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HomeMy Public PortalAbout2023_tcwsmin 1019_Joint Council_Planning CommissionJoint Council/Planning Commission Work,Session October 19, 2023 Ida Lee Park, Lower Level Meeting Room, 60 Ida Lee Drive NW, Leesburg, Virginia, 7:00 p.m. Mayor Kelly Burk presiding. Council Members Present: Ara Bagdasarian, Todd Cimino -Johnson, Zach Cummings, Kari Nacy, Vice Mayor Neil Steinberg and Mayor Kelly Burk. Council Members Absent: Patrick Wilt. Planning Commissioners Present: Ad Barnes, Ron Campbell, Jennifer Canton, Earl Hoovler, Gigi Robinson, Candice Tuck and Chair Brian McAfee. Planning Commissioners Absent: None. Staff Present: Town Manager Kaj Dentler, Deputy Town Manager Keith Markel, Deputy Town Attorney Christine Newton, Assistant Town Manager Kate Trask, Director of Community Development James David, Zoning. Administrator Mike Watkins, Senior Management Analyst Betsy Arnett and Clerk of Council Eileen Boeing. AGENDA ITEMS 1. Item for Discussion a. Zoning Ordinance Rewrite Update — Code Audit and Annotated Outline Mr. Brian Mabry with Kendig Keast presented the findings of the Town's Zoning Ordinance Code audit and shared the annotated outline for the Zoning Ordinance rewrite project. Mr. Mabry reviewed the following items during his presentation: • project goals • how the rewrite aligns with the Legacy Leesburg Plan • current zoning districts • land use standards • development standards • review of existing procedures • format and organizational improvements to the zoning ordinance Council Members and Planning Commissioners asked questions and provided input on specific areas of the Zoning Ordinance rewrite. Mr. Mabry and' Community Development Director James David reviewed the next steps and deliverables of the rewrite process. Mr. David added the Town Web site is a great resource to obtain project updates throughout the process. It was the consensus of both bodies to have the Planning Commission take an in-depth look at the initial sections of the draft and provide their recommendations to Council. 1 Page Joint Council/Planning Commission Work Session October 19, 2023 2. Adjournment On a motion by Vice Mayor Steinberg, seconded by Council Member Nacy, the meeting was adjourned at 8:29 p.m. Clerk of Council 2023_tcwsminTC-PCJoint1019 2IPage October 19, 2023 — Leesburg Town Council/Planning Commission Joint Work Session (Note: This is a transcript prepared by a Town contractor based on the recording of the meeting. It may not be entirely accurate. For greater accuracy, we encourage you to review the video of the meeting that is on the Town's Web site — www.leesburgva.gov or refer to the approved Council meeting minutes. Council meeting videos are retained for three calendar years after a meeting per Library of Virginia Records Retention guidelines.) James David: Mayor we request 30 minutes for tonight's presentation. Mayor Kelly Burk: 30 minutes. Any objection? Planning Commissioner Ad Barnes: That's long, not that [inaudible]. James David: We can start the clock when Mr. Mabry begins his presentation. [laughter] James David: Good evening Madam Mayor, Mr. Chair and members of the Council and the Planning Commission. I appreciate you all coming together for this joint work session tonight. We'll be focusing on the Zoning Ordinance rewriting that we're currently underway on town. Tonight is a pretty major milestone where our consultant, Brian Mabry, is visiting to present two deliverables. One is the Code Audit and the other is an annotated outline of the format of both zoning levels. Code Audit you can think of that really as a third -party critique. Mr. Mabry works for Kendig Keast Collaborative. That firm updates Zoning Ordinances across the country. Actually, at lunch today, Mr. Mabry told me they've got 31 clients right now. Some range from small towns all the way up to large cities like Oklahoma City or large counties like Knox County here Knoxville is located. They've been doing this for about 30 years. When they do that Code Audit they rely on their experience with other jurisdictions to offer critique, suggestions on how we can [inaudible]. He also assured me it's not just a cut and paste from work they've done in other jurisdictions. They really customize what they do for each client, listen to the local officials, talk to the neighborhoods, talk to stakeholders, [inaudible]. We're pleased to have him on the team. We'll learn more about the Code Audit here in a minute. The annotated outlines, really, the structure for how we're going to take some existing chapters in the Zoning Ordinance and maybe roll them up in re -sections, try and make it a more user-friendly document [inaudible]. Once we get through that, obviously there'll be time for questions and discussions about the Code Audit. We'd also like to talk about the process going forward. Staff has laid out a process in that project plan that was attached to your agenda packet. We want to make sure that Council and the Commission fee Is like we're on the right track and also if you have any of those top zoning priorities, Council members we'd love to hear from you and the Commission would love to hear from you as well. They know where the Council wants us to dig into as we get into [inaudible]. With that, I give it over to Brian Mabry. Brian Mabry: Thank you, David, and thanks everyone for having me here this evening in town. I had a good day learning even more about the town meeting with town staff, and others to continue with this project. Again, I'm Brian Mabry, Kendig Keast Collaborative. Marcia Boyle, my colleague, could not be with me because she has COVID. She's home in Pittsburg. This is a good agenda for the topics we're going to be covering in this review, in this critique of your existing regulations. No way to cover everything in your written report that's in your packet. Even covering every bullet on the PowerPoint might not be completely possible just because I'd like to be efficient and respect for your time and open it up for questions and comments. Here's the path we're taking for this presentation this evening. There are several goals for this project. Many of them are laid out in the RFP, the Request For Proposals that the town originally sent out and you all advertised for someone to update your Zoning Ordinance. One of the first goals of the project is this right here, to perform a Code Audit looking for areas that should be improved upon in the existing Zoning Ordinance, looking at legal soundness, concentrating on certain specific subjects, Page 1 'October 19, 2023 parking was one of them because that's changed a lot in the past few years and can be a hot -button issue. Improving the structure and format of the Zoning Ordinance was another thing that the town wants to accomplish, and you all want to accomplish as part of this project. Really, that third one there is one of the biggest jobs of the Zoning Ordinance, to implement the policies of the comprehensive plan. There are other jobs and goals that are part of this project. Making improvements on the Crescent Design District when that is more ready when the plan work is done for it, incorporating a punch list or wish list from staff of what they would like to see changed in the ordinance coming from years and years of administering, enforcing and interpreting the Zoning Ordinance. They have their own ideas for sure about what needs to change with it and then trying to engage the general public throughout the whole process. Many of us in the room already know some of the content on these next few slides but especially to the benefit of the general public who might be listening in on the recording or something of that nature, just to talk about what a Zoning Ordinance addresses and what it doesn't address really quickly. There's a laundry list there of typical topics that a Zoning Ordinance is going to cover. Obviously what kinds of land uses can go where and what zoning districts, what kinds of landscaping and buffering are required for particular districts and land uses, how parking and loading and stacking of the drive-throughs is handled, signs. The other bullets there are more procedural, what it takes to get a modification through the process or a rezoning, or how nonconformities or grandfathering is handled, what happens when someone, a property owner violates an ordinance, how is it enforced, what are the penalties? Then definitions at the end giving specific terms, certain specialized terms that we've used in the ordinance. The bottom line for what a Zoning Ordinance can address is it controls what land uses can go where, it can mitigate or alleviate some incompatible land uses might be located to each other through buffering or through how parking is placed or through setbacks. Helping with incompatible uses there potentially incompatible with one another get along, again providing standards for landscaping signs and lighting of the space, the review part of it. Then something to remember, it applies to private property zoning [inaudible]. It's not related really directly to how streets are laid out or their widths, that's all in the public right-of- way. This is how private property is used and what kinds of impacts it has on its neighbors and how community character is created through the regulations that go along with each zoning district. That's what a Zoning Ordinance is or what it does address. Here are some things that it does not address. It's not a property tax policy. It doesn't set a property tax rate for the town or assess properties at certain values. It doesn't lay out an annexation plan or policy, if that were to be relevant. It's more of a function of the bigger -picture planning process. It's not a capital improvements program. It doesn't set a budget or a schedule for how infrastructure will be laid out. It's not a building code either. It doesn't say how many bathrooms have to be provided or what the electrical or plumbing rules are for a certain building. Neither is it construction standards. It doesn't have rules for spacing out of manholes or how curb and gutter is to be designed or really particular details like that. Then finally it's not a unified development code. This isn't a one -stop shop document that has your zoning and your subdivision standards and a bunch of other things related to development. It does have a lot of things in it but it's not how property is subdivided and street layouts are done and easement locations, things like that. It's strictly zoning matters. Some of you may have been involved in Legacy Leesburg in its creation, many of you probably have made direct formalized recommendations and actually had a hand in adopting it, sometimes people get confused about what the difference is between a comprehensive plan and a Zoning Ordinance. You can think of it as the difference between a menu at a restaurant and a recipe or a cookbook. The comprehensive plan lays out policies for how the Town would want to grow in the future, the way a menu lays out difference options for what you might want to eat at a particular given restaurant. The menu is going to have pictures in it but it's not going to talk about how stuff is made that's on it. A Zoning Ordinance you can compare it to the cookbook like I said where there're specific instructions Page 2j0ctober 19, 2023 for how long to cook it, what you need to have, the ingredients to make it all come together. Zoning ordinances are detail -oriented. Comprehensive plans are bigger picture of broad thinking policies, ordinances, or laws that are formally adopted. Similarly, there's a character map in Legacy Leesburg and of course, any Zoning Ordinance is going to have a zoning map that goes along with it. There is differences between the two. A character map is a policy document, just like the entire plan itself. It's what provides guidance for different areas of the city and gives recommendations for the appeal of different areas, of the town. The zoning map, though, is very parcel -specific. It shows the zoning district for a given property. It is adopted by law along with the text of the ordinance. The zoning map could change many times during the year. In most places, the character map or the future land use map, as sometimes it's called in other places, does not change this often. Comparing and contrasting those two maps is important to get a feel for [inaudible] going into this process. Aligning the new regulations and the Zoning Ordinance with Legacy Leesburg is a very important part of this project. In your written report, there's a lot of detail about that. I just have one small excerpt from that part of the written report in this PowerPoint. One of the goals of Legacy Leesburg, very broad, enhance existing neighborhoods. That could mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. One of the strategies that goes along with that goal is to promote a diverse range of new housing options. Still broad, but not quite as broad as the goal was. The question is, what can the Zoning Ordinance do to bring that strategy into reality? There are certain areas in Legacy Leesburg called areas to transform. Those are the areas that the Town has decided could change in character a little bit, maybe become denser, with more types of housing in it than only maybe single-family detached housing. There are ways and things that the Zoning Ordinance can do, regulations that it can have, that will allow for other types of single-family housing within what have been your single-family detached zoning districts. There's smaller cottage courts or cottage -style housing that's small, not quite tiny houses, but close to the street in walkable areas, zero lot lines where the residence is on one side of the lot and has a bigger side yard on the other side and other options like that that could be worked into the written part of the Zoning Ordinance. We could even take it a step further and potentially add duplexes to some areas under certain conditions that would allow for more of a variety and housing types potentially promote affordability and other good things like that that most people would probably want to see the Town work. There are some places where you could have multiple housing types on a single block and certainly not everywhere, not all over Town. There are certain areas that are going to remain single-family detached and they're going to stay that way and everyone will be happy with that. There might be some areas that a mixing of housing types and a closer proximity to one another could be beneficial. Those again are those areas, designated areas to transform in the Legacy Leesburg plan. We, continuing on, with making the Zoning Ordinance implement the policies of Legacy Leesburg, reworking the zoning districts to be a big part of that as well to change the zoning districts, whether it's merging them or consolidating, potentially removing certain districts, possibly, to reflect those character areas that are in Legacy Leesburg. You call it a character map, and that's a good thing as opposed to a future land use map. That shows that you're looking at design, form and not just micromanaging land uses. It's the old way of doing zoning. It's more about the signs, the landscaping, the hardscaping, where the buildings are on a property than it is, whether it's office or a retail shop or some other thing. We will be looking at consolidating, overlapping district, merging certain districts, updating districts, of course, even if it's just the nomenclature for what they're called, and dealing with legacy districts for certain districts that might not be in the Zoning Ordinance any longer but still have proffered properties related. There's a lot of explanation of this and tables within your written report that I would not have time to really get into detail on this presentation. The bottom line is to take 13 base districts and where we are now is consolidating them to 10. Taking your special purpose and overlay districts and other than with the two airport districts you have, pretty Page 3lOctober 19, 2023 much leaving them as they are as far as their existence and whether they're merged or not and leaning towards not merging them, merging your PRC and'PRN, your two planned residential districts into one because there are some similarities with them that we thought might be making good candidates for merging. All of these mergings of districts to create a shorter list of zoning districts has several benefits. Makes the document easier for staff to administer and interpret, easier for general public to understand. All these things that can lead to more of an efficient ordinance. Making your district's intentions more clear. This bleeds over into formatting and entire list of things but using photos, using graphics to a greater extent, using tables as much as possible, just to make it really clear what the expectations are for each of the zonings. When your current ordinance was done probably 20 or so years ago, it was great for what it was at that time and it was ahead of the curve so we're wanting to, once again, be ahead of the curve on how we do zoning. For your land uses, this is a very important part of zoning even if you're concentrating more on character and form, land uses are still a big part of it. You have two sets, several sets of land use tables that show what land uses are allowed where. You've got district -by -district tables, each district showing what's allowed, and a consolidated table that really sets you up for errors and inconsistencies. By talking with staff who were saying, "What do you think would make it easier for you all to administer," look at the positives and negatives. Going with the consolidated use table was the direction that we're going to go in for this and not have so many chances duplications by having several different locations for permitted uses. Our platform, code testing platform, enCodePlus, can help with that. You can still get a view for an individual district and what uses are allowed through certain user-friendly tricks that we have but basically, there would be one solid [inaudible]. Also, as part of this, we'd be relying a lot on use categories, categorizing uses into broad groups and permitting them that way if they're similar to each other, permitting them in a singular set of districts versus unintentionally treating-- what's the difference between an attorney's office versus an engineer's office versus a travel agent if those even exist anymore. All of those uses are really similar. There's no need to treat them any differently as far as what districts they go in. This is an example from another community of land use categories and how they work. On the left is a listing of a bunch of different land uses that fall under the broad category of indoor entertainment and recreation. There's a ton of them all listed out. They're handled in the use table, which is on the right, in that red box, that one row, in one fell swoop, addresses what zoning districts, most of those land uses, are allowed. The ones that are outliers that have some negative potential impacts like sexually -oriented business, shooting range, potentially things to deal with alcohol, those are differently permitted. Those are above. Those five or six rows there on top are the outliers. Then the bottom row is everything else that's in that category that's permitted. Again, the ordinance treats similar uses similarly and then called out to similar uses. Public amenities. The Legacy Leesburg plan points out and recommends that there should be more places for people to get together, like main streets and parks and things of that nature. We think that points for it requiring open space or community amenities in new developments and even some redevelopments so that there are open space set -asides or in more urbanized context, community amenity set -asides that may not be what we think of when, traditionally, we think of open space. There are different flavors of community amenities, on that top row, the rural or suburban model that we normally think of with open space, whether it's a community garden, I don't have a park on there, but the green way is similar to that, natural areas. In an urban context, in an urbanized context or a mixed use context, those features on the top row might not be appropriate or even possible to provide. Having more choices as far as what kinds of community gathering areas and amenities for the public that are parts of the development, they're on the bottom row; plazas, community centers, public greens, those kind of things, that have a little bit more of an urban character to them, should be worked in to the Zoning Ordinance. Page 4IOctober 19, 2023 We talked with stakeholders who provide affordable dwelling units or ADUs and heard from them that it's not possible, in their opinion, to reach the densities that are allowed in the Zoning Ordinance under your current ADU provisions. We got to wondering what could be done to make those densities that are on paper in your Zoning Ordinance, achievable. Again, there's a lot more information in your written report than what I could cover that shows some recommendations for how to tweak the lot sizes or significantly adjust sometimes the lot sizes related to ADUs in order to allow an ADU developer to reach the density that the Zoning Ordinance says they should be able to reach given [inaudible]. We have landscaping and screening standards. There's a recommendation in Legacy Leesburg about increasing the tree canopy coverage within the Town to about 30% to 35%. There's some State statutes that we have to be careful about and be aware of when we are looking at increasing canopy requirements on a site. We will be aware of that and be aware also that some urbanized settings, it might be harder to have a very large tree canopy, but we want to still have some types of amenities, like I discussed on the previous slides for more urbanized settings. Several other landscaping and screening recommendations that just try to be aware of the context and be aware that suburbanized standards aren't really possible to make work for urban setting. If you try to make them work, you're going to get a lot of modification requests. Trying to reduce the number of modification requests is a really big goal with this project, so that staffs time is saved working up staff reports to justify modifications, and just a ton of modifications is a sign that your regulations need some work. That's what we're trying to help. For parking, parking has changed a lot over the last five years even. We are aware of that and want to make some recommendations related to maybe not having parking minimums in some cases or having maximum parking requirements. You can have hard maximums, where you just say no more than such and such percent of the minimum can be provided on a parking lot, having a hard cap on that, or more of a soft maximum, where if they do need to provide more parking, then they have to work in other amenities or some kind of permeable surfaces or things of that nature. There's a lot of benefits to this approach. Just reducing the heat island effect in the summer, helping with storm water drainage, by having less impermeable surface, it could help with affordability, by having a developer not have to spend as much money on paving a large parking area. All of these things are beneficial. Another thing we would look at incorporating into your Zoning Ordinance is a sustainability index. This is something that Norfolk has and that we've done in some other cities that has been, I think, beneficial. There's a recommendation in Legacy Leesburg to encourage green building practices. With a sustainability index, there are certain characteristics there shown on the right that a development could have in it that relate to sustainable design, whether it's LEED or some other type of certification like that, green roofs, having eaves that provide shade on the south elevation to the building. Those kind of characteristics can build up points for development and then the applicant can use those points to cash in and get either some of those incentives shown a density bonus, more lot coverage, reduced parking, or other things that would be attractive to that developer. This is just a sample of what that looks like in a code, whether it's competing— not competing but complimentary tables that you have a menu of characteristics and then a menu of incentives. The historic district has an overlay, has many underlying districts within it that can contribute to having a more suburban feel than probably what we were looking for so we would want to be aware of that and try to make the Historic District as urbanized as possible without getting into the more suburban standards. Recommendations in the Gateway District are to have walkable mixed -use areas, Crescent District and Gateway District both, we have some recommendations for the Gateway District just clarifying the purpose and when the standards apply. Having more objective language in the design standards as well, and just clarity, clarifying that these are standards that need to be met. Overall, having your Certificate of Occupancy, not Occupancy, Certificate of Appropriateness process be as administrative as you all are comfortable in making it, so that the staff can make decisions and Page 5lOctober 19, 2023 there are fewer public meetings related to Certificates of Appropriateness. We can do different things, raise different thresholds, so that submittals for COAs are as administratively approvable as possible. There are some user-friendly provisions that the Gateway District could also incorporate linking the guidelines to the actual text of the Zoning Ordinance, maybe having flow charts and just spelling out the processes and have them as part of the review Gateway District. There are just some inconsistencies that urban designs have noted, get more into detail on your written report related. Of course the Crescent District is still being looked at from a plan perspective and policy recommendations. We'll be ready to review that document once it's ready and incorporate the recommendations related to the Crescent District [inaudible]. We had a couple of legal sub -consultants on this project and they have provided some observations and recommendations as well. They, without even trying very much matched up with the recommendations that we have overall related to streamlining of review procedures, making them as administrative again as possibly can add and that you all are comfortable with, broadening the ability for certain kinds of modifications to just be written in the regulations rather than have to be requested through a modification process. If there's a modification that's always approved, and you're just making the applicant jump through hoops to get it, maybe you should incorporate that into the written part of the Code and just let it be a basic standard rather than request for modification. There are a lot of different land use limitations that Virginia Code gets specific about and those are detailed out in your report as well and several streamlining opportunities. One to maybe mention in a little greater detail, is the thought of decreasing the level of detail required for conceptual plans at the rezoning stage. A tradeoff for that could be requiring neighborhood meeting in advance of a significant submittal, like a large rezoning or a large special exception, so that the applicant would need to hold a neighborhood meeting in the area where the project is contemplated for, get neighborhood feedback if people choose to attend [inaudible], and work those requests and.those thoughts from the neighbors into the design of whatever they are wanting to submit for. That could be, again, a trade off or maybe requiring less detail, upfront, when an application is 1 submitted. The Legacy Leesburg does recommend, in strategy 3.1.5, that the town consider additional opportunities of the public to provide inputs. That would be one way. There's a grab bag of other streamlining opportunities, having more minor special exceptions as opposed to full-blown special exceptions, use tables, just being very clear about what groups, or what individuals are involved and review what their roles are, clearly state documents that come into play, or have different types of submittals and so forth. Getting into the home stretch, there are some organizational recommendations and formatting recommendations that we have that are detailed in your report just making it possible to link different documents that have a bearing on the project like Town Code, Health and Safety Code, State statutes. Those will be clickable in the adopted ordinance and a new window or a new tab would pop up showing those documents that we're referencing or even that specific section that we're referencing in the Town Code or in the State statutes. Here's just one slide devoted to the annotated outline. Basically, the thought process is to have up close, front end of the document content that a citizen user is going to be more interested in like zoning districts and land uses and then have, toward the back what technical users will need [inaudible], attorneys or designers having the processes, the review processes at the back, or the design standards at the back of the document, and things like that so that people who already know their way around just go where they need to but a lay person can look right at the front of the document [inaudible]. An annotated outline, and excerpt of that is shown on the right here. As David mentioned, it just takes your existing [inaudible] structure, your Zoning Ordinance, it shows on the right-hand side of the table. It shows on the left side, how it fits in with the proposed outline of the new updated [inaudible]. There are several user-friendly features I've mentioned as part of our [inaudible] platform. Those are sort of labeled here on the screen, it's [inaudible] to the internet. By that I mean, the Zoning Ordinance is not just a PDF on the Town's Web site, the Zoning Ordinance is a Web site. It has clickable links and it has [inaudible] graphics and tables and other tools. There's calculators that we Page 6IOctober 19, 2023 can build in so that an applicant can get an idea, for example of how much parking they're going to need. They can select the land use from a drop -down menu and select what their square footage of the building is probably going to be, and get a calculation spit out on how many parking spaces they would need to provide, just as an example. There's always a table of contents available on the left. Graphics again, pop-up definitions. If you hover over a certain word, like the word 'structure,' for example, hover over it, the definition of that word will pop up [inaudible] many features like that. As far as the next steps, once we get back to the office which for me, is home, drafting in sections, getting going with actually drafting the regulations, showing changes in strikethrough and underline, providing those to staff for review, and then getting feedback and refining what we've done so it's back and forth, eventually working towards a recommendation from the Planning Commission and eventual adoption by the Town Council. That concludes this whirlwind tour of the critique and I welcome unanswered questions or whatever [inaudible]. [silence] Mayor Burk: Thank you. Before we begin with questions and answers, I'd like everybody at this table to introduce themselves so that you have an idea of who you're hearing from. Why don't we start down at this end. Mr. Barnes? Planning Commissioner Barnes: I'm Ad Barnes. What do you want to know about me? Mayor Burk: You are on the Planning Commission or on the Council? Planning Commissioner Barnes: I'm [inaudible]. [laughter] Planning Commissioner Barnes: I'm here right now, I'm still in Planning Commission [inaudible]. Mayor Burk: You know Mr. Dentler and [inaudible]. Planning Commissioner Barnes: I'm on the planning. Mayor Burk: You're on the Planning Commission. Council Member Todd Cimino -Johnson: No problem. [Inaudible]. Planning Commissioner Barnes: Yes. Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Dr. Todd Cimino -Johnson, Town Council. Planning Commissioner Candice Tuck: Candice Tuck, Planning Commission. Council Member Zach Cummings: Zach Cummings on the Town Council. Planning Commissioner Jennifer Canton: Jennifer Canton. Planning Commission Chair Brian McAfee: Brian McAfee, Planning Commission. Vice Mayor Steinberg: Neil Steinberg, Vice Mayor. Planning Commissioner Earl Hoovler: Earl Hoovler, Planning Commission. Council Member Kari Nacy: Kari Nacy, Town Council. Planning Commissioner Gigi Robinson: [inaudible], Planning Commission. Page 7IOctober 19, 2023 Council Member Ara Bagdasarian: Ara Bagdasarian, Town Council. Planning Commissioner Ron Campbell: Ron Campbell, Planning Commission. Mayor Burk: I imagine there are a number of questions,- I know I've written down quite a few. How -- what would be useful for you in the process? Do you want us just to go through and ask all the questions [inaudible] next person, [inaudible]. Brian Mabry: That's fine with me if that's what you all are used to doing, that's good with me too. Yes, [inaudible]. Mayor Burk: 1'11 start. There's a couple of things that worried me as went through all of this. One of them is the term-- you referred to 'cities', and you refer to the term, 'urban', a lot. Leesburg is not a city, it's a town. We're not suburban so much anymore, although we still retain some aspects of that but we most certainly are not an urban center. Some of your comparisons concern me that we don't want to go full-blown into an urban mindset when we're not there yet. Brian Mabry: Yes, that might have been imprecise language on my part. Urbanized or urbanizing, or just something that is non -suburban I think is what I had in mind. I don't think that anyone expects extremely an urbanized outcome in 20 years after this ordinance is adopted, just more urban maybe than what you're currently seeing with some more density, maybe hardscape amenities like plazas or courtyards is more what I -- Mayor Burk: That is a little concerning, your development standard. All of these items we have on the top, we have all those. [silence] Mayor Burk: We still value the trees and the grass, and that kind of stuff, keep that in mind. There was nothing in here about one of the concerns that many if I go around and talk to the other mayors in other locations, so many of the 'moderate housing,' the smaller houses, the older houses in certain areas are being knocked down and then these big McMansions are replacing them, and making them tremendously unaffordable neighborhoods, and not consistent with each other. Is there anything that we will be looking at in regard to that? Brian Mabry: We certainly could. Our founder Lane Kendig wrote a book with a provocative title, Too Big, Too Boring, Too Ugly about McMansions. We have that resource to draw from. Mayor Burk: I don't want to-- I'm going to move on here, but I appreciate that user-friendly features, I think that would be very helpful. Then the one last thing I am-- the other thing that really concerns me, a lot of what you're recommending is taking decisions out of the Planning Commission and out of the Council and putting them into administrative positions. That's a little concerning to me. I'll have to follow that more carefully because that could set off alarms that non -elected individuals or non - appointed individuals are making decisions that maybe we should be looking at. Brian Mabry: I'll try to often couch that as much as you all are comfortable with since you all are the decision -makers, of course. We'll have to figure out what the right spec-- where we fall on a spectrum as far as-- some things will never be able to be administratively approved, of course, so we will try to find that balance. Mayor Burk: I need to caveat that these are my opinions, I haven't talked to any of the other Council Members at this point in regard to it. I'm going to turn this over to you, Mr. Chair. Planning Commission Chair Brian McAfee: Thank you kindly. My questions are on slide 31-- thank you for numbering by the way —the second to last bullet point, giving town staff more authority along the line of what Mayor Burk was just bringing up, can you give additional details on that, like what additional authority your train of thought was in terms of providing that to the Town staff? Brian Mabry: Yes. A really good example could be a thing called, limited uses. Those are within the write-up in the report and [crosstalk] Page 8lOctober 19, 2023 Planning Commission Chair McAfee: Slide 34 at the top. 34 is where you mentioned limited uses. Brian Mabry: Yes. [silence] Planning Commission Chair McAfee: Yes, the first bullet point goes along with that, is that an authority that you were thinking of giving to staff? Brian Mabry: Yes. Limited uses, they could have other names. Basically, think of a spectrum of there's permitted uses in the use table that are permitted by right and there's no hearing involved, they just have to follow the basic landscaping, parking, setback rules that are in the zone as a permitted use. A special exception, as you all know, goes through a public hearing process, to a public hearing, and is eventually approved or not by the Town Council. In the middle of that are limited uses. Those are land uses where there would be very specific use standards tied to that land use in a particular zoning district that would be approvable, or again dis- approvable, by Town staff. An example of that could be offices in-- think of whatever the densest residential district becomes. This might not have legs, but I'm just using it as an example. That would be permitted in many of the non-residential districts by right, of course, that would not be a very controversial thing permitted by right in the non-residential districts. We could say in the highest density residential district that offices are limited use. That would mean that there are standards tied to offices in that particular district that would limit its floor area to something small like 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 square feet, something like that for floor area. We could say that it has to have parking toward the rear of the property in order to have less of an impact on the front. You could do things, maybe you can have [inaudible] if that would be possible to make it within, look a little more like a residence than just a big office. That's what a limited use is. Again, it would be looked at by staff during their review of the site plan and approve or not, rather than going through a full-blown public hearing or versus, on the other end of the spectrum, being just allowed by right and not having [inaudible]. That's one example of how staff could have more authority. There are certain land uses that might currently be special exceptions that could be devolved down into limited uses. We'll have to figure that out as we go. Planning Commission Chair McAfee: I guess I would say to the fellow Planning Commissioners, just to keep that in mind, that is that something you are comfortable with handing over to Town staff. The other question that I had, still on slide 34 here, the second to last bullet point, "Creating a staff position to help applicants," basically hand -holding through the process. Have you seen that before? If so, what was the size of the municipality that had a full-time hand holder? Brian Mabry: Yes. I'm going to have to be hard-pressed to give a specific example. I just know through my 20 years doing Zoning Ordinances that yes, I have. Thinking of an example might be a little difficult on the spot. They would be-- or even maybe not quite that extreme but just-- I don't know if you all already do this, like the case manager model of review where there's a point of contact for that particular project that you have to always notice they can go to that person will help that, shepherd that project through the process. That might be a little bit more of a realistic version of that. That, I've definitely seen in public sector jobs I've had, like Louisville, Kentucky Metro planning. That's the way we do things, it's been done. Planning Commission Chair McAfee: Director David, do we have that? James David: I think [inaudible] for me to share, we have the service that's currently provided by our Economic Development staff [inaudible] process. Also, this Council did adopt in their [inaudible] goal setting retreat a desire to gain a business assistance team [inaudible] level of representatives from various departments [inaudible] so much on [inaudible]. Brian Mabry: Thank you. Thank you, Brian, for the question. Page 9lOctober 19, 2023 Mayor Burk: I'm going to go this way now, I'm going to ask [inaudible] leave it open, is there anybody that has any interest in asking questions? Yes [inaudible]. [laughter] Vice Mayor Steinberg: Thanks for the presentation. I recognize [inaudible] for a shepherd, if you will, especially for some of the smaller projects or larger applicants. Of course, they often have a better handle on the sort of work that we do. I suspect they would need it quite as much. My question is set around slide 33. Let me ask, the very first bullet point, "Decrease level of detail at the zoning stage," what exactly is that? Brian Mabry: We heard a lot from stakeholders. In the beginning of the project, our firm staff interviewed what we call stakeholders which are those who make a living off of dealing with the Zoning Ordinance. Account staff did focus group members or focus group interviews which is people with more of a softer interaction with the Zoning Ordinance if they were preservationists, neighborhood advocates, or other folks like that. When we were talking to our people, a recurring theme we heard was that they believed that there was a lot of detail required up front for the beginning of a project that often it was difficult for them to provide as far as the investment of getting their plans together for what they were wanting to do. We took that for what it was and thought, potentially that a trade-off could be requiring less up front, and we'll have to again figure out what less really is, less detail up front for submittals of rezonings, special exceptions and instead requiring, for a certain magnitude of projects, not for every little thing, a neighborhood meeting where the way that has worked in public sector roles I've had would be, the applicant has to notify surrounding property owners to a certain radius, whatever that ends up being. Those folks can come to a set time and date and location and that applicant presents what they are thinking about doing. They take notes, not formalized minutes, but take notes about who showed up, what their input is, and submit those notes and what they had shown at the meeting along with their formalized application for your rezoning or special exception. The thought is, instead of detailed drawings, renderings, or whatever the case may be, that could be a way to get the public involved earlier, as the plan recommends, but not have as high of a level of detail of submittals as what they were concerned about [inaudible]. Vice Mayor Steinberg: If we put this question to staff, what would their opinion be about the level of detail we're asking for in the rezoning? James David: I think you may respond. I think that a lot of the [inaudible] staff, [inaudible] staff have [inaudible] more detail up front, that enables [inaudible] better analysis of potential impacts [inaudible] if you ask your Economic Development staff, they will tell you that this is only engaging the concerns they quite often that [inaudible] that construction plan fails [inaudible] so forth and so on, [inaudible] project. Sometimes I don't know [inaudible]. Vice Mayor Steinberg: I am sure that I wouldn't necessarily want to characterize the whole process as adversarial. Oftentimes, it feels that way where you granted the rezoning and then suddenly, like [inaudible] actually trying to get the details you're looking for. Of course, you might imagine that in neighborhood meetings where you have people who are far less versed in any of this and without pretty pictures to view it, makes it difficult for them to evaluate what's going on in a project that might directly impact them. I would think we'd want to be very cautious about-- I'm not saying we want to require full-blown architectural drawings, but I think we want to be careful about the lack [inaudible] might ask for before we [inaudible]. Thanks. Mayor Burk: [inaudible] who else, [inaudible]. Does anyone on this side have any questions? Page 10lOctober 19, 2023 Council Member Cummings: Thank you. My questions center more on the process of the rewrite in general. Currently, the County is embarked on their Zoning Ordinance rewrite, have you all gleaned any best practices, we're talking about Loudoun County, sometimes it's not best practices. [crosstalk] [laughter] Brian Mabry: Yes. Our firm is a sub -consultant on Loudoun County's rewrite. The lead on it is a sub - consultant for us on this project. It's a role reversal. I personally have had little involvement in Loudoun County's update, but my boss and our firm owner, Brett Keast has been. I know that our role in that project has been to reconfigure their zoning districts. That has been the main thing that we've done for them. I can't personally speak to Town lessons learned at this point from that kind of an [inaudible]. Council Member Cummings: My concern is trying to take all of this and look at it and approve it at once. What's that saying, what's the best way to eat an elephant, one bite at a time. I don't know if it would be possible to look at a-- I'm using the word chapter, but I know there's-- like a chapter by chapter where it goes in front of the Planning Commission, they do their work on it, and they have their public hearing, it moves forward. Then that immediately comes to us as the Council rather than holding on to everything at once and expecting us to spend three months to run over the whole thing. I think it if we can break it down, I think it will -- Brian Mabry: If we put it that way, that is the thought of having, this part is definitely a staff and consultant effort where we're providing drafts. The latest that I know from our schedule is that the Town staff would provide updates to Planning Commission. We would end up coming after several little mini updates to you all, we'd come for a trip here and we're going to have a presentation similar to this on a set of chapters. You would be fed the pieces, not just given the whole thing. Council Member Cummings: Perfect. [inaudible] Question for staff. I know in the report, it talked about not being able to move forward on some of the updates due to the Crescent Design update that's happening. What is our timeline on that, is that six months, a year, two years, 16 years? James David: I think it's [inaudible] six months, I think it might be [inaudible]. The Crescent District Master Plan update is what [inaudible] take that presentation to the Council. That's [inaudible]. Council Member Cummings: One of the things I read in the staff report talked about freezing amendments to the Zoning Ordinance during this process. We're talking at least a two-year process from start to finish of this Zoning Ordinance rewrite. Are we holding firm to that freezing of any text amendment or Zoning Ordinance amendment if, say, Microsoft comes and wants to build something in the Town and we [inaudible] but they need us to do some amendment. What staff, how would we handle that? James David: Hopefully we can get thoughts on the ordinance amendments. [inaudible] even those individual amendments [inaudible] emergency came through [inaudible] it's hard to get through and you want to talk about ordinance amendment [inaudible]. Council Member Cummings: That's all my questions. Just quickly, from my reading of those staff reports and the presentation today, thank you for that, by the way, I think the focus, for me, personally, is definitely streamlining the process. I think that's really important, as they say, in development and investing in our community, time kills [inaudible]. The quicker we can get from application to ribbon cutting, I think the better we will be. The other issue that I want to make sure we address in this is the confusion that some of our districts, the overlay districts, whatever you want to call them, creates, I like the thought of going through, especially, the Gateway District and trying to iron out what rules we're following, who's in charge there and how we can get folks to invest in our Gateway Districts. I just want to thank you for putting this all together. I think that it looks-- for me, the outline here looks good and I look forward to seeing your progress. Page 11 iOctober 19, 2023 Mayor Burk: Anyone on this side? Council Member Bagdasarian: Exactly. You're doing really well. Council Member Nacy: [inaudible], thank you. I agree with a lot of what Council Member Cummings was just saying. I echo that this looks really good on the surface and excited to get into the meat of it. One question that stood out to me, which I'm sure you will address, but I would just like to ask, if we come across an ordinance, as currently written, that hasn't been used, say since 1960, will we be looking at updating that and/or just striking it altogether out of the ordinance in an effort to modernize as part of this model? Brian Mabry: There are certain provisions that have just laid there and not been enforced, either because they were not-- I'm not saying there's any certain one that we find out that there's something that has not been enforced or has been impractical or everybody hates as staff, it doesn't or embarrassed them to say to an applicant that they have to do this just because it doesn't make sense, but they got to pay it. I think that's a good candidate for striking it. As we work on this, we will be showing our work by doing strikethrough and underline on the provisions. You will be able to see if you're interested, what has been proposed to be removed by striking through. The new language to be underlined and then language kept as is, just plain text. What you describe, yes, that would definitely be. Council Member Nacy: I think that's great. That is certainly a focus that I would be interested in, just in general modernizing the language in our Ordinance along with the [inaudible]. Brian Mabry: We're trying to use not too much legalese, but have it be legally defensible at the same time. Council Member Nacy: Thank you. Mayor Burk: This side? [crosstalk] Council Member -Cimino Johnson: Thank you for your presentation. Like the Council Member Nacy, said, I really like what I see here and I'm excited to see how everything turns out. My question is how do you anticipate what we don't know right now? I've been on the Council for 10 months and I've seen a couple of things come through where there's nothing in the Zoning Ordinance in there. How do you anticipate 20 years what we may need? Brian Mabry: A good territory for that thought process or land uses. Five years ago, we probably didn't know that these axe throwing lounges would be a land use or Kitty Cat Bakeries, there's all kinds of strange things that are happening now. [crosstalk] Mayor Burk: Did he call them strange? [laughter] Brian Mabry: No offense to the cat. We often build in a land -use interpretation section that allows the Zoning Administrator to give guidance for making an interpretation for what use category, a newly emerged land use that we can't predict right now or else we would just write it into the regs. It gives a set of criteria for that person, for the Zoning Administrator to consider. I'm trying to figure out how to classify it and what district it would belong in. That's part of it. Of course, a decision like that is appealable, if someone wanted to appeal that staff decision. That's the main thing I think of about unknowns for the future, just, really, flexibility, balanced with certainty is the key. Balance to try to bring into a project like this where you built in flexibility to let an applicant Page 12lOctober 19, 2023 have multiple options that are good for getting to approval but also having certainty built in there so the person next door has some confidence that what gets built next door is not going to interfere with their lives or their property values. It's that flexibility and certainty balance that we really have to work at finding and meeting. The land use thing is the thing that comes to mind as you're [inaudible]. Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Thank you. Mayor Burk: Thank you. Council Member Nacy: You've been preparing. Council Member Bagdasarian: I do. I've come to know Council Member Nacy a little too well, I've got a few things I'd like to bring up. The first point, the Mayor's point earlier about we always talk about the character of the Town, what characterizes the definition of what makes the Town so special. The term that I like to use is historic urbanism. We're not a city, we're the biggest town in the Commonwealth, probably suburbia but historic urbanism. That's what makes, I think, Leesburg so special. When I was driving into the Town from Market Street from Starbucks earlier today, I could have been anywhere suburbia on Market Street until I hit the intersection of Loudoun and Market Street and I was in Leesburg, you felt Leesburg. Most areas of the Town are built to suburban standards so it could be anywhere, of course. The question is, can we zone for historic urbanism? From my understanding, it's illegal to have this type of zoning. You look at most new urbanism, you have Village at Leesburg, you have the Reston Town Center, the Mosaic District, they're still very car -centric. What characterizes the historic urbanism, and that's all about people centric, before automobiles even existed. How can we zone for that, looking towards the future? Brian Mabry: There was a time when zoning didn't exist, there was a time when cities and towns couldn't control what [inaudible] generally speaking unless it was a slaughterhouse or something big like that, couldn't really control the kinds of land uses going on. In those historic parts of town where you got buildings that are multi -generational, they can have different land uses take place in them over time. That's because they were built to be flexible, in my opinion. Having, I think, less focus going back to what was old becoming new again, having less of a, like I said, micromanaging land uses and treating land uses in categories and regulating them that way in broad groups, if you do that, you have more flexible space to have different land uses in it and can balance that out with higher design standards, say to an applicant or a developer. You've got more land uses to do on this property than what you could have done before. In exchange for that, we'd like a higher level of design in terms of, again, public amenities, hardscape areas, landscape areas, or having parking sensitively designed so that it's not overly obtrusive. Those kind of things, I think, would help take a step toward that historic urbanism that [inaudible] for characterizing a place that's not urban. Again, I was probably being too casual with my language using that term. I think that's part of it is just more design and more character, less micromanaging land uses [inaudible]. Council Member Bagdasarian: I know but this ties more to the Crescent District, the expansion of the downtown sources, but is it possible to expand that zoning, the narrow streets, the less emphasis on parking automobiles, more emphasis on pedestrians, is it possible to zone for that? Brian Mabry: Yes, in Virginia, you have to be careful about some building design issues that are off limits by State statute, having buildings close to the street [inaudible] for increasing pedestrian activity so that they've got something to guide you along on the sidewalk rather than a vast paved area where you feel like you're just an alien walking along or the space alien walking along in a strange land, having just human -scale heights where there's things called step backs where the first part of the building that's closest to the street is a limited human -scale height. Page 13jOctober 19, 2023 Then as you go back, the building, it can get taller and be more usable for a lot of different interests so that it has a human scale at the front but then can be much taller maybe towards the back of the building, [inaudible] Another thing I think that would help with that, having that, again, parking to the rear and minimize as much as you all are comfortable with having, parking reduced a little bit. Those are, I think some key ingredients for making it more of the historic urbanism, that would be awesome. Council Member Bagdasarian: Only a couple more questions. In your experience when you've seen the removal of minimum parking requirements, does that lead developers to not allow any parking at all? What is the outcome of that? Brian Mabry: I think cities and towns have to be careful that they're not left with parking becoming a nuisance for neighborhoods. That might lead to some programs that are maybe outside of the Zoning Ordinance to try to prevent that. I know you all already have permit parking for residences and things, so that there might be other things related to that that might become needed if the parking is reduced. Having a good transit system does wonders for getting away with reducing parking which you might have some work to do in that area as well. Usually, the kinds of reductions we end up incorporating are not drastic unless we're just getting rid of minimums, all might not be ready for that drastic of a step. It's more like right sizing than abolishing parking so that a typical office requirement is one space for 300 square feet for offices. That's the norm for decades. Instead, bumping that to 350 or 400. One space for 350 or one space for 400 square feet. You're going up in the number but that actually makes fewer spaces in the end. It's just an incremental adjustment. There's best practices [inaudible] transportation engineers that's out for model parking ratios that they found to work and that we could rely on. It's more of a not quite a baby step but instead of a full leap, that's a healthy step in a direction of more parking right side, getting rid of the whole [inaudible]. Council Member Bagdasarian: This is my last question. Mayor Burk: Oh, don't believe him. Council Member Bagdasarian: Oh! [laughter] Council Member Bagdasarian: At least for now. Does zoning also incorporate aspects of transportation sidewalks, walkability, pedestrian opportunities? Brian Mabry: In a way. There are some aspects of that related to your document called the SLDR, Subdivision Land Development Regulations, that acronym always escapes me, that things like sidewalk placement can more come into and road narrowing would be part of that isn't part of the Zoning Ordinance. The good news is that document is also a separate project but a little later on is going to be updated and then we're going to have a hand -in as well. Some of that is the SLDR document. Think of it as street layout connectivity of streets which can do a great deal. You're not having a ton of just massive new subdivisions because of your physical land locked nature of much of the Town. Having just interconnectivity of streets can be helpful with creating more pedestrian activity, making it more convenient to walk somewhere, like the ton of cul-de-sacs, you have to go a really circuitous route just to go at the road by the short distance that can just force people to drive instead. There's no silver bullet. Zoning isn't a silver bullet for curing everything. It's a package deal with your Zoning Ordinance, your SLDR design guidelines, capital improvements, and a lot of other things going [inaudible] all come together and create the place. [silence] Planning Commissioner Barnes: Are you looking for comments from everyone or just the Council? Page 141October 19, 2023 Mayor Burk: I'm fine with it. Council Member Cimino -Johnson: [inaudible] except the chair. Mayor Burk: [inaudible] Planning Commissioner Barnes: Talking about parking, that's my biggest concern. Can you hear me? Mayor Burk: Yes. Council Member Bagdasarian: Biggest concern is the parking, which we are having trouble right now, parking trouble. When we go out to the Planning Commission meetings at nighttime and it's Thursday, and if the band is playing in the old movie theater, there's no parking. You just keep driving, I spent half an hour one time just driving up and down and up and down looking for a place to park. It is a hell of a way to come to a town. I think we might have to put a sign outside the town, "No parking town." If we're reducing parking like you're talking about, we cannot reduce it. Especially if you're going to build a hotel, motel, or something, and there's a family coming down on Route 15 from somewhere else, it's a nighttime [inaudible], the kids start saying, "I'm tired, we've got to stop and take a rest." They find a hotel, a motel, drive in there, they say, "All right, you check in." They say, "What do I do with my car? Where am I going to park?" That kind of stuff— and the kids are tired. It's the middle of the night, maybe it's snowing outside. How do you find a parking? The parking is one of the most important things for businesses and towns. If we don't have a place to park, then nobody will be coming down to town. Doing any business, restaurants, whatever you call it, parking is very important. The roads are very important. Right now, yesterday-- every day, really, 5:30, you go outside, look outside, next door, and the parking lot [inaudible] road, this parking lot all the way to the bypass on the other end. There's nowhere to go. I live in town, I live only two blocks from downtown. I'm circling around to find a way to get home. That was yesterday. That took me 15, 20 minutes, three blocks. Parking is very important. I know most of you say, "Oh, what are we going to do?" Parking, actually, if Villages didn't have the parking, they would have no business. I don't think anybody is going to be renting a car to come to Leesburg. Maybe we have a big rental place, you can rent a golf cart. Let's start [inaudible] put your car there. It's not going to happen. If people can't drive and it's just not convenient for them, they're not going to stop to do business with them. That's the biggest thing [inaudible]. That's all I have. Mayor Burk: Is there anyone? Planning Commissioner Campbell: Thank you for the presentation. Early on, you mentioned housing types and diversity of housing types, where you talked about ADUs, Affordable Dwelling Units. The new topic has not just been housing diversity, but affordability in general. Two questions. First is, Zoning Ordinance can be used to give developers incentive to promote diversity of household stock as well as affordability. Brian Mabry: Yes, I can elaborate. There are efficiencies, I think, for a builder when it comes to certain housing types, especially ones that are attached and maybe they're on separate lots in a townhouse manner or quadruplexes or triplexes. In other communities, we have built in incentives into the Zoning Ordinance we've done where if a neighborhood or a development has more than one housing type, then they get more lots or more units than they would have if they had just one single type throughout. Maybe there are-- maybe what's appropriate in Leesburg, we're talking about pods of different types that are similar in a development, or maybe it's more [inaudible] integrated and compatible with each other and closer together than that. We'II have to figure that out as we go, but yes, there are ways to incentivize that type of activity. Page 15lOctober 19, 2023 Planning Commissioner Campbell: Two things I think then would be helpful. One is a list of those things for us to consider the types of options or maybe incentives. The second may be looking at the current Zoning Ordinance. What are the barriers or disincentives that currently exist? We may want something, but we have things in place that developers just can't follow up with, it's too expensive for them to do it. They're impossible. If we could consider both options to look at that would be helpful for us. Thank you. Planning Commissioner Tuck: Thank you. Not so much a question, it's a comment, definitely echoing what Mr. Campbell has said about needing to see the ADUs that we can incorporate because we may not be a city, but a lot of ways, we act as a city for the County of Loudoun. A lot of the affordable housing here is gone. When I moved here 10 years ago, I bought a townhome at the lower end. Now I could not even afford to live in Leesburg, if I were to buy today. That's a concern. We have a lot of amenities here in the Town that would not be staffable. It's quite alarming that a lot of places I go, the staff that work there say, "I drive in from Winchester, I drive in from Manassas, I drive in from Frederick." Not a very sustainable long-term plan if our workforce can't even live in the proximity of our Town. The other thing is the landscaping and screening, the green spaces, echoing something that Mayor Burk has said. I see here on slide 19 for urban areas, the hardscape amenities, smaller requirements for tree canopies. One of the amazing, unique features of Loudoun is its incorporation of green space with hardscape. One of the most unique properties along the southern edge of Town where the creek connects Raflo Park to Georgetown Park. We don't want to lose those kinds of amenities, if anything, we want to see things like that increase. We talked at our last Planning Commission meeting about incentivizing development along Crescent District and the need for canopy approval and improvements along that district to try to bring in that type of mixed -use development. Apart from removing the canopy, and that has been an ongoing problem, as somebody who worked with the Homeowners Association, seeing large amounts, large swaths of trees, especially along the Route 15 corridor, that have been removed. We've got to somehow incentivize more planting, not less, in those areas. Those are my opinions. [silence] Mayor Burk: You don't have to. [laughter] Planning Commissioner Hoovler: [inaudible] I like the idea of consolidating canopy tables. I think, though, there's obviously a huge difference in the size of the table that it becomes unusable. I would be very careful about that, because I think there's so much data that goes [inaudible] I think they go into a lot of trouble. I would want to be careful of that. To follow up with Mr. [inaudible] issue of that, it's not really an urban setting. I'm also a favorite of [inaudible] of landscaping on native species. Also, working with the tree management to make sure that their plan for [inaudible]. I'm curious about all of that. Brian Mabry: I think it would be smart, and I'm sure staff has thought of this as well, is to have specifically that group or the staff that works with that group, to look at the drafts that relate to trees and look and [inaudible]. I think that will be good. Planning Commissioner Hoovler: Finally, I just wanted to follow up on adding staff positions. [inaudible] I think a lot of our project managers are afraid of [inaudible] you can pack it in a bowl, and you guys take the applicants to the process. [inaudible] that position, [inaudible] but also had [inaudible]. Brian Mabry: A little parenthetical that would really be outside of the scope of this project anyway. It's a suggestion, and maybe it just ends up being tweaking the roles of the training related to project management, whatever that wouldn't be codified written out into Zoning Ordinance. Mayor Burk: Everybody else [inaudible]? Just a couple of clarifications I need. 32 where it says-- is that 33? Does it state? Page 16IOctober 19, 2023 Brian Mabry: With all those different land uses listed out. Mayor Burk: Look at the very last one. Tell me, really, you have specific land use recommendations for political signs? I think we need clarification on that at this point. Brian Mabry: So... Mayor Burk: You don't have to answer that, that is a [inaudible]. [laughter] Mayor Burk: [inaudible] to everybody, [inaudible] then we didn't mention anything about the airport. We do have a municipal airport here. Today, EPA came out with recognition that lead gas of the smaller airplanes are using is affecting the housing underneath it. Housing should never have been underneath it. That happened before I came along. In talking to EPA today, that's not going to change for a number of years. That's going to be an issue that we have to deal with in regards to land use and that aspect of it. You also didn't mention that the trailer park, we do have a trailer park here, so you're going to be able to move that if you can at all. Then I would just like to, one last thought is we have a lot in many neighborhoods, we have commercial aspects integrating into the neighborhood that aren't always compatible or have their own set of issues that I'm not sure are always considered. I'm referring specifically to a group home. I have one that's across the street but I just had a phone call that's on for an hour that [inaudible] with a lady that's very upset because the commercial is most certainly very important service. It does mean that there are more staff there that are taking parking places. Lots of traffic increases, lots of [inaudible] lots of people living [inaudible] Those are just some issues that [inaudible]. Is there anything else you need from us at this point? Brian Mabry: I don't, but I think staff wanted to talk about something else, so I'll turn it over to them but if I don't get to say it, thank you very much. Mayor Burk: Thank you. I appreciate all your hard work. James David: Thank you Mr. Mabry I really appreciate the discussion and the questions from the Commission and the Council. Real quick, we just wanted to go over our process moving forward. Council Member Cummings already brought it up. He doesn't want to see the whole thing dumped in his lap. A lot to consume and digest. That wasn't the plan. We're going to get these articles delivered in groups. We see here you got the articles one through four being drafted in the winter. That'll be delivered, staff will have feedback, we'll get to a point where we're ready to share with the public. We will have an open house and then there will be additional Council Commission Board briefings about article one through four. Remember Mr. Mabry said that's the stuff that people will care about the most. We're trying to put that upfront in the ordinance. It will be very clear about what those topics are, one is parking, there might be signs, might be development standards, et cetera. Then we'll go article five through nine. Once we feel comfortable about where we are here, get some feedback, we'll go through that. Eventually we will get to a place where we are ready to release the draft ordinance text in its entirety to the public and give them two months to really get in there, review it, provide comments via that online platform. That'll be the next thing that we show you. It's a pretty nice interactive Web site approach to where people get in and they can select what they care about and comment on it, most comments come to staff. We can push out reports of those comments we're receiving so elected officials and appointees can see what people are talking about. Those will also have staff response to those comments. We'll take all of that under consideration, then we'll come to the Planning Commission and get into these different sections with the Commission. I'm envisioning quite a few work session and at a public hearing at the Planning Commission stage, they'll get to a place where they're comfortable Page 17lOctober 19, 2023 recommending the draft and staff will be aligned with the Commission and the consultant and then bring it to the board for their work. Hopefully, by the time we get there, you're not doing as much of the heavy lifting because you've been briefed and you've gotten some early feedback on these articles. You've seen what, the public has been talking about, Commission and staff has done their work. Then we get to the Council to give you our best product at that time. Then we take it on the finish line once we get the Council's feedback. That's what we have lined out as stops along the way. Just wanted to make sure that the Council is comfortable with that approach, going forward. Mayor Burk: Anybody have any objections, [inaudible] I think that's pretty much [inaudible]. Council Member Cimino -Johnson: My only concern is, we could possibly have a whole new Council or new members, when we get to the Town Council Work Session in spring '25. Is that correct? Mayor Burk: [inaudible] that's true. [inaudible] Council Member Cimino -Johnson: Good, pointing that out. James David: Understood. As part of presenting this early information, we did think about meeting as a joint Commission/Council two more times. Again, we want to check in, make sure that's the appropriate approach. Unfortunately, we don't have the consultant here, all the time, so we want to maximize their time. If it is the feeling of the Council that you'd rather [inaudible] thing and then the recommendations come to the Council, we can certainly pivot, or if you prefer a joint meeting, just looking for some feedback. Mayor Burk: I really liked to hear from the Planning Commission. Do you prefer to have it as you work on it first or would you rather do it [inaudible]. [crosstalk] [laughter] Mayor Burk: Because you really do the hard work on it. Yes. Planning Commissioner Robinson: I think if we help you since we get into the nitty and the gritty and all dot the Is and Ts, I think you really want to get into probably [inaudible] review of our work. If at that point you'd like to have us join you to say, fine [inaudible] what are the [inaudible]? We can certainly use it, but I think it'd be, on our part, something we crack before you get it and see it in as well —Does that make sense? [crosstalk] Planning Commissioner Barnes: I think we let the Planning Commission do their job and get it ready for you. Then you can go over. I think we don't want to mess around with you, all the time. [laughter] Planning Commissioner Barnes: Let the experts do the work and you can put your stamp on it. How's that? That's [inaudible] that takes money [inaudible]. [laughter] Mayor Burk: All right. I think the Planning Commission would prefer to work on it themselves. Page 18lOctober 19, 2023 James David: Understood. We will pivot accordingly probably maximize the consultant's time with the Commission where we're getting into the nifty gritty. Then those follow-up presentations would probably be myself and Betsy relaying and also probably the Planning Commission Chair will join as a representative to giving the [inaudible] with the Commission. Before we close, because this is probably our final board session, is there anything the Council wants to prioritize because there's a lot that we spelled out tonight in terms of zoning direction you want to give to the Commission or we should leave it at that tonight? Mayor Burk: I think we pretty much shared what our concerns were, our priorities [inaudible]. James David: Very good. Just want to give that open opportunity one more time. Mayor Burk: I really want to be on record and thank you guys, the Planning Commission. You guys, Gigi when you talk about being in the weeds Planning Commissioner Robinson: We're talking parking over here. [laughter] Mayor Burk: I just want to say when you get in the weeds and you really are taking a heavy lift. So thank you all for all of your hard work and all the time and effort you put into it.. We know that whatever guys send to us is going to be the best possible product that we can put forward and I want to thank you so much. Thank you for that. I think we can adjourn the meeting. James David: One more item. We do have a project page for anyone that's listening. www.leesburgva.gov/zoning-ordinance-rewrite. [inaudible] Do want to hear from the public all the way through this project. Thank you. Mayor Burk: Thank you. Vice Mayor Steinberg: So moved. [laughter] Mayor Burk: Motion to adjourn. Vice Mayor Steinberg: So moved. Planning Commissioner McAfee: Second. Council Member Nacy: Second. Mayor Burk: All in favor? All: Aye. Page 19lOctober 19, 2023