HomeMy Public PortalAbout2023_tcwsmin0508Council Work Session May 8, 2023
Council Chamber, 25 West Market Street, Leesburg, Virginia, 7:00 p.m. Mayor Kelly Burk
presiding.
Council Members Present: Ara Bagdasarian, Todd Cimino -Johnson, Zach Cummings, Kari
Nacy, Vice Mayor Neil Steinberg, Patrick Wilt, and Mayor Kelly Burk.
Council Members Absent: None.
Staff Present: Town Manager Kaj Dentler, Town Attorney Christopher Spera, Deputy Town
Manager Keith, Leesburg Police Lieutenant Jason Allegra and Clerk of Council Eileen Boeing.
AGENDA ITEMS
a. Item for Discussion
a. 2023 Virginia General Assembly Legislative Wrap -Up
Mr. Markel reviewed the 2023 Virginia General Assembly. Items of interest to
Leesburg include:
• License reciprocity from other states for water and wastewater operators;
• Requirement to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks versus yielding;
• Annual reporting requirement to the State on changes to some land use
issues;
• Extension on moratorium for issuing City Charters until 2032;
• Reduction of descriptions required for public hearing notices in printed
advertisements;
• Formation of a group to study long-term rental regulations if the property
was managed by a realtor;
• Authority to chief law enforcement officer to enact a local curfew up to 24
hours during a civil disturbance; and
• Amending State Code requirements to include energy conservation measures
and electric vehicle charging stations for new or renovated buildings over
5,000 square feet.
Council and staff discussed the item. Mayor Burk requested the future work
session discussion on the Town's 2024 Legislative Program begin sooner to allow
additional time to work with legislators. Staff agreed to move this item forward on the
schedule.
b. Legislative Advocacy for the Virginia General Assembly
Mr. Markel reviewed Council's request to explore legislative support for specific
legislative issues, to assist with the development of the Town's legislative program, follow
legislation that may have an impact on Leesburg or local govemment and/or hiring an
in-house Legislative Coordinator.
Council and staff discussed the item.
There was no consensus to move forward with this item.
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Council Work Session May 8, 2023
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c. Review the Charter of Each Board and Commission
Mr. Dentler requested direction from Council regarding any desired changes to the
charter of the Town's Boards and Commissions.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of Council to have a future Work Session discussion on the membership
requirements for each Board and Commission.
d. Proposed Amendment of the Noise Ordinance (Town Code Sec. 24-182(a)(5))
regarding Amplified Noise Permits
Mr. Spera reviewed the current noise ordinance and inconsistencies with the current
permit process and reviewed the following proposed amendments to the ordinance:
• Extending the plainly audible standard to 100 feet;
• Implement a list of best practices to manage noise and provide a "safe
harbor" to those who comply with the best practices; and
• Balancing amplified sound and the impact to the community.
Council Member Bagdasarian presented some best practices to include along with a
noise permit to help permit holders minimize sound impacts to neighboring properties.
Council and staff discussed the item.
It was the consensus of Council to have a future Work Session discussion on potential
amendments to the noise ordinance that includes benchmarking ordinances from otherjurisdictions,
looking at technologies available to help reduce the sound impacts to neighboring properties and
includes Police Department input.
b. Additions to Future Council Meetings
Council Member Cimino -Johnson requested a Work Session discussion on installing an
outdoor volleyball court to include input from the Parks and Recreation Advisory Commission
on potential locations.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to a future work session for discussion.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson requested information on the cost for Council
Members to participate in same healthcare program offered to full-time employees at full cost to
Council Members.
It was the consensus of Council to receive an information memo for this item.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson requested a Work Session discussion for an aide or
dedicated office support to Council Members.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to a future work session for discussion.
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Council Work Session May 8, 2023
Council Member Cummings requested a work session discussion on community
composting.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to a future work session for discussion.
Council Member Cummings asked Mr. Denier about the process for providing input
regarding the Zoning Ordinance amendment for the maximum number of rooms allowed for an
inn. Mr. Dentler noted that Planning and Zoning Director James David was working on the
proposed text amendment to present to the Planning Commission which includes Council
Member's individual input but noted there was no majority direction given by Council when
discussed at the work session.
Council Member Wilt requested a work session discussion regarding the Liberty Street
Lot parking lot to allow for ingress and egress. It is currently limited to egress traffic only. Mr.
Dentler noted there were funds currently available to conduct a study. There were no objections
for staff to proceed with the study to be presented at a future work session; however, the impact
of the Liberty Lot Redevelopment proposal will be included as part of the discussion when
considering whether to proceed with the recommendations of the study.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to a future work session discussion.
Mayor Burk requested a proclamation for Jewish American Heritage Month to be
proclaimed at the May 9, 2023, Council meeting.
It was the consensus of Council to add this item to the May 9, 2023, Council meeting.
c. dion
On a motion by Vice Mayor Steinberg, seconded by Council Member Cummings, the meeting was
adjourned at 8:09 p. m.
Clerk of Council
2023_tcwsmin0508
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May 8, 2023 — Leesburg Town Council Work Session
(Note: This is a transcript prepared by a Town contractor based on the video of the meeting. It
may not be entirely accurate. For greater accuracy, we encourage you to review the video of
the meeting that is on the Town's Web site — www.leesburgva.gov or refer to the approved
Council meeting minutes. Council meeting videos are retained for three calendar years after a
meeting per Library of Virginia Records Retention guidelines.)
Mayor Kelly Burk: Welcome to tonight's Town Council work session. Our first item on the agenda for
tonight is the 2023 Virginia General Assembly Legislative Wrap-up. Mr. Markel?
Keith Markel: Good evening, Mayor and Council. Thank you. I wanted to just spend a few minutes
here with you this evening to go through the outcomes of this year's General Assembly session for
2023. As you all know, there wasn't a whole lot of high expectations for being a real successful
productive General Assembly session this year. A few things were working against us and working
against the State. For one, it was a short session, so they just had fewer days to work with. They also
had no sponsored legislation from our local delegation for any of the items on the Town's legislative
program. It was a lame -duck session for many legislators with the new redistricting that will take effect
this year.
Many legislators are using this as a retirement year for them, so this would be the last session that
they were serving in. Many were being redistricted into new geographic areas. So, it made it
challenging for folks to sponsor significant legislation that would have controversy with it. Also, there's
just an increase in partisanship as noticed by VML staff as they pointed out. It's just harder to get
things done because there is less cooperation than in years past. There were, however, a few bills
that came through that do have some impact. Nothing hugely significant, but 111 just touch on a few
here for you this evening, legislation that has been signed into law that will take effect.
One thing that works in the Town's favor and for any locality that runs its own water and wastewater
operation, is a bill that allows utility operators from out-of-state, who have out-of-state licenses to also
be recognized within the Commonwealth of Virginia. That license reciprocity allows those operators,
in our case, many who might be in West Virginia or Maryland to come to Virginia without having to
take the Virginia test. As long as they're in good standing and meet some other qualifications or have
had their license for several years, they would be able to be recognized by the State regulatory
agencies to be operators.
When we have an increasingly challenged labor market to find qualified operators, this is a good thing
for folks like Leesburg. Pedestrian safety signs. Crosswalk signs now can require vehicles to stop, not
just yield for pedestrians. If you look around Town, we have yield for pedestrians and crosswalk. Little
change to the law here allows stop for pedestrians and crosswalk. Land use reporting has increased.
The Department of Housing and Community Development now requires localities that make changes
to their comprehensive plans, zoning ordinances, housing policies need to report that to them
annually for them to maintain those records.
No City Charters. This is something that's been pushed out year after year and done in multi -year
increments dating back to the '80s. This has now been pushed out to extending moratoriums on city
annexations and city charters being issued to at least 2032.
Public hearing notices saw a modest change there that reduces the amount of print that needs to go
into the ad so you don't have to give a full description of the actual item taking place, just property,
owner, and address, and date and time of the public hearing. Again, this is something that will still
need to be published in the printed newspaper, but less text needs to go into that ad. Short -Term
Rental Study. There was a bill introduced that would've proposed that any Airbnb or similar sort of
short-term rental property being managed by a realtor would not have to follow local regulations put in
place by a locality. This is a great concern to localities throughout Virginia.
VML brought this up as a major concern as part of its legislative program. This has now been sent to
a study committee to look at the impacts of what would happen if realtors were able to circumvent any
local regulatory authorities imposed on the short-term rental properties. Local curfews with lots of
limitations. The Chief law -enforcement officer can enact up to a 24 -hour curfew during a civil
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disturbance. Anything over 24 hours would need to be approved by the local governing body. There
are many freedom of speech issues related with this one as well.
Energy Conservation and EV Charging Stations. This is an amendment to the Code that was adopted
last year or the year before that had localities over 100,000 population had to meet certain
environmental thresholds for new building construction. This now gets rid of that population
requirement. Any locality that's going to be building a new building over 5,000 square feet would have
to meet these new environmental standards, which is a good thing and things that the Town will be
looking at with our new Energy Manager on board. Wouldn't apply to the Police Department because
that was already approved and in the works. For future development projects, these are things that
we'll be looking at.
Looking ahead to 2024, this is very important. The Town will have all new representation next year
due to the redistricting and retirement. Delegate Gooditis, Delegate LaRock will not be representing.
Delegate Gooditis is retiring. Delegate LaRock is running for a Senate seat. Senator Boysko's district
has been realigned. She'll no longer represent Leesburg. Drastic changes there to our representation,
which means it's an important year for building relationships with whoever ends up being the Town's
representation in Richmond. Our legislative program discussions will kick off for the 2024 session on
July 24'" at our work session in July. I'm happy to answer any questions you all may have on this.
Mayor Burk: Thank you for your presentation. The one thing that the legislators have asked us is to
bring our legislative program to them sooner. I see that we're on the calendar for-- When is it? July?
Keith Markel: Yes, the second work session in July.
Mayor Burk: Is there no way to move it closer up?
Keith Markel: We can, if you like, yes.
Mayor Burk: Because that seems like far away and then everybody goes away in August. Not me,
but everybody else does. If there was a way to move it up to an earlier session so that we could have
July to meet with them, that would be useful.
Keith Markel: The challenge with this coming year is that we won't know who our representatives will
be with the General Assembly. We know who's running in those races, but we won't have
confirmation on who will be representing the Town or their willingness to sponsor in the legislation
until we get into November.
Vice Mayor Neil Steinberg: We do have legislators though, who aren't representing Leesburg
directly who have expressed an interest to know what our agenda might be, because they too would
perhaps help us do that. There are several that we could get it to.
Mayor Burk: Thank you. Does anyone else have any questions? Mr. Steinberg.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Minor one. For the pedestrian crossing, when you say stop rather than yield,
are you saying motorists are now required to come to a full stop at these crossings as opposed to just
looking to see if anybody's coming across and continuing on their way?
Keith Markel: It's just a semantic change. I shouldn't say its semantics, but its yield, was the former
term. Now it's stop. I think it gives a little more preference to the pedestrian and a little less to the
driver, so that vehicles need to stop when a pedestrian is in the crosswalk.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: If a pedestrian is in --
Keith Markel: Correct, not just yield to them.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Okay, all right, thanks.
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Mayor Burk: Anyone else? All right, thank you very much. Okay, our next item is our Legislative
Advocacy for the Virginia General Assembly.
Keith Markel: All right, this discussion came out of your work session, your planning retreat in
January, where you all brought up the topic and wanted to discuss further the possibility of contracting
with an outside firm to provide advocacy or lobbyist support for your legislative program and support
and representation in Richmond. Just by way of a little background, currently the Town Council's
legislative program is supported by Town staff only. That's made up of the Deputy Town Manager, the
Town Attorney, the Public Information Officer, the former Public Information Officer.
We have this core team all in a very part-time capacity to work with you all to develop the program,
then to represent that and monitor activities in Richmond. We developed that, as you know, in the fall.
Well try to move that back a little earlier this year, and then it's ready to go in January. We work in the
fall to try to get buy -in from the legislators to develop and push for those bills. The Town staff tracks
those bills, communicates with the legislators. Outside of that, the Virginia Municipal League provides
the tracking services and advocacy. You all get those briefings. We have Local Government Day in
Richmond in January or February.
VML is watching things closely in person and providing those calls to action when certain legislation is
coming through that is of high interest to local governments. That's how it's currently set up. You do
have several options if you wanted to go to that next level of providing additional support for the Town
of Leesburg, one of which would be to hire a lobbyist for a specific issue or task. This is something
probably in the ballpark of $20,000 if you had a specific bill or piece of legislation that you'd like them
to advocate for and shepherd through the process representing you in Richmond more specifically
and making the rounds.
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You could also hire a lobbyist to develop the Town's legislative program or a strategy for the Town's
legislative program. It wouldn't be looking at specific legislation where they would be specifically
advocating on your behalf in Richmond, but this would be more global in developing that strategy.
Again, probably in the $20,000 range. You can also hire a firm to follow all legislation that may have
an impact on Leesburg or local government. This is similar to what Loudoun County does. Here you'd
be $50,000 and on up, so hundreds of thousands of dollars depending on the level of support and
advocacy you'd be looking at there.
The fourth option is to hire an in-house legislative coordinator, which would be a full-time position for
someone to just really focus on the legislative program and do your direct advocacy in Richmond.
Those are the four, to break down to give you a little sense of what the options are from staff
standpoint. Considerations for you. First you have to ask, does the Town have legislation that you
really want to see adopted? Something that's critical that you really see the investment being made to
really push for.
Does the Town want to take a more active role in the legislative policies in Richmond? Do you want to
play a more significant role there? Some of the larger localities in Virginia do. Then does the Town
want to significantly modify our current legislative program? If you see any major changes, major
revamps to that, it might be appropriate to bring in an outside firm to help think through that process
as well. Wth that, ready for discussion.
Mayor Burk: Okay, are there any questions on this? Mr. Bagdasarian, are you-- No, okay. You've
given us the options for legislative support. We've just talked about the fact that we don't know who is
going to be our next legislators. I'm not sure that this is the right year to do it. Because everything's up
in the air, and we're not sure where everything is at this point. From my point of view, I would think
that maybe this would be something we might want to look at next year, but I'm not sure this year. I
don't see anything on the horizon that's going to be a major thing to take down to Richmond.
Keith Markel: I would agree with you from the staff perspective that this I think, really, from our point
of view, will be a relationship -building year to build those relationships, to talk through the process,
educate the legislators on Leesburg, and what your legislative program looks like, as they get their
footing and understanding of how Richmond works and how the General Assembly functions. VML
doesn't hold high hopes for this year being a real big year for big legislation just because there are
going to be so many new faces.
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Keith Markel: New people, okay. Is there anyone-- Oh, yes, sir?
Council Member Zach Cummings: I'm sorry. I hit my button after you stopped talking. I don't agree
with everything that you just said about this coming year, and its maybe not the time. My only
question is, Richmond is kind of its own world, just like DC is its own world when it comes to
legislation, and we don't know what we don't know. I don't know if maybe there's, again, maybe not
this year, maybe put in the future, an opportunity, maybe not to hire someone, but to at least engage
someone who knows Richmond to give us a lay of the land. If there is a path forward to needing
somebody there, or on retainer, to help us as a Town.
I agree that now it's probably not the right time. With all the changes happening, its a lot more, we
need to wait and see what happens, but as we move forward maybe having a conversation with
someone a little bit more knowledgeable about the day-to-day inner workings of Richmond. If we
would find some value in having someone I think that's a good first conversation before we jump into
hiring either a firm or a lobbyist or creating a brand new position.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cimino -Johnson.
Council Member Todd Cimino -Johnson: Yes, thank you. My question is, does staff feel one of
these options is something that they would like to see? I guess, how would that change how we
interact with Richmond at the moment because it sounds like it's a lot of people who have split
positions like you that are interacting?
Keith Markel: In the past, that's worked fine when we don't have a real aggressive legislative
program or specific legislation that you really want to see approved. The good news is, we may have
some friends in Richmond here in the coming year, depending on how the election turns out, and
folks that are going to be very familiar with Leesburg, which could be a very easy path for us to have
good relationships, or we may have folks that don't know a thing about Leesburg or very little.
That would be that relationship -building. I think the question really is, if you all have a piece of key
legislation that you want to see be successful, that's really where I think the value comes in in bringing
in an outside firm to help shepherd that policy through where it might, they just have the extra time
and the ability, and really just the presence of being able to be in Richmond day in day out to make
those early morning meetings, when they pop up at the last minute. Just having that presence there,
and people that are familiar as you say, really can be a benefit, if you have specific things in your
program that you really want to advocate for.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Right, I think Leesburg is unique. The size of our Town and what
we need and where we're located. I was looking at the list of counties today, and there's 133 counties
in Virginia. If Leesburg was a County, we would be number 38 of that. I think we have a little bit of a
different take on what we need. We all know that we're left out of a lot of things. It would be good to
have someone lobbying for us. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Anyone else? All right, I don't see anybody interested in moving forward at this point.
Thank you very much. Appreciate the information. The next item is the review of the charter of each
board and commission. Mr. Dentler?
Kaj Dentler: No staff presentation. You had asked at your January retreat to have a discussion on the
charter of the boards and commissions. Mainly your focus was, is their purpose matching up with
what's your goals are? Are they accomplishing the things that you want them to accomplish? Are they
addressing the big items? There's no specific presentation beyond that. We do have on the board on
the screen for you the different Commissions if there's something you wanted to talk about
specifically, but that is it.
Mayor Burk: Okay, is there anything after having read this anybody want to talk about? Yes, sir.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: There does seem to be some confusion as to who's actually eligible to serve
on some of these commissions. I know what it says in the agenda packet in terms of either a Town
resident or a business owner and yet we know there are exceptions to that rule. Do we need to clarify
this for each and every commission? Are there differing regulations for different commissions?
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Kaj Dentler: In your packet, we provided a summary chart that tried to address that. This gives you
the membership and the compensation, but primarily the membership criteria of the different boards
and commissions that may help with some of your questions there.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: 1'11 go through that. All right, thanks. What you're saying is you don't feel that
at this point we really need to do any clarification of that?
Kaj Dentler: It's the boards and commissions belong to the Council, so there's no issues from our
end and it's up to Council if you wanted to change anything.
Mayor Burk: 1 was going to ask the very same question about the membership of each of the
different commissions. That's one thing that I was interested in looking at because there are some
that say that you have to live in the Town. Some say you can live in the Town or you can have a
business in the Town or you can be an employee in the Town. There's some differences within
different commissions. That's one thing I would like to see tightened up so that we have a better idea
of who can serve. Do we want people that work here, but don't live here to serve on a Town
commission? That would be where my focus would be.
Christopher Spera: Madam Mayor, most of those exceptions relate to technical skills, particular
technical skills. For example, if you need an architect or if you need someone who's an environmental
scientist or something like that. Generally, the rule of either being a Town resident or a business
owner applies across the board. Then there are some exceptions that are tailored to specific subject
matters. Now, if you don't want those, we can certainly revisit them, but generally those exceptions
are related to specific subject matter expertise. Eileen, as the Town Clerk, is the one who deals with
this on a day-to-day basis, and she reminded me that even with those other exceptions, there's still
the four resident requirement for any commissioner.
Mayor Burk: Four of the members of any commission have to be Leesburg residents.
Christopher Spera: Or business owners.
Mayor Burk: Or business owners.
Christopher Spera: Even when you have the technical requirement, you still have to meet that four
requirement.
Mayor Burk: Yes, but the four, they don't necessarily have to live in Town. It could be a business
owner in Town.
Christopher Spera: Correct.
Mayor Burk: They may be somebody that really doesn't-- somebody that lives in Florida and comes
out once a month to be on a commission because 1 have a business in Town and we had that
situation. That would be something I would like to look at. How would we move this forward? I guess
is my next question to you, to look at the requirements?
Christopher Spero: My suggestion would be to have a work session discussion specifically about
that. We could identify for you those specific exceptions and give you a snapshot, if you will, of the
current membership to see in what categories everybody falls. Then if you wanted to tighten it up,
obviously that would be a change to the Town Code and you could direct me to prepare that.
Mayor Burk: All right. Mr. Cimino -Johnson.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. My question is for the Town
Manager or staff about, have any of these boards or commissions ever come forward and said, "Hey,
we would like to expand into this or that, or this isn't useful anymore"?
Kaj Dentler: Can you maybe a little more specific, useful in the direction that they're given or the
membership or both?
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Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Both.
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Kaj Dentler: Well, I would say it maybe a few times over my long time here, yes, and that's probably
why you have some of the inconsistencies. If there's Airport Commission or Economic Development
Commission that maybe wanted to expand their membership to business owners, versus just
residents. Those have been reactions to that. Only a few over the years and certainly the Airport
Commission had the recent situation.
Mayor Burk: The Residential Traffic Commission occasionally, we asked them to look at something
that's not residential. It comes from us to them. They don't--
Kaj Dentler: Correct.
Mayor Burk: The only other one I could think of.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Okay, yes, I'm just thinking in terms of, not saying this is what I
would advocate for but maybe the Commission on Public Art said, "Hey, we would like to add
'entertainment' to that name. We expand that scope based on things that they would like to see or
include that's already happening in the Town but doesn't really have a board or commission attached
to it.
Mayor Burk: We must certainly consider that if someone brought that forward, but were the ones that
determine what the commissions and boards are. If someone wanted to come forward they could do
that. It would be our decision at that paint.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Right, Right, okay. Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Yes, Mr.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: I can't remember who brought this up as an item. Was it Council Member
Bagdasarian or was it you.
Mayor Burk: I think it was Council Member Cimino -Johnson.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: I forget who actually asked this to be on the —No, about this.
Council Member Kari Nacy: It was at our work session.
Mayor Burk: It was at our work session, but I think it was your issue.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Oh, yeah.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Okay.
Mayor Burk: It was his issue.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: I just wanted to be sure we were covering any concerns that may have been.
Mayor Burk: Yes. I got it. [laughs] I would like to see if there are four people that would agree to have
a discussion at a work session on just the membership requirements of the different boards and
commissions. Mr. Bagdasarian, Ms. Nacy, everybody. [chuckles] Okay, Thank you. All right -
Council Member Ara Bagdasarian: I've got --
Mayor Burk: -the next one is the proposed amendment of --
Council Member Bagdasarian: -- one more comment. Yes.
Mayor Burk: We're done.
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Council Member Bagdasarian: We're done.
Mayor Burk: We're done. [chuckles]
Council Member Bagdasarian: No. We can't be done.
Mayor Burk: Yes, Mr. Bagdasarian.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Okay, No. I also think it's important that as the needs of the
community or the Town changes. This is not like this is your chance. If we don't modify things
currently, then that's it. I sent an email this afternoon. That might be something we want to consider
depending on the current landscape of things. The direction to the commissions come from the
Council.
Mayor Burk: Correct. Okay, proposed amendment to the noise ordinance of the noise ordinance. Mr.
Spera is doing this one.
Christopher Spera: I know that, Madam Mayor, this is your favorite topic.
Mayor Burk: It is my favorite topic. Excuse me while I go screaming from the room.
Christopher Spero: What were [crosstalk] but as was the case, the last time I brought something to
you related to the noise ordinance. What I'm trying to do is correct something very specific as
opposed to opening up the entire thing. The way that the current ordinance is drafted with respect to
holders of an amplified noise permit is, I'll say, less than clear. It seems you can interpret it to say that
even if you have a permit, you still have to be no louder than plainly audible from 50 feet. There are
competing interpretations. There are some permit holders who believe they can be as loud as they
want to be, within the hours of allowed amplified noise. It is not a model of clarity.
What I would like to do is amend this specific section of the noise ordinance so that we can make it
clear. Okay, here's the bundle of rights you get when you have a permit. Here's how loud you can be.
I don't think that a change in the hours is necessary, but I know that Lieutenant Allegra's here tonight
from the Police Department. I know that this is something that they deal with all the time and it's not
super clear and the businesses are confused, and it's not as clear as it could be. What wed like to do
is make it a little more clear. Here's the bundle of rights you get. You get your permit.
Here's what the noise standard is. Here's haw loud it can be when you're operating lawfully under
your permit. Then here's when that stops. Again, the hours that are already in there wouldn't be
changed. Then when you get a permit, we would also issue with the permit a best practices checklist.
What we would do is suggest to the permit holder that when you follow the best practices, that's going
to reduce the number of complaints you're going to get about your venue. It will also give you what I'm
referring to as a safe harbor when the Police show up so that basically you can say, "Okay, I did the
things on the checklist, and I'l l turn it down, but don't cite me because I did the things you asked me to
do."
The idea is to try and encourage people to get permits, try and make a clear enforcement standard so
that we know how loud somebody can be when they have a permit, and give them some guidance as
to ways they can minimize their impact on the community. Our resident electric guitar player Mr.
Bagdasarian has been very helpful in helping me work through this. Particularly with the best
practices, he obviously as a musician has some ideas about things that can happen at a live music
event to minimize the impact on the community. Council Member Bagdasarian if you want to talk
about that for a minute.
Mayor Burk: Excuse me?
Christopher Spera: Yes.
Mayor Burk: I didn't hear your last-- What did you just say?
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Christopher Spero: I was going to ask Mr. Bagdasarian if he wanted to weigh in on our best
practices since he helped develop them. Is that okay?
Mayor Burk: You are doing that through the chair of the meeting?
Christopher Spera: Oh, my apologies.
Mayor Burk: Did you have a request?
Christopher Spera: Would it be all right if Mr. Bagdasarian went through the list of best practices?
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian, would you like to say a few words?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Why yes, thank you.
Christopher Spera: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I appreciate that. I apologize for the oversight.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Thank you, yes. Like Mr. Spera mentioned, the objective here is to
provide clarification across the board in making sure that everyone's on the same page from the
venues to the residents and law enforcement. There is a level of clarity but provide that additional
guidance. Through a number of discussions with different artists that perform in downtown Leesburg
outdoors with amplified music and some of the venue managers, the recommendation was to create
these best practices, some guidelines that you can employ to keep the music al a level that fits within
the guidelines and preserves the viability of outdoor music in downtown Leesburg is that is certainly a
draw, but also is respectful of neighbors.
Some of the guidelines and best practices we identified was, number one, don't amplify drum kits.
Because just the sound of an acoustic drum kit is that at that level without being amplified, it sets the
overall balance with the PA system for guitars, vocals, everything else. Utilizing a decibel meter. Now,
this is something that I'd Ike Mr. Spera to also address, the fact that we don't have a decibel -based
system, but you can still utilize a decibel meter as far as a best practice. How are we at a certain level
or certain threshold that you can keep the levels at a certain place, pointing to speakers away from
residents, time management, checking your volume periodically, but the bottom line is being a good
neighbor communicating with neighbors, and that you're having amplified sound. Those are just some
of the guidelines.
Christopher Spera: And so we are clear, I'm not advocating moving to a decibel -based system.
Mayor Burk: That was exactly what I was just going to ask you. Because the Police previously came
to us and said "No, please don't do that."
Christopher Spore: I had a negative experience with doing that in Alexandria, where we went to a
decibel -based system. Made a decision to buy a limited number of decibel meters. They were not
enough to have one in every patrol car that might respond to a noise complaint. Ultimately, the
decibel meters ended up with the environmental staff who work nine to five. They were almost never
available for an evening noise complaint. Unless you're going to spend a bunch of money and put
decibel meters in every Police car and engage in the regular certification that any meter that's being
used for law enforcement, just like a radar gun has to have a certification on a regular cycle.
Typically, it's 90 days you have to have that certification, or &se the results of the radar gun could be
thrown out the same thing with the decibel meter. It's a pretty labor-intensive thing and you have to
have a lot of them. Because you never know who on patrol is going to be responding to the noise
complaint. The decibel -based approach is not what we are advocating here for a Town and a Police
Department of our size. Its not super clear. We want to incentivize people to get permits, but we also
want to make the bundle of rights they get with the permit as clear as we can.
Acknowledging that, as Mr. Bagdasarian said, live music is an attraction for the Town, but it also has
an impact on the community and we want to balance that. We feel like a reasonable distance -based
standard that applies during the hours when amplified music is allowed, is the right way to go. That's
easier for law enforcement to apply and enforce. A set of best practices that's designed to minimize
Page 8lMay 8, 2023
the impact on the community, and a rewrite of some of the more ambiguous portions of this to make it
clear who can do what, when. That is what we are looking for guidance on.
Mayor Burk: Having gone through this multiple limes I will say that the best practices, most certainly
they're great, but if you don't have a manager or a band that's willing to honor those best practices,
you're still going to have problems with the noise. Why are you changing it from 50 feet to 100 feet?
Christopher Spera: Well, obviously it can be louder. We think that, when you hold a permit, the
music should be, without fear of citation, audible at a farther distance. We don't want to make it so
loud, 500 feet, that would be a lot That would be be awfully loud. We're trying to pick a distance that
where the plainly audible standard gives the permit holder something beyond just the normal standard
of 50 feet, while at the same time not giving them carte blanche to be as loud as they want, which is
how some of these venues interpret our current ordinance.
Mayor Burk: I do agree with the drum kit not amplifying that. That most certainly would be a good
addition. Anybody else have any questions on this? Mr. Wilt.
Council Member Patrick Wilt: Yes. Thanks, Chris. In the ordinance, the standard of plainly audible,
can you describe what that is?
Christopher Spera: Right. Plainly audible is a distance based standard so that the words in music
are clear to the listener. In this case, it would be the, the law enforcement officer that responds that
the the words in music are clear, not muffled or dimmed in any way at whatever distance we said is
the standard.
Council Member Wilt: Okay.
Christopher Spera: I think we all have to acknowledge, the plainly audible standard is not super tight
and it can change over the course of an evening as atmospheric conditions change or temperatures
drop. All that can have an impact on how sound carries. It's not perfect, but it's one that any
responding officer can attempt to enforce as opposed to the whole decibel meter thing, which is
expensive and potentially subject to challenge if we don't go through the recertification and testing of
the meters.
Council Member Wilt: Okay, what I would assume it means just from the English dictionary is I can
hear the music from where I'm standing.
Christopher Spera: We have a definition, there's a definition of plainly audible, and it does speak to
being able to clearly hear something [crosstalk] as opposed to it being muffled.
Council Member Wilt: I'm just trying to calibrate to that standard, because I can think as the owner of
a venue, and I've had Frayed Knots play at our place half a dozen times. The venue is 216 feet in
length, with the stage at the extreme end of the property. At every single performance I can hear them
on the sidewalk, which is 216 feet away. I'm just wondering about 100 foot, plainly audible [crosstalk]
Christopher Spera: From the property line, not from the source.
Council Member Wilt: Not from the source?
Christopher Spera: From the property line. Yes, sir.
Council Member Wilt: Okay, that makes a difference in terms of where the placement of the stage is,
again but the sound will travel hundreds of feet.
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Christopher Spera: Potentially, and that depends upon the surrounding buildings and atmospheric
conditions. It's not perfect. If you want to be super precise, you spend the money and you go to the
decibel meters, but again, that's very labor intensive, very expensive and its not just a one-time
expense, because you've got the regular certification to enforce.
Page 9IMay 8, 2023
Council Member Wilt: Okay. What's the citation?
Christopher Spera: It's a class 2 misdemeanor.
Council Member Wilt: Okay. Honestly, as a venue owner, this would probably-- I'd probably stop
hosting outdoor music at my venue, and I might anticipate that others would too.
Christopher Spera: Right. That's not what were trying to do, but an ordinance is currently being
enforced for amplified music, it's supposed to be 50 feet What were trying to do is extend additional
regs, not --
Council Member Wilt: No, I understand.
Christopher Spera: Maybe 100 feet's not the right number. Maybe it's a different number
Council Member Wilt: Yes. We had property, we had calls when we did host music. As it was
applied in those instances that we probably benefited from some of the confusion, because in the
cases the responding officer said, "Do you have a permit?" We'd say, "Yes." They go, "Have a good
night," and they departed. I think some of the confusion came up.
Christopher Spera: That's not the way that LPD is currently enforcing.
Council Member Wilt: Right. There was a change in enforcement where then I know the conflicting
ordinances became aware.
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Christopher Spera: Right. I think the problem with the prior interpretation is that that view was, you
could be as loud as you wanted as long as you had a permit. That's probably not right either. There
should probably be some outside limit on, even if that interpretation were to be the one that was
applied, that's pretty tough on the community to just say there's no limit. Even if you have an amplified
noise, just because you got a permit, you'd be as loud as you want. That's kind of tough.
Council Member Wilt: Right. I think this change clarifies it. I think it clarifies it in a manner, as I said,
as a venue owner, it clarifies it enough far me that I would stop outdoor music entirely.
Christopher Spera: I'm not sure that's the intent, so maybe the way in the further discussion of it,
maybe it's a different distance. I don't know the answer. I think that would be part of our process and
part of the noticing it up and having a public hearing and an investigation to-- Council Member
Bagdasarian done this on the spare time talking to some people, but I think we'd have the opportunity
as staff to reach out to folks and get a little more input from the affected members of the community.
Council Member Wilt: Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian.
Council Member Bagdasarian: Yes. Mr. [unintelligible], once again with the confusion, there was
an issue in November where there were different interpretations of what was allowable within the
permitted hour or permitted time, and what is allowable? Certainly, it would seem the only approach
would be, because I'm actually mapping out 100 feet from Black Walnut. You can barely get you down
to Auto Solutions from your property line, but the thing is maybe we do look at a revisiting the distance
if that's the approach if we're not going to move to a decibel base meter, because there needs to be
something a little bit more objective, because it's purely subjective currently.
The objective is not to tamper down the live music. We could do live music downtown and yes, I'm
one of the folks that are out there playing with my band outdoors, amplified live music, but there are
ways that we can do it at an approach that is beneficial to even the folks that are in attendance. You
don't want to have the music so loud, you can't even have a conversation. Maybe examining different
distances might be the approach if we don't move to a decibel base meter, which it does not sound
like were going to do. Thanks.
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Mayor Burk: From experience, I'm going to tell you that's going to be problematic. Anyway, Ms. Nacy.
Council Member Nacy: Walk me through what happens. I own a business, I'm playing music.
Somebody calls and complains that my music is too loud. The Police Department shows up, and right
now they ask if I have a permit, and then how are they judging the 50 feet of sound?
Christopher Spera: They stand 50 feet from the property line, and if it's plainly audible, they go
inside and --
Council Member Nacy: Okay, so they use their feet and measure out 50 feet. If it's plainly audible,
it's in violation and they get shut down?
Christopher Spore: Typically, they --
Council Member Nacy: Or they're asked to turn it down?
Christopher Spera: They're asked to turn it down. If they don't comply, then there would be other
ramifications. Typically, my understanding and talking to Lieutenant Allegra and Captain Smith is that
typically there's not a lot of citations that the businesses tend to be generally cooperative, either
reducing the volume or ending the performance if there's an observation by the officer that it's too
loud.
Council Member Nacy: Yes. What if, let's say we change the distance, right? My business sits up on
a hill. The acoustics, the rain, whatever, the atmosphere that day carries the sound. I'm not even
playing that loudly, right? Carries the sound 700 feet away, somebody calls and complains. How can
you hold someone in violation of that?
Christopher Spera: That's really the idea of the best practices and the safe harbor, if you will, that
essentially, if you follow these suggestions, if you don't mic the drum kit and you've oriented your
speakers the proper way, and you've done periodic checks with a decibel meter to see how your
noise is projecting, and you've let your neighbors know in advance that you have a performance this
evening, and all the things that Mr. Bagdasarian alluded to in his list, then that would give you a safe
harbor from a citation.
Basically, we all have to acknowledge that the sound isn't hard to predict and due to the surrounding
buildings or the temperature or humidity or whatever it may be, the sound happens to be carrying a
certain way that evening. If you can show I complied with the best practices, you're not going to get
cited. It's going to be maybe you got to turn the volume down, maybe you got to do something else.
you're not going to be penalized with a class two misdemeanor.
Council Member Nacy: This just feels like such a slippery slope.
Christopher Spera: Yes, and that is why the noise ordinances, they're not easy.
Council Member Nacy: No one's ever going to be happy. There's never going to be 100% of the
community that's happy. There's never going to be 100% of the businesses that are happy. We
definitely have to find some happy medium. That doesn't take away from the fact that we've got
something downtown that we call our arts and cultural district. It just seems funny to me to say, here's
our arts and cultural district, but it's got to be like shh, shh. [laughs] It's got to be a very quiet arts and
cultural district. [laughs] I understand the conundrum, absolutely. I don't know that 100 feet is that
seems very, I don't know, short.
Christopher Spera: It was a placeholder.
Council Member Nacy: Yes. What would you say the distance of wall to wall in here is?
Christopher Spera: 50 feet?
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Council Member Nacy: That's crazy, right? Our current ordinance means the Mayor couldn't play her
guitar. If I lived there, I could be like, "Slop playing your guitar."
Christopher Spera: That's what our Code's currently drafted. It could be an acoustic guitar.
Council Member Nacy: Okay. I know I'm not really adding any helpful dialogue here.
Mayor Burk: I think the conflict comes with people that are on their balconies or in their backyards
and they don't want to listen to music. That's where the balance is. That's where it's most difficult.
We've had situations where I live behind the Safeway and I've heard music being played from
downtown. Now, it doesn't particularly bother me. I don't care. I think the people that were on King
Street, they went crazy and they couldn't use their balconies and their backyards. That became a
huge issue because we weren't considering their hearing from the public, what you'll find very
interesting.
Council Member Nacy: This has to go to a public hearing, right?
Christopher Spera: That's correct. This would be a change to the Code. It may be that maybe all you
want us to do is have the best practices and not do.
Council Member Nacy: I'm curious what, and I'm not talking about Loudoun County, I'm talking about
like other localities similar in size to us that have the same ordinance. I'd be curious to know what
some of those are.
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Christopher Spero: Many of them went to-- so a little bit of a backstory in, I think it was 2014, the
State Supreme Court threw out the Virginia Beach Noise ordinance and because you had to have an
objective standard, so just being too loud, which is what a lot of noise ordinances said was not
enough. Many jurisdictions moved to decibel -based systems. Those that didn't did the plainly audible
from a distance. That's the benchmarking when you look around, 1 would say that more jurisdictions
went to decibel -based systems than to the other, but it's a function of cost and who's doing the
enforcing.
Council Member Nacy: Okay. Thank you. I'm not sure I love a hundred feet. I don't know.
Christopher Spera: It might not be the right answer. I think that we have to go through a process to
figure what the right answer is but to me, you should have more rights when you get a permit than
when you don't. Those rights should not be unlimited and I think that's the problem with the competing
interpretations. The more strict interpretation is that whether you have a permit or not, the 50 -foot
standard applies. The more liberal interpretation is that I can be as loud as I want to be, as long as I'm
within the permit hours.
Council Member Nacy: I understand our officers need to be able to enforce something.
Christopher Spera: Right.
Council Member Nacy: That's the end goal that we all want, right? We don't want it to be a case
either where the officers are showing up and just saying, well, somebody complained and you're too
loud and we don't really know which ordinance to follow, so we're shutting you down.
Christopher Spera: We don't want to discourage something that makes the Town a vibrant and
desirable place to visit. While at the same time, we don't want to be too intrusive on the community,
and we certainly don't want to put our officers in this situation where they don't have a clear standard
for them to apply.
Council Member Nacy: Ok. Thank you.
Christopher Spera: Those are all the things we're trying to balance and --
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cimino -Johnson.
Page 12IMay 8, 2023
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I was going to follow up with Council
Member Nacy, what she was saying about other localities. Could we see what other towns and cities
are doing, what their rules look like?
Christopher Spera: Sure. I had a survey prepared and so I'd be happy to share that with you.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Vice Mayor.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Thank you. All right. First of all, I'm on. Yes. Good. This is certainly an
evolving situation and I suspect this is going to be an ongoing discussion for a while. The downtown is
an evolving place, and I would point out that unlike the Airport complaints we get, the residents in this
case, were here first and we have to listen to them and try to make their lives as pleasant as possible
in an evolving situation. I don't see how we can ignore it and simply bow indifference to the
businesses and I'm not trying to create problems with businesses either. The questions become,
where's the compromise? It's an evolving situation with a changing demographic. Over a period of
time, perhaps this will become less of an issue, but were going to keep talking about it. I would also
point out we seem to have an increasing number of venues, not fewer.
Somehow the venues seem to be working with the regulations we have now as onerous or not as
they may be. If we relax that a little bit, so be it. When we talk about a hundred feet from the property
line, and I would offer, I can think of very few venues that would be dealing with this problem that are
as large as this. Many of the venues are much smaller, which means their property lines are right
there. Oftentimes, while we might consider the sound moving in one direction, not a problem, they're
hard up against residences directly adjacent to the property line.
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Oftentimes therein lies the rub and amplification notwithstanding, it's the low notes that oftentimes are
the biggest problem as opposed to the volume because they travel much further and they cause
windows to rattle and it can be a real issue. I'm curious to your Council Member Cimino -Johnson's
question about other localities. I sent-- not in jest either, I sent an email to the Council and several
members of the staff about portable trans, very light acoustic shells, which come in a variety of forms
and fashions and designs and go directly behind the band. Of course, then direct the sound in a very
specific direction. At least you are protecting property owners directly behind the stage, which is often
where the biggest problem comes.
Now, admittedly, it also tends to focus the sound a bit more [laughs]. In the other direction, maybe it
becomes a bit more of a problem, but perhaps in that direction, you're going to have less resistance. It
should also, by the way, provide a better listening experience for the audience, because then the
band doesn't have to be cranked up. You can still hear the sound pretty well and carry on a
conversation. I'm not trying to place undue burdens on businesses, but again, we have to come up
with compromises that work both for them and for the residents. If this is an option and it's one I would
like us to look at and see.
In certain situations, this is going to have to be a must because otherwise you're too close to the
residents in directly adjacent to the property, and there's no other way you're going to be able to deal
with the situation. We should at least be having that discussion, in my view. Ongoing, evolving, and
let's look at some technical technological options that might help us better deal with this situation.
Thanks.
Mayor Burk: That do you want from us tonight?
Christopher Spera: Based on the discussions on everyone's comments, I don't know that I heard
four folks who wanted me to undertake an amendment. It sounds like you need more information, you
want information on what other jurisdictions are doing, what other technologies might be available.
Mayor Burk: We like some input from the Police Officers also.
Christopher Spera: Sure. Put it on for an upcoming work session within the next month so I want to
let this.
Page 131May 8, 2023
Mayor Burk: I have four people that want to continue this discussion in a work session.
Christopher Spera: Wth more specific information. Would that be helpful?
Mayor Burk: Everybody? Okay. Everybody. All right. Thank you.
Christopher Spera: We will simply continue under the current ordinance for now. Trust our officers
as they always do, to work with both the people who call and complain and the businesses, and trust
in their judgment in the near term. Then hopefully give them some more specific instructions once
you've had an opportunity to hear more from us.
Mayor Burk: Thank you.
Christopher Spero: All right, thank you.
Mayor Burk: Okay, that takes us to future Council meetings and agenda topics. Mr. Cimino -Johnson?
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Yes. I have a couple of items I would like to add. First I would
like to have a discussion on building an outside volleyball court. I would like to first get a
recommendation for locations from the Parks and Rec Committee and Rich Williams.
Mayor Burk: Have you gone to the Parks and Rec Commission?
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: No, this is asking them. I've already gone to Rich. Yes. I sent
him a budget question about it.
Mayor Burk: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. What are you asking then? What are you asking?
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: I'm asking for the discussion on number one, building an outside
volleyball court, but before that, I would like it to go to Park's and Rec for locations.
Mayor Burk: All right. Are there four people that want to have a discussion on building an outdoor
volleyball rink and sending it to the Parks and Recs far locations?
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: The second item is under compensation and benefits. I would
like to have a future discussion on allowing Council Members purchasing benefits through the Town.
I'd like to know from staff the cost if the Council Member fully paid for the benefits. This would not be a
Town cost, but allowing simply the Council Member to opt into insurance, paying for it fully.
Mayor Burk: You are asking to find out how much it would cost for a Council Member to have
benefits as if they were an employee,
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Not as if they were employed because they'd be paying the full
cost but they would be on the plan.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Dentler, does he need four votes for that to get that information?
Kaj Dentler: I think if Council isn't interested in it, it's wise that the majority would want that
information, but I certainly can. I don't know how much effort it'll take us. I don't think it'll be a lot.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Cimino -Johnson would like to get information on the cost of a Council Member
getting full-- how much it would cost a Council Member to get full benefits?
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Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Yes.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that are interested in doing that? Okay.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Yes. Because we would also have to actually pass it. We just it
just can't happen.
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Mayor Burk: This is just information.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Yes.
Mayor Burk: All right.
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Finally, rd like a discussion on an aide or dedicated office
support for Council Members.
Mayor Burk: Are there six people --aide for Council Members. All in favor of having a discussion
about aides for Council Members?
Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Yes, just a discussion. I'm not asking for a vote.
Mayor Burk: All right. Okay. Mr. Cummings?
Council Member Cummings: Yes. I wanted to see if we could do a work session to look into
community composting program for the Town of Leesburg, and I have some information I can forward
along to staff that I was sent by a Town resident.
Mayor Burk: Okay, so you want to have a discussion on community composting?
Council Member Cummings: Composting, yes.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would be interested in that discussion? AM right. There are
four on that one. Anything else?
Council Member Cummings: I did have a question. The Council, a couple of weeks ago, a couple of
meetings ago, had talked about amending the Zoning Ordinance on hotels, and I don't know if staff
has sufficient direction from us to move forward or if we need to instruct them on what were looking
far. I know I asked the question, and then I ignored the answer, so this is my fault.
Mayor Burk: I assume that James is working on it as we speak.
Kaj Dentler: James David, Planning Director, is working on the request or the direction that Council
gave. We are certainly aware of different individual Council Members' opinions of what the number of
rooms should be or should not be. Planning Commission will know that, but there is no majority
direction to do that. If you wish to have that, then you should let me know that accordingly. Otherwise,
they do know your individual opinion.
Council Member Cummings: That's fine. That's all. 1 want to make sure that they were moving
forward.
Mayor Burk: Right. Mr. Wilt.
Council Member Wilt: This is following a message rd sent earlier based on Liberty Parking Lot with
a potential change to access the Liberty Lot from South Street, which is currently restricted to exit
only. I'd like to inquire if we have support for directing the staff to examine this work and then return it
to Council with details on a plan and cost to redesign the access point.
Mayor Burk: Are there four people that would be interested in the Liberty Lot parking discussion?
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Can I offer a comment first?
Mayor Burk: Sure.
Vice Mayor Steinberg: Renee offered her opinion in terms of the feasibility of that. I'm also
wondering, given that were just getting into a conversation about what's going to happen at the
Liberty Lot, I'm wondering if a conversation about improving that access is timely, since we may
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spend the money to do it and then completely undo it in a relatively short period of time. Especially if
we go to remediate the dump. That's my only concern here.
Mayor Burk: That most certainly can be part of the discussion. Does that satisfy you, or do you need
to amend?
Vice Mayor Steinberg: No.
Mayor Burk: Okay, so in the discussion, you'll also talk about the implications of doing it now when
we're also looking at changing the whole Liberty Lot dynamic.
Kaj Dentler: The discussion will be for Renee to bring forward the scope of work to evaluate, or are
you providing me the funds to go ahead and do this study?
Mayor Burk: No. He's asking for an examination, right? Correct.
Kaj Dentler: I just want to clarify what I'm being asked to do because --
Council Member Wilt: Based on our previous communication, Kaj, you said you can cover the
proposal to examine for the scope of work, which I was a topographic survey, conceptual layouts, and
a third item. That no initial funds were necessary.
Kaj Dentler: We have funding, we have enough sufficient funding in our studies account, so to speak,
a line item that we can cover the funding. We don't need any additional funds. That's not the issue.
What I wanted to make sure is Council wants us to go ahead and do the work and then report back on
the funding.
Or do you want to talk about the work before we actually do the study? I have the funds. Do you want
me to do the work now or do you want to talk about it before we do the work?
Council Member Wilt: My proposal was do the work as proposed and return with the results of that
with the conceptual layout and the survey work correct.
Kaj Dentler: You and I are on the same page. I just didn't want to make sure Council knew that, but
I'm fine with that.
Mayor Burk: I'm going to re -ask people to- Yes, go ahead.
Council Member Cummings: I'm sorry. I just have a question. This is a study about, I just want to
make sure I'm clear cause I know I've read your, the email, but this is a study about expanding the
access on what road --South Street to and from the Liberty Street Lot. I agree with what the Vice
Mayor mentioned about this could all change.
Is it the staffs opinion that going, expanding that access is a needed way to open it, the two-way
traffic? Or could we, is there another easier, much less expensive option like we do at some of the old
roads here in Loudoun County where there's a one -lane bridge where you just yield to anybody
coming and going? I saw the number and it seems like an exorbitant amount of money for a study to
expand an ingress -egress when, I mean, folks could potentially just navigate this on their own.
Kaj Dentler: Correct, to some extent. But you do have the hill and its a blind spat. The Traffic
Engineer is going to be a little leery of just making that call without some further analysis, meaning
that the risk then goes to the Town should there be accidents. There may be cheaper ways to get
there and I'm happy to explore that. They are not comfortable just making the change themselves and
putting the risk on the Town.
Council Member Cummings: We could just all take a day and stand at the top and be flaggers.
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Mayor Burk: All right then I'm going to have to ask the question again because I think I want to make
sure everybody understands and I'm going to ask you to explain it. We are voting on paying for a
study,
Kaj Dentler: Correct. Council Member Wilt has requested direction to be given to the Town Manager
to expend, I believe $13,000, I believe is the number off the top of my head, to evaluate the egress
and ingress, into Liberty Lot off of South King Street to make it accessible. Currently, you can only exit
down the hill. You cannot go up the hill to enter.
Mayor Burk: Now, Mr. Steinberg asked that the discussion also include that a consideration that
there's a dynamic that there, the partnership that may change that whole thing may take away the
whole--
Kaj Dentler: That is true, that there could be future development, whether the current proposal or a
future proposal, but that right now is an unknown not only of what and when. This particular potential
improvement is more an immediate improvement. We recognize that yes, there could be a change,
but when we can evaluate what has been proposed possibly, but that may just slow us down as I
think what we're trying to find is there a simple solution to improve the ability for people to enter and
exit that part of Liberty Lot onto South Street safely and at the least amount of costs. The longer we
look into a full proposed development or something else, it will take longer. I can't say it'll cost more,
it'll just take longer. I think we can balance out that we know there may be something just really more I
think ultimately a Council decision of whether or not you want to do this and approve that or not
versus what --
Mayor Burk: Are they four votes to do what he said? [laughs] Okay, so there was Mr. Cimino -
Johnson, Ms. Nacy, Mr. Bagdasarian. Did you vote for it? Okay, then Mr. Wit. Okay, is that it Mr.WIt?
Council Member Wilt: Yes, thank you.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Bagdasarian?
Council Member Bagdasarian: Nothing, thank you.
Mayor Burk: Ms. Nacy?
Council Member Nacy: Nothing.
Mayor Burk: Mr. Steinberg?
Vice Mayor Steinberg: I have nothing. Thanks.
Mayor Burk: Okay. I have one thing, one request. I would like to add a motion to tomorrow's meeting
for Jewish American History Month. I would need four votes for that to put it on the agenda for
tomorrow. If you saw it, it's already in the packet, so there's no major work involved in it. All right,
everyone who's good on that one. All right? That's it, can I get everybody? We got everybody. All in
favor, is there a motion to adjourn?
Vice Mayor Steinberg: So moved.
Mayor Burk: Motion to adjourn second?
Council Member Cummings: Second.
Mayor Burk: Second by Mr. Cummings. All in favor?
[crosstalk] Aye.
Mayor Burk: Opposed? All right.
Page 17IMay 8, 2023