
know.
What I am going to need in order to
do that is to find out what amount of
money I can negotiate with and find out
what that bottom line is.
I mean, it's a matter of offer and
counteroffer, and I would suggest
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I think Mr.
Blank made the right suggestion before
about 50 percent --50 percent right,
50 percent wrong.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: As long as
you thought we had a 50 percent chance,
I would be willing to settle for the 50
percent on the bottom line number.
And then we can negotiate with the
insurance company whoever pays what
and
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I don't like
that.
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If they say, we will pay 30, and we
just pay whatever . I don't like that.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: First of all,
if the amount of money that we
contribute has to come before a Council
meeting, which is a public meeting, they
know how much we are going to pay.
I would like to get a settlement
amount
MR. HAMILTON: Before you do that.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: --before we have
our Council meeting.
Then we individually know what we
have to pay. We know how much the
insurance company will pay. We know
what our portion of it will be.
But to bring it out and argue this
situation at a public meeting,
MR. HAMILTON: I agree.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: No. We are
not arguing at a public meeting.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Do you have an
idea what that number would be?
MR. HAMILTON: It is going to be
more than $50,000. It may be less than
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a hundred.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Is it more
than a hundred?
MR. HAMILTON: I don't know.
Right now, --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: At the
mediation, the insurance company offered
30 thousand or initially offered I
think 20 or 25, as I understand it.
The attorney for Pam came back
with, "We are sticking to our guns. We
w~nt two hundred thousand."
There was a little further
discussion. Eventually, the last offer
made by the insurance company was 30
thousand. They said something, "Like
have a nice day."
A conversation or something was
said to the effect of, "How would you
feel about an offer around a hundred
thousand," and --
MR. HAMILTON: The mediator went to
the Plaintiff's counsel and said, "What
would your attitude be if the offer
were a hundred thousand," just as
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going --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: As being a
mediator.
MR. HAMILTON: As being a mediator.
My understanding from talking to
Bill because I wasn't there --my
understanding from talking to Bill was,
"Well, we are certainly not going to
take $50,000, and there is no present
offer on the table in that amount. So
we are not going to respond to it," type
attitude .
Well, that kind of response always
suggests consideration to me. I mean,
if I were going to be the Plaintiff's
counsel and I was~'t going to take a
hundred thousand dollars, I'd say,
"Ain't enough. I'm not even responding
to that. I will drop down to a hundred
and eighty from two hundred, but you are
going to have to come up with more than
that to negotiate above a hundred."
So my position would be that there
is a chance to settle the case for a
hundred thousand or below, based on what
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I understand his responses to be.
I may find out that I am in error,
and he wants no less than a hundred and
twenty-five or a hundred and twenty, or
whatever, and the insurance company
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Is he on a
contingency basis?
MR. HAMILTON: His fees will be
given to him by the Court.
MR. WEISS: If he wins.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: If he wins. I
mean, in a settlement.
MR. HAMILTON: Oh, yes. His fees
are contingent upon winning.
Unless it's a settlement. A
settlement --
MR. WEISS: If he loses, he gets
nothing.
MR. HAMILTON: A settlement is
money in hand.
MR. WEISS: If he loses, he could
get nothing.
MR. HAMILTON: But understand that
a settlement also means whatever money
that is offered, he takes his fees out
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of that money.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: That's what I
meant.
He gets --what? --30 or 40
percent?
MR. HAMILTON: I would say he gets
33 and a third.
MR. WEISS: I think with a City,
it's limited to 25 percent.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I just feel
the need to say something on behalf of a
lot of the employees who kind of feel
embroiled and kind of caught in the
middle of all of us of this.
There is no joy in Mudville, no
matter what happens. I mean, there's a
lot of mixed feelings and obviously,
frankly, a lot of speculation and a lot
of rumor going on in the Police
Department right now.
Obviously, people know this suit is
pending. Whenever there is a lawsuit
pending, there is a possibility of
settlement.
Don't think that the Chief or
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myself or, frankly, any of the officers
who are involved are anxious to see you
guys write a check and just make this
thing go away.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: This sends a
bad signal.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It sends a
bad signal. It --
bad
MR. HAMILTON: That's the bad side.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It leaves a
taste in everybody's mouth if we
settle, but you know what?
If we still have the same old
problem, we still have the same old
problem. We are not any better off.
And God forbid, we lose this thing.
MR. HAMILTON: Actually, you are in
a worse position.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: God forbid.
MR. WEISS: And she is a Sergeant.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I mean, God
forbid we lose this thing.
There is no joy in Mudville.
MR. HAMILTON: It's not just that
she is a still a police officer, but she
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is a police officer who has brought and,
·1et's say, lost a sexual discrimination
suit.
Therefore, any actions taken with
respect to her --including
termination will be viewed in light
of her past history. So you are
actually in a worse position.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: And there are
a lot of officers who already feel that
she is being dealt with, with kid gloves
and too lightly because of the pending
litigation.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I mean, this
can't be the first Police Department to
have had a problem like this, and
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: --they can't
buckle every time an employee brings a
suit up like this.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: No, but you
know what? I have heard stories, and I
have heard officers make comments as
recently as a week or two ago in this
station --and they were another
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department located not too far away
that recently went through a sexual
discrimination, sexual harassment
lawsuit --and the officer did not
prevail.
Those officers were complaining
still that they still feel that this
officer is treated with --not subject
to the same rules that the rest of them
are and get a lot of privileges because
of that.
MR. WEISS: Andy, the answer to
your question is --and we represent
probably two dozen police departments,
and every City has got its own
philosophy.
Some cities, they don't care what
they do, like North Miami. They don't
care what the cost is.
If they think they are right, they
go to trial and we win or lose --and we
usually win --and if they think they
are wrong, they settle.
Other cities just don't want to go
through the emotional trouble of it, and
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most of the cases get settled.
There is sort of a philosophy in
each City that changes from time to
time, but there is no --I mean, we must
have 50 of these cases in the office
that we are handling.
Half of them, the City is
interested in trying. They always want
to resolve something some, and say,
"Just defend the case. We don~t
care what we pay you."
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And suppose we win?
Let's say the jury disregards hearsay,
and
MR. WEISS: Then you have got Pam
Robinson.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: But we still have
Pam Robinson.
MR. WEISS: And you've got Pam
Robinson, right.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: You've got her
now.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: That's right.
MR. WEISS: You asked me, and I am
just telling you that this happens all
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the time.
I am just trying to answer your
question.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I don't
perceive that we, as a municipality,
have done anything wrong in this case.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: It isn't a
question of right or wrong. It's a
question of dollars.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It's not a
question of right of wrong.
It is a question of whether or not
you want to sustain the publicity and
endure a trial, which you may possibly
win or may possibly lose.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Publicity does
not concern me.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: But you may
possibly win this trial, and you may
possibly lose this trial.
If you win this trial, the worst
case scenario is that you now have
Sergeant Robinson --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No, if we
lose.
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MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Excuse me,
if we lose. You're right.
If she wins, we have Sergeant
Robinson. We are paying out back pay.
We're compensating her attorney, et
cetera.
The best case scenario if we go to
trial is that we win, and Pam is still a
police officer here and we have got the
whole set of pending problems that I
think John has pretty well outlined for
us.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Yes, but --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: The other
option is --
MR. HAMILTON: Who is going to be
your Corporal the next time? Who is
going to be promoted to Corporal?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Who is going
to be the next detective? Who is going
to get the next bicycle assignment?
It goes on and on.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: It is Pam this
month. Who is it going to be next month
or next year?
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We have had a succession of
problems.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We will be setting
a precedent.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: That's right.
How did we sett l e Mrs. Levinson?
How was that finally resolved?
MS. SHEROQSE MORRIS: You all wrote
her a check.
Basically, there was an agreement
that she would no longer write harassing
letters, this, that and the other.
MR. WEISS: It was a settlement
agreement that was approved by the
Council.-
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Her and her
husband.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: And how much
was it?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I don't
recall.
I want to say it was thirteen
thousand or something like that?
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It wasn't lot of money.
MR. WEISS: No. It was
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Less.
MR. WEISS: It had to do with a
certain amount of back pay that we owed
her.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes. It was
severance pay.
MR. WEISS: Two or three months
months of pay. I remember the
discussion was about months of pay.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It wasn't a
tremendous amount of money.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: What about
Vaquero? Did we have any problems in
his termination?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Mr. Vaquero
legally resigned.
He did receive some severance pay
and his pension settlement and that was
that.
That was probably in part what
may have precipitated Sheila in some of
her letters. I don't know. Sheila may
have done that, anyway.
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MR. HAMILTON: That reminds me. Is
Pam entitled to anything upon
resignation? Let's say it's a legal
resignation.
MR. WEISS: No.
MR. HAMILTON: Is she entitled to
anything at all?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Pension? Oh,
no, no. She is
MR. WEISS: It is not a negotiating
point. She is entitled to it legally,
and she is vested in the pension plan.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, no. I am
trying to consider what she
a question of negotiation.
it's not
What I am concerned about is, what
has she got to gain with cash in her
pocket from taking this action?
I want to know all the parameters.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I would
venture that the money she would be
looking at from her pension plan and
I can play with that number and work on
it for you --would probably be in the
area of eighteen, twenty, twenty-five
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thousand dollars, $5,000, somewhere in
there.
MR. HAMILTON: So in addition to
whatever she would be offered or what
she is going to get, she would get
twenty grand
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Plus whatever
vacation time she may have.
MR. HAMILTON: --in her pocket.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: If you can get
those figures to us.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I believe
whatever she has paid into the pension
plan, plus the interest on it.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: Contributions by
anyone else? By you all?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: But we just
got our statements from the pension
plan.
Pam was hired six or eight months
after I was. Her initial salary was
much higher than mine. Mine's a little
higher than hers is now.
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I think my pension, if I looked at
my return of contributions, would be in
the area of about 18 now.
So I would imagine hers would be
somewhere in about the same area.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: About 20,
probably.
MR. HAMILTON: Don't forget, there
are lots of things to consider when
negotiating.
One is, she has just had a baby.
You really don 't know what her attitude
is about continuing employment.
You a r e operating i n a vacuum. She
may have made up her own mind that she
really wants to stay home for a period
of time, --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Right.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: and,
therefore, is looking for a fund of
money to allow her to do that and not
suffer a decrease in her lifestyle.
So my point is there are lots of
factors that you will probably never
know that can go into what the value of
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the case is for her.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: I can go to the
Plaintiff's counsel, and I can say, "I
want to tell you that the insurance
company is not impressed. I want to
tell you that I have spoken to the
Council, and they are not impressed, but
I have been asked to solicit a bottom
line demand because they are not going
to make an offer ·in a vacuum. They have
to know what it is," and see what I can
get him to say.
I think that sort of a negotiating
tool is usually not very successful
because there has to be then a quid pro
quo.
There has to be an offer because he
is not going to give you his bottom
line.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Naturally.
MR. HAMILTON: And that presents a
problem because in order to make an
offer above and above what the insurance
company is going to pay, you are going
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to have to get authority.
You have to get that number in your
hands, and that will probably be
MR. WEISS: John, one of the things
that we have used because of the
difficulty of dealing with a public
client is to say that it is difficult to
get these executive sessions together.
I don't have the ability to call
them on the phone and do that, and if
you want any sort of decent offer, you
have got to give me your bottom line.
These people are all busy. They
are working. They are involved in
different things. They are not going to
get together again.
So that may be a way --if you are
looking for some reason why --you know,
convince him that these people are just
not getting together again.
One is a realtor --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: We can get
closer to the 28th, too.
MR. HAMILTON: Let me say something
else, too.
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I know Ware Cornell. I have known
him for a period of years both
professionally and not professionally
somewhat socially many, many years ago.
ware is not a stupid person. Ware
has been puffing a lot in this case, by
taking the position that you are not
going to be able to overcome the impact
of this memo and that sort of thing.
But I think he was hurt
significantly by the presence of that
concerned citizen note, which clearly
can support the position that Pam is
part of a clique that is anti present
police administration.
Most people will understand clearly
that a Police Chief is not going to be
inclined to promote somebody when he has
got a right to :do so among the top three
candfdates, somebody who has a lot of
antipathy to his administration.
He has now gotten Officer Bleim to
say that --you have to know the context
of some of the evidence.
The Police Chief and your Deputy
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Chief are going to testify that Officer
Bleim approached them and asked them to
go out to lunch.
At that luncheon meeting, it was
Officer Bleim who brought up the
subject of that concerned citizen note
and said, "I want you to know that
I didn't have anything to do
with it, I didn't support it, but it was
a product of certain people and Pam did
read it, checked the statistics and
proofread it for accuracy, et cetera,
and it was disseminated ."
That is what the testimony will be
from our Chief and from his Deputy
Chief.
Bleim, when we took his deposition,
had a different recollection.
He recalled that the luncheon
meeting was called by the Chief and his
Deputy --not by his request --and he
said, "Pam didn't have anything to do
with it, and I didn't say that."
When cross examined about the fact
that, "Well, the Chief has a different
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recollection. Are you saying that the
Chief is wrong, his recollection is in
error," he said, "Well, I wouldn't say
that. I wouldn't want to dispute the
Chief. Maybe I did say that, but I
certainly don't recall saying it."
So he is riding the fence here.
One thing for us is that from a
sworn statement that we have taken from
Burke, Burke is going to say that, in
fact, what the Chief says happened
occurred.
I don't think we have much prqblem
with Bleim's bias, but the point being
that this is something that I think that
Ware did not anticipate.
I think it concerned him because it
certainly gives a legitimate basis upon
which the Chief could have made his
decision.
Therefore, I think that his opinion
of the case has decreased since he first
started.
Therefore, I think that his
evaluation is perhaps in a range that
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would make this case settleable at a
figure lower than a hundred thousand
dollars.
I am not certain of that, but I
think he should consider it.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We l l, that l etter
or memo or anonymous letter would
probably override the effects of the
hearsay on the other memo.
MR. HAMILTON: I think it certainly
provides a solid basis upon which the
Chief could have made his decision
with those people remaining.
I mean, people will understand that
the Chief is reluctant to promote people
to positions of authority in his force
that are working against him.
MR. WEISS: Can I --
MR. HAMILTON: Everybody is going
to understand that.
Then you get away from was she more
qualified? Was she less qualified? Did
she have more commendations? Did she
have less commendations?
You get to a real practical issue
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as to whether anybody in that position,
given the right to select two people,
would select the one that supports his
administration.
MR. WEISS: I really think that
MR. HAMILTON: I think there is a
real plus to that memo, and I think that
that has affected his evaluation.
So the two hundred is, I think, a
fantasy figure.
MR. WEISS: I think the bottom line
Here is --
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: I think you
are in the best position to be able to
know what to do.
We are not attorneys, and --
MR. WEISS: I really think the
bottom line here is that this discussion
really has nothing to do with this case
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Of course not.
MR. WEISS: This discussion
has to do with --the bottom line here
is: After John packs up and goes back,
do you want to have Pam or do you not
want to have Pam?
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COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Correct.
MR. WEISS: If you don't care about
having Pam, --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: We would
prefer not to.
MR. WEISS: If you prefer not to
have Pam here at the end of --
MR. HAMILTON: There is always a
cost.
MR. WEISS: Yes.
--not to have Pam, are you willing
to spend $50,000 to get rid of Pam? Are
you willing to spend $25,000 to get rid
of Pam?
Well, I hate to be talking like
this, but that's what this is.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I was
wondering how much the members of the
police force would contribute.
MR. WEISS: Chip in.
Well, that's the bottom line
because irrespective of the fact of the
memo, I was thinking first that maybe we
should push the issue of trying to get
the memorandum in or out, but it really
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doesn't matter.
MR. HAMILTON: No.
MR. WEISS: But the point is that
no matter what happens with this case,
You have to make a decision as to
whether you want to get rid of Pam or
not.
If you want to get rid of her,
then there is going to be
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: A cost of
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: We are too
nice a group of people in trying to
protect our own City, making our own
Police Department a happy place for
people to work in, our municipal area.
Here we are trying to protect our
small Police Department from any
individual who sees things in a
different light than the majority,
and I think that's pretty sad.
In a lot of other departments, they
would swallow this person up, and that
would be the end of her or him, or
whoever it may be.
MR. WEISS: When you say swallow
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them up, --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: They would go
about their business, and that would be
it.
You know, I vacillate with this,
obviously. I want to see her go --
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: We would
prefer.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: We would
prefer to have a nice arrangement where
all would be happy, where she would
go elsewhere for emp l oyment.
MR. WEISS: Is it worth $10,000 for
you guys to get rid of Pam?
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Are you
looking for a number?
MR. WEISS: Yes. That's what this
is about.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: I would
even give her a recommendation.
that.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: She wants
MR. WEISS: Is it worth $10,000?
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Yes.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Yes.
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COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Well, I said
17 before, so I guess --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Yes.
MR. WEISS: I'm just trying to get
a number here.
Is it worth $20,000 for her to go?
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Yes.
MR. WEISS: Maddy?
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: I don't
want her, period.
MR. WEISS: Mayor?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Yes.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: She'll be a
sore tooth.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I'm holding
out at 17 at the present time.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: I think it is
worth much more to see her go.
MR. WEISS: Is it worth $30,000 to
see her go?
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I don't want
to get into this game until we find out
what
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: We are talking
amongst ourselves.
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MR. HAMILTON: I agree.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I am not going
to say, hey, I will spend twenty-two
fifty or 35 thousand --
MR. WEISS: Until we see what
they want.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Right.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Until we see
what the insurance company is going to
do.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Maybe the
strategy we need to take is, we had an
Executive Session today, that you have
some feeling now for the City or what is
going on here.
We do have a Council meeting next
week. This isn't set to go to trial
until the 28th.
If we absolutely had to, if there
was a real valid and viable settlement
offer on the table, we could manage to
have another Executive Session prior to
the 28th, but we can't have two or
three. We need to get to a viable
offer.
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MR. HAMILTON: Let me ask some
practical questions here.
Let's assume --I am now
negotiating with him. I need to know
what kind of lead time, what kind of
effort is involved in getting an
approval of whatever money you decide to
offer in this case.
And secondly, assuming that is not
accepted, how difficult it would be to
go back to the till if there is more?
And let me tell you why
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Our Council
meeting is next Tuesday at 9:30.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, that is next
Tuesday at 9:30, but what about another
Council meeting? How long does it take
to
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Can this be
done in Executive Session, or would this
need to be done at a full meeting?
MR. WEISS: Well, first of all, I
think the answer to your question is
that it is very difficult to start
That's why I suggested what I
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sugge sted
MR. HAMILTON: I need to know from
you
MR. WEISS: It's very difficult
from a City's point of view --and it is
not also sort of appropriate from a
City's point o f view --but it is
difficult to start getting involved
in
I mean, we can't call these people
on the phone, they have got to come in
from their jobs, they don't get paid
for this, and it's difficult.
I think that this guy should get
one shot.
MR. HAMILTON: I am thinking more
of you than I am of him.
I am trying to make sure that
I understand what is the available out
there and what can be done so that when
I talk to him --
I know what I am going to say to
him already. My issue is your i nterests
and the parameters of what you can do.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Richard,
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could a settlement discussion be an
Executive Session?
MR. WEISS: What we can do is, we
can agree upon what we are going to
offer in terms of settlement discussion.
Then once an agreement is approved,
we can --
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Vote on it at
Council.
MR. WEISS: We can vote on it in a
Council meeting.
I want to check the Statute as to
whether it even needs to go back to
Council because that's that new section
of the statute.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: Maybe it
doesn't have to.
MR. WEISS: But you need another
meeting like this.
MR. HAMILTON: Well, I can tell you
right now that I don't --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: We need
probably five to seven days to put
together another meeting like this.
MR. WEISS: Not in terms of
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legalities, but only in terms of
people's schedules.
MR. HAMILTON: I don't want any --
I mean, you can't do it now, but even in
seven days, I am not looking for an
amount of money, nor am I going to
suggest to him that you have an idea of
what kind of money you are going to
offer.
What I am going to tell him when I
call him up is that I have had a
meeting --I have sat in a meeting
and I am going to tell him that first of
all, you know what the insurance
company's altitude is. They are
negative about this case in terms of
the value of this case.
Number two, I sat in the meeting
and although I can't discuss what went
on, I will tell you that there was a lot
of resistance to what they felt was
paying for this matter, first of all,
because the insurance company has the
obligation to pay whatever damages.
If you go to trial, they know the
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insurance company is going to pay it.
So you are really asking them to
pay money over and above what they don't
have an obligation to pay in settlement
of this case. So that is the first
negative.
The second negative is that they
think it may set a bad precedent. They
believe the case is defensible after
they heard all of this and they are not
happy about setting a precedent whereby
someone can make a claim that they don't
think is valid and paying to have that
claim go away.
They understand the realities of
the world . They will consider taking a
request for monies to settle this case,
but .you'd better make it a bottom line
because one, there is no time --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: One shot.
MR. HAMILTON: Two, it's an one
shot deal.
You better really come to some
grips as to what you are going to want
because you are only going to have one
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chance.
It is not like you can call a
session and approve it because once they
ask for money, it is either going to be
approved or disapproved, period.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Right.
MR. HAMILTON: And you are not
going to have a second chance. So you
better get very serious very quick, and
leave it at that
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: I would
agree with that philosophy.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: No.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: No question
about it. They have got to come up with
a number.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Right.
Frankly, right now, I can't tell
you which way I would go on this thing
because I am very reluctant to pay money
this way.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Jim, we are
all reluctant.
We have got to find out what he can
do, period.
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COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: By all means,
let's find out.
MR. HAMILTON: He is not going to
want to bid against himself, but I'm
going to have to tell him that this is
an unusual situation.
That is, you are not dealing with
an insurance company. You are not
dealing with a phone call where I can
pick up and go back and forth.
You are not even dealing with
compensatory damages here. You are not
talking about an insurance company's
exposure· or their exposure in terms of
monetary damages. They are not going to
have to pay a dime, no matter what
happens in this case.
You are asking basically for them
to consider terminating Pam's employment
with them for reasons unassociated with
their exposure in this case.
They are not really inclined to do
that, but they will consider it, but you
better get real fast and you've got one
shot.
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COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: What
happens --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And remind him that
in addition to whatever the settlement
is, that she still has the pension
amount. She still has that coming, and
she should be satisfied.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: Give her
one number, and that's it.
MR. WEISS: Carole should work that
out, in terms of her holidays,
vacations, comp time, whatever money she
is
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I can go
ahead and work out those numbers.
That's no problem.
MR. HAMILTON: I am going to tell
him right now, and for at least this, I
want to see if I can get an agreement
because he is going to explore
parameters.
I get the impression from what you
all have said that, assuming the
insurance company stays at $30,000
let's make that assumption, which may
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not be a correct assumption --but
assuming the insurance company stays at
$30,000 in what they are willing to
offer in this case, there is
absolutely no desire to get to the
hundred thousand dollar mark.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: No.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: And if you
think they are cheap, --
MR. HAMILTON: Madam Mayor, am I
correct in that assessment?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Yes.
MR. HAMILTON: Because what I want
to say to Mr. Cornell is, if you are
talking about a six figure amount to
settle this case, forget it.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It is not
there.
MR. HAMILTON: Don't even give us
an offer. We are not interested.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: Because--.
we have, so walk away.
MR. HAMILTON: Is there an
agreement to that?
Assuming the insurance company
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stays at 30 thousand, that they are not
willing to pay more than that to settle
this case, that would mean that the
contribution from you to get to a
six figure amount would be $70,000.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: No way.
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: A little
steep.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: No, because if the
insurance company pays 30 and she gets
approximately 20 out of her pension, she
has got 50 right there.
And then if we add something to it,
she has --
MR. HAMILTON: Now, there is a
variable here. There is a variable in
the sense that if I go to the insurance
company --which I will do, so that you
all understand that one of the first
things that I am going to do
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We need to know.
MR. HAMILTON: is to pick up
the phone and say, they are not
interested in paying lot of money in
this case.
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I am going to solicit a demand from
the Plaintiff's attorney. I am going to
tell him forget a hundred thousand
dollars.
But if you all are willing to come
up from the 30, I need to know now.
I need to know if you are going to
pay 40 or 45 or 50 to settle this case
because if they are, then --
MAYOR SPIEGEL: We know where we
stand.
MR. HAMILTON: You know where you
stand.
So I will do that, and I will come
to you with that.
My impression is they are not
willing to come up much over the 30 that
they have offered.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: Well, I will
tell you what.
Let the courts do their damndest,
and let the Miami Herald do what they
want to do before I will go along with a
$70,000 payment.
Then I would really have to be
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ashamed.
MR. HAMILTON: Okay. Well, I need
to know the parameters so I can tell
him.
That makes it clear to me, okay?
And I think that is what we ought to
tell him, flat out.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: How do you
feel, Estelle?
MAYOR SPIEGEL: A reasonable
amount, yes, because whether we go to
Court or we don't go to Court, that memo
is going to be in the file for anybody
to bring up.
MR. HAMILTON: Correct.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: At any time.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And if we don't
make a big deal over it and we just say
it doesn't mean anything, it never came
to fruition, Internal Affairs never did
anything so we are not concerned because
maybe it's hearsay.
MR. HAMILTON: It happened eight
years ago, almost.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: But maybe
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that is something that we need to
basically say to Ware Cornell.
Look, the bottom line is it's
there for everybody, and if your client
doesn't use it, it's only worth a
certain amount of money to us because
you know what? Somebody else will.
MR. HAMILTON: That is exactly what
I am going to tell him.
I am going to tell him that this
threat of bad publicity and
everything --
MS.-SHEROUSE MORRIS: Already
exists.
MR. HAMILTON:
affect them because
doesn't even
COUNCILMAN HIRSCHL: We don't care.
MR. HAMILTON: Their comment was
not that they don't care, but
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: It already
exists.
MR. HAMILTON: they know that it
exists, they know that it is a public
record, they know it's in the hands of
people who do not have any love for the
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present administration, that would be
willing to do anything to make them
look bad.
Their assumption is that the memo
is going to get out regardless of what
happens in this case. So you can forget
about that.
COUNCILMAN BOGGESS: I'd like to
raise one more question.
Should the contents of the memo,
should this be pursued -at this point?
Should this be finalized?
.MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I don't know
if you can, Richard.
MR. HAMILTON: I think this is an
issue for another meeting and not in the
context of this discussion with me.
I really do, and I'm not quite sure
that you really want to----
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: I don't think
you can.
MR. HAMILTON: --talk about this
in this meeting right now.
I would suggest to you that,
because of the litigation, that this is
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something that you may take up at
another time.
I will tell you that it's an eight
year old, unsubstantiated charge that
was withdrawn by the person who made it.
For the record, that is the way it
exists at the present time.
MAYOR SPIEGEL: And remind him of
that.
MR. WEISS: Was the memo withdrawn,
or was the I.A. investigation pursuant
to which the memo was found withdrawn?
What was withdrawn? I thought it
was the I.A. investigation that --
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: The whole
thing.
MR. WEISS: Because the memo wasn't
withdrawn.
MS. SHEROUSE MORRIS: Oh, no.
There is a statement --a signed thing
in there, and I don't have it in front
of me --by Moruzzi stating that he
withdraws his complaint
MR. HAMILTON: No. It was a
statement that Moruzzi withdrew the
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complaint with respect to that.
MR. WEISS: Oh, with respect to
that memo?
MR. HAMILTON: Yes.
ASSISTANT MAYOR BLANK: I would
rather reserve decision until you come
back.
MR. HAMILTON: Oh, sure.
MR. WEISS: We need now to go back
into a public meeting.
MR. HAMILTON: I just want to say
thank you for listening to me.
(Thereupon, the meeting was
concluded at 6:15 o'clock p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF FLORIDA)
) ss.
COUNTY OF DADE)
I, CAROLE BERNARD, a Notary Public in and
for the State of Florida, do hereby certify that
I reported the foregoing Executive Session at the
time .and place hereinabove set forth; and that
the foregoing pages numbered from 1 to 163,
inclusive, constitute a true and correct
transcription of my shorthand report of the
meeting.
WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL in the City of
Miami, Dade County, Florida, this 15th day of
February, 1994.
CAROLE BERNARD
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