HomeMy Public PortalAboutExhibit MSD 89- Transcript of Public Hearing- June 28, 2023Page 1
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·6· ·Metropolitan Saint Louis Sewer District Public
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Hearing
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·8· · ·2023 Stormwater and Wastewater Rate Change
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· · · · · · · · City of Kirkwood City Hall
10· · · · · · · · ·139 S Kirkwood Road
· · · · · · · · · ·Kirkwood, MO 63122
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14· · · · · · · · · · June 28, 2023
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Exhibit MSD 89
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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
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·4· ·Opening· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
·5· ·Presentation:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10
· · · ·By Brian Hoelscher
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·7· ·Questions by the Public:· · · · · · · · · · · · · 39
·8· ·Adjournment· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·77
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·1· ·Metropolitan Saint Louis Sewer District Public
·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·Hearing
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11· · · · · ·MSD Public Hearing, produced, sworn and
12· · · examined on June 28, 2023 between the hours of
13· · · 07:00 p.m. and 09:00 at 139 S Kirkwood Road, in
14· · · the City of Kirkwood, State of Missouri, before
15· · · Colin Wallis, within and for the State of
16· · · Missouri.
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·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
·2· ·RATE COMMISSIONERS:
·3· ·Bill Clarke, Secretary
· · ·Jack Stein
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·5· ·MSD Staff:
·6· ·Brian Hoelscher, MSD CEO
· · ·Lance Lecomb
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·9· ·REPORTED BY:
10· ·Mr. Colin Wallis
· · ·Lexitas Legal
11· ·711 North Eleventh Street
· · ·St. Louis, Missouri, 63101
12· ·(314) 644-2191
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·1· · · · · · · · · *· *· *· * *
·2· · · · ·(Proceedings commenced at 7:00 p.m.)
·3· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Good evening.· I'm
·4· ·Jack Stein of the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer
·5· ·District Rate Commission.· I will be presiding
·6· ·over the public hearing this evening.· I'm
·7· ·joined tonight by my fellow commissioner, Bill
·8· ·Clark.
·9· · · · The charter plan of the district was
10· ·amended by voters in St. Louis City and St.
11· ·Louis County at a general election on November
12· ·the 7th, 2000, and established the Rate
13· ·Commission.· The purpose of the Rate Commission
14· ·is to review and make recommendations to MSD's
15· ·Board of Trustees regarding changes in
16· ·wastewater rates, stormwater rates, and tax
17· ·rates proposed by MSD staff.
18· · · · The Rate Commission seeks to ensure MSD
19· ·ratepayers, and the public in general, have a
20· ·voice in MSD's rate-setting process.· Per the
21· ·charter plan, the Rate Commission is composed
22· ·of 15 member organizations who collectively
23· ·represent the broadest possible cross-section
24· ·of MSD customers and the community it serves.
25· · · · The Rate Commission member organizations
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·1· ·are selected by MSD's Board of Trustees through
·2· ·a public self-nomination and selection process
·3· ·set forth in the charter.· Each member
·4· ·organization serves a six-year term and
·5· ·appoints an individual to represent the
·6· ·organization on the Rate Commission.
·7· · · · Per the voter-approved changes made to
·8· ·MSD's charter in 2000, the Board of Trustees
·9· ·shall elect member organizations so as to
10· ·ensure a fair representation to all users of
11· ·the District's services.
12· · · · Specifically, rate commission member
13· ·organizations shall represent
14· ·commercial-industrial users, residential users
15· ·and other organizations interested in the
16· ·operation of the District, including by way of
17· ·example but not by way of limitation,
18· ·organizations focusing on environmental issues,
19· ·labor issues, socioeconomic issues, community
20· ·neighborhood organizations and other nonprofit
21· ·organizations.
22· · · · For a list of individual rate
23· ·commissioners and the organizations they
24· ·represent, please visit the Rate Commission
25· ·section of MSD's website at www.msdproject
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·1· ·clear.org.
·2· · · · The Rate Commission received a rate change
·3· ·notice from MSD staff on March 24th, 2023, for
·4· ·wastewater rates and stormwater rates and
·5· ·taxes.· Per the charter plan, the Rate
·6· ·Commission must issue its report on the
·7· ·proposed rate change notice to MSD's Board of
·8· ·Trustees on or before September 5th, 2023.· The
·9· ·Rate Commission adopted an operational rules
10· ·and a procedural schedule to conduct its
11· ·proceedings in a timely manner and with
12· ·procedural fairness to all parties.
13· · · · Since the rate change notice was received
14· ·on March 24th, 2023, the Rate Commission has
15· ·received testimony from MSD staff and the rate
16· ·consultants employed by the Rate Commission to
17· ·evaluate the MSD staff's proposal.· The parties
18· ·have also engaged in discovery requests.
19· ·Documentation of these activities is listed on
20· ·the Rate Commission's section of MSD's website
21· ·at www.msdprojectclear.org.
22· · · · Tonight's public hearing is one of 14
23· ·on-the-record sessions planned for between
24· ·June 21st, 2023, and August 7, 2023.· Any
25· ·ratepayer who wishes to be heard on the
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·1· ·proposed rate change may testify or participate
·2· ·in these public sessions.· The public hearings
·3· ·are publically noted via postings to the Rate
·4· ·Commission MSD's website at
·5· ·www.msdprojectclear.org.· These postings
·6· ·contain the time, date, and location of each of
·7· ·the public hearings.· As hearings are added to
·8· ·the schedule, the same information will be
·9· ·posted.
10· · · · Public hearings are held for the purpose
11· ·of permitting MSD staff to present its
12· ·wastewater and stormwater rate change proposal
13· ·to the general public and to permit said public
14· ·the opportunity to ask questions and/or to make
15· ·comments.
16· · · · Those unable or not wishing to provide
17· ·comments at a public hearing may provide
18· ·feedback to the Rate Commission via phone or
19· ·e-mail.· The phone number is (314)335-2028.
20· ·Again, the phone number is (314)335-2028.· The
21· ·e-mail address is
22· ·ratecommission@ahcconsulting.com.· A card with
23· ·the contact information is available at the
24· ·sign-in area.
25· · · · Alternately, staff representing the Rate
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·1· ·Commission, who I will ask to identify
·2· ·themselves shortly, I think I already have,
·3· ·this is Mr. Clark, will also be able to provide
·4· ·that information.· Further information on how
·5· ·to provide feedback outside of the public
·6· ·hearings is listed on the Rate Commission
·7· ·section of MDS's website at
·8· ·www.msdprojectclear.org.
·9· · · · Our next step tonight is a presentation by
10· ·MSD's staff followed by a public comment
11· ·period.· Tonight's presenter is Brian
12· ·Hoelscher, MSD's CEO and executive director.
13· ·Before we begin the presentation, though, I ask
14· ·that we observe the following housekeeping
15· ·rules.· Please hold all questions until the
16· ·comment period after the presentation.
17· · · · If you wish to present testimony or expect
18· ·you may have questions or comments, please sign
19· ·in at the door by which you entered the door.
20· ·Speakers will be called upon in the order they
21· ·have signed up.· Each speaker should identify
22· ·themselves and any organizations they
23· ·represent.
24· · · · While not a requirement, we ask those that
25· ·are speaking to state their name and address so
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·1· ·that we may ensure we are associating comments
·2· ·in the record with the correct speakers.· If
·3· ·you are representing an organization, please
·4· ·provide information about the organization.· If
·5· ·speakers wish to remain anonymous in whole or
·6· ·part, we respect those wishes.
·7· · · · Each speaker may have a maximum of ten
·8· ·minutes to speak regarding the proposed rate
·9· ·change.· As the presiding officer, I can limit
10· ·or expand speaking time as deemed necessary.
11· ·If you have further questions regarding
12· ·bathrooms or any other logistics, staff
13· ·representing the Rate Commission, staff, please
14· ·raise your hands, are available.
15· · · · If you have not already done so, please
16· ·silence your cell phones.· Are there any
17· ·questions regarding the procedures for this
18· ·evening?· Seeing none, Mr. Hoelscher, please
19· ·begin MSD's presentation.
20· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Thank you, Commissioner
21· ·Stein.· Again, my name is Brian Hoelscher.· I'm
22· ·the executive director and CEO with MSD.· I'm
23· ·going to present on the rate proposal.· Some of
24· ·you may have questions that aren't involving
25· ·the rate proposal, very specific things to your
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·1· ·properties, your bills.
·2· · · · If you have those types of questions, I
·3· ·got staff back here on the left-hand corner.
·4· ·Once we're done with this presentation, they
·5· ·will stay as long it takes tonight to either
·6· ·answer your question or take your information
·7· ·and make sure we get back to you.· We want to
·8· ·make sure we provide as many answers as we can
·9· ·tonight.· Let's see.· Ah, what do I do?· It's
10· ·why they don't let me near technology.
11· · · · UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:· That's why I use
12· ·DVDs.
13· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· I don't know what those
14· ·are, but okay.· We're good?· There we go, okay.
15· ·So, there's three parts I'm going to cover
16· ·today.· The first one is called a tale of two
17· ·systems.
18· · · · We're actually two separate utilities, two
19· ·different services. I want to describe what
20· ·that is in general, then I'm going to talk
21· ·about the Rate Commission and the rate proposal
22· ·process so you know what's going to happen as
23· ·we work our way through to an April 2024
24· ·election.· And then I'm going to discuss the
25· ·rate proposals in detail, specifically what's
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·1· ·going to be done, what the choices are for the
·2· ·voters, and what the financial impact is of
·3· ·those votes.
·4· · · · Here we go.· So, first of all, MSD's
·5· ·Project Clear protects the public's health,
·6· ·safety, and water environment by managing two
·7· ·programs with separate funding sources.
·8· ·There's a wastewater program and a stormwater
·9· ·program.
10· · · · The wastewater program gets funded out of
11· ·the monthly bills that you get that are based
12· ·on your potable water usage.· That funds the
13· ·wastewater program.· The stormwater program is
14· ·based on the property tax you pay annually on
15· ·your annual property tax bill.· Those funds are
16· ·not interchangeable.· Only those funds can be
17· ·used for those purposes.
18· · · · There are differences.· Again, the way
19· ·they are funded, and how consistent the funding
20· ·sources are.· That's going to be important as I
21· ·talk forward, and I'll make sure everybody
22· ·knows which one I'm talking about, so we can
23· ·make sure we keep the pot in the correct place.
24· · · · Current services, wastewater system,
25· ·again, this is paid for by your monthly bill
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·1· ·and clean and repair the existing wastewater
·2· ·system.· This is sewers that carry wastewater,
·3· ·not stormwater.· We make sure we're in
·4· ·compliance with environmental regulations and
·5· ·the biggest part of that program right now --
·6· ·thank you.· There we go.
·7· · · · The biggest part of the program now is
·8· ·major improvements.· In 2011, we entered an
·9· ·agreement with the Department of Justice, the
10· ·EPA, and the Coalition for the Environment,
11· ·like over 200 communities throughout the United
12· ·States have entered into, in order to meet the
13· ·Clean Water Act.· MSD has always been making
14· ·improvements since its creation to meet the
15· ·Clean Water Act.· This agreement however --
16· ·this strategy by the federal government, was to
17· ·set a date certain when you had to be
18· ·completely caught up.
19· · · · So, that's what the negotiations were
20· ·about as how fast do we have to do that.
21· ·Therefore, we have a plan -- right now, our
22· ·consent -- our agreement started in 2011. it's
23· ·scheduled to be completed in 2039.· It drives
24· ·everything we do on the capital program.
25· · · · Again, this is the wastewater side.· Over
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·1· ·the next four years, 98 percent of the
·2· ·improvements were either to meet the
·3· ·requirements of that or meet other
·4· ·environmental regulations such as the Clean Air
·5· ·Act.
·6· · · · There are only two percent that we're
·7· ·using for some kind of preventive maintenance.
·8· ·The biggest part of that cost is again through
·9· ·that agreement.· Where we stand right now, by
10· ·the end of next year, we'll have -- the program
11· ·right now is evaluated at $7.2 billion
12· ·into today's dollars, 2023.· You may have heard
13· ·we continuously update that number to bring it
14· ·to current dollars.
15· · · · So, right now, it's 7.2 billion.· As of
16· ·the end of next year, we'll have 3.1 billion
17· ·completed.· This next rate proposal, we'll do
18· ·1.7 billion.· That will put us over halfway
19· ·into the mark, and then we'll have an
20· ·additional 2.4 billion remaining in order to
21· ·complete the program by 2039.
22· · · · Stormwater is a little different.
23· ·Remember stormwater is funded through your
24· ·property taxes.· There's three services that
25· ·MSD is allowed to perform in stormwater.· One
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·1· ·is -- I'll go to the middle one there;
·2· ·compliance with environmental regulations.
·3· · · · Ever since MSD was created, there's been a
·4· ·two cent tax, a property tax, charged to
·5· ·individuals.· We serve as a regulator.· We
·6· ·issue permits, similar to a building
·7· ·permit-type process, in order to make sure we
·8· ·address the pollutants that are in stormwater
·9· ·runoff and pollute the creeks and streams.
10· ·That's currently funded and currently
11· ·operational.
12· · · · Cleaning and repair of the existing storm
13· ·sewers.· Now, remember, our service area is the
14· ·City of St. Louis and the County out to about
15· ·109 and Wildwood.· So, prior to 2016, there was
16· ·a limited amount of funding inside of 270 to
17· ·operate and maintain the stormwater sewers.
18· ·These are manholes, inlets, and storm sewers.
19· ·Outside 270, MSD was given those assets in 1989
20· ·with no funding.· So, we own the assets, but
21· ·there's funding to maintain those.
22· · · · In 2016, we went to the voters; that was
23· ·corrected.· The voters put in place a property
24· ·tax that allowed us to now operate and maintain
25· ·the storm sewers throughout the entire District
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·1· ·since 2016.· The final one is funding for new
·2· ·improvements primarily to address flooding and
·3· ·erosion that does not involve MSD-owned assets.
·4· · · · Again, the two big ones are flooding,
·5· ·especially now with the way we've gotten and
·6· ·how the rainstorms have changed over the 15
·7· ·years in the area.· Everybody, I'm sure, has
·8· ·experienced, I know you did last summer, the
·9· ·100 and 500-year storms that are coming through
10· ·the area and dumping a lot of water in a short
11· ·period of time and causing overland flooding in
12· ·the entire area.
13· · · · Another, so we obviously had flooding of a
14· ·more normal nature that we've been tracking
15· ·before that as well as erosion.· So, the best
16· ·example for erosion is Coldwater Creek up
17· ·north.
18· · · · Those homes are built and the banks of
19· ·that creek are such that you usually don't have
20· ·water coming out of Coldwater Creek, but you do
21· ·have enough water coming down that it's eroding
22· ·the creek, and in some cases, threatening the
23· ·homes adjacent to that, whether it's their
24· ·swimming pools, garage or homes threatening to
25· ·fall in, so that's the erosion part of what
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·1· ·we're trying to resolve.
·2· · · · There is no district-wide funding for
·3· ·that.· We're trying to get funding so MSD can
·4· ·participate.· Again, we aren't the floodplain
·5· ·mangers.· We don't own the floodplains.· We
·6· ·don't own the areas that flood.· We don't own
·7· ·the creeks where the erosion is occurring, but
·8· ·our charter does allow us in an area-wide
·9· ·fashion, regional fashion, to collect funds and
10· ·work with the various communities who also have
11· ·responsibility to get things done.· So, you
12· ·know, the last time we tried this was in 2019
13· ·to pass some funding, so MSD can participate in
14· ·this.· The voters voted it down 53 to 47.
15· · · · So, based on input from the voters, we're
16· ·going to try again.· We've learned a lot.
17· ·We've heard from the folks who did vote,
18· ·certain things and changes they thought we'd
19· ·make that would make it more attractive.· We
20· ·included those in that proposal, and I'll
21· ·present that to you this evening.
22· · · · Wastewater system, now, I'm back to what
23· ·you pay with your monthly bills.· Reduce
24· ·wastewater backups in the homes and overflows
25· ·into the environment.· That's the main purpose.
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·1· ·Those are both contrary to the Clean Water Act.
·2· ·Our St. Louis area had a place where the
·3· ·wastewater system, which only was supposed to
·4· ·carry wastewater, also stormwater was getting
·5· ·into it.· Kirkwood, Webster were good examples
·6· ·of where homes were built, the roof downspouts
·7· ·were not connected to the stormwater system
·8· ·when they were built, they were connected to
·9· ·the wastewater laterals.
10· · · · So, what's happening in the wastewater
11· ·system?· Every time there's any kind of
12· ·significant rain it was either flooding the
13· ·homes that had those connections or else
14· ·flooding their neighbors.
15· · · · There were also inlets that were connected
16· ·to the sanitary system instead of the
17· ·stormwater system.· The pipes had been in place
18· ·for a long time, they were leaking, and
19· ·groundwater was getting into them.· So, that
20· ·was what we wanted to correct.· Both of them to
21· ·stop during those type of storms.· Let's call
22· ·what the normal storms used to be 20 years ago,
23· ·take care of those, make sure that those
24· ·stopped having backups.
25· · · · The other thing to do with the heavier
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·1· ·storms was to try prevent basement backups,
·2· ·holes would be formed in the side of manholes
·3· ·next to creeks.· So, when water got into the
·4· ·system instead of getting high and going into
·5· ·homes, it would just get discharged into creeks
·6· ·during high river.· The idea, we think, at the
·7· ·time was it's better to have the creek when its
·8· ·full get some of this flow instead of the
·9· ·homes.
10· · · · Those are all illegal.· So one of our --
11· ·part of our big effort has been to make
12· ·improvements so that we can eliminate those
13· ·overflows that are intentionally directing
14· ·wastewater flows with stormwater in it
15· ·during -- to the creeks during high river.
16· · · · That will keep us in compliance with the
17· ·Clean Water Act.· That, on the wastewater side,
18· ·is what we have to get done by 2039.· The
19· ·methods we do it, we do do -- put some system
20· ·capacity in.· The biggest one is to get the
21· ·stormwater out of the system.· Whether that's
22· ·removing those downspouts I indicated, getting
23· ·rid of incorrect connections, taking care of or
24· ·else lining and improving the sewer system so
25· ·that groundwater and such doesn't get into the
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·1· ·wastewater system.
·2· · · · We're in a pretty good place there.· It
·3· ·was on the front part of our consent decree.
·4· ·I'll show you later, but we started with 230 in
·5· ·2011 of those holes in the system that
·6· ·discharge water to the creeks.· By the end of
·7· ·this year, we'll be down to 30, and that was
·8· ·the main focus on the front part of the consent
·9· ·decree, of the agreement on the wastewater
10· ·side.
11· · · · And I've kind of jumped the gun, but here
12· ·they are.· So, those separate system wastewater
13· ·overflows, we reduced them by 84 percent.
14· ·Again, we're down to about 30 by the end of
15· ·this year.· Building backups are down
16· ·25 percent.· For the type of rains we normally
17· ·consider when we started this program,
18· ·that would actually be quite a bit more.· With
19· ·the climate change impacts and what we're
20· ·seeing happening to the environment, it's one
21· ·thing to keep stormwater out of the wastewater
22· ·system, it's another when you get so much rain
23· ·you get complete overland flooding.
24· · · · Not only do homes, streets, and yards go
25· ·underwater, but the wastewater system goes
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·1· ·underwater as well.· So, that's causing
·2· ·additional basement backups, and that's
·3· ·something we've got to go -- move forward, and
·4· ·we also need to try and address during those --
·5· ·what used to be rare events and now seem to be
·6· ·pretty regular events affecting the area.
·7· · · · And, again, and on the wastewater system,
·8· ·this year we either completed or are in the
·9· ·process of completing 650 projects since we
10· ·started in 2011.
11· · · · What does the stormwater problems look
12· ·like?· Again, we keep collecting issues from
13· ·the residents.· That's where we find the
14· ·stormwater problems.· You can see on this chart
15· ·what the number of problems look like, what our
16· ·backlog was, these various time periods.· It
17· ·keeps going up.
18· · · · The main driver at the time was: there are
19· ·a few small areas where we had a little bit of
20· ·funding.· We would always get comments from
21· ·those.· Folks who were not in an area we had
22· ·any funding at all, they would simply stop
23· ·calling us because they knew MSD itself didn't
24· ·have -- wasn't any funds to address those
25· ·problems.
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·1· · · · So, the question is, what do we do with
·2· ·those, what do they look like?· Stormwater
·3· ·problems, again, there's two of them.· There's
·4· ·backyard flooding.· Sometimes the -- somebody
·5· ·has something to block it up.· Sometimes, right
·6· ·now, we're getting the heavier rains that are
·7· ·simply beyond the capacity of the natural or
·8· ·constructed systems and people are flooding.
·9· ·That's what we mean by stormwater flooding.
10· · · · And then erosion is something like this.
11· ·Folks who live along creeks and streams, that
12· ·extra flow that's coming through and a lot of
13· ·it's really accelerated with climate
14· ·change-type storms we've seen.· Simply, the
15· ·creeks are not up to hold -- handling that
16· ·amount of water for that period of time moving
17· ·that fast and eventually causes erosion.
18· · · · The problems, and again, I'm on the
19· ·stormwater side, by watershed.· So, on the
20· ·lower -- kind of the lower right hand, I guess
21· ·it's light pink on this, that's where most of
22· ·the problems are that we have identified.
23· ·There's 264.· That is also the area where the
24· ·small taxing districts are right now that we
25· ·get a little bit work of done.· We would expect
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·1· ·to have the most problems there.· But we -- if
·2· ·you take a look at the numbers, we are getting
·3· ·complaints on stormwater issues throughout the
·4· ·area, throughout our entire service area.
·5· · · · If you're looking at that map up to the
·6· ·north, is the Missouri River.· To the right, is
·7· ·the Mississippi River, the Meramec works its
·8· ·way along the bottom, and again, our boundary
·9· ·is on the far left; it's about Highway 109
10· ·that's running through Wildwood.
11· · · · So, the process, I'm not going to go
12· ·through this, Commissioner Stein went through
13· ·it, but we do have an independent rate
14· ·commission that takes a look at what MSD is
15· ·proposing.· That rate proposal and all the
16· ·proceedings are on our website, if you want to
17· ·see.· It is a trial-type process.· You'll see
18· ·testimony, cross-examination, exhibits; you can
19· ·see the entire process, as well as the rate
20· ·proposal itself.
21· · · · The schedule, this starts in 2023, on the
22· ·left-hand side, but I'm going to start in 2022.
23· ·So, the summer of 2022, MSD staff started
24· ·putting a rate proposal together.· Now, every
25· ·four years, we do a wastewater rate proposal
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·1· ·because we do our proposals in four-year
·2· ·buckets.· We go to the Rate Commission saying,
·3· ·this is what's got to be done these four years,
·4· ·and so we prepare that, come back to that, and
·5· ·come back to the voters to decide how to pay
·6· ·for it every four years.
·7· · · · Remember, by agreement, the work has to be
·8· ·done.· We have a federal judge watching us,
·9· ·making sure we get it done on their schedule.
10· ·We gave them that rate proposal in March of
11· ·this year, and they will complete it by
12· ·September, both the wastewater and stormwater
13· ·proposal.· When they're done in September,
14· ·they'll give it to our Board of Trustees.· Our
15· ·Board of Trustees will review the
16· ·recommendations of the Rate Commission, what
17· ·their recommendations are to staff's proposal,
18· ·and the Board will decide how to proceed.· That
19· ·will result in an election in April 2024.
20· · · · There will be two things that the
21· ·residents will be asked to do.· First of all,
22· ·and I'll go over this in detail later, on the
23· ·wastewater side, starting the summer of 2024,
24· ·there's one proposal that says if you want to
25· ·pay cash for that $1.7 billion worth of work
Page 25
·1· ·that starts for the next four years, here's
·2· ·what will happen to rates.
·3· · · · If you want to approve in this case an
·4· ·additional $750 million of bonding authority
·5· ·for MSD, something else will happen to the
·6· ·rates.· That is for those of you who paid
·7· ·attention, we've been coming to the customers
·8· ·every four years for about 15 years now
·9· ·offering them that option to tell us which way
10· ·they want us to pay for the program.
11· · · · Stormwater is a little bit different.· If
12· ·the voters vote no, we will just simply
13· ·maintain the existing system.· For a large part
14· ·of the District, there will be no funding and
15· ·for some -- a few small parts of the District,
16· ·there's a limited amount of funding that's from
17· ·some old taxes that were developed in the
18· ·1960s.
19· · · · If they vote yes, what we will do is we
20· ·will keep those old taxes in those small areas
21· ·in place through 2024, set them to zero and
22· ·starting in 2025, we will put in a
23· ·district-wide revenue source, I'm going to
24· ·describe later, that will collect about
25· ·$34 million a year to start addressing flooding
Page 26
·1· ·and an erosion throughout the entire District.
·2· · · · And next is what everybody came for.· So,
·3· ·I'm going to start with the stormwater rate
·4· ·proposal first.· Remember, this is the revenue
·5· ·that addresses the flooding.· The flooding this
·6· ·past summer, the flooding over Mother's Day,
·7· ·the last 15 years where we see little pop-up
·8· ·100 and 500-year storms in Chesterfield,
·9· ·Ballwin, North County, Kirkwood, South County,
10· ·City of St. Louis.· Those are the things we're
11· ·talking about.
12· · · · What we wanted to do is make it equitable
13· ·between the non-residential and residential
14· ·customers, how much revenue we collected.· So,
15· ·we measured the impervious area on those two
16· ·different types of customers.· Impervious area
17· ·being rooftops, driveways, sidewalks, things
18· ·where water don't soak in.
19· · · · We figured that would show us what
20· ·distribution of the revenue should be.· So,
21· ·based on that calculation, the residential
22· ·customers have about 57 percent of the
23· ·impervious area.· So, we set up a method to
24· ·collect 57 percent of the revenues from the
25· ·residential customers.
Page 27
·1· · · · Commercial customers are non-residential.
·2· ·Therefore, that 43 percent, they'll be
·3· ·collected in a different way, based on
·4· ·impervious area measurements of the
·5· ·non-residential properties.· You add them both
·6· ·together, you'll end up with $34 million a year
·7· ·in planned revenues if this passes the voters.
·8· · · · So, again, I explained there are two parts
·9· ·for the residential customer.· As we did in the
10· ·past, one of the things we've done with polling
11· ·is, if we were to put something in place
12· ·district-wide to address flooding and erosion,
13· ·which we don't have right, how much would folks
14· ·be willing to pay.· Based on surveying, and
15· ·this has been pretty consistent, the answer has
16· ·been $2 per month.
17· · · · So, what we've done is, we set a rate of
18· ·7.45 per $100 evaluation property tax that for
19· ·the median valued home in our service area,
20· ·about $176,000, the cost for the new program
21· ·would be $25 per year on your property tax
22· ·bill.
23· · · · For the nonresidential customers, again,
24· ·there's an impervious rate for them.· Through
25· ·aerial photography, we'll measure how
Page 28
·1· ·impervious area they have.· Per month, they
·2· ·will pay $1.05 per thousand square of
·3· ·impervious area, if this passes starting in
·4· ·2025.· And that will result in a collection of
·5· ·$34 million.
·6· · · · Now, there's something to keep in mind,
·7· ·and Kirkwood's a good place to have this
·8· ·discussion.· I mentioned a couple of times a
·9· ·few small taxing districts that exist
10· ·throughout the District.· They're legacy things
11· ·that were set up in the 1960s.· They're located
12· ·between 270 and the City of St. Louis
13· ·boundaries.· I think all of Kirkwood is
14· ·currently in one of those.· Right now, the
15· ·residents in Kirkwood, for a limited amount of
16· ·stormwater service, are paying a 6.6 cent
17· ·property tax.
18· · · · If this passes, and we institute the $7.45
19· ·property tax, that other tax will be set to
20· ·zero and you will not be paying that.· We're
21· ·exchanging one program for the other.· So, you
22· ·pay slightly -- a slight bit more, but then
23· ·we'll be collecting a much larger pot of money
24· ·to get more large projects done.· For the City
25· ·of Kirkwood, since I knew we were presenting
Page 29
·1· ·here tonight, I took a look and tried to find a
·2· ·good -- a good data point for people to
·3· ·reference, so if this passes, and you own a
·4· ·$500,000 home, the cost to you would be $10 per
·5· ·year on your property tax.· You're kind of
·6· ·exchanging one program for the other.
·7· · · · Now, we have a big part of the District
·8· ·that isn't in that situation, they'll be paying
·9· ·the full $25 per year per $176,000 assessed
10· ·evaluation of their property, but that's --
11· ·what I just explained is what it would look
12· ·like, specifically for Kirkwood.
13· · · · As far as what's the problem look like, we
14· ·have $700 million of problems before the big
15· ·storms starting last summer.· So, it's
16· ·obviously bigger than that.· Again, what we're
17· ·proposing will generate a revenue of
18· ·$34 million, really based on what the public
19· ·has told us they're willing to spend for an
20· ·annual program.
21· · · · Now, one of the things we changed besides
22· ·the way we bill is where we spend it.· So, the
23· ·proposal is to take 50 percent of the revenues,
24· ·MSD will do a priority system.· Right now in
25· ·those districts, we take a -- we do a
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·1· ·benefit-cost analysis.· We take a project and
·2· ·determine what the benefit points are.· How
·3· ·many homes are you saving, how many swimming
·4· ·pools, yards, how much of the yard, garages,
·5· ·fences, the whole thing.· So, we will total
·6· ·those as a benefit.
·7· · · · Below that will be the cost.· That will
·8· ·give us a benefit-cost analysis.· We will rank
·9· ·every known problem in the District's
10· ·boundaries.· We will simply start from the one
11· ·that has the highest benefit-cost ratio; we'll
12· ·start working our way down the list.· Those
13· ·list of projects are in our proposal.· We've
14· ·already identified over the next four years
15· ·what projects would get done if this rate
16· ·proposal passes.
17· · · · 30 percent of the program will go to
18· ·grants, to the initial municipalities based on
19· ·populations.· Right now, with those small
20· ·taxing districts, Kirkwood is participating in
21· ·that program now.· It gives us a chance to not
22· ·only go after the bigger stuff, the more
23· ·regional stuff that MSD sees, but allows a set
24· ·of revenues for the individual municipalities
25· ·to do their own prioritization.
Page 31
·1· · · · So, again, it will be based on population,
·2· ·and as long it involves stormwater, by whatever
·3· ·priority system the individual municipalities
·4· ·want to put in place, there will be 30 percent
·5· ·of the revenues based on population available
·6· ·to municipalities annually to address whatever
·7· ·stormwater problem they think is most
·8· ·important.
·9· · · · We've got 10 percent of the program going
10· ·to, using the federal term,
11· ·"environment-justice areas."· The State has a
12· ·different term having to do with low income
13· ·or -- I can't remember exactly what the State
14· ·term is, but the State provides mapping to us,
15· ·and we'll use it primarily during grant
16· ·applications to determine where the low income
17· ·or underserved individuals are in our area.
18· ·That map is in the rate proposal, but it's the
19· ·north part of the City of St. Louis, North
20· ·County moved to the west, and then there's an
21· ·area to the south of the City down in South
22· ·County.
23· · · · What we will do is we will take only the
24· ·projects in those areas, run them through the
25· ·same benefit-cost analysis, then we will simply
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·1· ·do whichever one ranks out first, we will do
·2· ·those, and we use 10 percent of the revenues
·3· ·towards that program.
·4· · · · The last one is for things that don't get
·5· ·covered or really need to get down in the area.
·6· ·So, we're saving 10 percent for a regional
·7· ·discussion on priorities and policy.· Right
·8· ·now, we have initial discussions to make sure
·9· ·there's a dialogue with the Municipal League,
10· ·that represents all the communities here, and
11· ·we would add the City of St. Louis in, we would
12· ·have those -- the 3 percent -- 10 percent of
13· ·those revenues would go towards should we be
14· ·doing something else, what should we be doing?
15· · · · So, if it's recent, and we've had some of
16· ·these storms, would it be a good idea to
17· ·provide a fund to start buying people out of
18· ·floodplains, which are flooding all time.
19· ·Maybe that's a good use of the money.· Should
20· ·we use it to enhance the program -- the grant
21· ·program to the municipalities?· Is that the
22· ·best place to put it?· Should it go towards
23· ·some kind of flooding insurance program? I
24· ·don't know what it will be.· The idea is to go
25· ·to the public, ask them what they think is the
Page 33
·1· ·best thing to do with those dollars.· The idea
·2· ·is to meet once one or every two years,
·3· ·whatever turns out to be appropriate, and to
·4· ·determine, based on a regional basis, kind of a
·5· ·policy decision, what are we missing that
·6· ·really needs to be addressed.· And then that
·7· ·would be the way we would spend those
·8· ·100 percent -- 100 percent of those stormwater
·9· ·revenues that we collect.
10· · · · Wastewater rate proposal.· Again, we're in
11· ·the midst of $7.2 billion program.· You have
12· ·heard some different numbers, and people
13· ·interpret it in different ways, we
14· ·intentionally report the cost of the program in
15· ·current dollars.
16· · · · When we sign this consent -- when we sign
17· ·this agreement in 2011, we used 2010 dollars.
18· ·The value of the program was $4.7 billion.
19· ·2021, we had the staff reevaluate it based on
20· ·2021 dollars.· It went to $6.1 billion.· That's
21· ·because of inflation.· You're bringing it up to
22· ·the current dollars.· After what we all
23· ·experienced in the last two to three years with
24· ·the economy, we knew there was a big jump prior
25· ·to doing this rate proposal, we revalued it
Page 34
·1· ·again.· Right now, it's evaluated at $7.2
·2· ·billion in 2023 dollars.
·3· · · · That doesn't mean the program is more
·4· ·expensive.· It doesn't mean something has gone
·5· ·wrong.· We are on budget, and we are on
·6· ·schedule to complete all the work.· But we just
·7· ·continuously revalue this process -- this
·8· ·project based on the current dollars.· That
·9· ·also gives a comparison of what got done.
10· ·Again, we know over the next four years, we'll
11· ·get past the halfway point, and we'll be about
12· ·halfway through the CD schedule.
13· · · · The question that's going to go in front
14· ·of the ratepayers is, how do want to pay for
15· ·$1.7 billion of new work over the next four
16· ·years, 2025 to 2028?· You can either pay for it
17· ·with cash, or you can agree to an additional
18· ·$750 million worth of bonding.
19· · · · It's, in many ways, what you would do if
20· ·you're going to buy a car -- a house.· So, if
21· ·you had to, like us, have to buy a house every
22· ·four years, you can either pay cash every time
23· ·you buy a new house and keep it, which we're
24· ·doing, or you can decide that you want to go
25· ·ahead and borrow the money and pay for it over
Page 35
·1· ·time.· One's cheaper upfront but you pay more
·2· ·money at the end, you know, but you take care
·3· ·of it.
·4· · · · The next chart I'm going to show you is,
·5· ·what that means.· It's also on the backside or
·6· ·one of the sides of the flier you have.
·7· ·There's a chart; that's what looks like this.
·8· ·And this is really the guts, the dollar guts of
·9· ·what we're going to present, what we're
10· ·offering.
11· · · · The left-hand side assumes that the voters
12· ·approve an additional $750 million worth of
13· ·bonding authority for projects to be started
14· ·between 2025 and 2028.· If the public says yes
15· ·to that, then in 2025, there will be a
16· ·7 percent increase; 2026, a 7.6 increase; 2027,
17· ·a 7.5 increase; and 2028, a 6.66 increase.· To
18· ·the right of those percentages, is the monthly
19· ·bill for the average MSD customer.
20· · · · There's a good chance that none of you are
21· ·an average MSD customer, but we put the dollars
22· ·up there.· The best thing you can do is take
23· ·what you currently pay monthly, apply those
24· ·percentages in your individual instance, and
25· ·you can see what the proposal would be --
Page 36
·1· ·happen to the rates on your monthly charges
·2· ·over the next four years.
·3· · · · The far right is if the public decides not
·4· ·to vote yes for additional bonding authority.
·5· ·Again, you're paying cash for the projects as
·6· ·they come online.· So, the first year would be
·7· ·a 35 percent increase in rates. Second year,
·8· ·another 35 percent.· Because the way the
·9· ·program works, the next year will be a
10· ·20 percent decrease in rates.· And then
11· ·finally, a 5 percent increase in the last year.
12· · · · And, again, we've taken on the far-right
13· ·side, what the monthly charge would be for the
14· ·average MSD customer.· Again, I would recommend
15· ·just simply taking whatever you pay monthly,
16· ·applying these percentages if you just want to
17· ·see what the impact is to you individually.
18· · · · There's some things I want to touch base
19· ·on here not showing up on the chart.· So, I am
20· ·talking these numbers are applicable to those
21· ·who's water gets metered, your water usage.· If
22· ·it does, we take the three winter months, and
23· ·we assume that's what water goes down in our --
24· ·into the sewers, and we charge it for the full
25· ·year.
Page 37
·1· · · · There are customers in the City of St.
·2· ·Louis that's not the way they are billed for
·3· ·water.· They are billed based on the attributes
·4· ·of the homes.· The number of water closets, the
·5· ·number of bedrooms, the number of living rooms,
·6· ·the number of different types of spaces.
·7· ·There's a charge applied by the water -- St.
·8· ·Louis City Water.
·9· · · · Per the Missouri Supreme Court, we have to
10· ·use water data to develop our charges.· So, we
11· ·take those attributes, we apply a flow to them,
12· ·and that's how we bill folks in the City,
13· ·residential customers who do not have a water
14· ·meter.· Now with that, what we do is we
15· ·occasionally check to see what our estimates of
16· ·water usage for those attributes, how accurate
17· ·are they.
18· · · · We did an exam -- we did a study this
19· ·year, we presented to the Rate Commission,
20· ·based on that study, what you see on -- I'm
21· ·just going to use the one on the left-hand side
22· ·with -- if the voters approve bonding, instead
23· ·of a 7 percent increase the first year, the
24· ·City of St. Louis will see a negative 0.08
25· ·decrease -- I guess 0.08 decrease the first
Page 38
·1· ·year, but then the raises in 2026, 2027 and
·2· ·2028 will occur.· We'll make the adjustments in
·3· ·the first year to bring them to the results
·4· ·that came out of the new study.
·5· · · · The second part is we do have a
·6· ·customer-assistance program.· For those
·7· ·households whose income is less than two times
·8· ·the poverty level, they can apply for that
·9· ·program.· They would pay one-half of the
10· ·calculated monthly charge for wastewater.
11· · · · For those who are defined as elderly like
12· ·me, if you are 62 or over, there is also a
13· ·program that sets that program at 2.5 times the
14· ·poverty level.· If you're below that number,
15· ·then you also will be able to -- you can make
16· ·an application -- you would pay half of the
17· ·monthly charge.
18· · · · So, I'm going to leave these contact names
19· ·up here as we move forward to questions.· But
20· ·Commissioner Stein, my presentation is done.
21· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you,
22· ·Mr. Hoelscher.· We're going to take just a
23· ·minute to reposition the podium here.· Thank
24· ·you.· Commissioner Clark, do you have any
25· ·questions?
Page 39
·1· · · · MR. CLARK:· No.
·2· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· All right.· In that
·3· ·case, Rate Commission staff, will you please
·4· ·announce those who have requested to speak?
·5· ·Those wishing to speak, please remember to
·6· ·state your name and address for the record and
·7· ·if you represent an organization.· So --
·8· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Mr. Stein, five members of
·9· ·the public signed up to speak this evening.
10· ·The first speaker is Ed Golterman.
11· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Mr. Golterman.
12· · · · ED GOLTERMAN:· Thank you.· Thank you,
13· ·Commissioners Jack and Bill.· I am not the five
14· ·generation Goltermans of Kirkwood.· I'm a
15· ·latecomer, kind of a usurper, and most of them
16· ·have moved out.· My name is Ed Golterman, 542
17· ·Wooddell Court, down off of Woodbine, if you're
18· ·familiar with that.· I walked up tonight
19· ·because Taulby Roach is killing our bus
20· ·transportation, so I'm a rather angry senior
21· ·citizens.· And I'll try to temper my anger.
22· ·Brian, is it?
23· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yes, sir.
24· · · · ED GOLTERMAN:· The work must be done.
25· ·That's easy for a judge to say.· But I'm saying
Page 40
·1· ·we're not paying for it.· And the other thing
·2· ·I'd like to -- and, again, to confirm, that
·3· ·some of the entertainment enterprises downtown
·4· ·pay no water bill.· Maybe you can look into
·5· ·that.· Places that were Kiel Auditorium and
·6· ·then the Opera House, I'm just wondering --
·7· ·please look into that, because probably, that
·8· ·would give you a good chunk of your
·9· ·$700 million.
10· · · · Elder abuse is alive and well in St. Louis
11· ·County, and I would like to have seen, you
12· ·know, a visual up here, elder abuse, and then
13· ·we talk about the financial and other very,
14· ·very painful continuing never ending sufferings
15· ·that various agencies put on senior citizen.
16· ·They don't seem to talk to each other much in
17· ·my estimation.
18· · · · I would -- another visual I'd like to see
19· ·is alternative funding.· You know, if all this
20· ·has to be done, I would like to see some
21· ·alternative funding that might even preclude a
22· ·five-to-one loss on your next election,
23· ·whenever that, you know, that might be.
24· · · · Did you go for Covid relief funds, like,
25· ·about 50 million?· They gave the Regional Art
Page 41
·1· ·Commissions 10 million to spread out among
·2· ·theaters and artists and museums.· Well, that's
·3· ·very nice, but this is -- this is critical
·4· ·stuff here.· So, I don't know that.· You can't
·5· ·answer me, but how about 50 million from the
·6· ·City?· The City is flooded with money.· I mean,
·7· ·they bragged a $200 million surplus.· You know,
·8· ·take 50 million from them.· This is pretty
·9· ·important.
10· · · · The Zoo museum tax.· County residents put
11· ·100 million a year every year into the zoos and
12· ·the museums who don't need our money.· They're
13· ·money processing machines.· They operate day
14· ·and night, so take half of that.· That would be
15· ·50 million.
16· · · · The Rams settlement money.· Now, don't
17· ·laugh, don't laugh.· The Rams settlement money;
18· ·it's sitting somewhere.· I would look into
19· ·that.· And then if you assess the last decade,
20· ·the money that the owners of the Blues made
21· ·from 2010 to 2019, the money that they made --
22· ·they admitted they made a profit of 300
23· ·million; it's closer to a billion.· And the
24· ·Sewer District did a lot of special work and
25· ·has done a lot of work for those sport
Page 42
·1· ·enterprises that now have, you know, come up to
·2· ·Jefferson Avenue and going north.· So, I think
·3· ·perhaps some of those billionaires could well
·4· ·kick in some money.
·5· · · · So, I'm suggesting that it is burdensome,
·6· ·burdensome to go to the public, especially
·7· ·senior citizens.· We are hit, you know, if you
·8· ·look at all the people that are taking money of
·9· ·personal property and real estate, and you go
10· ·to the store and you buy something, it's 10,
11· ·12, 14 percent.· For me, specifically, again, I
12· ·don't have a car, so I'm, you know, I'm a bit
13· ·restricted in how I can get around.· You all
14· ·have cars.
15· · · · I think my landlord will probably raise
16· ·my, you know, raise my rent if this, you know,
17· ·should go.· And then I have other problems to
18· ·deal with then.· Now, I speak for no one.· You
19· ·have one angry senior citizen right here.· This
20· ·citizen, I think, is going to have some
21· ·t-shirts made.· The work must be done, but
22· ·we're not paying for it.
23· · · · Now, I finished what I have to say.· I'm
24· ·open to back and forth at all.· Thank you, sir.
25· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you,
Page 43
·1· ·Mr. Golterman.
·2· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Chair, I got, I think,
·3· ·some answers to -- not to the comments but to
·4· ·the great questions if you would like for me to
·5· ·--
·6· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Yes, please do.
·7· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, these are the three
·8· ·I've picked up.· Understand that MSD is a
·9· ·separate municipal corporation formed by the
10· ·Missouri Constitution.· We are not part of the
11· ·City.· We are not part of the County.· So,
12· ·that's just the starting point I want to start
13· ·with.
14· · · · First of all, yes, we were eligible as our
15· ·special status for current -- for Covid
16· ·funding.· We took advantage of all that we
17· ·could, all Covid funding.· Mostly around costs
18· ·and expenses of Covid, so we did do that.
19· · · · Not the City or County, so understand that
20· ·the City and County are separate, just like.
21· ·Separate municipal entities from MSD, so if
22· ·they decided to assist, I guess that would be
23· ·good.· I, just in my opinion, I know they have
24· ·their issues, and that's never been offered,
25· ·and we're not, quite honestly, not looking for
Page 44
·1· ·it.
·2· · · · The big one was on special development.
·3· ·Understand that for MSD system, every time
·4· ·somebody develops, be that tear down a home and
·5· ·build a bigger one, put in a sports stadium,
·6· ·anything like that, they pay for all the
·7· ·infrastructure that's required for us to serve
·8· ·them.
·9· · · · This is in our charter.· Our charter
10· ·specifically keeps -- like, on the utilities,
11· ·we do not go out and put systems out for people
12· ·to hook into.· They have to build the systems
13· ·per our requirements and then once it's done,
14· ·then they have to turn those over to us for
15· ·operation and maintenance.· So, any time you
16· ·see a development happening, our ratepayers are
17· ·not paying for that.· That's being paid for by
18· ·the individual development, so those are the
19· ·three facts I pulled from your comments that I
20· ·thought I wanted to offer.
21· · · · UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:· Excuse me.· Did
22· ·they pay a MSD bill?· Those sports places?
23· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yes.· Yes, they do.
24· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Mr. Stein, the next speaker
25· ·is Ruth Anne Edwards.
Page 45
·1· · · · RUTH ANNE EDWARDS:· Thank you all for
·2· ·being here tonight.· I am a resident of the
·3· ·City, 5027 Winona, and my name is Ruth Anne
·4· ·Edwards.· At least you're listening to us.· The
·5· ·City just hiked our water bill incredibly, and
·6· ·they had no hearings.· They had no anything.
·7· ·They just did it.
·8· · · · And not only that, as I understand it, in
·9· ·there -- whoever is in charge of the water
10· ·department, can now raise the rates whenever
11· ·they want without asking anybody for anything.
12· ·And, so, I'm not just angry, I'm very scared.
13· ·I'm going to be 70 in August.· And the bills
14· ·keep going up.· And I make enough money that I
15· ·don't fit with the poverty rate schedules, but
16· ·I'm very concerned I'm going to wind up living
17· ·in a box out in the streets, because I just
18· ·don't have the money.
19· · · · I work with a financial planner, which
20· ·originally I was going to be able to retire at
21· ·70.· Then things went up, and it was 72.· Now,
22· ·we're talking 74.· Something was going to be
23· ·done by 2039.· I won't be alive in 2039.· And
24· ·if I live on the streets, I probably won't
25· ·survive very long.· But I don't know what to
Page 46
·1· ·do.
·2· · · · One of the questions I have is, when I go
·3· ·around, I see advertising for MSD, Inspire and
·4· ·Ameren, and all of those.· They're all
·5· ·monopolies.· Why are they paying so much for
·6· ·advertising?· It's not like you have a choice
·7· ·to go somewhere else.
·8· · · · So, couldn't some of that money be cut,
·9· ·and Mr. Golterman brought up the Rams. I
10· ·didn't hear anything from the Rams settlement
11· ·being used.· I have a question about that.· Not
12· ·to take money out of your pocket, but CEOs make
13· ·an awful lot of money, a whole lot more than I
14· ·do.· Do those salaries have to be incredibly
15· ·high?· Or is there a way just to exempt people
16· ·when they get to age 70 or 72, or freeze their
17· ·rates at what they were the last day they
18· ·worked?· And their rates stay that for the rest
19· ·of their lives?· It seems like that would be a
20· ·very fair way to do it.· You don't have to
21· ·reduce it, but do you have to increase it?
22· ·And, so, I guess those are my questions at this
23· ·point.· Thank you.
24· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you very much.
25· ·Mr. Hoelscher, did you get down all those
Page 47
·1· ·questions?
·2· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yes, I -- I have -- I have
·3· ·the comments.· I don't necessarily have any
·4· ·factual statements to go along with them,
·5· ·because she pretty much hit everything so --
·6· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Okay, thank you.
·7· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Mr. Stein, the third speaker
·8· ·is Susie Phillips.
·9· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· Do you have any way to
10· ·link in so I can show a video or no?· Is there
11· ·like any area where you can plug in?· Is that
12· ·possible?· Okay, I'll just pass my phone
13· ·around.
14· · · · My name is Susan Phillips.· I live at 514
15· ·and 531 Goethe or Goethe Avenue in Kirkwood I
16· ·bought 32 years ago.· I have a house next door
17· ·as well.· I pay approximately $24,000 a year in
18· ·taxes.· I have my home flooded continuously for
19· ·32 years.· I have gone on the news, on -- in
20· ·three newspapers.· I have tried everything I
21· ·can.· I have tried to work through this system.
22· · · · There have been three projects slated for
23· ·that corner, but they didn't have enough money,
24· ·and they needed to wait for a bond issue.· We
25· ·passed the bond issue, and yet again, no job
Page 48
·1· ·done.
·2· · · · So, what happens is the street floods.· It
·3· ·goes across my yard, and it floods around -- I
·4· ·don't even know, but hundreds of thousands of
·5· ·gallons of water into my two homes.· I've been
·6· ·trying to sell the house on the corner for two
·7· ·years in the highest market in history, and no
·8· ·one will buy the house.· Four bedroom, three
·9· ·bath for $400,000, because nobody wants a house
10· ·that has a swimming pool two times year for the
11· ·last 32 years.
12· · · · So, I'm going to send around so you guys
13· ·can see what I'm talking about.· It's not a
14· ·little bit of water.· It's a lot of water.· In
15· ·the latest flood, which was August 11th -- you
16· ·can see this and pass on.
17· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Okay.
18· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· August 11th, I had
19· ·flooding for five and a half hours in two
20· ·homes, and called MSD.· They did nothing. I
21· ·called the City of Kirkwood to try to get help.
22· ·Amir Zabota (sic) was helping me, when he was
23· ·unfortunately killed.· Other than that, I have
24· ·had no help from the City of Kirkwood.· I had
25· ·the engineer, is he here tonight, the city
Page 49
·1· ·engineer of Kirkwood.
·2· · · · I lost two cars in that flood that were
·3· ·not covered.· I didn't even get the measly
·4· ·$2,000 that theoretically they pay you for a
·5· ·loss.· They didn't even pay me for that.· They
·6· ·are shysters, and as you rightly picked out,
·7· ·there's no competition.
·8· · · · I live alone.· I work two jobs at
·9· ·68-years-old.· I make about 75,000, and I pay
10· ·$24,000 just in taxes and can get no help.
11· ·Zero help.· It's a sin.· It's horrible.· I have
12· ·to disclose this to anyone who looks at my
13· ·house.· I have to say, you're going to get up
14· ·to four feet of water in your home, and there's
15· ·nothing you can do about it.
16· · · · I've spent in 1998 and again, in 2007, I
17· ·replaced my entire driveway and garage because
18· ·it had been eroded by the water.· And it did
19· ·not help.· I have done everything.· I brought
20· ·in engineers from Washington University.
21· ·Nobody can figure out how to stop this, because
22· ·the street floods.· The sewers collapsed,
23· ·apparently, in 19- -- '89, '90.· They know
24· ·they're flooded; they know they're collapsed,
25· ·and they will not fix it.
Page 50
·1· · · · There's one sewer line.· If you know
·2· ·Essex; if you come down from all way before the
·3· ·high school to where the Magic Market is,
·4· ·there's two sewers right across the street from
·5· ·my house.· On the other side of the street, are
·6· ·all the houses of the 500 block.· There used to
·7· ·be a runoff there.· And in the '60s, they
·8· ·filled that in and built houses.· So, now, all
·9· ·of their water runs into the street, too.· It's
10· ·ridiculous.
11· · · · Everybody knows it happens.· The fire
12· ·chief, when I went to talk to him, he said, I
13· ·can't even get down your street it's so full;
14· ·it's so heavy.· I mean, I have video after
15· ·video after video since 1992 of this happening.
16· ·It's a sin.· It's terrible.
17· · · · And MSD has now used Covid that you can't
18· ·even get in anymore and speak to anyone.
19· ·You -- I know the person at the building
20· ·department by name.· You -- I tried to make
21· ·appointments with the engineering department.
22· ·The man I was dealing with died during this.
23· ·That's how long I've been dealing with this, a
24· ·man died.· I mean, it's Jim, whatever the last
25· ·name he had with a B.· He was a very nice man,
Page 51
·1· ·but he did nothing either.
·2· · · · So, my point is, you want more money, fix
·3· ·what the hell is wrong now and fix it for us --
·4· ·the people have been paying.· I bought my first
·5· ·house in 1997.· I am still paying for nothing.
·6· ·It's bull.· It's ridiculous.· Thank you.
·7· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you.
·8· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Chairman, if you don't
·9· ·mind, I'll correct -- give some facts If I can.
10· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Please -- please do.
11· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Okay.· So, this problem
12· ·has never been a question of funding -- of
13· ·bonding.· There isn't any bonding that MSD has
14· ·ever put out that would solve the problem
15· ·you're talking about.· It's a stormwater issue.
16· ·It's an issue --
17· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· They have three projects
18· ·on it with numbers.
19· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Sure, we have projects,
20· ·because as we tried in 2008 and got turned
21· ·down; 2019, and got turned down.· We make
22· ·projects because we identified problems, and
23· ·every time we think we're going to go -- in
24· ·2019, when we went to the public, we say here
25· ·are the list of projects.· I don't know if your
Page 52
·1· ·project was on it or not --
·2· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· I have a thing on my
·3· ·refrigerator saying there's absolutely no
·4· ·problem with my street.
·5· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, the sewers -- the
·6· ·sewers are working; they're not collapsed.
·7· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· They're not working.
·8· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Right, they're not
·9· ·collapsed.· They are working for -- for what
10· ·would be a normal storm.
11· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· They're collapsed.
12· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· You get -- you get the --
13· ·okay.
14· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· I had a file saying
15· ·they're collapsed.
16· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Okay.· That's what --
17· ·that -- your type of problem is what this would
18· ·fund.· We've never had a district-wide funding
19· ·source to address the problem you're talking
20· ·about.
21· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You told me the City of
22· ·Kirkwood has it; they haven't helped.· So,
23· ·evidently, they don't have the money you're
24· ·talking about.
25· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· They have a limited amount
Page 53
·1· ·of funding to address what's there -- again,
·2· ·I'm not the City of Kirkwood.· But that -- your
·3· ·type of problem that you're talking about, I'm
·4· ·very familiar with your site.· My son used to
·5· ·live near there.· You're right.· That area --
·6· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You can't even drive down
·7· ·the street.
·8· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Pardon me?
·9· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You can't even drive down
10· ·the street during rain.
11· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· True.· And I'm familiar
12· ·with what you're talking about.· That's the
13· ·type of the problem we're proposing, and this
14· ·is the fifth time we've tried to get this
15· ·funded.· We try to use state bonds.· The bonds
16· ·went away.· The State doesn't sell bonds.· The
17· ·Supreme Court stopped us.· The public voted no
18· ·in 2019.· We've trying now to get funding to
19· ·address those types of issues.· We've never had
20· ·funding for those.
21· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· Your building looks
22· ·beautiful.· You did a nice wastewater thing in
23· ·the whole front of your building.· You redid
24· ·that whole thing.· You could have used that
25· ·money to fix my --
Page 54
·1· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, that was a stormwater
·2· ·funding to meet specifically a con- -- an
·3· ·agreement with the federal government.· We
·4· ·spent that money in order to be able -- in
·5· ·order to not have to spend more later on.· No,
·6· ·that was -- those funding would not be
·7· ·available for the type of problem you're
·8· ·talking about.
·9· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You have no flooding in
10· ·front of your building, and you spent that
11· ·money to make it look pretty.
12· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· We put green
13· ·infrastructure in place in order to decrease
14· ·the pollutant runoff; that was one of the
15· ·requirements in our agreement.
16· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· Well, I have seven garage
17· ·doors in my house, and six garage doors at the
18· ·other house, two garages and two patios washed
19· ·away that nobody funded.
20· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Mr. Stein, the fourth speaker
21· ·is Michael Burton.
22· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Hi.· Thank you all for
23· ·being here, giving us this time.· And thank you
24· ·to the Metropolitan Sewer District for being
25· ·here.· My name is Michael Burton.· I'm the
Page 55
·1· ·state representative for District 92.· Most of
·2· ·my concerns and questions are going to be for
·3· ·the department, but I appreciate you all having
·4· ·this event.
·5· · · · I do want to address a few of the things
·6· ·that have been brought up here because I think
·7· ·they're so important, and I don't think that
·8· ·everybody is fully informed.· I heard the
·9· ·gentleman talk about, why can't we charge the
10· ·billionaires to pay for this stuff?
11· · · · And last year, the state legislature
12· ·passed a very large -- the largest tax cut rate
13· ·for the millionaires and billionaires in the
14· ·state, and the governor signed it.· And the
15· ·bottom third of income earners basically got
16· ·nothing.· I also have a bill that I proposed
17· ·called the Homestead Act, which would help with
18· ·property taxes.· We used to do it; it expired
19· ·in 2010, and unfortunately, the Missouri
20· ·legislature, the House, would not let that bill
21· ·be heard in committee.· So, there are solutions
22· ·out there.· And it depends who you have in
23· ·office and who's cutting taxes for
24· ·billionaires, and who's trying to get tax cuts
25· ·to senior citizens on fixed incomes.
Page 56
·1· · · · Some questions if you can write these
·2· ·down, I want to know if these monies are going
·3· ·to be used for mostly, in general, fixing
·4· ·current problems, or are we going to see a
·5· ·good -- and I know -- I have your layout here,
·6· ·but my one concern, I just want to double
·7· ·check, is that we're not going to be using this
·8· ·money to fund new spaces, new developments, to
·9· ·reduce possible flooding in the future from
10· ·new -- new places.
11· · · · We heard about the Covid relief, but what
12· ·about the infrastructure bill that President
13· ·Biden passed?· Is there any way we can use some
14· ·of that money, and something else everybody in
15· ·here should know, the State of Missouri is
16· ·currently sitting on $6 billion, just sitting
17· ·in the bank in Jefferson City.· It's the most
18· ·the State of Missouri has ever had in its
19· ·history.· So, the money is there.· But I'd like
20· ·to know about the infrastructure bill.
21· · · · Also to you all, you know, would you say
22· ·that one of the problems that you have is, a
23· ·developer wants to build someplace, and they
24· ·come in here for a rezoning for a housing
25· ·development or whatnot.· We have elected
Page 57
·1· ·officials that approve it, and pretty much the
·2· ·Metropolitan Sewer District just has to deal
·3· ·with whatever it is.· We heard where they build
·4· ·houses up on a hill, and now all that water
·5· ·runoff comes in.· That's true.· What can you
·6· ·all do about that if elected officials are just
·7· ·letting these plans go through, and how much
·8· ·input do you have when they're doing the
·9· ·rezoning?
10· · · · Another concern that I have is: it looks
11· ·like all these public hearings have happened in
12· ·incorporated places, and District 92, where I
13· ·represent, is unincorporated.· South St. Louis
14· ·County, we're not a low-income district.· We're
15· ·also not a very wealthy district.· We're kind
16· ·of in the middle, so I'm curious how much
17· ·unincorporated St. Louis County is going to get
18· ·paid attention to in this.· And I think that's
19· ·all I have.· Thank you very much.
20· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you.· Brian?
21· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yeah.· So, I think I have
22· ·all the questions.· So, none of the funding
23· ·goes to new places so they won't flood.
24· ·That -- where's -- oh, there you are.· So, as
25· ·we stated before, they have to take care of
Page 58
·1· ·those situations when they develop.
·2· · · · You're right.· The actual building,
·3· ·zoning, plant review, has to be done by the
·4· ·individual municipalities, except making -- we
·5· ·have full control.· We have rules and regs.· If
·6· ·they do that development, they cannot change
·7· ·the runoff pattern.· Since we've been in charge
·8· ·of it, they cannot change the runoff patterns
·9· ·or volumes coming off those developments.
10· · · · Whether it's the detention basins, green
11· ·infrastructure, some other kind of storage.
12· ·So, we're able to do that.· Now, we haven't
13· ·always been in charge.· A lot of things were in
14· ·place before MSD's creation.· MSD didn't take
15· ·over that particular part of the program until
16· ·1989, if you're outside of 270.· But since
17· ·those have been in place, MSD does have a
18· ·right, and we do those.· As a matter of fact,
19· ·if you're going to do something, and there's
20· ·excess flooding somewhere, we'll have you do
21· ·something extra.· That's put on the developer.
22· ·MSD does not have their ratepayers pay for
23· ·that.
24· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Can I ask one question?
25· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Sure.
Page 59
·1· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Have you ever given a
·2· ·recommendation to a city council or a county
·3· ·council that a development is a bad idea, in
·4· ·regards to what you all do, and they still --
·5· ·and the proposal go through?
·6· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, the way this works is,
·7· ·we can't tell them you can't do it there --
·8· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Or good idea or a bad
·9· ·idea?
10· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Our statement is, if you
11· ·do it there, here's what you got to do.
12· ·Sometimes that kills projects because it just
13· ·becomes too expensive.· So, we do have that
14· ·authority.· The one place it doesn't happen is,
15· ·as long as they do all the right stuff, we
16· ·can't keep municipalities from developing in
17· ·floodplains.· They have a way of doing that.
18· ·We put provisions in place, but we can't stop
19· ·that.
20· · · · As far as funding, being a special
21· ·district, there are different accesses to
22· ·funds, and everyone you've listed, we have
23· ·access to in some way.· Our biggest source of
24· ·funding, and there's something called the State
25· ·Revolving Fund, is a subsidized loan program
Page 60
·1· ·where 70 percent of the interest rate is
·2· ·subsidized by the Federal Government through
·3· ·the State.
·4· · · · We participate in that.· That happened
·5· ·before all the additional funding came through.
·6· ·The ARPA dollars -- there's also -- I'm sorry,
·7· ·a program called WIFIA, Water Infrastructure
·8· ·Financing Investment Act.· We can borrow money
·9· ·directly from the US Treasury at rates lower
10· ·than if we go out to the market.· Rarely, my
11· ·secretary treasurer is here, rarely do we
12· ·have -- most of our borrowing comes through
13· ·subsidized programs.· Rarely, do we go to the
14· ·market on our own.· That helps to decrease
15· ·costs.· That's what available to us.
16· · · · The ARPA funding was the next one on the
17· ·list.· The way the State set the program up, we
18· ·don't get block grants to municipality -- like
19· ·municipalities or counties do from the Federal
20· ·Government.· We go to the State; they set up
21· ·programs.· We recently were awarded $24 million
22· ·in ARPA funds to do some stormwater work up in
23· ·North County.· We're waiting -- that's
24· ·currently -- that's actually in place, and we
25· ·know one of the state senators up north tried
Page 61
·1· ·to get some work done, and that's currently
·2· ·sitting on the Governor's desk.
·3· · · · So, everything that's available to us and
·4· ·the methodology that's available, we go after.
·5· ·As far as the building -- Bipartisan
·6· ·Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction
·7· ·Act, there's dollars out there.· They're not
·8· ·really directed towards entities like us.· Some
·9· ·of the dollars have gone into that to buttress
10· ·the SRF Fund.
11· · · · So, as more money is available, we always
12· ·ask for more money than the State is willing to
13· ·give us.· They give us less, then by the end of
14· ·the year, they give us whatever is left over.
15· ·So, we take everything that they have
16· ·available.· And, so, that ends up -- since the
17· ·public, especially, has chosen to do bonding
18· ·ever since we started this program, there's a
19· ·big savings there.· I will give you when things
20· ·were good, we were paying 0.05 percent interest
21· ·rate out of our SRF Fund; it's all free money
22· ·expended over time.
23· · · · There are some things the building -- the
24· ·Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation
25· ·Reduction Act that kick in a little bit later.
Page 62
·1· ·We're sitting on the sidelines, talked to our
·2· ·partners; we know what the options are.· The
·3· ·State's notified us of those.· But since you're
·4· ·in state government, you know that.· I work for
·5· ·an organization, national organization, that
·6· ·lobbies the Federal Government and Congress to
·7· ·get this stuff done.· Invariably, we wait 18
·8· ·months before it finally gets to the State, and
·9· ·then we try inform our state reps, if we
10· ·possibly can, here's what's coming, here's what
11· ·it looks like.
12· · · · And, so, those type of monies are now
13· ·getting down to the state level, and we have
14· ·identified what places we can try to
15· ·participate in and will participate in to try
16· ·to get as much money as we can.
17· · · · The only other thing I want to add, about
18· ·15 years ago, we started a relationship with
19· ·the Corp of Engineers.· So, they are helping
20· ·with our combined sewer program, which is
21· ·mostly -- it's in the City of St. Louis in 20
22· ·square miles of the County.· And, so, they
23· ·change their mission so they can participate in
24· ·that, projects that they decide to do with, for
25· ·instance, their ARPA dollars, their BIL
Page 63
·1· ·dollars, those types of things.· They'll decide
·2· ·to do the projects.· If they do that, they then
·3· ·may pay for 75 percent of the costs of those
·4· ·projects.· That's been a very good
·5· ·relationship.
·6· · · · Right now, our authorization, and we've
·7· ·got it tagged, has been -- is $70 million over
·8· ·the past ten years.· So, that's been a pretty
·9· ·good program.· I'm probably missing them.· We
10· ·are tracking it all the time.· But we're taking
11· ·advantage.· The way us as a special district
12· ·can, we're taking advantage, every time we can,
13· ·of potential outside dollars.
14· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Okay.· And you brought up
15· ·something else that reminded me of something.
16· ·I saw that the Supreme Court recently
17· ·overturned the Clean Water Act.· I read
18· ·something about it.· And --
19· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Oh.
20· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· -- I would like to know
21· ·if you are still planning on adhering to the
22· ·current guidelines, or if you're going to start
23· ·not following the Clean Water Act --
24· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, what was currently
25· ·overturned is something that's been bounced
Page 64
·1· ·back like a ping pong ball for the last 20
·2· ·years.· It's what is defined as a water of the
·3· ·United States, and whether or not the Clean
·4· ·Water Act applies.· The way we do our
·5· ·discharges, nobody will say the Mississippi
·6· ·River is not a water of the US.· Or the Meramec
·7· ·River is not a water of the US.
·8· · · · So, as a rule, for the major part of the
·9· ·work we do, that doesn't -- that part does not
10· ·impact the way environmental regulations are
11· ·placed against us.· You asked two things real
12· ·quick: new development regs -- what was it?
13· ·Oh, you asked me something.
14· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· I think you already
15· ·answered it, actually.
16· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· You think I got it?· Okay.
17· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· I think you got
18· ·everything.
19· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Okay.· Thank you.
20· · · · MICHAEL BURTON:· Thank you.· Oh,
21· ·unincorporated in St. Louis --
22· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· And I'll leave that to the
23· ·Rate Commission.· He was asking about the
24· ·possibility of meetings in unincorporated South
25· ·County, was the other comment.· I'm not going
Page 65
·1· ·to respond to that so --
·2· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Yeah, if I may respond to
·3· ·that, Commissioner?
·4· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Please do.
·5· · · · MR. LACOMB:· This is the second-to-last of
·6· ·a first round of hearings.· There's a second
·7· ·round of hearings planned to begin in July 17th
·8· ·through August 7th, I believe it is.· Two of
·9· ·those meetings will be in an unincorporated
10· ·county.· One in north -- the North County
11· ·Recreation Center.· The second one will be down
12· ·in the Mehlville area.· There will be another
13· ·meeting down in the Fenton area as well.· And
14· ·we will publish those to our website in the
15· ·next week to ten days or so.· We're finalizing
16· ·dates and locations and logistics as we speak.
17· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Is there anyone that
18· ·wishes to speak that has already not done so?
19· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Excuse me, Mr. Stein, there
20· ·is one more speaker signed up.
21· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Oh, there's one.
22· ·Excuse me.
23· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Adora Elliot.
24· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· Hello, thanks for listening
25· ·to me tonight.· I'm Adora Elliot.· I live at 11
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·1· ·Wrenwood Court in Webster Groves.· And my
·2· ·question is more regarding stormwater
·3· ·management.· My property has been flooded
·4· ·numerous times when we have a heavy rain.· And
·5· ·I've been told -- I have Project Clear guys out
·6· ·there numerous times; and I've been told the
·7· ·system is functioning as designed.· And the
·8· ·landowner is responsible for providing a route
·9· ·for overland flooding.
10· · · · And I would like to know how that has been
11· ·determined, if anything by these rate increases
12· ·will address that situation, and what is
13· ·considered is a reasonable amount of stormwater
14· ·runoff, and how are we to provide this route
15· ·for the water?
16· · · · I -- I don't really understand that. I
17· ·don't know if that's anything that could be
18· ·answered here, if it's too specific, but how is
19· ·that going to be impacted by the rate increase,
20· ·or will it?
21· · · · I have suffered more than 25 percent
22· ·damage to the value of my home the very first
23· ·night I spent in it, I was flooded with three
24· ·and a half feet of water.· I no longer have a
25· ·finished basement.· All of my personal
Page 67
·1· ·belongings got destroyed.· My exterior
·2· ·landscaping was destroyed.· This happened
·3· ·several times since then.· And nobody is
·4· ·responsible because it's an act of God that
·5· ·made it rain so much.
·6· · · · And I was told I'm not in a floodplain. I
·7· ·don't have flood insurance.· How are people
·8· ·like me and Ms. Phillips supposed to deal with
·9· ·this, and why should we continue to have our
10· ·properties adversely impacted, but yet our
11· ·rates keep going up?· That's my question.
12· ·Thank you.
13· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you.
14· ·Mr. Hoelscher, would you like to respond?
15· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yeah.· So, our staff
16· ·responds to a lot of issues, so I'm going to
17· ·give you where they stand.· You're right.· The
18· ·system has been designed, since we're using the
19· ·term, 15, 20, 25-year storms.· They're set up
20· ·to match the natural systems in the area.
21· · · · So, they're set to -- that's kind -- when
22· ·they say a regular storm, there is not a system
23· ·here in the City, in the State, in the Country,
24· ·when you see on TV, or I'm older so I watch TV,
25· ·but whatever you see when you see all the
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·1· ·flooding going on, those systems are set up
·2· ·exactly the same way, and you get that kind of
·3· ·flooding.
·4· · · · So, I'm going to restate what our field
·5· ·staff have told you.· Will this program for the
·6· ·stormwater that we're talking about, will this
·7· ·address your kind of situation?· It will.· The
·8· ·plan right now is to raise $34 million a year,
·9· ·and we believe based on what we identified and
10· ·based on the public, there's about $700 million
11· ·of issues, so the spending is going to be
12· ·prioritized.· The situation you're explaining
13· ·can be addressed.
14· · · · Now, the way to address it, and this is
15· ·the hardest part of the discussion we've had
16· ·with certain individuals, the area is going to
17· ·have to have a discussion about whether homes
18· ·are where they should be to begin with.· If we
19· ·knew what we knew now, should there be a home
20· ·there?· And, so, one of the solutions, the
21· ·reason I'm saying this, one of the solutions in
22· ·a lot of places, and we do this with our
23· ·wastewater program; if we can possibly, on the
24· ·wastewater program, build facilities in folks
25· ·who are flooding or they're in flood- --
Page 69
·1· ·they're not mapped floodplains, because like in
·2· ·your case, because it's a smaller area but they
·3· ·still flood.· We try and build those facilities
·4· ·which can take that flooding in those areas and
·5· ·move people out.
·6· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· Part of the problem that
·7· ·causes this is increased building in the area.
·8· ·So, they're building larger homes.· Exactly
·9· ·like this gentleman said --
10· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yes.
11· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· They're building larger
12· ·homes.· They are increasing parking areas to
13· ·provide more services to businesses.· And that
14· ·is causing additional water to be --
15· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· And, Representative, that
16· ·was one of your other one points I was going to
17· ·address.· So, under MSD -- since MSD has been
18· ·in charge, and I'll address what it is right
19· ·now, if somebody does a redevelopment that
20· ·increases flows, we require them to put
21· ·revisions on the property that holds the flow
22· ·back; so, there's no more runoff at any one
23· ·time coming of their property then there would
24· ·of as if it was undeveloped.· So, that works
25· ·for new properties.
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·1· · · · A lot of the problem is just everything
·2· ·that's already there.· And, also, especially
·3· ·when we get -- there isn't anything that's
·4· ·built to handle a 500-year storm.· When you get
·5· ·a 500-year storm, which unfortunately we're
·6· ·seeing depending on where you live, we're
·7· ·seeing seven or eight small pop-ups or the
·8· ·entire service area happening a year.· They
·9· ·will cause the area to flood.
10· · · · So, we do have requirements to make sure
11· ·that occurs, that they don't increase flows
12· ·except in the most extreme events.· So, every
13· ·new development, the issue we really have is
14· ·there's an awful lot of development out there
15· ·that didn't have those kind of rules before MSD
16· ·took over or before MSD became responsible, and
17· ·they're sitting right through now.
18· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· This is traumatizing.
19· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Yeah.
20· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· Because if you've ever been
21· ·through a tornado, and you have no place to go
22· ·because you're flooded, it's terrifying.
23· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, we want -- and you're
24· ·right.· The problem is big.· The problem is
25· ·huge, and I -- a lot of impact.· We've been
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·1· ·trying.· I've been -- at least director of
·2· ·engineering since 2003.· This is the fourth
·3· ·time we've tried to provide some kind of
·4· ·funding.· This will be the fourth time.· We
·5· ·need a fund so we can start doing something and
·6· ·start resolving the issue.
·7· · · · For whatever reason, it's an item that can
·8· ·never quite get over the hump.· We want to do
·9· ·it this time.· I want to make sure I'm telling
10· ·you, though, I'm not saying your problem is
11· ·going to get resolved on year one.· Again, if
12· ·you want to see the issues we know about, that
13· ·are prioritized, they're in the rate proposal.
14· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· So, you're going to
15· ·prioritize the big issues first.· And I know
16· ·I'm going to be at the bottom because I am one
17· ·person.· And you're going to pick something
18· ·that takes care of 100 people.· You're never
19· ·going to get down to one person.· It's never
20· ·going to -- I'm never going --
21· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· You're right.· We do have
22· ·to prioritize the amount of money that comes in
23· ·--
24· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· What if the electricity
25· ·goes out, right?· They got to fix a transformer
Page 72
·1· ·first that is going to restore service to a
·2· ·hundred people, and the individual homes will
·3· ·be two weeks later.
·4· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· I don't know, and I think
·5· ·you understand this, we can't raise $700
·6· ·million today and start taking care of
·7· ·everything.· We do it -- there will -- you're
·8· ·absolutely right.· There will have to be
·9· ·prioritization, and we'll have to work our way
10· ·down the list.· That is true.· But we really
11· ·need to get started somewhere for everybody so
12· ·--
13· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· You need to understand my
14· ·point of view.
15· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· And I do understand it. I
16· ·really do.· We talk to folks in your situation
17· ·all the time, and we want to get something in
18· ·place that we can start taking care of it.
19· ·And, hopefully, leverage whatever other
20· ·resources that are available throughout the
21· ·area to really get people focused on this type
22· ·of issue and doing something about it.· But the
23· ·issue is going to be, and this is MSD's opinion
24· ·with having gone through this for -- I've been
25· ·through it for 25 years, there are places we
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·1· ·should not have homes.· That is really the best
·2· ·way to start.
·3· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You're welcome to buy --
·4· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Pardon me?
·5· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· You're welcome to buy my
·6· ·house; it's for sale --
·7· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· And -- and quite honestly,
·8· ·on the wastewater part, we do.· We don't have
·9· ·any stormwater dollars to do that right now.
10· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· I don't care -- I'll let
11· ·you make a cesspool out of it.· Just tear down
12· ·my 100-year old house and put down whatever you
13· ·want.· It's ridiculous.
14· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, that will be part of
15· ·the program, unfortunately, on a prioritized
16· ·basis.· If this program -- if this goes
17· ·through, we will be doing that.· That's got to
18· ·be part of the solution.
19· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· And are you going to pay
20· ·for value, or is it going to be the diminished
21· ·price --
22· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, MSD's process follows
23· ·the federal guidelines for reacquisition and
24· ·relocation.· So, what we will do is, what we do
25· ·throughout the program, we take the value of
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·1· ·the properties in the general area of similar
·2· ·size.· So, in other words, the fact that it's
·3· ·flooded does not impact the cost.
·4· · · · The whole point of the program is to give
·5· ·you the funds and the opportunity to move into
·6· ·an equivalent-type of housing as far as
·7· ·spacing, roof, that type of stuff and provide
·8· ·the funding for that.· Whenever it was flooded
·9· ·or not, doesn't matter.
10· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· What about the damage?
11· ·Like I had a finished basement.· Now, I don't.
12· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· So, we will provide the
13· ·funding that's available to provide the same
14· ·type of amenities at the price that's in the
15· ·area for you to be moving into equivalent
16· ·housing, whatever that is.· That's the price we
17· ·calculate --
18· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· Like my damaged home --
19· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Then so -- for your
20· ·damaged home -- well, no, not your damaged
21· ·home.· Your home with the type of -- not
22· ·damaged, but as though, it's not damaged, I
23· ·guess, is the way to put it.· MSD, what we do
24· ·is, when we have those properties, we tear them
25· ·down, leave it as a vacant property, do
Page 75
·1· ·something else to hold more water if we can,
·2· ·and then put an easement over top of it so
·3· ·nobody comes back and redevelops again and gets
·4· ·caught in that problem again.· So, in the
·5· ·places we can do it, that's what we do.· That
·6· ·would be the method we would go after these
·7· ·problems, starting at the top of the list, if
·8· ·we get this funding.
·9· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· The only nice thing is we
10· ·became friends over our mutual dislike of MSD,
11· ·so that's nice.
12· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· You can blame us for not
13· ·being successful giving the public to vote us a
14· ·rate.· That is our fault.
15· · · · SUSAN PHILLIPS:· Because they don't
16· ·believe you.· Just like I don't believe you.
17· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· Well --
18· · · · ADORA ELLIOT:· I think they need to see
19· ·the personal benefit.· There's --
20· · · · MR. HOELSCHER:· And it's hard -- I'll tell
21· ·you -- since you asked, and we're having this
22· ·discussion, that's one of the things we talk
23· ·about all the time.· It's hard to see the
24· ·personal benefit until there's funding to be
25· ·able to do a program to show you the personal
Page 76
·1· ·benefit.· This is not you.
·2· · · · When we started disconnecting people's
·3· ·downspouts, nobody wanted to touch it.· Then
·4· ·they saw what was going on, and people said,
·5· ·oh, that's great.· And everybody wanted us to
·6· ·disconnect their downspouts from their
·7· ·wastewater drains.· So, our experience has
·8· ·been, once we start the program and people see
·9· ·what it is, we can be successful.· You're
10· ·right.· We've never provided this.· Nobody
11· ·knows what it looks like.· We'd like to get
12· ·started.· That's it, Mr. Chairman.
13· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you,
14· ·Mr. Hoelscher.
15· · · · MR. LACOMB:· Commissioner, those are the
16· ·last speakers that have signed up.
17· · · · COMMISSIONER STEIN:· Thank you.· Is there
18· ·anyone else that wishes to speak that has not
19· ·already done so?· The next public hearing is
20· ·scheduled for Thursday, June 29th, I believe
21· ·that's tomorrow, at 7:00 p.m.· The hearing will
22· ·be held at the Council Chamber at the City of
23· ·Chesterfield City Hall.· The address for
24· ·Chesterfield City Hall is 690 Chesterfield
25· ·Parkway West, Chesterfield, Missouri 63017.
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·1· ·This public hearing is adjourned.· Thank you
·2· ·all.
·3· ·(Ending time of the hearing : 08:23 p.m.)
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·1· · · · I, Colin Wallis, in and for the State of
·2· ·Missouri do hereby certify that the witness
·3· ·whose testimony appears in the foregoing
·4· ·Examination Under Oath was duly sworn by me;
·5· ·that the testimony of the said witness was
·6· ·taken by me to the best of my ability and
·7· ·thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
·8· ·direction; that I am neither counsel for,
·9· ·related to, nor employed by any of the parties
10· ·to the action in which this examination was
11· ·taken, and further that I am not relative or
12· ·employee of any attorney or counsel employed by
13· ·the parties thereto, nor financially or
14· ·otherwise interested in the outcome of the
15· ·action.
16· · · · ______________________
17· · · within and for the State of Missouri
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