HomeMy Public PortalAbout2016-12-16 AttorneyClient Bal Harbour Shops LLLP CASE16-5646CA231
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BAL HARBOUR VILLAGE
ATTORNEY/CLIENT SESSION
IN THE MATTER OF BAL HARBOUR SHOPS, LLLP v.
14 BAL HARBOUR VILLAGE, et al
15 CASE NUMBER: 16-5646 CA 23
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BAL HARBOUR VILLAGE HALL
655 96th STREET
BAL HARBOUR, FLORIDA 33154
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 16, 2016
8:12 a.m. -8:49 a.ro.
Taken before Mary G. Stephenson, FPR, Notary
Public for the State of Florida
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 COUNCILMEMBERS:
3 GABRIEL GROISMAN, MAYOR
SETH E. SALVER, ASSISTANT MAYOR
4 DAVID ALBAUM, COUNCILMAN
PATRICIA COHEN, COUNCILWOMAN
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JEFFREY FREIMARK, COUNCILMAN
VILLAGE MANAGER:
JORGE M. GONZALEZ
VILLAGE ATTORNEY:
WEISS SEROTA HELFMAN
PASTORIZA COLE & BONISKE, P.A.
BY: RICHARD JAY WEISS, ESQ.
VILLAGE CLERK:
JOSEPH SEROTA, ESQ.
SUSAN TREVARTHEN, ESQ.
JUSTIN LUGER, ESQ.
DWIGHT S. DANIE
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(Present during public session only.)
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1 Thereupon, the following proceedings were had:
2 MAYOR GROISMAN: Let's get started. I call
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this meeting to order.
Do the roll call.
MR. DANIE: Roll call.
Mayor Groisman.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Here.
MR. DANIE: Assistant Mayor Salver.
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: Here.
MR. DANIE: Councilman Albaum.
COUNCILMAN ALBAOM: Here.
MR. DANIE: Councilwoman Cohen.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Here.
MR. DANIE: Councilman Freimark.
COUNCILMAN FREIMARK: Here.
MR. DANIE: We have a quorum.
(Thereupon, Mr. Danie left the room.)
MAYOR GROISMAN: The time is now 8:12.
We are about to have an attorney/client
session in accordance with Florida Statute 286.011
regarding the litigation styled Bal Harbour Shops,
LLLP versus Bal Harbour Village and Patricia
Cohen, Case Number 16-5646 CA 23.
The session is estimated to last 30 minutes
and the following people will be in attendance at
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this meeting: Myself, Mayor Groisman, Assistant
Mayor Seth Salver, Councilman Jeff Freimark,
Councilman David Albaum, Councilwoman Patricia
Cohen, Village Manager Jorge Gonzalez, Village
Attorneys Richard Weiss, Joe Serota, Susan
Trevarthen and Justin Luger.
These proceedings will be recorded by a
certified court reporter and, at the conclusion of
all litigation discussed, the transcript will be
made part of the public record.
All those individuals who I have not named
should leave the room at this time.
There is nobody to leave. No one else is
here.
Let's get to the session. Go ahead.
MR. SEROTA: As I stated at our last
executive session for the new council people,
understand that we are here to discuss, according
to 286.011 of the Florida Statute, settlement
negotiations, litigation expenditures.
At the end of this, whatever we say will be
made public when the case is over.
This case that we are going to talk about
first stems from a public records request that was
made on February 22, 2016 by Bal Harbour Shops.
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The focus of the public records request was on
documents, electronic documents dealing primarily
with Bal Harbour Shops. It was focused on the
village and also on Patricia Cohen. It requested
33 different categories of electronic
communications.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Excuse me. There was
also Martin Packer at the time, at the outset.
MR. SEROTA: I'll get to it.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I thought you left him
out now because he's out of the picture.
MR. SEROTA: No, no. The first public
records request was focused on Patricia and the
village.
Then there was a second public records
request made later on which was focused on Mayor
Packer.
There were some documents produced by the
village right away prior to the lawsuit, but then
two weeks later a lawsuit was filed against the
village and Patricia Cohen in her official
capacity.
I will tell you that this is really quite
unusual that somebody, that an entity would file a
lawsuit as quickly as two weeks or right after a
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public records request is made. Specially one
this broad and this comprehensive, but this was
the strategy, I guess, that the shops employed.
What followed then, as I say, was a second
public records request against Mayor Packer. He
was not brought into the lawsuit, but there was a
great deal of effort put into getting his e-mails
as well from his electronic devices. What
followed then was a lengthy and really, frankly,
very expensive process to narrow the universe of
documents to those considered public records.
If any of you have ever been involved in
any kind of a search through your electronic
records, it is a difficult, slow and expensive
process to get there.
Fairly early on, as I say, the village
completed its production of public records. The
remaining process of litigation is really
narrowing documents contained within Ms. Cohen's
personal devices as to what constituted a public
record. So it started with a huge universe and
ended up really with a relative handful of
documents at issue.
At this point, the number of documents at
issue is really quite small. Ms. Cohen's attorney
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sent a settlement offer to the shops to resolve
the remaining issues and what you sent out --what
Patricia has passed out --
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You have it in front
of you.
MR. SEROTA: --was a settlement offer to
try to resolve it.
There has been no response. This
settlement offer was sent this week on Monday.
There has been no response at all.
It does look like we are down to a relative
handful of documents at issue, but you really
can't predict what the shops will do. The purpose
of the settlement offer was to finally just say we
are down to these documents. Let's just focus on
this and then be done.
It is theoretically possible that the shops
could go back and request additional documents.
Right, Justin?
MR. LUGER: Yes.
MR. SEROTA: So that is really where we
are. That takes us up to date.
MR. GONZALEZ: There's two cases.
MR. WEISS: We are not going to deal with
it in the same session.
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Mayor Groisman, if you don't mind, David
has asked to be sort of heard on this.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: The first question I
have, and I think Jorge has, can you just give us
the dollar amount where we are right now, Jorge?
Because I have a printout that shows we are at
about $650,000. Can you just --
MAYOR GROISMAN: This is attorneys fees for
this matter?
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Exactly. That we have
expended.
MR. GONZALEZ: That stuff I have to kind of
calculate separately. So for the case that Joe
just described.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Yes.
MR. GONZALEZ: It's 448,000 in legal fees
and then probably another 48,000 in the IT
MAYOR GROISMAN: Costs.
MR. GONZALEZ: -- costs of retrieving those
e-mails several months ago.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Independently.
MR. GONZALEZ: Yes.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: How did we get to 650?
MR. GONZALEZ: This is just this case.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Oh.
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MR. GONZALEZ: There is a second case that,
I guess, is the subject of a different executive
session.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Oh, okay. Because I
was considering the total dollars.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Is that paid through
today?
MR. GONZALEZ: That is paid through today.
We haven't received December.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Okay. So we are
talking about $500,000.
MR. GONZALEZ: On this case. The second
case, that dates back to about April.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Some of which US Legal
charged how much?
MR. GONZALEZ: About 48, 50. Round it to
50.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: So we are at about
$500,000.
MR. GONZALEZ: To today. We have not yet
received the December bill. Through November.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: The case started
approximately April, May of this year?
MR. SEROTA: March. It started March
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: 22nd.
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MR. SEROTA: It started on March 7th.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: The public records
request was started --
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: The expenses started
around April give or take?
MR. SEROTA: Almost immediately.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: We had to.
COUNCILMAN ALBAOM: I understand.
Of course, Patricia has given us this
morning, which is very encouraging. Hopefully,
there will be a settlement and maybe what I am
going to say isn't going to be that relevant, but
I don't know if there is a settlement.
But my thought was, and I have tremendous
respect for Patricia and everybody here today. I
am not here to judge the case. I have no grind to
pick. I have no ideas right, wrong, it's in the
middle. That is not for me or I think for any of
us to judge because we are not -- Gabe is a
lawyer, and we have a group of lawyers here today,
but I am concerned about the money and what we
spent.
Prior to this, my personal feeling was this
case was going to just go on and on and on. My
understanding from Richard was that we could, the
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city would be very much liable for the shops' fees
also, which are probably, I have no idea, but they
are probably in the same ballpark of money. I
have no idea e~actly what that number is, but I
was thinking in my mind this case might go for
another year. We may end up with a three million
liability, three and a half, which could represent
20, 25 percent of all of our funds.
I certainly don't want us to be sitting
here a year with that --a year from now, six
months from now with that kind of liability.
So having said that, my feeling was that I
wanted to propose a cap, a dollar limit to how
much further we would go with this, and I wanted
to, I had put this on the agenda for Tuesday, the
20th, and that is where I am with it.
Gabe, I would like to hear from you.
MAYOR GROISMAN: So I appreciate
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: And I have a dollar
amount in mind. Okay? I mean, if it's 500,000,
if that is the number, my recommendation would be
maybe we would go on that case, just the one case
we are talking about today, maybe another 100,000
and at 600,000 we would cap it. That is my
recommendation to the council and my perspective.
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then
this
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MAYOR GROISMAN: Let me just respond.
Patricia, I'm sure you want to respond.
Maybe you want to hear from a few of us and
respond in total.
First of all, I don't have any qualm from
corner at all, even on the case, what J.S
happening, what is not happening with the case.
I think the individual, I know that the
individual who has been taking us all and all our
taxpayers for a ride is the attorney. Not you,
Ms. Cohen, at all. He is getting a free paycheck
that averaged over $50,000 in attorneys fees for a
discovery case, which is what this is. It's
literally one of the most simple kinds of lawsuits
you can do. I get that they have been difficult.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Let me interject one
second. Sorry to interrupt.
And this particular case is the single
biggest case that the city has ever had regarding
monies dealt out for someone on the council. We
have never had anything like this.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Perhaps because the
project is probably the biggest.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: That is a very unusual
case and I just --
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MAYOR GROISMAN: The perspective I can
bring to the table as far as the fees go is that a
case of a very complex magnitude, and antitrust
case, a trademark case that is busy, can be up to
60, $70,000 a month for a small firm. That is
sort of where a midsized firm will max out for a
full paying client on a monthly. There are a
bunch of other lawyers in the room that can
confirm that.
The major law firms will charge up to 100,
150. Some will charge more because they are
insane, but if you just divide up the hours --
right? -- because he is charging, it's an average
of $56,250 a month. If you divide it by an hourly
of what is he charging us, $400 an hour?
MR. SEROTA: 450, I think.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: No, he's not. It's
375 and 275.
MR. GONZALEZ: It's two rates. rt•s two
rates that he is charging.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: 275 and 375.
MAYOR GROISMAN: That is 56,250, right?
Divided by 375?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: It's average because
it is mostly 375 because it's mostly discovery.
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MAYOR GROISMAN: So let's divide my 325.
He is spending working, billing 173 hours a month.
That is not real. I mean, the guy is taking us
for a ride.
It's not you, Ms. Cohen, at all. It's not
you. I'm telling you. I have been saying it for
months because I understand what these bills
represent. It's what I do for a living. The guy
is taking the taxpayers of Bal Harbour for a ride.
I understand the proposal. I agree with
something of that nature, whether it's a cap or a
flat fee for anything for this case. The amount,
my position is consistent with the other one. We
need to have a cap.
If this is the lawyer that you want,
Ms. Cohen, you get to choose your lawyer, I think,
and the lawyers here can decide, but I am sure we
can get Richard to get five lawyers to do what is
the remainder of both these cases for a flat fee
for $100,000. It would be a coup for them.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Gabe, how do you know
what Bal Harbour Shops is coming down the line
with, down the pike with? How can you know?
MAYOR GROISMAN: I'll tell you what I know.
I'll tell you what I know.
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I work at one of the top boutique
litigation firms in Miami. I work with 20, 21
lawyers. We represent the biggest companies in
Miami with all their litigation, the biggest law
firms with all their litigation. We even do some
municipal litigation. We represent Sunny Isles in
their complex litigation cases.
First of all, we charge them much less per
hour than what this guy charges because you don't
get to charge municipalities what he is charging.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Well, he reduced his
fees considerably. You understand that.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I understand that, but the
way I understand it is because, as lawyers all the
time, we are asked to provide flat fees or caps.
So we know how to look at cases. We are not
always right. It's not a perfect science, but we
know how to look at cases and estimate how we can
do okay financially and give a flat fee based on
the kind of case that it is.
Because right now since he is being paid
for everything -- let's assume he is being honest
and he really is billing this many hours a month
between him and his partner. What he is doing is
he is spending every waking hour on this case even
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if he doesn't have to because he is getting paid
for it. So he has no reason to work on other
cases.
It has nothing to do with you at all
personally, but it does have to do with the
attorney, and I know how much I would charge for
this case. I know how much I would charge for the
case.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Have you really
truthfully read every pleading?
MAYOR GROISMAN: No, I have not.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I'm asking you. So
then don't you think it would be really, it would
be incumbent upon you to do that before you
just -- before you issue? The tediousness that we
have gone through, the thousands of hours. I
wouldn't say thousands for myself, but hundreds of
hours that I have had to pour through e-mails and
defend each e-mail that they are trying to allege
that is public information. This is tedious work
that you have, I would probably, I venture to say
that you have not done anything close to this.
MAYOR GROISMAN: It's not about me, so I
really don't want to get into it.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: No. Because you said,
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you keep referring to yourself and we are all
here.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Every single case that I
have is exactly the same. I have a case right
that we are going through 55,000 documents, not
pages. So it's every single case.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: By the way, these are
e-mail transcripts.
MAYOR GROISMAN: One thing I don't want to
get lost because we have new members on the
council here. I urge all the members of the
council to use their public e-mail address for
public purposes. Because when we get a document
request -- there is a court reporter here. When
we get a document request if it's on your public
e-mail, the clerk will pull it for you. There is
no work to be done. There is no coding for
private versus public. It's already done. It's
there.
So if they ask you for your personal
e-mail, the answer is none, because there is none
of your work stuff.
If somebody sends you an e-mail to your
Gmail account, all you have to do is forward it to
your Bal Harbour e-mail and then you will never
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have a lawsuit about documents. If it's done that
way, then there is no issue.
MR. GONZALEZ: The same with texts.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Except that is Monday
morning quarterback. I was never told to forward.
MAYOR GROISMAN: No, for them.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: No, I know.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I'm not telling you.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: If I have, if a friend
writes me, is there a meeting tonight in Bal
Harbour, that is public information. That is a
public document. Are we going to dinner? No, I
have a meeting. That is public because I
mentioned a meeting.
So it's not like you are only talking about
what is the next vote, what is on the agenda.
It's life.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Let me ask you a question.
Are you happy with your attorney?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: How can I --
MAYOR GROISMAN: The fees.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: How can I not be
pleased. He has defended me very well. He is
respectful of my privacy. He has an excellent
reputation. I asked all around town. I have been
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diligent in my inquiries about him. No one has
ever challenged his fees or his bills and he
encourages us to go through his bill. He
encourages us to do whatever you need to certify
or verify that, in fact, it's accurate, that he
hasn't been overcharging.
I really find it, wow, it's chutzpah on
your part to say he has been taking us for a ride.
Really.
MAYOR GROISMAN: That is not honest.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You wouldn't want
someone to be able to label your work or your
intention or your billing in that manner. That is
a wow.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I'm very careful with --
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Until you know. Until
you know.
MAYOR GROISMAN:
with how I do my work.
me like that.
Hold on. I'm very careful
So no one would ever label
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: And you don't think he
is?
MAYOR GROISMAN: I know he's not. Not I
don't think. I know he's not.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I'm not an attorney.
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You need to work that out with him.
MAYOR GROISMAN: It's not my place.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You need to work that
out with him because he has done that work and we
have never disputed one single bill. You have two
weeks to dispute a bill.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Not me personally.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I am saying you as the
law states that we have two weeks to dispute a
bill if they have any kind of dispute. No one has
ever disputed it, but the man has been performing
work. He outlines the use of his time
specifically down to the quarter of an hour, I
believe. Where is the smoking gun?
MAYOR GROISMAN: So here is my question.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Where is the
accusation stemming from?
MAYOR GROISMAN: My only question to you is
this. If we can negotiate with the attorney to
give you the same service, continue to defend you,
et cetera, but to cap his fees or to provide a
flat fee.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Then I am going to
explain to you. I know what you are going to say.
MAYOR GROISMAN: But let me ask the
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question.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Go ahead.
MAYOR GROISMAN: We don't want you to be
negatively affected. We want you to have the best
representation that you need. We all deserve it.
So I'm asking you would you find that you would be
negatively affected if Richard or Jorge or someone
negotiates with him a flat fee to provide the same
service or to cap his fees? It's a very normal
negotiation.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I think whatever we
can do to save taxpayer money, to stop the
floodgates -- I mean, we have to preface this
statement by saying this is a frivolous lawsuit.
There is not one single smoking gun after eight
months.
MAYOR GROISMAN: No one here said there is.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: The problem is it's
written in the horizon and if we have a crystal
ball, they are not going to stop because it's in
their best interest to continue because their
attorneys have now led them down a road, which is
fallacious, and their attorneys have to in some
way justify what they have spent because they have
spent way more than us because they don't get $375
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an hour, Shubin & Bass.
I have friends who have used that firm and
the fees are way more than that. So now they have
to keep going until there is something that they
can say, oh, you see, that is why we did this.
But there is nothing there.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: I understand, but how
can we sit here as a council and --
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You stop them. You
get them to settle. ·That is what you do. You
direct your energy where you should.
MAYOR GROISMAN: There are two parallel
tracks.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: No, there is no
parallel tracks.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: I don't want to sit
here three, four million dollars down the road.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Neither do I.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: That is all I'm worried
about. That is my concern.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: We are trying to
settle with them. There is nothing there. The
magistrate has ruled there is 42 items if you
would read this.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I read it.
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COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: I read it.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: The magistrate said
there is 42 items. We don't believe they are
public records. We are going to hand them the 42
items. There is nothing there.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Why don't you just hand
them as part of the settlement?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I am going to tell you
why. If I give them that, they are going to want
another 142 and then 188 and it all goes through
another process of review. These are my personal
items, Gabe. It's me writing to my son and
mentioning I have a council meeting. No, I can't
meet you. Because it says council meeting, it's
not private. My son doesn't want that revealed.
I'm just giving you a silly one. Okay? This is
my private life, and I vehemently defend it and
any of you in that position.
MAYOR GROISMAN: In this e-mail, you are
agreeing to produce it.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Because we realize
that we want to settle.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Let's shift to the
parallel track, and this goes to Jorge or Richard
or any of the attorneys in the room, have there
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been any discussions with the shops about the
settlement proposal or anything?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: That is what you
should be centering on.
MAYOR GROISMAN: They are parallel but they
are not mutually exclusive.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: They are mutually
exclusive.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I disagree.
Go ahead.
MR. SEROTA: The offer was sent. You can
see it in front of you. That is the offer that
was sent on Monday. It's Friday morning. We have
not heard any response.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Has there been any other
discussion as far as we know to resolve the case?
MR. SEROTA: Justin, are you aware of any
other discussions about resolution?
MR. LUGER: I am not.
MR. GONZALEZ: During our last executive
session, you instructed me to go and meet with
them relative to the other cases.
While I didn't bring this case up
specifically, he mentioned that there seems to be
a settlement offer on its way, have you seen it.
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They replied --I am going to paraphrase their
reply. Something to the effect that if the
settlement offer includes Councilwoman Cohen's
willingness to recuse herself, kind of as a
starting point. I said, listen, I am not aware
what is the detail of the settlement offer.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Listen, I want to hear
from Seth and Jeff on this. Okay?
Go ahead.
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: One thing that
might be an issue that we can look at -- I don't
disagree with a lot of what has been said. It's
taxpayer money, but at the same time if we go
public with the fact that we are going to cut the
purse strings, then what motivation does the shops
have to settle at all?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Thank you. Thank you.
MAYOR GROISMAN: So understand the proposal
that I am thinking of here is when you can make a
deal with lawyers, we have them in our firm all
the time. I am sure Richard has them in his, Joe
in theirs all the time as well. You are not
saying that they are not going to be represented.
You make a deal with the lawyers as far as what
his fees are going to be. He is not going to stop
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working. Maybe there is a misunderstanding. Not
to cap his work, to cap how much we are going to
pay him.
Another idea is -- we do it all the time,
Patricia. For example, a flat fee. If we can do
on this case $100,000 flat fee, I would take that
tomorrow as a lawyer.
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: Because if he
says
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: He makes $100,000.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Patricia, I am not even
saying what the number is.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: No, I know.
MAYOR GROISMAN: The idea is, just to
respond to Seth, I am not proposing anything as
far as cutting the purse strings in the sense that
they are going to say, okay, now we push harder
because they don't have a lawyer.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Right.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: That is exactly what
they are going to do and my attorney is going
to --by the way, he hasn't really --I haven't
asked him this question because I don't want to
put him on the spot and more than an attorney, we
are friends, and he feels he's invested in this.
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How do we ask him if these people continue
to push us against the wall, the opposing party,
how do I ask him after 100,000, whatever, 50,
whatever it is, to keep going and working for
nothing when his time can be used at $595 to
represent all the other clients. It's just not
fair. He didn't do anything. He is trying to
settle it.
MAYOR GROISMAN: He's trying to settle it
this week.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: He has been trying to
settle it for awhile.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Has he sent a settlement
offer before today?
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: He has been talking
about it, but they keep pushing for more discovery
and more discovery, so you cannot settle.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Just to answer your
question and then we will see what Jeff has to say
on this, but that is a negotiation that lawyers
have literally every week on capping fees or on
flat fees. It's not some sort of unfair thing,
believe me.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Gabe, when the other
side wants to come to it, these people, it is not
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in their best interest.
MAYOR GROISMAN: It's a question of
numbers.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: They have no limit.
They can spend as much as they want. So they will
ride us out. They don't want to settle.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Patricia, it's a question
of numbers. It's not a question of if he will do
it. There is a price.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I am talking the Bal
Harbour Shops.
MAYOR GROISMAN: But there is a price at
which he will be comfortable and happy with a flat
fee of all of this.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You know what he told
me? He doesn't want one more penny. He wants his
December bill paid, and he wants to settle. He
doesn't want to continue. He doesn't want the
animosity. He doesn't understand why he would
continue, but if they keep filing motions for
this, motions for that, what can he do?
MAYOR GROISMAN: Let's hear from
Mr. Freimark.
MR. GONZALEZ: You have a second case that
is not being discussed, but that is I don't think
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part of the settlement.
MAYOR GROISMAN: No, it's not.
MR. GONZALEZ: Correct.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Our energy, we should
be here talking about Bal Harbour Shops, what is
on their mind.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Patricia, he is charging
us over $50,000 a month.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You are disputing it
based on the premise that you feel that he is
being dishonest.
MAYOR GROISMAN: I know he is.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Then you need to work
that out with him.
MAYOR GROISMAN: He is not my attorney,
Patricia. He's yours. We are just paying the
bills.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I cannot dispute his
bills. How would you like me to dispute his
bills? I am not knowledgeable in that. I can't
look at them.
MAYOR GROISMAN: What we are asking you is,
what I am proposing, and it sounds like Dave is
proposing, is to assign somebody in this room, and
I don't think it should be a councilmernber. It
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needs to be either Richard Weiss or Jorge
Gonzalez
MR. GONZALEZ: I think it has to be
Richard.
MAYOR GROISMAN: -- to go and negotiate
with him. Nothing that is going to affect your
defense of this lawsuit at all, but we need to sit
down and get serious with him and say the $50,000
a month party is over. This case is already
winding down. We have already spent a lot of
money on it. He knows how to negotiate for
himself, I promise you.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You just said the case
is winding down, but you stand corrected. The
case might just be revving up.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: That is right. That is
the problem.
MAYOR GROISMAN: They will negotiate.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: The problem is with
Bal Harbour Shops, not with my attorney.
MAYOR GROISMAN: He will negotiate the
right deal for himself. What r•m trying to do is
to get Richard to go in there and negotiate a
price certain for us because we are paying the
bills and they are getting out of hand. That is
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all we are focusing o~.
Let's go to Jeff.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Richard, I would like
this done before the 20th. I know it's only
Tuesday, but if you could get right on it before
the council meeting on the 20th.
MR. WEISS: I will try.
MAYOR GROISMAN: See if he will like your
proposal.
MR. WEISS: Okay.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Jeff.
COUNCILMAN fREIMARK: So I too can't opine
on the past and I understand clearly that the
appropriate representation needs to be provided.
That is the obligation.
As I see it, there are two primary issues.
One is the question of fees and dollars that are
being paid, and those are bifurcated from my
perspective as well. One is the cash dollars and
second are the optics on this because I think it's
incumbent on the council to be mindful of the
optics that is playing out in the community as
well relative to all of the fees that are being
paid which can be categorized in the minds of many
as waste because it's truly not a value added back
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to the community.
Then, secondly, is bringing all of this to
closure with the objective of coming to a
settlement. Reasonable parties, including lawyers
who need to be controlled by their clients need to
be directed towards a point of settlement.
I, too, as Gabe espoused, am very used to
working with flat fee arrangements. We do that
all the time in terms of litigation or specific
projects with the exception being somewhat
transactionally oriented if we are doing specific
types of transactions, but even in those cases
many times it's a flat fee type of an arrangement.
We deal with some of largest firms in town in
terms of that because it's part of the economics
of a firm and the lawyers do know how to assess
their cases and understand the risks and the
rewards and the potential of that and can't
necessarily turn back the hands of time. So I
truly don't know what the rights are of the
council, the village council or counsel counsel to
be able to go and renegotiate the fees and rates
at this point in time.
What we need to do from the perspective of
the council is to bring this to closure. We need
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to absolutely bring this to closure.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: And everything that
you have said is sound. Okay?
But the optics, Jeff, the optics are that
everybody that has come to this council meeting
has stood up there and said, let's not negotiate
with these, quote/unquote, terrorists, which is
exactly what they are doing.
They file a lawsuit against Martin and I
because we voted against them. Not against him
and him because they voted in favor. So let's not
get buried in the facts of the case.
MAYOR GROISMAN: They didn't file a lawsuit
against Martin.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Yes, they did. They
filed a public records.
well.
MAYOR GROISMAN: We got a public records as
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: Yes.
MAYOR GROISMAN: We did. Yes, we did.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: But they were
proceeding against Martin.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Just to be clear, we all
got public records requests. Some of us just
turned over the documents, and others had other
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issues, but we all got public records request.
All of us. Every member of the council.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Seth, did you have
COUNCILMAN FREIMARK: I do believe it is
incumbent on the council to work towards a cap in
terms of legal fees, direct the lawyers to work
towards a settlement as well.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: To work toward a
settlement with Bal Harbour Shops you mean.
COUNCILMAN FREIMARK: Yes, yes, yes, with
all parties.
A settlement can't happen unilaterally. In
this case, it's a bilateral transaction. So it
has to work amongst both of the parties, and there
are more holistic, and there are other issues that
are incumbent on both sides to want to bring this
to closure as well.
We have got to get this thing done and
behind us. We have other issues to deal with. We
have other items to deal with. We have to get rid
of this.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: Well, this is on the
table and it has been how many days and they
haventt responded.
MR. GONZALEZ: We don't know.
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close.
Page 35
MAYOR GROISMAN: Let's just bring to a
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Seth, did you finish?
Because I know you were kind of cut off. Did you
finish? I think you might have got cut off. I
don't know.
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: I am just
concerned. I like the term in here that says we
are not going to be responsible for Shubin & Bass
bill. I don't know how realistic this settlement
is.
MR. SEROTA: It's a settlement offer. In
other words, it is an appropriate way to start.
We are waiting for a response.
ASSISTANT MAYOR SALVER: Okay.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Just to try to gather all
the thoughts that everyone said, it sounds like
the council is saying that Richard Weiss should
try to see to work towards two different things.
One, which I'm sure Patricia will be very
happy with. Correct me if am wrong, Patricia. To
push the shops and him, to push him to prioritize
trying to get this lawsuit --I am only talking
about this lawsuit, which is just a document
lawsuit.
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The comment that Jorge was told by the
shops had nothing to with this lawsuit because
this lawsuit is just about documents. Not about
the Sunshine Act or any of those other issues.
So to push to prioritize resolving this
lawsuit and similarly, on a parallel track, to
work with him to get either a cap or a flat fee
I am not saying what the number should be -- in a
way that doesn't affect Patricia's defense in any
way, shape or form, but it protects us
financially. If we were a private party, we would
be doing that as well.
MR. WEISS: I think it would be helpful if
you can agree on the range of flat fee or cap that
you are talking about.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: How can you agree on
the range if you don't know what Bal Harbour Shops
is going to do, Richard? I have played this out
in many ways with Ken.
MR. WEISS: You are sending me to try to
negotiate a flat fee or a cap.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: But you are the
attorney.
MR. WEISS: Yes.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You are the attorney
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for the village.
MR. WEISS: Right.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: How do we know what we
have in store?
MAYOR GROISMAN: I actually don't think we
should give you a number, Richard. What I suggest
is that we don't close the deal with him, but see
what you can get. You are the client.
MR. GONZALEZ: What is the cap he would
agree to.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Right. See what you can
get for us, all of us, everybody in Bal Harbour.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You have a recurrent
pain, tooth ache, and you go to the doctor and
they find you have a root canal. The next week
you have something else, and you keep going.
Listen, I can't stand this. It's all the time.
It looks like we are going to have to do the whole
mouth. Can you do me a flat fee? Well, no,
because I have to go into every tooth and see what
is under every tooth. Some of them might be root
canal.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Then the dentist will
say the mouth is perfect. Your dentist might say
all that will cost $100,000 over two years, but if
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you give me $50,000 today, today's money, I will
take it today.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: I have never found a
deal like that. Then they have to do like
cosmetics. They will say, no, no, no, we have to
do it in stages.
MS. TREVARTHEN: One at a time. One at a
time.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: I don't believe this
council is prepared to be looking at a three or
four million dollar bill a year from now.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: You are simplifying
it.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Guys, guys, guys.
COUNCILMAN FREIMARK: This is an entirely
theoretical conversation. Until Richard goes and
have the conversation to determine what your
lawyer may or may not be interested in, we are
debating this amongst ourselves without that party
at the table.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: He should have been
here.
MAYOR GROISMAN: He is not allowed to be
here under the law.
COUNCILMAN FREIMARK: I think the
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instruction from my perspective, the instruction
is for counsel to go and have a discussion, state
the objectives that we are defining here this
morning and see what the response is in terms of
being able to get guided towards a lump sum type
of an arrangement.
MR. WEISS: Yes.
MAYOR GROISMAN: With the goal also of
reaching a quick resolution. That should be a
priority.
Before we go on to the next, to close this
and open to go onto the next case, does anybody
have anything else they would like to say?
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: Of course, I had no
idea that we were going to be presented with this
today. I thought the case was just rolling along.·
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: By my attorney not to
be here and excluded from being here.
COUNCILMAN .ALBAUM: No, no, no. This is a
good thing. I was prepared if this wouldn't have
happened, I was prepared to just put this to a
vote on Tuesday on a cap.
This doesn't really have to happen, but if
he does, if he does get something agreed upon by
Tuesday, we can certainly vote on it.
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MAYOR GROISMAN: Do we have to vote on the
retainer agreement?
MR. SEROTA: It was a resolution.
MAYOR GROISMAN: To amend it.
MR. GONZALEZ: A vote to amend the
resolution.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: If not, then it will go
to January.
COUNCILWOMAN COHEN: The council can't
amend a resolution. I have a contract with this
man.
MS. TREVARTHEN: He can agree to change it,
and they can approve it.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Patricia, the contract,
every lawyer's contract is at will. You can
renegotiate it. You can actually fire him or he
can fire you at any time under Florida law.
COUNCILMAN ALBAUM: So it's less than two
weeks.
MAYOR GROISMAN: Wait. The discussion is
not over for the day because we have one more
coming up.
This attorney/client session has now been
terminated and the meeting is now open. The
public is now invited to return for any further
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proceedings or matters.
MR. WEISS: Just somebody open up the door.
I can't get up.
(Thereupon, the proceedings were concluded
at 8:49 a.m.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
5 I, Mary G. Stephenson, FPR, State of Florida at
6 Large, certify that I was authorized to and did
7 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and
8 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
9 stenographic notes.
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Dated this 3rd day of January, 2017.
Mary G. Stephenson, FPR
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